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Equipoise
28th January 09, 10:40 AM
Last week's Dallas area girls basketball game that resulted in a 100-0 shut-out has started a national debate over how big of a winning margin is too big.

The West Oso (Texas) girls know the situation well and said 100-0 is over the line.

"If something did happen like that, our coach would definitely apologize," West Oso guard Anastasia Fillmore said.
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Concerning Dallas Academy's merciless shut-out, Covenant officials apologized, calling it "shameful".

Coach Micah Grimes rebuked that apology and was fired over the weekend.

However, Lady Bears Coach Roy Williams believes there are plenty of ways to avoid a score of 100-0.

"We normally run zone, something we don't ever practice. We run zone, no press. We work on little-bitty things. We clear the bench. We pretty much discuss it during time-outs and in between quarters that we do not want to embarrass these kids. These are still high school kids," Williams said.

"Every time we get close to scoring a "dollar" on a team, our coach tells us to settle down and back-up," Fillmore said.

The Bears are aware of the problem and understand it. West Oso has won several games by 50 or more points, including a 91-9 win over Premont. Williams said he tried to limit the damage in that game.

"That was really a bad situation. We actually played our second and third string in that game. We played our starters about a quarter and that was it," Williams said.

"You definitely tend to feel sorry for teams, but you, yourself, have to work on things too. You could take it as a practice, I guess you could say. You can't stop working because they're not able to play against you. We use teams to work for other teams," West Oso forward Chandace Tryon said.

Ex-coach remembers criticism for 100-point games
In New Hampshire 22 seasons ago John Fagula, then head coach of 1987-88 Nashua High squad that finished first in the USA Today's girls' prep basketball poll national ranking, was criticized for scoring over 100 points five times that season.

Yesterday Fagula, who posted a 432-70 record and 11 state titles at Nashua and is now the head coach at Londonderry, spoke to the debate over whether Grimes was guilty of running up the score.

"First, I wasn't at the game and I'm speaking to only what I have heard or read,'' said Fagula. "For me it comes down to this: If it's true he was still playing his best players in the fourth quarter and pressing, then he has stepped over the line, as far as I'm concerned.''

Covenant was leading Dallas Academy, a program winless over the last four seasons, 59-0 at halftime.

Fagula said at that point, Grimes could have done something to avoid the final result.

"If I'm in his shoes, I'm telling my team to sit back in a zone and let them shoot the ball or whatever they wanted to do on offense,'' said Fagula. "Our position would be not to trap them at that point. Now if they took a shot, missed and we rebounded, I would not tell my team to stop playing. I would instruct my team to come down, work an offensive play that requires four or five passes before shooting.''

Fagula said under those circumstances, if his team had still won by a 100-0 margin, he wouldn't have apologized to the losing team for being that bad.

"As a coach on the winning side, I can't see myself telling my team to miss shots or free throws on purpose,'' said Fagula. "I just can't do it.''

On that 1987-88 nationally-ranked team, nine of the 10 Nashua players on the squad received scholarships to play college.

"I can still remember early that season when the Union Leader criticized me for beating Memorial (106-30),'' said Fagula. "I remembered asking the reporter if he saw the game in person, how the game was played or even talked to the opposing coach, who was John Astarita that year,'' said Fagula. "We had a talented team that year which averaged 87 points and allowed 35. What people don't know and I challenge them to prove me wrong to this day is that I never had a kid score more than 20 points in any game that season. Check the books.''

Fagula also said that was the first season of the three-point field goal and "we only had one three-pointer attempted the whole year. My point is I didn't tell my team to stop playing, but we scored in a way where we definitely weren't out to embarrass the other team. If you talk to Astarita about that Memorial game, he'll tell you that he told me thanks for not rolling up the score because we had the team that could have scored 150, 175 and even 200 points against certain teams. We were so good that season that our second team played more than the first team.''

Fagula said had Covenant beaten Dallas Academy 80-0 or 90-0 instead of 100-0, it wouldn't have been national news.

"There's something magical about that number 100 that drives people bananas,'' said Fagula. "It's like if a soccer team wins 14-0 or a football team wins 60-0, it's not big news. Hit 100 and it becomes news.''

Getting back to the Dallas game, Fagula said he can't believe the referees didn't help Dallas' cause. "Believe me, the refs know the score and there comes a point when they start letting the losing team get away with travelling calls or start calling cheap fouls on the winning team pressing. Again I wasn't there, but I'm surprised nothing was done to help Dallas get on the board.''

As for the option of the Dallas coach pulling his team off the court as the score got to 80 or 90, Fagula said "it's an option because somewhere along the way, you don't need to deal with that situation.''


Rose Galligan, now in her 34th season as girls' basketball coach at Pembroke, said she wasn't surprised that Grimes was fired.

"We're not here to embarrass the kids,'' said Galligan. "If I were the losing coach of that game, I would have said something to the other coach.''

Galligan was also interested in knowing "how would he (Grimes) have reacted if he lost 100-0?''

Tim Kehoe, now in his 18th season at Lebanon and 21st overall as a girls' basketball coach, recalls the time he beat Rutland, Vt., 62-9, and was embarrassed.

"I felt bad and I apologized to the team,'' said Kehoe. "I was actually sweating in that game and I was more upset winning the game. We tried everything from playing zone to turning our offense into a 10-pass rule in effect and nothing worked. They just couldn't hit shots and we ended up winning by that large margin.''

Kehoe said Grimes crossed the line.

"I'm only going by what I read or heard, that (Covenant) their assistant coaches were encouraging their kids to reach 100,'' said Kehoe. "That shouldn't happen.''

