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View Full Version : It might soon be illegal to swear at a cop in Montreal



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elipson
3rd February 09, 10:28 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2009/01/26/mtl-policeinsults0126.html

This pisses me off to no fricken end. No way in hell it will survive a supreme court challenge.

I feel very strongly that the right to swear at a cop is rightfully protected under the freedom of speach and see no reason why it sohuld not be protected speach.

Dark Helmet
3rd February 09, 11:35 PM
just so I can get an understanding of this . Is it illegal anywhere in the North America or the rest of civilized planet to swear at a cop?

WarPhalange
3rd February 09, 11:38 PM
No, but that doesn't mean you won't get your ass kicked for it.

yioHCL7uKYs

Tanhalen21
3rd February 09, 11:40 PM
Cue Equipoise explaining why swearing at a cop prevents them from doing their job efficiently and subsequently why this is a good law

WarPhalange
3rd February 09, 11:43 PM
The earonomics of the cop get interfered and he can't hear women getting raped and drugs getting sold.


Duh.

HappyOldGuy
4th February 09, 12:55 AM
It depends if you're swearing in French or English.

Geijhan
4th February 09, 01:30 AM
just so I can get an understanding of this . Is it illegal anywhere in the North America or the rest of civilized planet to swear at a cop?

It'll get you fined in Belgium for 'contempt' (if they're feeling ornery, they can lay that on you for calling them 'flikken' (cops) as opposed to police officers.) and as far as I know, it's the same in our neighbour states.

WarPhalange
4th February 09, 01:33 AM
Aww man, after making friends with this Belgian guy over the summer I was starting to think it was a cool place. Shame.

lant3rn
4th February 09, 01:51 AM
It depends if you're swearing in French or English.

Tabernack!!!!

elipson
4th February 09, 01:54 AM
I think its illegal to swear at cops in North Korea, Iran, Suadi Arabia, Zimbabwe, and soon Montreal.

Tanhalen21
4th February 09, 01:55 AM
Suckmycack!

Sartori
4th February 09, 01:57 AM
don't taze me, bro

elipson
4th February 09, 02:29 AM
No speak english!
*Zap*

Yiktin Voxbane
4th February 09, 03:24 AM
If it is ones right to swear .... does not one ALSO have the right, to not be sworn at ?

Truculent Sheep
4th February 09, 03:30 AM
I feel very strongly that the right to swear at a cop is rightfully protected under the freedom of speach and see no reason why it sohuld not be protected speach.

Indeed. It's all a display of macho (macha?) dick-swinging by people with too much power already. If a burly 6'2 man with a truncheon, a taser, a stab-proof vest and, increasingly, a gun only has to cope with being told that All Coppers Are Bastards, then frankly I can't see what the problem is. It's a ruse to dodge the growing alienation between many police forces and the public who, effectively, pay their wages.

Full disclosure - my views are coloured by living under the Metropolitan Police in London who are, for the most part, both shit and shits. Same with Thames Valley and Hamsphire Constabularies, who are f'king useless too.

Yiktin Voxbane
4th February 09, 03:33 AM
Full disclosure - my views are coloured by living under the Metropolitan Police in London who are, for the most part, both shit and shits. Same with Thames Valley and Hamsphire Constabularies, who are f'king useless too.

My advice would be to move to Sunhill .... Not a bad spot since DI Burnside moved on .

Truculent Sheep
4th February 09, 03:38 AM
Actually I'm working on the Time Travel/Shifting Between Spheres principle - DCI Gene Hunt will be MY BFF!!!

Yiktin Voxbane
4th February 09, 03:41 AM
U m4dE mE LOL on a mollecular level .....

Steve
4th February 09, 04:08 AM
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2009/01/26/mtl-policeinsults0126.html

This pisses me off to no fricken end. No way in hell it will survive a supreme court challenge.

I feel very strongly that the right to swear at a cop is rightfully protected under the freedom of speach and see no reason why it sohuld not be protected speach.

In this world's economy I suppose that is a new way for the police department to make money. I don't think they would take you to jail for this, but a fine (read ticket) is another thing.

3moose1
4th February 09, 06:35 AM
well, I mean, they are French-Canadians, so i wouldn't worry about it too much.


Thats right, FUCK YOU France, and FUCK YOU, most of quebec.

Das Moose
4th February 09, 06:42 AM
No, but that doesn't mean you won't get your ass kicked for it.

yioHCL7uKYs


Is that real?

Equipoise
4th February 09, 07:00 AM
While I'd love to cite/arrest somebody for saying "F you" to me, I can't unless they draw a crowd by flipping out, interfere with an investigation or do it in front of kids/women.

I've been cursed at a lot. I just generally smile and say "Drive safely" or "Have a nice day."

As for it preventing me from doing my job, no it doesn't. It's just irritating. But that's okay you get the last word, I get the last action.

Honestly I don't understand why the lot of you get your panties in a knot about this. Why would you curse at an officer anyway? Because you can? Where's the logic? Why take the risk of getting arrested, getting endless citations, etc just because you want the last word? Do you really want to run the risk of dealing with an incident in the video above? (which is a fake btw)

GuiltySpark
4th February 09, 07:04 AM
Video looks fake to me. Seems scripted.

I think someone going up and getting in an LEOs fae telling them to fuck off etc.. should be fined. It's being hostile, police dont need to deal with that shit while their carrying out their duty.

I wish I had dollar for every time some stupid cocksucker came up to me while I was in uniform and decided to voice their stupid ignorant opinions like I gave a shit wha they thought about americans in iraq or bush or gitmo bay.

FUCK YOU BABY KILLER!
You know what asshole Canadians werent even IN vietnam where that fucking phrase was coined.

Sorry I dont think cops need to deal with that bullshit from joe dumbass blow.

You go up to someone in a bar and try that shit and they'll thump you.

sochin101
4th February 09, 08:52 AM
I think over here it's discretionary... the police can ignore it, or pull the all-encompassing 'breach of the peace' card.

Often, like with so many other things, it's a way for the police to search/run your details for warrants etc.

My personal opinion is: I don't think people have the right to abuse me when I'm doing my job, so I sure as hell don't see why the police, the armed forces, emergency services etc should have to put up with it.

WarPhalange
4th February 09, 01:33 PM
Does "Yo momma dresses yo ass funny, mutha fucka" count as hostile swearing?

WarPhalange
4th February 09, 01:38 PM
No, I meant his momma.

http://www.lvhrd.org/wp-content/images/575x350/20080212_042935.png

WarPhalange
4th February 09, 01:50 PM
Okay, nevermind. Now I mean your momma.

Cullion
4th February 09, 02:49 PM
It would be illegal in the UK.

Cullion
4th February 09, 02:54 PM
The queen mother? She has terrible taste in clothes. And tea. We had to dump it before it reached land. You hear that Brits!!?!? It wasn't about taxation without representation, it was about your awful fricking tea! Earl Grey my a$$. Let's add some mystery oil to a perfectly good black tea. WTF.

Nobody in the west had heard of 'Earl Grey' tea during your revolution.
The Earl in question wasn't even born until 1764.

Robot Jesus
4th February 09, 02:56 PM
Honestly I don't understand why the lot of you get your panties in a knot about this. Why would you curse at an officer anyway? Because you can? Where's the logic? Why take the risk of getting arrested, getting endless citations, etc just because you want the last word? Do you really want to run the risk of dealing with an incident in the video above? (which is a fake btw)

I don't want to pierce my dick or get artistic scarring on my back depicting the thundergod Thor, but for someone to tell me I can't disturbs me a little.

Zendetta
4th February 09, 04:01 PM
Earl Grey my a$$. Let's add some mystery oil to a perfectly good black tea. WTF.

So you are as woefully ignorant of the msyteries of tea as you are spirits. Good grief, man.

The touch of citrus in the bergamot oil brings a good black tea to the level of sublime. I like mine with a touch of honey and a spot of organic half-and-half.

Earl Grey tea is pretty much the jewel in the crown of British cultural supremacy.

lant3rn
4th February 09, 04:38 PM
I just started drinking tea. Earl Grey tastes like liquified campfire smoke. Green Tea is not much better. I like the berry teas that taste like hot koolaid.

Is pink your favorite colour? Do you have trouble deciding what lipstick to wear in the morning? Can you suck a golfball through a garden hose?

God man
/facepalm

Now lets hear your war cry..

Yiktin Voxbane
4th February 09, 06:14 PM
Faaaaaaaabulous ?

Sun Wukong
4th February 09, 06:34 PM
Video looks fake to me. Seems scripted.

I think someone going up and getting in an LEOs fae telling them to fuck off etc.. should be fined. It's being hostile, police dont need to deal with that shit while their carrying out their duty.

I wish I had dollar for every time some stupid cocksucker came up to me while I was in uniform and decided to voice their stupid ignorant opinions like I gave a shit wha they thought about americans in iraq or bush or gitmo bay.

FUCK YOU BABY KILLER!
You know what asshole Canadians werent even IN vietnam where that fucking phrase was coined.

Sorry I dont think cops need to deal with that bullshit from joe dumbass blow.

You go up to someone in a bar and try that shit and they'll thump you.

Do people actually say that shit to you? See, those are bandwagon jumping idiots right there. That is some bullshit man, you deserve better. WTF do they think you can do about any of that shit. Soldiers do what they are told, that's your whole job. There's a modicrum of descrimination for a soldier, but with the shit dumped on you already what do they fucking expect you to do?

Well, that's some silly shit right there man.

HappyOldGuy
4th February 09, 06:41 PM
They were probably upset about the poor baby soft lumbers.

Murderers!

Cullion
4th February 09, 06:50 PM
I don't know if I will ever be able to develop a taste for beer or non-sweet teas.

The Japanese learned to love coffee by having it marketed to them as a dessert/ice cream flavour for years first.

You don't have to develop a taste for anything of course.

Given what you've said about the stuff you like, you like to try fruit beers like Fruili or the Belgian Mort Subite.

Phrost
5th February 09, 11:19 AM
That video is fake. Besides, cops don't generally walk around wielding their batons.

Score another win for "Liberal" Democracy.

TheLordHumungus
5th February 09, 05:33 PM
Honestly I don't understand why the lot of you get your panties in a knot about this. Why would you curse at an officer anyway? Because you can? Where's the logic? Why take the risk of getting arrested, getting endless citations, etc just because you want the last word? Do you really want to run the risk of dealing with an incident in the video above? (which is a fake btw)

Why can't you fucks learn your place? When an officer tells you to obey his orders and like it, he expects you to do both. Swearing at him might make him think you don't enjoy being treated like a lesser person. Where's the fun in acting like you're doing the average person a favor, if they constantly tell you to piss off.


I think over here it's discretionary... the police can ignore it, or pull the all-encompassing 'breach of the peace' card.

Often, like with so many other things, it's a way for the police to search/run your details for warrants etc.

My personal opinion is: I don't think people have the right to abuse me when I'm doing my job, so I sure as hell don't see why the police, the armed forces, emergency services etc should have to put up with it.

Well you are subjects rather than citizens ;)

What's your job? If it involves intimidating, brutalizing, or possibly killing ppl, then you have to understand that those you're messing with are probably not thrilled about what you do. I get sworn at in my job all the time, but never thought their should be legislation restricting it.

sochin101
5th February 09, 06:01 PM
Well you are subjects rather than citizens ;) That's a state of mind. Royalty are little more than tourist attractions.



What's your job? If it involves intimidating, brutalizing, or possibly killing ppl, then you have to understand that those you're messing with are probably not thrilled about what you do. I get sworn at in my job all the time, but never thought their should be legislation restricting it.
I deal with the public.
I deal with a public that is often wrong, upset and assume that the word 'no' is an attack on their integrity and a denial of their chosen lifestyle.
I deal with a public that understands their rights, but not mine.

I don't think it's appropriate to swear at anyone doing their job in the same way I don't believe it's appropriate to cuss out a McDonalds employee who gets an order wrong. Or a bouncer that won't let you in a club. Or a nurse that makes a clumsy attempt to find a vein.
Anyone who does that sort of thing is an asshole on a power trip, because they know that the person in the uniform/behind the counter/wearing the name-tag isn't allowed to retaliate.

And just cussing at a cop because your rights say you can is cowardly and a gross misuse of the much-vaunted freedom of speech.

sochin101
5th February 09, 06:02 PM
That video is fake. Besides, cops don't generally walk around wielding their batons.
Maybe they should.
That would stop people thinking it's lulzeriffic to call them names.

Cullion
5th February 09, 06:06 PM
You have to understand that in some parts of the world, the police are a massively outnumbered paramilitary force with their tactics and firepower hugely limited by civil rights legislation, so they kind of rely on uniforms and other methods of inducing psychological subservience to allow them to do their job of keeping civil order.

Laws like this exist to allow them to keep a kind of psycho-social 'dominance edge' over people who might otherwise see them as just another gang that didn't have all that much firepower available and was also hamstrung by a bunch of extra rules imposed by people who had no idea what their job really involved.

I've talked before about a kind of 'golden era' of British civil rights and policing that seems unthinkable now.

No electronic surveillance.

Police all but forbidden to have guns whilst the population were mostly allowed them.

Police did individual, unarmed, foot patrols on a beat they got to know for years, and a high percentage of the population were totally supportive and trusting.

How did this work?

1) The general population were educated from an early age in an _extremely_ disciplinarian school system. Respect for elders and authority figures was beaten into kids where deemed necessary. The quid-pro-quo was that police officers were polite people who if you troubled them to ask the time, or ask for directions, were only too happy to help.

2) Police officers were mostly tall, strongly built men who'd been through a reasonable medical and physical exam to get into the service. A lot of them were armed-forces veterans. They were the kind of people who can project authority without needing to brandish a weapon or freak out.

3) The law was in many ways more liberal (once you were out of school). Police officers weren't there to collect taxes via minor traffic infractions or investigate you for making an un-PC joke. They were there to deter burglars from trying their luck whilst you were out at work, and catch muggers etc..

3) The bond of trust and consent built between the police and the policed by the aforesaid measures meant that most of the populace saw the police as loyal public servants deserving of respect. They didn't just 'do as told', most people would go out of their way to help a police officer needing assistance. Despite the fact that they were more than likely in posession of a firearm and the police officer wasn't. It wasn't the sort of respect that was based on fear.

Equipoise
5th February 09, 10:06 PM
Why can't you fucks learn your place? When an officer tells you to obey his orders and like it, he expects you to do both. Swearing at him might make him think you don't enjoy being treated like a lesser person. Where's the fun in acting like you're doing the average person a favor, if they constantly tell you to piss off.

No, I expect you to follow my orders once given. You can think whatever you want about them, but be civil about it. If you want to act the fool, you can go to the pokey with the other morons.

As it's already been said, if you act like an hardass because you know that you're safe from me beating the shit out of you due to my lawful obligation not to, then you're spineless ninny.

HappyOldGuy
5th February 09, 10:32 PM
As it's already been said, if you act like an hardass because you know that you're safe from me beating the shit out of you due to my lawful obligation not to, then you're spineless ninny.

What if I act like a hardass because you are on the other side of the country?

3moose1
6th February 09, 12:14 AM
I actually really like cops, they've always been nice, and hell, my dad was even a Cop.


Equipose seems like that, "I abuse my power to make up for my shortcomings, OH LOOK I HAS A TAZER" cop that gives the rest of them a bad rap.


But in a good way.

elipson
6th February 09, 01:02 AM
I like cops too. Many of my friends are becoming/have become cops and I might be a cop someday too.

