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Sirc
12th December 08, 01:49 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2008/12/11...e-negotiations/ (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2008/12/11/auto-bailout-collapses-senate-despite-intense-negotiations/)


GM: "We can't afford to pay you at this rate or else we will go bankrupt"
UAW: " WE ARE GOING ON STRIKE"
GM: "OMG GOVT GIVE US BAILOUT SO WE CAN PAY WORKERS"
Gov't: Fuck you GM.
GM: "Bankruptcy it is."
UAW: "What about our monies?"
GM: Fuck you UAW.

Banks: Hey, we need $700 billion cuz we gave it to a bunch o' mexicans in southern california and they can't pay it back lol.
Gov: lol, ok. Here you go.
Banks: lol, thanks!

Chrysler: Hey... you think you could spot me like $14 billion so I can pay my workers?
Gov: lol, no.
Chrysler: WTF? Why?
Gov: lol, we're out of money.
Chrysler: Fag.
Gov: Banned. GTFO.

Now they need to declare reorganization bankruptcy and start over fresh. Fuck the unions. The parasite finally killed the host.

HappyOldGuy
12th December 08, 02:03 PM
Yep, the unions made sure that their only profitable product lines going into a recession with high oil prices were luxury gas guzzlers.

Aphid Jones
12th December 08, 02:37 PM
But the Unions are made up of Communists. It must be their fault.

Zendetta
12th December 08, 02:52 PM
Now they need to declare reorganization bankruptcy and start over fresh. Fuck the unions. The parasite finally killed the host.

If you truly loved america you'd sell your precious Subaru and get a Taurus.

partyboy
12th December 08, 02:53 PM
<-- owns a Chrysler

(except they're made in Canadia)

Wounded Ronin
12th December 08, 08:08 PM
Aut-0w3ed!

WarPhalange
12th December 08, 08:13 PM
Now they need to declare reorganization bankruptcy and start over fresh. Fuck the unions. The parasite finally killed the host.

I know! Labor unions hate America!

elipson
12th December 08, 10:38 PM
Fuck the UAW.

And fuck the execs for banking on SUV's, and for not pushing the Unions harder while they were loosing money FOR THE PAST 8 YEARS.

I think they should stop bargaining with all three companies and bargain with each individually. The best plan wins, the other two can die.

Steve
13th December 08, 02:09 AM
We are past the age when we need unions, simple as that. The media takes care of what unions we're "trying to protect."

WarPhalange
13th December 08, 02:10 AM
Hold on, I can't tell if we're trolling anymore or not.

Steve
13th December 08, 02:13 AM
Sorry, I forgot a punctuation mark.

WarPhalange
13th December 08, 02:17 AM
That makes it more confusing, actually. Tell you what, go have Dagon learn you some English and then tell me what it is you are trying to say.

Remember, if it gets difficult, just sound out the words.

nihilist
13th December 08, 02:23 AM
Unions are for girlie men who can't handle the rough and tumble life of an AIG banker.

WarPhalange
13th December 08, 02:35 AM
Did you know that union workers make on average $70/hour?*






*When they come to work on a holiday and work overtime. But, what's a little fact like that matter when you're a Republican?

Cullion
13th December 08, 08:04 AM
The contrast with how the financial services industry has been treated is indeed shocking. Of course I'm of the view that neither should have been bailed out.

But this isn't about libertarianism vs. socialism any more. This is about politically connected bankers being allowed to loot the public treasury to the tune of trillions. pro-tip: They're not fucking planning on giving any of it back. Nobody should be supporting that, libertarian or liberal.

I'll try not to overdo the Ron Paul plugging now the primaries are in the past, but I think this is relevant:-

UvFZH_adksc

Quikfeet509
13th December 08, 12:45 PM
The auto crisis is everyone's fault at the company, from the exec's that made the shitty decisions while raping the coffers to the labor unions that protected their own to the point of absurdity.


Good riddance. Time to start over. Too bad the financial bailout didn't get as much scrutiny.

nihilist
13th December 08, 12:59 PM
Yeah, fuck the US workers. send all the jobs, and profits overseas.

Bring on the depression!

Let's join hands to make the US a third-world country.

WarPhalange
13th December 08, 01:04 PM
Awesome! I'll order a 6-pack of HIV epidemics and a keg of unsanitary living conditions.

Cullion
13th December 08, 01:10 PM
Yeah, fuck the US workers. send all the jobs, and profits overseas.

Bring on the depression!