In Hampton, Winnacunnet coach Ed Beattie, now in his 28th season, called the incident in Dallas, "Disgusting. This game was never in doubt. There were no lessons learned here and the whole thing is really unfortunate.''





http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/28845363/

What the fuck is this nonsense? Why does the coach have to placate the mediocrity of the other team? This is pathetic. The coach should be applauded for having such a fantastic team, not punished.

EuropIan
28th January 09, 10:49 AM
It's because he ignored the slaughter rule

EXv13WdLiMA

MrGalt
28th January 09, 11:09 AM
What happens to the coach who lost 100-0? I mean, isn't he a REALLY shitty coach? There should be some kind of consequences for that, eh?

HappyOldGuy
28th January 09, 11:29 AM
Because god smiles every time something bad happens to the kind of massive prick who runs up a score like that on a bunch of high school girls.

Zendetta
28th January 09, 11:34 AM
In New Hampshire 22 seasons ago John Fagula, then head coach of 1987-88 Nashua High squad that finished first in the USA Today's girls' prep basketball poll national ranking, was criticized for scoring over 100 points five times that season.

LOL.

jvjim
28th January 09, 11:40 AM
Fuck this "he's an asshole" shit, I used to get beat all the time at sport stuff. Football, baseball, soccer, I was always on the fat, asthmatic loser team and you know what, we would work longer and harder than everybody else and still fail because we were a bunch of unathletic (but less fat) asthmatic losers BUT we always had a great time! We learned that sports are fun GAMES and sometimes the guy who has to run the score up is the omniloser because he has to play fucking basketball for 24 G's a year. The 'winners' may or may not find success later in life (I hope they do, success is awesome), but the mother fuckers who can get fucking clobored, go to practice the next day and run until they puke, and then go hit the books, those guys are the real winners. I mean, except for the people who actually won and got the girls. Fuck.

Dagon Akujin
28th January 09, 11:56 AM
I worked at a Christian school one year that did this. The coach of the other team came up to our coach and said "Hey, our star player is out. We only have 6 guys tonight, and two of them have never played or even been to a practice. Go easy on us."

Instead, the "christian" coach had the team full-court press, and set a state record for 3-pointers. It was so bad that the coach of the other team said in the newspaper that to teach sportsmanship to his kids and the christian kids, what he should have done was drag the christian coach outside and beat him to a bloody pulp in the parking lot.

Fearless Ukemi
28th January 09, 12:04 PM
The losing coach should have just forfeited the game, that fucking prick.

HappyOldGuy
28th January 09, 12:16 PM
Fuck this "he's an asshole" shit, I used to get beat all the time at sport stuff. Football, baseball, soccer, I was always on the fat, asthmatic loser team and you know what, we would work longer and harder than everybody else and still fail because we were a bunch of unathletic (but less fat) asthmatic losers BUT we always had a great time! We learned that sports are fun GAMES and sometimes the guy who has to run the score up is the omniloser because he has to play fucking basketball for 24 G's a year. The 'winners' may or may not find success later in life (I hope they do, success is awesome), but the mother fuckers who can get fucking clobored, go to practice the next day and run until they puke, and then go hit the books, those guys are the real winners. I mean, except for the people who actually won and got the girls. Fuck.

I hate to break it to you, but if the scores were that uneven, you were probably getting clobbered at the end by all the guys on their bench who hadn't played all season. Cause thats what every single school age team I've ever played, played with, or even seen play does. For fucks sake, even the pro's do it (for slightly different reasons).

KO'd N DOA
28th January 09, 12:28 PM
To even the score, the losing coach should be forced to play on his team, while the winning team has to field 3 players from the stands.

Or

They have the captains flip a coin, and start picking new teams to even out the strength...worked for us.

Lohff
28th January 09, 12:57 PM
Kind of hard to motivate a team to get better when you keep attempting to unbalance the game to account for their mediocrity.

HappyOldGuy
28th January 09, 01:02 PM
Folks, this isn't rocket science. Once you have the game safely won, you rotate in your bench warmers so they get a chance to play. Every single school coach everywhere does this. Except apparently in Texas, which is yet another reason to give it back to Mexico.

Equipoise
28th January 09, 01:06 PM
That's not the point. The point is that victory shouldn't mean getting canned. They're just stroking the losing team's ego with this crap.

If the game wasn't meant to be won, no score would be kept.

elipson
28th January 09, 01:10 PM
Does anyone else think that MAYBE these teams should be in different leagues? If that team is killing everyone so regularly, move them up a league!

And fire the coach that hasn't won a game in FOUR YEARS!! Totally fucking hypocrisy. They won't fire a coach who sucks because "its just a game" but they will fire a coach who wins because apparently its more than just a game.

HappyOldGuy
28th January 09, 01:12 PM
That's not the point. The point is that victory shouldn't mean getting canned. They're just stroking the losing team's ego with this crap.

If the game wasn't meant to be won, no score would be kept.

He didn't get canned for winning. He got canned for acting like a dick, and using his students to do it. He is a teacher, and his job description includes teaching "sportsmanship."

MrBadGuy
28th January 09, 01:23 PM
Sportsmanship is not going "OH YEA, HOWD YOU LIKE THAT, YOU LITTLE LIMP WRISTED FAGGOT, I BEAT YOU HARDER THAN YOUR MOM BEATS OFF OTHER MEN FOR 5$ A POP, IT USED TO BE 10$ BUT DEMAND WAS SO POOR IT DROPPED!" after you score 100 points.

Do they do this in HS wrestling? "Dude, we're winning too much. Let the amputee kid have a turn. What!? He won!? God damn it!"

Also what is with all the drama, it wouldn't just be because it's the Women's basketball team, would it?

Steve
28th January 09, 01:46 PM
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/28845363/

What the fuck is this nonsense? Why does the coach have to placate the mediocrity of the other team? This is pathetic. The coach should be applauded for having such a fantastic team, not punished.

