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elipson
6th January 09, 05:03 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/06/BART.shooting/index.html


(CNN) -- A New Year's Day shooting in which a subway police officer fired a deadly shot into the back of an unarmed man has the San Francisco Bay Area demanding answers as authorities appeal for patience.


Oscar Grant, 22, was killed January 1 in a shooting at a subway station in California's Bay Area.

Bay Area Rapid Transit spokesman Linton Johnson told CNN affiliate KTVU-TV in Oakland, California, that the officer is presumed innocent and described him as devastated.

Attorney John Burris called the shooting "unconscionable" and said he filed a $25 million claim with BART on Tuesday, alleging wrongful death and violation of civil rights by use of excessive force. BART has 45 days to respond, Burris said.

"It's a clear shooting in the back that should not have taken place," Burris said, characterizing the incident as a case of "overagressiveness by police."

KTVU obtained at least two videos of the incident and its prelude. One video, which KTVU reported came from a train passenger who wished not to be identified, shows three young men against a wall in the crowded Fruitvale station.

Karina Vargas, who also provided a video to KTVU, said the men had been pulled from the train car in front of hers. Watch the events preceding the shooting

Burris said Tuesday that the young men had been celebrating the new year at a popular waterfront tourist spot, The Embarcadero. They were heading home when police pulled them from the train car.

Some of the young men were handcuffed, but not 22-year-old Oscar Grant. The video from the anonymous passenger shows Grant seated on the floor with his back against the wall.

Grant holds up his hands, appearing to plead with police. Burris said Tuesday that Grant was asking police not to use a Taser.

"He said to them, 'Don't Tase me; I have a 4-year-old daughter,' " Burris said.

The interaction on the video is not audible.

Seconds later, police put Grant face-down on the ground. Grant appears to struggle.

One of the officers kneels on Grant as another officer stands up, tugs at his gun, unholsters it and fires a shot into Grant's back.

Burris said the bullet went through Grant's back and then ricocheted off the floor and through his lungs.

Grant, who has a 4-year-old daughter, died seven hours later, KTVU reported.

"I couldn't believe it. We was already following directions and everything, and they shot him," Fernando Anicete, one of the young men with Grant, told KTVU.

Burris has spoken to witnesses who claim that Grant was trying to resolve the situation.

"He had been telling people to calm down. 'Be cool. Just do what they tell you to do,' " the attorney said.

Johnson said the video provided to KTVU is inconclusive.

There are two surveillance cameras at the Fruitvale station, but a BART official told CNN that no video is being released at this time.

The community is outraged, according to local media. CNN affiliate KRON-TV in San Francisco reported that about 20 people rallied Monday outside BART's district headquarters in Oakland.

"A 22-year-old unarmed father was executed and assassinated, and BART expects us to swallow that the shooting may have been an accident," protest organizer Evan Shamar of Oakland shouted through a bullhorn, according to KRON.

BART says an investigation is ongoing and hasn't reached any conclusions.

The San Francisco Chronicle published an editorial Tuesday demanding answers as well.

"The BART police say that they are taking the investigation very seriously, but they had better find a way to reach out to the public effectively about what is going on and why. Otherwise, public outrage over this case is going to grow exponentially with every passing day," the newspaper said.

BART Police Chief Gary Gee released a statement this week expressing condolences for Grant's family and saying the authority is cooperating with the Alameda County district attorney's office, which is also investigating.

Gee added that BART will complete an "unbiased and thorough investigation" and asked the public to be patient.

"As frustrating as it is, I want to stress that we cannot and will not jeopardize this case by discussing details before the investigation is complete," Gee said.

Gee provided minor details of what preceded the shooting: BART police received a report that two groups of passengers were involved in an altercation as their train left the West Oakland Station about 2 a.m.

"BART police officers responded to the platform at Fruitvale and detained several persons," Gee said in his statement.

BART has not identified the officer, saying only that he has been on the force two years. He has undergone drug and alcohol testing and is on administrative leave, both of which are standard procedure, according to BART.

The officer has yet to make a public statement.

Johnson and Gee say they are refraining from releasing further details to avoid compromising the investigation. Johnson further told KTVU that BART wanted to avoid "polluting the potential pool of witnesses."

Burris, however, said there is no excuse for the use of force on a man being restrained by police. If BART does not grant his $25 million claim or if the authority fails to respond in 45 days, Burris intends to file a lawsuit, he said.

Burris, who served as Rodney King's co-counsel in King's civil case against the Los Angeles Police Department, said he also wants criminal charges filed against the officer.

He is pushing the Alameda County District Attorney Tom Orloff to press second-degree murder or involuntary manslaughter charges, he said.

Second-degree murder charges would be warranted if the officer shot Grant in the back when Grant posed no danger, Burris said. However, there are reports speculating that the officer accidentally shot Grant, in which case involuntary manslaughter charges would be appropriate, Burris said.

"No one wants to believe a cop would just kill somebody like that," he said. "My view is, this is criminal conduct, period."

Johnson told KTVU that authorities are trying to determine whether the officer who shot Grant accidentally drew his gun instead of his Taser.

He also said authorities still need to speak to all the officers but that the BART officers involved in the incident felt outnumbered and called the Oakland Police Department for backup.

"We need to take our time and go through this thoroughly and try to figure everything out. There's more to this story than this one angle," Johnson told the station.

Asked whether there were developments Tuesday, Johnson said he had none.


Thomas Blalock, president of BART's board of directors, has urged the public not to jump to conclusions.

"Let's get the puzzle put together, and then we'll come to a conclusion," Blalock told KTVU.

Interesting to say the least.

Not sure I would buy the mistaking a Tazer for a Gun defense. Thecops I've seen with Tazers carry them on the opposite hip.

Zendetta
6th January 09, 05:31 PM
Yep. big news out here; folks are riled up.

HappyOldGuy
6th January 09, 05:38 PM
It's all kindsa fucked up. It seems like whatever mistake the cop made is going to be so silly that noone will believe it, but who here hasn't spooned salt instead of sugar. The question is what's fair when you kill someone that way.

Equipoise
6th January 09, 05:38 PM
Officers have done stupid shit like drawing the Tazer versus the gun. This is why cross-draw was implemented. They feel completely different and I don't know how they would do this, but it has been done.

As for this incident. What needs to be established if the individual had a weapon, insinuated that he had a weapon or attempted to reach for a weapon. The media is crap. I would need to see the video and hear testimony from the officers.

HoG- chances are if they officer is found culpable, they'll be canned or reassigned and the city will settle.

Zendetta
6th January 09, 05:44 PM
It is generally accepted (the police are agreeing) that he was unarmed.

BUT the article doesn't seem to mention that the dead guy and his friends were part of a multi-person brawl on the BART train.

kracker
6th January 09, 05:45 PM
BREAKING NEWS: Cops suck and will almost invariably overstep whatever power the pandering, fear peddling lawmakers give them.

Wait... I already knew that

Fearless Ukemi
6th January 09, 05:51 PM
But I'm sure when you think you need one, you don't hesitate to call them right up.

Keith
6th January 09, 05:52 PM
I would need to see the video and hear testimony from the officers.

Can't help you with testimony, but here's some video:
http://www.ktvu.com/video/18409133/index.html

Link to another news source:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/04/BAI9153CBO.DTL

SFGOON
6th January 09, 06:07 PM
Yeah. I wish we had more honest and competent peacekeepers, like the Crips and the Guardian Angels protecting our streets.

Every week in America, police pull over like three people. It seems like one in three of those traffic stops results in something tragic. If there were hundreds of thousands of traffic stops daily that would be one thing. But there's only three.

Just three.

elipson
6th January 09, 06:13 PM
That video is crazy.

Equipoise
6th January 09, 06:54 PM
I've reviewed it and I'm 99% certain this is going to be an accidental discharge.

The officer attempted to cover down while the other officer attempted to restrain the suspect. It appears that he had a sympathetic reaction with both hands resulting in a single shot.

"Keep your finger off the trigger until you intend to fire."

Zendetta
6th January 09, 06:56 PM
That sounds much more reasonable to me than "cold blooded execution".

But I don't think the local angry black folks are gonna buy it at all.

Equipoise
6th January 09, 06:59 PM
This is why I'd prefer that there be a press blackout until after the situation has been resolved. This is going to have a major backlash on the department. Violent crime is going to increase as a result of the media coverage. This includes battery on LEO's. The media usually does more harm than good as such it should be censored. You can rant on about me being a Fascist, but to keep stability all around it needs to be done.

elipson
6th January 09, 07:01 PM
Then lets prep the tear gas and water cannons.

Cat's out of the bag here equi. The video is out there and its too late to stop it.

I can honestly understand how an accidental discharge would happen, but that isn't going to satisfy people and is going to sound like a BS excuse which will trigger a riot. You watch.

Best way to avoid a race riot would be to have the officer(s) do a public apology, full of tears and heart tugging emotion (In Canada they changed it so an apology doesn't come with an assumption of guilt and can't be used in court. How is it in Cali?), then have him plead guilty to a charge of involuntary manslaughter.

Keeping him on that particular police force will result in violence. Get him out, either as punishment or by his own choosing, then give him another job with a law enforcement agency when the drama has passed. Maybe a desk job or something.

This will never happen of course. I've always wanted to procure an actual riot shield that has riot experience....

HappyOldGuy
6th January 09, 07:02 PM
This is why I'd prefer that there be a press blackout until after the situation has been resolved. This is going to have a major backlash on the department. Violent crime is going to increase as a result of the media coverage. This includes battery on LEO's. The media usually does more harm than good as such it should be censored. You can rant on about me being a Fascist, but to keep stability all around it needs to be done.

Go fuck yourself




Too subtle?

Domite
6th January 09, 07:05 PM
This is why I'd prefer that there be a press blackout until after the situation has been resolved. This is going to have a major backlash on the department. Violent crime is going to increase as a result of the media coverage. This includes battery on LEO's. The media usually does more harm than good as such it should be censored. You can rant on about me being a Fascist, but to keep stability all around it needs to be done.

You are an idiot.

Equipoise
6th January 09, 07:07 PM
Then lets prep the tear gas and water cannons.

Cat's out of the bag here equi. The video is out there and its too late to stop it.

I can honestly understand how that would happen, but that isn't goingto satisfy people and is going to sound like a BS excuse which will trigger a riot. You watch.

Oh I have no doubt in my mind that this is correct.




Keeping him on that particular police force will result in violence. Get him out, either as punishment or by his own choosing, then give him another job with a law enforcement agency when the drama has passed. Maybe a desk job or something.

They're going to fire him, I have no doubt.


This will never happen of course. I've always wanted to procure an actual riot shield that has riot experience....

I've been in two riots. It's chaotic.

Zendetta
6th January 09, 07:07 PM
The media usually does more harm than good as such it should be censored. You can rant on about me being a Fascist, but to keep stability all around it needs to be done.

!!!

(Nice Politics Field, BTW!)

It probably won't suprise you to hear that I favor MUCH more civilian oversight and general transparancy in policing.

I figure that the innocent cops have nothing to fear.

Liberty vs Stability is a precarious balance... be very careful when you brush up against it.

THere have been some real fuckers in OPD - google the "Riders" if you want to know.

Keith
6th January 09, 07:08 PM
The officer attempted to cover down while the other officer attempted to restrain the suspect. It appears that he had a sympathetic reaction with both hands resulting in a single shot.
What is the rationale for drawing a lethal weapon in the first place in a situation like this? Not trying to stir the shit, just asking for info.

A "sympathetic reaction" seem like a pretty fucking big oops. Assuming it is an accidental discharge, is it likely that the officer will be charged for crimnal actions, ie manslaughter, negligent homicide, etc?

edited to fix typo

Kein Haar
6th January 09, 07:09 PM
I doubt he was even carrying a single action trigger.

Nice job, rookie.

Kein Haar
6th January 09, 07:11 PM
As for the invariable backlash from we-know-who...

...if they want to call it a ghetto, act ghetto, and speak ghetto... MAKE it a ghetto. Wall it off and let them police themselves. Useless trash.

As far as I know, you couldn't take the blue line out of a ghetto in 1940s Munich.

elipson
6th January 09, 07:15 PM
The guy might have had a weapon on him, or more importantly the cops might have thought he had a weapon, which would justify pulling the gun. It's hard to tell how hard the guy was resisting from the video.



No fingers on triggers guys.

Zendetta
6th January 09, 07:16 PM
you couldn't take the blue line out of a ghetto in 1940s Munich.

OMG!

"Blue Line"! Nazi Cops!

Its all TRUE!!!!!!!!

Kein Haar
6th January 09, 07:17 PM
Pfff...no. There was no weapon. The young stud just couldn't keep his spurs from jangling. Period.

Equipoise
6th January 09, 07:17 PM
It probably won't suprise you to hear that I favor MUCH more civilian oversight and general transparancy in policing.

