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View Full Version : First serious protest of the Olympics? Torch extinguished at least 3 times



Steve
7th April 08, 11:37 PM
I would write something about this but I agree with the protesters so I'll just let the article speak for itself.

Protests cut short Olympic relay


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44547000/jpg/_44547140_apshout_226b.jpgThe Paris leg of the Olympic torch relay has been cut short following anti-Chinese protests along the route.

Security officials extinguished the torch at least three times due to the protests before it was carried on a bus to the relay's end point.

It comes after 37 people were arrested in London as protesters disrupted the torch relay there on Sunday.

The Olympic flame is being carried through 20 countries before arriving for the Beijing Games in August.

Flame protected

The Paris relay started to go wrong almost from the start, despite the presence of 3,000 police along the route, riding motorcycles, jogging or on skates.

A member of the French Green party was restrained by police after attempting to grab the torch from the first of Paris's 80 torch bearers, former world 400 metres hurdles champion Stephane Diagana, Reuters news agency said.

"Nothing's happening as it was meant to," Mr Diagana told French TV.

"It's a shame. It's sad because of what this symbol represents but it can be explained by the context we're aware of."

See the planned Paris route (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7334545.stm#map)

Police were forced at least three times to put out the torch and carried it onto a bus, as police cleared protesters from the route.

On the second occasion, the flame was being relayed out of a Paris traffic tunnel by an athlete in a wheelchair when it was taken onto a bus because protesters booed and began chanting "Tibet", the Associated Press news agency reported.

The flame itself has been kept alight the whole time in a safety lantern.

Later, Paris Mayor Bertrand Delanoe cancelled a ceremony to welcome the torch relay after Green party activists hung a Tibetan flag and a black banner depicting the Olympic rings as handcuffs from the Hotel de Ville (city hall).

Activists have hung Tibetan flags or the black banners from several other Paris landmarks including the Eiffel Tower and Notre Dame cathedral.

Several hundred protesters have been involved in the demonstrations, near the Eiffel Tower and along the torch's zig-zag route through Paris to a stadium in the south of the city.

Finally, after several delays, security officials decided to put the torch on a bus to take it to Stade Charlety, where it arrived 30 minutes late at 1530 GMT.

Pro-Tibet activists and Chinese supporters scuffled outside the stadium before police intervened.

Olympic appeal

China condemned what it called an "attempt to sabotage and destroy" the torch relay.

"The Olympic flame belongs to the people around the world," said Wang Hui, a spokesman for the Beijing Olympic organising committee.

"So the behaviour of a few separatists would not gain sympathy from people and will cause strong criticism and is doomed to fail."

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44545000/jpg/_44545469_pa226x282bike.jpgThe Paris relay was meant to be a colourful advertisement for the Beijing Games, instead it has turned into a grotesque embarrassment, says the BBC's Hugh Schofield in Paris.

US Democratic Party presidential candidate Hillary Clinton called on President George W Bush to boycott the opening ceremony of the Olympics unless China improved its human rights record.

Speaking in Beijing earlier on Monday, IOC President Jacques Rogge said he was concerned over both the recent unrest in Tibet and the torch protests.

"The International Olympic Committee has expressed its serious concern and calls for a rapid peaceful resolution in Tibet," Mr Rogge said.

He criticised the attempts to disrupt the torch relay, saying violent protests, "for whatever reason," are "not compatible with the values of the torch relay or the Olympic Games".

London's relay saw protesters trying to douse and even snatch the Olympic flame as athletes and celebrities carried it through the city.

The demonstrations have been sparked by China's security crackdown in Tibet following a series of protests against Chinese rule which swept the region last month.

Tibetan exile groups say Chinese security forces killed dozens of protesters. Beijing says about 19 people were killed in rioting.

The torch was lit in Olympia, Greece, on 24 March and is being relayed through 20 countries before being carried into the opening ceremony at the Beijing Games on 8 August.

-------------------------------

Link. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7334545.stm)

WarPhalange
8th April 08, 12:34 AM
Yeah, they should have thought about that before bombing Pearl Harbor.

amirite?

Harpy
8th April 08, 12:46 AM
ROAR people!!! Its been so good (and funny) to see the protests and those who criticise the means need to look at China first. Also I'm sure the Chinese government is seething and wishing it ruled the world so it could throw these people with opinions into some dungeon.

I wonder when someone is going to put a bomb on one of those Olympic torch bearing buses.

Oh and China can suck ass.

Arhetton
8th April 08, 12:48 AM
want to see the video that CCTV (chinas internal news) ran about the riots?

U8yGahPGQls

all about the damage to chinese people, businesses, the local chinese community - its very very slick.

Heres the torch protest segment

srXFOBPUvM8

Chinese official statements always seem so ridiculous - they sound like amateur PR graduates - always downplaying chinas involvement with anything, pure denial, never admitting any fault or understanding - its disgusting.

Lol at the chinese statement calling the protestors 'seperatists'.

http://ffmedia.ign.com/starwars/image/article/612/612055/istar-warsi-lamest-characters-20050512071231722.jpg

elipson
8th April 08, 06:14 AM
Wow. This is getting serious.

The olympics might end up being a terrible decision by the chinese government.

Teh El Macho
8th April 08, 10:37 AM
Fuck NBC and the business sponsors for still going through with these Olympics. They deride the protesters saying "oh, this is such a shame, the Olympics mean for peace and openness and this and that, and more blah blah." They should have fucking thought about it before letting Beijing getting it. There is no peace nor openness in China.

These Olympics are a shameless approval of China's status quo all for the fucking mighty dollar.

This is Berlin 1936 Part Deux, plain and simple.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o197/Luis_Espinal/blogging%20content/beijing%202008/NaziOL1936-1.jpg




Also, fuck China and its censorship. And fuck these Olympics. I hope some of the players get the balls to do what is right and when receiving their medals they walk to the podium with a Tibetan flag, just as Tommie Smith and John Carlos did the 'Power To The People' salute in Mexico, 1968.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o197/Luis_Espinal/blogging%20content/beijing%202008/Carlos-Smith.jpg

Really, fuck these olympics. Shame, shame, fucking shame on it.



--- edit ---

Avery Brundage approves of these Olympics.

Truculent Sheep
8th April 08, 01:29 PM
First serious protest of the Olympics? Torch extinguished at least 3 times

Err, I think you missed the epic lulz in London the day before:

AjtRFyX1bmA
iW3OHns8Q
SxNs2EJNW

Note the blue tracksuit-clad goons China sent over...

Sun Wukong
8th April 08, 01:48 PM
Chinese official statements always seem so ridiculous - they sound like amateur PR graduates - always downplaying chinas involvement with anything, pure denial, never admitting any fault or understanding - its disgusting.

Two things:

1. There is no freedom of the press in China. How are you surprised by this?

2. Those peaceful protestors beat innocent people to death in the street for being Han chinese and robbed two banks after setting fires that killed entire families. You expected maybe the government edited news stations to put a cherry on top, sprinkle some walnuts and call it a sundae?



Lol at the chinese statement calling the protestors 'seperatists'.
What part of the words "FREE TIBET" do you not understand? They ARE seperatists.

HappyOldGuy
8th April 08, 02:29 PM
What part of the words "FREE TIBET" do you not understand? They ARE seperatists.

Autonomy <> independence. The tibetans are mostly protesting against the clear racist policies against them by the chinese government and for the chinese government to stop interfering in their religion.

krazy kaju
8th April 08, 02:46 PM
While I am an anti-communist, I don't understand the urge to completely shut out China.

Look at North Korea, and compare them to China and Vietnam. We pursue sanctions and similar measures to completely shut out the DPRK, while we trade (somewhat) freely with China and Vietnam. China and Vietnam, in turn, have become more democratic and the people are better off and seeing the good deeds of capitalism.

Stopping the Olympics from occurring in China won't do anything but make the Chinese poorer and isolate them more. What we need to do is have a neutral and open foreign policy relationship with them, promoting free trade and exchange of ideas and goods.


What part of the words "FREE TIBET" do you not understand? They ARE seperatists.

I don't think all the protestors are solely protesting on the behalf of Tibet.

Sun Wukong
8th April 08, 02:55 PM
There is no peace nor openness in China.

Blatantly absurd statement. I lived in China for nearly 7 months, met my wife's entire family and was more accepted by them than my wife was by my own red neck clan of asshole-in-laws. I've never been treated so kindly or well by a group of people in my life who total strangers to me. I'm a different race, I'm from a different background, my chinese sucks and I made a total fucking tool of myself on several occassions and I was treated with nothing but dignity and kindness for my entire fucking stay. Better than I have been treated by own family at any point in my god damn life.

I got really ill about a year ago. Thought I was going to fucking die for two months; extremely ominous symptoms. I had tests run on me for every god damn thing under the sun from AIDS to lymphatic cancer. My father in law called every night to check on me from the point I got sick to the time I got better. You know how many times my own family called? They didn't.

I had to go all the way to the other side of the planet to find a family that actually really gave a crap.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. They don't have an especially benevolent or malevolent government: they have a largely apathetic government whose federal government has undergone enormous reforms in the last 30 years.



These Olympics are a shameless approval of China's status quo all for the fucking mighty dollar.

Are you fucking kidding me? There are things far more important than monetary gain going on here. China is an extremely powerful nation coming out of the most bloody century that any country has seen in modern history. WWII was like Weekend at Bernie's compared to what happened the last century in China.

This is about encouraging one of the three most powerful countries in the world to be part of the international community by taking part in a peaceful exchange of ideas and culture. Have you any fucking idea how far they've come in the last 35 years from the days of Mao's brain dead troupe of flying monkeys?

There are plenty of things I don't like about the government in china, but they are far from a nation of petty commie thugs and miscreants that they are painted as by ignorant media demagogues.

China doesn't bow to pressure. When Nixon was president Kissenger very wisely approached china with a message of non-aggression and peace. China then began slowly relaxing the stranglehold on society as they began opening their borders to foreign cultures that not even a decade previously had been villified as agencies of evil by Mao's propaganda machine.

By offering an olive branch to China, Nixon put himself in position to end the Vietnam war and insure mutual co-operation with a country that would have been happy to follow Stalin's lead into mutually assured destruction.



This is Berlin 1936 Part Deux, plain and simple.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o197/Luis_Espinal/blogging%20content/beijing%202008/NaziOL1936-1.jpg



Der Nazi-Partei? What a bunch of bullshit. Who the fuck are they about to invade? Uranus? It's a purely ignorant comparison, but I expect this kind of knee-jerk myopic ignorant anti-communist crap. China's a communist country in name only.



Also, fuck China and its censorship.

A valid point, finally at least one legitimate grievance to air.



I hope some of the players get the balls to do what is right and when receiving their medals they walk to the podium with a Tibetan flag, just as Tommie Smith and John Carlos did the 'Power To The People' salute in Mexico, 1968.

Really, fuck these olympics. Shame, shame, fucking shame on it.


Tibet is one of the most neglected parts of China. It's extremely under-developed and the quality of life for its people is awful.

News Flash: CHINA IS HORRIBLY UNDERDEVELOPED ALMOST UNIFORMLY.

Tibet needs more money for social care, no more than Beijing does in it's outer ring. Tibet is comparable to Mao's home province of Hunan. The people suffer due to poverty and an almost completely inept local government almost uniformly in China. Fixes to problems like China has will not be provided overnight.

Truculent Sheep
8th April 08, 03:13 PM
Ah, the apologist is in the house, people!

Btw, who wants to post a comment on pro-Chinese Youtube videos, asking if anyone knows what 'cognitive dissonance' is?

Teh El Macho
8th April 08, 03:34 PM
Censorship in China is an illusion, it does not exist at all and the fact Tibetans are becoming a minority in their own country (yes, THEIR country) is also an illusion. It is so bad to be a separatist, those misguided Tibetans (not to mention the Uyghurs and oh my, the Taiwanese.) Them separatists, the lot of them. Chinese government officials are right, it's all the Dalai Lama's fault, that twisted agent of evil.

And a white guy's personal/family experiences in China reflect the experiences of living in China as a minority much better than the average Tibetan's.

Sorry that I was so misguided.


--- edit ---

I will say however that Tibetans performing racially-motivated attacks on Han and Huis cannot be condoned at all. This is not however to say that the entire situation in Tibet is reducible to mindless Tibetan xenophobia.

There is a racial component in this in which a native population is fighting back what it sees as the 'Hanification' of their country. Anyone who wants to think otherwise is fooling/fucking himself.

Teh El Macho
8th April 08, 03:49 PM
Der Nazi-Partei? What a bunch of bullshit. Who the fuck are they about to invade? Uranus? It's a purely ignorant comparison, but I expect this kind of knee-jerk myopic ignorant anti-communist crap. China's a communist country in name only.


Taiwan? Tibet was already done for. Serious response, the comparison is not about China looking for 'breathing room' as Nazi Germany did but about

1. an undemocratic government implementing policies that, intended or not, happen to become racial policies

2. the olympics being hosted by a nation with a horrendous human right track record

You not observing what the comparison is about, dismissing it as purely myopic anti-comunism, that's myopic. Pot tells kettle brother, pot tells kettle.

Teh El Macho
8th April 08, 04:48 PM
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article3671368.ece


China’s blue-clad flame attendants, whose aggressive methods of safeguarding the Olympic torch have provoked international outcry, are paramilitary police from a force spun off from the country’s army.

The squad of 30 young men from the police academy that turns out the cream of the paramilitary security force has the job at home of ensuring riot control, domestic stability and the protection of diplomats.

Questions are now being asked as to who authorised their presence as the torch was carried through London. The Conservatives demanded clarification from the Government last night.

The guards’ task for the torch relay is to ensure the flame is never extinguished – although it was put out three times in Paris – and now increasingly to prevent protesters demonstrating against Chinese rule in Tibet from interfering with it.

But the aggression with which the guards have been pursuing their brief has provoked anger, not least in London where they were seen wrestling protesters to the ground and were described as “thugs” by Lord Coe.

The Olympic medallist and organiser of the 2012 Games was overheard saying that the officials had pushed him around as the torch made its way through the capital on Sunday. He added that other countries on the route should “get rid of those guys”.

“They tried to punch me out of the way three times. They are horrible. They did not speak English . . . I think they were thugs.”

His comments came after Konnie Huq, the former Blue Peter presenter, who was one of the torchbearers on Sunday, described how she had seen the officials in “skirmishes” with the police.

Ms Huq, who was carrying the torch when a pro-Tibet activist tried to snatch the flame, said of the guards: “They were very robotic, full-on . . . They were barking orders like ‘run’ and ‘stop’ and I was like, ‘Who are these people?’.”

Who are these motherfuckers from commanding the torch-bearers that way anyways? There fuckers entered on visitor's visas and now they do this? Fuck'em, fuck'em with a stick.

If they show up in San Francisco, I hope they get received with knuckle dusters now that we know who they are.

People argue that the Olypics should be free of politics, but we all know that this particular games are a political instrument to diverge the attention away from the less than cozy realities the Chinese government is oh-so desperatedly trying to deny. Fuck'em. And fuck these Olympics.

Truculent Sheep
8th April 08, 04:59 PM
I will say however that Tibetans performing racially-motivated attacks on Han and Huis cannot be condoned at all. This is not however to say that the entire situation in Tibet is reducible to mindless Tibetan xenophobia.

But the occasional excesses of the Tibetans WILL be used as a means of distracting people from the nigh-on 50 years of oppression from Beijing. Indeed, the Chinese government is already doing so.

Nonetheless, it is important to stress who the majority of the victims are in this case, otherwise the spin operation Beijing is trying to pull off will succeed.

[EDIT!!!]


Who are these motherfuckers from commanding the torch-bearers that way anyways? There fuckers entered on visitor's visas and now they do this? Fuck'em, fuck'em with a stick.

It turns out they're actually paramilitary police recurited from the PLA:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3671368.ece

The fact that these thugs are allowed to rough people up on UK and French soil is a fucking scandal.

krazy kaju
8th April 08, 06:01 PM
Macho, how will shutting China off from the rest of the world improve the living standards of those living there?

How will it help the rest of the world?

If we close of China, we'll be simply prodding them towards a more agressive and nationalistic domestic and foreign policy, which is no good for anyone. Instead, let's embrace free trade and exchange of ideas. We've already begun changing them from the inside-out, don't stop it now.

Harpy
8th April 08, 06:11 PM
Sun Wukong - WTF man? We're talking about the Chinese government here, not the family you stayed with (or the Chinese people as a whole).

Its people like you who muddy the issue and go off on a tangent.

Does China think that decades of oppression and human rights abuse in Tibet can be glossed over? Is it a surprise that the Tibetans are up in arms/rioting? This is their only fucking chance to be heard on such a global scale!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Teh El Macho
8th April 08, 06:22 PM
Macho, how will shutting China off from the rest of the world improve the living standards of those living there?

How will it help the rest of the world?

If we close of China, we'll be simply prodding them towards a more agressive and nationalistic domestic and foreign policy, which is no good for anyone. Instead, let's embrace free trade and exchange of ideas. We've already begun changing them from the inside-out, don't stop it now.

Condemning the 2008 Olympics being hosted in Beijing is not shutting down China. They have plenty of good shit in terms of trade going on already. How much more good faith and free trade does the Chinese govmnt' needs? Where does one stops turning a blind eye in the name of openenness in the quasi-hope that the Chinese government will someday in the remote future will stop being so fucked up to his people in general and the Tibetans in particular?

Jesus Christ titties, the olympic athletes have been given an advisory that their hotel rooms will be bugged, Christians cannot freely exercise their faith unless they belong to one of the 'official' churches, their PR machines are in full crank with their 'demonic Dalai Lama' antics, everyday the Tibetans and Uyghurs are methodically being turned into a minority in their own countries and let's not forget that this government would have obliterated Taiwan and its people (who are a de-facto independent nation) if it weren't because of the military repercusions (and they are one pussy-hair away from saying 'fuck this, let's do it.'

How much more good faith and economic trade is the world willing to give these ruling motherfuckers?

Teh El Macho
8th April 08, 06:38 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/04/08/bush.olympics/index.html

Bush weighs skipping Olympics opening

Story Highlights
NEW: Speaker Pelosi comments on Olympic torch run through San Francisco

White House says Bush may skip ceremonies to protest crackdown on Tibet

German, French leaders have suggested that they may skip opening

Bush could still visit Olympic sporting events

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The White House left the door open Tuesday to President Bush skipping the opening ceremonies of the Beijing Olympics to protest China's human rights record and its crackdown in Tibet.


The White House opened the door to Bush not attending the Olympic opening ceremonies this summer.

White House spokeswoman Dana Perino, however, suggested that the president might attend some of the athletic events at the Olympic Games in August if he skipped the opening.

The president has said since last year that he plans to attend the Olympics, but he has never been specific about his visit. Bush has stressed he's a sports fan who wants to support U.S. athletes at the games.

Asked whether Bush will attend the opening ceremonies, typically a major showcase for the host country, Perino would not be definitive. "We haven't provided any schedules on the president's trip," she said.

Pressed on whether Bush's decision to attend the Olympics is "irreversible" or could be affected by developments, Perino hedged.

"Any time the president -- the president can always make a change," she said. "But the president has been clear that this is a sporting event for the athletes and that pressuring China before, during and after the Olympics is the best way for us to try to help people across the board in China, not just Tibetans."

^_^

krazy kaju
8th April 08, 06:48 PM
Condemning the 2008 Olympics being hosted in Beijing is not shutting down China. They have plenty of good shit in terms of trade going on already. How much more good faith and free trade does the Chinese govmnt' needs? Where does one stops turning a blind eye in the name of openenness in the quasi-hope that the Chinese government will someday in the remote future will stop being so fucked up to his people in general and the Tibetans in particular?

Jesus Christ titties, the olympic athletes have been given an advisory that their hotel rooms will be bugged, Christians cannot freely exercise their faith unless they belong to one of the 'official' churches, their PR machines are in full crank with their 'demonic Dalai Lama' antics, everyday the Tibetans and Uyghurs are methodically being turned into a minority in their own countries and let's not forget that this government would have obliterated Taiwan and its people (who are a de-facto independent nation) if it weren't because of the military repercusions (and they are one pussy-hair away from saying 'fuck this, let's do it.'

How much more good faith and economic trade is the world willing to give these ruling motherfuckers?

Allowing more free and open trade will open up China's people, society, and government more to the idea of democracy and freedom.

A dictatorship simply cannot exist side-by-side with a free market.

There are really two ways you can go about this:

Shutting them completely off and hope the government crumbles, like we did with the USSR after spending trillions of dollars and decades undermining them.
Promote free trade and allow more freedom-oriented ideas to spread among the people in the society, like what happened with Chile and what is beginning to happen with China and Vietnam now.


The second option is much cheaper in lives and money.

Freer economy = freer people = freer exchange of ideas = freer government.

Even if you look at how the USSR and other Eastern Block nations fell you can see a similar trend. Western ideas perpetuated (or were already in) society, so the governments of Eastern Europe eventually were forced to concede to small reforms (in the 80s). Small reforms led to even larger ones, until eventually the socialist gov'ts of Europe simply fell into disarray.

I know you don't want to "endorse" the Chinese government's actions by having the Olympics there. But this will simply be a window for the Chinese people to see how well people from democratic nations are doing. With the Olympians, there will come entourages and businessmen catering to their needs.

Essentially, you're opening up Chinese society a little bit more.