But fuck that shit. People swearing at you is part of the job. Suck it up.

TheLordHumungus
6th February 09, 02:41 AM
It wasn't the sort of respect that was based on fear.

That about says it all. I don't think respect can be based on fear. Maybe I just don't understand the term properly.


No, I expect you to follow my orders once given. You can think whatever you want about them, but be civil about it. If you want to act the fool, you can go to the pokey with the other morons.

As it's already been said, if you act like an hardass because you know that you're safe from me beating the shit out of you due to my lawful obligation not to, then you're spineless ninny.
What if you act like a hardass because you're armed to the teeth and have backup waiting. Does that make you a spineless ninny as well?

Besides, it's against the law for anyone to punch some asshole who told them to fuck themselves. So maybe swearing at anybody shoud be illegal.

TheLordHumungus
6th February 09, 02:43 AM
That's a state of mind. Royalty are little more than tourist attractions.
Yeah, it's just funny to us yanks.

Neildo
6th February 09, 03:00 AM
Honestly I don't understand why the lot of you get your panties in a knot about this. Why would you curse at an officer anyway? Because you can? Where's the logic? Why take the risk of getting arrested, getting endless citations, etc just because you want the last word? Do you really want to run the risk of dealing with an incident in the video above? (which is a fake btw)

Totally agree. I would never swear at a cop, because i'm usually holding. how stupid would that be.

i bet a lot of people still do it. stupid fucks.

GuiltySpark
6th February 09, 03:04 AM
That's a state of mind. Royalty are little more than tourist attractions.



I deal with the public.
I deal with a public that is often wrong, upset and assume that the word 'no' is an attack on their integrity and a denial of their chosen lifestyle.
I deal with a public that understands their rights, but not mine.

I don't think it's appropriate to swear at anyone doing their job in the same way I don't believe it's appropriate to cuss out a McDonalds employee who gets an order wrong. Or a bouncer that won't let you in a club. Or a nurse that makes a clumsy attempt to find a vein.
Anyone who does that sort of thing is an asshole on a power trip, because they know that the person in the uniform/behind the counter/wearing the name-tag isn't allowed to retaliate.

And just cussing at a cop because your rights say you can is cowardly and a gross misuse of the much-vaunted freedom of speech.
Good fucking post man. Well said.

I don't think those examples are appropriate either. Bouncers are doing their job, as is the mcdicks kid as is the nurse. Gtting in someones face being an asshole makes their job harder.
People would think twice if they understood how expensive their 'freedom of speech' was.



Do people actually say that shit to you? .
Oh ya. People see a uniform and feel it's in their lanes to go up to you and vent whatever stupid frustrations they have.
Don't like the government, go bitch out a soldier.
I've had a stunned cunt come up to me in the grocery store and tell me Canada has to get out of Iraq and I should refuse to be sent to Iraq and become a murderer.
I won't even point out Canada ISN'T in Iraq. If your bored go take a look at rabble.ca It's a hardcore leftwing Canadian properganda forum. Basically all soldiers are murderers, all police officers are thugs who go around killing native americans, North America would be better off with no military and half the police officers. All americans are stupid religious thugs. We should give millions of dollars to the freedom fighters in Gitmobay.( Actually you might get banned for saying native american, it's first nations persons.) Hard core femminisim and anti-male, anti-white theme too. Basically if you're white your a racist.

But ya back to your question I hear shit like that all the time.
I used to be shy about it and embarassed and wouldnt say anything or defend myself, afraid of getting in shit from my bosses. Now I'm just anasshole right back.
"You know if you stopped pigging out on fast food and went to the gym they have TVs infront of the tredmills there. If you go you might just catch the news and discover for yourself that we aren't even in Iraq, have a good day ma'am. Oh by the way go to summit because physical limits has shitty equipment"

GuiltySpark
6th February 09, 03:08 AM
What if you act like a hardass because you're armed to the teeth and have backup waiting. Does that make you a spineless ninny as well?

100%

TheLordHumungus
6th February 09, 03:56 AM
100%

Oh, okay. Not the answer I was expecting, but thanks all the same.

I should behave though, I'll be in Montreal in about a week. If I get arrested on vacation for calling a pig a "pig", my whole trip might be ruined.

Truculent Sheep
6th February 09, 04:12 AM
One thing to remember, at least in a British context, is the principle of 'Policing Through Consent' - which is to say, the rozzers would originally only police with public approval.

This has changed for the worst in recent years - police actively controlling the public, spying on them, either over-reacting or not acting at all, acting more like revenue collectors and state bruisers than public servants, abusing their powers and so on. Police aren't even recruited from their local communities any more - they are outsiders, not just in background but in the sense that they are a seperate tribe and culture from the public they are meant to serve and protect.

There is a trend towards ever greater powers (and authority) for the police, but also a corresponding growth in alienation and disdain on the part of the public. It's a downward spiral and I'm not sure this proposal will help matters, not if Montreal's Police are as fucked up as the UK's lot anyway.

SFGOON
6th February 09, 04:15 AM
"Pig" is not a swear. Shit, fuck, cunt, damn, hell, cocksucker, and piss could be construed as such. Also, since you'll be in FranceCanada don't say MHERHDH.

If they give you a hard time, just remind them that you're an American, and make sure they know you know your rights.

Cullion
6th February 09, 04:53 AM
One thing to remember, at least in a British context, is the principle of 'Policing Through Consent' - which is to say, the rozzers would originally only police with public approval.

This has changed for the worst in recent years - police actively controlling the public, spying on them, either over-reacting or not acting at all, acting more like revenue collectors and state bruisers than public servants, abusing their powers and so on. Police aren't even recruited from their local communities any more - they are outsiders, not just in background but in the sense that they are a seperate tribe and culture from the public they are meant to serve and protect.

There is a trend towards ever greater powers (and authority) for the police, but also a corresponding growth in alienation and disdain on the part of the public. It's a downward spiral and I'm not sure this proposal will help matters, not if Montreal's Police are as fucked up as the UK's lot anyway.

When I think of that old geezer thrown out of the Labour party conference under 'anti terrorism' legislation, or the police officers going through Damian Green's papers, again under 'anti terrorism' legislation, my first thought is always :-

'How on earth did those police officers convince themselves that what they were asked to do was a reasonable request?'

I'm curious to know what sort of indoctrination is going on during police training these days.

bob
6th February 09, 05:10 AM
Would it count as swearing if you made an amusing double entendre on the word "Mountie"?

sochin101
6th February 09, 05:45 AM
What, and insinuate that "always getting their man" was somehow a homo-erotic boast?

bob
6th February 09, 07:45 AM
Always better to be the mount-er than the mount-ee, eh?

Truculent Sheep
6th February 09, 07:46 AM
When I think of that old geezer thrown out of the Labour party conference under 'anti terrorism' legislation, or the police officers going through Damian Green's papers, again under 'anti terrorism' legislation, my first thought is always :-

'How on earth did those police officers convince themselves that what they were asked to do was a reasonable request?'

I'm curious to know what sort of indoctrination is going on during police training these days.

Partly it's down to the increasing gulf between police and policed - Police are often recruited from outside the communities they are assigned to, and they often hang out with each other and at the same places. The public seldom has much contact with them, and when they do, it's often a frosty affair.

For example, in Dagenham (where I do oft sometimes dwell), we like to go to a nice cafe. Thing is, it's where the police go too, so they'll congregate on one table, look menacing and not talk to anyone else. When one (slightly silly) waitress asked one copper why he didn't carry a gun, he sneered that he'd only had one pointed at him in 20 years' of service and then went back to eating his lunch. That may have been true, but there was a contempt in his voice that she'd dare ask him something in the first place. They're not like the people they work amongst, and they don't honestly care. So much for public service.

But there's also been a thuggish element in most police forces for years. My girlfriend's father was once picked up by a police van, driven off to a field and then given a good kicking simply because they didn't like the look of him. In the past, this Dim-From-Clockwork-Orange yobbishness was directed at the Irish, blacks, gay men, hippies and other minorities on the fringe, but it's now being directed at the rest of the public too. Partly because the government says it's OK, and partly because - as we all know - power corrupts.

Equipoise
6th February 09, 10:53 AM
What if you act like a hardass because you're armed to the teeth and have backup waiting. Does that make you a spineless ninny as well?



It's a two way street. Also, I don't know what you mean "armed to the teeth" we don't walk around like Rambo with an M60 hen doing a traffic stop. As I said earlier, treating people like shit amounts to a lack of information, screwed up cases and enemies. Professionalism is important.

SFGOON
6th February 09, 12:43 PM
What a lot of tough guy types don't realize is that for cops, the backup, the taser and the gun even out a pretty shitty numbers game. Cops go to work and get in fights with people who genuinely want to hurt them, not just smack us around and bloody us up. We do it again and again and again and again. What may be a traumatic, life altering brawl for some idiot is just one fight out of three the cop got into that shift.

If I was paid to MMA/homo fight guys in the octagon, I'd follow the rules and the fight would be fair. I'd go to work once per month, do my shit and go home. Being a police officer I have to respond to a plethora of mentally disturbed and sometimes violent people on a daily basis. So, I'm not going to fight fair. I'm going to make sure I can do my job, keep myself and those around me safe, and if I need to call 50 friends with M-4 rifles I'm going to fucking do it.

I've got a number and when it's up, it's up.

But you can bet your sweet ass I'm going to do everything I can to keep that number from coming up.

Edit: But any cop who doesn't have the stomach to take a little swearing from a lunatic is in the wrong business.

EuropIan
6th February 09, 01:01 PM
Why would anyone swear at a police officer? It has no function.


On the other hand, it can be hard to start a rational conversation sometimes because of selection bias.

SFGOON
6th February 09, 01:11 PM
Why would anyone swear at all? Losing your temper is the first, best and strongest indicator of brain damage and dysfunction.

I reminded sailors and truckers of this every day when I worked for DHS/TSA, much to their irritation and my amusement.

Cullion
6th February 09, 01:24 PM
We do it again and again and again and again. What may be a traumatic, life altering brawl for some idiot is just one fight out of three the cop got into that shift.

Being a police officer I have to respond to a plethora of mentally disturbed and sometimes violent people on a daily basis. So, I'm not going to fight fair. I'm going to make sure I can do my job, keep myself and those around me safe, and if I need to call 50 friends with M-4 rifles I'm going to fucking do it.

Are you already out of the academy ? I guess they skipped all that boring jurisprudence and put you straight on the SWAT team after checking you can do 50 pushups by the sound of it. Don't forget to rip your shirt off hulk hogan style and play your heavy-metal ring music the first time somebody resists arrest! Raarrgh!

KO'd N DOA
6th February 09, 04:40 PM
In Montreal cops are having a labour dispute with the city. Been having it forever and no one knows why - something they picked up from France, I guess.

They wear red ball hats and blue jeans or camo pants. And the female recruites are.. well... young fit french girls... not many complaints on that - exept some guy broke court ordered curfew and when approached his brother headlocked a female cop in a park. The male partner blew him away... look but don't touch our women cops. (added video to see female cops in jeans, I would give the guys filming a F for shakey, but you'll get the gist...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GYQrYG7XV8

Recently as a pressure tactic they stopped giving out tickets to - anyone for doing anything- costing the city millions in lost 'revenue'.

Montreal probalby made up the story so more people would start swearing at the cops. Negotiation tactic, like the cops would write tickets on that.

Anyone fluent in Quebecois will notice that it is linguistically impossible to say a sentence without at least 3-5 words that will violate the code. Movie : "Bon Cop, Bad Cop" anyone?

Truculent Sheep
6th February 09, 04:50 PM
What a lot of tough guy types don't realize is that for cops, the backup, the taser and the gun even out a pretty shitty numbers game. Cops go to work and get in fights with people who genuinely want to hurt them, not just smack us around and bloody us up. We do it again and again and again and again. What may be a traumatic, life altering brawl for some idiot is just one fight out of three the cop got into that shift.


Please note that I'm not arguing against the police using necessary means or force to protect themselves and the public. I'm only arguing against the abuse of police power.

Or to put it another way - from what I can gather, you're effectively policing a low level insurgency in an unstable and dangerous urban environment. Equipose may well have similar fun and frolics to deal with in Florida.

But that's 1000 miles away from pumping bullets into the head of an unarmed, well-behaved Brazilian at Stockwell Tube Station or arresting someone for calling a police horse gay or arresting peaceful protesters under anti-terrorism legislation. There are cases too, throughout the world, where the Police have either been given disproportionate powers or act disproportinately. That is the issue here.

As an aside, perhaps if UK rozzers had to deal with what some US police officers have to face, they'd realise how lucky they really are. And they'd stop being wankers to a generally well-behaved public.

TheLordHumungus
6th February 09, 04:50 PM
It's a two way street. Also, I don't know what you mean "armed to the teeth" we don't walk around like Rambo with an M60 hen doing a traffic stop. As I said earlier, treating people like shit amounts to a lack of information, screwed up cases and enemies. Professionalism is important.
As someone who doesn't carry any weapons at all, I consider police very well armed (mace, baton, tazer, gun). But if we're using Rambo as the baseline, then I agree armed to the teeth takes on a new meaning.

SFGOON
6th February 09, 05:18 PM
Are you already out of the academy ? I guess they skipped all that boring jurisprudence and put you straight on the SWAT team after checking you can do 50 pushups by the sound of it. Don't forget to rip your shirt off hulk hogan style and play your heavy-metal ring music the first time somebody resists arrest! Raarrgh!

No no no. I only wrote it that way because the pronouns got confusing. "We" "you" "they" got a little muddled. I used the first person for clarity's sake.

TheLordHumungus
6th February 09, 05:39 PM
What a lot of tough guy types don't realize is that for cops, the backup, the taser and the gun even out a pretty shitty numbers game. Cops go to work and get in fights with people who genuinely want to hurt them, not just smack us around and bloody us up. We do it again and again and again and again. What may be a traumatic, life altering brawl for some idiot is just one fight out of three the cop got into that shift.

If I was paid to MMA/homo fight guys in the octagon, I'd follow the rules and the fight would be fair. I'd go to work once per month, do my shit and go home. Being a police officer I have to respond to a plethora of mentally disturbed and sometimes violent people on a daily basis. So, I'm not going to fight fair. I'm going to make sure I can do my job, keep myself and those around me safe, and if I need to call 50 friends with M-4 rifles I'm going to fucking do it.

I've got a number and when it's up, it's up.

But you can bet your sweet ass I'm going to do everything I can to keep that number from coming up.

Edit: But any cop who doesn't have the stomach to take a little swearing from a lunatic is in the wrong business.

How I love the old "we have a dangerous job, and require some wiggle room" argument I always get from cops. With a job so deadly as yours, what good is a sense of personal honor. The fatality rate for cops is about 21.4 per 100,000 employed. And if you guys need to take drastic action to protect your safety, think about the special rights we should afford professions more dangerous than yours.

Like garbagemen (22.8), drivers/truck drivers (26.2), power line workers (29.1), roofers (29.4), farmers (38.4), iron/steel workers (45.5), pilots/flight engineers (66.7), loggers (86.4), and fishermen (111.8). Damn, I mean if you catch fish for a living you should have license to kill anyone who might make your job any more dangerous than it already is.

Cullion
6th February 09, 05:43 PM
No no no. I only wrote it that way because the pronouns got confusing. "We" "you" "they" got a little muddled. I used the first person for clarity's sake.