Let's join hands to make the US a third-world country.

Protectionism just means more expensive cars, which means other Americans get a hard time financially. There's no such thing as a free lunch. You can't make yourself more wealthy by refusing to let people trade with you. You can only do it by creating stuff other people want to buy without being coerced to via tariffs and regulations.

WarPhalange
13th December 08, 01:25 PM
The problem with that is that the companies would lower the cost to manufacture their products by spending money overseas, but intend to sell their products at home, where a lot of people just lost jobs and everybody is trying to save money.

And let's get serious here, there is no way American cars will have a good market in foreign countries with their current designs.

nihilist
13th December 08, 01:29 PM
Protectionism just means more expensive cars, which means other Americans get a hard time financially. There's no such thing as a free lunch. You can't make yourself more wealthy by refusing to let people trade with you. You can only do it by creating stuff other people want to buy without being coerced to via tariffs and regulations.

Unions, tariffs and regulation are what spawned the greatest age in American history.

The systematic dismantling of the above is what has propagated this financial nightmare.

nihilist
13th December 08, 01:30 PM
The problem with that is that the companies would lower the cost to manufacture their products by spending money overseas, but intend to sell their products at home, where a lot of people just lost jobs and everybody is trying to save money.

And let's get serious here, there is no way American cars will have a good market in foreign countries with their current designs.

Cullion doesn't give two shits about having the unemployment rate double as a result of castrating the US auto industry.

Quikfeet509
13th December 08, 01:33 PM
Protectionism just means more expensive cars, which means other Americans get a hard time financially. There's no such thing as a free lunch. You can't make yourself more wealthy by refusing to let people trade with you. You can only do it by creating stuff other people want to buy without being coerced to via tariffs and regulations.

X2.

Why should an expensive-to-support niche of the Amerikan market be protected at the expense of other sectors? Because they have a long history of supporting the workers? Because they helped built tanks in WWII?

I don't get it. American cars suck and the production of them are inefficient and costly when compared to more successful brands. Why should everyone else pay their hard-earned money to support this one area?





And let's get serious here, there is no way American cars will have a good market in foreign countries with their current designs.


Exactly why supporting them and their failed designs when other parts of the country also need help is just plain silly.

It's politics.

nihilist
13th December 08, 01:35 PM
BTW, the "current designs" are what stupid Americans have been asking for before fuel prices doubled.

Back when the Japanese weren't able to export, they used that time to rebuild their plants which are capable of building several different models on a single line whereas the US plants can only build one model and must be changed each time.

WarPhalange
13th December 08, 01:37 PM
Exactly why supporting them and their failed designs when other parts of the country also need help is just plain silly.

It's politics.

I was referring to "and refuse to trade with people" or whatever that he said. Trading isn't always a good thing if you do it wrong.

Yeah, they should be forced to fuck each other in the ass until they spiral down into oblivion or REALLY fast come up with a new viable business model with cars that appeal to more than men with small penises and women who wish their husbands didn't have small penises.

nihilist
13th December 08, 01:37 PM
I am not so concerned with the manufacturers themselves but rather what having 1/10th of the workforce suddenly on unemployment will do to the already fragile economy.

Quikfeet509
13th December 08, 01:39 PM
I was referring to "and refuse to trade with people" or whatever that he said. Trading isn't always a good thing if you do it wrong.

Yeah, they should be forced to fuck each other in the ass until they spiral down into oblivion or REALLY fast come up with a new viable business model with cars that appeal to more than men with small penises and women who wish their husbands didn't have small penises.



The basic question I'm asking is why shouldn't they suffer the consequences for their actions, and more importantly, why should everyone else bail them out?

nihilist
13th December 08, 01:42 PM
The basic question I'm asking is why shouldn't they suffer the consequences for their actions, and more importantly, why should everyone else bail them out?

I am not so concerned with the manufacturers themselves but rather what having 1/10th of the workforce suddenly on unemployment will do to the already fragile economy.

Quikfeet509
13th December 08, 01:46 PM
I am not so concerned with the manufacturers themselves but rather what having 1/10th of the workforce suddenly on unemployment will do to the already fragile economy.


Linear time LOL!


So if we are going to focus on saving the auto industry in order to protect ourselves, then:

1. Would it really be 1/10th of the US workforce?
2. Is the cost of bailing them out cheaper than paying this workforce unemployment for six months (at regular rates, not the 90% the union receives)?

nihilist
13th December 08, 01:49 PM
What happens to that 1/10th is the population after their benefits stop?