Harpy
8th April 08, 07:04 PM
FREE TIBET

Krazy Kaju - you twerp. Where the hell did you get the idea that China will be 'shut off from the rest of the world'? By allowing a big fucking bully to continue as they please, we're in fact shutting down the rest of the world's minds. China needs to correct its actions against Tibet, make an apology (via their lovely media outlets) and move on. Its not going to affect the living conditions of their own people, in fact it might fucking IMPROVE THEM.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
8th April 08, 09:37 PM
While I am an anti-communist, I don't understand the urge to completely shut out China.

Look at North Korea, and compare them to China and Vietnam. We pursue sanctions and similar measures to completely shut out the DPRK, while we trade (somewhat) freely with China and Vietnam. China and Vietnam, in turn, have become more democratic and the people are better off and seeing the good deeds of capitalism.

Stopping the Olympics from occurring in China won't do anything but make the Chinese poorer and isolate them more. What we need to do is have a neutral and open foreign policy relationship with them, promoting free trade and exchange of ideas and goods.

Yeah, because it's not like DPRK is a different country than China or Vietnam, subject to the rule of different leaders with more isolationist, anti-capilalist policies. No, you sir have discovered exactly why North Korea is still Communist. Bravo!

WarPhalange
8th April 08, 09:39 PM
MJS, you above all others should know that all Chinese people look alike, even if they are Vietnamese or Japanese.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
8th April 08, 09:41 PM
Truly, Krazy Kaju's insight into economics, foreign policy, and rhetoric are unsurpassed among his entire English Language class.

Arhetton
8th April 08, 10:08 PM
just a technicality:

I didn't say I was surprised, I said I was disgusted.

Also - my knowledge of the tibetan issue is that peaceful protesters for years have been imprisoned and tortured, and the violent outbreaks now are because the populace has become increasingly disenfranchised with the non-violent method and its results.

I was laughing at the use of the word seperatist because the major protest is about chinas human rights record - that official statement managed to completely gloss over that issue by pointing the finger back at the protestors instead.

Its very clever, but its funny.

HappyOldGuy
9th April 08, 10:56 AM
San Francisco is gonna be amusing. Our tibetan expats were packing BART this morning waving tibetan flags.

kismasher
9th April 08, 11:46 AM
San Francisco is gonna be amusing. Our tibetan expats were packing BART this morning waving tibetan flags.

i heard on ESPN radio that Hershel Walker is carrying one of the San Francisco legs.

how many Tibetan protestors does it take to get the torch from Hershel?

i'll set the over/under at 8.

paypal only plz.

Zendetta
9th April 08, 11:48 AM
People's Republic of Berkeley's Finest Troublemakers versus Three Rows of SFPD blocking for Hershel Walker. This should get exciting.

SpringHeeledJack
9th April 08, 12:34 PM
i heard on ESPN radio that Hershel Walker is carrying one of the San Francisco legs.

how many Tibetan protestors does it take to get the torch from Hershel?

i'll set the over/under at 8.

paypal only plz.I heard that too. He said he's been training mixed martial arts and hopes somebody tries to do something to the torch while he has it because he needs some practice.

kismasher
9th April 08, 12:42 PM
I heard that too. He said he's been training mixed martial arts and hopes somebody tries to do something to the torch while he has it because he needs some practice.

if there is a god this will happen and be taped by a dozen news camera. not that i don't support the protestors, but the prospect of Herschel supplexing 150 lb protestors right and left is too awesome.

actually, apparently it turned violent. here's the footage:

0Hnov3H3Frg

Zendetta
9th April 08, 01:57 PM
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/24024416/


As runners carry the torch on its six-mile route, they will compete not only with people protesting China’s grip on Tibet and its support for the governments of Myanmar and Sudan, but also with more obscure activists. They include nudists calling for a return to the way the ancient Greek games were played.

Good ol' SF.

Kein Haar
9th April 08, 02:23 PM
if there is a god this will happen and be taped by a dozen news camera. not that i don't support the protestors, but the prospect of Herschel supplexing 150 lb protestors right and left is too awesome.

actually, apparently it turned violent. here's the footage:

0Hnov3H3Frg

At :23 seconds all I could think about was that ham.

Truculent Sheep
9th April 08, 02:56 PM
As ever, the British 'Left' is falling in line behind the dictatorship:

http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/2008/04/09/communist_party_of_britain_we_declare_solidarity_w ith_peoples_struggle_against_paper_tiger_of_dalai_ lama_clique.php

Shawarma
9th April 08, 03:15 PM
On a happier note: Fedor Emilianenko carried the olympic torch in Moscow. Go Fedor!

Teh El Macho
9th April 08, 03:15 PM
Somebody gotta be the Chinese Govt' bitch. I guess they are it :P

HappyOldGuy
9th April 08, 03:18 PM
As ever, the British 'Left' is falling in line behind the dictatorship:

http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/2008/04/09/communist_party_of_britain_we_declare_solidarity_w ith_peoples_struggle_against_paper_tiger_of_dalai_ lama_clique.php

So a <1000 member marxist leninist party = the british left?

I mean that would be cool, but I've got a sneaking suspicion that britain has a broder left than that.



Edit: Updates from SF. The chinese embassy bussed in supporters and there have been some incidents between the groups. No mentions of cool kung fu.

The torch run has been shortened.

Teh El Macho
9th April 08, 03:27 PM
The more incidents the better. Doesn't matter how many supporters the Chinese embassy ends up bussing. It's like trying to contain a tide by throwing farts at it.

If the Chinese Govt though there would be no incidents, or that they could control what happens outside their borders, in particular Europe and the US, they are more fucking stupid and inept than anticipated.

Truculent Sheep
9th April 08, 03:35 PM
So a <1000 member marxist leninist party = the british left?

I mean that would be cool, but I've got a sneaking suspicion that britain has a broder left than that.

If you could have been bothered to read the last three paragraphs...


The Communist Party of Britain is a tiny and discredited organisation with about 1,000 members, which almost nobody votes for.

Yet it runs the Morning Star, which carries articles by union leaders and Labour MPs, including the likes of Jon Cruddas. Its officers include Kate "More Nukes for Iran" Hudson of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament and Andrew "Solidarity with North Korea" Murray of the Stop the War Coalition.

And this is what they believe.

But you didn't - idiot. And The Morning Star is read by just about everyone on the traditional and maintream left that isn't a Blairite or Brownite.

HappyOldGuy
9th April 08, 03:38 PM
If you could have been bothered to read the last three paragraphs...


The Communist Party of Britain is a tiny and discredited organisation with about 1,000 members, which almost nobody votes for.

Yet it runs the Morning Star, which carries articles by union leaders and Labour MPs, including the likes of Jon Cruddas. Its officers include Kate "More Nukes for Iran" Hudson of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament and Andrew "Solidarity with North Korea" Murray of the Stop the War Coalition.

And this is what they believe.

But you didn't - idiot. And The Morning Star is read by just about everyone on the traditional and maintream left that isn't a Blairite or Brownite.

I read the wall street journal all the time. You can safely assume that it's editorial page doesn't represent my views.

Truculent Sheep
9th April 08, 03:42 PM
I read the wall street journal all the time. You can safely assume that it's editorial page doesn't represent my views.

But the Morning Star is a politically-driven publication aimed, and read by, politically-driven people who by definition agree with it. Keep dazzling me with your ignorance, please.

HappyOldGuy
9th April 08, 03:49 PM
But the Morning Star is a politically-driven publication aimed, and read by, politically-driven people who by definition agree with it. Keep dazzling me with your ignorance, please.
By who's fucking retarded definition? Are you seriously claiming that reading a paper=agreeing with everything it says on its editorial page?

In more SF news. The torch runner immediately ran into a warehouse on pier 48 after theylit the torch. Speculation is that they are planning to use a boat to get the torch past the worst crowds at the ferrry building.

God I wish I still worked downtown.

Truculent Sheep
9th April 08, 03:52 PM
By who's fucking retarded definition? Are you seriously claiming that reading a paper=agreeing with everything it says on its editorial page?

Yes, but unlike you, I actually know people who read the paper, its circumstances and generally a damn sight more than you, dipshit.

HappyOldGuy
9th April 08, 04:01 PM
Yes, but unlike you, I actually know people who read the paper, its circumstances and generally a damn sight more than you, dipshit.

Assumption in this case is only making an ass out of you little girl. Call it the legacy of a misspent youth.


SF Update: it wasn't a boat. They moved the torch by motorcade to an entirely different route. and the demonstraters are pissed.

Truculent Sheep
9th April 08, 04:03 PM
Assumption in this case is only making an ass out of you little girl. Call it the legacy of a misspent youth.

You're the arsehole who's making idiotic assumptions. Did the gender re-assignment damage your brains?

HappyOldGuy
9th April 08, 04:30 PM
You're the arsehole who's making idiotic assumptions. Did the gender re-assignment damage your brains?

You can judge the quality for yourself while I'm fucking you.

And it looks like we aren't gonna get any massive kung fu brawls due the the cops changing the route and sneaking it through town away from the crowds. I do feel sorry for the poor folks who just wanted to show their kids the torch though.

Truculent Sheep
9th April 08, 04:31 PM
You can judge the quality for yourself while I'm fucking you.


You need a cock for that, my friend. Shame you haven't got one.

HappyOldGuy
9th April 08, 04:37 PM
You need a cock for that, my friend. Shame you haven't got one.
Let's see, you claim that a statement made by a tiny splinter party on their website=lockstep maoist solidarity by the british left. Your evidence is that they run a paper (where the statement did not appear) where a couple of slightly less fringy lefties who are not part of the pary occasionally write articles, which leads other people who are not part of the party to occasionally read the paper. And since those people are mostly lefties, then obviously the web statement speaks for the entire british left.

So the folks attacking the torchrunners would be good tories or liberals then?

I think we've identified the vagina, but I'm gonna pass on the fucking till you scrub some of the sand out.

oh, btw http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=14452 = flawless victory, get to scrubbing

bob
9th April 08, 04:40 PM
In a somewhat surprising development the new Australian PM (a fluent Mandarin speaker and former China diplomat, generally reckoned to be very pro-China), on his first overseas trip has mildly ripped into the PRC in a speech to a bunch of students in Beijing. http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=444583

bob
9th April 08, 04:42 PM
Pretty ballsy move actually, considering how much we rely on China for our economic growth (like far more than any other country). Also rather clever in that he's aimed the speech directly at the educated youth of China.

bob
9th April 08, 04:42 PM
Carry on with your scheduled cock/pussy jokes now boys.

Truculent Sheep
9th April 08, 04:48 PM
Let's see, you claim that a statement made by a tiny splinter party on their website=lockstep maoist solidarity by the british left. Your evidence is that they run a paper (where the statement did not appear) where a couple of slightly less fringy lefties who are not part of the pary occasionally write articles, which leads other people who are not part of the party to occasionally read the paper. And since those people are mostly lefties, then obviously the web statement speaks for the entire british left.

Not the entire UK left - the blog I got the link from is one of the more sensible voices there - but rather, a large and influential chunk of it, as I said. Keep blustering - it only emphasises your ignorance.


Carry on with your scheduled cock/pussy jokes now boys.

MINGE!!!

HappyOldGuy
9th April 08, 05:02 PM
but rather, a large and influential chunk of it, as I said.

Strange, none of those words appear in what you actually said.


As ever, the British 'Left' is falling in line behind the dictatorship:

Keep scrubbing, the lube is warm.

Truculent Sheep
9th April 08, 05:09 PM
Strange, none of those words appear in what you actually said.

Yes I did:


And The Morning Star is read by just about everyone on the traditional and maintream left that isn't a Blairite or Brownite.

But if you'd read the link correctly in the first place, you'd have got the proper context. But the real issue here is that you've failed to READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE and got the wrong idea as a result. The ensuing bullshit is all your doing, but I do like baiting idiots.


Keep scrubbing, the lube is warm.

Are you hoping for a sympathy fuck?

HappyOldGuy
9th April 08, 05:14 PM
Just about everybody other than the readers of the other main left paper in the UK (the socialist worker), you mean?

Meh, you aren't even trying, your foreplay sucks.

Truculent Sheep
9th April 08, 05:17 PM
Just about everybody other than the readers of the other main left paper in the UK (the socialist worker), you mean?

Socialist Worker is an echo chamber for SWP tosspots. There are of course people on the UK left who are sensible - Harry's Place being a good example - but weight of numbers is behind the Nu Lab/Old Lab crowd. They can be summed up as either subscribing to The New Statesman or The Morning Star 4 life.

But the real mainstream lefty press is represented by The Independent and The Guardian. The Mirror is just marking time until it disappears up its own fundament.


Meh, you aren't even trying, your foreplay sucks.

I bet you say that to all the women you've drugged.

Steve
9th April 08, 07:15 PM
Today, in San Francisco...

Olympic Torch Relay Chaotic in San Francisco


The Olympic torch relay got off to a chaotic start in San Francisco on Wednesday, when the torchbearer was routed away from thousands who turned out to cheer and protest the flame's journey to Beijing.

The flame disappeared from view for about 30 minutes when the first torchbearer ran into a warehouse near the waterfront after the opening ceremony. It reappeared about a mile from its expected location.

Before the opening ceremony, San Francisco police had announced the relay's six-mile route would be cut in half. They did not offer an immediate explanation, but city officials had warned they might shorten the route for security reasons.

Security Tight

Crowds began to gather early in the day at San Francisco's McCovey Cove, where the Olympic torch was scheduled to make its North American debut.

The torch's circuitous travel around the globe has already has been marked by demonstrations against China's policies toward Tibet and Sudan, and more demonstrations are expected worldwide before it reaches the Summer Games.

San Francisco officials said police officers were backed up by other Bay Area police departments, the California Highway Patrol and the FBI in an effort to keep Olympic runners and bystanders safe, while protecting the protesters' right to free speech.

Nearly 80 torchbearers had prepared to carry the Olympic flame along the route past hordes of protesters and counterprotesters.

Ultramarathon runner Dean Karnazes, who was to be one of the torch runners, said the city had taken the proper precautions to protect runners.

Karnazes said city officials reassured participants that law enforcement would work with the State Department and international authorities to avoid a repeat of the chaotic demonstrations in Paris and London. He said the actual relay route would be kept secret as long as possible.

Protesters, Supporters Turn Out

Violent protests in Paris and London prompted several San Francisco torchbearers to drop out.

San Francisco is the only stop for the torch in North America. The city was chosen to host the relay, in part, because of its large Chinese-American population.

Many San Francisco residents have asked for calm and expressed their pride that China was chosen to host the Olympics.

Chinese officials have dismissed previous demonstrations as the actions of a few who are trying to hijack a historical event for their own purposes.

The International Olympic Committee is considering whether to cancel the rest of the torch's world tour.

--------------

Link. (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89498110)

Sun Wukong
9th April 08, 09:27 PM
You need a cock for that, my friend. Shame you haven't got one.

2/10, you might as well have called him a doo-doo head. Have you ever thought about actually putting an effort into coming up with insults? You're bad at them.

WarPhalange
9th April 08, 11:45 PM
The solution? Get faster runners.

Srsly.

http://lioninoil.blogspot.com/2008/04/ari-fleischer-solves-olympic-torch.html

socratic
10th April 08, 04:16 AM
Yeah, yeah, fuck China for being a Communist totalitarian state, we all know that. No one's debating human rights abuses have occured and probably will continue to occur there, or in its little conquered territories.

Fuck the protestors for trying to ruin the fucking Olympics.


FREE TIBET

Krazy Kaju - you twerp. Where the hell did you get the idea that China will be 'shut off from the rest of the world'? By allowing a big fucking bully to continue as they please, we're in fact shutting down the rest of the world's minds. China needs to correct its actions against Tibet, make an apology (via their lovely media outlets) and move on. Its not going to affect the living conditions of their own people, in fact it might fucking IMPROVE THEM.
So we invade them, right Lilly? Since doing anything otherwise is justifying their behaviour? That'll make the totalitarians stop being totalitarians, won't it? Let's make China do what we want through force of arms. Diplomacy and politics aren't going to work at all, so let's just take on China, China who keeps the Aussie dollar up, because clearly their human rights abuses have gone too far, whereas the rest of the world can keep doing what they're doing. Because by holding a competition for sport there, we're telling them we agree with what they're doing and have done. Just like we agreed with the bloody history of Germany by having multiple Olympics there. And just like we agreed with the bloody history of Japan by holding olympics there. And just like we agreed with the bloody history of America by holding olympics there. Just like we agreed with everything that's wrong with the world by competing in sport.

Look, I agree with (what I understand to be) the protestor's views, and what they ultimately want to achieve. Yes, the Tibet issue is a damn crying shame, and it isn't the first time the violent Communist nation that is China has done bad things to innocent people. What I disagree with is that the olympics is the proper venue to bear these thoughts, and that taking it out on the ceremonies and those involved will do anything other than ruin said ceremonies. You're ruining the Olympics and it isn't going to anything, because they're a communist country with a PR machine that'll make the protestors look insane and the Communists justified. The protestors are just giving the wrong people more fodder to 'prove' the world fears and hates them, and meanwhile you're fucking everything up for people like me who've only been alive for a handful of Olympics and would like to see some fucking sport, mkay?

Teh El Macho
10th April 08, 07:59 AM
What you are missing is that protestors have never had this chance to voice their opposition. Any venue is a legit, proper venue to denounce cruelty. There is no venue (other than a funeral maybe) that is off-limit to denounce cruelty and injustice. This is the perfect venue, this is the perfect time, HERE, NOW!

I don't blame them one bit in doing so. Can one actually expect protesters in general, and Tibetans in particular from not using this one-in-a-lifetime opportunity to denounce the cruelties being inflicted in Tibet?

Also, who cares if Chinese propers feel somewhat offended? The attack is not on them but on their government and its policies in Tibet (and Xinjiang Uyghur). If they want to take it personal, so be it. How they feel does not invalidate the motive and target of the protests. And if their little nationalistic feelings get a little bruising, so be it.

Let's not forget for a moment that the Olympics stopped being a non-political all-for-the-sports event when it got assigned to Beijing.

Beijing new exactly what he was doing and for what reasons when it lobbied for it. And the IOC knew exactly what those (political) motives were when they granted it. They opened the door for this, thinking (in a rather foolish way) that they could contain it.

The Olympics will go on, and the athletes will have a chance to do their shit and get their medals, all in the name of sports and peace and the cute non-political little rabbits and flowers and rainbows while a bit farther east Tibetans are getting fucked in the ass, NBC makes its bucks and trade between East and West continues uninterrupted as usual.

The Olympics will go on... in Beijing and in your TV set. Don't expect/demand, however, for real people, in real life in London, Paris, San Francisco (or in a Tibetan home) for people to throw flowers and kisses at the runners holding this torch of cruel mockery.

Truculent Sheep
10th April 08, 09:09 AM
2/10, you might as well have called him a doo-doo head. Have you ever thought about actually putting an effort into coming up with insults? You're bad at them.

All this from the shit-for-brains who thinks China's OK 'cos he's got nice in-laws.

Truculent Sheep
10th April 08, 09:13 AM
Look, I agree with (what I understand to be) the protestor's views, and what they ultimately want to achieve. Yes, the Tibet issue is a damn crying shame, and it isn't the first time the violent Communist nation that is China has done bad things to innocent people. What I disagree with is that the olympics is the proper venue to bear these thoughts, and that taking it out on the ceremonies and those involved will do anything other than ruin said ceremonies. You're ruining the Olympics and it isn't going to anything, because they're a communist country with a PR machine that'll make the protestors look insane and the Communists justified. The protestors are just giving the wrong people more fodder to 'prove' the world fears and hates them, and meanwhile you're fucking everything up for people like me who've only been alive for a handful of Olympics and would like to see some fucking sport, mkay?

So, to sum that up, there's no point trying to change anything, and it's dead selfish to disrupt such amazing sports spectacles as the gymkhana and vollyball finals? Thanks for that elucidation - it's certainly yanked the doors of my perception off their hinges. In fact, it's safe to say that my mind is blown, man, BLOWN!!!

Quikfeet509
10th April 08, 09:43 AM
US Democratic Party presidential candidate Hillary Clinton called on President George W Bush to boycott the opening ceremony of the Olympics unless China improved its human rights record.

HAHA funny, considering all reach-arounds Bill did with China during his presidency.

Harpy
10th April 08, 06:14 PM
[quote=socratic]Yeah, yeah, fuck China for being a Communist totalitarian state, we all know that. No one's debating human rights abuses have occured and probably will continue to occur there, or in its little conquered territories. Oh sweet innocent thing, do you not realise that CHINA is glossing over the atrocities they have committed since the 1950's? The rest of the world is aware of it but when the perpetrators are not honest about their actions and agenda, then protest may be the only way to drum the message into them.


Fuck the protestors for trying to ruin the fucking Olympics. Socratic, I am really surprised at your leaps of logic. The Olympics will go on, no one is 'ruining it'. In fact, protestors are just using the wide spread media coverage to get their message out (how's that for 'spin'). Just out of curiosity, are you Chinese by any chance?


So we invade them, right Lilly? WHERE. THE. FUCK. DID. YOU. GET. THIS. FROM. MY. POST?


Since doing anything otherwise is justifying their behaviour? That'll make the totalitarians stop being totalitarians, won't it? What kind of fucking extremist are you? You show little grasp of the situation then you come out with some totally batshit insane idea of how things should be 'sovled'?