No that's cool. I know what you're talking about. We reserve soldiers are having a terrible time in Afghanistan. Sometimes they come at us with children wearing suicide vests, it's terrible.

Sorry. That was in appalling taste. But you know what I'm saying even better than I do.

Dark Helmet
6th February 09, 05:43 PM
7 words you can't say to a cop.
fFmRypAYz_E

Dark Helmet
6th February 09, 05:49 PM
I think it should be pointed out that the Montreal police are in contract negotiations with the city government. And to put pressure on the city the cops have been wearing camo pants and baseball caps.

I can certainly relate to their contract woes but the yellow and orange camo pants make them come-off as douches in my view.


http://www.mcgilldaily.com/article/4819-camo-sparks-debate-over-police

http://a123.g.akamai.net/f/123/12465/1d/www.montrealgazette.com/health/city+unions+marathon+negotiations/1204715/1204716.bin


http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/4236/0926pants500bigsy4.jpg

Equipoise
6th February 09, 06:50 PM
How I love the old "we have a dangerous job, and require some wiggle room" argument I always get from cops. With a job so deadly as yours, what good is a sense of personal honor. The fatality rate for cops is about 21.4 per 100,000 employed. And if you guys need to take drastic action to protect your safety, think about the special rights we should afford professions more dangerous than yours.

Like garbagemen (22.8), drivers/truck drivers (26.2), power line workers (29.1), roofers (29.4), farmers (38.4), iron/steel workers (45.5), pilots/flight engineers (66.7), loggers (86.4), and fishermen (111.8). Damn, I mean if you catch fish for a living you should have license to kill anyone who might make your job any more dangerous than it already is.

All of the above that go to work don't go into work knowing there is the high likelihood of being assaulted or killed. None of the above get assaulted/killed by violence in the line of duty. We do.

26.3 is the correct statistic for what you quoted above. That's from the FBI UCR stats.

Can you cite where you got the rest of your numbers from please? Thus far you're dodging logic in favor of straw man arguments, improperly cited statistics and sensationalism.

WarPhalange
6th February 09, 07:01 PM
I wouldn't mind giving cops "wiggle room" if I knew they'd use it to make their job easier, and not to go off on power trips.

Equipoise
6th February 09, 09:06 PM
99 % of officers are good officers who don't go off on power trips. The one officer who screws up however is deemed as the representative to how we all are.

Don't listen to TLH's non-factual drivel. He's a deluded douche bag who substantiates his own malcontented personality by directed his dysfunctions towards authority figures.

HappyOldGuy
6th February 09, 09:12 PM
100% of everybody are douches occasionally. The difference between a good guy and a flaming ass is the frequency.

Equipoise
6th February 09, 09:27 PM
Another straw man......

TheLordHumungus
6th February 09, 10:02 PM
All of the above that go to work don't go into work knowing there is the high likelihood of being assaulted or killed. None of the above get assaulted/killed by violence in the line of duty. We do.

26.3 is the correct statistic for what you quoted above. That's from the FBI UCR stats.

Can you cite where you got the rest of your numbers from please? Thus far you're dodging logic in favor of straw man arguments, improperly cited statistics and sensationalism.

What straw man? I said your job was less dangerous than a bunch of others. This just means the powers you're given are based not on how dangerous your job is, but some other factor. besides, I said 'about 21.4'. the most recent numbers I could find were from 2007. I was using the bureau of labor statistics numbers.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cfoi.pdf

Sorry Equipoise. We've discussed this. Just because you dislike what statistics say, doesn't mean they're made up.

SFGOON
7th February 09, 12:03 AM
ATTN WORLD! PEOPLE IN OTHER FIELDS DIE AT A HIGHER RATE THAN POLICE! THEREFORE POLICE HAVE NO RIGHT TO USE VIOLENCE TO PROTECT THEMSELVES OR THE PUBLIC! i HAVE STATS!!! I HAVE PROOF!!!1

Dumbass, the deaths and injuries inflicted on loggers, fishermen, steelworkers, and longshoremen don't occur due to the criminal violence.

But I have to commend you for taking utter bullshit and making it look academic. You even through some stats in there! You'd almost make a mediocre guerrilla.

It's funny, yet sad, when misplaced animosity meets willful ignorance.

Kein Haar
7th February 09, 12:26 AM
What is the use of force spectrum for crab cages?

HappyOldGuy
7th February 09, 12:34 AM
Dumbass, the deaths and injuries inflicted on loggers, fishermen, steelworkers, and longshoremen don't occur due to the criminal violence.



Cab drivers are still bigger badasses than you guys are.

GuiltySpark
7th February 09, 12:39 AM
Oh, okay. Not the answer I was expecting, but thanks all the same.

I should behave though, I'll be in Montreal in about a week. If I get arrested on vacation for calling a pig a "pig", my whole trip might be ruined.

What answer were you expecting?

Anyone who tries to act tough because their armed and have immediate back up should be sorted out by their own side.

We had an asshole here who did that. Fucked with locals. Sometimes they deserve it and you bring the pain down on em but this prick would do it because he had little man syndrome. No reason to be lke that. So one day we locked him outside the gate alone with 500 locals and let him panic a while.

SFGOON
7th February 09, 12:53 AM
Every time I start to think the Canadian Army are a bunch of pine-tree crazed moose chasers I just read one of your posts and am reminded of epic win.

GuiltySpark
7th February 09, 01:07 AM
Every time I start to think the Canadian Army are a bunch of pine-tree crazed moose chasers I just read one of your posts and am reminded of epic win.

I'm not blowing anyone when I say this but it took working along side American soldiers (airmen, marines etc..) to remind us of our warrior spirit.

For the longest time our higher ups shied away from using the word kill. Afghanistan slowly unpussified us.


99 % of officers are good officers who don't go off on power trips. The one officer who screws up however is deemed as the representative to how we all are.
This isn't just cops, pretty much everyone.

HappyOldGuy
7th February 09, 01:46 AM
Another straw man......

How exactly is that a straw man?

TheLordHumungus
7th February 09, 02:23 AM
Another straw man......

G2y8Sx4B2Sk

TheLordHumungus
7th February 09, 02:28 AM
Dumbass, the deaths and injuries inflicted on loggers, fishermen, steelworkers, and longshoremen don't occur due to the criminal violence.

But I have to commend you for taking utter bullshit and making it look academic. You even through some stats in there! You'd almost make a mediocre guerrilla.

It's funny, yet sad, when misplaced animosity meets willful ignorance.

Fatalities among truckers (transportation workers) do occur due to criminal violence. Miners are killed because their management are sometimes criminally negligent. Are they allowed added discretion in violently dealing with the ppl who put them in danger.

And the whole "I don't play by your rules so that I can survive" angle only works if you're not the one putting yourself in life or death situations.

elipson
7th February 09, 02:40 AM
Fatalities among truckers (transportation workers) do occur due to criminal violence. Miners are killed because their management are sometimes criminally negligent.

References or STFU.


Are they allowed added discretion in violently dealing with the ppl who put them in danger.


Anytime someone intentionally puts your life in danger you have added discretion in dealing with them violently. Idiot.

TheLordHumungus
7th February 09, 04:04 AM
References or STFU.

I gave you a fucking link like 11 posts ago. Read page 8 and STFU. You ppl demand sources but don't read them?


Anytime someone intentionally puts your life in danger you have added discretion in dealing with them violently. Idiot.

So, if a miner is ordered to go into a mine he feels isn't up to safety code he can take violent punitive action against his supervisor? If not, it isn't equal to the added discretion a pig is given to ensure his own safety. Fucktard.

GuiltySpark
7th February 09, 07:01 AM
Do we even still have miners?
Isn;t that like, turn of the century-ish?

Cullion
7th February 09, 09:23 AM
So, if a miner is ordered to go into a mine he feels isn't up to safety code he can take violent punitive action against his supervisor? If not, it isn't equal to the added discretion a pig is given to ensure his own safety. Fucktard.

You're an idiot.

Truculent Sheep
7th February 09, 09:28 AM
So, if a miner is ordered to go into a mine he feels isn't up to safety code he can take violent punitive action against his supervisor? If not, it isn't equal to the added discretion a pig is given to ensure his own safety. Fucktard.

Speak for yourself. That argument was pisspoor. The real issue at stake is the right to take APPROPRIATE action given the circumstances and the time one has to make a decision. In the example you've given, the appropriate action would be for the miner to refuse to go down into the pit. Whereas, a policeman or a soldier may have to use deadly force in certain scenarios where it really is down to 'them or us'.

Context is everything.

Yiktin Voxbane
7th February 09, 10:39 AM
Ok, so WHERE do *we* draw the line ....

If swearing were to be allowed, how long before people start feeling they should be allowed to spit on an officer of the law ?

Just as a matter of decent consideratrion of a fellow human being should be enough to answer that , seemingly not in the land of the free (and Eagle Pen0r) .

And just for the record , I neither love nor hate the constabulary , but realize they're, sadly, needed to stop assholes from being fulltime-assholes .

Equipoise
7th February 09, 11:05 AM
Well, spitting on an officer is battery with a potentially deadly weapon. That's a bit different than swearing at me. Since I've had both done to me, I'd much rather have someone swear at me.

Cullion
7th February 09, 11:39 AM
I think police officers should be protected by the same laws that everybody else is protected by, and spitting on one would be a form of assault in the UK.

Whilst that would mean that you could swear at an officer, directly threatening an officer might also be a crime.

sochin101
7th February 09, 12:06 PM
Whilst that would mean that you could swear at an officer, directly threatening an officer might also be a crime. In genteel England, threatening anyone is a crime.

Affray:


The Public Order Act 1986 s.3 states:

A person is guilty of affray if a person uses or threatens unlawful violence towards another and the person's conduct is such as would cause a person of reasonable firmness present at the scene to fear for his personal safety.
Where two or more persons use or threaten the unlawful violence, it is the conduct of them taken together that must be considered for the purpose of subsection (1)
For the purposes of this section a threat can not be made by the use of words alone.
No person of reasonable firmness need actually be, or be likely to be, present at the scene.
Affray may be committed in private as well as in public placesNumber three states words alone are not enough... behaviour and body language are often taken into account.

I had a friend who had a fight in the street and was convicted of affray (the complaint was by a by-stander - the girlfriend of the guy he fought with). Probably the lamest thing to be convicted of outside of kid-touching.
"What you in for?"
"I swore in the street and someone of reasonable firmness feared for their safety"
"You farkin' nonce" *shiv*.

SFGOON
7th February 09, 12:10 PM
I like that wording "someone of reasonable firmness."

But what about guys (blokes) like me, guys (blokes) of exceptional firmness?

Cullion
7th February 09, 12:49 PM
I like that wording "someone of reasonable firmness."

But what about guys (blokes) like me, guys (blokes) of exceptional firmness?

He wasn't taking about boners, pervert.

elipson
7th February 09, 02:10 PM
Like garbagemen (22.8), drivers/truck drivers (26.2), power line workers (29.1), roofers (29.4), farmers (38.4), iron/steel workers (45.5), pilots/flight engineers (66.7), loggers (86.4), and fishermen (111.8). Damn, I mean if you catch fish for a living you should have license to kill anyone who might make your job any more dangerous than it already is.



Fatalities among truckers (transportation workers) do occur due to criminal violence.

This is the part that matters idiot. Give me links saying how many transportation workers were killed due to criminal VIOLENCE.

elipson
7th February 09, 02:27 PM
And for what its worth, 99% of people out there are respectable and like cops, and as such would use the right to them to fuck off only when it was both applicable and justified. I don't think you should remove a right from the vast majority of people just so you can give a ticket to the extreme minority.

Equipoise
7th February 09, 02:42 PM
Technically it's already in place in the US due to the Breach of the Peace/Disorderly Conduct charges we can assess. However certain requirements need to be met.

Elipson, your statistic is way too high.. I'd say it's highly dependent upon where you work. With where I work, it's closer to 40%. It's rare that I get someone who's polite to me during a traffic stop, FI, or when responding to an incident.

TheLordHumungus
7th February 09, 03:01 PM
This is the part that matters idiot. Give me links saying how many transportation workers were killed due to criminal VIOLENCE.

Are you illiterate? On page 8 of the document I linked to is a breakdown of how ppl died by occupation. Try reading it. Here's a clue: when they say HOMICIDE, they mean criminal violence.

TheLordHumungus
7th February 09, 03:07 PM
Speak for yourself. That argument was pisspoor. The real issue at stake is the right to take APPROPRIATE action given the circumstances and the time one has to make a decision. In the example you've given, the appropriate action would be for the miner to refuse to go down into the pit. Whereas, a policeman or a soldier may have to use deadly force in certain scenarios where it really is down to 'them or us'.

Context is everything.

I only speak for myself.

And I don't actually think miners or fisherman need added discretion in using violence against others. Nor should any job have special rights allowing them to abuse others. Just saying that using the idea that police work is so damn dangerous as justification for a cop's added discretion is bullshit.

sochin101
7th February 09, 03:15 PM
And I don't actually think miners or fisherman need added discretion in using violence against others. Nor should any job have special rights allowing them to abuse others. Just saying that using the idea that police work is so damn dangerous as justification for a cop's added discretion is bullshit.
Which jobs have special rights allowing them to abuse others, please?
Cite sources, please.

elipson
7th February 09, 03:21 PM
Equipose, you are considering only the persons you actively deal with.

I'm taking the population as a whole. I think its safe to say that the selection of the population you deal with are much more combative than the rest of the population as a whole. But this law would not effect this more combative selections of the population only. It would affect the whole.

Cullion
7th February 09, 03:25 PM
I don't think saying 'don't be so fucking ridiculous' to a police officer should be an offence, but 'fuck you, one more step and I will fucking end you' is.

elipson
7th February 09, 03:26 PM
Threatening a police officer, or a person, is and should be illegal.

Telling a cop he is a fucking asshole when he is being a fucking asshole (and don't pretend it doesn't happen, I've been on both sides of this happening) should not be illegal.

Kein Haar
7th February 09, 03:34 PM
If swearing were to be allowed....

It is allowed.

Happens all the time.

Here's the thing...

Certain people want to hate the police officer in front of him on a very personal level. They already hate the police philosophically, so they want to remain consistent...especially if they are on the recieving end of criminal scrutiny. The odds are favorable, however, that the actual real-life officer will treat him with reasonable professionalism.

So the antagonism is often a result of this conflict in their little walnut brains. Must hate....have no reason...provoke cop INTO being an asshole so hating him/lying is easier.

It is not unlike alll their other interpersonal relationships. Their comfort zone is chaos. Where there is none, they will create it.

People default to their genes and early social habits in times of stress. Now, if both of those histories happen to suck (and they often do)...well....

The college educated, married couples who own property, etc....those kinds of people tend to not think about the police very much. No need. If they do (like being a victim of something), they typically understand how administrations and beaurocracies work, they are patient, ask inciteful questions and have rational concerns.

The ignorant and chaotic...not so much. Loud, petty points of contention under the influence of drugs/alcohol with their live-in boy/girlfriends are more important than their 4 year old being able to sleep etc. Police are on their mind much more frequently because FOR SOME STRANGE REASON THEY KEEP SHOWING UP. Kind of a pervasive trend.

sochin101
7th February 09, 03:57 PM
I don't think saying 'don't be so fucking ridiculous' to a police officer should be an offence, but 'fuck you, one more step and I will fucking end you' is.I agree with that. With the f-word being second nature for so many people, I suppose the police have to make allowances for "I didn't see a f*cking road sign, mate" etc...

