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SFGOON
31st May 08, 11:30 AM
So if I were to make a hydrogen injector for my car would it really save that much gas? I can see how that would work in theory. I can also see how combusting hydrogen would produce a lot of water in my exhaust system.

WarPhalange
31st May 08, 11:54 AM
Hydrogen is great, but how do you acquire it? If you have an electrolysis machine in your car splitting water to get the hydrogen, then you aren't getting much back, because burning hydrogen simply makes it fuse back with oxygen and that's how you get water. AT MOST you'll get back what you put in. Usually a lot less.

Now, the caveat of this is I heard a guy mixing hydrogen with his fuel, which I don't know what affects it can have. Maybe it makes the whole process more efficient so even though you don't break even on the hydrogen burning part, it makes the gasoline burn more efficiently so you get a net gain?

My opinion: bullshit.

Kein Haar
31st May 08, 01:37 PM
Yes, but stealing hydrogen and making it work would make for great savings.

Because YOU'RE not the one making it. Some other guy is...and then you're stealing it.

SFgoon doesn't care about the earth. This is hi-tech coupon clipping.

Neildo
1st June 08, 02:27 AM
i predict

http://www.flatrock.org.nz/topics/flying/assets/hindenburg.jpg

Keith
1st June 08, 02:54 AM
AT MOST you'll get back what you put in. Usually a lot less.
Doesn't ye olde Second Law of Thermodynamics guarantee that you will always bet back less than you put in?

Sirc
1st June 08, 03:28 AM
So if I were to make a hydrogen injector for my car would it really save that much gas? I can see how that would work in theory. I can also see how combusting hydrogen would produce a lot of water in my exhaust system.

People have been doing this for years. I know it better as alcohol injection or water injection.

I had a car that had alcohol injection in it and I used it to essentially just raise the octane and be able to run higher boost without predetonation and having the pistons have sex with the valves.

Injecting hydrogen or whatever is the same concept as alcohol or water injection. Basically you will be injecting an atomized mixture of 50% water and 50% methanol/alcohol/ethanol/whatever into your intake stream producing not only a colder air charge but also increasing the octane of the fuel by making it combust slower. It does actually increase your fuel mileage, but you have to have it tuned for it.

That gets pretty technical so I won't really go into it, but basically, if it's tuned for it, you'll get much better gas mileage. My car that had water injection (50/50 of water and rubbing alcohol) got 35mpg and made 300whp in a 2500lbs car. Pretty good considering it was rated stock at only 22mpg.

If you REALLY want to get the best gas mileage out of your car with modifications, get some sort of piggy back ECU or go with a complete stand alone ECU (Not recommended in California, the environmentalists hate cars and don't understand them) and have it part throttle tuned for gas mileage. My friend's 450whp 11 second 1/4 mile drag racing Civic gets 45mpg on the "street tune" which nets him 350whp and 45mpg. While his "race tune" gets him like 11mpg and 450whp. Once it's tuned you literally flip a switch and it goes into whatever tune you want out of it.

Edit: Edited for grammar shit.

SFGOON
1st June 08, 10:17 AM
Does this tuning involve replacing the camshaft? (The spinning bar of lumps that moves the valves?)

Cullion
1st June 08, 10:33 AM
What the christing velociraptior shitwad gay jesus is going in this thread, hmmm???

By 'hydrogen' are you talking about the close to zero degree kelvin liquid that would probably crack any of the metal parts it came into contact with and freeze your engine solid, or are you talking about the gas that like, requires orders of magnitude more physical volume per kilojoule than petroleum. Or is this an appalingly mechanically illiterate way of asking 'can you recommend to me a hydrogen fuel-cell car please' or asking 'umm.. can I really run a car on water like that advert on Alex Jones' site said'?

Or are you talking about alcohol compounds that have hydrogen atoms in their molecules ?

Inquiring minds are puzzled by this SFGOON. I always thought you were a reasonably smart no-bullshit kind of guy.

SFGOON
1st June 08, 11:11 AM
Some redneck told me that he was able to improve the gas mileage of his truck by making an electrolosis chamber out of PVC piping and copper/zinc washers. He placed the works in his trunk and ran the collected hydrogen into his intake manifold. The car isn't running exclusively off hydrogen, it's just being used to create more volume when the fuel is combusted.

It seemed feasable to me. The extra electricity generated by the alternator goes to hydrogen production which is used to improve efficency.