Let's make China do what we want through force of arms.
I am calling you out on this you dipshit. Show me ONE person on this thread who has suggest such a thing you fucking idiot mule.


Diplomacy and politics aren't going to work at all, so let's just take on China, To borrow a line from Cracky, you are a douchebag.


Because by holding a competition for sport there, we're telling them we agree with what they're doing and have done. Just like we agreed with the bloody history of Germany by having multiple Olympics there. And just like we agreed with the bloody history of Japan by holding olympics there. And just like we agreed with the bloody history of America by holding olympics there. Just like we agreed with everything that's wrong with the world by competing in sport. The Olympics is far from than a mere sports competition you cretin. Every country can take a look at its backyard and fix things to make life better for its people. However, the fact that China is currently doing shit to TIBET right in front of the world's eyes and spinning it (may their media people die a thousand deaths) in a way they think is convincing to the world is fucking WRONG. You're one of those lily livered bastards who stands back and watches aren't you, you fucking tosspot of a weak willed excuse for a human being. FUCK YOU. You live in Canberra, have you visited the Australian War Memorial lately and remembered what it is the ANZACs fought for? You need to grow a spine and some balls.



You're ruining the Olympics and it isn't going to anything, because they're a communist country with a PR machine that'll make the protestors look insane and the Communists justified. The protestors are just giving the wrong people more fodder to 'prove' the world fears and hates them, and meanwhile you're fucking everything up for people like me who've only been alive for a handful of Olympics and would like to see some fucking sport, mkay?
Socratic: 'Oh I get that people were slaughtered and sterilised and tortured on one hand but let me get my sports fix mkay'. FUCKING TWAT.

Zendetta
10th April 08, 06:16 PM
FYI - protestors PWNED by SFPD psyops.

HappyOldGuy
10th April 08, 11:23 PM
FYI - protestors PWNED by SFPD psyops.
Ooh, mucho disagreeado mi amigo. Protesters by KTFO. They completely stopped the run, including the planned ceremony, made the chinese government supporters look like thugs, and got international news coverage that has notorious banwagon jumpers like herr clinton dropping shoes to jump on the train.

K. T. F. O.

Truculent Sheep
11th April 08, 07:56 AM
It seems the Xinhua Bullshit Bombers are out on a raid:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080411/tpl-uk-china-olympics-rage-43a8d4f.html

BEIJING (Reuters) - A wheelchair-bound Chinese torch bearer has rocketed to national fame after fending off protesters in Paris, becoming a symbol of China's defiance of global demonstrations backing Tibet.

Jin Jing, a 27 year-old amputee and Paralympic fencer has been called the "angel in a wheelchair" and is being celebrated by television chat shows, newspapers and online musical videos after fiercely defending the Olympic torch during the Paris leg of the troubled international relay.

Protesters denouncing Chinese policy in Tibet threw themselves at Jin. Most were wrestled away by police but at least one reached her wheelchair and tried to wrench the torch away.

Jin clung tenaciously to what has become a controversial icon of the Beijing Olympic Games until her attacker was pulled off.

Her look of fierce determination as she shielded the torch, captured in snapshots of the scene, has now spread throughout China, inflaming simmering public anger at the protests.

"I thought we had lost in France, but seeing the young disabled torch bearer Jin Jing's radiant smile of conviction, I know in France we did not lose, we won!" said one of tens of thousands of Internet postings about the incident.

This outlook misses four salient facts:

i. Said wheelchair athlete chose to take part in the rally and had a large goon squad backing her up.
ii. Reading between the lines, isn't it a bit patronising to portray the disabled as victims, especially ones who compete in sport? Given the wheelchair and her chosen sport, she must have great upper body strength, and could probably beat most men at arm-wrestling. I'm surprised she didn't deck the protester.
iii. It's ordinarily seen as a loss of face to have a disabled child in China. Strange how, all of a sudden, this disabled woman is being seen as a 'hero'. Damn cunning, these Chinese propagandists!
iv. China has been left looking like a wanker, not that this takes much effort. Hardly a victory - but delusional jingoism is one of China's chief exports at the moment.

HappyOldGuy
11th April 08, 10:53 AM
Okay, if the SF protesters won by KO, then Photo's of protesters assasulting a girl in a wheelchair = fatality. Jesus christ people, we know you are naive, that's part of your charm, but try to show a little awareness of the game you are playing.

WarPhalange
11th April 08, 02:10 PM
Okay, if the SF protesters won by KO, then Photo's of protesters assasulting a girl in a wheelchair = fatality.

The bitch had it coming.

Zendetta
11th April 08, 08:10 PM
Ooh, mucho disagreeado mi amigo. Protesters by KTFO.

Thats a valid perspective too - they forced the torch 'underground' and fuqqed it up for everyone who just wanted to gawk and clap.

Too bad no one tried to tackle Hershel Walker. I would have also loved to see the one-armed wheelchair Swordswoman bust out her champion fencing technique with the torch when it was in Paris.

socratic
12th April 08, 01:08 AM
I had this huge ass response all typed out, but in the end it just wasn't worth anyone's time reading it. Here's what I have to say about the matter:

I suggest that these protests will achieve nothing towards changing the actions of the Chinese communist government by itself, and will probably in some ways aid the government, specifically in lieing to it's own populace by giving the PR machine examples of violent action against China or Chinese. They'll probably take the footage of the protests and use it to 'prove' that foreigners hate and fear them, and using their PR machinations, they'll probably succeed in furthering their own agendas.

If we wanted to really get China out of Tibet and reign their actions in, it would probably come down to military force or something big, international pressure from the UN or something type big, to acheive it. This isn't something where you can get it done half-assed, not in the face of a totalitarian country willing to defend its own interests. Do you guys think war with China, and potentially Russia (and others involved with that 'sphere') would be worth it? You're right, I am being selfish when I'm saying the protests will 'ruin' the Olympics. They probably won't, they'll just cause disruptions, and if they continue to attack torchbearers, probably hurt innocents involved. But you're right, it won't stop the Olympics taking place.

And Lilly: I'm Australian. My skin is white. My ethnicity is irrelevant to my views or my argument. And the Anzacs fought and died for Queen and Country and their own personal beliefs as they were conscripted into horrible wars. I doubt these protests have anything to do with patriotism, and I doubt I'm Unpatriotic simply because I disagree with them or their methods.


Too bad no one tried to tackle Hershel Walker. I would have also loved to see the one-armed wheelchair Swordswoman bust out her champion fencing technique with the torch when it was in Paris.

One Armed Boxer meets Zorro?

ironlurker
12th April 08, 03:11 AM
I think in hosting the games China got trolled, big time.

All the dirty laundry has, and will be, out there. FFS, anyone with half a brain would have known there is a very large, well-coordinated, popular community of critics and protestors in many countries that would go all out. The presence of the international media, athletes, support staff, etc. is going to mean a million "LOL fried dog" stories, just for starters.

I don't like the way this is playing out. I'm not disagreeing with the protestors or their criticism, but I think it's a fail-fail situation for China in many ways that someone should have realized - or possibly, that someone did realize.

This came out a few weeks back and I thought it was just odd until the torch shenanigans began:


(AP) China has replaced North Korea as one of the top three U.S. enemies, according to a poll of Americans.

Iran topped the list, with 25 percent naming it when asked which country is the greatest U.S. enemy, according to the Gallup Poll. Iraq came next at 22 percent, then China with 14 percent.

North Korea was named by 9 percent — half the number who cited it a year earlier. Pyongyang agreed last year to disable its nuclear facilities in exchange for aid, though disputes have continued over implementing the deal.

China, a growing economic rival of the U.S., was cited by 11 percent as top enemy a year ago.

Gallup first asked the question in early 2001, before the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11. At the time, Iraq was seen as the biggest foe, followed by China and Iran.


link (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/31/world/main3982791.shtml)

I think it's safe to say that there's been heavy pressure in US political, and possibly media, circles pressing for war (or "action") with Iran.

We've never fought a war with Iran; we've never fought a war with the PRC. Both are messed up countries with asshole-ish leaders where the vast majority of regular people likely want the government to change and some change has been slowly taking place.

Again, I don't disagree with the protestors. But there are many countries who suppress religious/ethnic minorities, engage in population redistribution and things veering into ethnic cleansing that we don't consider "enemies." Turkey, Saudi Arabia. We hear about North Korea having nukes, Pakistan it's somewhat ok, India don't hear much, Israel never (four non NPT treaty members with nukes).

I bet a hell of a lot more people know about Tibet's sufferings than the Armenian genocide, or the incredibly repressive measures used against Kurds.

I don't know Chinese history well, but I think there have been some issues with post-ROC vs. pre-ROC Taiwan Chinese and Taiwanese aborigenes as well.

Basically, I just hope all of this isn't convenient for some agenda.

Steve
12th April 08, 03:40 AM
Fuck, I would of listed the rest of the entire world as our enemies.

But that is just the capitalist in me.

/sarcasm

socratic
12th April 08, 03:53 AM
If anyone wants to see how well peaceful protesting works as an agent for change in terms of Chinese government policy, they should google 'Falun Gong'.

Father Dagon
12th April 08, 11:54 AM
I wonder how many athletes that really believe that politics and sports don't mix?

Cullion
12th April 08, 12:28 PM
Falun Gong is chinese scientology. I've watched several of their videos and the exercises are supposed to help you absorb energy emanated by a rotating swastika in their leader's Dan tien.

Had they talked about awakening every individual's own swastika with no reference to anything being emanated from a figure-head, I'd have given it a pass.

Cullion
12th April 08, 12:28 PM
For a modest donation, I can twirl your inner swastika.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
12th April 08, 12:56 PM
i don't want your wrinkly, calloused hands on my dick

socratic
12th April 08, 09:05 PM
Falun Gong is chinese scientology. I've watched several of their videos and the exercises are supposed to help you absorb energy emanated by a rotating swastika in their leader's Dan tien.

Had they talked about awakening every individual's own swastika with no reference to anything being emanated from a figure-head, I'd have given it a pass.
I was approached by one of their members once. He ended up giving me a pamphlet and then 'dissapearing' into the crowd when I was distracted by it.

Even if they are cultish (if but harmless), my point wasn't what their religious beliefs were, my point was that they're heavily persecuted (we're talking imprisonment and torture) and have been protesting about it ever since, internationally. And it hasn't done them a single lick of good at all- they're still being persecuted, and frankly it's probably just going to get worse, the more they kick up a fuss.

Edit:
In April 1999, 10,000 Falun Gong practitioners silently appealed at the Chinese Communist Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Communist_Party) headquarters at Zhongnanhai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhongnanhai) against recent beatings and arrest in Tianjin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianjin).[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong#cite_note-10)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong#cite_note-ReidG-11)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong#cite_note-schechter-12) Two months later, the Chinese government began a large-scale persecution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong), including widespread propaganda, torture, illegal imprisonment, forced labour, and psychiatric abuses. Falun Gong comprise 66% of all reported torture cases in China, and at least half of the labour camp population.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong#cite_note-USRep-13)[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong#cite_note-wildgrass-14)[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong#cite_note-Leung-15)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong#cite_note-heretical-16)[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong#cite_note-UN.org-2004-17)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong#cite_note-nowak66-18)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong#cite_note-USstate-19)
Example: The Chinese Spectacular, a big drama performance that's on this weekend (I think) in my city, is being labelled by the Beijing government as 'Falun Gong propaganda'. I have no clue what the Falun Gong have to do with it, if at all, but Beijing seems to think those damn sneaky little Faluns are still up to no good. Double edit: Turns out the producers are Falun practitioners, and the storyline follows an individual who is killed for practicing Falun Gong. I suppose one could call it propaganda, except for the part where that shit actually does happen. Also, strangely enough, Chinese government representatives in various Australian cities have been heavily pressuring MPs to not attend, in the name of 'good relations' with China.

Also, with the 'swastika' thing- you forget that Swastikas are an important religious symbol within Buddhism and Hinduism, so it wouldn't be particularly noteable if this influence was passed on to other groups and beliefs in China.

Shawarma
13th April 08, 10:09 AM
Bad example. The Falun Gong is hardly a popular movement of any kind, small wonder their protests are inefficient. Get a significant portion of the Chinese population out demonstrating peacefully and you might see some changes.

HappyOldGuy
13th April 08, 10:23 AM
Bad example. The Falun Gong is hardly a popular movement of any kind, small wonder their protests are inefficient.

75 million or so in China. I think that qualifies.


Get a significant portion of the Chinese population out demonstrating peacefully and you might see some changes.

http://bibliostoria.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/tien_an_men.jpg

Shawarma
13th April 08, 10:41 AM
Students. In one town. Not enormous.

And 75 million? WOAH, man, that's, like, less than a tenth of the Chinese population? Astonishing.

I do think you're right, however. The People's Republic of China doesn't seem to be very much into listening to The People.

avenger
13th April 08, 12:16 PM
Again, I don't disagree with the protestors. But there are many countries who suppress religious/ethnic minorities, engage in population redistribution and things veering into ethnic cleansing that we don't consider "enemies." Turkey, Saudi Arabia. We hear about North Korea having nukes, Pakistan it's somewhat ok, India don't hear much, Israel never (four non NPT treaty members with nukes).


Unfortunatly, India's on that list. Which kind of sucks, but it's true. Hopefully, it'll get better.

Anyway here's my two cents (these points might have been covered already).

If people are going to protest about China having olympics, they might as well protest against every other country. America is in atleast 2 wars, in which we violated Human Rights, we have Guantomino Bay, which again violated Human Rights. And we also did a whole bunch of shit, like sending the Japanese to camps during WWII, and the Immigration Act of 1917. India, another example, had the Anti-Sikh Riots, and the 2002 Gujarati Riots.

One reason why we have people protesting the olympics is because China supplies arms to Sudan or something like that, so they're hoping that China would try to stop the Dafur genocide. Hey, U.S is allies with nations like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Do you think if U.S started going, "hey, be nice to your people. Let them be free." Do you think that Saudi is going to be going "Okay, you're the boss." or "Hell No". Plus, the U.S is not going to stop being allies with Saudi, even if there were lots of protests like ones that are happening in China right now.

Truculent Sheep
13th April 08, 03:25 PM
If people are going to protest about China having olympics, they might as well protest against every other country. America is in atleast 2 wars, in which we violated Human Rights, we have Guantomino Bay, which again violated Human Rights. And we also did a whole bunch of shit, like sending the Japanese to camps during WWII, and the Immigration Act of 1917. India, another example, had the Anti-Sikh Riots, and the 2002 Gujarati Riots.

The 'We're Just As Bad As Them' argument is beginning to wear thin - democratic countries can occasionally act undemocratically and vice versa. But that in itself does not validate the superior moral stance of countries that are more or less free, or at least freer than others.

socratic
14th April 08, 12:39 AM
And 75 million? WOAH, man, that's, like, less than a tenth of the Chinese population? Astonishing.
Actually, it's more like:


Falun Gong claims 100 million practitioners in more than 80 countries.[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong#cite_note-CW_FAQ-21)
And that's pretty big. That's probably a lot more than the people protesting the Tibetan crisis.


I do think you're right, however. The People's Republic of China doesn't seem to be very much into listening to The People.
The PRC gubmint will either ignore your complaints or spin them to make you look evil. They're doing both to the Falun Gong, and you can expect them to do the same with the Olympic and Tibetan protests.

Also- I was just having a look-see into the Falun Gong's beliefs- they're a movement largely centred around Qigong. See? that's what happens when you leave Tai Chi to it's own devices.


The 'We're Just As Bad As Them' argument is beginning to wear thin - democratic countries can occasionally act undemocratically and vice versa. But that in itself does not validate the superior moral stance of countries that are more or less free, or at least freer than others.

Yeah, but it makes you a hypocrit if you don't protest the next Olympics in the US. Unless of course you'd like to make some arbitrary distinction about how much you can abuse human rights before you don't deserve an Olympic games held in your country.

ironlurker
14th April 08, 12:38 PM
The 'We're Just As Bad As Them' argument is beginning to wear thin - democratic countries can occasionally act undemocratically and vice versa. But that in itself does not validate the superior moral stance of countries that are more or less free, or at least freer than others.
When is a "superior moral stance" a cornerstone of international politics?

The "We're just as bad as them" argument is no worse as the "No true Scotsman" argument which is applied to "democratic countries".


Argument: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."Reply: "But my uncle Angus, who is a Scotsman, likes sugar with his porridge."Rebuttal: "Aye, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
We've overthrown democratically elected governments we don't like. The democratic process has resulted in unsavory or extremist groups gaining power- Hamas, Hezbollah. I believe the Nazi party never held a majority that didn't require coalition support, but they bulldozed their way through the democratic process using support from other elected parties.

Ahmadinejad was democratically elected - in a situation where many candidates were technically or just plain openly barred. Sugar in the porridge. Why is the former mayor of Philadelphia a "superdelegate"? If Hillary gets the nomination without a superior number of real delegates, and especially if she doesn't win the overall final popular vote, we'll see a shitstorm that will make the Ron Paulites' claims of sidelining and suppression look absolutely tame.AM I saying the US is the same as Iran? Nope, but you may have a flawed process (in the "most democratic" country in the world) that has a very significant impact on issues of war and peace.

This weekend, I watched an interesting UK show on something good that has actually been done under UN auspices. The Ottawa Treaty on landmines has been signed, ratified, or agreed to by 158 countries. Guess who hasn't? PRC, US, India, and Russia for starters.

BTW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Treaty#Signatories)

There is a clause in the treaty, Article 3, which permits countries to retain landmines for use in training or development of countermeasures. 64 countries have taken this option
"Moral relativism" "moral relativism" "moral relativism" is the buzz-phrase used to hide the real issue, which is moral selectivism.

We can make our decisions based on our "own" national interests, or we can be hippy peaceniks etc. and make the world a better place.

The issue I see is the moral selectivism in which a "superior moral stance" is in fact post hoc justification and/or window dressing for nebulous (at best) or disastrous (at worst) moves that neither act in our "own" best interests (i.e., 13 billion a month) or contribute to the spread of peace, democracy, and so on.

HappyOldGuy
14th April 08, 01:10 PM
How many reporters/dissidents has your government tortured or murdered this year. For most (all) of the posters on this board, the answer is zero. For most countries in the world, the answer is not zero.

There really are relevant differences. That does not mean that we sit on our fat asses and jack off at our morally perfect reflections. Quite the contrary. But sometimes the log in the other guys eye is more important than the speck in our own.

WarPhalange
14th April 08, 01:17 PM
How many reporters/dissidents has your government tortured or murdered this year.

Not enough.

ironlurker
14th April 08, 01:37 PM
But sometimes the log in the other guys eye is more important than the speck in our own.

Yes, but when, is the issue, and who decides when? When they have oil? When we want to invade them? When we have a trade imbalence? When they're making nukes? And who? The president? The media? Special interest groups?

I'm not saying X is not a shitty place, or the government of X is better than the US, but I'm saying we need to pay attention to when, where, and how "moral superiority" and issues such as human rights are brought up.

Truculent Sheep
14th April 08, 01:44 PM
Yeah, but it makes you a hypocrit if you don't protest the next Olympics in the US. Unless of course you'd like to make some arbitrary distinction about how much you can abuse human rights before you don't deserve an Olympic games held in your country.

Are you on fucking drugs?


When is a "superior moral stance" a cornerstone of international politics?

When we're being compared to countries that are run by utter cunts.

ironlurkerThe "We're just as bad as them" argument is no worse as the "No true Scotsman" argument which is applied to "democratic countries".[/quote]

Oh yes it is.

ironlurker
14th April 08, 02:14 PM
ironlurkerThe "We're just as bad as them" argument is no worse as the "No true Scotsman" argument which is applied to "democratic countries".
Oh yes it is.

It's no worse because in this case it's a total strawman to begin with.

Just answer me this, what role should "moral superiority" play in international politics?

HappyOldGuy
14th April 08, 02:22 PM
Yes, but when, is the issue, and who decides when? When they have oil? When we want to invade them? When we have a trade imbalence? When they're making nukes? And who? The president? The media? Special interest groups?



When it is possible to increase the net happiness of the world by doing so. Now obviously, that is just pushing off the question into another debate. But it defines the debate properly. Away from the shit flinging, "you are a poopoohead, no you are" discussions and into "what can we do about it."

ironlurker
14th April 08, 04:30 PM
When it is possible to increase the net happiness of the world by doing so. Now obviously, that is just pushing off the question into another debate. But it defines the debate properly. Away from the shit flinging, "you are a poopoohead, no you are" discussions and into "what can we do about it."

Well, you pretty much encapsulated every response here- the idea that pushing the question off is defining it properly is a little troubling to me.

Also, I think you may have responded with a statement of "when we should" as opposed to what I meant- "when do we see that this phenomenon (claim of moral superiority) occurs, or doesn't?".

My contention is that there are very specific groups of all shades and varieties that introduce "morality" into international politics in a selective manner, both hiding behind the nebulous "we" and convincing people that there is a consistency in the introduction of said morality into the equation.