What about "you're a f*cking c*nt, mate..., I wasn't doing more than 30, show me a speed camera or go f*ck yourself" to a police officer?
That's kind of down the middle. It isn't a threat, but it is verbal abuse.

What would you expect a police officer to do in that instance?

Equipoise
7th February 09, 04:06 PM
I don't mind general cursing in my presence. It doesn't bother me like "Fuck... Was I speeding?" or even "Fuck this shit, my insurance is going to go up." However when someone says "Fuck you, you piece of shit.", that gets a bit irritating and depending on where it goes, can lead to arrest.


What about "you're a f*cking c*nt, mate..., I wasn't doing more than 30, show me a speed camera or go f*ck yourself" to a police officer?
That's kind of down the middle. It isn't a threat, but it is verbal abuse.

Well it's a definite they're getting a few citations out of the deal. I tend not to take that sort of nonsense personally. Now if he doesn't present his license, insurance and registration upon my asking, he goes to jail. If he doesn't sign the citation, he goes to jail. If he gives me any PC excuse to lock him up, I will, however if he just wants to run his mouth, he'll hold paper and get to go along his merry/angry way.

I get the most joy out of knowing that when I leave, he/she is going to go absolutely berserk but they can't do anything about it but go to court. =-)

elipson
7th February 09, 04:12 PM
However when someone says "Fuck you, you piece of shit.", that gets a bit irritating and depending on where it goes, can lead to arrest.

This is why I don't really feel bad for cops getting swore at. Because in reality, they aren't exactly defenseless. There are lots of things a cop can legitimately do to fuck up your day when you swear ar them. It's not like they are royal guards outside Windsor palace who have to stand there and take it.

sochin101
7th February 09, 04:40 PM
Well it's a definite they're getting a few citations out of the deal. I tend not to take that sort of nonsense personally. Now if he doesn't present his license, insurance and registration upon my asking, he goes to jail. If he doesn't sign the citation, he goes to jail. If he gives me any PC excuse to lock him up, I will, however if he just wants to run his mouth, he'll hold paper and get to go along his merry/angry way.

I get the most joy out of knowing that when I leave, he/she is going to go absolutely berserk but they can't do anything about it but go to court. =-)
See, this is exactly why I'm polite whenever I'm stopped by the police ;-)

Cullion
7th February 09, 06:03 PM
I agree with that. With the f-word being second nature for so many people, I suppose the police have to make allowances for "I didn't see a f*cking road sign, mate" etc...

What about "you're a f*cking c*nt, mate..., I wasn't doing more than 30, show me a speed camera or go f*ck yourself" to a police officer?
That's kind of down the middle. It isn't a threat, but it is verbal abuse.

What would you expect a police officer to do in that instance?

I don't think the example you give should be an offence under the law.

I would want a police officer to keep his cool in the circumstances, because the way you described it doesn't sound like somebody squaring up to attack him, it sounds like a frustrated person with poor impulse control just venting.

I don't think giving a young, inexperienced police officer who is eager to prove themselves a legal tool to put them in a cell for venting like that is going to make the police any safer or make their job any easier.

sochin101
7th February 09, 06:35 PM
I don't think the example you give should be an offence under the law.

I would want a police officer to keep his cool in the circumstances, because the way you described it doesn't sound like somebody squaring up to attack him, it sounds like a frustrated person with poor impulse control just venting.
Ok. I can see that. It's words, without any real intent.

Would you take that sort of verbal abuse without any retaliation?

elipson
7th February 09, 07:12 PM
Would you take that sort of verbal abuse without any retaliation?

I do quite often. Either at work or even just out with my friends, some random person spouting off really isn't worth the associated trouble of knocking his ass out.

Cullion
7th February 09, 07:36 PM
Ok. I can see that. It's words, without any real intent.

Would you take that sort of verbal abuse without any retaliation?

I would and have on numerous occasions, even after a few beers.

sochin101
8th February 09, 09:29 AM
And you don't retaliate because of the concern of any consequences like elipson, or..?

(that's not loaded in any way... I've altered my reaction to situations like that because of the potential impact on my travel to Australia/America)

Cullion
8th February 09, 10:27 AM
Because I don't want to go to jail or get stabbed just to prove I'm too tough to take that from the likes of you. It's not worth it. I have kids to provide for and a decent job.

sochin101
8th February 09, 03:32 PM
Because I don't want to go to jail or get stabbed just to prove I'm too tough to take that from the likes of you. It's not worth it. I have kids to provide for and a decent job.
Ok. Good reasons.

Do you think that if the police were permitted to enforce such anti-social behaviour a little more vigorously, people like you wouldn't have to endure such bollocks?
Wouldn't that be nice?

HappyOldGuy
8th February 09, 03:44 PM
Ok. Good reasons.

Do you think that if the police were permitted to enforce such anti-social behaviour a little more vigorously, people like you wouldn't have to endure such bollocks?
Wouldn't that be nice?

I'm quite sure that people like me would wind up on the wrong end of a nightstick.

We probably disagree on whether that would be a good thing or not.

Cullion
8th February 09, 03:57 PM
Ok. Good reasons.

Do you think that if the police were permitted to enforce such anti-social behaviour a little more vigorously, people like you wouldn't have to endure such bollocks?
Wouldn't that be nice?

I don't have much trouble with it these days. It's certainly never bothered me enough to want to see the police unleashed to go around cracking skulls because somebody was being rude. I think that would (and to a degree is) making the police themselves anti-social.

elipson
8th February 09, 04:09 PM
Police these days have enough issues with their image. I think trying to enforce a politeness requirement would just make them even less liked.

GuiltySpark
9th February 09, 01:00 AM
I wonder how citizens would react if a cop was having a bad day and said citizen complained about something to the cop and he said go fuck your hat you stunned cunt.

Then again plice DO have bad days and tase people, humm.

lant3rn
9th February 09, 02:19 AM
p1C76rachow
Here is my take.
If you skip to 1:01, that pretty much sums it up.

elipson
9th February 09, 03:29 AM
There is an expectation of professionalism when you're a cop. I think we can all agree it's justified. If you can't manage that, you can still quit and find another job and live a perfectly good life.

There is no similar expectation of politeness just to exist in a society. If you think there should be an expectation like this, and that it should be enforced, I'd like to hear your argument for it. If a person can't or chooses not to be polite in a society, they can't exactly just walk away from society.

sochin101
9th February 09, 08:35 AM
I don't have much trouble with it these days. It's certainly never bothered me enough to want to see the police unleashed to go around cracking skulls because somebody was being rude. I think that would (and to a degree is) making the police themselves anti-social.
I was less musing on the "make police the politeness enforcers" as I was lamenting that we have to take shit from brain-dead chav cocksuckers (who have no job, no life to worry about) so we don't lose the privileges we've worked hard to earn.

But, it's our own fault.
We've allowed this sort of behaviour to go on without censure.

sochin101
9th February 09, 08:41 AM
There is no similar expectation of politeness just to exist in a society. If you think there should be an expectation like this, and that it should be enforced, I'd like to hear your argument for it. If a person can't or chooses not to be polite in a society, they can't exactly just walk away from society.
I do expect people to be polite. I expect manners. I'm often sorely disappointed.

GuiltySpark
9th February 09, 10:05 AM
There is no similar expectation of politeness just to exist in a society. If you think there should be an expectation like this, and that it should be enforced, I'd like to hear your argument for it. If a person can't or chooses not to be polite in a society, they can't exactly just walk away from society.

Thats a fair question.
Consider this.

If your a police officer and you're at the scene of an accident or some kinda situation and I come up to you and start saying
your a fucking faggot bacon eating pig dog fucking fuzz ball cocksucker pussy fuck you you fucking piece of shit pig fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you.

it takes away you credibility as an authority figure, takes away from you credibility as a law enforcement officer and makes your job not only harder but more dangerous as that type of behavior can make things go downhill VERY fast.

In prison if a guard lets a prisoner walk all over them their fucked. They lose the respect of the prisoners and once that happens its a matter of time before they fuck with you.
Same thing in the army. If you let locals disrespect you treat you liek shit get in your face and make an ass ot of you then you loose credibility infront of everyone else and you're pretty much done. I see the same thing in so far as police officers go.

How often do you see teenagers going up to cops with the whole fuck you you fucking pig you cant touch me I know my rights my rights blabla my rights bla bla bla.
Is it free speech or is it impeeding on a police officers authority?
Free speech isn't absolute. Theres lots of shit you can't say.

I just think confrontational language against an officer should be a fineable offense. Everyone upon everyone has a camera today. If a cop is being a prick (and ya they can be major pussies and assholes) instead of swearing at them get their behavior on tape and bring it up their chain of command.

Kein Haar
9th February 09, 10:30 AM
Correction Officers....that is slightly different. That's a primal, animal-pack society to which your rationale kind fo applies. But not really...because levying a minor punishment against an inmate is useless in terms of sending a general message.

When they act like assholes, they are trying to be provocotive. They are looking for the white-dude to start screaming and get all beet red. It's all very amusing them. So that crap you have to ignore. Act as if they are a chattering squirrel at worst.

Of course, if there is an assault against a CO, the beat-down should be immediate, over-whelming, and public.

Cops are somewhere in between, I guess. Can't always ignore the verbal stuff, but there's no rational tactics behind beating the shit out of someone beyond the scope of arresting them.

It can often be articulated that verbal interjections are simply interfering with the investigation you're trying to complete. It's not about hurt feelings, it's about getting in the way of talking to a victim or whatever.

Equipoise
9th February 09, 08:30 PM
GS- The scenario you described has nothing to do with swearing specifically. That individual besides being obviously mentally unbalances is breaching the peace/engaging in disorderly conduct and also interfering with my investigation. They'd get cuffed and stuffed for that nonsense. I've done that lots of times to people that want to run their mouth when I'm dealing with something else entirely.

I'm sure Hein can agree that we run into domestics/disturbances where some loud mouthed dipshit bystander won't stop interfering. People often get numerous warnings in this regard before getting taken in.

The moral of the story is "Don't be an asshole."

TheLordHumungus
10th February 09, 01:11 AM
Which jobs have special rights allowing them to abuse others, please?
Cite sources, please.

Really? Does the use of force continuum exist in the UK, or is it just an American thing?

If my neighbor is throwing garbage on my porch, I know I have the "right" under the law to "verbally command" him to stop. The question is, if he ignores me, when do I get the "right" to handcuff him (or beat/incapacitate/kill him).

TheLordHumungus
10th February 09, 03:04 AM
I was less musing on the "make police the politeness enforcers" as I was lamenting that we have to take shit from brain-dead chav cocksuckers (who have no job, no life to worry about) so we don't lose the privileges we've worked hard to earn.

But, it's our own fault.
We've allowed this sort of behaviour to go on without censure.
And really, chav? I expect Hein to make classist remarks about how those who've entirely bought into the system are better behaved, for example:

The college educated, married couples who own property, etc....those kinds of people tend to not think about the police very much. No need. If they do (like being a victim of something), they typically understand how administrations and beaurocracies work, they are patient, ask inciteful questions and have rational concerns.

The ignorant and chaotic...not so much. Loud, petty points of contention under the influence of drugs/alcohol with their live-in boy/girlfriends are more important than their 4 year old being able to sleep etc. Police are on their mind much more frequently because FOR SOME STRANGE REASON THEY KEEP SHOWING UP. Kind of a pervasive trend.
But to do it using a term that is both classist and insulting to the Romani is a bit low.

Kein Haar
10th February 09, 07:34 AM
Huh?

Fearless Ukemi
10th February 09, 08:35 AM
He's saying it's cool for him to be an insulting dick, but not you since you're a cop.

Kein Haar
10th February 09, 08:48 AM
Funny. I'm usually a pro-active bulwark against racism in the fucktards I "pr0t3ct and sirv."

Just last night a mexican manager at Walmart repeatedly called the police due to black people shopping (at Walmart? Shopping? Get the fuck out!). After a series of practical suggestions relayed via Dispatch, I hear at one point: "Ok...the manager did check their I.D.s against their credit cards, and they are who they say they are, but there are still two more in the store!"

You know what I did?

Nothing.

Well, I relayed patronizing customer service advice via Dispatch...but that's it.

And when she called back about OMG MOAR BLACK PEOPLE SHOPPING AT NIGHT!!11?

Again, nothing.

You know what I do when someone reports a black guy walking down the street?

Nothing.

Sometimes I drive by and conclude radio traffic with: "Yes, a black guy is indeed walking down the street."

BUT ZOMG IT NEVER MADE TEH NOOZ SO IT'S NOT TRUE AND LORDHUMUNGUS CNA'T COPY AND PASTE PROOF OF STUFF

Classist, yes. There are definately low classes of people. They usually steal shit from other classes. Of course, honestly, TLH is giving me food for thought. Maybe I shouldn't care about theft anymore. Hrmmm. When his big bouncer's mag-light is burglarized from his firebird, I'll be like: "What? Poor people don't need illumination? I suggest you consider the possible class of he who needed your property, SIR."

Equipoise
10th February 09, 09:42 AM
I'm guessing TLH lives and works in a predominately white upper class suburban environment....

sochin101
10th February 09, 09:48 AM
Really? Does the use of force continuum exist in the UK, or is it just an American thing?

If my neighbor is throwing garbage on my porch, I know I have the "right" under the law to "verbally command" him to stop. The question is, if he ignores me, when do I get the "right" to handcuff him (or beat/incapacitate/kill him).
Didn't actually answer my question really, did it?
I didn't ask about your porch.
I didn't ask about your neighbour.
It did seem as though I asked about garbage, though.

I'm still waiting for a list of professions that have special rights to abuse.

Equipoise
10th February 09, 09:57 AM
He threw in another strawman here Sochin. The use of force matrix, spectrum, continuum, etc is used by officers world wide. They are guidelines on how to deal with specific levels of force as I'm sure you've figured out. They don't pertain to civilians. Furthermore TLH could always refer to Graham v. Connor for the reasonableness standard of using force against a resisting individual.

Also, his example is crap. If someone is dumping trash upon his property, it can be considered criminal mischief or illegal dumping (ha!) He can tell them to stop, however since a local/state POLICY is being violated, he should call the POLICE so we can deal with the offender.

Just because that person is dumping trash in the yard doesn't mean he's going to get the ASP. Chances are he's just being a dick to his neighbor, so he'll hold paper. If he wants to take it further when we tell him to cease and desist then we will respond with the Graham v. Connor reasonableness standard to the level of force that we encounter from that individual.

sochin101
10th February 09, 10:02 AM
And really, chav? I expect Hein to make classist remarks about how those who've entirely bought into the system are better behaved, for example:

But to do it using a term that is both classist and insulting to the Romani is a bit low.When 'chav' was put into the OED in 2005, I remember the confusion over the etymology of the word.
Some thought it was from Council House And Violent. Some thought it was an Anglo-Romany loan word for child (chavi), as chavs tend to be young.
Some, much more recently, got totally confused, talked out their arses and assumed it was some kind of slight against the poor Romany people...


We have lots of Romany loan words. Mush (mouth) is one. When someone says "shut your mush" we aren't telling all Romanies to be quiet are we?