They should have a rematch but trade coaches. If the other team wins 100-0 then we know we can blame the coach for this outrage.

Spade: The Real Snake
28th January 09, 02:02 PM
As someone who has been on both sides of "the blowout", they are full of suck and awesome.

Equipoise
28th January 09, 02:15 PM
Sportsmanship is not going "OH YEA, HOWD YOU LIKE THAT, YOU LITTLE LIMP WRISTED FAGGOT, I BEAT YOU HARDER THAN YOUR MOM BEATS OFF OTHER MEN FOR 5$ A POP, IT USED TO BE 10$ BUT DEMAND WAS SO POOR IT DROPPED!" after you score 100 points.

Honestly, screw sportsmanship. It's about winning. You don't have to act like a major asshole after the game, but you don't have to say stupid shit like "Good Game" when you smoked the other team or try to make them feel better by telling your team to screw off during the play.



He didn't get canned for winning. He got canned for acting like a dick, and using his students to do it. He is a teacher, and his job description includes teaching "sportsmanship."

If he used MBG's above quote after winning, then yeah I could see how it would be an issue, however he didn't. So the coach won which IS THE POINT OF THE GAME otherwise as I said earlier there would be no score keeping. This isn't duck-duck-goose.

Ever listen to how high school coaches talk to their students? It's like boot camp lite. College is even more intense. You don't fire a coach for winning. You fire him for failure.

Domite
28th January 09, 03:37 PM
It's a girls team. Feelings are more important than sucesss.

Feryk
28th January 09, 04:06 PM
Jesus, this is fucking HIGH SCHOOL. No one should be taking this that seriously.

First, the winning coach is an ass. Period.

Second, the losing team is winless in four years. Did they get embarrassed? Yes. Sucks to be them, but that school needs to review it's program and it's priorities. Maybe they should stop fielding a team or get serious about building one, or go play in an elementary school league or something.

Third, who gives a shit? Really, it's not like he's ruining anyone's chance for a scholarship, etc.

f4n4n
28th January 09, 04:08 PM
LOL just LOL... gotta love the USA

Equipoise
28th January 09, 04:12 PM
Jesus, this is fucking HIGH SCHOOL. No one should be taking this that seriously.

First, the winning coach is an ass. Period.



1. HS is important for those looking to get full rides to Unis and possibly professional later on. So yeah it's a bit serious.

2. Why is he an ass? Because his team did so well? Did he parade around and show his ass to the other team? Did he play Queen's "We are the Champions?"

No.

Spade: The Real Snake
28th January 09, 04:13 PM
LOL just LOL... gotta love the USA

Now we all know how the German Basketball team felt in the '92 Olympics

f4n4n
28th January 09, 04:21 PM
You have to love a country where being mediocre is required. It is like this kid who got kicked out of the baseball league because he could throw a pitch at 70mph...
If you lose you got to suck it up and train harder or face the fact that you might not be cut out for it. It is like saying "you can be everything you want, even President" to a black kid... oh wait bad example :redface:, but you get my point.

Feryk
28th January 09, 04:35 PM
1. HS is important for those looking to get full rides to Unis and possibly professional later on. So yeah it's a bit serious.

2. Why is he an ass? Because his team did so well? Did he parade around and show his ass to the other team? Did he play Queen's "We are the Champions?"

No.


Coach Micah Grimes rebuked that apology and was fired over the weekend.



He's an ass because he ran up the score on a clearly defenseless team, embarrassed everyone involved, including his own team, and when HIS BOSS apologized for him - he rebuked the apology. ASS.

Fearless Ukemi
28th January 09, 04:40 PM
He didn't get canned for winning. He got canned for acting like a dick, and using his students to do it. He is a teacher, and his job description includes teaching "sportsmanship."


This is highschool. Those kids should be well past the stage of the "everyone's a winner in T-ball" bullshit.

The game should have been called if people's fragile little egos are that much of a concern.

Feryk
28th January 09, 05:06 PM
Game never should have happened. There is a lot of blame to go around. Winless in four years? WTF? As much as the winning coach was an ass, the losing coach/school needs to think long and hard about a program that is this uncompetitive.

Equipoise
28th January 09, 06:02 PM
He's an ass because he ran up the score on a clearly defenseless team, embarrassed everyone involved, including his own team, and when HIS BOSS apologized for him - he rebuked the apology. ASS.

1. What was he supposed to do? Weaken his team's game? Why? For what point aside from trivial happy feel good bullshit?

2. Embarrass.... You're kidding right? What's with this hippie lets stroke everybody's ego nonsense?

3. His boss had no right to puts words in his mouth.

I tend to get the highest numbers on my entire platoon of officers. Should I feel bad because somebody else doesn't have the capacity due to laziness or lack of talent to do the same? Should I walk around and stroke everybody else's ego saying that they'll do better next month? If my sergeant or captain apologized to another officer for my work as it made them look bad, I'd rebuke it also.

Feryk
28th January 09, 06:33 PM
1.) He was supposed to play second stringers, practice zone, do all of the things he could've done with the opportunity after the game was clearly in hand. There was no need for him to keep playing his first string talent. He is actually damn lucky none of his starters were injured during this debacle. He took risks with his OWN team that showed a stunning lack of judgement. And for what,exactly? To humiliate a team that hasn't won in four years?

2.)There is a difference between hippy feel good everyone love everyone else, and purposely fucking over a team that is already hopeless. If you don't understand that, then you lack compassion - a quality that I would hope as a cop you would still have.

3.) His boss apologized for the shameful conduct of their organization - because like it or not, that coach represented that school - and embarrassed THEM. As the senior representative of that school, the principle HAD to act and let the community know that the coach/team's behavior was not representative of the school itself.