Arhetton
1st June 08, 12:21 PM
interestingly enough, the element palladium is able to absorb up to 900 times its own volume of hydrogen gas, and it is a reversible process. Unfortunately its very expensive and rare. I've considered investing in palladium as a commodity because the hydrogen economy has hardly (if it ever will) taken off, but if it did the value would skyrocket in my opinion.

Of course, there could be a potential synthetic solution that mimicked the palladium effect, which would be truly amazing and world changing.

WarPhalange
1st June 08, 01:45 PM
Doesn't ye olde Second Law of Thermodynamics guarantee that you will always bet back less than you put in?

Of course. But I'm a physicist, so I work in frictionless vacuums, where you always get back what you put in.

In reality it's a limit. If the temperature difference between your heat source (gas combustion) and cold source (outside world) is infinite, you'd get back what you put in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_engine#Efficiency

That's why I said at most. Of course that never happens. :smile:

Sirc
1st June 08, 02:32 PM
Does this tuning involve replacing the camshaft? (The spinning bar of lumps that moves the valves?)

Nope. Not at all. All of the tuning will be a software thing on the ECU. You might have to use some sort of device to affect your timing, but other than that you can get your car tuned with OEM parts.


What the christing velociraptior shitwad gay jesus is going in this thread, hmmm???

By 'hydrogen' are you talking about the close to zero degree kelvin liquid that would probably crack any of the metal parts it came into contact with and freeze your engine solid, or are you talking about the gas that like, requires orders of magnitude more physical volume per kilojoule than petroleum. Or is this an appalingly mechanically illiterate way of asking 'can you recommend to me a hydrogen fuel-cell car please' or asking 'umm.. can I really run a car on water like that advert on Alex Jones' site said'?

Or are you talking about alcohol compounds that have hydrogen atoms in their molecules ?

Inquiring minds are puzzled by this SFGOON. I always thought you were a reasonably smart no-bullshit kind of guy.

"Hydrogen Injection" is the new hotness term when describing water injection. Because it sounds more science. Spraying the atomized alcohol/water injection into the intake charge will actually separate the hydrogen from the alcohol/water when the oxygen bonds with the fuel. Kind of neat if you ask me.


Some redneck told me that he was able to improve the gas mileage of his truck by making an electrolosis chamber out of PVC piping and copper/zinc washers. He placed the works in his trunk and ran the collected hydrogen into his intake manifold. The car isn't running exclusively off hydrogen, it's just being used to create more volume when the fuel is combusted.

It seemed feasable to me. The extra electricity generated by the alternator goes to hydrogen production which is used to improve efficency.

He's using one of those hydrogen machines which is truly just a "gas saving" gimmick. It's the equivalent of the ebay intake turbo chargers which is just a electric fan that they put in the intake piping "to get more power." Which they don't.

The power needed from the alternator is actually going to use up even more gas as it'll consume more energy. While a water injection kit will only use a little bit of electricity but net you more gas mileage.

Arhetton
1st June 08, 02:32 PM
of course but thats not the issue with hydrogen, its an issue of storage. Fuel is a just a storage of solar power thats millions of years old.

Sirc
1st June 08, 02:34 PM
Oh and to be more specific.

The car I had with Water Injection had a 1 gallon jug that sat in the engine bay. I used 50/50 water/alcohol. You can use 100% alcohol, but that gets expensive.

For every 2 tanks of gasoline I used, I had to refill the 1 gallon jug.

Sirc
1st June 08, 02:35 PM
of course but thats not the issue with hydrogen, its an issue of storage. Fuel is a just a storage of solar power thats millions of years old.

Issue is storage of hydrogen?

SFGOON
1st June 08, 03:01 PM
So wait, just by modding my chip and slapping a milk jug and pump/toobwerks in my toyota I can increase my mileage? What's the downside?

WarPhalange
1st June 08, 03:03 PM
It doesn't work.

Arhetton
1st June 08, 03:09 PM
not for hydrogen injection, for hydrogen economy. Compressing hydrogen gas actually takes alot of energy for some strange reason.

Sirc
1st June 08, 03:41 PM
So wait, just by modding my chip and slapping a milk jug and pump/toobwerks in my toyota I can increase my mileage? What's the downside?

It costs like $300-400 for a decent water injection kit.

You COULD make your own, but you're going to spend about 200 anyway. You might want to think about finding a tuner shop and seeing if they would put a water injection kit and tune it for you for some deal price. They're usually very amicable about those kinds of things.