Zendetta
13th December 08, 01:53 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_killed_the_electric_car%3F
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence

Yeah, so Fuck Detroit Automakers.

Cullion
13th December 08, 02:02 PM
Cullion doesn't give two shits about having the unemployment rate double as a result of castrating the US auto industry.

I give three shits about watching it treble because of the burden of supporting a lame-duck industry. What you're proposing is called Zombie Economics. Just keep that fucking reanimation serum coming at any cost.

nihilist
13th December 08, 02:13 PM
I have no love for ANY of these bailouts.

I am only concerned about the systematic annihilation of the middle-class.

Truculent Sheep
13th December 08, 02:15 PM
The contrast with how the financial services industry has been treated is indeed shocking. Of course I'm of the view that neither should have been bailed out.

But this isn't about libertarianism vs. socialism any more. This is about politically connected bankers being allowed to loot the public treasury to the tune of trillions. pro-tip: They're not fucking planning on giving any of it back. Nobody should be supporting that, libertarian or liberal.

I'll try not to overdo the Ron Paul plugging now the primaries are in the past, but I think this is relevant:-

You know things are fucked when Ron Paul sounds like the voice of sanity.

WarPhalange
13th December 08, 02:24 PM
What happens to that 1/10th is the population after their benefits stop?

Already menial jobs such as retail and fast food are so full that kids can't find seasonal jobs, which are in fact being cut due to the economy.

1/10th of the population being added to that pool would just mean a lot more people would be starving. Crime would skyrocket, btw.

Cullion
13th December 08, 02:35 PM
I have no love for ANY of these bailouts.

I am only concerned about the systematic annihilation of the middle-class.

Making them pay for the financial sector bailouts is going to speed that up. Get as much of the money back as possible, stop any more being given out to them and let them fold.

Quikfeet509
13th December 08, 02:37 PM
What happens to that 1/10th is the population after their benefits stop?


They get different jobs? Perhaps they have to work a job that doesn't resonate with them but too fucking bad. Make better career choices next time.

That pretty much goes for anyone that is out of a job and whines about for an extended period. Make a career change instead of waiting for the government to artificially support your industry for another cycle or two.

Cut your expenses. My house is 3200 square foot. If my wife and I couldn't afford the payments, we would either move or have rent out rooms. It used to be adapt and survive. Now it is sit and whine and hope for personal / corporate welfare.

What we need is innovation, not handouts.

Cullion
13th December 08, 02:42 PM
1/10th of the population being added to that pool would just mean a lot more people would be starving. Crime would skyrocket, btw.

Starving? unlikely at this stage.

It's important to remember the costs of propping these companies up. Don't be so cavalier about that, because it can easily cause greater unemployment elsewhere.

WarPhalange
13th December 08, 02:46 PM
Starving? unlikely at this stage.

1/10th+ of the population unemployed and no benefits paying out. Food stamps? Those won't last long when you are trying to feed some 30millin people.

Cullion
13th December 08, 02:57 PM
1/10th+ of the population unemployed and no benefits paying out. Food stamps? Those won't last long when you are trying to feed some 30millin people.

Benefits will be paying out. You're in for harder economic times, but the US economy will still be strong enough to feed the populace. Remember that we're talking about relative declines here. For many, the relative decline to a standard of living far below they are used to will be deeply unpleasant. However, I don't think the absolute level of economic activity will fall so low that starvation will ensue. Keeping a person alive on a basic subsistence level is cheap enough for your country to handle it.

Even if the relative decline is worse that the Great Depression, the absolute standard of living is still likely to be higher.

The danger is that these bailouts will damage your economy's capital allocation to the effect of deeping the depression.

partyboy
13th December 08, 03:12 PM
Q. When do you think we will see an economic recovery?

A. I always worry that our past successes were mostly due to luck, that we just happened to invent something the world needed at the time. For example, the birth of the automobile, or the rise of the Internet - some specific technology that becomes the centerpiece of the economic world and lifts us out of the doldrums. I don't really see anything like that on the horizon right now. Everyone's looking at "green" technologies, which makes me think it's not going to be that, it's going to be something else entirely that no one expects. Or maybe it's going to be nothing and those past breakthroughs were just flukes.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/10/news/economy/dilbert.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2008121209

WarPhalange
13th December 08, 03:16 PM
Hold on America, I'm on my way.

elipson
13th December 08, 03:24 PM
Where the hell do you get 30 million PL?