I figure that the innocent cops have nothing to fear.


I would agree if it weren't for the radicalization of scenarios by the media outlets. Furthermore, current procedures and practices involved are so horribly tempered by the threat of the above issue that any more insight would make our jobs that much more difficult.



What is the rationale for drawing a lethal weapon in the first place in a situation like this? Not trying to stir the shit, just asking for info.

Multiple subjects, past criminal history, threats, current violent resisting, officer safety, lack of effectiveness of lesser use of force. There are a ton of reasons.


A "sympathetic reaction" seem like a pretty fucking big oops. Assuming it is an accidental discharge, is it likely that the officer will be charged fort crimnal actions, ie manslaughter, negligent homicide, etc?

When you make a fist, do you do it with one hand or two? Now think of your martial training if you have any and then add in the stress of that situation. You then have your involuntary sympathetic nerve reaction. I'm not excusing this officer. I'm just stating this is what I'm pretty sure happened and as you said, it's a big fucking oops.

He probably won't be charged due to the lack of the mens rea involved. It'd be hard to get across that he meant to do it. As for negligent homicide (3rd degree murder) this usually involves some sort of additional negligent factor, like a DUI homicide or something such as that. I'm pretty sure he'll just get fired.


I doubt he was even carrying a single action trigger.

Nice job, rookie.

Bingo.

Zendetta
6th January 09, 07:24 PM
I would agree if it weren't for the radicalization of scenarios by the media outlets. Furthermore, current procedures and practices involved are so horribly tempered by the threat of the above issue that any more insight would make our jobs that much more difficult.

You aren't thinking this through. I mean like a council of civvies appointed by, lets say, the Mayor and City Council. It would provide a grounded, responsible counterweight to sensationalist media.

Zendetta
6th January 09, 07:26 PM
THe perp got shot thru the back, and then the bullet hit the cement and ricocheted back up thru his lungs. Damn that fucking sucks.

Equipoise
6th January 09, 07:26 PM
A lot of places have that. The NYPD for example has the civilian review board. It sucks.

Zendetta
6th January 09, 07:28 PM
SF too, but they are blocked at every turn by the department.

Need more neighborhood/community policing too.

Equipoise
6th January 09, 07:53 PM
For your community? Or the high risk areas? Community oriented policing doesn't particularly matter for this thread.

They are blocked by the department how? Have you done studies on this or are you purely speculating? Have you sat in on a CRB hearing or actually been on the panel?

Wounded Ronin
6th January 09, 08:01 PM
None of this would have happened if the neighborhood had instead been policed by MARTIAL ARTS COMMUNITY WATCH!!!!!!

(Instead the guy would have died 60 years later of Dim Mak).

Zendetta
6th January 09, 08:01 PM
Did you hear about Fajita-gate?

re. Community policing. Good in general, not relevant to this particular clusterfuck, which happened on public transit, and has its own cops (BART police).

FriendlyFire
6th January 09, 08:23 PM
Inthe Youtube video the suspect makes some violent movement right before he gets shot, almost looked like he kicked one of the other officers. At first I thought this was really f-ed up, but it doesn't seem to be he just shot him while the guy was laying there.

Sun Wukong
7th January 09, 02:16 AM
resisting arrest does not equal just cause for deadly force. this was clearly a fuck up on the side of the officer, if nothing else comes forward.

I think the $25million lawsuit is a bit steep. 5 million, MAAAYYYYBEEE.

Additionally, that officer needs to be taken off patrol and put behind a desk along with being reassigned to a totally different town. If not charged with accidental homocide altogether.

Cops have it rough, I know that, but putting a bullet in a dude that doesn't deserve one should still be against the law.

kungfujew
7th January 09, 02:36 AM
Inthe Youtube video the suspect makes some violent movement right before he gets shot, almost looked like he kicked one of the other officers. At first I thought this was really f-ed up, but it doesn't seem to be he just shot him while the guy was laying there.

He was pleading for his life, essentially "Don't taze me, don't shoot me, I have a daughter..."
I watched the video, I saw no action on his part warranting the drawing of a firearm, not to mention a tazer, he was on his stomach with a cop's knee on his neck.
And of course, the BART station's security camera's "didn't record anything", yeah fucking right. The usual suspects will do the usual fellating of our brave boys in blue, but the video's out there now. You can't stop the signal.

kungfujew
7th January 09, 02:50 AM
Stolen from a commenter on digg, in relation to "oops I thought it was a tazer durr!":


Hey...if I run over a traffic cop with my truck tomorrow morning, can I walk away scot-free by claiming that I was too stupid to tell the gas pedal from the brake?

"Your Honor, I could've sworn I was stamping the BRAKE pedal into the floor...I had no idea I'd cause that policeman's body to explode like a water balloon flung against a brick wall! I'm just dumb that way. Can I go now? I can? Can I get a paid vacation, too?"

What's that you say? "No one's stupid enough to believe an excuse like that!" No sh*t. That's my point.

Lohff
7th January 09, 03:07 AM
I think the $25million lawsuit is a bit steep. 5 million, MAAAYYYYBEEE.
I'm interested to see how you came up with that figure. I agree with everything else you said.

elipson
7th January 09, 08:41 AM
Hey...if I run over a traffic cop with my truck tomorrow morning, can I walk away scot-free by claiming that I was too stupid to tell the gas pedal from the brake?

"Your Honor, I could've sworn I was stamping the BRAKE pedal into the floor...I had no idea I'd cause that policeman's body to explode like a water balloon flung against a brick wall! I'm just dumb that way. Can I go now? I can? Can I get a paid vacation, too?"

What's that you say? "No one's stupid enough to believe an excuse like that!" No sh*t. That's my point.

I was thinking something similar. Fucking up royally isn't ok just because you did it by accident.

kracker
7th January 09, 10:41 AM
I've reviewed it and I'm 99% certain this is going to be an accidental discharge.

The officer attempted to cover down while the other officer attempted to restrain the suspect. It appears that he had a sympathetic reaction with both hands resulting in a single shot.

"Keep your finger off the trigger until you intend to fire."

Yeah, and I'm sure the BTK killer just "tripped." Come on, if people made the kind of excuses for citizen criminals like they do for cops no one would go to jail.

kracker
7th January 09, 10:56 AM
They're going to fire him, I have no doubt.

.

You're a funny guy. Since when are cops EVER held responsible for their murders? I hope your right but the rioters need to get off their asses and fuck some shit up. In Exarchia the murderers were held accountable but that was only after some pretty major rioting.

HappyOldGuy
7th January 09, 11:55 AM
I was thinking something similar. Fucking up royally isn't ok just because you did it by accident.
It's usually not criminal though unless you are drunk or being intentionally reckless. No matter how stupid the mistake you make while driving is. But it's a fuzzy question. People have been convicted for pedal mistakes.

The guy needs to not ever be a cop again. Other than that, I don't see much upside to him going to jail.

kungfujew
7th January 09, 11:59 AM
The guy needs to not ever be a cop again. Other than that, I don't see much upside to him going to jail.

Ensuring that large swaths of Oakland remain not on fire?

HappyOldGuy
7th January 09, 12:03 PM
Ensuring that large swaths of Oakland remain not on fire?

Speaking from Oakland

Not a good reason.

Gezere
7th January 09, 12:22 PM
You're a funny guy. Since when are cops EVER held responsible for their murders? I hope your right but the rioters need to get off their asses and fuck some shit up. In Exarchia the murderers were held accountable but that was only after some pretty major rioting.
Did you seriously just right that without the benefit of thought?
Without much effort a google search of a cop being charged with murder turns up over 4 million hits and some ranging from premeditated murder to bad decisions and mistakes on the job. So I am willing to say that cops have be held responsible for their MURDERS quite a bit.

Now I'm no lawyer but I do understand that what seperates MURDER from MANSLAUGHTER is generally intent and this is a case of manslaughter than murder.

Gezere
7th January 09, 12:27 PM
It's usually not criminal though unless you are drunk or being intentionally reckless. No matter how stupid the mistake you make while driving is. But it's a fuzzy question. People have been convicted for pedal mistakes.

The guy needs to not ever be a cop again. Other than that, I don't see much upside to him going to jail.
Him going to jail would appease the masses.

Sadly I can understand this guys mistake because I like seen pple have a negligent discharge in adrenaline is pumping but his negligience cost a man, a father, his life there has to be punishment for it.

HappyOldGuy
7th January 09, 12:33 PM
Him going to jail would appease the masses.

Sadly I can understand this guys mistake because I like seen pple have a negligent discharge in adrenaline is pumping but his negligience cost a man, a father, his life there has to be punishment for it.
Appeasing the masses isn't a good reason. No fair penalty is gonna do that. The community has too much distrust for the police for a shitload of totally unconnected reasons.

Gezere
7th January 09, 12:43 PM
Appeasing the masses isn't a good reason. No fair penalty is gonna do that. The community has too much distrust for the police for a shitload of totally unconnected reasons.
I agree 100%
Even if the shooting was legit there would still be distrust. In this case if something isn't done it could be really bad, again.

Zendetta
7th January 09, 12:59 PM
I think that when yoyu compare incentives for executing a perp vs not, it becomes pretty obvious that this was a tragic accident. That does not absolve the negligence, but the intent is important to consider.

It was NOT a cold-blooded execution. But I don't expect the local Thugocracy will see it that way. THis is not good for community-police relations for a community that already suffers heavily from a hatred of cops and a "no snitches" culture.

Some updates from today's SF Chronicle:
The Cop's name is Johannes Mehserle - sounds like a nazi name to me!!! Jus' kiddin'...

Officer Mehserle is rumored to be "devastated" by the incident. Again, I think it was an accident. I'd certainly feel like shit if I accidetnally plugged some dude.

Officer Mehserle's girlfriend gave birth to a baby the same day the cellphone videos were released. Fuuuuuck.

Officer Mehserle is being moved around in secrecy due to the deaththreats to him and his family. Yay Street Justice!

THis is all kinds of fucked up.

Fearless Ukemi
7th January 09, 01:27 PM
You're a funny guy. Since when are cops EVER held responsible for their murders? I hope your right but the rioters need to get off their asses and fuck some shit up. In Exarchia the murderers were held accountable but that was only after some pretty major rioting.


Right on, asswipe. Let's destroy some working chumps' businesses and cars because a cop fucked up. GTFO homo.

kracker
7th January 09, 01:31 PM
I think that when yoyu compare incentives for executing a perp vs not, it becomes pretty obvious that this was a tragic accident. That does not absolve the negligence, but the intent is important to consider. .

Ted Bundy didn't have a lot of "incentives" but he killed people anyways. I find it very hard to belive that this wasn't just a psychopath who decided to become a cop. No one's stupid enounh to shoot a guy in the back by accident.

kracker
7th January 09, 01:33 PM
Right on, asswipe. Let's destroy some working chumps' businesses and cars because a cop fucked up. GTFO homo.

Police destroy private property in the pursuit of "justice" all the time. What makes their actions different?

Gezere
7th January 09, 01:51 PM
Ted Bundy didn't have a lot of "incentives" but he killed people anyways. I find it very hard to belive that this wasn't just a psychopath who decided to become a cop. No one's stupid enounh to shoot a guy in the back by accident.
OK I get it now, sorry for being late. You're trolling.

WarPhalange
7th January 09, 02:00 PM
Police destroy private property in the pursuit of "justice" all the time. What makes their actions different?

Doesn't the city pay back for these kinds of damages?

kracker
7th January 09, 02:25 PM
OK I get it now, sorry for being late. You're trolling.

What is troll about what I said?

HappyOldGuy
7th January 09, 02:27 PM
What is troll about what I said?
Gezere is trying to maintain his faith in humanity by believing noone is a stupid as you are posting in this thread.

Honestly, I thought you were just some silly kid till you made the Ted Bundy comment, now I'm torn between monkey pounding on the keyboard and troll.

Frank White
7th January 09, 06:59 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQxBg5Jxp7c&eurl=http://gatheringforjustice.ning.com/&feature=player_embedded

Not sure how to embed this video properly, but it shows a different angle of the shooting than the one I've seen before. It looks the the officers are roughing up the kids in the early part, and it shows the kid getting shot at the end, and the bart doors close. The kid does not look like he was resiting arrest at all.

elipson
7th January 09, 07:51 PM
No one's stupid enounh to shoot a guy in the back by accident.

So you've got experience in this kind of thing I assume?

Perhaps training in the use of firearms under stress? Military or LEO?

Or perhaps you know something of sympathetic responses of the nervous system? I'd be very interested to hear your educated thoughts on that subject.

lant3rn
7th January 09, 08:13 PM
yah some people should just not be given a gun....or any kind of authority for that matter *sigh*

I feel really bad for the guys family. What a crappy situation.

And your idea of a media black out when the police screw up is fucking retarded. Equipose.