In light of the heated controversy that has surrounded the Turkish-Armenian issue in recent weeks, and because of our concern for the unity of the Jewish community at a time of increased threats against the Jewish people, ADL has decided to revisit the tragedy that befell the Armenians.
We have never negated but have always described the painful events of 1915-1918 perpetrated by the Ottoman Empire against the Armenians as massacres and atrocities. On reflection, we have come to share the view of Henry Morgenthau, Sr. that the consequences of those actions were indeed tantamount to genocide. If the word genocide had existed then, they would have called it genocide.
I have consulted with my friend and mentor Nobel Laureate Elie Wiesel and other respected historians who acknowledge this consensus. I hope that Turkey will understand that it is Turkey's friends who urge that nation to confront its past and work to reconcile with Armenians over this dark chapter in history.
Having said that, we continue to firmly believe that a Congressional resolution on such matters is a counterproductive diversion and will not foster reconciliation between Turks and Armenians and may put at risk the Turkish Jewish community and the important multilateral relationship between Turkey, Israel and the United States.

link (http://www.adl.org/PresRele/Mise_00/5114_00.htm)

This was written in response to an episode which recently occurred


The national Anti-Defamation League fired its New England regional director yesterday, one day after he broke ranks with national ADL leadership and said the human rights organization should acknowledge the Armenian genocide that began in 1915.
link (http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/08/18/adl_local_leader_fired_on_armenian_issue/)

No, this is not a case of ZO(G)MG- many Jewish people, including ADL members, were upset over the firing. But it's an excellent case in which opposition to the introduction of "morality" in internationally-influential politics was directly opposed by the state, and frankly, military interests of certain very specific cadres. Bush (http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/10/america/turkey.php) hates the idea too, while we were and are bombarded with the gassing of Kurds by Saddam (which is and was a very shitty thing that happened), and we could compare Clinton's "genocide" of Yugoslavian Muslims as well. No one hears about the destruction of Kosovo churches and other "retribution" that's taking place at the hands of Yugoslavian/Albanian Muslims, but we hear every nutball Imam's declaration in the ME and case of Christian abuse there.

HappyOldGuy
14th April 08, 04:51 PM
Well, you pretty much encapsulated every response here- the idea that pushing the question off is defining it properly is a little troubling to me.

Not actually I didn't. By insisting on a focus on consequentialism, I pretty much threw away 90% of everything that was posted. Defintions are meaningless. The only relevant measure is outcomes. It doesn't matter whether the turkish assault on armenians was a genocide or just a really bad thing. There is no platonic solid for genocide out there in the higher realities for us to compare it to.

So what are the outcomes of such a resolution. Greater resentment between Turkey and the US. A clear signal to turkey that they need to take steps. Possible repercussions against groups within turkey. These are all valid measures to weigh. Preserving an impossibly perfect deinition of the word genocide=not so much.

Truculent Sheep
14th April 08, 07:51 PM
It's no worse because in this case it's a total strawman to begin with.

Just answer me this, what role should "moral superiority" play in international politics?

You've got a cheek using the term 'strawman' when I didn't even intimate that 'moral superiority' was anything other than the end result of a society that doesn't torture its dissidents or shit on its minorities.

ironlurker
14th April 08, 08:42 PM
You've got a cheek using the term 'strawman' when I didn't even intimate that 'moral superiority' was anything other than the end result of a society that doesn't torture its dissidents or shit on its minorities.


So how we make our decisions, how we justify them, and the end result of them is all one and the same thing? Strawman's better because this seems rather circular.

Do you have an opinion on how the democratic government of Egypt treats dissidents or how the democratic government of Turkey treats the Kurds- both countries being professional Anglo-US ass-kissers?

Also -arguments for and against the necessity of it aside- how do you feel about morally superior countries subcontracting out "interrogations" of detainees to third parties?

There are differences, but the one I see here is that between the ghastly, inbred, bloodthirsty hunter and the bourgeois housewife putting veal in her carriage in the supermarket.

Arhetton
14th April 08, 09:01 PM
The only relevant measure is outcomes.

Your altruism will be your downfall!

socratic
15th April 08, 12:50 AM
Are you on fucking drugs?

I disagree that the notion 'we're just as bad as them' is irrelevant. We are not equally as bad as them, but most western nations, (take the US for example) are currently practicing human rights abuses. Now, unless you'd like to say how much you can abuse human rights before you don't get the Olympics, I suggest you start protesting the next US-held Olympics as well, or otherwise you're a hypocrit for suggesting it's totally cool for Gitmo to exist but totally messed up for China to fuck Tibet.

Of course, this doesn't mean dick in terms of whether China gets the Olympics or not. But if we are going to exclude China, we should take a more aggressive stance on exclusion (bye-bye US, for example), or otherwise we're hypocrits.

By the by, has anyony else noticed there probably hasn't ever been an Olympic games held in Africa or South America? It seems like Japan, the US, Australia and Europe are the only Olympic-holding zones, when tons of other nations participate, some quite successfully.

ironlurker
15th April 08, 11:15 AM
Not actually I didn't. By insisting on a focus on consequentialism, I pretty much threw away 90% of everything that was posted. Defintions are meaningless. The only relevant measure is outcomes. It doesn't matter whether the turkish assault on armenians was a genocide or just a really bad thing. There is no platonic solid for genocide out there in the higher realities for us to compare it to.

So what are the outcomes of such a resolution. Greater resentment between Turkey and the US. A clear signal to turkey that they need to take steps. Possible repercussions against groups within turkey. These are all valid measures to weigh. Preserving an impossibly perfect deinition of the word genocide=not so much.
OK, I'm not, at least here, disagreeing with the coherence of what you're saying- but to be clear here is my first issue:

This is not the type of thinking most people - especially those to whom claims of "moral superiority" are addressed in the context of international politics- understand as morality. "Don't beat women," "marrying an eight-year-old girl is wrong," "it is okay to kill animals," "abortion is wrong", "it is the woman's right to choose to have an abortion or not"- the vast majority of those stirred up by selective jingoistic claims of "moral superiority" do not take a consequentialist view of morality.

If you have a consequentialist view (which I'm not sure but it seems you may), that's fine, but if you were a politician, speech-writer ("axis of evil"), or policy maker, and had such a view, while promoting an argument of "moral superiority" vis-a-vis another country to an audience that -does have- an absolute view of morality, I think it's purposefull equivocation at best, and deception at worst.

H.199 /S. 134, part 2: "the Serbian policies of aggression and ethnic cleansing meet the terms defining genocide." link (http://chrissmith.house.gov/lawsandresolutions/hres199.htm)


Having said that, we continue to firmly believe that a Congressional resolution on such matters is a counterproductive diversion and will not foster reconciliation between Turks and Armenians and may put at risk the Turkish Jewish community and the important multilateral relationship between Turkey, Israel and the United States.
See the difference? Now, one might say, "well, the Armenian genocide was a century ago, so what does it matter." The resolution on Bosnia etc. also says the importance of the resolution is to "seek to ensure that this does not happen in future crises." So, first, -if- an important part of the recognition of genocide is the prevention of future cases through awareness and classification, it does not make sense to exclude past cases of countries still extant that, moreover, refuse to acknowledge it's existence and continue to engage in the suppression of minorities.

Dad: Jimmy, when you took the 10$ from my wallet you were stealing.
Jimmy: Dad, was it stealing when Sally took 20$ from your wallet?
Dad: . . . -or worse: Well, Jimmy, Sally hasn't complained lately about me coming in her bedroom at night, whereas I have no need to go into your bedroom, and I'd be an idiot if I didn't weigh the respective consequences of these moral judgments

Depends on Jimmy's age -the sophistication of the audience-, but eventually ". . ." will make him think Dad doesn't mean what he says, and the latter horror will make him realize Dad's a flat-out fraud, for starters.

Rwandan genocide (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Rwandan_Genocide_Murambi_skulls.jpg)- 500,000 to over 1 million killed, depending on source (UN now says about 850 thousand I believe)

Some interesting notes on US gov documents:
May 9, 1994-

Produced one month into the genocide, this report declares that “Almost immediately after President Habyarimana was killed, in Kigali the Presidential Guard began the systematic execution of prominent Tutsi and moderate Hutu” and that the violence is “directed by high-level officials within the interim government”. It identifies the army as pursuing a “genocide …to destroy the leadership of the Tutsi community.” In contrast to many of the public statements of US officials at the time, this analysis shows that the government did discern between the planned slaughter of civilians and the renewed warfare between the Rwandan armed forces and the rebel RPF . . .

May 14, 1994-

The internal debate over whether genocide was occurring in Rwanda in 1994 and US officials’ use of the term began nearly as soon as the killing began. Nevertheless, Department of State officials refrained from characterizing it as such for weeks. While on June 10 Secretary of State Warren Christopher finally publicly called the Rwandan slaughter “genocide”, on May 21 he had authorized Department officials—“in light of the stark facts in Rwanda”—to use the formulation “acts of genocide have occurred” and authorized delegations to agree to resolutions using various formulations of the term. The memo argues for consistency with the use of the term with relation to Bosnia. A previous memo dated May 16, sought approval to use the term “genocide has occurred”, but this formulation didn’t hold. Interestingly, the principal officials here find no legal obligation in the use of either formulation; but in avoiding use of the “genocide label”, US “credibility will be undermined with human rights groups and the general public”. link (http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB53/index.html)

Bosnian genocide- 200,000 (and debated)- shoop da whoop, genocide + extra bonus congressional resolution

Oh, and looky here-

WASHINGTON – A photo exhibition on genocide titled “Lessons from the Rwanda Genocide,” scheduled to open on April 9, has been dismantled and postponed because Turkey took issue with one of its sections that referred to the Armenian experience [LOL]. UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon was scheduled to offer opening remarks.
link (http://yandunts.blogspot.com/2007/04/un-dismantles-rwandan-genocide-exhibit.html)

Now, on consequences . . . one could argue that there have been serious consequences with the aegis of genocide victims being given to the ethnic Albanians: legitimization of a separatist movement where -no- historical state existed (Tibet has about a 1000x better claim than "Kosovo"); lawlessness, drug trade, gangsterism and possible terrorist support at the hands of the KLA and its descendents, and reprisals against Serbs

from 1999:

The Serbs themselves, as well as their churches, have been targets of attacks, and the province exists in a "vacuum of law and order," NATO spokesman Jamie Shea said Sunday.
"There are about 30 killings a week in Kosovo, all of which I deeply regret," Shea said in London.
link- which continue to occur (http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9908/01/kosovo.01/)


Some contemporary act consequentialists (Singer) claim that morality requires doing that act that would result in the best overall consequences, even though no human being can possibly know what act would result in the best overall consequences . . . consequentialism does not provide a guide to conduct that has what those who take morality to be a public system consider to be an essential feature, namely, that being subject to moral judgment is incompatible with unavoidable ignorance of what general kinds of actions morality prohibits, requires, discourages, encourages, and allows

Most consequentialists think that there is a correct answer to the question about what counts as the best consequences, but they may not realize the importance of the fact that until that correct answer is universally acknowledged, many moral agents do not know the kinds of actions morality prohibits, requires, discourages, encourages, and allows. Further, on some act consequentialist views no human being can ever know what action would have the best consequences. On these views, consequentialism provides a guide to conduct only in a theoretical sense, but it is not meant as a practical guide to conduct. link (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/)

I don't know if you happen to be a consequentialist or not, but my point is this -and is has to do with morality as a public system as mentioned in the discussion- when morality is introduced by Anglo-American (and particularly American) politics into international politics it is not portrayed (or better, marketed) as consequentialist. "We must stop the genocide in Bosnia, because genocide is wrong, Hitler etc." /= "we want an oil pipeline free from Russian influence", "Iran is evil" (how absolute can you get?) /= "Saudis and Israel are ascaired and we don't want new pipelines under Iranian influence."

HappyOldGuy
15th April 08, 11:51 AM
I don't know if you happen to be a consequentialist or not, but my point is this -and is has to do with morality as a public system as mentioned in the discussion- when morality is introduced by Anglo-American (and particularly American) politics into international politics it is not portrayed (or better, marketed) as consequentialist. "We must stop the genocide in Bosnia, because genocide is wrong, Hitler etc." /= "we want an oil pipeline free from Russian influence", "Iran is evil" (how absolute can you get?) /= "Saudis and Israel are ascaired and we don't want new pipelines under Iranian influence."


The issues you are raising are exactly why it is essential to approach international issues with a consequentialist approach. because otherwise you will never understand what is being said. We always bring our experience baggage with us, and that has us looking on the international stage for analogs to the cops and laws we know so well. But they don't exist. Things that look kinda like them do, but they operate under totally different principles.

So the politicians try to communicate with us on a level that they think we will understand. They may be doing their best to communicate with us or they may be doing their best to blow smoke up our asses, they aren't going to tell the general public the real why's. And with one notable presidential exception, they are fully aware of the difference.

But that is why it really doesn't matter at all whether China is a bigger bully than Iran. The differences in how we treat each of those countries have to do with what we can hope to accomplish and what is the best way to accomplish them. Those are how everyone involved in the process makes the decision. They may be pursuing high and lofty goals, or screwing the world to line their pockets, but if you let yourself get caught up in debating their talking points, you can't ever know.

Steve
16th April 08, 02:54 AM
College paper editorial cartoon gets some heat due to the "blood spatter" imagery:

http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper873/stills/ql5c653u.jpg (http://media.www.diamondbackonline.com/media/storage/paper873/news/2008/04/09/Opinion/Editorial.Cartoon.Max.Greenberg-3310993.shtml?reffeature=recentlycommentedstoriest ab)

Click the picture for the Pro China comments.

Truculent Sheep
16th April 08, 10:24 AM
Well, you pretty much encapsulated every response here- the idea that pushing the question off is defining it properly is a little troubling to me.

How was I doing this? By not answering the question in the way you wanted? Tough shit.


Also, I think you may have responded with a statement of "when we should" as opposed to what I meant- "when do we see that this phenomenon (claim of moral superiority) occurs, or doesn't?".

That was as opaque as coal.


My contention is that there are very specific groups of all shades and varieties that introduce "morality" into international politics in a selective manner, both hiding behind the nebulous "we" and convincing people that there is a consistency in the introduction of said morality into the equation.

And so on and so forth. Realpolitik means never having to say you're sorry, after all.

Truculent Sheep
16th April 08, 10:26 AM
Click the picture for the Pro China comments.

It's hilarious to read so many comments from squealing little bitches who excuse the inexcusable and can't quite get their tiny minds around free speech...

ironlurker
16th April 08, 12:18 PM
How was I doing this? By not answering the question in the way you wanted? Tough shit.


Seriously, what happens to you each time a discussion gets interesting? Do you have to go fight crime or something?

Oh BTW, that (http://www.sociocide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1305174&postcount=94) was in reply to Happy Old Guy, not you, and I was saying his answer was very comprehensive, but there's still some parts I don't agree with. wb

Truculent Sheep
17th April 08, 05:28 AM
Seriously, what happens to you each time a discussion gets interesting? Do you have to go fight crime or something?

No - I just try not to get too caught up in a discussion I feel passionately about, as I tend to spend all day stuck in front of the computer otherwise. I also think more clearly that way. It's my safety valve - what's yours?

WarPhalange
17th April 08, 01:02 PM
He's not a retard.

Truculent Sheep
17th April 08, 04:20 PM
He's not a petulant little shit either.

WarPhalange
17th April 08, 04:25 PM
You do realize we're implying that you are, right?

Truculent Sheep
17th April 08, 04:35 PM
Yes, but I was referring to YOU, div.

socratic
18th April 08, 06:10 AM
Lol, apparently an apology to the Chinese community is required here, over that nifty little picture. Yeah, that ain't a little batfuck.

Question: What's the difference between the nation of China as a whole and the vile government of China? Is punishing both because we dislike or disagree with the actions of the other, or simply find them unacceptable? Is China as a whole and it's government inseperable? I suppose the real lynch pin of the issue is whether or not you think the entirety of China should get the big fat eff yuu because their government is vile in its actions, especially to its own people.

Truculent Sheep
18th April 08, 06:52 AM
I have no issue with the Chinese people per se, except when they try to excuse their nation's shite behaviour to themselves and others. For example, it's hard to really castigate some peasant farmer or poor sod who's slumming it in a Shenyang toy factory, or Hu Jia (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7329839.stm), all of whom deserve our support as the Tibetans do.

But to condone is to be in on the crime, and while that's no reason to 'Nuke The Dirty Xinhua Mother-Fuckers!!!!!', it does mean that those who do should get a proportionate share of the blame and metaphorical dragging over the coals.

On the other hand, they do make nice beer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbin_Brewery)...

WorldWarCheese
18th April 08, 01:22 PM
On the other hand, they do make nice beer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbin_Brewery)...
Tsingtao beer's okay. I've not had enough to make a final judgement.

socratic
20th April 08, 06:12 AM
Alcohol, despite having such disasterous consequences on pretty much everything, is totally the universal constant between all cultures. Booze and boozing binds us all as humanity!

avenger
20th April 08, 11:42 AM
Alcohol, despite having such disasterous consequences on pretty much everything, is totally the universal constant between all cultures. Booze and boozing binds us all as humanity!

Nah, you forgot about the Muslims. They aren't supposed to drink alcohol I believe.

ironlurker
20th April 08, 01:35 PM
Well, anyway, here's something for you yellow peril fans, Fair and Balanced (TM)


Chinese troops have been seen on the streets of Zimbabwe's third largest city, Mutare, according to local witnesses. They were seen patrolling with Zimbabwean soldiers before and during Tuesday's ill-fated general strike called by the opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC).
Earlier, 10 Chinese soldiers armed with pistols checked in at the city's Holiday Inn along with 70 Zimbabwean troops.
One eyewitness, who asked not to be named, said: "We've never seen Chinese soldiers in full regalia on our streets before. The entire delegation took 80 rooms from the hotel, 10 for the Chinese and 70 for Zimbabwean soldiers."
Officially, the Chinese were visiting strategic locations such as border posts, key companies and state institutions, he said. But it is unclear why they were patrolling at such a sensitive time. They were supposed to stay five days, but left after three to travel to Masvingo, in the south.
China's support for President Mugabe's regime has been highlighted by the arrival in South Africa of a ship carrying a large cache of weapons destined for Zimbabwe's armed forces. Dock workers in Durban refused to unload it.
The 300,000-strong South African Transport and Allied Workers Union (Satawu) said it would be "grossly irresponsible" to touch the cargo of ammunition, grenades and mortar rounds on board the Chinese ship An Yue Jiang anchored outside the port.
A Satawu spokesman Randall Howard said: "Our members employed at Durban container terminal will not unload this cargo, neither will any of our members in the truck-driving sector move this cargo by road. South Africa cannot be seen to be facilitating the flow of weapons into Zimbabwe at a time where there is a political dispute and a volatile situation between Zanu-PF and the MDC."
Three million rounds of AK-47 ammunition, 1,500 rocket-propelled grenades and more than 3,000 mortar rounds and mortar tubes are among the cargo on the Chinese ship, according to copies of the inventory published by a South African newspaper.
According to Beeld, the documentation for the shipment was completed on 1 April, three days after the presidential vote.
Zimbabwe and China have close military ties. Three years ago, Mr Mugabe signed extensive trade pacts with the Chinese as part of the "Look East" policy forced on him by his ostracising by Western governments over human rights abuses. The deal gave the Chinese mineral and trade concessions in exchange for economic help.
The shadow Foreign Secretary William Hague called on David Miliband to demand a cessation of arms shipments.
A South African government spokesman Themba Maseko said it would be difficult to stop the shipment.

link (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/chinese-troops-are-on-the-streets-of-zimbabwean-city-witnesses-say-811796.html)

Sun Wukong
20th April 08, 03:16 PM
The 'We're Just As Bad As Them' argument is beginning to wear thin - democratic countries can occasionally act undemocratically and vice versa. But that in itself does not validate the superior moral stance of countries that are more or less free, or at least freer than others.

Oh because you've spent oh-so-much time in china to know how free the people are and aren't.

the united states has been one of the most militaristic regimes in recent history responsible for more foreign deaths world wide than any nation.

it's wearing thin for you because it's conveniently true.

Sun Wukong
20th April 08, 03:41 PM
I have no issue with the Chinese people per se, except when they try to excuse their nation's shite behaviour to themselves and others. For example, it's hard to really castigate some peasant farmer or poor sod who's slumming it in a Shenyang toy factory, or Hu Jia (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7329839.stm), all of whom deserve our support as the Tibetans do.
And just what support do the Tibetans deserve and which Tibetan 'movement' are you supporting? If you can't clearly see that the "free tibet movement" is directly tied to a Tibetan seperatist movement, then you absolutely don't know what you're talking about.

The dalai lama can get up there and say he's just trying to get full religous freedom and protect the people of tibet, but he also said he wanted non-violent protests. Guess who crossed that line first? how many dead tibetan rioters were in the streets and how many did they kill? Want in one hand and shit in the other.



But to condone is to be in on the crime, and while that's no reason to 'Nuke The Dirty Xinhua Mother-Fuckers!!!!!', it does mean that those who do should get a proportionate share of the blame and metaphorical dragging over the coals.

And what about all the people who are literally being dragged over the coals to their deaths? What good has come of these riots and racially charged protests other than dragging up racial and cultural hatred toward the chinese? A bunch of misguided ignorant myopic protestors grabbed a fucking torch out of a chinese parapalegic's hands? WOW, that's just a huge fucking accomplishment there. I'm sure the chinese at home are feeling really guilty now.

I'll give ten to one odds that the vast majority of the western protestors don't even fucking know what they're really protesting. For tibetan independence? For religous freedom? For freedom of the press? To "end the violence" (LOL)? All of the above?