We use the word pundit (meaning expert) to describe an expert, particularly in sports broadcasting. It's an Indian word.
Using your logic, aren't we saying that all Indians are experts on Soccer tactics?

sochin101
10th February 09, 10:07 AM
He threw in another strawman here Sochin. The use of force matrix, spectrum, continuum, etc is used by officers world wide. They are guidelines on how to deal with specific levels of force as I'm sure you've figured out. They don't pertain to civilians. Furthermore TLH could always refer to Graham v. Connor for the reasonableness standard of using force against a resisting individual.
I ignored it, as I asked for a list of professions who had the right to abuse...


Also, his example is crap. If someone is dumping trash upon his property, it can be considered criminal mischief or illegal dumping (ha!) He can tell them to stop, however since a local/state POLICY is being violated, he should call the POLICE so we can deal with the offender.

Just because that person is dumping trash in the yard doesn't mean he's going to get the ASP. Chances are he's just being a dick to his neighbor, so he'll hold paper. If he wants to take it further when we tell him to cease and desist then we will respond with the Graham v. Connor reasonableness standard to the level of force that we encounter from that individual.
Dude, if he calls the police, you're going to see his weed farm in his yard n' shit...

TheLordHumungus
10th February 09, 02:14 PM
He threw in another strawman here Sochin. The use of force matrix, spectrum, continuum, etc is used by officers world wide. They are guidelines on how to deal with specific levels of force as I'm sure you've figured out. They don't pertain to civilians. Furthermore TLH could always refer to Graham v. Connor for the reasonableness standard of using force against a resisting individual.

That's exactly my point. They don't pertain to civilians, thus police have SPECIAL rights to use violence on others.


Also, his example is crap. If someone is dumping trash upon his property, it can be considered criminal mischief or illegal dumping (ha!) He can tell them to stop, however since a local/state POLICY is being violated, he should call the POLICE so we can deal with the offender.

You're saying the same thing I am. As a "civilian", I am apparently not supposed to take care of my own problems. I can ask my neighbor to stop. But if he refuses, my only legal option is to get on the phone and squeal to the police. They may use violence upon him if they feel the need because they have special dispensation to do so. It's Weber's 'monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force'.


Just because that person is dumping trash in the yard doesn't mean he's going to get the ASP. Chances are he's just being a dick to his neighbor, so he'll hold paper. If he wants to take it further when we tell him to cease and desist then we will respond with the Graham v. Connor reasonableness standard to the level of force that we encounter from that individual.

As long as you're there to take care of us. How do we go a day without you guys to iron our problems out. I see now that you and Hobbes are right and that all interpersonal conflict that may conceivably lead to a physical altercation should be handled by agents of the state.

TheLordHumungus
10th February 09, 02:20 PM
When 'chav' was put into the OED in 2005, I remember the confusion over the etymology of the word.
Some thought it was from Council House And Violent. Some thought it was an Anglo-Romany loan word for child (chavi), as chavs tend to be young.
Some, much more recently, got totally confused, talked out their arses and assumed it was some kind of slight against the poor Romany people...


We have lots of Romany loan words. Mush (mouth) is one. When someone says "shut your mush" we aren't telling all Romanies to be quiet are we?

We use the word pundit (meaning expert) to describe an expert, particularly in sports broadcasting. It's an Indian word.
Using your logic, aren't we saying that all Indians are experts on Soccer tactics?

In the case of mush, you're using their word for mouth to mean mouth. In the case of chav, you're using their word for child to mean lower class criminal hooligan. That's why it's a slight. It has a very negative connotation.

TheLordHumungus
10th February 09, 02:25 PM
Funny. I'm usually a pro-active bulwark against racism in the fucktards I "pr0t3ct and sirv."

Just last night a mexican manager at Walmart repeatedly called the police due to black people shopping (at Walmart? Shopping? Get the fuck out!). After a series of practical suggestions relayed via Dispatch, I hear at one point: "Ok...the manager did check their I.D.s against their credit cards, and they are who they say they are, but there are still two more in the store!"

You know what I did?

Nothing.

Well, I relayed patronizing customer service advice via Dispatch...but that's it.

And when she called back about OMG MOAR BLACK PEOPLE SHOPPING AT NIGHT!!11?

Again, nothing.

You know what I do when someone reports a black guy walking down the street?

Nothing.

Sometimes I drive by and conclude radio traffic with: "Yes, a black guy is indeed walking down the street."

BUT ZOMG IT NEVER MADE TEH NOOZ SO IT'S NOT TRUE AND LORDHUMUNGUS CNA'T COPY AND PASTE PROOF OF STUFF

Classist, yes. There are definately low classes of people. They usually steal shit from other classes. Of course, honestly, TLH is giving me food for thought. Maybe I shouldn't care about theft anymore. Hrmmm. When his big bouncer's mag-light is burglarized from his firebird, I'll be like: "What? Poor people don't need illumination? I suggest you consider the possible class of he who needed your property, SIR." You misunderstood my post. I did indeed say that you say things that are classist, however I said nothing about you making racist comments. I was calling the use of the word chav by Soichin borderline racist (and definitely classist).

Zendetta
10th February 09, 02:31 PM
That's why it's a slight. It has a very negative connotation.

Get bent. Its self inflicted, a term of dysfunctional identity like "Thug Nigga!!!".

Your wannabe class warfare is ridiculous.

Trying to argue that the lower classes somehow have the right to be dysfunctional criminals out of a PC respect for their "culture" is a middle-class white boy conceit.

Kein Haar
10th February 09, 03:31 PM
You misunderstood my post. I did indeed say that you say things that are classist, however I said nothing about you making racist comments. I was calling the use of the word chav by Soichin borderline racist (and definitely classist).

Oh, ok.

Oh, just yesterday....In hallway...typical conversation I overheard:

Public Defender: "WHYYYYYYY did you not attend the court assigned programs for substance abuse and anger management? Sweet mother of god why???"

Lower class criminal hooligan douche: "Uhh....ok...on the 26th I hadda do dat....uhhh....then on the 28th I hadda do dat.... and then...."

PD: "Do you think a judge is going to believe that YOU.....that YOU had very important prior obligations???"

LCD: "What da judge gonna do?"

PD: "Now??? How should I know? You had 6 months to take care of 20 hours of easy bullshit."

Later I see douche crying about his sentence. In his hoodie and lugz. In court. That's what he wears to make a good impression after his violation of bail bond. Good stuff.

I should get my public defender friend in here. Shed some light on this classism discussion. Of course, she's been told to keep her blood pressure in check, and only let steam come out of her ears for no more than 8 hours per day.

Zendetta
10th February 09, 03:56 PM
LOL. Public Defenders. An old Girlfriend of mine was one in SC (she was actually like a cute blonde version of Hunter Thompson's Samoan Attorney. And a TKD blackbbelt!).

Probably the most stretched-thin, overworked, underappreciated job ever.

Equipoise
10th February 09, 04:27 PM
TLH -

1. The reasonable force that we use to make an arrest is not violence. Stop sensationalizing.

2. You can take care of your own problems provided that you don't violate an individual's fourth amendment rights by seizing his freedom with a violent act or destruction of his property. It's for that person's safety as well as his. The individual perpetrating the crime still is entitled to his rights despite the fact that he's infringing upon yours. Therefore the government has us to police those rights instead of having the Bow Street Runners enacting street justice.

Would you want another one of YOU enacting YOUR OWN warped law enforcement ideologies and principals on you? I doubt it.

elipson
10th February 09, 04:29 PM
That's exactly my point. They don't pertain to civilians, thus police have SPECIAL rights to use violence on others.

Cops also have special expectations on them. Like the expectation not to become unprofessional, not to let their personal feelings itnerfere with their work, and of course the expectation to run into a gun fight when everyone else is running away. Lets not forget that one. When your job description includes placing yourself in harms way, you can expect a little extra compensation/protection.

TheLordHumungus
10th February 09, 04:34 PM
Get bent. Its self inflicted, a term of dysfunctional identity like "Thug Nigga!!!".

Yeah, those Romani really asked for us to turn their word for child into a word now meaning hoodlum. That's what they get.

And I shouldn't have to bother explaining that the example you gave is not one that was self inflicted. That came from the white culture that was keeping them enslaved.


Your wannabe class warfare is ridiculous.

Trying to argue that the lower classes somehow have the right to be dysfunctional criminals out of a PC respect for their "culture" is a middle-class white boy conceit.

Class warfare is quite real. Imagining it doesn't exist is a privilege for those who are comfortable and entitled enough to imagine that everyone is treated as well as they are. It's just that those low class/poor ppl can't behave.

I'm not saying that the poor have a right to be criminal, I'm saying that the entire system is stacked in favor of the 'haves' and against the 'have nots'. I don't think that the prisons are full of the poor because they're more dangerous to society, but because they can't afford the same representation as the wealthy.

Equipoise
10th February 09, 04:41 PM
I'm not saying that the poor have a right to be criminal, I'm saying that the entire system is stacked in favor of the 'haves' and against the 'have nots'. I don't think that the prisons are full of the poor because they're more dangerous to society, but because they can't afford the same representation as the wealthy.

I don't think anyone's going to disagree with you on this generalized statement, however it's not germane to this discussion.

Zendetta
10th February 09, 04:45 PM
Actually, I was about to.

There are more poor people in prison because they commit more crimes, especially violent crimes.

AND some may have a tendency towards poverty because they romanticize thuggery and disregard hard work, thrift, and impulse control. You'll see more "Stop Snitching" t-shirts in the ghetto than in the white-picket fence suburb for a reason.

Crazy, I know.

TheLordHumungus
10th February 09, 04:47 PM
TLH -

1. The reasonable force that we use to make an arrest is not violence. Stop sensationalizing.

2. You can take care of your own problems provided that you don't violate an individual's fourth amendment rights by seizing his freedom with a violent act or destruction of his property. It's for that person's safety as well as his. The individual perpetrating the crime still is entitled to his rights despite the fact that he's infringing upon yours. Therefore the government has us to police those rights instead of having the Bow Street Runners enacting street justice.

Would you want another one of YOU enacting YOUR OWN warped law enforcement ideologies and principals on you? I doubt it.

1. The OED defines violence as "behaviour involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill." You never perform actions on another meant to hurt/damage/kill them?

2. This all works on the premise that you're more fit as a cop to decide when a person's rights apply, and when they need to be restrained/imprisoned/killed. I'm saying I have no more faith in the judgment of some random guy if he's wearing a badge and uniform. I don't think you're above the average joe.

TheLordHumungus
10th February 09, 04:51 PM
Actually, I was about to.

There are more poor people in prison because they commit more crimes, especially violent crimes.

AND some may have a tendency towards poverty because they romanticize thuggery and disregard hard work, thrift, and impulse control. You'll see more "Stop Snitching" t-shirts in the ghetto than in the white-picket fence suburb for a reason.

Crazy, I know.

Aren't they missing you at the Klan meeting? Or maybe the RNC?

TheLordHumungus
10th February 09, 04:53 PM
I don't think anyone's going to disagree with you on this generalized statement, however it's not germane to this discussion.

No, it isn't. I was just responding to someone else's interpretation of my beliefs.

lant3rn
10th February 09, 04:56 PM
I don't know why you guys keep arguing with LH, He is obviously only interested in reinforcing his preconceptions instead of branching out from them.

TheLordHumungus
10th February 09, 05:16 PM
Later I see douche crying about his sentence. In his hoodie and lugz. In court. That's what he wears to make a good impression after his violation of bail bond. Good stuff.
A hoodie and lugz?!?! The audacity. Doesn't he know that to look respectable you need to wear the same kinds of clothes the judge would wear to some high end soiree. You're not at all classist.

And besides formal, does it also have to be western? Would a kimono or a dashiki be acceptable?

TheLordHumungus
10th February 09, 05:20 PM
I don't know why you guys keep arguing with LH, He is obviously only interesting in reinforcing his preconceptions instead of branching out from them.

Because changing my mind isn't the point. The same way that I don't expect to argue with equipoise or hein and convince them to leave the force (though that is fun to imagine). Sometimes the point of a debate is to debate, and not to talk someone into something.

lant3rn
10th February 09, 05:24 PM
Because changing my mind isn't the point. The same way that I don't expect to argue with equipoise or hein and convince them to leave the force (though that is fun to imagine). Sometimes the point of a debate is to debate, and not to talk someone into something.

you don't understand what I mean, debates have winers. You should look at this more as a discussion and not assume your right.

Kein Haar
10th February 09, 05:29 PM
No, it's not "audacity". It's dreary, typical, and pathetic when they don't understand what the greater culture expects of them and continue butting their heads against reality. Both in government and private sector.

His dress and body language says: "I'm not someone you can trust with your time, money, or property." It speaks of casual slop and comfort, not vigilance and discipline....in a time and place when you MIGHT WANT TO PROJECT AN IMAGE OF THE LATTER FOR YOUR OWN SAKE. Or better fucking yet, ACTUALLY DO what the image implies in the first place. But, yeah, it's not about the LUGZ themselves, it's about what it [accurately] implied....as usual.

And his laissez-faire approach to the simple terms of his release confirmed that....indubitably.

It boiled down to simple choices. REALLLLLY simple ones.

No?

He was only fucking *himself*, you know. It's not like the judge went home fuming after someone "got the best of him" for not going to don't-beat-your-girlfriend-class. Dime-a-dozen irresponsible bullshit. Douche-bag just went back to jail for a couple weeks, and everyone else moved on with life.

Zendetta
10th February 09, 06:23 PM
No, it's not "audacity". It's dreary, typical, and pathetic when they don't understand what the greater culture expects of them and continue butting their heads against reality.

You classist bastard. Show some respect for diversity, jerk.

Equipoise
10th February 09, 06:38 PM
1. The OED defines violence as "behaviour involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill." You never perform actions on another meant to hurt/damage/kill them?

You can play the semantic game all you want, however violence has a different definition in regards to the legislature and law. Furthermore, you're confusing one of the main elements of violence in regards to criminal law which is the mens rea.


2. This all works on the premise that you're more fit as a cop to decide when a person's rights apply, and when they need to be restrained/imprisoned/killed. I'm saying I have no more faith in the judgment of some random guy if he's wearing a badge and uniform. I don't think you're above the average joe.

That paragraph alone shows that you have no idea what you're talking about. We're not some random guys and gals who just show up with advice rather than knowledge. Besides the general academy, police work is a learning process which builds and educates the officer. I can quote numerous case laws, various statutes and how to handle specific situations from experience. So can many other experienced LEO's. The fact that you think you can do the job without training or experience in the same shows your total life inexperience. Do you think you're a world class fighter too? Or that you can do most jobs better than other people with advanced training and experience?

Also, Hein's not being classist, he's being logical. Would you show up in court with your lounge wear? Or have you shown up in a suit or at least your shirt tucked in. Furthermore, the court in the same manner as work and even job interviews are FORMAL. This means that you show respect to the judge, boss, future employer by dressing appropriately. You don't have to swagger in with a Jones and New York suit, however you can show up with decent attire. Even Wal-Mart sells sport coats and when you see Johnny Thug show up to court in ghetto wear, but drive away in a custom painted Caprice on 22's, you know he could afford a suit with little effort.

Lant3rn- It's not so much that we expect to win/convince him he's wrong, we're just destroying the illogical subterfuge with valid points in the Bullshido manner so that future members can look at this thread in a few months or so and see that this site focuses on reality and information rather than nonsense and illogic.

Doritosaurus Chex
10th February 09, 11:05 PM
Debating isn't about convincing the opposition to change their views. In that case, everyone in this argument is a loser.

You win by convincing more members of the audience/panel/lurkers to take your stance after listening to both sides of the argument.