People are always going to sensationalize. That not a problem with media coverage but a reflection on the shittacular modern day media outlets.

Gezere
7th January 09, 08:34 PM
Just to show even experienced pple will have ND, in this case he shoots himself.
pj4yUpR1PB0

Equipoise
7th January 09, 09:19 PM
Ted Bundy didn't have a lot of "incentives" but he killed people anyways. I find it very hard to belive that this wasn't just a psychopath who decided to become a cop. No one's stupid enounh to shoot a guy in the back by accident.

I understand the need for a lightly moderated forum, but can someone ex-communicate this retard at least from this thread. He's not even trolling well.

Lant3rn. Not a permanent black out. A brief one to get the press releases in order. The officer screwed up. An investigation into this can be done pretty quickly. 48-96 hours before everything hits the news should be observed. You'd be surprised at the usage of blackouts that you don't hear about for high profile cases..... It's not a new idea and it happens a fair amount.

Gezere
7th January 09, 09:21 PM
I understand the need for a lightly moderated forum, but can someone ex-communicate this retard at least from this thread. He's not even trolling well.
That hurts man!!!:cry:

Equipoise
7th January 09, 09:26 PM
That hurts man!!!:cry:

Sorry about that, I edited it to reflect who I was talking about. I was too slow in posting. I value your opinion as it follows reason.

bob
7th January 09, 09:30 PM
Just to show even experienced pple will have ND, in this case he shoots himself.
pj4yUpR1PB0

That guy simultaneously embodies stupidity and cool under (self imposed) pressure. Shoots self in foot and calmly continues lecture.

Notice the impact it made on the kids. Somebody just accidentally shot themselves in front of them and he then pulls out an assault rifle so they all start going, "WOW, COOL!"

Equipoise
7th January 09, 09:32 PM
They don't say "WOW, COOL!"

They say Nooooooo!

Frank White
7th January 09, 09:48 PM
just heard a cop car in Oakland got rushed, and people are starting to set things on fire. Thats all I've heard. It may be on the news.

Equipoise
7th January 09, 09:52 PM
Great.... Hey at least it's been 16 years since the last riot. I'm wondering what kind if impact this is going to have over here on the east coast. So far, it hasn't sprung up yet. Glad I'm off this weekend.

kracker
7th January 09, 10:12 PM
I understand the need for a lightly moderated forum, but can someone ex-communicate this retard at least from this thread. He's not even trolling well.
.

What the fuck was wronf with what I said. Unless this was an accident, this guy murdered a helpless victim in cold blood for nothing but his own amusement. In what way is this different from Bundy except for his ownership of a badge? Explain if you think I'm a troll and your king of knowledge.

HappyOldGuy
7th January 09, 10:12 PM
just heard a cop car in Oakland got rushed, and people are starting to set things on fire. Thats all I've heard. It may be on the news.

Just a dumpster fire. It's warm but not exploding. At least not yet,

lant3rn
7th January 09, 10:16 PM
What the fuck was wronf with what I said. Unless this was an accident, this guy murdered a helpless victim in cold blood for nothing but his own amusement. In what way is this different from Bundy except for his ownership of a badge? Explain if you think I'm a troll and your king of knowledge.

For one thing, your jumpin to conclusions about the circumstances of the incident. And from what we know and the video they have, it was most likely negligence that caused the death. So anyone who going out of their way to call this cop a murderer to a fellow cop is probably a troll... or retarded. beats me

kracker
7th January 09, 10:30 PM
For one thing, your jumpin to conclusions about the circumstances of the incident. And from what we know and the video they have, it was most likely negligence that caused the death. So anyone who going out of their way to call this cop a murderer to a fellow cop is probably a troll... or retarded. beats me

I'm not jumping to conclusions, I'm still willing to consider the possibility it was an accident. And hey, if indeed it was an accident of any kind I take back everything I said. Hell, it would make me feel a lot better about it. If it WAS an accident I wouldn't even suggest the guy be charged. I just don't see how you can point a gun at someone's head and pull the trigger accidentally.

HappyOldGuy
8th January 09, 12:01 AM
just heard a cop car in Oakland got rushed, and people are starting to set things on fire. Thats all I've heard. It may be on the news.
It's still going. One smashed stormfront and lots of damage to parked cars, Although our resident jack booted thugs will be dissapointed that the "they" responsible for the violence aren't who they expected. It's a bunch of black bloc kids from berkeley.

elipson
8th January 09, 12:34 AM
I just don't see how you can point a gun at someone's head and pull the trigger accidentally.

Have you fired many guns? Fired guns under pressure?

That is the source of your misunderstanding. Please consult a gun expert of your choosing and see what they think about the issue. We'll wait.

Sun Wukong
8th January 09, 12:42 AM
For one thing, your jumpin to conclusions about the circumstances of the incident. And from what we know and the video they have, it was most likely negligence that caused the death. So anyone who going out of their way to call this cop a murderer to a fellow cop is probably a troll... or retarded. beats me

Just so we're clear, negligent homocide is still illegal right?

lant3rn
8th January 09, 12:45 AM
Just so we're clear, negligent homocide is still illegal right?

always yes, but negligence resulting in death does not always = homicide

Zendetta
8th January 09, 12:56 AM
Wow. View from my penthouse window has multiple helicopters over downtown. I heard on the news they smashed the windows of a McDonalds. (lol!)


It's a bunch of black bloc kids from berkeley.

Been trying to figure this out. Many of the protesters at the Fruitvale station seemed to be black hoodie wearing anarchist punks, but TV footage of the wandering mobs downtown are harder to make out - but there seems to be a lot of them.

I believe that the mayor went out and met with them.

KRAZEE!

Sun Wukong
8th January 09, 01:04 AM
From the video, you can see when the gun goes off that the shooter was crouching right before the gun went off.

It is entirely likely that this was an accidental shooting.

There was no apparent reason for the guy to shoot, and honestly, it doesn't look like there was a reason for the guy to draw his weapon.

But let's say there was a good reason for him to draw his weapon. Why were they going all strong arm on him to begin with when it's pretty apparent he wasn't resisting before hand. He had his hands up the whole time before they grabbed him.

In my opinion, this is a great example of irresponsible use of a firearm that resulted in a completely non-sensical death.

That cop is a fucking retard. He doesn't belong in uniform and should be tossed out on his ear.

HappyOldGuy
8th January 09, 01:18 AM
Been trying to figure this out. Many of the protesters at the Fruitvale station seemed to be black hoodie wearing anarchist punks, but TV footage of the wandering mobs downtown are harder to make out - but there seems to be a lot of them.

I believe that the mayor went out and met with them.

KRAZEE!

SFGate was reporting that the core of the main property damaging group was RCYB kids from revolution books.

elipson
8th January 09, 01:19 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/07/BART.shooting/index.html

Officer involved resigns from the police force, effective immediately.

Not really the actions of a guilty person who wants to get away with it.

WarPhalange
8th January 09, 01:43 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/07/BART.shooting/index.html

Officer involved resigns from the police force, effective immediately.

Not really the actions of a guilty person who wants to get away with it.

No, but it could be the actions of a guilty person who knows he was caught and wants to cut his losses.

Frank White
8th January 09, 01:55 AM
SFGate was reporting that the core of the main property damaging group was RCYB kids from revolution books.

My god, those guys are still around? I figured the main protesters would be college activist types trying to get the local kids to riot, but the revolutionary communist youth brigade? Those guys were kind of silly in my book.

Oakland cops have been known to beat handcuffed kids without a second thought, it's a fucked up town, and the cops are often fucked in the head as a result. But I don't think they would shoot someone handcuffed in the back in front of witnesses. I believe it was accidental.

Mas
8th January 09, 03:20 AM
If this hasn't been shown yet, I think this is one of the best (worst) examples of an accidental discharge.

6aSJgcpqePk

My understanding is that as she was holstering her weapon (with her finger--stupidly--on the trigger) she pulled the trigger during a high-adrenaline situation during an arrest similar to the OP.

Ever had a sandwich in one hand and the remote in another, and you went to eat the remote? I kind of think of it like that, except with slightly higher consequences.

Arhetton
8th January 09, 06:56 AM
What an awful situation. Disregarding the officer for a moment, I think the family (parents, wife, daughter) of the man killed should be compensated by the appropriate institution. I think the parents and wife should have any outstanding debts repaid for them (including specifically property), and in particular a trust fund should be set up for the daughter with guardianship by the wife/mother to make up for lost income from the father and provide for the education of his daughter.

Equipoise
8th January 09, 07:02 AM
They'll get a large settlement, don't worry.

jvjim
8th January 09, 08:38 AM
Probably can't get a charge for manslaughter because the cop in question would have had to have been aware of the risk of drawing his weapon (I mean he was hypothetically, but he probably couldn't have forseen the consequences). The state can probably bring a charge for negligent homicide if Cali has such a statute because the state can probably prove the cop SHOULD have been aware of the danger. Remember, that's the diff, reckless=aware of risk but disregard it; negligent=SHOULD have been aware of the risk.

Zendetta
8th January 09, 12:38 PM
Some more updates from the Town:
A collegue of mine used to coach middle school sports to the guy who got killed. I asked him about the kid's character. His reply "He was just the kind of guy to attract that kind of attention". ie, a thug, a chucklehead, the kind of guy who gets in multi-person brawls on public transportation.

THe cop that plugged him just resigned, meaning he won't have to face Internal Affairs. The wording of the news article seemed to imply he was ducking accountablity by resigning, but whatever - the news has an angle too.

The rioters seemed to be a mix of trust fund socialists (from berkeley and SF) and black folks. There was/is a lot of hot rhetoric: an email I got said the cops "executed" the victim, a young black woman quoted in the paper said the riot/protest was for the "murder of a black male".

Unfortunately, the multi-racial rioters busted up Creative African Braids salon and a place that teaches Step Dancing. Ooops. How Do Racial Justice?

I think a bad situation got worse last night. Strangely, Coincidentally, my four-man Ninja Team just happened to coalesce, rather unplanned, at my rooftop apartment for beers.

HappyOldGuy
8th January 09, 12:47 PM
I think a bad situation got worse last night. Strangely, Coincidentally, my four-man Ninja Team just happened to coalesce, rather unplanned, at my rooftop apartment for beers.
You mean worse as in we're likely to see more violence, or worse as in it's fucked up that people trashed innocent peoples shit on top of the tragedy that already happened?

Also, it just happens that my walk from BART to work pretty much paralells the path the problem children took, and stuff is pretty much cleaned up already.

Zendetta
8th January 09, 12:49 PM
Maybe on the first, Certainly on the second.

It DID get Mayor Dellums of his lazy, wrinkled ass though. Thats a minor miracle right there.

HappyOldGuy
8th January 09, 12:52 PM
It DID get Mayor Dellums of his lazy, wrinkled ass though. Thats a minor miracle right there.

He got some minor points from me for the way he handled it. Definetely in comparison to the deer caught in headlights incompetence the other public officials have been showing.

Zendetta
8th January 09, 12:59 PM
He was knee deep, props for that. Up til this point, all he's done is fiddle while Rome burns. I voted for the guy, but have been bitterly disappointed.

Last night was a rare moment of good leadership in Oakland.

kracker
8th January 09, 01:00 PM
Have you fired many guns? Fired guns under pressure?

That is the source of your misunderstanding. Please consult a gun expert of your choosing and see what they think about the issue. We'll wait.

Found a gun expert from another forum. Here's what he has to say. WARNING: very strongly worded, do not read if you don't want feelings hurt


Premeditated murder, plain and simple. Also, for all the douchebags claiming it was an 'accidental discharge', horseshit. Cops are not issued sidearms that have hair triggers. Generally speaking (facts from a fellow on Free Talk Live's BBS who trains cops in firearm handling), it requires anywhere from a 10 to 15lb pull on the trigger to discharge that kind of firearm. The officer put his finger INSIDE THE TRIGGER GUARD! As stated at FTL's BBS, 'Keep your goddamn boogerhook off the trigger'!

Negligent Homicide is the least this asshole deserves. He should have to spend 15 to 20 years at hard labour so as to reflect on his misdeeds. Its also pertinent that the fucking douchebag IA people didn't screen his ass for drugs/achohol immediately following the incident, but 5 hours later.

I also think his fellow 'Peace Officers' (what a fucking crock) should have been curbstomping his ass the moment his weapon discharged. Some else pointed out that, had he gone batshit (moreso than he already did) he could have started blasting other civilians or even his fellow policemen. He also could have 'accidentally' shot one of them or the bullet could have missed his target and ricocheted and killed a bystander. He should have been handcuffed, dragged kicking and screaming to be thrown in general population at the local prison.

Ultimately, the thin blue line will exonerate him and clear him of any wrongdoing and he'll be free to go to some other town and be hired as a cop to do it again to some other person. In a perfect world, a number of the passengers on the train, doing their militia duty in-line with the 2nd Amendment, would have dry gulched his ass the moment he shot that man. In a perfect world, he would have been hauled off to the meat wagon having sprung a hundred leaks.