Your analogy at the end of your post is not entirely accurate, but I've gotta run, so I'll deal with it another time.

Equipoise
28th January 09, 06:46 PM
1.) He was supposed to play second stringers, practice zone, do all of the things he could've done with the opportunity after the game was clearly in hand. There was no need for him to keep playing his first string talent. He is actually damn lucky none of his starters were injured during this debacle. He took risks with his OWN team that showed a stunning lack of judgement. And for what,exactly? To humiliate a team that hasn't won in four years?

Chances are his whole team got to play and still destroyed the other team. The point however is moot. It was a victory, period.


2.)There is a difference between hippy feel good everyone love everyone else, and purposely fucking over a team that is already hopeless. If you don't understand that, then you lack compassion - a quality that I would hope as a cop you would still have.

Being compassionate is not a necessity to be a good officer, in fact putting emotion into an investigation displaces one's ability to think clearly. Facts are facts. It was a victory, period.


3.) His boss apologized for the shameful conduct of their organization - because like it or not, that coach represented that school - and embarrassed THEM. As the senior representative of that school, the principle HAD to act and let the community know that the coach/team's behavior was not representative of the school itself.

There was no bad behavior. It wasn't shameful in the least. It was effective and gained the victory. This sort of pathetic mentality has created a system of weakness that's now pervading the American culture. God forbid we don't consider everybody's feelings on absolutely everything.


Your analogy at the end of your post is not entirely accurate, but I've gotta run, so I'll deal with it another time.

Yeah it is accurate as it could highlight other's laziness/lack of talent bringing the department's hiring practices into question along with performance reviews which directly pertain to finance allocations from the city as well as promotions. This isn't even including the nebulous paradigm of the city's safety.

Question!
28th January 09, 06:56 PM
The main 'controversy' comes from the fact that the losing school has only 20 girls total, 8 in the team, and is also a school for students with learning problems.

Equipoise
28th January 09, 06:58 PM
Oh, he smoked a bunch of handicapped kids? Wow. Still it's not his fault, it's the morons who scheduled the game.

WarPhalange
28th January 09, 11:06 PM
What the fuck, I was expecting the losing coach to get fired.

Sun Wukong
29th January 09, 12:30 AM
... ok, in light of the game being scheduled between learning disabled kids and not learning disabled kids... this guy definitely probably isn't mr. sensitivity.

However I don't think the dude should have just been fired for it. That's kind of a poor lesson to kids. If you get beat bad enough at something, it's not because you're not very good at basketball, it's because the other guy is a jerk and should be punished.

Now, if as coach, he was displaying really poor sportsmanship somehow, like razzing the kids on the other team or encouraging poor sportsmanship on the part of his players that would be one thing.

I mean, I've gotten my ass handed to me before, and 100 to zip is excessive, but unless he was on the side lines screaming "In your face KUATO!" to a little girl with down's syndrome, I don't think this was necessarily a firing offense.

WarPhalange
29th January 09, 01:23 AM
Oooohhhh.... it wasn't a fair match. Wow. I guess I would have had to be there to see the attitude of the winning coach. If he had a raging boner and was screaming for blood, then yeah, can his ass if for no other reason than to castrate his ego.

But come on, you can't just let someone score when you are playing an actual match. In practice sure, but the point of a match is to see who is better. If you know beforehand that one team has a huge advantage, but still want the other team to play against these people, then you are also a bit fucked in the head. Who let this thing go forward?

bob
29th January 09, 01:41 AM
The way I read it, he was fired for rebuking the apology of the school officials (and presumably some kind of behind the scenes disagreement with those officials), not for the win itself.

EuropIan
29th January 09, 03:15 AM
What the fuck, I was expecting the losing coach to get fired.
This isn't La Liga, you know.

Steve
29th January 09, 03:40 AM
He should have at least been allowed to play a simple game of horse for his job. If he lost against the people that are in power to fire him at his own game, then I could possibly stomach this.

Sun Wukong
29th January 09, 04:40 AM
Dude, that's how every dispute involving a basketball coach should be settled, but with BASEketball rules.

Steve
29th January 09, 04:44 AM
I dunno, just horse rules seems more... pure.

Sun Wukong
29th January 09, 06:09 AM
but where is the sense of spectacle? I DEMAND ROMAN JUSTICE!!!! The new American Empire really, really needs a coliseum for this adjudication of malicious intent and malfeasance.

Feryk
29th January 09, 01:01 PM
Chances are his whole team got to play and still destroyed the other team. The point however is moot. It was a victory, period.

Not what the article said, if I remember correctly.




Being compassionate is not a necessity to be a good officer, in fact putting emotion into an investigation displaces one's ability to think clearly. Facts are facts. It was a victory, period.

Facts are facts. Laws are laws. Application of the law requires SOME form of human understanding and compassion or you are nothing more than a foaming dog on a leash. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought a cops job had as much to do with social work as enforcement. That's what I've been told by some of the cops I've met. I'd consider them the good ones.




There was no bad behavior. It wasn't shameful in the least. It was effective and gained the victory. This sort of pathetic mentality has created a system of weakness that's now pervading the American culture. God forbid we don't consider everybody's feelings on absolutely everything.

His 'bad behavior' was insubordination and he was fired for it. You would be too. This mentality has been 'pervading' society for quite some time. It's called decency. What is weak about having some understanding and empathy for the opposing team? I would argue that the lack of compassion shows a lack of character in the other direction.


Yeah it is accurate as it could highlight other's laziness/lack of talent bringing the department's hiring practices into question along with performance reviews which directly pertain to finance allocations from the city as well as promotions. This isn't even including the nebulous paradigm of the city's safety.