So let me see here. If the big three go out of business, what is going to happen to all the people who were planning on buying one of their cars? Oh that's right, they buy SOME OTHER damned car! Probably built by a company that DOESN'T SUCK.

And then these companies will start producing more cars, which will require hiring skilled employees, who will all be looking for jobs after the big three go out of business!

Seriously now. All the cars that would have been sold by a subsidized and shitty big three company will still be sold by non-subsidized non-sucking car maker, most of which have plants in the US that employee US people.

WarPhalange
13th December 08, 03:50 PM
Where the hell do you get 30 million PL?

I goofed. I took 10% US population, not 10% working population.


And then these companies will start producing more cars, which will require hiring skilled employees, who will all be looking for jobs after the big three go out of business!

Seriously now. All the cars that would have been sold by a subsidized and shitty big three company will still be sold by non-subsidized non-sucking car maker, most of which have plants in the US that employee US people.

Yup. Toyota makes most of its cars in the US. But there's no telling if Toyota would just give us the royal Fuck You and go with their long-time buddies, the Chinese, instead.












Yes, I was joking about the buddies thing.

Cullion
13th December 08, 03:55 PM
'We must make everybody else pay more taxes or pay more for their cars to keep people in jobs protected by an agreement from the 60s that ensures they are paid way more than their skills would bring in on the open market' is not a route to prosperity for your country, or those people's own long-term employment prospects.

You might as well just send them home and pay them $30+ dollars an hour in welfare and let the factories close. At least there'll be some saving on the cost of running the place. This kind of protectionism is no answer to your problems.

elipson
13th December 08, 04:08 PM
http://money.cnn.com/2008/12/12/news/companies/auto_future/index.htm?postversion=2008121314


Ford Motor (F, Fortune 500) has more cash on hand despite ongoing losses there as well. So it is not expected to tap into funds in the near term. But it has said it might need money later in 2009 if auto sales do not improve.

Solution? Let GM die, and watch Ford pick up the rest of the market and be profitable again.

Seriously. These damned car companys aren't a single team. Treat them individually.

HappyOldGuy
13th December 08, 05:55 PM
I am not so concerned with the manufacturers themselves but rather what having 1/10th of the workforce suddenly on unemployment will do to the already fragile economy.

^^^This. If this was happening in 1998, I'd a been all "fuck the old economy." But now it's hip to be sucking on the taxpayers tit. And I'm all about the hip.

Cullion
13th December 08, 06:03 PM
You're just not thinking about what the burden of supporting them is likely to do to the rest of the economy.

Zendetta
13th December 08, 06:09 PM
out of curiosity, do any of you pro-bailout folks drive an american car?

HappyOldGuy
13th December 08, 06:12 PM
You're just not thinking about what the burden of supporting them is likely to do to the rest of the economy.
No, I'm accepting a drain on growth in the post crash economy in return for a smaller crash now. Like a doctor using drugs that he knows will have nasty long term side effects to keep a patient from dying immediately.

Edit: I'm a public transport/bike hippy, but I do own a chrysler.

Cullion
13th December 08, 06:18 PM
No, I'm accepting a drain on growth in the post crash economy in return for a smaller crash now.

Do you think it's been working so far ? I think it will make the crash deeper and more prolonged.


Like a doctor using drugs that he knows will have nasty long term side effects to keep a patient from dying immediately.

I think it's more like a doctor prescribing a completely inappropriate medicine which actually makes the patient sicker and dependent on the medicine because the rep from the pharmaceutical company bought him dinner and then told him some scare stories about what would happen if he prescribed bed rest and a healthier diet.

Zendetta
13th December 08, 06:18 PM
I do own a chrysler.


Ah, a Patriot AND a Masochist!

elipson
13th December 08, 07:10 PM
Did anyone else see last night some chick government talking head telling ppl that they should buy stock in the big three to help the economy?

If no one wants to buy stock in those companies, maybe there is a damned reason?

Go buy stock in Toyota!!

Dagon Akujin
13th December 08, 08:05 PM
From the Detroit area, with lots of family/friends in the auto-industry (my Dad's a Ford retiree, my girlfriend's dad works for Chrysler). Now, I completely understand why someone would not support the auto bailout and just give the middle-finger to the Big 3.


However, I cannot understand at all why someone who would have supported the $700 billion, no questions asked, no rules, do whatever with it if you want, white collar, rich fucktard bailout, if they don't also support the auto-bailout. Those people can suck a dick.