HappyOldGuy
8th January 09, 01:03 PM
With the big huge proviso that I am not any kind of gun expert or cop. It seems like the fact that he had his finger on the trigger is going to be why he does time.

Fearless Ukemi
8th January 09, 01:19 PM
From the video, you can see when the gun goes off that the shooter was crouching right before the gun went off.

It is entirely likely that this was an accidental shooting.

There was no apparent reason for the guy to shoot, and honestly, it doesn't look like there was a reason for the guy to draw his weapon.

But let's say there was a good reason for him to draw his weapon. Why were they going all strong arm on him to begin with when it's pretty apparent he wasn't resisting before hand. He had his hands up the whole time before they grabbed him.

In my opinion, this is a great example of irresponsible use of a firearm that resulted in a completely non-sensical death.

That cop is a fucking retard. He doesn't belong in uniform and should be tossed out on his ear.

I agree. If this guy does get cleared of any legal trouble, he still needs to not ever be a cop again.

Zendetta
8th January 09, 01:23 PM
I also think his fellow 'Peace Officers' (what a fucking crock) should have been curbstomping his ass the moment his weapon discharged.

LOL. Yeah, this guy is obviously a grounded, sensible EXPERT on this subject matter; thanks for expanding our perspectives with this illuminating opinion.

Gezere
8th January 09, 01:25 PM
Idiots tend to think like other idiots.

Zendetta
8th January 09, 01:41 PM
Well, obviously when a guy chooses a name like "Kracker" he is showing his commitment to a level-headed discourse on potentially racially charged topics.

Incidentally, speaking of inflamatory names, the paper quoted a guy who gave his name as "Mandingo Hayes" (!) I doubt that is his "Christian Name" but its a hysterical thing to tell to a reporter.

Knave
8th January 09, 02:16 PM
Greetings.

LMAO @ the 10-15 lb trigger pull bit.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_11_50/ai_n6209982

Assuming it was a Glock, which it almost certainly was, it was probably in the range of 8lbs.

elipson
8th January 09, 03:41 PM
I was also gonna laugh at the 10-15 lbs trigger.

I applaud the effort kracker, but please try again. If you could possibly reference a known and respected instructor on the issue (some guy on a forum isn't really the credibility we were hoping for) that would be fantastic.

Obviously he had his finger inside the trigger guard. THAT was the big mistake he made. Maybe ask your source WHY is it that people are trained not to have their finger on the trigger?

elipson
8th January 09, 03:53 PM
http://www.officer.com/print/Law-Enforcement-Technology/Responding-with-fight-or-flight/1$43839


Training should include startle response safe handling of firearms. To a individuals with adrenaline in their system, a 15-pound long trigger pull is unnoticeable. Train with the finger off the trigger and immediately correct any officer who does not comply.

Wounded Ronin
8th January 09, 07:45 PM
If this hasn't been shown yet, I think this is one of the best (worst) examples of an accidental discharge.

6aSJgcpqePk

My understanding is that as she was holstering her weapon (with her finger--stupidly--on the trigger) she pulled the trigger during a high-adrenaline situation during an arrest similar to the OP.

Ever had a sandwich in one hand and the remote in another, and you went to eat the remote? I kind of think of it like that, except with slightly higher consequences.

What an embarrassment to Metro. I thought their hiring standards were high so what the hell was that?

Equipoise
8th January 09, 09:07 PM
We just had a OIS today.... from the initial investigation into the matter, the officer screwed up.....yay.

kracker
8th January 09, 10:36 PM
We just had a OIS today.... from the initial investigation into the matter, the officer screwed up.....yay.

That is utter bullshit. Say the circumstances were the exact same except the cop was a private citizen with a gun permit and the victim was a subdued robber on the citizen's property. Would there even BE an investigation or would he just be carted off to jail with a 10 minute open and shut trial?

elipson
8th January 09, 11:03 PM
Situation isn't the same.

Kracker: prove intent. In any way. Prove this officer had intent or motivation to kill this person.

Sun Wukong
9th January 09, 01:51 AM
Cop shoots unarmed black man in his own driveway while he's sitting on the ground. Cop mistook victim for car thief.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/08/baseballer.shot/index.html

lant3rn
9th January 09, 01:56 AM
Cop shoots unarmed black man in his own driveway while he's sitting on the ground. Cop mistook victim for car thief.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/08/baseballer.shot/index.html

Now i better understand the fad of having deeply tinted windows.

Gezere
9th January 09, 08:25 AM
That is utter bullshit. Say the circumstances were the exact same except the cop was a private citizen with a gun permit and the victim was a subdued robber on the citizen's property. Would there even BE an investigation or would he just be carted off to jail with a 10 minute open and shut trial?
First can you explain the dynamics why those situations are not the same.

Second there is going to be an investigation when someone is shot and killed. So please stop being moronic.

kracker
9th January 09, 10:03 AM
Wy would there need to be an investigation when the whole thing was videotaped? This guy needs to be tried by a jury of his peers, and by peers I don't mean "brothers in blue."


Cop shoots unarmed black man in his own driveway while he's sitting on the ground. Cop mistook victim for car thief.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/01/08/baseballer.shot/index.html

That'll teach him for driving his own car. Man, I wonder if it would be possible to get a restraining order from police altogether. It wouldn't exactly be hard to prove a propensity of violence. There are was too many of these "isolated incidents."

Knave
9th January 09, 11:57 AM
Greetings.


That'll teach him for driving his own car.

I'm sure there has never been a time where a car that is not stolen or has been recovered is still listed as stolen due to the failures of the clerks responsible for entering the information into NCIC.

And I'm also sure that there has never been anyone stopped while driving his own vehicle because the vehicle fit the description of one that has been stolen recently.

Yes, those things never happen.

It is perfectly reasonable for innocent people in those situations to resist officers attempting to complete an investigation. Just like it's perfectly reasonable to bitch and moan and sue the jurisdiction when the officers assume your resistance shows your intent to do them harm and they respond with force. Because OMFG HOW DARE POLICE COME ALL UP IN HERE AND TRY TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO LIKE I'M NOT SOME LOUD ABNOXIOUS SMARMY ASSHOLE WHO CAN'T FOLLOW SIMPLE DIRECTIONS.

kracker
9th January 09, 12:14 PM
Greetings.



I'm sure there has never been a time where a car that is not stolen or has been recovered is still listed as stolen due to the failures of the clerks responsible for entering the information into NCIC.

And I'm also sure that there has never been anyone stopped while driving his own vehicle because the vehicle fit the description of one that has been stolen recently.

Yes, those things never happen.

It is perfectly reasonable for innocent people in those situations to resist officers attempting to complete an investigation. Just like it's perfectly reasonable to bitch and moan and sue the jurisdiction when the officers assume your resistance shows your intent to do them harm and they respond with force. Because OMFG HOW DARE POLICE COME ALL UP IN HERE AND TRY TO TELL ME WHAT TO DO LIKE I'M NOT SOME LOUD ABNOXIOUS SMARMY ASSHOLE WHO CAN'T FOLLOW SIMPLE DIRECTIONS.


"We did not know it was a police officer," said Cooper. "He said, 'Stop. Stop.' And we were like, 'Why? Who are you?'".

You lose.

Zendetta
9th January 09, 12:52 PM
Kracker, do you and/or most of your friends wear a lot of black?

Knave
9th January 09, 12:55 PM
Greetings.


"We did not know it was a police officer," said Cooper. "He said, 'Stop. Stop.' And we were like, 'Why? Who are you?'"

Yes, uniformed officers in marked vehicles are tough to identify.

kracker
9th January 09, 01:01 PM
Kracker, do you and/or most of your friends wear a lot of black?

I'm not an anarchist or goth or emo or anything like that if that's what you're getting at. Just your average Joe who's sick of police always getting away with murdering civilians and believes that all should be equal under the law. Right now I'm wearing a white shirt and jeans.

elipson
9th January 09, 01:10 PM
You do know the difference between murder and involuntary manslaughter right?

Can you describe both terms, just so we're all on the same page?

kracker
9th January 09, 01:37 PM
You do know the difference between murder and involuntary manslaughter right?

Can you describe both terms, just so we're all on the same page?

Alright, I'll bite

Murder: Intentionally and deliberately causing death (probable)

Involuntary manslaughter: being a retard resulting in someone's death. (possible)

Zendetta
9th January 09, 01:37 PM
a white shirt and jeans.

SO GANGSTA!!!

Police, profile plz.

elipson
9th January 09, 01:45 PM
And your reason for thinking it was probable?

I'm trying to be objective about this, so if you have a good reason to think it was probably he did it intentionally, im all ears.

kracker
9th January 09, 02:09 PM
And your reason for thinking it was probable?

I'm trying to be objective about this, so if you have a good reason to think it was probably he did it intentionally, im all ears.

-You'd have to be a retard to have that happen accidentally (still possible)
-No possible way the officer felt threatened by the restrained man
-Racial slurs were used by officers (points to state of mind)
-Police tried to confiscate everyone's cell phones after the incident (very suspicious)
-lied about function of security cameras at station (extremely suspicious)
-officer resigned so he would not be forced to testify (not the actions of one caught up in tragic accident)

I freely admit none of this is conclusive proof but with this much circumstantial evidence a civilian would be convicted in a second

elipson
9th January 09, 02:27 PM
-You'd have to be a retard to have that happen accidentally

You're going to have to back this up. We've seen video of persons discharging weapons accidentally. I'm wondering why you have this opinion.

I've done some (but not much) training in firearms with cops and ex-soldiers, and this is something they talk about, that when your finger is on the trigger there is a great risk of firing by mistake. So naturally my point of view is built on how I was taught about firearms.

The rest of your points are valid, and I also don't like the media blackout attempts, but your premise that he resigned to avoid testifying is silly because he will still be facing an investigation. If nothing else this will make the investigation more honest, because it will be pursued strictly by the courts and not by a police department, which has the risk of being more biased than the courts.

HappyOldGuy
9th January 09, 02:40 PM
-You'd have to be a retard to have that happen accidentally (still possible)
-No possible way the officer felt threatened by the restrained man
-Racial slurs were used by officers (points to state of mind)
-Police tried to confiscate everyone's cell phones after the incident (very suspicious)
-lied about function of security cameras at station (extremely suspicious)
-officer resigned so he would not be forced to testify (not the actions of one caught up in tragic accident)

I freely admit none of this is conclusive proof but with this much circumstantial evidence a civilian would be convicted in a second

1) Several people have already corrected you on this one.
2) The claim of racial slurs in an unsourced claim by the attorney for the family.
3) The phrase you are looking for is "evidence in a homicide investigation" this is a retarded argument.
4) Tbd
5) Or the actions of any criminal defendant under the advice of his lawyer. All it proves it that he knows his career is over, and now his focus is on staying out of prison. It doesn't say anything about him thinking he belongs there.

Equipoise
9th January 09, 02:49 PM
They gave him the golden decision: Resign or be fired.

Honestly guys, don't argue or even give credence to Kracker. There's a reason why he's been neg repped into the ground....

kracker
9th January 09, 04:45 PM
They gave him the golden decision: Resign or be fired.

Honestly guys, don't argue or even give credence to Kracker. There's a reason why he's been neg repped into the ground....

The reason is that I have trolled in the past and gave a lot of neg rep(and hence received in retaliation), like more than a year ago. I'm dead serious with everything I'm saying right now.

kracker
9th January 09, 04:57 PM
You're going to have to back this up. We've seen video of persons discharging weapons accidentally. I'm wondering why you have this opinion.


If indeed that is the case that it's very easy to accidentally fire a police gun then why the fuck was his finger on the trigger? I've got limited handgun experience but the one I shot was so stiff there was no way it was getting pulled by accident. My opinion is based to an extent on that, coupled with the fact that police should know how to handle a gun and the fact that the adrenaline excuse as well as the taser is crap because the guy wasn't even fighting back. That being said I'm not ACCUSING or saying I know with absolute certainty. I just think society shouldn't let the guy off the hook this easy. Let him go to court and be tried by a jury of citizens. If he's found innocent by a jury of non-LEO citizens who are presented with both sides by an unbiased DA then I'll shut up.

Equipoise
9th January 09, 06:45 PM
Okay, since you've mellowed out, I'll explain this to you. First off I am an LEO. I have SRT, CST and Felony/High Risk Warrant experience.

1. There is something called a sympathetic reaction in which both arms or both legs mimic the other due to synapse development through specific activities. Clenching your fists, grabbing things, et cetera all develop sympathetic pathways. Now, put a gun in your hand, finger on the trigger and add in a butt load of stress. The chances for error are extremely high. Outside perceived threats make you react. You might duck, jump into a fighting stance, clench your fists, or draw down. So, getting startled with a gun in your hand and finger on the trigger is going to lead to an accidental discharge.