You know, I've yet to see the Dalai Lama mention once the people that were murdered in the streets by Tibetanese 'protestors'. You know, I used to think the Lama was a good man caught in the middle of one giant 'Catch 22', now I'm beginning to think he might be the opportunist the chinese central government says he is. He was smiling to the crowd and making press statements while the fires were still burning. Sounds like hypocrisy to me.

Sun Wukong
20th April 08, 03:48 PM
Bad example. The Falun Gong is hardly a popular movement of any kind, small wonder their protests are inefficient. Get a significant portion of the Chinese population out demonstrating peacefully and you might see some changes.

75 million falun gong in china? bullshit. not even close.

Additionally, Falun Gong are not the kind of allies anyone would want. the religion is probably the largest farce and money making scheme to come out of asia. Their mossiah dude recruited followers to burn themselves alive so he could make a political statement.

He told them they'd go to heaven immediately because of the astrological conditions for that day and that they'd be cloaked in a feeling of complete bliss. Until they started screaming their god damn heads off. Oh no man, the leadership of falun gong are fucking batshit nuts and were bent on obtaining money and power from day one.

Harpy
20th April 08, 05:59 PM
The dalai lama can get up there and say he's just trying to get full religous freedom and protect the people of tibet, but he also said he wanted non-violent protests. Guess who crossed that line first? how many dead tibetan rioters were in the streets and how many did they kill? Want in one hand and shit in the other.


Oh so now you care about the people who were fatally injured during the riots? Who crossed the line first?! Fucking hell SW...how far do you want me to go back and point the finger at the Chinese government?

Truculent Sheep
20th April 08, 06:59 PM
Y'know, one of the upsides of not being presently able to neg rep Sun Wukong is that he can't neg rep me in return for calling him a useful idiot with all the sense and insight of a brain-damaged gerbil that's being anally molested by the blood-drinking ghosts of Mao and Xiaoping.

Nor can he get me for calling him an utter tit - which he is. What joy!

socratic
21st April 08, 02:36 AM
75 million falun gong in china? bullshit. not even close.

Additionally, Falun Gong are not the kind of allies anyone would want. the religion is probably the largest farce and money making scheme to come out of asia. Their mossiah dude recruited followers to burn themselves alive so he could make a political statement.

He told them they'd go to heaven immediately because of the astrological conditions for that day and that they'd be cloaked in a feeling of complete bliss. Until they started screaming their god damn heads off. Oh no man, the leadership of falun gong are fucking batshit nuts and were bent on obtaining money and power from day one.

Actually, apparently their practices are centered around Qigong, and just 'cause they're cultish doesn't mean they deserve jail-times, executions and overall prosecution. These are still people.

As for Tibet, I'm not surprised that the military and gubmint has taken a brutal stance against it's Buddhist tendancies. A brief glance of Karl Marx's top quotes would reveal why. Not that I condone their behaviour. I'm just not surprised. After all, Communism has had some of the bloodiest leaders in history under it's banner.

Stopping their actions? Now that's another kettle of fish entirely.

Sun Wukong
22nd April 08, 02:57 AM
Oh so now you care about the people who were fatally injured during the riots? Who crossed the line first?! Fucking hell SW...how far do you want me to go back and point the finger at the Chinese government?

Those rioters killed over a hundred people while robbing banks, setting fires and brutally attacking non-tibetans with little to no reason. There are videos of them beating people to death and attacking random strangers in the street.

You've falsely villified the chinese government out a of an emotional need to find a villain in all of this and to your mind the chinese are the logical culprit despite having no understanding of chinese politics or history.

I won't call you stupid, but I will call you ignorant and perhaps a bit histrionic. Racist possibly. Randomly hating a people and government you really don't know a god damn thing about for something you have no real knowledge of.

I'm not sure what to call it, but I certainly wouldn't call it rational. I hope you're enjoying your bandwagon clusterfuck.

Sun Wukong
22nd April 08, 03:04 AM
Actually, apparently their practices are centered around Qigong, and just 'cause they're cultish doesn't mean they deserve jail-times, executions and overall prosecution. These are still people.
Executions, do tell. Please tell me of the brutal executions of the falun gong movement. Please, site them from the falung gong website; that will be even better.



As for Tibet, I'm not surprised that the military and gubmint has taken a brutal stance against it's Buddhist tendancies. A brief glance of Karl Marx's top quotes would reveal why. Not that I condone their behaviour. I'm just not surprised. After all, Communism has had some of the bloodiest leaders in history under it's banner.

Sarcasm is your weapon of choice then, fine by me.

Right, right, because the tibetan government and monestaries were OH SO fond of NOT buying and selling slaves and paying lip service to brutal warlords who stripped the skin from slaves to make parchment.

That, and when the CIA funded the training and uprising that was supported by the tibetan religous leaders, the government should have just been pleased as punch with the US and the Dalai Lama.

It's not like the lama himself owned slaves or anything. Well, it's not his fault really, he was just a kid raised in an environment where he was a living breathing god who could do or say no wrong. I'm sure he was perfectly knowledgeable of the filthy little activities of the seperatist movement the church, noble class, warlords and religous leaders were taking part in.

Sun Wukong
22nd April 08, 03:07 AM
And now for a historic account of Chinese/Tibetan relations.

90hPLnWA4hs

WorldWarCheese
22nd April 08, 03:10 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Sun Wukong, you silly ass.

Sun Wukong
22nd April 08, 03:10 AM
Tibet and the Riots from a knowledgeable perspective. Shocking, I know. Why would a native Tibetan actually know anything about his own provinces history or current events.

oG21V-JwWYs

WorldWarCheese
22nd April 08, 03:18 AM
While I'd loooooove to watch videos all day about how since Ghengis conquered Tibet before that makes this invasion right (Should we give Poland back to Germany?) or how you neglect to mention the price of organs on the market dropped significantly a short time after imprisonment of Falun Gong members or how you bring conspiracy theories of CIA coup d'etats into the mix but I'd much rather look for the Iron Man thread. Surgical removal of the cranium from the colon is a difficult and laborious task, especially when I don't have a scalpel (logic is hard to use considering that there's at least an inch of flesh on either side of the ear canals by the time he head penetrates that far up).

Sun Wukong
22nd April 08, 03:41 AM
It this is easy to write off what this man says as being propaganda, and I'm sure most of you cluster-fuckers will.

Before you do, please have a listen to Michael Parenti's opinion on Tibet and the Dalai Lama. You can find out more about Michael Parenti here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Parenti)

WWGGjpJJCKE

Sun Wukong
22nd April 08, 03:46 AM
While I'd loooooove to watch videos all day about how since Ghengis conquered Tibet before that makes this invasion right (Should we give Poland back to Germany?) or how you neglect to mention the price of organs on the market dropped significantly a short time after imprisonment of Falun Gong members or how you bring conspiracy theories of CIA coup d'etats into the mix but I'd much rather look for the Iron Man thread. Surgical removal of the cranium from the colon is a difficult and laborious task, especially when I don't have a scalpel (logic is hard to use considering that there's at least an inch of flesh on either side of the ear canals by the time he head penetrates that far up).
Thing 1: CIA involvement in the uprising isn't a conspiracy theory. it's an acknowledged fact. Not a Riddeck style fact, a real text book fact.

Thing B: WOW, how the fuck do you expect me to take you seriously when you're talking about the price of "Human Organs" in china taking a dip? Oh please, tell me this is from your vast knowledge of the underground black market where people buy and sell human organs for transplants. Unless you're talking about organs for medical testing, at which point, I'd have to ask just how much you actually know about the state of medical organ removal in china during the 80s and 90s.

Thing III: I do find delicious irony in being called ignorant by blatantly ignorant people.

Must be nice not to have to worry about things like, I don't know, actually knowing what the fuck you're talking about.

Sun Wukong
22nd April 08, 03:53 AM
Penn and Teller with Michael Parenti on Bullsh!t regarding the "Free Tibet" movement.

-nptmEZS3rc


And here's a great big fuck you about "conspiracy theories".

Sun Wukong
22nd April 08, 04:00 AM
I hope you caught a nut during all that cluster fucking. At least you got something out of it and look at that, you didn't even have to worry about an STD. Perhaps you guys should just look into group sex, I know a couple in Orange County that'll pay you for it if you're willing to compromise your integrity on camera.

At least this way, you'll get paid for looking like idiots to people who know better.

socratic
22nd April 08, 07:03 AM
Yeah, the system was shit before. I doubt anyone's really saying that everything should go back to Feudalism or something. But has the PRC's army actually improved things at all, has the whole COMMUNISM GO! thing just made things worse? It really doesn't seem like much of an improvement.

And you're right, execution is probably the wrong term for what happens to Falun Gong. They just mysteriously die after receiving severe treatments.

I'm pretty sure this is their website, so here's what you requested:
http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/special_column/death_cases/death_list.html

I wonder why the first 3 or them jumped to their deaths? It doesn't take much conspiracy to figure out they were probably being horribly mistreated. And, you know, if we want to go all Riddeck-y, we'll say they were pushed.

4 jumped. Number 5 was tortured to death. She didn't actually jump. 6 starved herself to death, 7 was force fed and mysteriously died, 8 died of gas poisoning from forced labour, 9 either starved to death or choked, 10's attempts to starve himself resulted in force feeding which resulted in lung infections, 11 dropped dead after severe torture, 12 jumped, 13's beatings resulted in coma-inducing brain damage and death, 14 starved herself and the resulting organ damage killed her, 15 was beaten to death, so was 16, 17 is somewhat of a mysery but those wacky Faluns claim he recieved severe pain, 18 died again from force feeding, 19 was force-fed by an INMATE and refused medical aid, 20 apparently jumped/fell.

That's twenty dead people out of over 3000 all documented on that website, with sources. Twenty people whose stories all begin with them protesting, or practicing their beliefs, and then getting arrested/detained and many of them sentanced to forced labour. It all ends with them dieing, many from force feeding, and many from jumping.

Does torturing or beating to death count as execution? If so, yeah, there were several executed. Care to explain, oh mighty scoffer?

WorldWarCheese
22nd April 08, 07:32 AM
Thing 1: CIA involvement in the uprising isn't a conspiracy theory. it's an acknowledged fact. Not a Riddeck style fact, a real text book fact.
Sure it is. You just keep telling yourself that ;)


Thing B: WOW, how the fuck do you expect me to take you seriously when you're talking about the price of "Human Organs" in china taking a dip? Oh please, tell me this is from your vast knowledge of the underground black market where people buy and sell human organs for transplants. Unless you're talking about organs for medical testing, at which point, I'd have to ask just how much you actually know about the state of medical organ removal in china during the 80s and 90s.
Not black market. Regular market. For transplant. Prices dropped like a rock right around then, docs in America found out they were from China. Hmm....


Thing III: I do find delicious irony in being called ignorant by blatantly ignorant people.
I never called you ignorant, I called you an ass. And silly, don't forget the silly.


Must be nice not to have to worry about things like, I don't know, actually knowing what the fuck you're talking about.
You tell me? o.o

Sun Wukong
22nd April 08, 07:33 AM
And why should the Falun Gong people lie? I mean, it's not like they have any experience doing it or anything:


Li [the leader guy/mossiah] writes he can personally heal disease and that his followers can stop speeding cars using the powers of his teachings. He writes that the Falun Gong emblem exists in the bellies of practitioners, who can see through the celestial eyes in their foreheads. Li believes "humankind is degenerating and demons are everywhere"�extraterrestrials are everywhere, too�and that Africa boasts a 2-billion-year-old nuclear reactor. He also says he can fly.

Sourcehttp://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,165166,00.html

And why would those followers leap to their deaths? Well, maybe it has something to do with the leader guy telling them if they harnessed their CHI right they could survive damn near anything.


The heretical fallacies of "Falun Gong" prove that it is out and out an anti-humanity, anti-society and anti-science cult. Li Hongzhi, the founder and chief ring leader of "Falun Gong", currently lives in New York. He has made up large numbers of lies and fallacies to deceive the practitioners and the general public. The following are a few examples of his fallacies.
Li Hongzhi says that the mankind has been destroyed 81 times, that the earth is about to explode very soon, and that he is the only one to rely on to prevent the explosion.

He says that the earth is the dumping ground of the universe, with the United States being the largest of all, and that only by practicing "Falun Gong" will one be able to escape.

He claims to be the ruler of the world and bigger than the universe.

He prohibits religious belief among the "Falun Gong" practitioners and accuses religions of deceiving people. He claims to have arranged everything and says that even the holocaust of Jewish people by Hitler was a result of the changes in celestial phenomena.

He makes absurd assertions that "science is forced upon the mankind by the extraterrestrial beings", that the computer is invented by the extraterrestrial beings to control the mankind on earth and that science is a cult.

He says that the "Falun Gong" practitioners must not see the doctor or take medicines to treat disease because "real practitioners never get ill". He even claims that "by practicing Falun Gong, one will not be killed even if he/she runs into a car".

He asks the "Falun Gong" practitioners to give up everything and "let go the thoughts of life and death to become god", and boasts that he will create a miracle by "making all practitioners fly in their body when they reach all-round fulfillment (in other word, die)".

He calls those who prevent the practicing of "Falun Gong" devils, and says that "the regicidal devils must be killed" and that the "Falun Gong" practitioners who hurt or murder their kin may pay back afterwards.


Source (http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/ppflg/t263446.htm)

Surely they wouldn't tell fibs for wealth or power though?

This is my favorite part:



He calls those who prevent the practicing of "Falun Gong" devils, and says that "the regicidal devils must be killed" and that the "Falun Gong" practitioners who hurt or murder their kin may pay back afterwards.

I just had to quote that twice.

Wow, who'd want to stop a guy like that from gaining power in their country? I just can't imagine why China would ever outlaw the practice of such a benign religion.

WorldWarCheese
22nd April 08, 07:39 AM
And why should the Falun Gong people lie? I mean, it's not like they have any experience doing it or anything:
I could say the same thing about the Chinese government.


Source (http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/ppflg/t263446.htm)
You mock the Falun Gong website as a biased source but then use the Chinese Embassy's as your own? Hermmm..............


Wow, who'd want to stop a guy like that from gaining power in their country? I just can't imagine why China would ever outlaw the practice of such a benign religion.
We have Scientology...

Sun Wukong
22nd April 08, 07:42 AM
Sure it is. You just keep telling yourself that ;)

So the papers detailing the CIA's involvement just kinda sailed right past in the night then?



Not black market. Regular market. For transplant. Prices dropped like a rock right around then, docs in America found out they were from China. Hmm....

Wow, cause, you know, I'm sure China didn't have people actually dying in their country of 1.4 billion people during the 90s. that would be crazy talk to believe for even a moment that it might have something to do with China gigantic emerging medical industry that until the early 80's relied mostly on fucking ginseng tea and medicine made from Tiger bones to treat serious illnesses in between over prescribing the hell out of the few western medicines that were actually cheap to manufacture. I went to a fucking pharmacy in Beijing and it took me 20 minutes just to explain to the staff that I wanted tylenol.



You tell me? o.o

I will, I lived in China and speak a fair bit of the language. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

WorldWarCheese
22nd April 08, 07:53 AM
So the papers detailing the CIA's involvement just kinda sailed right past in the night then?
Sauce.


Wow, cause, you know, I'm sure China didn't have people actually dying in their country of 1.4 billion people during the 90s. that would be crazy talk to believe for even a moment that it might have something to do with China gigantic emerging medical industry that until the early 80's relied mostly on fucking ginseng tea and medicine made from Tiger bones to treat serious illnesses in between over prescribing the hell out of the few western medicines that were actually cheap to manufacture.
From what I can tell from the news reports I saw around the time the change was slightly more drastic than a few more hospitals in Shanghai and Beijing would make.


I went to a fucking pharmacy in Beijing and it took me 20 minutes just to explain to the staff that I wanted tylenol.
Pfeh, you're telling me. I couldn't find it at all.


I will, I lived in China and speak a fair bit of the language. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I studied a summer in China, speak very crappy Chinglish and all that. One of the freakiest moments in my life is sitting in a dorm in Beijing watching CNN (the only thing in English) and seeing some fucked up Chinese general announce he's not afraid of launching nukes at the U.S. because any nuclear strike against China would only hit the cities which held a minority of China's population (is it 20%?). I thought "Great, this guy's going to get me killed by my own nukes."

Sun Wukong
22nd April 08, 08:24 AM
I could say the same thing about the Chinese government.

Right, because Hu Jintao said he could fly like, all the time.




You mock the Falun Gong website as a biased source but then use the Chinese Embassy's as your own? Hermmm..............

I think it's fair seeing as they are speaking in their own defense, but since you asked:



Harvard scholar Kai-Alexander Schlevogt has refuted Western media's attack on the Chinese Government's ban on Falun Gong, saying that the cult, given its danger to society, should be combated in any country.

"Cults of any kind, such as Falun Gong in China, are dangerous for society in any country and have to be combated with all means, " writes Schlevogt, a faculty member of both the Harvard Business School and Harvard Fairbank Center for East Asian Research, Asian Center, in an article published in today's China Daily.


The mass media has concentrated on the development of the Falun Gong cult in China in recent weeks, he says, "The foreign media was quick to attack China's determined efforts to protect its citizens from life-threatening manipulative practices."


"Unfortunately," he notes, "the allegedly objective media was silent about the fact that there are thousands of Qigong groups in China," who had always had the freedom to pursue their hobby. Neither did it mention that Falun Gong is a cult, not a simple association of practitioners.


Instead, foreign media described Falun Gong as a harmless meditation group, which could not seriously cause any damage to China, just "to make China look ridiculous in the eyes of Westerners," "as always in this type of criticism," he says. Schlevogt points out that cults usually have secret hierarchies, request obedience and engage in personality cults for their founders who wield absolute authority. Their aim is "to amass great wealth and power for the organization and the leader himself. "


Falun Gong "engages in pyramid schemes, a fact which Western media does not mention," he says. For example, the cult has manipulated its followers to believe blindly in the words of their leader. They refute medical advice because of their belief in the "supernatural power" of their leader. "This often costs them their lives," he adds.


The author says that given all these dangers and abuses, people should thank the Chinese Government for taking a determined stance to uphold its long-standing values and act as a mighty fortress for the welfare of its citizens.

"This decisive action is especially important, given that cults eliminate the individual's ability to protect himself. The followers of Falun Gong are trapped without knowing it, the real culprits are their leaders."


There is religious freedom for people in China, but manipulative cults should not be tolerated here and elsewhere, he says.


Source (http://www.rickross.com/reference/fa_lun_gong/falun97.html)

It's not like they're hurting anyone, unless you happen to be 12 years old and your mom douses you with gasoline:



Five alleged members of the Falun Gong have appeared on trial in a Beijing court for their suspected roles in organising an attempted mass suicide on Tiananmen Square earlier this year, according to court staff and official media yesterday.


The trial started on Thursday morning, one day before the second anniversary of the central government's crackdown on the sect.


"The court started the trial yesterday. No hearing is arranged today. It is not known when the trial will end," a staff member of Beijing Municipal Number One Intermediate People's Court told the Hong Kong iMail yesterday. The staff member refused to say who was allowed to attend the case although an official report claimed the trial was "open."


Liu Yunfang, Wang Jindong, Liu Xiuqin and Liu Baorong were charged with "using an evil cult organisation to make people die", Beijing Daily said yesterday.


"Xue Hongjun was charged for using an evil cult to sabotage the implementation of the law," said the paper which is run by the communist Party's municipal committee.


Seven members of the outlawed sect - six women and one man - attempted to set themselves on fire on Tiananmen Square on January 23, the eve of the last Lunar New Year.


Liu Chunling, 36, died at the scene. Her daughter Liu Siying, 12, died in hospital one month later. ...


Source (http://www.rickross.com/reference/fa_lun_gong/falun234.html)

Did somebody mention cheap organs?


-- There is no evidence that Falun Gong members are executed en masse to harvest their organs, this according to Harry Wu, a prominent US-based campaigner for human rights in China and an expert on Laogai (Re-education through Labour) camps.

Mr Wu, who spent 19 years in Laogai camps, has uncovered evidence that establishes that for quite some time Chinese prisoners have been used to supply organ banks and executed on demand for needy transplant patients.
His doubts are not over the practice but over the alleged spike in transplants and organs sale purportedly carried out at the expense of the Falun Gong.


Back in March the Falun Gong claimed that 6,000 of its practitioners had been sent to a secret concentration camp in Sujiatun district (Shenyang, Liaoning), and that at least 4,500 were killed to harvest their hearts, kidneys, corneas and skin (see Epoch Times, March and April 2006).


For Mr Wu, the Falun Gong’s claims are not corroborate by photos, documents or detailed information but are based on the testimony of few witnesses, neither of whom had first-hand information.


“I tried several times to see the witnesses, but they said no,” he explained. “Even today, I don't know their names.”


The two witnesses, who are now in the West, have refused to meet international agencies to provide more detailed information. Since they claim to have knowledge about thousands of people whose lives may be in danger it would be essential they be more open.


Mr Wu said he sent his own investigators but they failed to find the concentration camp or corroborate the claims of forced organ removals.


US State Department said its officials visited the area several times in April and found no evidence to support allegations that a site in northeast China was used as a concentration camp to jail Falun Gong practitioners or as a facility to harvest thousands of organs.