Here's another thing I'd like to add though: Fuck Republicans. They've long said "Oh, you fucking jobless quacks on welfare. Go get a fucking job you lazy ass." And they are still saying that now and will continue saying that after there simply are no jobs to be had. What then? You'll just say more people are "unAmerican" (Mark Levin said that only Liberal Democrats could have lost their homes in the current market because only Liberal Democrats are that irresponsible enough to lose their home). Fuck you, Republicans. I see where this is going. There are plenty of people out there who would like to work. Are you still going to be calling them names when they can't find a job?


Oh, and this whole Nationalization thing just proves more and more that Bush is a Nazi.

Cullion
13th December 08, 08:10 PM
I would find it morally if not intellectually easier to defend the auto bailout than the bank bailout. The auto bailout is a clumsy, burdensome way of trying to provide large numbers of people of relatively humble means with a continued source of income.

The bank bailout is basically a heist benefitting a tiny economic elite, but even the cover for it is stupid:-

'We're in trouble because the population at large is in way too much debt. So much debt that they're starting to default on it. The only solution here is to put their public treasury much deeper into debt, so that the people who loaned them the money can, uh, offer to lend them more'.

I can't believe so many people in this board defended it.

nihilist
13th December 08, 08:29 PM
Nor can I.

OZZ
14th December 08, 12:46 PM
I didn't read the whole thread..but in my perspective. I don't think a bailout is the answer. A reasonable loan is one thing, but only if they agree to switch over , almost completely, to manufacturing energy efficient vehicles and speed up the phasing out of fossil fueled cars.
Otherwise fuck 'em. I feel bad for the blue collar workers. But those fucking CEO's sure as hell don't deserve to be making $26 million a year or whatever their astronomical salaries were. No way..
The Canadian auto sector is much smaller so it is easier for me, I supose , to snub them because the number of people out of jobs up here is nothing compared to what It would be down there. But this industry has been in bed with the oil companies and giving it to us all up the ass for many, many years. I find it hard to sympathize with them.

Sun Wukong
14th December 08, 12:46 PM
I'm so glad i sold my shares.

Sun Wukong
14th December 08, 12:51 PM
This thread needs more leet speak.

GM & Co.: We GONNA git b41l3d 0u7!

UAW: we want to make MAOR monah!!! U Pay NOW PLZ!

GM & Co. : ZOMG H4XXOR'D We LOSE!! Game over, you go home now.

W4ll Str33t, d0wn s1z3rz: 4LL ur jobs belong belong to US!

UAW: NO W4Y!

OZZ
14th December 08, 01:07 PM
My father in law invested over $20,000 in long term bonds with Ford.
I don't know if they are in as bad shape as the other two..but that money is looking less of a 'sure thing' now.

Edit: I just checked wioth my wife and he actually invested $100,000.00 !! Not $20,000.00 ..FUCK!!

Dark Helmet
14th December 08, 01:13 PM
I just can't feel any sympathy for any auto-worker.Whether it's the old lady in human resources or the guy who tests the cigarette lighter.It hasn't been a good career path since the 60's so what did these guys think?That there jobs would last forever.

The american car industry has been going down the drain since the first Jap car arrived.

But in there defense the unions probably promised to fight for them.

Cullion
14th December 08, 01:15 PM
Ford might even go on to prosper from picking up some of GM and Chrysler's former custom, but I'd be worried about the value of the bonds issued with an interest rate priced in the last few years, because we might be in for high inflation and rising interest rates soon.

Dark Helmet
14th December 08, 01:26 PM
It would be interesting to see if another European car company besides VW and BMW would take advantage of this situation to enter into the american car market.

Isn't the chinese cherry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chery_Automobile) supposed to begin in the US as well this year?

Cullion
14th December 08, 01:30 PM
Don't you have Italian companies like Fiat, or French companies like Renault in the US?

Dark Helmet
14th December 08, 01:35 PM
Don't you have Italian companies like Fiat, or French companies like Renault in the US?
I see old Peugeot's and sometimes old Renault 5's here once in a while and I always LOL!.But the answer is plain NO.

HappyOldGuy
14th December 08, 01:40 PM
Don't you have Italian companies like Fiat, or French companies like Renault in the US?

Yeah. That's who the big 3 point to when they try to claim that they make a quality product.

SFGOON
14th December 08, 01:43 PM
Don't forget Yugo, I've seen one of those once. Apparently, Amerikunz only like to drive quality imported cars from Europe, and only if they're wealthy hippies/yuppies (the border between the two is becoming quite nebulous.)