2. Trigger pulls go at all different weights. Officer models depending upon the department of that weapon request lower than standard trigger pulls. Furthermore some models come in single action versus double action. This means one action is performed to shoot the gun, versus the double action which sets the hammer and then fires the gun. On non striker models, you can set the hammer to single action prior to shooting. Remember those old movies, where you had the cowboy slap the back of the revolver? He was setting it into single action to increase his accuracy (trigger pull can/tends to cause low left shots) and rate of fire.

3. Police do receive training on weapons, however this is not the utmost focal point of training. 99.9% of the job is not running and gunning. As such focus is placed on interview techniques, vehicle operations. report writing, crime classifications, evidence procedures and so forth. Much of its clerical. Hence being called police (think policy) versus being called a soldier.

4. Why do you think he'd be let off easy by any stretch? He won't be. He's already lost his job. He's permanently blacklisted for any law enforcement agency in the country as no one's going to hire him. He's going to get sued civilly, and there's a chance he might be convicted of negligent homicide (3rd degree murder/manslaughter, whatever the state calls it). Please do some research into past incidents of this sort of thing. I mean the full research, not some nonsense on a message board or media based radicalization. In these cases the officer is usually always found at fault. The thin blue line that you understand does not extend out to exponential fuck ups. Yes, we take care of each other and won't go out of our way to screw another officer over, but as a whole we won't cover up, make excuses or champion illegal activities or rampant stupidity.

One last thing, your general opinion is acceptable and expected, but don't start trying to use random pseudo-science or anecdotal reference in place of actual fact finding and research, please.

elipson
9th January 09, 07:01 PM
I'm all for having a trial for this guy. I'm even ok with a jury trial. That's totally reasonable and justified seeing how someone died here.

But I don't think the guy should be made out to be a monster, when it may have been an honest and tragic mistake. He may have actually murdered the guy too, but its hard to tell that from what we have and its easy to let emotions interfere with the truth, on either side.

HappyOldGuy
9th January 09, 07:11 PM
Also, the folks around here who are calling it a murder include folks like Nedir Bey who are very much interested in seeing the city burn. So it can be annoying to hear their bullshit getting parroted around the internet.

elipson
9th January 09, 07:14 PM
Every fucking moron who is NOT concerned with justice and instead wants to fuck the authority and fight society is latching on to this for their own ends. That more than anything pisses me off.

Zendetta
9th January 09, 07:17 PM
For the non-locals....


folks like Nedir Bey

are raping, torturing, murdering scumbags closely tied with Black Supremacists.

Zendetta
9th January 09, 07:19 PM
Every fucking moron who is NOT concerned with justice and instead wants to fuck the authority and fight society is latching on to this for their own ends. That more than anything pisses me off.

if you didn't already catch it, well-off young white anarchist douchebags used the occassion to Stick it to the Man by vandalizing a number of black owned businesses.

Well done, Geniuses. HOW DO REVOLUTION?!??!

SFGOON
9th January 09, 07:19 PM
I'd think a murder would have been much more elaborate - not something that occurred under such dubious circumstances. There were no weapons planted and the story seems pretty straightforward.

This is what happens when idiots wave guns around. I went to my brother's graduation from academy a few days ago. Some of the morons who were about to make a paycheck pointing guns at people made me a little uncomfortable.

I'd love to see this officer's service record. I bet he's a dipshit.

The "KILL WHITEY!" crowd is doing what they do, making a hysterical, racially charged case out of some transit cop's tragic dumbassery. Should the officer be imprisoned? That depends on the circumstances. Should the department be sued? Probably - they're the ones who hired and trained that lump.

The second biggest problem with this case, though, is that there's a bunch of people trying to make something out of this that it's not. Toe-picking malcontents who want to fabricate the image of a genocidal society to ameliorate their failures as human beings. It's absolutely ridiculous. Anyone who disagrees probably has toejam on their breath and an 86 Camaro in their driveway.

kracker
9th January 09, 07:26 PM
Okay, since you've mellowed out, I'll explain this to you. First off I am an LEO. I have SRT, CST and Felony/High Risk Warrant experience.

1. There is something called a sympathetic reaction in which both arms or both legs mimic the other due to synapse development through specific activities. Clenching your fists, grabbing things, et cetera all develop sympathetic pathways. Now, put a gun in your hand, finger on the trigger and add in a butt load of stress. The chances for error are extremely high. Outside perceived threats make you react. You might duck, jump into a fighting stance, clench your fists, or draw down. So, getting startled with a gun in your hand and finger on the trigger is going to lead to an accidental discharge.

2. Trigger pulls go at all different weights. Officer models depending upon the department of that weapon request lower than standard trigger pulls. Furthermore some models come in single action versus double action. This means one action is performed to shoot the gun, versus the double action which sets the hammer and then fires the gun. On non striker models, you can set the hammer to single action prior to shooting. Remember those old movies, where you had the cowboy slap the back of the revolver? He was setting it into single action to increase his accuracy (trigger pull can/tends to cause low left shots) and rate of fire.

3. Police do receive training on weapons, however this is not the utmost focal point of training. 99.9% of the job is not running and gunning. As such focus is placed on interview techniques, vehicle operations. report writing, crime classifications, evidence procedures and so forth. Much of its clerical. Hence being called police (think policy) versus being called a soldier.

4. Why do you think he'd be let off easy by any stretch? He won't be. He's already lost his job. He's permanently blacklisted for any law enforcement agency in the country as no one's going to hire him. He's going to get sued civilly, and there's a chance he might be convicted of negligent homicide (3rd degree murder/manslaughter, whatever the state calls it). Please do some research into past incidents of this sort of thing. I mean the full research, not some nonsense on a message board or media based radicalization. In these cases the officer is usually always found at fault. The thin blue line that you understand does not extend out to exponential fuck ups. Yes, we take care of each other and won't go out of our way to screw another officer over, but as a whole we won't cover up, make excuses or champion illegal activities or rampant stupidity.

One last thing, your general opinion is acceptable and expected, but don't start trying to use random pseudo-science or anecdotal reference in place of actual fact finding and research, please.

Okay well for what it's worth I didn't know you were a LEO and a lot of what I said about cops in general and the riot was overstated and written in anger. I apologize for that. We can never know for sure what his intentions were but I'll admit that your 1,2, and 3 make the case for murder much less likely. I do however still take issue with the last thing you wrote. Would this not be a first if he does face trial?


Odds are: If Mehserle is charged with a crime in Grant's shooting, it will be a first.
No one we talked with - from the district attorney's office to lawyers who work either side of police shootings - could remember a case in the last 20 years in which an on-duty officer had been charged in a fatal shooting in Alameda County.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/06/BAVT154HIG.DTL&tsp=1

Is this inaccurate? Do you know of any cases where police in similar situations were convicted? I tried to look around but "police" and "arrested" can't give me what I'm looking for on google. What about the guy for whom this happened not once but twice? Also why wasn't the officer arrested by the others immediately after the shooting? No more inflamatory rhetoric and hate, I promise. I would just like to know.

taijiamn
9th January 09, 08:01 PM
I've found a couple of ND shootings that happend last year, but have yet to finish out trial.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_crime/2008/08/15/2008-08-15_queens_customs_agent_charged_in_mystery_-2.html

http://obrag.org/?p=1326

And one that happend in 2000 that settled out of court.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3898/is_200108/ai_n8956003

Equipoise
9th January 09, 08:14 PM
Look up officer involve shootings on Google, Asia errm Gezere said earlier that he was able to find numerous links on that. Yes, I have known, read about, researched officers to get convicted of criminal negligence, 2nd degree and 1st degree murder. We are people too and do screw up, plus the general public's thoughts of how super trained, smart, tactically awesome we are is way off what it exactly is. As Goon was saying, there are tons of morons in police work.

Now as for him being arrested right after the matter, the other officers involved don't know what's going on, however they will instantly back up the first officer. That's how we're trained. This doesn't mean going Rambo on everybody, but covering down until the scene is controlled. The officer in question wasn't just allowed to go back to his car and go get some donuts. Here's what happens in these scenarios

1. Someone gets on the radio "Shots fired!"
2. Every Rookie and Cavalier idiot goes racing to that location to attempt to get a piece of the action.
3. Supervisors go on scene.

Now mind you the shit is really hitting the fan in a public place like this. Screaming, mini-riots, multiple suspects starting to get even more hostile, etc.

4. Everybody gets cleared out.
5. CSI gets called out.
6. Officer involved usually gets driven to the office until IA is ready for him.
7. The union attorney gets called out.

It's a major cluster-fuck even in clear cut, bad guy had a gun or knife situations. Being that he's an officer, the situation might or might not be justified, it's unclear, therefore he's not going to get arrested. Pending the results of investigation (they do a local,state, possibly federal one) he might be indicted, arrested and so forth.

Let's say we have two non LEO's get into a shooting scenario where we have one guy dead, the other guy is unarmed, not hostile and says it was self-defense. We don't arrest him, he gets to talk to detectives while an investigation is made into the incident. The same thing happens with us.

Wounded Ronin
9th January 09, 08:17 PM
Why can't all cops be zen pistol masters?

Equipoise
9th January 09, 08:39 PM
Resources.

Knave
10th January 09, 01:32 AM
Greetings.

Equipose what state do you work in, if you don't mind sharing.

Also are you city/state/county/etc?

Aphid Jones
10th January 09, 02:23 AM
Greetings.

Equipose what state do you work in, if you don't mind sharing.

Also are you city/state/county/etc?

Well, this is a story all 'bout how...

Equipoise
10th January 09, 09:52 AM
Miami, city.

Kein Haar
10th January 09, 10:26 AM
Toe-picking malcontents who want to fabricate the image of a genocidal society to ameliorate their failures as human beings.

Well put.

In their defense, fetal alcohol syndrome is a bitch under any circumstances.

SFGOON
10th January 09, 05:50 PM
I'm about two inches away from being hired as a cop. As in they're asking me medical questions at this point.

It's going to be interesting playing armchair psychiatrist with damaged people after I get them in handcuffs. I'm looking forward to trying to correlate a suspect's assinine behavior with a particular neural dysfunction. If I'm in the right mood, I may share my insights with the prisoner. I'm sure that will make his day.

HappyOldGuy
10th January 09, 06:09 PM
I'm feeling like it's almost a moral imperative to commit some minor infraction on goons watch, just for the experience.

Cullion
10th January 09, 06:23 PM
Goon would be nervously polite the first time, just like with sex. The second time he would overcompensate and gun you down. After that, he would settle into a rhythm.

This is the law of the wheel, and you all understand it.

SFGOON
10th January 09, 07:37 PM
I'm feeling like it's almost a moral imperative to commit some minor infraction on goons watch, just for the experience.

Oh I can tell you exactly what I'd do to you. I'd arrest you for - whatever. I don't care if it's littering. Then, I'd seat you in the back of my cruiser with your feet up in the air and your head in the footwell, kind of Mork style. I'd find an abandoned parking lot, then do donuts with my siren and lights on until you stopped shrieking in terror. I'd then drag you out of the car, uncuff you, then fire my sidearm into the air screaming "RUN! RUN!!" and watch you flee in dizzy, disoriented terror.

I'd videotape the whole thing and post it to youtube.

Equipoise
10th January 09, 08:42 PM
I'm about two inches away from being hired as a cop. As in they're asking me medical questions at this point.

It's going to be interesting playing armchair psychiatrist with damaged people after I get them in handcuffs. I'm looking forward to trying to correlate a suspect's assinine behavior with a particular neural dysfunction. If I'm in the right mood, I may share my insights with the prisoner. I'm sure that will make his day.

This'll get boring quick as you run into the same shit over and over. You'll also find that talking to the more dysfunctional suspects usually pisses them off, amps them up or is like talking to the wall. You'll save your patience and time if you don't bother. But you'll find that out soon enough. You'll reach a point like 99.9% of us where you'll be irritated before even arriving on the call because you already know how it's going to play out, what's going to be said and what's going to happen in the end. The less talking that goes on, the better. It's usually like a more intense Office Space.

lant3rn
10th January 09, 10:41 PM
This'll get boring quick as you run into the same shit over and over. You'll also find that talking to the more dysfunctional suspects usually pisses them off, amps them up or is like talking to the wall. You'll save your patience and time if you don't bother. But you'll find that out soon enough. You'll reach a point like 99.9% of us where you'll be irritated before even arriving on the call because you already know how it's going to play out, what's going to be said and what's going to happen in the end. The less talking that goes on, the better. It's usually like a more intense Office Space.

Have you seen my 9mm?

Equipoise
11th January 09, 12:27 AM
Yeah, there's always that guy who is weird, squirley, works the desk on night shift and everybody tends to avoid.