I would argue that your criteria for performance, in an effort to be objective, overlook the softer side of the equation. You know, the part you don't think matters. Sounds like you are doing well in your organization and profession. I truly hope you continue to outshine your peers. I would just hope at some point the cynicism, 'see the hill - take the hill - the hell with the consequences' mentality can be put aside in favor of the human beings you have to deal with.

Equipoise
29th January 09, 02:18 PM
Facts are facts. Laws are laws. Application of the law requires SOME form of human understanding and compassion or you are nothing more than a foaming dog on a leash. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought a cops job had as much to do with social work as enforcement. That's what I've been told by some of the cops I've met. I'd consider them the good ones.

Discretion is not compassion. If I let someone off with a warning, it's not because I'm being compassionate, it's because of the circumstances of the incident. Do the details fit an arrest or citation? I am not a social worker. I don't iron out marriages, discipline your kids, etc. If I respond to a domestic where there is a crime, someone goes to jail. I'm not going to sit there any attempt to reconstruct a failed marriage or failed child rearing. In fact, trying to do so undermines the course of job and outsteps my boundaries as an officer. Moreover, the incident has no bearing on my life.





His 'bad behavior' was insubordination and he was fired for it. You would be too. This mentality has been 'pervading' society for quite some time. It's called decency. What is weak about having some understanding and empathy for the opposing team? I would argue that the lack of compassion shows a lack of character in the other direction.

No, it's not insubordination. It's illegal for school to make a statement on his behalf without his permission. That's Fascism.


I would argue that your criteria for performance, in an effort to be objective, overlook the softer side of the equation. You know, the part you don't think matters. Sounds like you are doing well in your organization and profession. I truly hope you continue to outshine your peers. I would just hope at some point the cynicism, 'see the hill - take the hill - the hell with the consequences' mentality can be put aside in favor of the human beings you have to deal with.

There is no "softer side." The softer side is where people's rights start to get trampled on. He was wrongfully terminated and making an unsolicited statement upon his behalf is a violation of his civil rights.

WarPhalange
29th January 09, 03:16 PM
Equipose is Robocock mixed with Judge uhh.... Penis.

Seriously dude, you walk around like a fucking robot. You remind me of all those shitty comedies where people are all 100% about their jobs, like Hot Fuzz or that shitty movie where Ben Stiller is a health inspector or something. Wait, no, Hot Fuzz is awesome. But yeah, you are totally like Ben Stiller.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
29th January 09, 03:19 PM
Equipoise is actually a talking Judge Dredd doll. You pull a string on his back and he says one of a dozen fun catch phrases.

I AM THE LAW
DURA LEX SED LEX
I GET TO TELL PEOPLE WHAT TO DO THIS JOB IS AWESOME

Equipoise
29th January 09, 03:31 PM
Equipose is Robocock mixed with Judge uhh.... Penis.

Seriously dude, you walk around like a fucking robot. You remind me of all those shitty comedies where people are all 100% about their jobs, like Hot Fuzz or that shitty movie where Ben Stiller is a health inspector or something. Wait, no, Hot Fuzz is awesome. But yeah, you are totally like Ben Stiller.

My job is not to interpret that law, but enforce it. That's why I'm efficient at my job. Your analogy is horrible btw.

WarPhalange
29th January 09, 03:54 PM
No, it's pretty apt. I don't scream when I'm watching a movie in the theater and some action scene defies the laws of physics.

http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20081210.gif

Similarly, you can be a heartless robot dick, or you can actually look back and think why these laws were made in the first place and what is the point of enforcing these laws via punishment.

Cullion
29th January 09, 04:28 PM
This whole thread is one giant facepalm.

Wait until they start banning kids from playing your version of Football because it's 'too competitive and makes them aggressive'.

Feryk
29th January 09, 04:28 PM
Can't say much about Equipoise, but the other LEOs I know fall into two groups. One side views it's job as enforcement with compassion. For example, the cop in one Jr. High I know is well aware that some of the kids in the school are using, and doing it frequently. He knows some of them have lives that truly suck. If he catches them holding, then they get arrested.

But he'd be the first to recommend treatment options, and would follow up with the kid after he comes back to make sure the kid knows someone gives a shit. And he'll bust them again.

The other side are a totally different animal. They enforce the law because it is the law. Period. And fuck you if you get in the way. Example, a Child Crimes Investigator I ran across told me how she interrogated a guy about molesting his new stepdaughter. He claimed innocence (obviously). She decided to grill him, even though she was 80% sure he was telling the truth.

She arranged a polygraph, and was told that it would take about 5 hrs. to set it up. In the meantime, she went after the guy with a vengeance - to the point where he was physically ill. Additionally, she questioned the child in a manner that was, she later admitted 'aggressive'. Read that she traumatized the kid.

In the end, the polygraph exonerated the guy, and it turned out that the wife's ex-husband had made the initial complaint just to be a douche. He knew about the process because he himself was charged with beating his wife and child prior to the divorce. The detective told me that she found out later that the guy ended up leaving the relationship because he couldn't look at the littlle girl -- and she couldn't look at him.

Essentially, the way this was investigated ended up wrecking a family. The detective in question had the attitude of 'whatever. We got to the truth eventually.' And I'll bet that she scores pretty damn high on whatever metrics are used to judge her, because she DID get to the truth...but she could've done it differently, and caused a lot less damage. But she doesn't get paid to care, does she?

Shawarma
29th January 09, 05:14 PM
http://notwhatitused2be.com/wp-content/uploads/cover_dreddA.jpg

HappyOldGuy
29th January 09, 05:17 PM
http://notwhatitused2be.com/wp-content/uploads/cover_dreddA.jpg

Exactly. I don't get why Eq is getting so bent out of shape. Being Judge Dredd is awesome!!!!