Like. hippies/yuppies LOVE to drive VW bugs, which were originally designed by Dr. Porsche, AT THE BEHEST OF HITLER!!! Oh, irony!!

Dark Helmet
14th December 08, 03:44 PM
Don't you have Italian companies like Fiat?I see Ferrari's a lot in the summer.

Cullion
14th December 08, 04:27 PM
Yeah. That's who the big 3 point to when they try to claim that they make a quality product.

But those cars, whilst not being status symbols, are more reliable and fuel efficient than pretty much anything made in the US. And the big gas-hungry US cars aren't even stylish or well engineered, they're just.. big, and expensive to run.

Cullion
14th December 08, 04:29 PM
Like. hippies/yuppies LOVE to drive VW bugs, which were originally designed by Dr. Porsche, AT THE BEHEST OF HITLER!!! Oh, irony!!

I don't see the irony. The Nazi leadership were armed bohemians trying to protect the common man from predatory jewish sexual/moneylending practices. They introduced no-smoking regulations and a very well run nationalised healthcare system. What's not to like?

SFGOON
14th December 08, 05:14 PM
But those cars, whilst not being status symbols, are more reliable and fuel efficient than pretty much anything made in the US. And the big gas-hungry US cars aren't even stylish or well engineered, they're just.. big, and expensive to run.

YEAH but...

Many of those Euro cars don't hold up to the crash safety standards we have in the US.

And hey, you want classy? How bout a nice champagne colored Cadillac with gold rims? THAT is class!

nihilist
14th December 08, 05:19 PM
What's not to like?

Their lose weight fast programs were proven to be unhealthy.

elipson
14th December 08, 05:22 PM
But their oven technology is second to none.

elipson
14th December 08, 05:23 PM
awww....



... so that's what shame feels like......

Cullion
14th December 08, 05:25 PM
And hey, you want classy? How bout a nice champagne colored Cadillac with gold rims? THAT is class!

Oldschool american cars are classy, and there is a market for them in Europe with collectors.

This would be expensive to run, but it is a cool car:-

http://www.vfrclc.org/images/RRob69.jpg

But you don't make them any more. You make clunky bloated shit like this:-

http://www.uncrate.com/men/images/2007-cadillac-escalade.jpg

No class.

Cullion
14th December 08, 05:28 PM
Many of those Euro cars don't hold up to the crash safety standards we have in the US.

I'm guessing it's like us making a big fuss about the hormones and medications you use in your livestock. There's a spoonful of genuine public safety concern sweetening a big gulp of protectionism.

SFGOON
14th December 08, 07:25 PM
Not everything is about money you know. Some of the roads Europeans drive on were built by people who could form a phalanx. Quaint, but a bit too narrow for anything more than a horse.

And, as for what we don't make anymore;

http://www.unique-export.com/res/Default/2010camaro1.jpg

Unfortunately, we may never see this one.

partyboy
14th December 08, 07:34 PM
http://www.drulie.com/IMAGES/2008Challenger_b.jpg

this drove past me yesterday and I jizzed in my pants

Cullion
14th December 08, 07:35 PM
This is your problem. Both of those cars suck from a style perspective. They look like corny pastiches of your former glory. No. They wouldn't appeal outside the US. I bet the engineering is of the same shitty quality too.

Seriously, your problem is only down to 'unions' in small part. Germany has extremely powerful unions. I don't have the exact financial comparison to hand, but basically a German getting a job in one of their car plants is made for life. In Bavaria at the BMW plant, the unions even managed to negotiate a rule that said that the company must supply beer in the mornings.

I'm not shitting you.

How does German industry get away with this?

German cars are not only fairly cool (not totally cool, but pretty fucking good), but they are precision engineered reliable marvels of what a workforce dedicated to being proud of what they make can produce. They last and last. They are efficient. When I was doing the 'general engineering' part of my undergraduate degree, I had a class on planned obselesence, and it was explained to me, using sourced figures, that if only you could get your hands on enough capital in one hit, it was cheaper to buy a new Porsche than to buy a french, british, italian or asian economy car and replace it when it wore out, because Porsches were just that well made they could reasonably be expected to last for decades*. It would actually make sense for banks to offer 30 year payment terms like mortgages on Porsches built in Germany, the depreciation is that good.

This doesn't include fuel costs, but it would be possible to make an 'economy' car to the same engineering standards.

ojgsxr6
14th December 08, 07:41 PM
1/10th of the population being added to that pool would just mean a lot more people would be starving. Crime would skyrocket, btw.