SFGOON
11th January 09, 12:31 AM
This'll get boring quick as you run into the same shit over and over. You'll also find that talking to the more dysfunctional suspects usually pisses them off, amps them up or is like talking to the wall. You'll save your patience and time if you don't bother. But you'll find that out soon enough. You'll reach a point like 99.9% of us where you'll be irritated before even arriving on the call because you already know how it's going to play out, what's going to be said and what's going to happen in the end. The less talking that goes on, the better. It's usually like a more intense Office Space.

That will mean my curiosity has been sated. As part of my interviewing process I had to do a few ride-alongs, like 12 hours in length. On a night shift we got called out to this "guy with a sword" call. Obviously the man was a complete and utter nutjob, and yes the officers with whom I was riding found the whole thing very annoying. I myself was extremely curious why he thought this shit was even remotely okay.

In case anyone's curious, they wound up letting Mr. Samurai Sword go free. ???

Aphid Jones
11th January 09, 01:13 AM
In the 21st century, the length of your bladed weapon is inversely proportional to your pimpocity.

lant3rn
11th January 09, 02:29 AM
In the 21st century, the length of your bladed weapon is inversely proportional to your pimpocity.

He would disagree with you
http://www.movieprop.com/tvandmovie/rambo/knife.jpg

Frank White
11th January 09, 03:14 AM
That will mean my curiosity has been sated. As part of my interviewing process I had to do a few ride-alongs, like 12 hours in length. On a night shift we got called out to this "guy with a sword" call. Obviously the man was a complete and utter nutjob, and yes the officers with whom I was riding found the whole thing very annoying. I myself was extremely curious why he thought this shit was even remotely okay.

In case anyone's curious, they wound up letting Mr. Samurai Sword go free. ???

It's not illegal to carry a single edge sword.

billy sol hurok
11th January 09, 08:37 AM
You'll reach a point like 99.9% of us where you'll be irritated before even arriving on the call because you already know how it's going to play out, what's going to be said and what's going to happen in the end. The less talking that goes on, the better. It's usually like a more intense Office Space.
I've always been intrigued by people whose jobs involve constantly being lied to: judges, cops, IRS agents et al. Should probably add "being lied to by amateurs," because they all tend to tell the same half-dozen lies.* Sure, somewhere there's a kid whose dog actually did eat his homework; there's a hitchhiker who has inadvertently left his pot in some benefactor's car; there's a guy who did only have two beers before driving home. But they're fucked, aren't they?

This might not be the thread for it, but it would be fun for the LEOs here to share their Top Five Lies with us -- or any other number that might seem fitting.

-------------
*Apparently there's a (quasi-reality) TV show based on the shit people come up with during traffic stops -- though obviously there's a bunch of Heisenberg Principle at work once you get a production crew involved.

Fearless Ukemi
11th January 09, 10:40 AM
I've always been intrigued by people whose jobs involve constantly being lied to: judges, cops, IRS agents et al. Should probably add "being lied to by amateurs," because they all tend to tell the same half-dozen lies.* Sure, somewhere there's a kid whose dog actually did eat his homework; there's a hitchhiker who has inadvertently left his pot in some benefactor's car; there's a guy who did only have two beers before driving home. But they're fucked, aren't they?

This might not be the thread for it, but it would be fun for the LEOs here to share their Top Five Lies with us -- or any other number that might seem fitting.



This would be interesting. I'm no cop, but I'd be willing to bet the top 3 lies are all related to why someone was speeding.

EuropIan
11th January 09, 10:46 AM
"That's not mine" seems good too

Equipoise
11th January 09, 11:47 AM
1. These aren't my pants.

Crack, Cannabis, firearm.


2. I don't know where my license is/I left it at home/It's in here somewhere.

They then provide a fake name. Some people are good enough to provide a fake license number, birth date and everything else. What's great is I have a program that I can pull up all driver's license pictures in the state. Often the person is habitually suspended which is a felony here. So one felony and one misdemeanor for obstruction.


3. She/He hit me first or I didn't know "x" was a crime and by "x" I mean something so painfully obvious it makes you want to slap the person.

Unrelated Stories:

The other day I pulled a guy for running a light. He managed to stop the car right in front of his house. I thought he was going to take off, but he was a prima donna and figured he'd go home rather than stop immediately. He jumps out of the car. I give him orders to get back in. He resists and I'm inches within drawing down. He complies when he sees that I'm serious. I give him his citation, he has to sign it (this sucks) and return a court copy to me. He rants about going to court, okay, whatever. I tell him to "drive safely." He responds under his breath with "Fuck you." "Excuse me, sir?" "Nothing." He then goes on to his property behind his fence and spazes out. "You heard what the fuck I said, Fuck you!" I responded with "Have a nice day, sir!" The best part is it's all on camera which I can't wait to bring to court and show the judge.

2. Similar situation, except with some psycho Haitian guy. Who just kept screaming and screaming about how I was a liar, etc. I gave him about 5 minutes, then raised my own voice as he began to waste my time by not signing the citation. The guy actually tried to stare me down.... fantastic. Not signing the citation is an arrestable offense, however you try to avoid this situation if you can, especially on a simple traffic stop therefore you try to coax them into it in a reasonable amount of time.

3. I see a car parked in the firelane. This is a great way to pull over a car which leads to warrants, drugs and whatever else. At the least it'll end up with a citation. The car starts to pull off when I get behind it. I kick on the lights and the driver jumps out and starts to pull angles on me. I'm out of the car instantly at this point and ready to ventilate if necessary as I think homeslice is about to pull some funky nonsense. Now this moment is lasting what seems like an hour as do all possible critical incidents. This is some OK Corral shit. He gets his hands up and gets walked back to the car. I get him back in the car on the passenger side as his girlfriend's moved over. Turns out this kid has a suspended license. I tag him for that (yay! traffic arrest!) and the firelane. This kid then gives me this long diatribe of how he's on probation and this'll violate him, blah blah blah. I could care less, however then he starts saying he's in the Eastern Stars and wants my name, badge number, etc. I gave him his papers and released him on a PTA. Come to think of it now, he should have taken the ride, but I was hunting for a better arrest.

All three of these things happened in within an hour of each other.

Goon- One thing I can tell you is this job is all about how you talk to people and your demeanor. People will test you and eye you up to think of whether or not they can run, fight or talk their way out of the ride/citation.

Sun Wukong
11th January 09, 12:03 PM
WTF are the "eastern stars"?

Sun Wukong
11th January 09, 12:05 PM
also, did anybody else think that being a beat cop sounds a lot like fishing?

jvjim
11th January 09, 12:10 PM
also, did anybody else think that being a beat cop sounds a lot like fishing?

Yes, apt analogy.

Also, never talk to the police. Especially if you're innocent.

Equipoise
11th January 09, 12:30 PM
Umm JV. If you're innocent, you should have no problem pointing us in the direction of who committed the crime. Or hey, follow your advice, be on the crime scene and get taken into custody for questioning which is a waste of your time and mine.

As for the fishing analogy, yeah I could see that, but it's tempered by taking calls also. I hate going to calls, I prefer special assignment/proactive stuff. Some calls are day ruiners.... like a homicide or SVU incident. Those suck as you'll be there all day/night in one spot staring at the roof of your car waiting for the defectives/ME/CSI to get there. Plus you're going to have to deal with the morons at the crime scene who pull tons of melodrama to get attention.

Quikfeet509
11th January 09, 12:32 PM
I've always been intrigued by people whose jobs involve constantly being lied to: judges, cops, IRS agents et al. Should probably add "being lied to by amateurs," because they all tend to tell the same half-dozen lies.* Sure, somewhere there's a kid whose dog actually did eat his homework; there's a hitchhiker who has inadvertently left his pot in some benefactor's car; there's a guy who did only have two beers before driving home. But they're fucked, aren't they?

This might not be the thread for it, but it would be fun for the LEOs here to share their Top Five Lies with us -- or any other number that might seem fitting.



Not from law enforcement but represents another group that gets lied to on a daily basis:


t7iHDRsRLE8

elipson
11th January 09, 01:00 PM
I always say hello to the cops outside the bars. I know some of them and even if if I don't I still make conversation. Most of them are cool, you just have to know when you're being annoying, when they are busy doing something else, and when they are just in a shitty mood.

jvjim
11th January 09, 01:04 PM
Umm JV. If you're innocent, you should have no problem pointing us in the direction of who committed the crime. Or hey, follow your advice, be on the crime scene and get taken into custody for questioning which is a waste of your time and mine.



You can ONLY fuck up talking to the police. That's the only possible thing that can happen.

jvjim
11th January 09, 01:06 PM
i8z7NC5sgik

EDIT: I'm not saying the police are crooked or anything like that. I'm not saying that you should never talk to the police ever. I'm just saying that if you're ever questioned, ask if you're a person of interest, if so, ask for a lawyer. If that gets you beat up in your jurisdiction, weigh the opp cost. I know you're a good cop Ep, not trying to throw salt in your game, just sayin'.

TM
11th January 09, 01:21 PM
Then you are part of the problem.

Equipoise
11th January 09, 01:33 PM
Lawyering up doesn't necessarily make for a good outcome. I approach Johnny Q. in reference to being on scene of a homicide. He says I'm not talking to you because I want a lawyer. Okay. He gets detained and taken to HQ. We'll wait for lawyer before we begin questioning, but Johnny Q. now has to pay for his lawyer even though he wasn't the slightest bit involved. He doesn't want to clear up any problems with where he was, what he was doing at the scene, then he'll probably get charged with accessory. See how this goes?

Honestly, this isn't LA Confidential. We have better things to do than to deal with some jackass because he wants to reenact an episode of Law & Order.

This goes for any crime not just the part one crimes. If I show up on scene to an affray and people want to lawyer up to the point of not getting any info, then everybody's going to jail for engaging in an affray in public. Now wouldn't you rather tell me, that some asshole came up to you, was intoxicated and started trying to fondle your girlfriend which is why you you engaged the individual? Now I've got something to work with and if you're not lying to me, you're going to get to go home and have a story to tell your buddies while I take asshole to the pokey for sexual battery, simple battery, breach of the peace and disruptive intoxication.

See what I mean?

EuropIan
11th January 09, 01:40 PM
Are you detaining me?

Am I free to go?

Equipoise
11th January 09, 01:41 PM
Yes, no.

"I want a lawyer."

Okay, you can talk to him down at the jail then.

EuropIan
11th January 09, 01:43 PM
Well I think most escalations happen because it's a tense situation for both parties.

Equipoise
11th January 09, 01:47 PM
What?

Wounded Ronin
11th January 09, 02:24 PM
This goes for any crime not just the part one crimes. If I show up on scene to an affray and people want to lawyer up to the point of not getting any info, then everybody's going to jail for engaging in an affray in public. Now wouldn't you rather tell me, that some asshole came up to you, was intoxicated and started trying to fondle your girlfriend which is why you you engaged the individual? Now I've got something to work with and if you're not lying to me, you're going to get to go home and have a story to tell your buddies while I take asshole to the pokey for sexual battery, simple battery, breach of the peace and disruptive intoxication.

See what I mean?

Are you serious? You'd really do that?

I was under the impression that if you so much as punched someone you needed to tell the cops, "I was in fear of my life and there was absolutely no way that I could possibly retreat, and furthermore I specifically used only the bare minimum amount of force (i.e. punching) needed to defray the deadly threat upon my life."

I mean, I honestly thought that if you punched a dude who grabbed your girlfriend's ass that even if the cops did then arrest the ass-grabber as a sex offender (and then they ruin his life by putting him up on some sex offender public advisory website) that they'd then arrest you as well for punching him without first attempting to retreat and then screw up your life by having the DA press assault charges.

EuropIan
11th January 09, 02:27 PM
When confronted with police most people will feel guilty for no reason or nervous of "*crash* Looks like your taillight is broken"-type scenarios.

I would assume that most police officers have a healthy dose of paranoia which is needed in case of crazy shit.

If it would seems natural that even the slightest misunderstanding could lead to an escalation in the sitation.

Equipoise
11th January 09, 03:14 PM
Are you serious? You'd really do that?

I was under the impression that if you so much as punched someone you needed to tell the cops, "I was in fear of my life and there was absolutely no way that I could possibly retreat, and furthermore I specifically used only the bare minimum amount of force (i.e. punching) needed to defray the deadly threat upon my life."

I mean, I honestly thought that if you punched a dude who grabbed your girlfriend's ass that even if the cops did then arrest the ass-grabber as a sex offender (and then they ruin his life by putting him up on some sex offender public advisory website) that they'd then arrest you as well for punching him without first attempting to retreat and then screw up your life by having the DA press assault charges.