Shawarma
29th January 09, 05:23 PM
But yeah, you are totally like Ben Stiller.
Shit Loops, you're in for some hardcore police brutality now. That's the worst thing you could say about ANYONE.

WarPhalange
29th January 09, 05:25 PM
Can't say much about Equipoise, but the other LEOs I know fall into two groups. One side views it's job as enforcement with compassion. For example, the cop in one Jr. High I know is well aware that some of the kids in the school are using, and doing it frequently. He knows some of them have lives that truly suck. If he catches them holding, then they get arrested.

But he'd be the first to recommend treatment options, and would follow up with the kid after he comes back to make sure the kid knows someone gives a shit. And he'll bust them again.

The other side are a totally different animal. They enforce the law because it is the law. Period. And fuck you if you get in the way. Example, a Child Crimes Investigator I ran across told me how she interrogated a guy about molesting his new stepdaughter. He claimed innocence (obviously). She decided to grill him, even though she was 80% sure he was telling the truth.

She arranged a polygraph, and was told that it would take about 5 hrs. to set it up. In the meantime, she went after the guy with a vengeance - to the point where he was physically ill. Additionally, she questioned the child in a manner that was, she later admitted 'aggressive'. Read that she traumatized the kid.

In the end, the polygraph exonerated the guy, and it turned out that the wife's ex-husband had made the initial complaint just to be a douche. He knew about the process because he himself was charged with beating his wife and child prior to the divorce. The detective told me that she found out later that the guy ended up leaving the relationship because he couldn't look at the littlle girl -- and she couldn't look at him.

Essentially, the way this was investigated ended up wrecking a family. The detective in question had the attitude of 'whatever. We got to the truth eventually.' And I'll bet that she scores pretty damn high on whatever metrics are used to judge her, because she DID get to the truth...but she could've done it differently, and caused a lot less damage. But she doesn't get paid to care, does she?

The Law doesn't take into account anything else. If you arrest someone for rape or child molestation, their reputation is tarnished forever. If they get acquitted or found not guilty, it still doesn't matter. People won't look at you the same way again.

Equipoise
29th January 09, 05:59 PM
Can't say much about Equipoise, but the other LEOs I know fall into two groups. One side views it's job as enforcement with compassion. For example, the cop in one Jr. High I know is well aware that some of the kids in the school are using, and doing it frequently. He knows some of them have lives that truly suck. If he catches them holding, then they get arrested.

But he'd be the first to recommend treatment options, and would follow up with the kid after he comes back to make sure the kid knows someone gives a shit. And he'll bust them again.

The other side are a totally different animal. They enforce the law because it is the law. Period. And fuck you if you get in the way. Example, a Child Crimes Investigator I ran across told me how she interrogated a guy about molesting his new stepdaughter. He claimed innocence (obviously). She decided to grill him, even though she was 80% sure he was telling the truth.

She arranged a polygraph, and was told that it would take about 5 hrs. to set it up. In the meantime, she went after the guy with a vengeance - to the point where he was physically ill. Additionally, she questioned the child in a manner that was, she later admitted 'aggressive'. Read that she traumatized the kid.

In the end, the polygraph exonerated the guy, and it turned out that the wife's ex-husband had made the initial complaint just to be a douche. He knew about the process because he himself was charged with beating his wife and child prior to the divorce. The detective told me that she found out later that the guy ended up leaving the relationship because he couldn't look at the littlle girl -- and she couldn't look at him.

Essentially, the way this was investigated ended up wrecking a family. The detective in question had the attitude of 'whatever. We got to the truth eventually.' And I'll bet that she scores pretty damn high on whatever metrics are used to judge her, because she DID get to the truth...but she could've done it differently, and caused a lot less damage. But she doesn't get paid to care, does she?

This whole story is ridiculous on numerous different accounts.

1. The comparisons are poor and unrelated.
2. You're sensationalizing this by including an SVU incident that may or may not have happened for the sake of your point.
3. Polygraphs are RARELY used furthermore, passing one doesn't clear you from charges. Any investigator worth his salt knows that a polygraph is about as accurate as a toaster in determining truth.
4. A poly takes about 5 minutes to set up.
5. An allegation by the ex-husband is not enough to substantiate an investigation; read your fourth amendment rights plus probable cause points.
6. If she was 80% sure, the interview would have taken ten minutes.
7. "Aggressive" is a nebulous and subjective term.

If any of this is true, the investigator was very poor at her job. This also has no bearing on this current issue or my ability to efficiently conduct an investigation.

HoG- I don't mind the Dredd reference. I have been called that and RoboCop by other people I've worked with.

Zendetta
29th January 09, 06:33 PM
I don't mind the Dredd reference.

ummmm.... you do know that the Judge Dred character is a deeply satirical dig at fascism and authoritarianism?

HappyOldGuy
29th January 09, 06:44 PM
ummmm.... you do know that the Judge Dred character is a Rockin Bitchin deeply satirical dig at fascism and authoritarianism?
fixed

Spade: The Real Snake
29th January 09, 06:54 PM
This whole thread is one giant facepalm.

Wait until they start banning kids from playing your version of Football because it's 'too competitive and makes them aggressive'.

would this be before or after "Tag" is banned?

oh, wait......

they have.

Feryk
29th January 09, 07:28 PM
This whole story is ridiculous on numerous different accounts.

1. The comparisons are poor and unrelated.
2. You're sensationalizing this by including an SVU incident that may or may not have happened for the sake of your point.
3. Polygraphs are RARELY used furthermore, passing one doesn't clear you from charges. Any investigator worth his salt knows that a polygraph is about as accurate as a toaster in determining truth.
4. A poly takes about 5 minutes to set up.
5. An allegation by the ex-husband is not enough to substantiate an investigation; read your fourth amendment rights plus probable cause points.
6. If she was 80% sure, the interview would have taken ten minutes.
7. "Aggressive" is a nebulous and subjective term.