Claims appear even shakier when considering where the organs allegedly sold, which, according to the witnesses, is mainly Thailand but also in other regions of the world. But there is no evidence of this trade in thousands of organs, according to Mr. Wu, who noted that in Thailand the law does not even permit organ donations, unless they are between immediate family members. And if the claims were correct, this “would mean 1,500 persons per year or at least 120 persons per month whose organs were removed”.


“This would be impossible to accomplish in an environment such as Sujiatun,” for it lacks the necessary medical facilities and where 2,000 corneas could not be removed in less than two years.
...

source (http://www.rickross.com/reference/fa_lun_gong/falun314.html)





If you'd like me to quote the part about the super powers, immunity to harm and flying shit, I can, but first, I'd like to know why you find it hard to believe he actually said that shit? QiGong guys have been saying crap like that for a long time.






We have Scientology...

And they're doing so many great things.

Sun Wukong
22nd April 08, 08:45 AM
Sauce.


I assume you mean, Source?

Here ya go, and it's funny too.

-nptmEZS3rc

Sun Wukong
23rd April 08, 03:05 AM
Free Tibet, that's over by Korea right?

twHzXN3kNTs

Neildo
23rd April 08, 03:06 AM
What're you doing this weekend? I'll buy you a victory beer lol

Sun Wukong
23rd April 08, 03:12 AM
I'll probably be in town, I was in town this weekend, but it was a working trip.

Dude, I tried to call you to see if you wanted to watch Forbidden Kingdom on Friday night, but my fucking cell phone was dead.

WorldWarCheese
23rd April 08, 03:30 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twHzXN3kNTs
Lulz. I saw something like that about Iran on the Daily Show.


Forbidden Kingdom
DO NOT SEE THAT GOD-AWFUL MOVIE. Its sucks the sweat off a dead man's ball-sack. It's pretty fucking obvious the dude from "Stewart Little" directed it, and to be honest even the action was sub-par (for the most part, there were a few crazy good scenes).

Sun Wukong
23rd April 08, 04:55 AM
like I'm going to go see a Kung-fu flick for the story?

WorldWarCheese
23rd April 08, 05:56 AM
like I'm going to go see a Kung-fu flick for the story?
No, it's worse than bad. I nearly walked out, WOULD have walked out if I wasn't with the family. I mean, go see it anyways (You're in it, well, sort of <-- Your SN is a throwback to the Monkey King, right?) but don't say I didn't warn you :p

The only real part I liked was three of the fight scenes that were done half-decent and didn't go hyper-crazy on the really bad CGI.

There's parts of the movie where you literally cringe and go "No, he really didn't just say that. Did he???"

Arhetton
23rd April 08, 11:35 AM
funny stories will abound this morning as the torch passes through canada.

WorldWarCheese
23rd April 08, 12:07 PM
I've always wanted to see an angry Canuck (Well, I mean aside from Cracky)

Arhetton
24th April 08, 02:20 AM
wait, I totally meant to write canberra, my bad.

Sun Wukong
24th April 08, 03:19 AM
funny stories will abound this morning as the torch passes through canada.

I'm going to the protests in canada... and I'm bringing a video camera and a clipboard.

My objective: ridicule stupid white people. There will be video.

socratic
24th April 08, 04:01 AM
wait, I totally meant to write canberra, my bad.
They blocked off a fairly major road for the event, including the businesses housed on that road. The protest leaders claimed they'd be civil. God knows if that happened, though, I haven't seen the news yet. I was too busy recovering from DJ Shadow and Cut Chemist (fuckin' awesome show, btw) last night to go see the torch. Besides, I probably couldn't see it anyway, what with the barriers and half the fucking police force being put on "Protect the torch-bearer" detail.

There were designated "eldery and families" sections for viewing the torch, where apparently the protestors weren't supposed to go. Of course, all anyone has is their word that they wouldn't do it, so god knows if they have. I think it's fair enough that all the jostling should happen away from the elderly and the children, so I hope it panned out that way.

Edit: 7 arrested, Amnesty and pro-Chinese got in a bit of a scuffle, apparently. Plane wrote "Free Tibet" in smoke, and then another came along with a banner saying "Go Go Beijing Olympics". I was of the impression Robert Di-Castella was taking the torch- which, if he were still a runner- would have been a hilarious way to carry out the 'get faster torch bearers' policy.

socratic
24th April 08, 04:04 AM
Now, on a more serious note...


And why should the Falun Gong people lie? I mean, it's not like they have any experience doing it or anything:

I'm sorry, are you suggesting that over 3000 people didn't die? That they all just decided to take a holiday in Tibet and liked what the army had done with the place so much they decided to stay?


Sourcehttp://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,165166,00.html

And why would those followers leap to their deaths? Well, maybe it has something to do with the leader guy telling them if they harnessed their CHI right they could survive damn near anything.

Or maybe because they were under severe duress? From torturing? Say they killed themselves because it was the nicer alternative? Or even, woah, radical thoughts here man, say they were pushed?

Even if these people were just going "SAVE ME LI!" and jumping, you'd think the government would have figured what would happen by about death number 50 and stopped putting their freshly illegally detained little Faluns on the 5th floor next to the open window.

In case you didn't notice, it doesn't matter a flying fuck what these people believe in. The fact of the matter is they are people AND THEY ARE DEAD, because their own GOVERNMENT turned on them.


Wow, who'd want to stop a guy like that from gaining power in their country? I just can't imagine why China would ever outlaw the practice of such a benign religion.

Did you forget the part where they detained and tortured the followers they could get their hands on? You know, the exact moral and rational opposite to what they should be doing?


We have Scientology...

Notice that Anonymous hasn't actually tried to kill, torture, submit or otherwise abuse the practitioners because their leaders are evil. That's the fundamental difference here- the Chinese gubmint is prosecuting the individuals rather than the leaders (or as well as), and thus it isn't saving anybody, and the dead just keeps piling up. You don't combat cults by abusing all the grunts you can find, all the men, women and children- you disrupt its leadership, show the menials the truth, etc. You save them, not kill them.

Sun Wukung, the problem here isn't that the Chinese have banned the cult/religion. It's that they're blatantly abusing everyone who admits to practicing it, or who stands up for those who practice it. They're doing it wrong and it's getting people killed. Did you read the other 2980+ accounts of the dead?

Sun Wukong
24th April 08, 05:31 AM
Now, on a more serious note...
Yes, quite. I'm looking forward to making you look silly on the internet.




I'm sorry, are you suggesting that over 3000 people didn't die?
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. At least not from torture and murder.



That they all just decided to take a holiday in Tibet and liked what the army had done with the place so much they decided to stay?
Are you talking about Tibet or Falun Gong here?

There is no proof that 3000 Falun Gong members were killed for their religous beliefs.



In case you didn't notice, it doesn't matter a flying fuck what these people believe in. The fact of the matter is they are people AND THEY ARE DEAD, because their own GOVERNMENT turned on them.
There just isn't a shred of independent proof of any of that. There are claims by Falun Gong supporters. Plenty of them. They also claim the chinese government randomly burned people alive in front of Tienamen Square to discredit them when the people involved were well known Falun Gong supporters.

One of them is still alive today, though horribly disfigured. She talked about it openly but Falun Gong claimed she was lying. One thing is for sure: one of them must be lying. Which one do you think it is?


That's the fundamental difference here- the Chinese gubmint is prosecuting the individuals rather than the leaders (or as well as), and thus it isn't saving anybody, and the dead just keeps piling up.
One of my wife's art professors held weekly Falun Gong meetings on her college campus when the cult was officially banned. Do you know what happened to him? Not a god damn thing. Nobody ever even bothered to talk to him though it was public knowledge he was a Falun Gong qigong practitioner. He wasn't important, because he wasn't involved in the cult's leadership, nor was there any evidence he was involved in any wrong doing.



Sun Wukung, the problem here isn't that the Chinese have banned the cult/religion. It's that they're blatantly abusing everyone who admits to practicing it, or who stands up for those who practice it. They're doing it wrong and it's getting people killed. Did you read the other 2980+ accounts of the dead?
They aren't and weren't; and no, I didn't.

The "concentration camps" never existed. They claimed it was near Shenyang. A densely populated portion of northern China. It would have been impossible to put a concentration camp there without people knowing about it.

It would be like trying to build one on the out-skirts of Seattle or Vancouver without anyone knowing about it. There's NO FUCKING proof. Nada. None. Zip. Zilch. It's completely baseless.

...And absolutely ridiculous. I've been to Shenyang. One of my highschool buddies teaches in Shenyang right now. A small village in that part of the country has about 1 million people in it. How the fuck are you going to hide tens of thousands of people in a concentration camp?

It would be utterly impossible. The Chinese government is not the Nazi party. People pretty much go where ever the fuck they want. If they were going to build a secret prison, it sure as fuck wouldn't be in shenyang. they'd go up into the mountains or out in the desert were fucking nobody lives.

For fucks sake, the hospital they said all the people had organ's removed only has 300 beds, and it's in a completely public place. The scope of this conspiracy theory would have to include everyone in the surrounding area and anyone that worked at the hospital. There is no proof of their claims.

Source (http://www.chinaembassy.org.il/eng/xwdt/t252750.htm)

Source (http://english.people.com.cn/200604/12/eng20060412_257880.html)

Source (http://www.religionnewsblog.com/14782)

socratic
24th April 08, 11:15 AM
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. At least not from torture and murder.

So are you prepared to give an unbiased source suggesting that no Falun Gong practioner ever died at the hands of the Chinese government?


Are you talking about Tibet or Falun Gong here?

I'm talking about all 3000+ Falun Gong you seem to infer either are still in their homes, never existed, or mysteriously dissapeared but it totally had nothing to do with the gubmint.


There is no proof that 3000 Falun Gong members were killed for their religous beliefs.

How about rounded up due to their outspoken nature and hated religious beliefs and then dieing of various causes?


There just isn't a shred of independent proof of any of that. There are claims by Falun Gong supporters. Plenty of them. They also claim the chinese government randomly burned people alive in front of Tienamen Square to discredit them when the people involved were well known Falun Gong supporters.

So you recon every single death recorded on that page was complete conspiracy?


One of them is still alive today, though horribly disfigured. She talked about it openly but Falun Gong claimed she was lying. One thing is for sure: one of them must be lying. Which one do you think it is?

I'd say both.


One of my wife's art professors held weekly Falun Gong meetings on her college campus when the cult was officially banned. Do you know what happened to him? Not a god damn thing. Nobody ever even bothered to talk to him though it was public knowledge he was a Falun Gong qigong practitioner. He wasn't important, because he wasn't involved in the cult's leadership, nor was there any evidence he was involved in any wrong doing.

Did he go around waving signs saying "I'M A FALUN GONG PRACTITIONER AND I THINK THE GOVERNMENT SUCKS!"?

Just 'cause one guy you knew of who was a Falun didn't die doesn't mean none of them have.


They aren't and weren't; and no, I didn't.

Why not? While we're telling people and their families that they never died, you might as well get to know the names and how they totally didn't die. You never know, you might learn something.

As for concentration camps, I said nothing about camps. I don't know where you got that one from. I gave you a link to apparently confirmed dead, and I'd be willing to bet the majority of them were simply ordinary people who said "This sucks" and got forced labour or detention and then a mysterious-at-best death.

Sun Wukong
25th April 08, 09:11 PM
So are you prepared to give an unbiased source suggesting that no Falun Gong practioner ever died at the hands of the Chinese government?

The question isn't "Did the Chinese government ever kill anyone involved with Falun Gong?"

Of course, they may have, but did they kill people at the ridiculous rate that the Falun Gong claims?

And more specifically, did the government under their own laws find reason to execute a Falun Gong member for a crime? The cult had a large following for a short time and it's fairly possible that people were arrested for capital offenses who were Falun Gong members.

I recall five men being arrested for involvement with the suicide burnings in the Tienemen Square, and am fairly sure they were probably punished to the fullest extent of the law. None of which included a death sentence.

Source (http://exposingthefalungong.org/self-immolation.htm)

Burning and enabling the burning deaths of 5 women, 1 man, and a twelve year old girl (which i'm fairly sure is fucking murder) seems to warrant a harsh penalty, especially in china.



I'm talking about all 3000+ Falun Gong you seem to infer either are still in their homes, never existed, or mysteriously dissapeared but it totally had nothing to do with the gubmint.

With a population of 1.4 billion people, and a cult as persistantly attention seeking and dishonest in their methodology as Falun Gong, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me at all.



How about rounded up due to their outspoken nature and hated religious beliefs and then dieing of various causes?

There are lots of QiGong groups in China, what sets Falun Gong apart isn't their beliefs, it's the actions of their leadership to gain power, along with the fanatical indoctrination of their followers to believe and do whatever they are told by the leader guy.



So you recon every single death recorded on that page was complete conspiracy?

I can't prove that all of them were, but I can show serious evidence that some of the torture claims by Falun Gong are conspiracies.

For instance, Falun Gong makes claims that the Chinese government took part in "Sexual Torture" of victims.

Take a look at this article (http://rambodoc.wordpress.com/2007/09/17/is-the-falun-gong-going-wrong/), it's a blog by an MD who was reading up on Falun Gong's torture claims, and had been sympathetic, until he came across the "evidence" of one of the claims. Pictures of a woman whose breats had supposedly been electrocuted by stun batons (shadowrun anyone?). I'm not going to put the picture here (poor taste), but you can probably find the pictures yourself if you want to.

According to the surgeon it was a picture of a woman with advanced breast cancer.

In another instance there was a woman who claimed to have had an electrical baton stuffed in her mouth for several hours. Again the pictures just don't add up to the purported cause of injury.

In yet another instance there were two claims that people died from cancer caused by things that just don't cause cancer.



I'd say both.

So how would you reconcile the discrepancy?



Just 'cause one guy you knew of who was a Falun didn't die doesn't mean none of them have.

I'm not saying that nobody died, I'm saying that the facts have been grossly misrepresented by the Falun Gong leadership.



Why not? While we're telling people and their families that they never died, you might as well get to know the names and how they totally didn't die.
I'm not saying that nobody died, I'm disputing the manner in which they are reputed to have died. Convincing lies always are full of half truths. The truth here, is that two entities are playing out a battle for power; Falun Gong and the PRC. China has a lot of problems, and the leadership of the country has made terrible decisions regarding the governance of their people. Falun Gong is a cult that specifically attempts to gain wealth and influence while espousing an insane world view with their leader as a living god.

In the case of the lesser of two evils, I'd choose China, with all it's faults, any day of the week.



You never know, you might learn something.

I'd only learn more about what scope and depth the Falun Gong's leadership would be willing to stoop for power. So far, I'd say it's pretty fucking low.



As for concentration camps, I said nothing about camps. I don't know where you got that one from. I gave you a link to apparently confirmed dead, and I'd be willing to bet the majority of them were simply ordinary people who said "This sucks" and got forced labour or detention and then a mysterious-at-best death.
Falun Gong claimed that thousands of their members were sent to concentration camps. It's old news, if you'd like to see the claims that falun makes, I can send you here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong). A horrible article filled with lies, half truths and the most disgusting types of propaganda. Go ahead, read up and return with more indignant fury.

socratic
26th April 08, 12:30 AM
The question isn't "Did the Chinese government ever kill anyone involved with Falun Gong?"
This was what I was of the impression you were debating.


Of course, they may have, but did they kill people at the ridiculous rate that the Falun Gong claims?

And more specifically, did the government under their own laws find reason to execute a Falun Gong member for a crime? The cult had a large following for a short time and it's fairly possible that people were arrested for capital offenses who were Falun Gong members.
Interestingly, I don't think many of those stories show any sense of legal processes- more that they simply grabbed them and imprisoned them. Or maybe the ones I read simply didn't mention it, other than "Being sentanced to imprisonment" or "sentanced to forced labour". Speaking of which, do you dispute the usage of forced labour as a punishment within China?


With a population of 1.4 billion people, and a cult as persistantly attention seeking and dishonest in their methodology as Falun Gong, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me at all.
Even with a population as large as China's, 3000+ people makes a blip on the radar. A basic census would very quickly show the discrepancy.


There are lots of QiGong groups in China, what sets Falun Gong apart isn't their beliefs, it's the actions of their leadership to gain power, along with the fanatical indoctrination of their followers to believe and do whatever they are told by the leader guy.
That and they vocally criticise the government.


I can't prove that all of them were
Exactly.


For instance, Falun Gong makes claims that the Chinese government took part in "Sexual Torture" of victims.

Take a look at this article (http://rambodoc.wordpress.com/2007/09/17/is-the-falun-gong-going-wrong/), it's a blog by an MD who was reading up on Falun Gong's torture claims, and had been sympathetic, until he came across the "evidence" of one of the claims. Pictures of a woman whose breats had supposedly been electrocuted by stun batons (shadowrun anyone?). I'm not going to put the picture here (poor taste), but you can probably find the pictures yourself if you want to.

According to the surgeon it was a picture of a woman with advanced breast cancer.

In another instance there was a woman who claimed to have had an electrical baton stuffed in her mouth for several hours. Again the pictures just don't add up to the purported cause of injury.

In yet another instance there were two claims that people died from cancer caused by things that just don't cause cancer.
Got anything else you want to add? I'm curious what other claims/counterclaims have been made.


So how would you reconcile the discrepancy?
I'd suggest a) the PRC could be lieing to cover its own ass b) The Faluns in this case could be lieing to play up the situation and c) the victim could very easily be intimidated into lieing by either party. All they have to say is "Say what I want or I'll set you in fire again".


I'm not saying that nobody died, I'm saying that the facts have been grossly misrepresented by the Falun Gong leadership.
Got any official PRC numbers about how many have died? Have they even got records? If not, this is the exact kind of problem that comes up when people start discussing things like deaths under Stalin, where records of many deaths don't exist, and so you get apologists claiming small numbers and other claiming larger.


I'm not saying that nobody died, I'm disputing the manner in which they are reputed to have died. Convincing lies always are full of half truths. The truth here, is that two entities are playing out a battle for power; Falun Gong and the PRC. China has a lot of problems, and the leadership of the country has made terrible decisions regarding the governance of their people. Falun Gong is a cult that specifically attempts to gain wealth and influence while espousing an insane world view with their leader as a living god.[quote]

Okay, so it's a cult. The people are still dead. If you want to debunk what's been said on the link I posted, then I encourage you to present reliable materials that suggest the recorded deaths on the website were hoaxes or lies, at least in terms of the manner of death.

[quote]In the case of the lesser of two evils, I'd choose China, with all it's faults, any day of the week.
Didn't you watch your own link to the Penn and Teller show? The lesser of two evils is still evil.


I'd only learn more about what scope and depth the Falun Gong's leadership would be willing to stoop for power. So far, I'd say it's pretty fucking low.
You're still forgetting the part where everyday practitioners are dead and not by the actions of fellow Falun Gong, ala the link I posted.


Falun Gong claimed that thousands of their members were sent to concentration camps. It's old news, if you'd like to see the claims that falun makes, I can send you here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong). A horrible article filled with lies, half truths and the most disgusting types of propaganda. Go ahead, read up and return with more indignant fury.
Better yet, I went straight to the horses mouth and took a look at the UN report. WARNING: Graphic images of deceased. DEFINITELY NSFW.

http://flghrwg.net/reports/UN2004/UN2004.pdf

I think I found the pic of the woman who got the stun baton in the gob. Just remember that you're calling bullshit on the United Nations, here. (Her picture is presented on the cover of the PDF, and the notes explain her story).


Since July 20, 1999, from information that has leaked through
the tight control of the Chinese government, we know that millions of
people have suffered arbitrary incarceration, almost all under inhumane
conditions; hundreds of thousands, including pregnant women,
the elderly, and young children, have been put into labor camps; thousands
have been detained and severely tortured with nerve-damaging
drugs in mental hospitals. Thousands have died in custody, while countless
others are still unaccounted for. The scope and severity of the
atrocities are difficult to fathom.

...

In extreme cases, an eight-month-old infant was killed
with his mother, a 73-year-old grandmother was murdered,
and a disabled man with a hunched back was killed when police forcefully “flattened out” his torso.

...

In addition to external injuries, the police also inflict internal pain through horrific force-feeding.
These torturous force-feedings are not at all meant to nourish, but to cause excruciating internal pain.
Policemen, guards, or convicts who are ordered to do so will jam a firm plastic tube into the victim’s nose
and force it down to the stomach; sometimes it enters the lungs instead. The tube is often pulled out and
re-inserted several times, causing internal bleeding. Boiling water, urine, feces, hot pepper oil, concentrated
vinegar, mustard paste, and other irritating liquids are then poured through the tube. Of the known cases
of killings of Falun Gong practitioners, this is by far the number one cause of death.
Remember how many of the 20 people I listed died of injuries from force-feeding?

Edit: And before you mention propaganda:
Collected in this book are excerpts from annual reports of the
United Nations Human Rights Commission’s Special Rapporteurs, documenting
cases of human rights violations committed by the PRC government
against Falun Gong practitioners. The PRC government is a member of the
UN Human Rights Commission and a permanent member of the UN Security
Council with veto power. However, it cannot veto the findings of the Special
Rapporteurs.

Sun Wukong
26th April 08, 06:04 AM
This was what I was of the impression you were debating.
I was saying that Falun Gong is utterly untrustworthy and the tales of their persecution have been greatly exaggerated.