Negative, you have the right to defend yourself/others with a reasonable amount of force. That's like when a young teen calls the police to say their mother/father slapped them for whatever reason. I show up and tell the kid, be glad they didn't do worse, thank the parent and leave. As far as the DA goes, they don't get involved unless it's a particularly heinous case. WE arrest, WE press charges. I'm the bullshit filter for the paralegals, ADA and DA.

Even without the girlfriend involved, if some guy comes up to you and assaults you and you respond by popping the guy, knocking him out, whatever. I'm taking THAT guy to jail for battery assuming you don't start foaming at the mouth at me when I arrive on scene. The guy who's calm, polite and cooperative goes a long way with credibility.

Ian- people are reasonably nervous when you pull them over, but people shouldn't be hostile. I'm a cordial person with whatever I'm doing, esp at work, but the instant someone starts screaming/cursing/pulling the "I know my rights bullshit", I just hope they give me PC for an arrest and at the very least, they've talked themselves into a few citations.

Wounded Ronin
11th January 09, 03:39 PM
Negative, you have the right to defend yourself/others with a reasonable amount of force. That's like when a young teen calls the police to say their mother/father slapped them for whatever reason. I show up and tell the kid, be glad they didn't do worse, thank the parent and leave. As far as the DA goes, they don't get involved unless it's a particularly heinous case. WE arrest, WE press charges. I'm the bullshit filter for the paralegals, ADA and DA.

Even without the girlfriend involved, if some guy comes up to you and assaults you and you respond by popping the guy, knocking him out, whatever. I'm taking THAT guy to jail for battery assuming you don't start foaming at the mouth at me when I arrive on scene. The guy who's calm, polite and cooperative goes a long way with credibility.


Hmm, that's good to know. I know that for myself if a situation ever came up I'd be as conservative as possible so as not to get into trouble but I appreciate that you took the time to type that up and explain it to me.

I guess the basic deal is that it comes down to officer judgement in terms of if someone gets arrested or gets charges pressed or not. In my own work as a disease investigator I have spent enough time on 't3h str33t' to realize that in fact a lot of people who would attack you in the first place are also likely to run away or go nuts if they see the police. Therefore, for someone like me, if I ever were in a situation, just being polite and cooperative with the officer responding while the other guy runs away or starts freaking out or gets aggressive would probably be 75% of not being the guy who gets in legal trouble.

Kein Haar
11th January 09, 03:46 PM
When confronted with police most people will feel guilty for no reason...

What?

Most innocent people go out of their way to be helpful...to the point of just blabbing about their personal feelings on the matter...what they had for breakfast...what schools their kids to go...etc

I'm talking about things more serious than minor traffic offenses.

Equipoise
11th January 09, 04:03 PM
True to that.

Then you get things like: "Are you married?" Yes. "Do you have any kids?" No. "Do you want kids?" No. "Are you sure? I could give you some."

That was by some 25 year old female bystander to me while working a case.

lant3rn
11th January 09, 04:06 PM
True to that.

Then you get things like: "Are you married?" Yes. "Do you have any kids?" No. "Do you want kids?" No. "Are you sure? I could give you some."

That was by some 25 year old female bystander to me while working a case.

The ultimate test of your ability fulfill your civic duty.

elipson
11th January 09, 04:28 PM
The nervous thing is only by people who have never dealt with cops before. Sheltered life kind of stuff.

SFGOON
11th January 09, 04:36 PM
I used to get pulled over in my late teens/early 20 a LOT because I had the need for speed. After about five tickets, I figured out I could beat them 90% of the time by acting nervous as fuck, to the degree the cop got suspicious.

Thinking they had caught me ridin' dirty, they asked permission to search my car. I politely allowed them to do so, and when they didn't find anything they'd almost always let me off with a warning.

I guess after thinking you're going to nail a guy on a drug charge giving them a speeding ticket would be a let-down.

Also, I'm thinking of buying one of those Taser Axon cameras and recording my interactions with people if only so I can post their melodramatic jackassery to youtube.

Equipoise
11th January 09, 06:07 PM
We have cameras on our Tazers. It's an extra 300$ piece of crap with low quality video and added irritation.

TM
11th January 09, 07:52 PM
This thread is proof democracy and liberty are dead ideas and we are doomed to remain a police state. Truly pathetic. After reading some of the responses here I wonder if we deserve any better. When I go overseas I'm going to continue to lie and tell people I'm Canadian. Sorry Canadians, I'll try to behave and not make you look bad.

Wounded Ronin
11th January 09, 08:57 PM
Yeah, a cop needing a pretext to search your car for drugs instead of being able to just randomly bust into your house sure means that democracy and freedom are dead. I mean, back in Soviet Russia, the cops there couldn't even do stuff like that.

Equipoise
11th January 09, 09:01 PM
This thread is proof democracy and liberty are dead ideas and we are doomed to remain a police state. Truly pathetic. After reading some of the responses here I wonder if we deserve any better. When I go overseas I'm going to continue to lie and tell people I'm Canadian. Sorry Canadians, I'll try to behave and not make you look bad.


Care to elaborate on who's responses you mean and why your one sole opinion sets you light years ahead of the rest of us....

When you go overseas, your arrogance rather than your citizenship is going to label you an asshole.

Furthermore, each nation has its own dredges of society. You just think America's worse because that's all you hear/read about it, being American and all. But hey if you were a true cosmopolitan, you'd know all of this.

Wounded Ronin
11th January 09, 09:06 PM
IMO, looking back on my college years, a lot of the left wing students who spent a lot of time complaining about the police among other things didn't understand that not everyone in the world is like them, i.e. highly intelligent well educated goal-orientated college students at a top university.

Since they spent their whole lives around people like that, and everyone at the university was like that, they figured that if someone fails at life it MUST be because someone keeps pulling them down, since it would be pretty much inconcievable to those students to go out and be an alcoholic bum who pees in his pants, blacks out and gets into bumfights, doesn't bother to eat while using panhandling proceeds to buy Steel Reserve, and doesn't wipe after pooping.

I think these people have really good intentions but what they don't realize is that there are huge amounts of people out there on the streets who are absolutely determined to keep doing silly things that hurt themselves and others. They don't realize that with some people, they're just like a cartoon character who keeps hitting themselves over the head with a big hammer.

Equipoise
11th January 09, 10:09 PM
Lulz. Does this mean you'll permanently leave the board?

Wounded Ronin
11th January 09, 10:56 PM
I'd respond to you two asswipes with a kiss my ass but you're too fucking repulsive. I resent breathing the same air you two deluded weenie do. I can't believe I went to war and was a correctional officer to protect ignorant tools like you that have absolutely no idea what democracy freedom and liberty is about. The brainwashing of this nation for the last twenty eight years now seems complete. Enjoy your lives.

Uh, where did anyone here on this thread attempt to articulate what "democracy freedom and liberty is about"? Where is this incorrect definition you're getting so worked up about?


BTW, I resent the time I saved the solar system from demon invasion on mars only to have it ruined by illogical posters like you.

lant3rn
11th January 09, 10:58 PM
Uh, where did anyone here on this thread attempt to articulate what "democracy freedom and liberty is about"? Where is this incorrect definition you're getting so worked up about?


BTW, I resent the time I saved the solar system from demon invasion on mars only to have it ruined by illogical posters like you.

Yah doom was a pretty good game

elipson
12th January 09, 03:03 AM
It's amazingly easy to spot Americans posing as Canadians.


What exactly would a true democracy do in this situation? Let the mob lynch an inept cop? There's justice for ya.

Don't need no trial or nothing. A grainy short video posted on youtube is all society needs to determine what really happened.

Grow up you moron.

SFGOON
12th January 09, 02:39 PM
I'd respond to you two asswipes with a kiss my ass but you're too fucking repulsive. I resent breathing the same air you two deluded weenie do. I can't believe I went to war and was a correctional officer to protect ignorant tools like you that have absolutely no idea what democracy freedom and liberty is about. The brainwashing of this nation for the last twenty eight years now seems complete. Enjoy your lives.

I like to picture you gnashing your teeth and slapping your forehead as your shriek this on your knees in some abandoned basement. I think it's funny. :smile:

Maybe you could even tear your shirt open, that would be excellent. :smile:

You know that scene in planet of the apes where the guy finds the statue of liberty and figures out he's a time traveller and not an astronaut? That's sort of the motif I'm going for here, like:

"DAMN YOU! DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!"

Yeah? :smile:

bob
12th January 09, 03:09 PM
So to help me have a more authentic movie watching experience; if a hangun drops on the floor with the safety catch off, what are the chances of it going off?

lant3rn
12th January 09, 07:47 PM
Well I don't know why your being so hard on TM. Yes, he is over reacting. But Equipose did make a bulshit "Blue Code of Silence" remark about media covering the incident.

Wounded Ronin
12th January 09, 07:54 PM
So to help me have a more authentic movie watching experience; if a hangun drops on the floor with the safety catch off, what are the chances of it going off?

100%. And the bullet going down the barrel will at that time morph into a baby-seeking round.

Equipoise
12th January 09, 08:35 PM
Well I don't know why your being so hard on TM. Yes, he is over reacting. But Equipose did make a bulshit "Blue Code of Silence" remark about media covering the incident.

Don't put words in my mouth. The point of a press blackout WHICH HAPPENS A LOT ANYWAY is for the purpose of avoiding that riot that occurred and other such nonsense. 88+ individuals were arrested and property damaged as a result. Think it's over yet? Once the investigation's done, let everybody know what happened, the end result and so forth. We can prepare for riots and violent crimes ahead of time versus the insta-backlash whether the officer in any OIS is justified or not.

As for dropping the gun and it going off, it's veeeeeeeeeeery unlikely with newer weapons.

HappyOldGuy
12th January 09, 08:39 PM
Don't put words in my mouth. The point of a press blackout WHICH HAPPENS A LOT ANYWAY is for the purpose of avoiding that riot that occurred and other such nonsense. 88+ individuals were arrested and property damaged as a result. Think it's over yet? Once the investigation's done, let everybody know what happened, the end result and so forth. We can prepare for riots and violent crimes ahead of time versus the insta-backlash whether the officer in any OIS is justified or not.

As for dropping the gun and it going off, it's veeeeeeeeeeery unlikely with newer weapons.

Press blackouts where the police don't comment to the press are common. Press blackouts where the press are forced not to cover a story are unconstitutional.

Equipoise
12th January 09, 08:42 PM
If it's likely to incite a riot or jeopardize the safety of persons/the public, then no it's not.

We have the right to regulate the time, manner and place in which you will conduct your freedom of speech.

lant3rn
12th January 09, 08:46 PM
If it's likely to incite a riot or jeopardize the safety of persons/the public, then no it's not.

We have the right to regulate the time, manner and place in which you will conduct your freedom of speech.
I don't like your ends justify the means thinking.

If a few windows get broken over upholding the constitution then that's the price we pay.

Sometimes being the good guys means you have to act like one aswell and be willing to make a few sacrficies to uphold the values you are trying to stand for.

HappyOldGuy
12th January 09, 08:49 PM
If it's likely to incite a riot or jeopardize the safety of persons/the public, then no it's not.

We have the right to regulate the time, manner and place in which you will conduct your freedom of speech.

Near v Minnesota says different, and New York Times Co. v. United States set the bar even higher. The courts almost universally reject prior restraint requests. The only exceptions are things like publishing nuclear diagrams.

Equipoise
12th January 09, 08:53 PM
A few windows is not extensive property damage or violent crime. Ever been in a riot? Ever seen an innocent party get shot/stabbed/murdered as the result of one? Have you witnessed the day after of a riot and seen the destruction? Have you ever had to work in a riot?

Also, a great number of these individuals who rioted were not directly involved/didn't particularly care about the incident and just wanted to destroy shit so don't give me thies liberty or death crap.

Equipoise
12th January 09, 08:59 PM
Near v Minnesota says different, and New York Times Co. v. United States set the bar even higher. The courts almost universally reject prior restraint requests. The only exceptions are things like publishing nuclear diagrams.

You're comparing two separate things. Besides, unless you have a permit to assemble in most places, everybody's going to get shooed away. If it goes any higher, everybody gets arrested.

I'm again to explain that if the speech jeopardizes the safety of society/persons or incites a riot, then it will be stopped.

HappyOldGuy
12th January 09, 09:01 PM
You're comparing two separate things. Besides, unless you have a permit to assemble in most places, everybody's going to get shooed away. If it goes any higher, everybody gets arrested.

I'm again to explain that if the speech jeopardizes the safety of society/persons or incites a riot, then it will be stopped.

You called for a press blackout. That is prior restraint and that is exactly what the two cases I mentioned dealt with. The standard is grave and irreperable harm and it's pretty close to impossible to meet.

lant3rn
12th January 09, 09:03 PM
A few windows is not extensive property damage or violent crime. Ever been in a riot? Ever seen an innocent party get shot/stabbed/murdered as the result of one? Have you witnessed the day after of a riot and seen the destruction? Have you ever had to work in a riot?