D'Oh

As Budget Shrinks, NYPD Faces Possibility Of Layoffs (http://www.ny1.com/content/news_beats/law_enforcement/90568/as-budget-shrinks--nypd-faces-possibility-of-layoffs/Default.aspx)

Cullion
14th December 08, 07:48 PM
This is what happens when you let an elite panic you into letting them loot your public treasury. God damn it. I try to warn people but nobody trusts me.

It's sick I tell you, sick. I'm watching people I disagree with, but like, be stolen from to the tune of trillions with a big panic-trick, and I can't even get them to listen. It's like watching the boy who cried wolf in reverse.

jvjim
14th December 08, 11:37 PM
After the Great Demise of American Capitalism (the bailout), there is no justifiable reason NOT to give the Big 3 the money. I mean, we're social corporatists now so why not spread the wealth around where at least a few little guys get some crumbs?

Sirc
15th December 08, 04:52 AM
The problem with that is that the companies would lower the cost to manufacture their products by spending money overseas, but intend to sell their products at home, where a lot of people just lost jobs and everybody is trying to save money.

And let's get serious here, there is no way American cars will have a good market in foreign countries with their current designs.

Ford Europe and Ford Australia are fucking awesome. Their designs are fucking great and doing awesomely. So shut the fuck up.

The only reason they haven't brought their foreign lineup here to the US is because everyone wants a big fucking SUV or a stupid Truck. So that's what they did. The left the Focus RS, the Ka, the falcon, etc. etc. outside of the US and left us with stupid shit cars like the Freestyle, Explorer, etc.

More people would buy the Foreign Ford designs than they would the domestic designs. Hence why they are bringing the Ford Ka over and talks of bringing the Focus RS from England over. Outside of the US, Ford's cars are comparable to Subaru, Nissan, Lotus, Renault, Peugot, etc. etc.

So I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

Sirc
15th December 08, 04:52 AM
Oh and those of you supporting the UAW have no clue how fucking retarded they are. They're the PETA of the union world.

Sirc
15th December 08, 04:56 AM
If you truly loved america you'd sell your precious Subaru and get a Taurus.

If Ford brings over the Focus RS and sells it for the same price they did in the UK, then I would seriously buy it.

Cheap AWD performance turbo car that looks awesome? Yes.


2009 Focus RS:
http://www.rsownersclub.co.uk/ford_focus_st_08_03.jpg

http://www.mikkohirvonen.com/galleria_focus2007i.jpg

I think it looks MUCH better than the current STi.

elipson
15th December 08, 12:52 PM
Sircs madness has a grain of truth in it. I saw lots of fords in Europe, just not the models you see over here.

Didn't see a single F-150 or Explorer. Saw lots of little cheap hatch backs and small ford cars though.

elipson
15th December 08, 04:05 PM
Ahahaha saw this and had to share!

http://www.despair.com/government.html
http://images.despair.com/products/demotivators/government.jpg

WarPhalange
15th December 08, 04:40 PM
Ford Europe and Ford Australia are fucking awesome. Their designs are fucking great and doing awesomely. So shut the fuck up.

So why is Ford begging for money if it's doing so great in other countries?


The only reason they haven't brought their foreign lineup here to the US is because everyone wants a big fucking SUV or a stupid Truck. So that's what they did. The left the Focus RS, the Ka, the falcon, etc. etc. outside of the US and left us with stupid shit cars like the Freestyle, Explorer, etc.

No, the only reason people want a big fucking SUV or stupid Truck is because they are marketed here so much. They wouldn't have Toby fucking Keith trying to sell Fords if people naturally wanted them.

Cullion
15th December 08, 05:14 PM
After the Great Demise of American Capitalism (the bailout), there is no justifiable reason NOT to give the Big 3 the money. I mean, we're social corporatists now so why not spread the wealth around where at least a few little guys get some crumbs?

Good money after bad. You'd be better off trying to get the money back from the banks.

Sirc
15th December 08, 06:23 PM
So why is Ford begging for money if it's doing so great in other countries?

Why would they take money from another part of the company and use it to supplant another one when they can get money from an outside source?

SFGOON
16th December 08, 08:28 PM
Why not make the banks loan the money to the car companies? Duh!

elipson
16th December 08, 09:38 PM
Because the banks realize it would be a shitty loan and they might not get it back.

Oh the irony.