If any of this is true, the investigator was very poor at her job. This also has no bearing on this current issue or my ability to efficiently conduct an investigation.

HoG- I don't mind the Dredd reference. I have been called that and RoboCop by other people I've worked with.

1.) The comparisons are simply MY experience with two cops I know personally. It's subjective. Sorry I haven't done an exhaustive study of police psychology, although I'm sure it exists somewhere.

2.) Telling you what the investigator herself told me. Is it true? I believe so, but I wasn't in the room. Could be she's a compulsive liar. I know she's a decorated cop. You tell me whether I should believe her or not.

3.)She led me to believe that here (in Edmonton) polys are used frequently as an investigative tool.

4.) I know she wasn't doing it. They have a specific tech who does it. I don't think he's just hanging around waiting to be put into action.

5.) I'm Canadian. Your 4th Amendment does not apply to us.

6.) The interview went on for a loooong time. She was 80% sure, but the two guys watching behind the glass weren't. She was the lead, but she listened to them and later regretted she had. Or at least that's what she said.

7.) It was the term she used, nebulous or not.

And, btw, thank you very fucking much for assuming I'm lying to you instead of actually putting some kind of thought into the point I was trying to make. I'm not, but if you didn't believe me the first time, it's silly to think you would believe me now. If I were American, you would be a great motivator to join the ACLU.

Feryk
29th January 09, 07:29 PM
ummmm.... you do know that the Judge Dred character is a deeply satirical dig at fascism and authoritarianism?

I wonder if Stallone ever figured that out.

Zendetta
29th January 09, 07:35 PM
Definitely not. Ever watch Cobra?

Feryk
29th January 09, 07:36 PM
I'll think of Equipoise whenever I watch that movie from now on.

Equipoise
29th January 09, 07:41 PM
And, btw, thank you very fucking much for assuming I'm lying to you instead of actually putting some kind of thought into the point I was trying to make. I'm not, but if you didn't believe me the first time, it's silly to think you would believe me now. If I were American, you would be a great motivator to join the ACLU.

Not all out lying, just exaggerating for the sake of your argument.

Feryk
29th January 09, 07:45 PM
Nope. Sorry. Just relating what I was told.

Dagon Akujin
29th January 09, 09:07 PM
But come on, you can't just let someone score when you are playing an actual match. In practice sure, but the point of a match is to see who is better. If you know beforehand that one team has a huge advantage, but still want the other team to play against these people, then you are also a bit fucked in the head. Who let this thing go forward?

Ever see this movie?



-p5LecBXZqQ




That movie: Total piece of shit.

TheLordHumungus
30th January 09, 01:25 AM
ummmm.... you do know that the Judge Dred character is a Rockin Bitchin deeply satirical dig at fascism and authoritarianism? fixed
p1EMGeOR20c

Sun Wukong
31st January 09, 07:09 AM
I think EQ is getting unjust heat just because he's comfortable doing his job.

As long as he's doing his job, like he's paid to do it, he's in the right as far as I'm concerned. Cops are paid to do one of the worst jobs on the planet. How many times could you bust up into someones house, see people living like animals, acting like animals before you wanted to shoot somebody?

Fuck, that's exactly why I'm glad I never became a cop. I thought about it. When I got to college my first pick for a degree was criminology, but they closed the department down permanently so I switched majors.

Otherwise, I'd probably be a cop right now too and, to be honest, I'd probably be an awful son of a bitch as a cop. I'm not tough enough internally to deal with human scum all day and not go over the deep end. I couldn't deal with that shit and I'm glad EQ has worked out a way to do it.

The way I see it, unless you've walked a mile in teh cop shoes, I'm not certain that criticizing his attitude towards it is really that constructive. It's not like he's espousing Nazi fascist propaganda about how the filth and dregs of society need to be cleaned from the face of the earth. I'm fairly certain I'd be goose stepping by now if I had his job.

Kein Haar
31st January 09, 09:59 AM
Essentially, the way this was investigated ended up wrecking a family.

Wait...*what* wrecked the family? Come again?

I thought I heard something about a douche ex-husband, false accusations, and some complicit step-daughter in there somewhere. You know who marries douche-bags who turn into EX douche-bags? Females of a commesurate character.

Minor details? Background noise? Not directly indictative of everyone's latent dysfunctional character?

As for the rest...I'll add to EQ's pile even if we are comparing the U.S. to Canada, things can't be THAT fucking divergent. If it is, well, my bad. Canada sucks then.

-You don't "grill" someone with a polygraph. Defeats the ENTIRE purpose of the thing....both in terms of whatever "real" value it is supposed to have, or even if it's a fishing expedition
-Your average detective isn't a polygrapher.
-The whole process is voluntary. "I want a lawyer" ends everything dead in its tracks. Or: "Hey, this is ghey, I'm leaving. Bye."
-Child victim interviews are done ONCE by someone other than the investigating detective, namely a specially trained child advocate who videotapes the thing...so the kid isn't subjected to repeated questioning.
-The interview/interrogation jargon you're repeating sounds NOTHING like the gold standard in the U.S.

I have the feeling there are some serious problems in your translation of these events.

You ever watch The First 48? There is actually some great interviewing in there...much of the time.

TheLordHumungus
31st January 09, 01:22 PM
-You don't "grill" someone with a polygraph. Defeats the ENTIRE purpose of the thing....both in terms of whatever "real" value it is supposed to have, or even if it's a fishing expedition
-Your average detective isn't a polygrapher.
-The whole process is voluntary. "I want a lawyer" ends everything dead in its tracks. Or: "Hey, this is ghey, I'm leaving. Bye."
-Child victim interviews are done ONCE by someone other than the investigating detective, namely a specially trained child advocate who videotapes the thing...so the kid isn't subjected to repeated questioning.
-The interview/interrogation jargon you're repeating sounds NOTHING like the gold standard in the U.S.