Also, a great number of these individuals who rioted were not directly involved/didn't particularly care about the incident and just wanted to destroy shit so don't give me thies liberty or death crap.
we'll have to agree to disagree here.

I saw a riot happen when i was in Montreal when the canadiens beat the bruins.

Also when i was five my mother was pulled over by some asshole with a badge who smashed her window(while i was in the goddamn car). Cut my teddy bear open (apparently their was drugs or a weapon in it) and then give my mother a ticket.

Their are assholes out their. Some get badges. Some smash windows and set cars on fire. whatcha gonna do?

Equipoise
12th January 09, 09:22 PM
we'll have to agree to disagree here.

I saw a riot happen when i was in Montreal when the canadiens beat the bruins.

That's a bit of a different scenario, but did you see the result of the riot?



Also when i was five my mother was pulled over by some asshole with a badge who smashed her window(while i was in the goddamn car). Cut my teddy bear open (apparently their was drugs or a weapon in it) and then give my mother a ticket.

This sounds suspect, can you elaborate?


Their are assholes out their. Some get badges. Some smash windows and set cars on fire. whatcha gonna do?

You do realize that comparison makes no sense, right?

SFGOON
12th January 09, 09:23 PM
A Canadian riot? Were the guys who lost cutting in line or something?

Also - I thought the mounties were supposed to be heroic, like dudly dooright. No teddy bear-slashing window-bashing teeth-grinding oorang-ootans.

You're making Canada sound like it's some sort of shithole. What will you lord over America once your pine-laden Utopia image dissolves? Higher latitude ratings, perhaps?

Equipoise
12th January 09, 09:27 PM
In all fairness, Canada has bad riots. The Mounted Police are some pretty square away guys too. I enjoy working with them.

SFGOON
12th January 09, 09:30 PM
One time I saw this guy up in BC cut in line, and everyone in the line was grumbling about it but he wouldn't move eh.

Folks in my corner of town have been talkin' aboot it for weeks eh.

Zendetta
12th January 09, 09:30 PM
I'm again to explain that if the speech jeopardizes the safety of society/persons or incites a riot, then it will be stopped.

There's a hell of a difference between "Free Speech" when it sounds like "let's wreck shit, people!!! burnpillageloot!"

and when it sounds like "Officer Butterfingers of the WTFPD shot someone under dubious circumstances today".

lant3rn
12th January 09, 10:51 PM
That's a bit of a different scenario, but did you see the result of the riot?

I did, it's scary shit when the ammo in the police car starts going off(this is what i assumed from the loud bangs) after it's been set on fire



This sounds suspect, can you elaborate?
you want to know more about how i had to testify in court when i was 6.
How the dipshit lost his job and but managed to get off with comunity service
because of some bullshit mentally strained legal defense? I realise that he does not represent the majority of cops. But what i'm trying to say is that just because a few douche bags decide to fuck shit up because they can't control their emotions or are just plain batshit. Doesn't mean the rest of us should be penalised.


I did not really put the LEO's actions in context, my mother was sort of being bitch first. But who likes traffic tickets... *amirite

lant3rn
12th January 09, 10:51 PM
One time I saw this guy up in BC cut in line, and everyone in the line was grumbling about it but he wouldn't move eh.

Folks in my corner of town have been talkin' aboot it for weeks eh.

I see you have been to manitoba

elipson
12th January 09, 11:32 PM
Look up Vancouver Riot, Calgary Riot, Montreal riot, APEC riot, or just go to Edmonton on a saturday night.

Kein Haar
13th January 09, 01:59 PM
That said, I just essentially worked for th epast 16 hours. I'm reasonably lit, and I want to shag.

I need a latin wife who statys home and uses anal as birth control.

Not a scandinavian who's all womynz lib and rakes in considerable coin as an up-and-coming bank VP an dstuff.

Kein Haar
13th January 09, 02:22 PM
Ian knows the score.

^5.

EuropIan
13th January 09, 02:41 PM
^5 *smack*

Equipoise
13th January 09, 09:12 PM
I'm guessing Dworkin's not your cup of tea then.

Aphid Jones
13th January 09, 09:29 PM
Just for Equipoise:

7Mlch97EQDA&

EuropIan
13th January 09, 09:40 PM
^ Perfect segue for (http://www.sociocide.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1326156#post1326156)

Zendetta
14th January 09, 05:00 PM
Hear Ye! Hear Ye!

Officer Mehserle was arrested and charged with homicide!!!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28650273/

and when the lawyers shoot that down, we can have another riot!

Equipoise
14th January 09, 05:05 PM
I wish it would say what kind of homicide (1st, 2nd or 3rd). Remember the part about not talking to the police? Yeah, see what happens?

Anyway, I'm interested to see where this goes. I bet there will be a celebratory riot for this.

Zendetta
14th January 09, 05:08 PM
Yeah, not telling more about the charges is weird/not helpful.

The Rodney King beaters were charged with attempted murder. When that charge didn't stick ('cuz it was bullshit) LA blew up. I'm hoping that Oakland won't follow that example.

HappyOldGuy
14th January 09, 05:12 PM
The article says that there will be a press conference this afternoon that will give more details on the charges.

Also agree with zen on the whole charge it right so you don't set unreasonable expectations thing. Plus it's, you know, the actual right thing to do.

elipson
14th January 09, 08:54 PM
This is all about perception. If buddy tries to keep his pride they will riot. He needs to appear humble and apologetic and makes it Emmy award worthy. Otherwise get the torchs.

Equipoise
14th January 09, 09:04 PM
I'm a little concerned about the fact that even his union representative has not made any statements concerning the incident. I'm still leaning towards my "rookie screwed up" position, but there is a hint of arrogance on the guy's face...of course this could be the "I'm scared shitless" look...who knows?

HappyOldGuy
14th January 09, 10:37 PM
Seems like the charge "2nd degree" I.e. malice but not pre meditation.

IANAL, but that seems like an overcharge.

Equipoise
14th January 09, 11:23 PM
What's that acronym?

HappyOldGuy
14th January 09, 11:35 PM
What's that acronym?

I Am Not A Lawyer

elipson
15th January 09, 02:10 AM
I'm glad to know I'm not the only one confused by that acronym.

I thought for a second this thread was drastically changing course.

Sun Wukong
15th January 09, 02:15 AM
So has this guy said it was an accident yet or what? Have there been ANY details from the officer's point of view given at all?

Equipoise
15th January 09, 10:27 AM
I'm guessing his union rep has told him to keep his mouth shut.

HappyOldGuy
15th January 09, 11:35 AM
I'm guessing his union rep has told him to keep his mouth shut.

He's quit. Would his union rep still be in the picture?

Equipoise
15th January 09, 11:38 AM
They represent the individual for the extent of the incident, not his employment.

kracker
15th January 09, 12:18 PM
Tricky situation. If he gets preferential treatment and gets off, Oakland will burn to the ground. On the other hand, a conviction will almost inevitably result in a death sentence (by shiv) that he may not deserve. Should be a precedent setting case but in any case I'm glad for society to see that this is at least gong to trial.

HappyOldGuy
15th January 09, 12:37 PM
Oakland is not going to burn to the ground no matter what happens. Y'all are really overstating the riots. People are really really pissed, but only a tiny handful are violently pissed, and most of them wake up that way every day of their lives.

Equipoise
15th January 09, 12:42 PM
He's not going to get the death sentence or life in prison for 2nd degree or 3rd degree murder....

10-15 for the first and 3-5 for the latter. Both will be truncated. The thing he should have done is left the country and disappeared right after he resigned.

elipson
15th January 09, 02:17 PM
The thing he should have done is left the country and disappeared right after he resigned.

Because THAT'S the way to be an adult and take responsibility for your actions.

And innocent people always skip the country.

Equipoise
15th January 09, 02:22 PM
Of course.

HappyOldGuy
15th January 09, 02:30 PM
Even leaving that aside, ~8 years of actual time versus a lifetime exile on the run seems like kindof a six of one half dozen of the other sort of pick to me.

Equipoise
15th January 09, 07:01 PM
That would depend on his ability to blend in and make money from various skills. Also, extradition laws of specific areas.

SFGOON
21st January 09, 04:58 AM
Nicaragua is the only country in the world with whom we don't have an extradition treaty. Libya is playing nice now, so he would have missed out on Northern Africa.

I bet that man would have done great in the France Foreign Legion.

Sun Wukong
21st January 09, 05:16 AM
We don't have an extradition treaty with China as far as I know.

Shawarma
21st January 09, 09:43 AM
Really? You can't run off to Brazil with the takings from your bank robbery anymore?

SFGOON
21st January 09, 12:39 PM
We don't have an extradition treaty with China as far as I know.

'Cuz that's not worse than prison.

Even without a treaty, I'm pretty sure we can extradite. Usually not having an extradition treaty is a serious diplomatic slap in the face, akin to saying "your criminals are our heroes."

Sun Wukong
21st January 09, 03:15 PM
I hate to break it to you, but China is extremely xenophobic about giving foreign government's rights to things on their soil.

plus, it is extremely easy to "get lost" in china and stay "lost". Hiding out in China is extremely easy if one wants to do it.

Thing one, that place is huge.

Thing two, most people in the countryside are illiterate and only care about day to day survival; including the cops.

Thing three, the local cops there don't give a shit about what anyone in the US government wants. ie, they aren't going to go looking for anyone unless it's someone incredibly high profile like Osama Bin Ladin.

I heard of a case where a chinese grad student killed her husband, cut up the body, and left it in the trunk of her car at the airport and went back to china.

When the US police realized what she had done and notified china, she was caught and tried in a Chinese court for murdering her husband. No extradition if my source was correct.

I believe there is an extradition treaty with Hong Kong, but none on the mainland.

Spade: The Real Snake
21st January 09, 03:17 PM
We don't have an extradition treaty with China as far as I know.

I saw the Dark Knight, too!

Spade: The Real Snake
21st January 09, 03:24 PM
Blame it on the blue flowers.

SFGOON
21st January 09, 04:00 PM
Good - to - know....

Equipoise
21st January 09, 08:24 PM
You can disappear in Brasil too. It'd be pretty easy to get there along with a lot of other South American countries and manage to avoid extradition.

Wounded Ronin
23rd January 09, 08:06 PM
I heard of a case where a chinese grad student killed her husband, cut up the body, and left it in the trunk of her car at the airport and went back to china.

When the US police realized what she had done and notified china, she was caught and tried in a Chinese court for murdering her husband. No extradition if my source was correct.



Sin0wn3d!

Frank White
24th January 09, 01:48 AM
You can disappear in Brasil too. It'd be pretty easy to get there along with a lot of other South American countries and manage to avoid extradition.

A friend did this, and is living rather well in what he consideres paradise. His goal is to stay out of trouble there, I don't know what will happen if he fucks up.

If you have people where your going to, you will be allright, if you have the dough.

Robot Jesus
24th January 09, 02:04 AM
I don't need specifics, but gerneraly what is he running from.

WarPhalange
24th January 09, 02:52 AM
I heard of a case where a chinese grad student killed her husband, cut up the body, and left it in the trunk of her car at the airport and went back to china.

When the US police realized what she had done and notified china, she was caught and tried in a Chinese court for murdering her husband. No extradition if my source was correct.

Her Kung Fu was weak.

Sun Wukong
24th January 09, 04:59 AM
apparently it was good enough for her to stab her husband to death.

Gezere
24th January 09, 10:51 AM
I hate to break it to you, but China is extremely xenophobic about giving foreign government's rights to things on their soil.

plus, it is extremely easy to "get lost" in china and stay "lost". Hiding out in China is extremely easy if one wants to do it.

Thing one, that place is huge.

Thing two, most people in the countryside are illiterate and only care about day to day survival; including the cops.

Thing three, the local cops there don't give a shit about what anyone in the US government wants. ie, they aren't going to go looking for anyone unless it's someone incredibly high profile like Osama Bin Ladin.

I heard of a case where a chinese grad student killed her husband, cut up the body, and left it in the trunk of her car at the airport and went back to china.

When the US police realized what she had done and notified china, she was caught and tried in a Chinese court for murdering her husband. No extradition if my source was correct.

I believe there is an extradition treaty with Hong Kong, but none on the mainland.
I can see why most countries prefer to deal with their own citizens when it comes to matters like that.

I don't remember the specifics but a German killed someone in the US and fled to Germany. Instead of extraditing him they tried him there and put him in prison. (However prison terms in Germany are more lenient than in the US.) IIRC the US was OK with that.

Wounded Ronin
24th January 09, 11:03 AM
Of course you're probably a lot worse off if you should happen to go to prison in a place like Thailand or Brazil for some crime than if you went to prison in the United States.

TM
24th January 09, 12:50 PM
Depends on the prison. The U.S. has some of the most notoriously bad prisons in the world.

Equipoise
24th January 09, 12:54 PM
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.