Dagon Akujin
17th December 08, 01:45 AM
I try to warn people but nobody trusts me.


Its because yer a foriner.

elipson
17th December 08, 02:19 AM
Its cuz hes old.

Truculent Sheep
17th December 08, 10:54 AM
It's ironic that I'm presently dwelling in Dagenham these days - it's where Ford's big UK plant was, but is now mostly shut down. It's an empty site now. I wonder how Detroit will look if the Big Three Lame Ducks shut?

Euro-made Fords are very good, mind you.

Cullion
18th December 08, 10:34 AM
I worry about the BMW/Mini plant in Oxford. That's a lot of local employment, and minis aren't exactly cheap for a car of their class.

Spade: The Real Snake
18th December 08, 10:40 AM
So now I heard on the news that GM and Chrysler are talking merger.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=acQbbFn35W7M&refer=home

Sun Wukong
18th December 08, 11:45 AM
I think what we should do is merge all of the cars into a national patriotically minded car company that makes economically sensible, dependable cars and plenty of jobs for everyone!

oh wait...




http://z.hubpages.com/u/99721_f520.jpg

Spade: The Real Snake
18th December 08, 11:48 AM
GM FORDYLSER!

DAS KAR MIT DA PEOPLES!

Cullion
18th December 08, 11:54 AM
I think what we should do is merge all of the cars into a national patriotically minded car company that makes economically sensible, dependable cars and plenty of jobs for everyone!

Well.. it worked didn't it?

You can't make an omellette without breaking eggs.

Truculent Sheep
18th December 08, 12:00 PM
British Leyland - as ridiculed by Basil Fawlty.

f4S5uTBVK6U

Sun Wukong
18th December 08, 01:49 PM
I m teh golden god of day trading. I shorted GM this morning like a mother fucker and have been making a mint all fucking morning!!! WOOTTTT!!!!!!

nihilist
18th December 08, 01:51 PM
$100 is not a "mint".

Sun Wukong
18th December 08, 01:54 PM
actually, i've made nearly enough to buy a new car. Not hard to fucking do when the price had fallen by 17% since opening.

And look! My trailing stop just kicked in and I'm sold at -16%.

I r L33t

Cullion
18th December 08, 01:54 PM
I m teh golden god of day trading. I shorted GM this morning like a mother fucker and have been making a mint all fucking morning!!! WOOTTTT!!!!!!

I wish you all the best of luck in the world. I really do. But short term trading based on one's ability to guess the minute to minute fluctuations of individual stocks is gambling, not investment. I salute your courage, but promise us you won't get hooked on the adrenalin rush a blow a ton. eh?

Sun Wukong
18th December 08, 01:55 PM
dude, with this kind of volatility I'm not really gambling that much. The odds I'm looking at now, no sane casino owner in the world would ever agree to.

Seriously man, this shit is retarded easy.

It's all about risk management. The only thing that smells of gambling is that the price of the stock is so low. Which means the price can change very, very fast.

Cullion
18th December 08, 01:59 PM
dude, with this kind of volatility I'm not really gambling that much.

check yourself before you wreck yourself bro.

Sun Wukong
18th December 08, 02:04 PM
Granted had that huge spike in the ticker gone the other direction i would have lost quite a bit. But someone would have had to put in a major buy order for that to happen and I just don't see it happening with GM in a death spasm like it is.

IT IS POSSIBLE, and YES, I am gambling a little. But that was fun.

nihilist
18th December 08, 02:25 PM
So when do you take delivery of you new Adobe (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=adobe+car+commercial+snl&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=)?

Sun Wukong
18th December 08, 03:26 PM
I'm thinking about going for the Super Adobe Chia Pet Edition. My wife has a thing for Mashimaru

Truculent Sheep
21st December 08, 08:59 PM
http://buffalobeast.com/133/bigthree.jpg

EuropIan
22nd December 08, 12:12 PM
YEAH but...

Many of those Euro cars don't hold up to the crash safety standards we have in the US.

And hey, you want classy? How bout a nice champagne colored Cadillac with gold rims? THAT is class!
What decade are you living in?

billy sol hurok
25th December 08, 04:34 PM
rAqPMJFaEdY

WarPhalange
26th December 08, 03:59 AM
rAqPMJFaEdY

I give it a 7/10. The constant bashing of democrats while completely ignoring the fact that GOPs support this shit too and were a huge reason the banks fell is a bit too much. The Al Gore engine was nice, though. Just the last bits were a bit too much, like "Okay I get it, move on to something else".