Interestingly, I don't think many of those stories show any sense of legal processes- more that they simply grabbed them and imprisoned them. Or maybe the ones I read simply didn't mention it, other than "Being sentanced to imprisonment" or "sentanced to forced labour". Speaking of which, do you dispute the usage of forced labour as a punishment within China?
Absolutely not. All prisons in China reqyure the prisoners work, IIRC. Prison reform is definitely an issue that should be addressed within China. However, the same can be said of Thailand, nearly every country in Africa, half of eastern europe, central america, south america and the rest of asia for that matter.

I've said many times that most of China exists in a largely 3rd world environment. I've taken a slow train through northern china and taken walks in some extremely poor villages and towns. The possibility that prisoners are made to labor is a problem, but it ranks very low considering the depths of the country's other problems namely healthcare, and under developed infrastructure.



Even with a population as large as China's, 3000+ people makes a blip on the radar. A basic census would very quickly show the discrepancy.
A basic census... IN CHINA? Where many of the residents of the country side don't even have reliable birth records? The margin for error would too large to take into account; especially with transient laborers.

Do you know why it's possible for a guy to have two families in china without anyone ever knowing? Their record keeping and oversight is rarely adequate compared to western countries.



That and they vocally criticise the government.

Dude, half the cab drivers in Beijing vocally criticize the government.



Exactly.
Do you have any idea how hard it would be to verify ALL of those claims? Are you being honest with yourself here?



Got anything else you want to add? I'm curious what other claims/counterclaims have been made.
About the falsehoods regarding torture and mutilations or just claims and counter claims of Falun Gong/ "Master Li" v. everybody else in general?



I'd suggest a) the PRC could be lieing to cover its own ass b) The Faluns in this case could be lieing to play up the situation and c) the victim could very easily be intimidated into lieing by either party. All they have to say is "Say what I want or I'll set you in fire again".
They set themselves on fire, nobody set them on fire. They put petrol in Sprite bottles, some of them actually drank some before covering themselves in it and lighting themselves (and two of their daughters) on fire. What did they get for their loyalty? Some of them even yelled out praises to the "great" Falun Dafa movement before and after lighting or trying to light themselves up.



Got any official PRC numbers about how many have died? Have they even got records? If not, this is the exact kind of problem that comes up when people start discussing things like deaths under Stalin, where records of many deaths don't exist, and so you get apologists claiming small numbers and other claiming larger.
I'm going to have to save this one for later because I don't have time to do alot of research tonight.



Didn't you watch your own link to the Penn and Teller show? The lesser of two evils is still evil.
This doesn't equate to a policy of evil deeds though. Most of the problems in China will not and cannot be fixed by any amount of outside pressuref nor are they necessarily intentionally the way they are. Especially the way they are mishandled by the western media and misunderstood by band-wagoneers



You're still forgetting the part where everyday practitioners are dead and not by the actions of fellow Falun Gong, ala the link I posted.

So do you believe that everything that falun gong claims on that page is true? And why not? Because they've been so honest about so many other things?



Better yet, I went straight to the horses mouth and took a look at the UN report. WARNING: Graphic images of deceased. DEFINITELY NSFW.

http://flghrwg.net/reports/UN2004/UN2004.pdf

I think I found the pic of the woman who got the stun baton in the gob. Just remember that you're calling bullshit on the United Nations, here. (Her picture is presented on the cover of the PDF, and the notes explain her story).

It's not just me that called bullshit on it, but medical professionals who were sympathetic to Falun Gong's claims until they saw the photos and realized the wounds weren't at all indicative of the claims being made.

I'm sorry if some of the UN council falsely believed stories of abuse and torture, but that doesn't make any of it true. Falun Gong is led by serial liars who will say anything to get what they want. The leader guy makes so many fucked up claims about being the savior of the universe who has successfully averted world war 3, protected the world from cosmic threats and is currently battling aliens for the control of the earth's minds.

You can't make shit like that up, and just fucking expect people to believe you the next time you say something that sounds like it MIGHT be plausible. If a person makes insane enough claims you CANNOT believe everything that comes out of their mouths, especially when it is something extremely susceptible to sensationalization.

I'm a skeptic. I have a tendency to NOT belive stories made up by people who claim that they can levitate, become invisible, and battle aliens. I also have a REALLY hard time believing things that people say who believe everything the aforementioned person says. They've all demonstrated they have a tenuous grasp on reality at best, if they have ANY grasp on reality at all.

Except you CAN because the world is populated with enough fucking morons to believe ALL of it. You can fool some people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people, all of the time.

Truculent Sheep
26th April 08, 07:11 AM
Except you CAN because the world is populated with enough fucking morons to believe ALL of it. You can fool some people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people, all of the time.

Oh the ironies...

WorldWarCheese
26th April 08, 11:43 AM
I'm sorry if some of the UN council falsely believed stories of abuse and torture, but that doesn't make any of it true. Falun Gong is led by serial liars who will say anything to get what they want. The leader guy makes so many fucked up claims about being the savior of the universe who has successfully averted world war 3, protected the world from cosmic threats and is currently battling aliens for the control of the earth's minds.
So you're saying the UN is incompetent enough to take a man who makes such grandois claims word for word for whatever he says? Also, isn't the physical evidence telling without Mr McCrazy? The US has crazy cults like these all the time, I mean, look at the Polygamist Scandal where the dudes are fucking their multiple female daughters from their wives who might have been daughters and claims of kidnapping and such. But look at what we do to these people who claim this one guy who's now in jail for child molestation is their savior who has mystical Jesus-powers that rivals Falun's Crazy. But no one's disappearing, no camps, and there's a visible, public open trial.


You can't make shit like that up, and just fucking expect people to believe you the next time you say something that sounds like it MIGHT be plausible.
Again, it seemed like the UN was more interested in physical evidence than what the Mad Not-So-Scientist said. And again, we have dozens of cults like that all over the place and no one's disappearing.


If a person makes insane enough claims you CANNOT believe everything that comes out of their mouths, especially when it is something extremely susceptible to sensationalization.
Are you suggesting the UN got duped by an insane old man into believing everything he said without proper investigation of their own?


you can't fool all of the people, all of the time.
Oh, I'm sure you can if you make it beleivable enough.

I'm a skeptic too, I'm skeptical about anything the Chinese Government which has to say since its little Cultural Revolution and the whole "Red Army Killj00 for disagreeing or sends to you concentration camp 'communal farms'", but that's just me.

socratic
26th April 08, 05:17 PM
I was saying that Falun Gong is utterly untrustworthy and the tales of their persecution have been greatly exaggerated.
You're still admitting that it happened, to some degree.


Absolutely not. All prisons in China reqyure the prisoners work, IIRC. Prison reform is definitely an issue that should be addressed within China. However, the same can be said of Thailand, nearly every country in Africa, half of eastern europe, central america, south america and the rest of asia for that matter.

I've said many times that most of China exists in a largely 3rd world environment. I've taken a slow train through northern china and taken walks in some extremely poor villages and towns. The possibility that prisoners are made to labor is a problem, but it ranks very low considering the depths of the country's other problems namely healthcare, and under developed infrastructure.
How lovely.


A basic census... IN CHINA? Where many of the residents of the country side don't even have reliable birth records? The margin for error would too large to take into account; especially with transient laborers.

Do you know why it's possible for a guy to have two families in china without anyone ever knowing? Their record keeping and oversight is rarely adequate compared to western countries.
Fair enough.


Dude, half the cab drivers in Beijing vocally criticize the government.
Do they gather in big, public groups to do it, just like the Falun Gong did?


Do you have any idea how hard it would be to verify ALL of those claims? Are you being honest with yourself here?
No, perhaps I'm not. After all, all they've got is the claims of victims and their family members to go by, right?


They set themselves on fire, nobody set them on fire. They put petrol in Sprite bottles, some of them actually drank some before covering themselves in it and lighting themselves (and two of their daughters) on fire. What did they get for their loyalty? Some of them even yelled out praises to the "great" Falun Dafa movement before and after lighting or trying to light themselves up.
Okay, so they're crazy. Do they deserve to die?


So do you believe that everything that falun gong claims on that page is true? And why not? Because they've been so honest about so many other things?
Whilst perusing the links on the clearwisdom.net list of the 3144 dead, I began to notice that most of them were links to other articles on clearwisdom.net. If those dastardly Faluns really aren't worthy of our trust, then I suppose I shouldn't, should I?

Still, I like to think that the victims and their family's accounts are actually worth some notice.


It's not just me that called bullshit on it, but medical professionals who were sympathetic to Falun Gong's claims until they saw the photos and realized the wounds weren't at all indicative of the claims being made.
Isn't it singular? One medical professional? And how hard is it for someone to russle up a doctor willing to corroborate their story? Just 'cause the doctor says he was sympathetic doesn't mean he is.


I'm sorry if some of the UN council falsely believed stories of abuse and torture, but that doesn't make any of it true. Falun Gong is led by serial liars who will say anything to get what they want. The leader guy makes so many fucked up claims about being the savior of the universe who has successfully averted world war 3, protected the world from cosmic threats and is currently battling aliens for the control of the earth's minds.
I just presented a report from the UN. How much more official and independant do you want my evidence to be? So if I go get a report from Amnesty International, will they be 'fooled by the Falun's lies' as well?


I'm a skeptic. I have a tendency to NOT belive stories made up by people who claim that they can levitate, become invisible, and battle aliens. I also have a REALLY hard time believing things that people say who believe everything the aforementioned person says. They've all demonstrated they have a tenuous grasp on reality at best, if they have ANY grasp on reality at all.

Except you CAN because the world is populated with enough fucking morons to believe ALL of it. You can fool some people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people, all of the time.
Yet you believe everything the Chinese government tells you, right?

You probably aren't going to listen, but here's what Amnesty Internation has to say about it:


Amnesty International is calling on the Chinese government to stop the mass arbitrary detentions, unfair trials and other human rights violations resulting from the crackdown on the Falun Gong and other groups branded by the government as ''heretical organizations''.(1) All the information available indicates that the crackdown is politically motivated, with legislation being used retroactively to convict people on politically-driven charges, and new regulations introduced to further restrict fundamental freedoms.

...

Tens of thousands of Falun Gong practitioners have been arbitrarily detained by police, some of them repeatedly for short periods, and put under pressure to renounce their beliefs. Many of them are reported to have been tortured or ill-treated in detention.(2) Some practitioners have been detained in psychiatric hospitals. Those who have spoken out publicly about the persecution of practitioners since the ban have suffered harsh reprisals.

...

While it is difficult to estimate accurately the number of Falun Gong practitioners currently detained or imprisoned - notably due to the continuous succession of arrests and releases - the information available indicates that the number is likely to be in the thousands. Some have been charged with crimes and tried, while others have been sent to labour camps without trial. According to Chinese official sources, by late November 1999, at least 150 people, officially described as "key" members of the Falun Gong, had been charged with crimes. The number of those by now charged or prosecuted under the Criminal Law is believed to be much higher. By early February 2000, at least 40 of those charged under the Criminal Law had been tried and sentenced to prison terms after unfair trials. In addition, hundreds, possibly thousands, of other practitioners have been assigned, without charge or trial, to serve terms of "administrative" detention in forced labour camps for up to three years. Unfair trials have continued and arrests and detentions of practitioners continue to be reported every day.

...

A number of Falun Gong practitioners are known to have been heavily fined, dismissed from their jobs or expelled from the Communist Party because of their Falun Gong beliefs. Some of those unable to pay the heavy fines have been detained. In cities like Beijing, police have reportedly raided suburban hotels and guest houses and fined landlords for housing followers of Falun Gong. In some places, practitioners have been subjected to public humiliation to force them to renounce their beliefs and warn others. In Shandong province, for example, a police official from Guangrao county reportedly stated in January that in late December 1999 six Falun Gong members were forced "to parade in public with signs round their necks and their hands cuffed behind their backs." The signs reportedly condemned their actions. The police official reportedly added that the punishment had been very successful in reducing the number of Falun gong followers in the county.(47)

Here comes the torture!


In October 1999, Amnesty International published a document entitled "Reports of Torture and Ill-treatment of Followers of the Falun Gong" [AI Index: ASA 17/54/99, 22 October 1999]. Since then there have been many new reports of detained practitioners being tortured or otherwise ill-treated, in some cases resulting in death. A few of these reports are cited below.

Liu Juhua, from Tangshan city, Hebei province, who is currently serving a three-year term of "re- education through labour", was reportedly tortured in police custody. Liu Juhua and another practitioner, Yang Xuezhen, were detained in Beijing on 22 September 1999 after resisting a police officer who tried to take away some Falun Gong books they had with them. Both were reportedly ill-treated, including by having their hands roped behind their backs to their feet and being burned with cigarettes on their hands. According to unofficial sources, they were taken the same day to the Beijing Qinghe Detention Centre and interrogated until 2 o'clock in the morning. They were deprived of sleep and were not allowed to talk to anybody. After three days they were sent to the Kaiping Detention Centre in Tangshan city. At the detention centre they met another practitioner, Zhang Shuzhen, who had also just been escorted back from Beijing by the police. She too had reportedly been tortured with electric shock batons, beaten with a large club and forced to stuff dirty underwear and socks into her mouth.

Among other cases, it was reported in January 2000 that practitioners from Shunyi county near Beijing were brutally tortured after attempting to attend the trial of Li Chang, Wang Zhiwen, Ji Liewu and Yao Jie in Beijing in late December 1999 (see above). One of those detained by the Shunyi police was Cheng Fengrong (f), aged 42. According to the reports, police slapped Cheng Fengrong while handcuffing her to a tree and later beat her with a broom which eventually snapped into two pieces. She was then reportedly forced to stand barefoot in the snow, punched and kicked, and had two basins of cold water poured onto the back of her neck which froze under her feet.

Oh, forgot to mention:


Amnesty International is deeply concerned by the numerous reports alleging that detained followers of Falun Gong have been tortured or subjected to cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment in detention. While it is difficult to verify these reports, many of them contain specific and detailed information about the circumstances in which torture is reported to have occurred, and the testimonies of individuals who were held in the same place often corroborate each other. These reports describe patterns of torture which are known to be common in China. Amnesty International believes that the serious allegations made in these reports should be impartially investigated, in line with China's obligation as a state party to the UN Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, which China ratified in 1988.

So yes, I'll admit, the truth of the matter is difficult to find, at best. What becomes obvious however (emphasis mine) is that clearly there's something worth investigating, according to this report from Amnesty, and according to the UN, these kinds of claims are real. If I'm not mistaken, this report is from 2000, and the UN one I linked to is from 2004, following serious investigation. They've only got a handful of recorded deaths (by name) in the report, and according to that old report only 3 Faluns had been admitted to have died, by the police, whilst under police custody.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA17/011/2000/en/dom-ASA170112000en.html

ironlurker
26th April 08, 07:58 PM
I'm a bit disappointed Hillary hasn't pledged to obliterate China yet. Clearly she's missing out on some electoral support.

WorldWarCheese
26th April 08, 08:16 PM
I have an image of her dislocating her jaw and swallowing it hole.

Sun Wukong
27th April 08, 03:31 AM
I'm a bit disappointed Hillary hasn't pledged to obliterate China yet. Clearly she's missing out on some electoral support.

Give her some time, she'll jump the bandwagon in no time.

nihilist
27th April 08, 04:02 AM
Mr. Hu Jintao, TEAR DOWN THAT WALL!

Sun Wukong
27th April 08, 05:35 AM
You're still admitting that it happened, to some degree.

Was Falun Gong banned? Yes.

Did China have a good reason to ban them? Yes.

Did Jiang Zemin go about it in necessarily the right way? No. (he's really good at fucking shit up).

Were innocent and naive people guilty of having faith in the wrong guy penalized for their bad decisions? Yep.

Does this mean the government of china began a campaign of torture, terror and murder just to be completely unnecessarily cruel to somebody? Absolutely not. Nothing get's media attention faster than wild tales of murder and mayhem.

Does it at least vindicate the wild lies spread by the Falun Gong leadership? No freaking way, if they had their way nobody, anywhere would take medicine for anything ever... except the leadership of the cult.



Do they gather in big, public groups to do it, just like the Falun Gong did?


Do you, per chance, know exactly what happened in the days leading up to the protest in Beijing?

Well, Falun Gong says they were arrested and publicly beaten for assembling in Tianjin and thats why they assembled in Beijing with 10,000 protestors.

That's strange, because the practices of the cult hadn't been banned at the time? If they were banned for speaking out, why start arresting them months in advnace of them "speaking out"?

Exactly what was it that put them at odds with the authorities in Tianjin?

I'll give you a hint: He Zuoxiu




No, perhaps I'm not. After all, all they've got is the claims of victims and their family members to go by, right?

Do you really? So their families saw them being force-fed feces? That's a strange way to keep a secret torture prison, don't you think?



Okay, so they're crazy. Do they deserve to die?

The point isn't "are they crazy?", the point is "are they trust worthy"?



Whilst perusing the links on the clearwisdom.net list of the 3144 dead, I began to notice that most of them were links to other articles on clearwisdom.net. If those dastardly Faluns really aren't worthy of our trust, then I suppose I shouldn't, should I?

Still, I like to think that the victims and their family's accounts are actually worth some notice.


An inherent catch 22 of crying wolf. When the wolf is really at the door, how do you know? Falun Gong is their own worst enemy.



Isn't it singular? One medical professional? And how hard is it for someone to russle up a doctor willing to corroborate their story? Just 'cause the doctor says he was sympathetic doesn't mean he is.

The Dr. wrote other articles, do they all look like the works of a shill to you?



I just presented a report from the UN. How much more official and independant do you want my evidence to be? So if I go get a report from Amnesty International, will they be 'fooled by the Falun's lies' as well?

Amnesty International is a bloated behemoth that champions all kinds of fucked up causes. I'll give you a little story about a man and his mother by the name of Nelson and Della Beaugh from New Orleans, Louisiana.

The day after Nelson's father's funeral he went outside to mow the grass; his mother was inside the house still mourning the death of her husband 3 days before. Two 17 year olds approached Nelson while he was mowing and drew two 9mm pistols on him. They forced him inside the house and murdered him and his mother, then proceeded to rob everything of value they could find.

They were caught within two weeks, still in possession of the goods, their finger prints all over the house, they even bragged to their friends about killing them; in the state of Louisiana they were sentenced to die for their crimes.

After that, they were tried and convicted, sentenced to many life sentences for other crimes they'd committed. Heinous stuff really. Amnesty International intervened because they had been minors at the time of the murders. one of them was only two weeks away from being 18. So, amnesty international championed their cause, and before you know it, the decision to give them death was overturned.

This wasn't exactly comforting to the bereaved, but at least Amnesty International didn't try to get them off completely and try to let them walk after serving only 9 years? That's exactly what they did. They went to that god damn court, dragged Nelson's family out in front a judge for the 3rd fucking time and tried to get a FULL acquittal for those two deviant mother fuckers.

They alleged that the defendants weren't prepared to make decisions about life and death because they were under 18. They managed to block the fact they'd been convicted TWICE for murder already by two seperate courts. They managed to block the fact the defence had never given the murder weapon to the police even though they knew where it was. They even tried to get a mistrial in court by attempting to pass around documents they'd already blocked from admission when the trial began to look unwinnable.

They even tried to play the race card in court against the prosecutor, saying that he was a racist because he wore a necktie with a hangman on it to court the day of the sentencing in the prior murder trial.

And when those two fuckers got sentenced to two consecutive life sentences for a double homocide, their 3rd guilty verdict for murder, do you know what the Amnesty International workers in the court did, right in front of the family who had their father and matriarch ripped from them? They started to fucking cry and hug the guys that never once apologized or show a god damn ounce of remorse for their crime in 9 fucking years.

Amnesty International isn't in the business of adjudicating right and wrong. They are in the business of protecting people who are alledged to be persecuted wrongly regardless of the validity of the claims. If you get enough people crying "foul", amnesty international shows up with propaganda in full force.

They aren't always on the wrong side of the fence, but they don't exactly have a stellar track record of determining what is and isn't justice in my opinion. The organization makes whatever claims it can to discredit anyone who disagrees with them regardless of factual evidence.



Yet you believe everything the Chinese government tells you, right?

This isn't about believing what the Chinese government tells me, this is about making an informed decision. I'm not basing my beliefs on PRC rhetoric, I'm basing it on what is factual, what can be proved, and what is hearsay.



You probably aren't going to listen, but here's what Amnesty Internation has to say about it:

You're right, I have a tendency to tune out bullshit. Amnesty International does good things, most of the time. They've also shown me a distinct disregard for forming balanced opinions or even educated opinions. Fucking shit, they don't even have enough evidence to make a case in any court of law.

Let's look at what the report actually says: Reports of abuse, reports of torture, reports of arbitrary arrests, reports, reports, reports: zero fucking proof; thanks for putting the hard sell in bold print, that was a big help.

Seriously, there was no proof of anything in there other than people said something happened to them. Repetitive similar sounding reports don't necessarily mean the same thing happened to multiple people: it just means they told similar stories. Urban Legends work in exactly the same way.

Multiple half truths do not equate to a whole a truth, ever.




If I'm not mistaken, this report is from 2000, and the UN one I linked to is from 2004, following serious investigation. They've only got a handful of recorded deaths (by name) in the report, and according to that old report only 3 Faluns had been admitted to have died, by the police, whilst under police custody.