I have the feeling there are some serious problems in your translation of these events.

You ever watch The First 48? There is actually some great interviewing in there...much of the time.

I think his problem isn't how regulations like those you mentioned instruct officers to investigate, but how they actually went about the investigation. Maybe they didn't live up to the gold standard.

Kein Haar
31st January 09, 03:02 PM
That's a distinct possibility.

But the more one strays from the tried-and-true, the more one is fucking himself...because the process of which I speak is extremely reliable. And Feryk's story majorly strays.

Just saying.

WarPhalange
31st January 09, 04:13 PM
Hein, what about Law and Order? That's how I've been training to become a police officer, by watching the show. I can like, grab someone's neck and yell at them and tell them that they are a piece of shit even if I have no fucking clue if they are guilty or not, right? It better be, or else all that time I spent training is wasted. :(

Equipoise
31st January 09, 08:58 PM
Hein, what about Law and Order? That's how I've been training to become a police officer, by watching the show. I can like, grab someone's neck and yell at them and tell them that they are a piece of shit even if I have no fucking clue if they are guilty or not, right? It better be, or else all that time I spent training is wasted. :(

Ehh... you have a little bit of leeway with investigations, but they amplify it quite a bit to make it watchable, otherwise it's pretty boring. As for grabbing them and cursing, that's more reserved for chasing the felony warrant suspect and getting him into custody. There are times when I've had to use quite a bit of physical force and a few colorful expletives to restrain an individual or to take them into custody. However most of the time, professionalism and quick wit work best.


The funny thing is, if they have been accused of a crime by an authority, you could call them a piece of S and be right 98 percent of the time. Bring on a little more tough cop investigation I say.

While it makes good movies, the quickest way to get bad info or to completely turn a suspect off to wanting to talk is by being a dick.

Furthermore, you're more intimidating as an officer if you stay calm and assertive. The idiot who foams at the mouth when talking to suspects looks like a chump and will get absolutely no respect. It also makes that officer a target for that suspect's friends to shoot at or fight with.

TheLordHumungus
1st February 09, 04:59 AM
While it makes good movies, the quickest way to get bad info or to completely turn a suspect off to wanting to talk is by being a dick.

Furthermore, you're more intimidating as an officer if you stay calm and assertive. The idiot who foams at the mouth when talking to suspects looks like a chump and will get absolutely no respect. It also makes that officer a target for that suspect's friends to shoot at or fight with.

Holy shit, that's the most human reasonable thing I've ever heard you say! Kind of shatters the Judge Dredd imagine i was building for you. I'd rep you if I could. I feel so dirty.

Dagon Akujin
1st February 09, 05:34 PM
While it makes good movies, the quickest way to get bad info or to completely turn a suspect off to wanting to talk is by being a dick.

Hey, why do you think I don't like a lot of the cops I've had to deal with?

Because a lot of them have been dicks. Thank you for admitting yourself why I'd possibly ever feel the way I do about some of the ones I've had the displeasure of coming across, including currently yourself.

Kein Haar
1st February 09, 05:56 PM
Well, "dick" is relative.

I served a warrant for a robbery suspect the other day. I simply knocked on his door, told him he had a warrant, told him to grab his coat and come with me.

According to his grandma-ma, I was a "cracker" despite my casual and accomodating treatment of the situation.

Not sure I would have been anything BUT a dick, no matter what.

Zendetta
1st February 09, 06:01 PM
Hein, can you say anything smartass'd back to that? ie:

"Madam, Racial Insensitivity will not help the Wheels of Justice to turn any faster for your grandson. Furthermore, I find your comments hurtful and demeaning, and ask you to refrain from besmirching my ancestry in the future."

Equipoise
1st February 09, 07:53 PM
Well, you could tell her to cool it otherwise you'd get her for disorderly conduct and add in felony racial intimidation which would make it a hate crime (federal mandates). =-)

Dagon- You're never had to "deal" with me in the course of my job meaning you can't judge me for that. You disagree with how I do my job, but you don't understand my job or the law for that matter which is completely okay. But drop this loony anti-establishment nonsense already. The whole "speed limits are so cops can get into your car" ideology isn't healthy nor is it grounded.

TLH- It's not that human so much, it's just pragmatic. You can't go around being unprofessional to people and expect to get full cooperation in return.

Hein- Felony warrant and you served it by yourself?

Kein Haar
2nd February 09, 07:34 AM
I wasn't alone, no. The basic dynamic was still the same, though.

It was one of those situations where if if he wanted to run, I wouldn't have cared. He was a townie who wasn't going anywhere for long; he didn't have any friends who'd be loyal or old enough to help him anyway, and he wasn't hard-core enough to go disappear indefiniately into some projects.

Equipoise
2nd February 09, 09:04 AM
Strong armed robbery by some suburban jackass then?

Kein Haar
2nd February 09, 11:52 AM
Yes.

WarPhalange
2nd February 09, 10:36 PM
Holy shit, that's the most human reasonable thing I've ever heard you say! Kind of shatters the Judge Dredd imagine i was building for you. I'd rep you if I could. I feel so dirty.

http://downlode.org/Creative/Writing/Notebook/Illustrations/itsatrap.jpg

Equipoise
2nd February 09, 11:29 PM
Shhhhhh! You're giving away my secret plan.

TheLordHumungus
3rd February 09, 04:09 AM
And there I was filling out an application for the local PD. Fuck. I wasn't trying to be the man anyway.