TheLordHumungus
11th February 09, 01:14 AM
It's about showing respect? How fragile is your self esteem if you feel how I dress is in some way connected to my opinion of you. I know when I get out of the dojo all sweaty and nasty in a pair of jeans and black hoody, that's my way of saying "fuck you" to everyone I interact with until I bother to get a shower.

Okay, again I ask whether a kimono or dashiki would be acceptable. If society at large wants them to dress in a way that makes them seem wealthier to be respectable, that's just classism. If it needs to be dockers and a sports coat, then we can add xenophobia/racism to the list.

What's weird is that in this case I don't think you're being classist. You're just pointing out what a classist/racist society expects, and that it works in ppl's favor to fit themselves into accepted societal models. Especially within the justice system. Rosa Parks would have had a much easier time if she went along with what was societally accepted. If Ghandi had STFU, he'd have probably been a very successful lawyer. The thing is principle is sometimes more important than personal convenience.

lant3rn
11th February 09, 01:48 AM
@ equipose and KDP
debating over the internet is pointless imo, what are you trying to prove? Instead i like to discuss an issue and try look at as way to expand your thought process, and world view. Be open to what the opposite view point has to say and be prepared to accept to the fact you may be wrong. This makes much more sense to me sine it is far more proactive approach and sharpens your ability to think critically.

@ humungus

I think you missed the point. Yes it is not right to judge someone to harshly on what they wear. But we live "reality" in this little thing called a "soceity" and there are certain traditions which it contains. Dressing nicely for your court date shows respect, both for the judge, yourself, and those in attendance. As well as showing the judge you take what is going on seriously.

First impressions matter, you can believe they don't if you want. Next time you come out of the gym still wearing your grubs, go try to meet a women and see how far you get...

Oh and its fucking unbelievable how you compare what Rossa Parks and Ghandi did to some fucktard who shows up to court in a hoody. Unfuckingbeleivable.

Your such a rebel LH, you show this oppressive society and break free from the suit coat of oppression.

TheLordHumungus
11th February 09, 02:54 AM
You can play the semantic game all you want, however violence has a different definition in regards to the legislature and law. Furthermore, you're confusing one of the main elements of violence in regards to criminal law which is the mens rea.

That paragraph alone shows that you have no idea what you're talking about. We're not some random guys and gals who just show up with advice rather than knowledge. Besides the general academy, police work is a learning process which builds and educates the officer. I can quote numerous case laws, various statutes and how to handle specific situations from experience. So can many other experienced LEO's. The fact that you think you can do the job without training or experience in the same shows your total life inexperience. Do you think you're a world class fighter too? Or that you can do most jobs better than other people with advanced training and experience?


No doubt, we actually are in total agreement that under the law what police do isn't considered violence. I understand that legally when I bind someone against their will it's far different than when a cop does. But seeing as I disagree with the necessary existence of a police force, I am not using legal language.

I am saying that I find it unjust that the right of appropriate action has been taken from the individual and given to a policing body. The fact that you are more knowledgeable in regards to a series of statutes invented by a privileged minority in order to protect their interests from the less privileged mass of society is not in any way something I find convincing when it comes to you rightness in settling interpersonal disputes.

And I have no desire to do your job. I am happy to resolve my own conflicts, and aid in resolving those I am close to. I see no need to settle matters for everyone else.


Also, Hein's not being classist, he's being logical. Would you show up in court with your lounge wear? Or have you shown up in a suit or at least your shirt tucked in. Furthermore, the court in the same manner as work and even job interviews are FORMAL. This means that you show respect to the judge, boss, future employer by dressing appropriately. You don't have to swagger in with a Jones and New York suit, however you can show up with decent attire. Even Wal-Mart sells sport coats and when you see Johnny Thug show up to court in ghetto wear, but drive away in a custom painted Caprice on 22's, you know he could afford a suit with little effort.

Lant3rn- It's not so much that we expect to win/convince him he's wrong, we're just destroying the illogical subterfuge with valid points in the Bullshido manner so that future members can look at this thread in a few months or so and see that this site focuses on reality and information rather than nonsense and illogic.

And while I have no real interaction with and thus no opinion of the man, I'll agree that in this case Hein may not be classist. However, the view that your attire amounts to your respect of those around you is. What's laughable is that I've seen countless officers show up to court in their work clothes (or uniform), but I suppose my Dickies are less formal than you spiffy blue outfit. Why not a nice polo shirt?

TheLordHumungus
11th February 09, 02:59 AM
@Lant3rn.

While I can take little you say seriously considering your view that ppl in the ghetto are more antisocial and thuggish than their suburban counterparts, I will say that hitting on women just after working out isn't a terrible idea. Many females are less than repulsed by a man that has the discipline and desire to maintain a level of physical fitness. Give it a shot at the next Aryan Nation meeting. You'll make some white supremacist very happy.

Steve
11th February 09, 03:06 AM
@ equipose and KDP
debating over the internet is pointless imo, what are you trying to prove? Instead i like to discuss an issue and try look at as way to expand your thought process, and world view. Be open to what the opposite view point has to say and be prepared to accept to the fact you may be wrong. This makes much more sense to me sine it is far more proactive approach and sharpens your ability to think critically.

So it's not pointless, is it?

Doritosaurus Chex
11th February 09, 03:17 AM
@ equipose and KDP
debating over the internet is pointless imo, what are you trying to prove? Instead i like to discuss an issue and try look at as way to expand your thought process, and world view. Be open to what the opposite view point has to say and be prepared to accept to the fact you may be wrong. This makes much more sense to me sine it is far more proactive approach and sharpens your ability to think critically.

I don't think debating online is pointless as long as the topic isn't fully retarded. You have the same slim chance of changing the opposition's opinion in a live debate than you do online. It's nice to think that discussion will lead to being open to different perspectives, but it will rarely happen.

I think the people who truly benefit from online discussions are people like me, the ones would rather take a neutral stance. Even though I'm not an active participant, my opinions are swayed by each argument presented regardless of the medium. In this thread, I've found that the LEOs have been more convincing than TLH. If you really want to measure a winner in debate, you have to see how many people adopt your point of view.

lant3rn
11th February 09, 03:24 AM
@Lant3rn.

While I can take little you say seriously considering your view that ppl in the ghetto are more antisocial and thuggish than their suburban counterparts, I will say that hitting on women just after working out isn't a terrible idea. Many females are less than repulsed by a man that has the discipline and desire to maintain a level of physical fitness. Give it a shot at the next Aryan Nation meeting. You'll make some white supremacist very happy.

I do not mention anything concerning this
ppl in the ghetto are more antisocial and thuggish than their suburban counterparts

Add the hominem, up your ass.

lant3rn
11th February 09, 03:26 AM
So it's not pointless, is it?

I think i might have a different opinion of what debate means.

Robot Jesus
11th February 09, 03:30 AM
while a dashiki would be less than ideal I believe it would be appropriate. It's still formal wear. a kimono would be awesome but would not really work and it's more ceremonial garb in a different culture.

also you comment that the accused would be forced to wear what the judge would wear to a fancy soirée. a tux would be out of place in a court proceeding.

I think you do have a point. we do live in a classist society, but there is a reason for classism. is it better to be high class or low class? and if you are low class why is that.

now you would probably argue that the man is keeping them down. I do acknowledge that that is a factor, I would put the emphasis of causation on an ineffective socialization.

I blame the Idea of thug life. Portions of hip hop culture are married to the idea that keeping it real means being a criminal. why is this held to be the ideal?

the root of the problem is cyclic, young children are not taught money management, credit management, ect. they also selfassociate with their class.
It's a common phenomenon, a good example is my grandmother. she often comments that "people like us don't " go to university, Paris, ect. what she is somewhat confused about is that social mobility has been achieved in my family. my grandfather was a janitor, my father is the CFO of an oil company. how did this happen? my dad got a degree in accounting, when to work, built up contacts, started his one consulting firm yadda yadda yadda. basically doing the opposite of what my grandmother thought he should do.

another example less personal, a few years ago I was on public transit with a friend of mine trying to buy weed. we met a pair of fellows about our age who looked like they were selling (in Calgary that means fellows early to mid twenties). when our studies where mentioned they asked us why we were on the train and not driving in our BMW's. this belies a common misconception that I have also read about in my studies, only rich people go to university. if this is as persistent a meme as it appears then it’s no wonder social mobility is as rare as it is. People are socialized to be self defeating. People like me don't go to university. People like me don’t graduate high school because that not being street. I don't succeed so it's either a) my fault or b) the system either failing to allow you to be successful. I would say it's both; firstly you did not take the steps necessary to succeed, but you acted in that manner because you where taught to.

I'm not saying everyone must act white, but doing good in school has become "acting white". and that is a defective and sabotaging trait.


this leads to other issues, now the only forms of social mobility an individual observes for his culture is thought athletics or crime. It is inevitable that a sub culture will develop for those who don't have the necessary ability to be athletes. and yes there is a criminal subculture, we didn’t make up the don't snitch tee shirt, they sell quite well.

in summation it's much easier to be satisfied with what’s available that to change how things work.

TheLordHumungus
11th February 09, 03:35 AM
I do not mention anything concerning this

Add the hominem, up your ass.

Actually, you're right. My apologies, I was mistaken. I mistook you for another poster while typing under the influence. While we may disagree, it was wrong to accuse you of making racist comments that derived from someone else. I shall indeed add the hominem up my ass.

Steve
11th February 09, 03:44 AM
I think i might have a different opinion of what debate means.

You think? I quoted your own post. You think you might disagree with yourself?

Steve
11th February 09, 03:46 AM
Don't be coy, discussing and debating are exactly the same thing if everyone is on equal ground (like on the internet).

Kein Haar
11th February 09, 07:38 AM
Why not a nice polo shirt?

I love how your rhetorical questions always have answers.

#1. Some departments do allow that for OFF-DUTY attire.

#2. Being in uniform is kind of nice when you're ON-DUTY because it's kind of impractical responding to emergencies if you have to dress and undress.

Kein Haar
11th February 09, 07:55 AM
How fragile is your self esteem if you feel how I dress is in some way connected to my opinion of you.

Your lack of comprehension regarding self-marketability (vis-a-vis non-verbal communications), probably explains why you wash dishes and shit, huh? I don't mean to denigrate an honest job, but you do seem smarter and more capable. I mean that. I don't mean in terms of income or orthodox education neccesarily, but taking personal satisfaction (in relation to your particular skills and talents) in something you're bound to for 40 hours per week.

The enterprising and disciplined seem to find themselves doing something which pushes their boundaries a bit. But getting tangled up in these over-wrought libertarian philosophies almost seems compulsive. And we know compulsions are behavioral red-herrings...avoidance behaviors. Distractions and excuses from self actualization....whatever that may be for you.

Humans are into this non-verbal communication stuff. We do it all the time with everything we do whether we choose to accept the perception of other people or not.

It's like a 1%er showing up to a funeral or wedding of some culturally conventional people with his ink and colors blazing while everyone else is dressing/behaving understatedly to communicate: "Today is not about me." So what is the good ol' Pagan neccesarily saying then? "FTW, look at me! Listen to my straight pipes!"

See how this works? Is it culturally relative? Absoloutely. Culture exists. It also exists here, and nobody is blind to it.

Let me also premptively respond to a point I know you'll make just to have something contrarian to say: "Yes, but there's a place and time...and you know it. You just choose to camoflouge your denial in a principle."

EuropIan
11th February 09, 08:27 AM
#2. Being in uniform is kind of nice when you're ON-DUTY because it's kind of impractical responding to emergencies if you have to dress and undress.

See Batman's costume changing habits vs. Superman's changing habits.

TheLordHumungus
11th February 09, 02:11 PM
Your lack of comprehension regarding self-marketability (vis-a-vis non-verbal communications), probably explains why you wash dishes and shit, huh? I don't mean to denigrate an honest job, but you do seem smarter and more capable. I mean that. I don't mean in terms of income or orthodox education neccesarily, but taking personal satisfaction (in relation to your particular skills and talents) in something you're bound to for 40 hours per week.

The enterprising and disciplined seem to find themselves doing something which pushes their boundaries a bit. But getting tangled up in these over-wrought libertarian philosophies almost seems compulsive. And we know compulsions are behavioral red-herrings...avoidance behaviors. Distractions and excuses from self actualization....whatever that may be for you.

Humans are into this non-verbal communication stuff. We do it all the time with everything we do whether we choose to accept the perception of other people or not.

It's like a 1%er showing up to a funeral or wedding of some culturally conventional people with his ink and colors blazing while everyone else is dressing/behaving understatedly to communicate: "Today is not about me." So what is the good ol' Pagan neccesarily saying then? "FTW, look at me! Listen to my straight pipes!"

See how this works? Is it culturally relative? Absoloutely. Culture exists. It also exists here, and nobody is blind to it.

Let me also premptively respond to a point I know you'll make just to have something contrarian to say: "Yes, but there's a place and time...and you know it. You just choose to camoflouge your denial in a principle."

I don't gain satisfaction from work at all. It is merely a concession I make to my own survival. This puts me in a position of not caring a whit about what that job happens to be. I honestly can't think of work I would find more rewarding than digging a ditch. This does have the distinct advantage of making self-marketability totally unnecessary.

And I don't think having an anti-state worldview means I lack self actualization, anymore than the fact that you've wrapped yourself so tightly in the belief of a necessary state means you do. Hell, I make necessary concessions like participating in wage slavery. Thus I'm not all that radical, I just am able to see the bars on my cage. You either can't see yours, or they look like needed protection to you. You're then radical enough to go out and devote 40+ hours a week to making sure everyone else is in their place too. I mean, coping with an unjust system is one thing. Throwing yourself fully into it seems like an avoidance behavior.

TheLordHumungus
11th February 09, 02:23 PM
while a dashiki would be less than ideal I believe it would be appropriate. It's still formal wear. a kimono would be awesome but would not really work and it's more ceremonial garb in a different culture.

also you comment that the accused would be forced to wear what the judge would wear to a fancy soirée. a tux would be out of place in a court proceeding.

I think you do have a point. we do live in a classist society, but there is a reason for classism. is it better to be high class or low class? and if you are low class why is that.

now you would probably argue that the man is keeping them down. I do acknowledge that that is a factor, I would put the emphasis of causation on an ineffective socialization.

I blame the Idea of thug life. Portions of hip hop culture are married to the idea that keeping it real means being a criminal. why is this held to be the ideal?

the root of the problem is cyclic, young children are not taught money management, credit management, ect. they also selfassociate with their class.
It's a common phenomenon, a good example is my grandmother. she often comments that "people like us don't " go to university, Paris, ect. what she is somewhat confused about is that social mobility has been achieved in my family. my grandfather was a janitor, my father is the CFO of an oil company. how did this happen? my dad got a degree in accounting, when to work, built up contacts, started his one consulting firm yadda yadda yadda. basically doing the opposite of what my grandmother thought he should do.

another example less personal, a few years ago I was on public transit with a friend of mine trying to buy weed. we met a pair of fellows about our age who looked like they were selling (in Calgary that means fellows early to mid twenties). when our studies where mentioned they asked us why we were on the train and not driving in our BMW's. this belies a common misconception that I have also read about in my studies, only rich people go to university. if this is as persistent a meme as it appears then it’s no wonder social mobility is as rare as it is. People are socialized to be self defeating. People like me don't go to university. People like me don’t graduate high school because that not being street. I don't succeed so it's either a) my fault or b) the system either failing to allow you to be successful. I would say it's both; firstly you did not take the steps necessary to succeed, but you acted in that manner because you where taught to.