There is no downside to water injection. It raises your octane. It cleans out your cylinder walls and piston heads. It increases your gas mileage. It just takes a little bit of investment. And you have to refill your water/alcohol every few hundred miles or so.

WarPhalange
1st June 08, 04:02 PM
How does it work?

SFGOON
1st June 08, 04:14 PM
Volume of liquid water < volume of water vapour.

Sirc
1st June 08, 05:09 PM
How does it work?

There's a tank to hold your water/alcohol.

There's a pump on some kind of switch. Usually a temperature sensor, boost pressure sensor, or RPM switch. When the switch reads the temp, boost, rev, etc. sensors and is told to turn on at say a certain temperature of intake charge, or when the motor shows a certain positive pressure or the motor revs to a certain point, it'll pump the fluid and spray out in specialized nozzles that spray it atomized, usually into a bung that's tapped into the intake manifold or into the intake piping (if it's a turbo car).

The spray cools down the intake charge, and as you know, allows for denser air and thus more horsepower.

As far as I know, in the ignition phase, the spray and the fuel mix, the hydrogen gets separated and turns to water in the exhaust. The mixture raises the octane rating while simultaneously cleans the cylinder walls and piston heads of carbon build up. I don't know the specifics behind that but I know it does it.

With an air/fuel tune that gives you proper mixtures, you'll get a huge increase in gas mileage and some horsepower too.

Sirc
1st June 08, 05:10 PM
A cylinder housing is a sealed vacuum pump. There's only so much that can go into it, which is why tuning is so important.

WarPhalange
1st June 08, 06:41 PM
So none of it has to do with hydrogen? Just cleaning out all the parts and providing a better mixture of fuel to oxygen?

Sirc
1st June 08, 06:58 PM
So none of it has to do with hydrogen? Just cleaning out all the parts and providing a better mixture of fuel to oxygen?

Hydrogen is created all the time by engines. When the fuel and air combust, the excess oxygen and hydrogen bond together and make water. It's like it takes all the water that's in the air already and just compresses it into water droplets and it whatever hydrogen is left just floats away and does whatever it is hydrogen does.

It provides a slower combustion time and thus more octane and thus more power. More power = less exertion on the engine to move you forward which means less need to push the engine which means less fuel usage. But with proper tuning, you get the perfect air to fuel mixture which provides you with the most amount of horsepower and the best fuel mileage.

Without getting too technical, basically stock factory ECU's run on relays that are attached to sensors. If the sensor in whatever airflow sensor the car uses notices there isn't enough air (and these sensors are easily tricked by grime, dirt, etc.) then it sends a signal to the fuel relay to pump more fuel into the motor so it doesn't blow up. It expends a needless amount of fuel, and it does it a lot. If there isn't enough fuel in the lines or there's a pressure drop (which can also easily be tricked), then the relay just tells the motor to leave the intake valves closed a little longer so more fuel can be sent to the cylinders. Essentially the fix is to always just send more fuel into the combustion chamber. Tuning a car with a stand alone ECU will allow for more accurate readings as the sensors are much more accurate and react with software and a much more impressive brain rather than just relays. It'll always keep the air to fuel mixture perfect of 12:1.

Running water injection allows for the variable of water/alcohol vapor which is filled with oxygen and hydrogen (obviously) which allows for a more compressed cylinder full of air. You can use less fuel to do a complete combustion cycle, and won't have to worry about running too lean because of the increased octane.

It's all tied together in a complex intricate web that affects everything.

SFGOON
1st June 08, 07:29 PM
Oh shit - it's a brisance thing. There's my eureka moment for the week.

That makes perfect sense. Why doesn't everyone do this?

WarPhalange
1st June 08, 08:13 PM
Lots of bullshit.

Okay, so it doesn't actually have anything to do with hydrogen then?

You can't "create" hydrogen. You need to get it from somewhere. I'm assuming you mean some sort of chemical reaction in this case, but I don't think that's possible, since you're just oxidizing the fuel.

My point is, this isn't a "hydrogen fuel cell" type of thing, right? Nowhere do you say what this has to do with burning hydrogen.

SFGOON
1st June 08, 08:38 PM
I've seen hydrogen made with some....

Drum roll....


Deutrium that someone let sit there for a while!

BA-DUM-BUM!! tshhh!!