I'm not saying everyone must act white, but doing good in school has become "acting white". and that is a defective and sabotaging trait.


this leads to other issues, now the only forms of social mobility an individual observes for his culture is thought athletics or crime. It is inevitable that a sub culture will develop for those who don't have the necessary ability to be athletes. and yes there is a criminal subculture, we didn’t make up the don't snitch tee shirt, they sell quite well.

in summation it's much easier to be satisfied with what’s available that to change how things work.

You make a lot of good points. My main disagreement is that capitalism requires a vast majority of the population be poor while a very small minority are wealthy. It's how it works. If every single one of the poor were to go to college and get higher degrees, it still wouldn't be possible for everyone to be wealthy. Their must be low level workers whose labor feeds the profits of the wealthy.

What I'm confused about is if you're dad is an oil company CFO, why aren't you the type seen to go to college. You don't have to answer personal questions, I'm just curious.

As for whether it's better to be high or low class, that's tricky. It's more comfortable being high class. But I don't think I could enjoy it knowing that what I have comes at the expense of others. But My views on that are fairly marxist.

Shawarma
11th February 09, 02:26 PM
...not really. Most people in the US are not "poor" but rather middle class, and even the poor are massively better off than poor people in developing countries. Also, social democratic nations like France, Germany and the Scandinavian nations are indeed capitalistic but attempt to even the playing field by taxing the wealthy and spending it on social instutitions to benefit the poor.

Quite a black and white kind of guy, ain't you?

TheLordHumungus
11th February 09, 02:31 PM
It's like a 1%er showing up to a funeral or wedding of some culturally conventional people with his ink and colors blazing while everyone else is dressing/behaving understatedly to communicate: "Today is not about me." So what is the good ol' Pagan neccesarily saying then? "FTW, look at me! Listen to my straight pipes!"

Hey, their image is important to their job. And their colors are their uniforms. Nobody would respect their authority if they didn't maintain a certain image. Surely, as a cop you can understand that.

Though I'm sure at a police funeral nobody would be thoughtless enough to wear their uniforms. I'm sure everyone is in low key civillian wear that says "today is not about me".

elipson
11th February 09, 02:50 PM
My main disagreement is that capitalism requires a vast majority of the population be poor while a very small minority are wealthy. It's how it works.
Define poor. And also define Wealthy. And then describe why it is that this "requirement" is present in all capitalist systems.


I don't gain satisfaction from work at all. It is merely a concession I make to my own survival. This puts me in a position of not caring a whit about what that job happens to be. I honestly can't think of work I would find more rewarding than digging a ditch.
Hahaha, this guy is funny. He isn't even a very good Marxist.
Sounds more like you've taken the easy way and given up, instead of trying to find something you actually enjoy. Or maybe you enjoy digging ditches a lot. I can understand that because I like physical jobs too.

Equipoise
11th February 09, 03:36 PM
Hey, their image is important to their job. And their colors are their uniforms. Nobody would respect their authority if they didn't maintain a certain image. Surely, as a cop you can understand that.

Though I'm sure at a police funeral nobody would be thoughtless enough to wear their uniforms. I'm sure everyone is in low key civillian wear that says "today is not about me".

You're complete lack of knowledge, logic, taste and social graces is pathetic. It's one thing to argue a point that you feel strongly about with logical points, but constantly sensationalizing, drawing in extraneous/irrelevant variables and outright lying is the method of the uneducated. Go travel the world, go to school, do something to enrich yourself and then come back to this board. As it stands right now you have absolutely nothing to contribute.

Kein Haar
11th February 09, 03:37 PM
I honestly can't think of work I would find more rewarding than digging a ditch.

And yet he's still in the tavern...

It's called intertia.

Fine. At least own it. Jeez.

As for recognizing bars on the cage or whatever....here's how simple it was for me. When I was 10, I saw an episode of COPS where a K9 was deployed. I thought that looked like the coolest fucking job EVER. I batted around various other things perhaps relevant to my education after college, but anything else remained a distant second.

So here I am. ALLLLLMOST doing what I've badly wanted to do for 20 years....just cuz it looked bad-ass (and still does). Nobody ordered me to do it, and nobody said I couldn't...so I did.

Maybe the cage is actually your depression....? Cuz despite how romantic you try to make it sound, it's actually unremarkable. People like that tend to have plenty of time to rationalize it, to boot. They don't like how they feel (I doubt you actually do), but they believe the way they think itsn't flawed. But the thought patterns are the very problem. You can get help to change those thought patterns if you want it.

Truculent Sheep
11th February 09, 03:42 PM
And I don't think having an anti-state worldview means I lack self actualization, anymore than the fact that you've wrapped yourself so tightly in the belief of a necessary state means you do. Hell, I make necessary concessions like participating in wage slavery. Thus I'm not all that radical, I just am able to see the bars on my cage. You either can't see yours, or they look like needed protection to you. You're then radical enough to go out and devote 40+ hours a week to making sure everyone else is in their place too. I mean, coping with an unjust system is one thing. Throwing yourself fully into it seems like an avoidance behavior.

Sociocide really needs its own 'Pseuds Corner' section, where each week's most pretentious and absurd post gets nominated and then has the piss ripped out of it.

Equipoise
11th February 09, 03:44 PM
I second.

elipson
11th February 09, 03:58 PM
Maybe the cage is actually your depression....? Cuz despite how romantic you try to make it sound, it's actually unremarkable. People like that tend to have plenty of time to rationalize it, to boot. They don't like how they feel (I doubt you actually do), but they believe the way they think itsn't flawed. But the thought patterns are the very problem. You can get help to change those thought patterns if you want it.

Wow.

Thread winner.

SFGOON
11th February 09, 04:44 PM
This has become sick. And sad. And hilarious.

elipson
11th February 09, 05:02 PM
So it's the intellectual equivolent to 2 girls 1 cup?

Robot Jesus
11th February 09, 07:03 PM
You make a lot of good points. My main disagreement is that capitalism requires a vast majority of the population be poor while a very small minority are wealthy. It's how it works. If every single one of the poor were to go to college and get higher degrees, it still wouldn't be possible for everyone to be wealthy. Their must be low level workers whose labor feeds the profits of the wealthy.

not really, If you think about it is everyone went to post secondary and everyone was equally skilled than the law of one price would rein. There is no reason why there needs to be an underclass, some people make decisions that make them more valuable to society in that they create more wealth. if everyone made those decisions that a great deal more wealth would be created and everyone would be rich. just like how if you compare livening standards now to what they where 100 years ago just about everyone would be considered rich.
but don’t get me wrong I think the rich get too much respect in society, especially in the realm of criminal justice. blue collar crime are mostly crimes of opportunity, or crimes of passion; whereas white collar crimes are almost exclusively carefully thought out cons. It stands to reason the punishment for white collar crime should be severe, because the perpetrators have had taken the time to consider their options and do a cost benefits analysis and have concluded that this is the best course of action. these are smart men and women so a harsh punishment is the best way to deal with them. in crimes of passion and crimes of opportunity the perpetrator probably didn’t take the time to consider the consequences of their actions so it’s unlikely that any punishment would have a serious deterrent effect.
also in the case of the courts, a poor person gets a public defender or a student representative, a rich man gets a skilled lawyer, when the state goes to court they get a district attorney to represent the "people". the system is skewed in disfavour of the poor. this means that people are unequal before the law. do i think that more poor people go to jail than should? yes. do i think most crimes are committed by the poor? yes. the appeals process allows for this slight to be corrected somewhat, but i contend that for the most part the system works.



What I'm confused about is if you're dad is an oil company CFO, why aren't you the type seen to go to college. You don't have to answer personal questions, I'm just curious.

because my grandmother still sees us as lower class and hasn’t grasped that we are actually quite well off; she’s getting a little batty in her old age.


As for whether it's better to be high or low class, that's tricky. It's more comfortable being high class. But I don't think I could enjoy it knowing that what I have comes at the expense of others. But My views on that are fairly marxist.
but barring questions of how you got it, having shit is better than not having shit.

TheLordHumungus
12th February 09, 12:55 AM
And yet he's still in the tavern...

It's called intertia.

Fine. At least own it. Jeez.

As for recognizing bars on the cage or whatever....here's how simple it was for me. When I was 10, I saw an episode of COPS where a K9 was deployed. I thought that looked like the coolest fucking job EVER. I batted around various other things perhaps relevant to my education after college, but anything else remained a distant second.

So here I am. ALLLLLMOST doing what I've badly wanted to do for 20 years....just cuz it looked bad-ass (and still does). Nobody ordered me to do it, and nobody said I couldn't...so I did.

Maybe the cage is actually your depression....? Cuz despite how romantic you try to make it sound, it's actually unremarkable. People like that tend to have plenty of time to rationalize it, to boot. They don't like how they feel (I doubt you actually do), but they believe the way they think itsn't flawed. But the thought patterns are the very problem. You can get help to change those thought patterns if you want it.

Oh, I'm not depressed. I just don't take get joy from work. I tend to be happy while working, but the joy derives from other things. What I do outside of work is what I really enjoy. Judo, reading, travel, etc.

And while I of course would rather not be held to what I consider ridiculous and unjust laws, being aware they're made and enforced by petty ppl is actually freeing. I know ppl who would feel bad about breaking even an unjust law. They feel that illegal=immoral. I feel no need to obey any law I disagree with unless I am in real danger of being arrested or fined for it. And in the case of truly unjust laws, sometimes it's worth the penalty to disobey it.

To clarify, I don't mean that ditch digging is my favorite activity. I just mean that it is just as satisfying as many jobs I can imagine (for example, serving drinks) and more satisfying than others (I'm sure you can guess). When I was a kid I thought being a priest would be awesome, but well before I was old enough for that job I realized that childhood dreams are sometimes misguided.

TheLordHumungus
12th February 09, 01:01 AM
Define poor. And also define Wealthy. And then describe why it is that this "requirement" is present in all capitalist systems.

I don't really have the time or inclination to give you marxism/capitalism 101. If you have trouble finding a primer online, I'll try and provide you a link.



Hahaha, this guy is funny. He isn't even a very good Marxist.
Sounds more like you've taken the easy way and given up, instead of trying to find something you actually enjoy. Or maybe you enjoy digging ditches a lot. I can understand that because I like physical jobs too.

If you don't understand why a permanent underclass is a requirement of a capitalist economy, I don't think I'll take your criticism of my marxist understanding too seriously.

TheLordHumungus
12th February 09, 01:04 AM
but barring questions of how you got it, having shit is better than not having shit.

But having excessive shit means someone else who needs it does not. Besides, I'm not personally that into shit. Especially more than I need to get by.

GuiltySpark
12th February 09, 03:03 AM
Oh, I'm not depressed. I just don't take get joy from work. I tend to be happy while working, but the joy derives from other things. What I do outside of work is what I really enjoy. Judo, reading, travel, etc.


Reading, travel, man handling people?

Can I interest you in a short 3 year stint in the Armed Forces?

Plentyof Travel and reading!

TheLordHumungus
12th February 09, 03:33 AM
Reading, travel, man handling people?

Can I interest you in a short 3 year stint in the Armed Forces?

Plentyof Travel and reading!
Actually, I'd really enjoy that part. I just have no ability to take myself seriously as an authority figure. As long as I could remain a private the whole time and not victimize anybody for reasons I disagree with, we'd have a deal.

Except that my issues with authority may become problematic. If someone who seemed competent to do so gave me a reasonable order, I'd have no problem following it. Thing is, it would only take one jackass officer who knew jack shit about what he was doing. He would inevitably give me a stupid order and I would go down for insubordination.

My best friend is a Marine and has assured me that I would last maybe an hour in any kind of military service.

Besides, I'm not really into guns. Despite my buddy's best efforts.

Oh, BTW. Any judo training where you've been stationed?

GuiltySpark
12th February 09, 03:45 AM
MMA, Judo, Kickboxing, Hapkido, Krav Maga.

If you don't like guns thats fine, noooo one will make you doanything you wanna do.
You could always be one of those kids that think they are going to join the Marines and become a hand to hand combat instructor for 20 years.

TheLordHumungus
12th February 09, 03:56 AM
If you don't like guns thats fine, noooo one will make you doanything you wanna do.

I sense sarcasm in your words.


You could always be one of those kids that think they are going to join the Marines and become a hand to hand combat instructor for 20 years.

I was thinking cook, and perhaps a branch like the air force. I hear it's like college with a dress code.

But seriously, I'm shit at taking orders.

Zendetta
12th February 09, 04:19 PM
Aren't they missing you at the Klan meeting? Or maybe the RNC?

Do you think that was a racist statement I made? You wanna defend this gutless accusation, or were you just joking?

Robot Jesus
12th February 09, 05:35 PM
But having excessive shit means someone else who needs it does not. Besides, I'm not personally that into shit. Especially more than I need to get by.


how so?

EuropIan
12th February 09, 05:37 PM
I sense sarcasm in your words.



I was thinking cook, and perhaps a branch like the air force. I hear it's like college with a dress code.

Go for it.

believe in your justice!


(no sarcasm)

SFGOON
12th February 09, 06:15 PM
Honestly, the best thing in lieu of the military might be joining a non-military national service corps. It's supposedly on the horizon and might be a WAY better choice than any DoD branch, even the Air Force. You can't get out just because you loathe it.

Have you looked into the Peace Corps at all? Or maybe USAID?

Truculent Sheep
13th February 09, 05:18 AM
So it's the intellectual equivolent to 2 girls 1 cup?

More like 'One Man, One Jar' with added footage of kittens being fed into a shredder.

Cullion
13th February 09, 05:30 AM
But having excessive shit means someone else who needs it does not. Besides, I'm not personally that into shit. Especially more than I need to get by.

You think economics is a zero-sum game?

Wow.

TheLordHumungus
13th February 09, 03:22 PM
Silly me. I see countries like America, with surplus food rotting away. All the while, other nations can do nothing but watch their ppl starve. I see the privileged constantly waste what the poor desperately need. But, I'm to believe that there's infinite wealth out there and we can all be rich. We can take as much as we want without any effect on anyone else.

TheLordHumungus
13th February 09, 03:25 PM
Honestly, the best thing in lieu of the military might be joining a non-military national service corps. It's supposedly on the horizon and might be a WAY better choice than any DoD branch, even the Air Force. You can't get out just because you loathe it.

Have you looked into the Peace Corps at all? Or maybe USAID?

The peace corps, yes. This is the first I've heard of USAID. I'll check them out.

And I was kidding about joining any branch of the military, there's not a chance in hell that would go well for anybody.

TheLordHumungus
13th February 09, 03:30 PM
Its self inflicted, a term of dysfunctional identity like "Thug Nigga!!!"

How about the fact that you describe terms like that as self inflicted. They were inflicted by racist white people.

Sun Wukong
13th February 09, 03:39 PM
I just tried to +rep you for your avatar. The Venture Brothers is possibly the coolest cartoon ever.

Zendetta
13th February 09, 03:54 PM
"possibly"?

Its probably the coolest thing ever shown on television.

Zendetta
13th February 09, 04:01 PM
How about the fact that you describe terms like that as self inflicted. They were inflicted by racist white people.

And now they are used as a term of self-identification by a very dysfuntional portion of the black community.

At a time where much of white america is ready, willing, and able to accept black people as social equals, a poor, uneducated, criminally-inclined subculture has kept the term "nigger" in circulation and highjacked black identity so as to make it an extension of the worst stereotypes.

Its bullshit, but you know whats even more bullshit? When priveleged white people make excuses for it, and then try to label those who don't agree as "racist".

HappyOldGuy
13th February 09, 04:11 PM
Either 'queer nation' out there systematically raping straight guys, or maybe it's more complicated than that?

Cullion
13th February 09, 06:06 PM
Silly me. I see countries like America, with surplus food rotting away. All the while, other nations can do nothing but watch their ppl starve. I see the privileged constantly waste what the poor desperately need. But, I'm to believe that there's infinite wealth out there and we can all be rich. We can take as much as we want without any effect on anyone else.

No, you still don't understand.

SFGOON
13th February 09, 08:23 PM
Silly me. I see countries like America, with surplus food rotting away. All the while, other nations can do nothing but watch their ppl starve. I see the privileged constantly waste what the poor desperately need. But, I'm to believe that there's infinite wealth out there and we can all be rich. We can take as much as we want without any effect on anyone else.

That's a transportation issue. There's no efficient way to get food to those people on a sustainable basis.

And hey, did you know that we actually systematically BURN extra grain when it's over-produced? :eek: I know I know, it's a terrible thing!

Get this. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, people starved while international aid rotted in the ports. Re: Nobody can driving for Ukrainian truck! Is madness, yes?!

Modern Chinese may often not know where their next meal is coming from. A full fridge is a rare thing, and you'll see people from developing countries who are NEUROTIC about wasting food. I had a Persian girlfriend who had spent her early childhood in Iran, and eating over at her parents house was always an ordeal for many, many, many reasons.

It's not about greed. It's about stupidity that can be ameliorated through the greed of an innovator.

Robot Jesus
13th February 09, 08:26 PM
Silly me. I see countries like America, with surplus food rotting away. All the while, other nations can do nothing but watch their ppl starve. I see the privileged constantly waste what the poor desperately need. But, I'm to believe that there's infinite wealth out there and we can all be rich. We can take as much as we want without any effect on anyone else.

actualy green peace prevented a large aid shipment in the form of seed grain by conviceing the presedent of zambia it was poison

Equipoise
13th February 09, 08:36 PM
Let's not forget that US & UN aid gets mismanaged by third world nations via corrupt governments. I've linked this directly with terrorism inception in third world nations in numerous papers that I wrote in my Master's classes.

SFGOON
13th February 09, 08:38 PM
Yeah, you think our elites look down upon the common man with a vindictive disdain? Try going to one of the 'stans.

Equipoise
13th February 09, 08:44 PM
When the men in power have shit like gold toilets in their personal jets, you know there's an issue with economic disparity.

SF- How's the academy going btw?

kracker
13th February 09, 10:28 PM
The real problems with this:
1) There can be very little prove regarding what was said and we just KNOW cops are oh so scrupulous about making up evidence and flat out lying to get people heavier sentences.

2) It's a violation of freedom of speech

GuiltySpark
13th February 09, 10:45 PM
The real problems with this:
1) There can be very little prove regarding what was said and we just KNOW cops are oh so scrupulous about making up evidence and flat out lying to get people heavier sentences.

2) It's a violation of freedom of speech

Freedom of speech!

SFGOON
14th February 09, 12:23 AM
When the men in power have shit like gold toilets in their personal jets, you know there's an issue with economic disparity.

SF- How's the academy going btw?

Academy's not until March for me, first day of work is Monday.

In other, not so funny news, I managed to fail my 1.5 mile run on a pre-PAT (non official.) It was about 29 degrees out and I didn't bother to take my asthma meds so about 2 laps in I started wheezing, completely lost my wind, cramped up and came in 41 seconds late. (Cold air + cardio is a common asthma trigger.)

Had it not been for the breathing shit, I would have come in above scale on this one too. I run pretty regularly and know my pace. That wasn't it.

My chain of command is worried, something which I more than understand. This is exactly what got me discharged from the military and it's causing some long-dormant butthurt to well up in my heart. I'm meeting with my sergeant on Sunday to re-do the run and prove I can actually hack it - something I'm looking forward to. I was also able to find some weak points in my running form and have been doing some corrective stretches and running drills to get my hip flexors looser and improve my stride length.

God damn this sucks. Now everyone in my 60 person department thinks I'm fat, weak, slow, and probably stupid too. Sorry for knocking this thread off the rails but I had to do my anonymous vent thing.

Fuck.

lant3rn
14th February 09, 03:02 AM
^ I still think your cool

Neildo
14th February 09, 03:38 AM
sounds like we have the same kind of asthma, goon. it sucks and i hate it.

GuiltySpark
14th February 09, 08:12 AM
SFGOON,
for Training you should put a 10 pound weight belt on dress like a cop and chase Kracker with a night stick and try to hit him in the mellon
What time do you need to run the 1.5 mile in?

EuropIan
14th February 09, 09:48 AM
That's a transportation issue. There's no efficient way to get food to those people on a sustainable basis.

And hey, did you know that we actually systematically BURN extra grain when it's over-produced? :eek: I know I know, it's a terrible thing!

Get this. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, people starved while international aid rotted in the ports. Re: Nobody can driving for Ukrainian truck! Is madness, yes?!

Modern Chinese may often not know where their next meal is coming from. A full fridge is a rare thing, and you'll see people from developing countries who are NEUROTIC about wasting food. I had a Persian girlfriend who had spent her early childhood in Iran, and eating over at her parents house was always an ordeal for many, many, many reasons.

It's not about greed. It's about stupidity that can be ameliorated through the greed of an innovator.
In Denmark, it has become more common for students to salvage thrown away groceries behind supermarkets et al at night.

SFGOON
14th February 09, 03:15 PM
1.5 mile run is a pathetic 14:35 to pass, 13:31 to get maximum points. It shouldn't be hard to even a casual jogger, unless you're breathing through a straw.

elipson
14th February 09, 04:38 PM
Now everyone in my 60 person department thinks I'm fat, weak, slow, and probably stupid too. we don't think you're stupid.

Equipoise
14th February 09, 08:22 PM
1.5 mile run is a pathetic 14:35 to pass, 13:31 to get maximum points. It shouldn't be hard to even a casual jogger, unless you're breathing through a straw.

We had to do it in 12:00 to pass academy standards....however some of the fatasses managed to get through even though I know they didn't make it in 12.

SFGOON
14th February 09, 11:31 PM
Even an eight minute mile is kind of - sad. At least for passing a service academy. I re-do the run portion tomorrow, and I'm looking forward to having my supervisor stop sighing at the beginning of each of our conversations as if he just caught me beating his dog with his carbon-shaft golf clubs. It unsettled me at first, but his doing it every single time is starting to be funny.

And just for insurance, ten grams of calcium pyruvate, six grams of sodium bicarbonate, a gram of potassium and a liter of water will guarantee I cross that finish line well ahead of the designated time.

Neildo
15th February 09, 06:18 AM
better living through chemistry.

Zendetta
15th February 09, 02:55 PM
Speaking of beating dogs with golf clubs, long ago in the days of yore I lived up in the mountains and studied Chen Style Taiji Chuan in the park from a Chinaman named Lee Fong.

One day Mr. Fong was menaced by a growling dog as he walked to the park from his home. The experienced frightened him and he took to walking with a steel-headed golf putter in case Fido came back.

As I would practice my forms, he would alternate between practicing his putting stance and doing the Chen style sword forms - which are pretty cool as taiji sets go.

But seeing a guy do a classical Chinese sword form with a putter is kinda funny.

SFGOON
15th February 09, 07:15 PM
Just FYI, I passed with flying colors. Two minutes faster than the other day. Go figure.

Cullion
15th February 09, 08:09 PM
Doh, forget it, I just read your last post.

Truculent Sheep
15th February 09, 08:35 PM
In Denmark, it has become more common for students to salvage thrown away groceries behind supermarkets et al at night.

Skip-Raiding can be surprisingly rewarding. For example, did you know that Burger King throws away tons of perfectly edible burgers every year? Find where they skip 'em and you can Whopper the night away.

Cullion
15th February 09, 09:28 PM
I know people who skip raid. Rats love skips. They love to defecate in them. I don't like the idea of getting my food from a refuse container. I'm kind of surprised that the people who do it don't make themselves very, very ill within a couple of months.

Cullion
15th February 09, 09:30 PM
And just for insurance, ten grams of calcium pyruvate, six grams of sodium bicarbonate, a gram of potassium and a liter of water will guarantee I cross that finish line well ahead of the designated time.

Interesting. How does that little cocktail help you to run faster over a mile and a half ?

GuiltySpark
16th February 09, 02:00 AM
Just FYI, I passed with flying colors. Two minutes faster than the other day. Go figure. Nice
I'm trying to get 1 mile in 7 minutes.
Shouldnt be too too bad.

Since I'm 30 and old I'll pop asprin. Helps with pain and also opens up the blood vessles.

Best mix, asprin, hydroxicut and a redbull :)

SFGOON
16th February 09, 09:54 AM
Interesting. How does that little cocktail help you to run faster over a mile and a half ?

It raises the pH of your blood which helps you metabolize lactic acid more efficently, which in turn frees up more oxygen for more important things, like running fast. Give it a try sometime. I weigh about 96 kilos so I used maybe a tablespoon of baking soda. Just make sure to mix it with loads of water.

kracker
16th February 09, 11:33 AM
Try Beta Alanine, you can probably find it at you local GNC. It prevents lactic acid buildup so you don't ache as fast.

Cullion
16th February 09, 02:28 PM
The 1.5 mile run for army reserve entrance is only 13.30 before you start training, but it needs to go down under 10.30 by the end of training to be deployable as an infantryman.

I can do it in just under 13 now, but I should be able to make most of the improvement just by taking fat off (at least 25 lbs).
IIRC I'm about an inch taller than you and am currently at 96kg too, but with a higher bodyfat % judging by pics.

Did you consider cutting muscle mass to make this run ? 96kg is a lot of weight to carry for long distance running at your height. In fact, if most of it's muscle, wouldn't that make it even harder, because it's all got to be supplied with oxygen from a 5'8" guys lungs ?

Equipoise
16th February 09, 02:29 PM
You're confusing a lot of things here, specifically his metabolic pathways efficiency in carrying nutrients to his muscles.

Cullion
16th February 09, 03:23 PM
You're confusing a lot of things here, specifically his metabolic pathways efficiency in carrying nutrients to his muscles.

I understand that a lot of the training is to do with developing blood vessels and metabolic efficiency, but the ratio of lung volume to oxygen demands (proportional to the muscle and other tissue needing to be supported) is relevant, no ?

I mean we know that taken to an extreme you end up as a marathon-running twig, but there is a reason why marathon runners look like that.

Equipoise
16th February 09, 04:01 PM
They end up like that due to the massive amounts of catabolism they endure as a result of their "sport."

As long as he's not roided out of his mind, his lungs and heart will be just fine for his activity level. Size is more a function of nutrition rather than exercise.

Cullion
16th February 09, 04:16 PM
I remember when you went to the police academy you made a massive improvement in your run time from something like 11.15 down to around 8 minutes or so, without giving up your lifting. What did you do to get the time down so much ?
(I'm assuming you had little fat to lose)

Equipoise
16th February 09, 05:15 PM
I got used to the running.

I improved my technique, and my metabolic pathways shifted towards moderate level running and lifting. I wasn't the fastest in the class but I was in the top 1/4 due to alternating my training methods.

While the body uses different metabolic pathways for anaerobic & aerobic activities, the overall focus is on the intensity of the exercise. Running at a moderate pace is easy when you have baseline fitness. Running for sport or otherwise is another animal entirely.

I don't run now at all. I just focus on lifting and high intensity spurts of MA or whatever I feel like doing that day. I can still run a mile in 7ish and feel okay at the end.

SFGOON
16th February 09, 10:34 PM
I intentionally dropped a fuckload of muscle. One of the best things about being a hairy-chested muscular he-beast is that you can drop ten to fifteen pounds without really trying, if you're willing to lose the mass. All you have to do is lower your protein intake. For me, size doesn't correlate to strength much. It's like equi said.

As far as the baking soda goes - it's not original research. I got it here:

http://www.pureendurance.net/lactic_acid

And it worked like a fucking charm. I did get some nasty stomach issues from my regimen, but I'm almost positive that was the ten grams of pyruvic acid I decided to take.

GuiltySpark
18th February 09, 01:08 PM
Do cops have yearly fitness qualifications or tests they have to meet?

EuropIan
18th February 09, 01:15 PM
Do cops have yearly fitness qualifications or tests they have to meet?
yes, a grueling exercise regimen is required for these


pfCyAr1x7dk

Equipoise
18th February 09, 08:19 PM
It depends on the position that you're in. For routine patrol, no. For CST/SWAT, yes. Plus we have advanced shooting requirements. A lot of departments will offer bonuses for being able to do a specific state obstacle course within the required time, however it's a civil rights issue to institute a fitness requirement on the job for some reason.....go figure.

Truculent Sheep
18th February 09, 08:48 PM
I know people who skip raid. Rats love skips. They love to defecate in them. I don't like the idea of getting my food from a refuse container. I'm kind of surprised that the people who do it don't make themselves very, very ill within a couple of months.

It depends on the skip - some are surprisingly clean, hygienic and vermin proof.

SFGOON
18th February 09, 09:32 PM
My department gives an annual bonus for fitness. It's not a requirement, but it's free money to stay in shape.

GuiltySpark
19th February 09, 04:18 PM
It depends on the position that you're in. For routine patrol, no. For CST/SWAT, yes. Plus we have advanced shooting requirements. A lot of departments will offer bonuses for being able to do a specific state obstacle course within the required time, however it's a civil rights issue to institute a fitness requirement on the job for some reason.....go figure.
Retarded.

Cops should be fired if their physically unfit.
We (the people!) pay police officers to be smart, honest, fair (bla bla) and keep in good health and good physical condition.


Not that I have good argument for it BUT I would like to see at least some kinda physical fitness program for people on welfare.
Ah hell throw university and college students in there too.

Kein Haar
19th February 09, 04:54 PM
Cops should be fired if their physically unfit.

Nice thing about the FBI and stuff they are paid to work-out, and aren't really exposed to the #1 danger of all street cops....that which to some degree and duration will injure and disable most of us at some point....traffic crashes.

Playing the devil's advocate, here, after I got t-boned, when should I have been back in shape? More specifically, how much should have "the people" paid me to sit on my ass at home on workers comp? Nursing a chronic injury which wasn't debilatating, but easily aggravatable, and certainly not at all limiting for 99.9% of what I actually had to do on a day-to-day basis.

Unfortunately there are many gray areas of competing interests on the cop/deputy level.

As soon as cities, villages and counties get their ducks in a row as far as accomodating fitness and dealing with injuries in a way which DOESN'T PISS OFF THE TAX PAYER, then maybe you'd see more of what you'd like.

The same sick time I have to use for being sick, is the same time-off allottment I'm given for when a child is born.

On a related note of l337 hand-to-hand skills we're supposed to have as well, I would have loved to continued BJJ, but...fuck...can't have a broken finger here and there and blow my sick-time load on minor (but major) crap like that.

Especially small towns...fucking forget it. We hired a guy from another department who explained how he got to work every day:

"The one guy on duty would drive to my house in the squad car. I would then drive him home in the squad car, then I would go on duty alone."