WarPhalange
1st June 08, 10:42 PM
That's like saying you created a peeled banana by taking a regular banana and peeling it.

It's stupid.

You're stupid.

SFGOON
1st June 08, 10:53 PM
And you don't know an isotope joke when you see one!

And I might add, I find that wrestler in your avatar mildly sexually arousing. I wonder why?

WarPhalange
1st June 08, 11:36 PM
It's the sexy makeup he has on, no doubt.

Sirc
2nd June 08, 04:53 AM
Okay, so it doesn't actually have anything to do with hydrogen then?

You can't "create" hydrogen. You need to get it from somewhere. I'm assuming you mean some sort of chemical reaction in this case, but I don't think that's possible, since you're just oxidizing the fuel.

My point is, this isn't a "hydrogen fuel cell" type of thing, right? Nowhere do you say what this has to do with burning hydrogen.

Listen you little shit. Stop being such a fucking faggot. You are like 80 years old or something now waving your cane around like a crazed old man who doesn't understand something.

No, hydrogen injection, like I said earlier, is a retarded gimmick. You aren't doing anything with the hydrogen. With water injection the combustion is burning with the oxygen during the intense explosion in the cylinder chamber. Water is a common result of engine combustion, you'll see it when you're following behind cars sometimes at stop lights (except I know you're a poor faggot and you don't drive/have a car.). The hydrogen escapes through the exhaust valves and rebonds with the ambient oxygen that either wasn't burned or does whatever it does when it's floating around aimlessly.


Oh shit - it's a brisance thing. There's my eureka moment for the week.

That makes perfect sense. Why doesn't everyone do this?

Well, this faggot state of California thinks that having a car that burns cleaner, gives you better gas mileage and overall keeps the level of health in your car on the up and up is bad for environment, despite the fact that tuned race cars burn cleaner than most factory cars. They have to. If they didn't, everyone in the pits would be dead and they'd be slow as fuck.

California sucks and really has no idea what the hell it wants. But, as for other people, I don't know really, they just don't know. I built my own water injection kit piecing it together with parts from ebay and hardware stores. I had to do a lot of research and had to ask a lot of questions before I built one that worked. In the end it would've been cheaper to just buy and install prebuilt. I would imagine because of ignorance and laziness. It's really only going to end up costing you like $500ish to get it done. $3-400 for the water injection kit and around $100-200 for an hour or so of tuning time.

Or you can just put the injection kit on and run it like it is. It'll still be better for your car and you're still going to get better gas mileage. You could just do better.

WarPhalange
2nd June 08, 12:13 PM
Listen you little shit. Stop being such a fucking faggot. You are like 80 years old or something now waving your cane around like a crazed old man who doesn't understand something.

lol? You're not understanding the question = I don't understand the answer?


No, hydrogen injection, like I said earlier, is a retarded gimmick. You aren't doing anything with the hydrogen

Then flat out say so, dumbass. Only now have you actually said anything about it not having anything to do with hydrogen.

Sirc
2nd June 08, 12:50 PM
lol? You're not understanding the question = I don't understand the answer?



Then flat out say so, dumbass. Only now have you actually said anything about it not having anything to do with hydrogen.

I did, you're just acting too dignified to read. Because it's too below you. You've become a worse and worse poster as the days go by. Shit going on at home or something, christ.

WarPhalange
2nd June 08, 12:51 PM
I'm sorry, you're lecturing me on being a bad poster?

Sirc
2nd June 08, 01:41 PM
Careful old man. Don't go too fast you might break your hip. LOOK OUT THERE'S KIDS ON YOUR LAWN!

WarPhalange
2nd June 08, 02:22 PM
SirC, aren't you older than me?

Sirc
2nd June 08, 03:07 PM
SirC, aren't you older than me?

I don't know. Am I?

I'm 22.

Commodore Pipes
2nd June 08, 03:19 PM
"Hydrogen Injection" is the new hotness term when describing water injection. Because it sounds more science. Spraying the atomized alcohol/water injection into the intake charge will actually separate the hydrogen from the alcohol/water when the oxygen bonds with the fuel. Kind of neat if you ask me.

WarPhalange
2nd June 08, 03:47 PM
I don't know. Am I?

I'm 22.

I'll be 22 in August, gramps.

Sirc
2nd June 08, 04:16 PM
I'll be 22 in August, gramps.

Mentally you're already senile.

WarPhalange
2nd June 08, 05:24 PM
Only a little.