So you're saying that because China reported fewer deaths in custody than Falun Gong members reported to the UN, then in your mind China is the obvious culprit?

Probably both are misleading, but I'd give heavy deference to China. Falun Gong has demonstrated repeatedly they will say whatever they need to say to get what they want regardless of how fantastic or incredible. Political propaganda is one bad thing, telling the world that you are a living god, battling aliens, performing miracles and simultaneously villifying all other sources of medical aid is quite another.

Cullion
27th April 08, 06:49 AM
I remember amnesty international trying to make a big deal about a persecuted Greek guy who refused to do his national service in the army. Pacifists in Greece had the option of doing community service like doing home help for the elderly.
He wouldn't do that either, so he got a brief sentence in a low security jail. His reason? He was a Jehova's witness.

I'm not a fan of involuntary servitude of any sort, but that incident made me very skeptical of Amnesty International's constant cries of 'OMG Facizm!11!'

socratic
27th April 08, 07:04 AM
Was Falun Gong banned? Yes.

Did China have a good reason to ban them? Yes.

Did Jiang Zemin go about it in necessarily the right way? No. (he's really good at fucking shit up).

Were innocent and naive people guilty of having faith in the wrong guy penalized for their bad decisions? Yep.

Does this mean the government of china began a campaign of torture, terror and murder just to be completely unnecessarily cruel to somebody? Absolutely not. Nothing get's media attention faster than wild tales of murder and mayhem.
No one ever does anything for completely no reason. I'm not suggesting the PRC government didn't think it was necessary. They clearly did, otherwise they wouldn't have done it.


Do you, per chance, know exactly what happened in the days leading up to the protest in Beijing?

Well, Falun Gong says they were arrested and publicly beaten for assembling in Tianjin and thats why they assembled in Beijing with 10,000 protestors.

That's strange, because the practices of the cult hadn't been banned at the time? If they were banned for speaking out, why start arresting them months in advnace of them "speaking out"?

Exactly what was it that put them at odds with the authorities in Tianjin?

I'll give you a hint: He Zuoxiu
Care to enlighten me?


Do you really? So their families saw them being force-fed feces? That's a strange way to keep a secret torture prison, don't you think?
Their families probably think their children are dead.


The point isn't "are they crazy?", the point is "are they trust worthy"?
And more importantly, "Why are they dead?"


The Dr. wrote other articles, do they all look like the works of a shill to you?
One doctor does not overturn an entire UN report. Edit: Much less one doctor only specifically commenting on a single case and photo. The quote from the Surgeon General could easily be taken out of context and is vague enough to be not a conclusive statement either for or against the claims. "Some of the pictures show things that can be found in a hospital" isn't particularly difinitive.

If the claims within the UN report of torture were really medically incorrect, why hasn't this been raised to the UN's attention? We are talking about a very large, powerful body here with access to international resources. One doctor doesn't overrule the UN through weight of opinion on a blog.


Amnesty International is a bloated behemoth that champions all kinds of fucked up causes. I'll give you a little story about a man and his mother by the name of Nelson and Della Beaugh from New Orleans, Louisiana.
It's also an international human rights organisation known for bringing such causes as the Darfur genocide to the public spotlight. Bring evidence of this case.

How many official, independant bodies do I have to show you reports from? Do I actually need to get a signed document from the president of the Communist Party before you'll actually accept what's being said?


This isn't about believing what the Chinese government tells me, this is about making an informed decision. I'm not basing my beliefs on PRC rhetoric, I'm basing it on what is factual, what can be proved, and what is hearsay.
I disagree. You're saying the exact same things every other PRC apologist says, and in the same manner. If I say "They're abusing the Falun Gong", you reply with "The Falun Gong are insane anti-science cultists". I read an article with this almost exact correspondence between Consuls and MPs in Australia.


You're right, I have a tendency to tune out bullshit. Amnesty International does good things, most of the time. They've also shown me a distinct disregard for forming balanced opinions or even educated opinions. Fucking shit, they don't even have enough evidence to make a case in any court of law.

Let's look at what the report actually says: Reports of abuse, reports of torture, reports of arbitrary arrests, reports, reports, reports: zero fucking proof; thanks for putting the hard sell in bold print, that was a big help.
Are testimonies evidence? Isn't that what a report is?


Seriously, there was no proof of anything in there other than people said something happened to them. Repetitive similar sounding reports don't necessarily mean the same thing happened to multiple people: it just means they told similar stories. Urban Legends work in exactly the same way.

Multiple half truths do not equate to a whole a truth, ever.
That or it reflects some reality linking the stories. Such as, say, they were all imprisoned/tortured/etc. PS: Eyewitness testimonies are evidence. PPS: A series of eyewitness testimonies regarding similar stories isn't a 'series of half truths', it's a fairly damning series of corroborating reports indicating some serious fucked up behaviour by the the PRC.


So you're saying that because China reported fewer deaths in custody than Falun Gong members reported to the UN, then in your mind China is the obvious culprit?
Yes. We could compare China with the USSR, and the situation would still be the same, and obvious answer wouldn't be "The victims are lieing".


Probably both are misleading, but I'd give heavy deference to China. Falun Gong has demonstrated repeatedly they will say whatever they need to say to get what they want regardless of how fantastic or incredible. Political propaganda is one bad thing, telling the world that you are a living god, battling aliens, performing miracles and simultaneously villifying all other sources of medical aid is quite another.
You do realise that compared to a civilian organisation, the sins of the PRC will always be greater, right?

If you think what mister Li said was bad, wait until you hear about this guy called Mao Zedong. I wonder what happened to his 'one hundred schools of thought' thing he spoke of?

Edit: In case you haven't noticed by now, I've presented two documents stating that in the very least, torture of Falun Gong members has taken place, from two very big and very shiny organisations. The only really important thing you've managed to say in response to this is that the UN has somehow been lied to, and that Amnesty International is full of shit, without evidence for either claim beyond personal opinions. Present evidence for your claims, because the opinions of the UN Human Rights Special Rapporteurs hold a lot more weight than yours do.

Cullion
27th April 08, 11:56 AM
Falun Gong is chinese scientology. If they were white you'd be calling for them to be banned.

WorldWarCheese
27th April 08, 12:43 PM
That might be so, but look at how America (or Germany or whatever) has approached cults (especially after Waco) and how China approaches them.

In America there is protests and the government has trials and legal proceedings and the like. In China everything is kept hushed and very secretive and finding the truth in the issues is difficult. I mean, both Socratic and Wukong make points and the fact that there's no real definite "Yup, they're lying" means it's a very clowded thing where in America, even if it isn't crystal clear no one thinks the government is setting up death camps. Same with France, England, Gernmany, any of these places with cults.

I won't lie and say I'm not biased (or if I did, not anymore). The PRC has always seemed pretty shady and willing to bend/break rules to keep things quiet and in their control (ala Cultural Revolution) and such. Just hasn't had the greatest track record IMO

socratic
27th April 08, 07:09 PM
Falun Gong is chinese scientology. If they were white you'd be calling for them to be banned.

I wouldn't call for them to be tortured and killed. I've already brought this up earlier in the thread- the difference between the treatment of Scientologists by their would-be prosecutors and the Falun Gong by the PRC is vast and terrible.

How many Scientologists has Anonymous, or the German government, tortured to death?

WorldWarCheese
28th April 08, 12:12 AM
I heard one guy loll'd so hard at an Anon vid he croaked. Does that count?

socratic
28th April 08, 12:48 AM
I heard one guy loll'd so hard at an Anon vid he croaked. Does that count?

Not until there's a report from the UN Human Rights Special Rapporteurs.

Harpy
20th May 08, 07:03 AM
Did anyone else think that the earthquake in China might be a karmic repercussion of fucking with the Tibetans?

Zendetta
20th May 08, 09:22 AM
No, i think its the result of tectonic plate movement.

nihilist
20th May 08, 04:15 PM
Lily gets upset when you refer to her ass as a tectonic plate.

socratic
21st May 08, 05:56 AM
Did anyone else think that the earthquake in China might be a karmic repercussion of fucking with the Tibetans?
I think that's a little over the top, don't you? That earthquake killed civilians. It's not like random Han Chinese civilians are going over to Tibet and taking turns kicking the Lamas in the balls or something.

Sun Wukong
21st May 08, 08:00 AM
Did anyone else think that the earthquake in China might be a karmic repercussion of fucking with the Tibetans?
It's a safe bet you're a fucking moron. The PRC has done far more for Tibet than the lama caste ever did for Tibet.

For fuck's sake, the government has been giving living stipends to the monks since they took control of the country back from the lama's and Qing warlords they just aren't letting the lama's run Tibet into the ground anymore.

Read a fucking book you complete dim-wit.

in short, shut the fuck you god damn moron.

Sun Wukong
21st May 08, 08:06 AM
I wouldn't call for them to be tortured and killed. I've already brought this up earlier in the thread- the difference between the treatment of Scientologists by their would-be prosecutors and the Falun Gong by the PRC is vast and terrible.

How many Scientologists has Anonymous, or the German government, tortured to death?
You have yet to supply any proof that any torture or murder has taken place at all. WHile there is ample proof of Falun Gong's engaging in mass homocides and attempted mass homocides. Need proof?

What do you call telling millions of people not to go to see a Dr or risk eternal damnation? Falun Gong is even worse than the $ci-jerks because they don't just limit their shitty medical advice to psychiatry, they include FUCKING EVERYTHING that isn't Qigong. Have any idea how many people they've fucking killed?

There is NO PROOF that Falun Gong people are being murdered at all. In fact, there's all the proof in the world that all that shit is complete and utter lies.

That wasn't a substantive report. It was based entirely on testimonies from extremely unreliable witnesses and claims put together by Falun Gong lawyers with barely investigated proof.

A bunch of gory photos don't mean shit, unless the photo's can be conclusively tied with a crime.

Falun Gong is infamous for making up wild lies; they most recently claimed the earthquake was a cover up for PRC "weapons" testing on their own people.

So, why are the people in and around Chengdu dead? A GIANT FUCKING EARTHQUAKE hit a whole province filled with barely adequate, structurally unsound buildings. That's why.

I'm sure they'll cite witnesses for that quite shortly too.

Truculent Sheep
21st May 08, 10:07 AM
It's a safe bet you're a fucking moron. The PRC has done far more for Tibet than the lama caste ever did for Tibet.

For fuck's sake, the government has been giving living stipends to the monks since they took control of the country back from the lama's and Qing warlords they just aren't letting the lama's run Tibet into the ground anymore.

Read a fucking book you complete dim-wit.

in short, shut the fuck you god damn moron.

This Propaganda Broadcast Was Exclusively Brought To You By...

Anyway, the poor sods who suffered because of the earthquake did so neither through nor due to politics. I'm sure they have everyone's best wishes here, though this thread was never about the average Chinese on the street per se.

Lily's point was satirical, which is a bit like bringing a snowball to a napalm fight around here. With that in mind, chill the fuck out people - or did Swift really think we should eat babies?

Anyway, do spare a thought too for the Qiang minority, barely 200,000 strong, whose main homeland was bang in the middle of the 'quake. They don't make the news that much and risk being overlooked.

Sun Wukong
21st May 08, 12:08 PM
for fuck's sake, those A.I and U.N. reports are claims and calls for investigation. Not actual completed INVESTIGATIONS. If you just bother to look, none of the investigations ever came up with any proof whatsoever of anything involving murder or torture other than accusations presented to them by Falun Gong lawyers as part of the usual cock and bull stories that cults like this invent.

Truculent Sheep
21st May 08, 07:00 PM
for fuck's sake, those A.I and U.N. reports are claims and calls for investigation. Not actual completed INVESTIGATIONS. If you just bother to look, none of the investigations ever came up with any proof whatsoever of anything involving murder or torture other than accusations presented to them by Falun Gong lawyers as part of the usual cock and bull stories that cults like this invent.

If that is so, please provide citations.

Harpy
21st May 08, 10:11 PM
It's a safe bet you're a fucking moron. The PRC has done far more for Tibet than the lama caste ever did for Tibet.

For fuck's sake, the government has been giving living stipends to the monks since they took control of the country back from the lama's and Qing warlords they just aren't letting the lama's run Tibet into the ground anymore.

Read a fucking book you complete dim-wit.

in short, shut the fuck you god damn moron.

Oh my god, I'm laughing so hard. Sun W, you took my post seriously? You Sir win the Moron/Dim-wit title 2008.

http://houseofboo.com/psyduck.jpg

Thx - very funny btw.

Toby Christensen
22nd May 08, 04:54 AM
Karma doesn't=bunch of post hoc ergo propter hoc events.
I for one am disgusted not by Chinese PEOPLE, but by the books I have read (particularly "Wild Swans") and by the fascist insertion of a government into the Chinese culture. Granted, the Emperors could be bastards, but China lost its dignity under Communism.

Falun Gong? Pseudo mystical nonsense that's as good as any other form of calisthenics really.

The Tibetans themselves??? Can't rightly say, but I have seen footage smuggled out of Tibet and they weren't happy. I'm off to read "The Robert Brown Report".
Plus they're not exactly happy under the Chinese, according to a Khampa man I spoke to and a nun who wouldn't even give people her name.

To top it off, one of the most successful Chinese in Brisbane fled to Australia as a little boy with his family BECAUSE THE DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT WAS OVERTHROWN VIOLENTLY.

Mao was Asia's Hitler. Those two could have raised hell, funny little munchkins.

Sun Wukong
22nd May 08, 04:59 AM
Proof of the PRC being better for Tibet than the Lama's ever were.

I don't have time to do alot of written research, but here's Michael Parenti on the Lama caste, the Tibet province, and the PRC.

WWGGjpJJCKE


Here's a link (http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html) to what historian Michael Parenti has to say about the Lamas, Tibet and the PRC.

I keep seeing the echoed claim that I am somehow shilling for the PRC, this is not the case.

This is the ass-hattery that I'm getting:

Truculent Sheep likes the Dalai Lama. Chris doesn't like the Dalai Lama, therefore Chris must like the PRC government, Mao, and communism.

Does nobody see the failings of that argument?

socratic
22nd May 08, 06:40 AM
Sun Wukong, I gave you documents from human rights organisations. All you've done is claim the Faluns are evil crazies from top to bottom, and that as a result the magical real truth from the PRC gubmint must be accepted. Even if you're claims that everything ever claimed by a Falun Gong practitioner is a lie are true (which is highly unlikely at best), that no physical evidence exists, etc, then it boils down to this: the UN's word versus yours. The UN is a huge international organisation with branches in peacekeeping and human rights. You're one guy who loves him some China.

PS: Lilly, you got me. I thought you were serious. I think I'm around too many vitriolic people or something.

Truculent Sheep
22nd May 08, 08:39 AM
Truculent Sheep likes the Dalai Lama. Chris doesn't like the Dalai Lama, therefore Chris must like the PRC government, Mao, and communism.

Does nobody see the failings of that argument?

You've lost me in the tangles and side alleys of your confused mind, but that's par for the course, I suppose.

nihilist
22nd May 08, 12:53 PM
Sun Wukong, the Tibetans would shit on you if they could.

Toby Christensen
22nd May 08, 02:49 PM
Nah, judging by the ones I meet they'd curry and eat him instead.
I've also learned that accusing somebody of being a cannibal is a supreme insult the equivalent of "cunt".

So I said it to a Tibetan man. In his own house. In front of a bunch of monks. He then corrected me on my bad grammar.

And for the record, Chinese people as a majority are scared shitless. Tianamen Square was machine guns and tanks vs bamboo sticks after all.

That being said, they know not to press their aggression on any further.

And they are collaborating with the Sudanese govt to steal resources from peasants.

Zendetta
22nd May 08, 04:16 PM
In the interest of Balance (ie "pissing off everybody") I offer the following articles:

this one talks about the birth of the hi-tech surveillance state and what it means for China (it ain't good). It makes a great point about "Stalinist Capitalism":
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/20797485/chinas_allseeing_eye

while this one points out that virtually everything you hosers think you know about Tibet is focused thru unabashedly pro-US propaganda organs:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8673

Sun Wukong
22nd May 08, 05:15 PM
Sun Wukong, the Tibetans would shit on you if they could.
Glad to see I've stirred up the hornets nest of pro-Tibetan/Falun Gong wrath. Note: I'm not anti-tibetan.

I wish I wasn't as busy with my job as I have been; otherwise, I'd like to entertain this attention to greater effect.

There's another side to these Falun Gong arguments that a lot of people are missing: all a person has to do to gain an American, or non-Chinese permanent resident card, is claim an instance of religous persecution in China.

I don't suppose anyone has any idea how appealing that is to people who just really want to come to this or another country to improve their economic lot in life. Now, it may seem low of me to claim that is exactly what many people are doing... but you do the mental math yourself.

You can risk riding in the hull of a cargo container crossing the ocean illegally or make it over here and stay legally by claiming persecution. It seems like a pretty easy choice to me.

Cullion
22nd May 08, 05:42 PM
Chris, I'm more with on you on the 'go easy on China' score than many people here, but Michael Parenti is not to be trusted. He's a big fat italian communist. I think he may have fucked more women than me, and have more money despite his loltastically socialist economic views. He's therefore suspicious to me. Deeply suspicious.

Sun Wukong
22nd May 08, 05:55 PM
Zendetta: Honestly, that doesn't bother me at all. It's not that I don't think that it's bad, but it doesn't contradict or offend any of my current beliefs about china. This is the problem that I'm getting all to accustomed to in regard to china: defend it, and you're a commie sympathizer or "useful idiot".

I know China has very real issues with suppression and repression of it's people. Those policies are uniform in China. However, the methods they use to suppress and repress people are much less draconian than people are frequently led to believe. it's easy to believe the outlandish ideas of back room commie torture chambers where little old ladies have their teeth plucked out and are forced to consume human waste for many westerners because they simply lack a balanced education about China.

China doesn't have to engage in that kind of activity. They levy fines, make arbitrarily restrictive rules and generally only observe most of them in the case of poor people who don't have any friends.

I'll give you an example: While i was in Beijing I had a conversation with a cabbie about the government. He told me he had been ticketed the prior day for speeding. No big deal until he told me the ticket was for 4,000 fucking Yuan, which was about the equivalent of $500 (that's a LOT of money in China).

I sympathized with him and he said that the tickets were generally arbitrary depending on which cop stopped you. Sometimes, those fines go right into a few cops pockets and aren't even filed on record. The problem here is two-fold: china has a very poor internal affairs department to weed out such abuses and the people of china generally never try to defend themselves from any official action, much less un-necessary tickets.

Internal affairs is bad because of cultural practices that expect "acceptable levels" of corruption, so they have in the past made mostly token arrests to show people what happens when the corruption get's out of hand. So, many people get a pass on their activities and merely have to deal with the spectre of getting busted as a deterrant. Of course, it still happens, but it stays within an acceptable margin that leaves regular people at the mercy of an arbitrary system of governance.

Secondly, people themselves in China DO have rights. You can appeal a traffic ticket and file personal lawsuits for just about everything that you could in the US. Most people do not choose to go through official channels because they don't want to deal with the possibility that the officials in charge won't rule in their favor and for fear of possible retaliation from the cop that gave them the ticket, especially if the asshole that gave the ticket was just going to pocket the money for it.

Of course, the government itself has great difficulty determining improper actions of police and officials because they use antiquated police procedures that are rather ineffective. So even if the judge suspects that the cop mishandled the situation, if he lacks evidence to show that the cop intentionally broke the rules, he rules in favor of the cop by default according to doctrine.

The state of the police force in China is a lot like it was in the US in the 1950's; ineffective and prone to corruption, but not so much that people just get randomly beaten to death.

Another trick that got passed along to me by a friend was people using photo's from automobile accident victims to alledge abuse for family members that are still very much alive or who have died from said incidents in order to get a ticket out of china. It may seem terrible to do it, but when faced with living the rest of your life as a destitute person with very few opportunities to improve your situation, people will take extreme actions.

Sun Wukong
22nd May 08, 06:10 PM
To get a better idea of how things are done in China, read "Over 1 Billion Served". It's a practical guide to doing business in China. Or you can just go to china and live there to see how crappy things are and how the government isn't going out of it's way to just kill innocent people, but it is ass-backwards in it's approach to managing society.

I've actually walked down the filthy roads in those poor villages, and seen what happens when a population 4 times larger than the United States is neglected and un-protective. If I had a choice to vote between the PRC gov and any republican you can name, up to and including David Duke, I probably just wouldn't even vote.

China's problems are much more intense than the government likes to admit but not nearly as insane. It requires a little familiarity with how things are done there to determine what the truth and lies are. The PRC is building off of a terrifically bad system of government.

Mao Zedong had this rotten idea of how things should change that were unfortunately colored by Lenin's practices of violent revolution. He got to power because the original rulership of the CPC was summarily executed by the ROC and he took up the call to arms in the CPC.

For most of his part of the revolution, he was in a three way war for control of his country with the ROC government (who were real assholes in their own capacity), and the Japanese who intended on killing every man woman and child in China or installing each and every one of them as a bottom feeding serf who could be killed, raped or forced to labor to death in really, real death camps (and not the invented Falun Gong variety). My wife's uncle died in one.

Mao then went about social reforms he called the "cultural revolution" which was a retardly backwards way of trying to reform the society to communist ideals. They destroyed hundreds if not thousands of temples and books. Gutted the education system and filled everything with as much pro-communist propaganda as possible.

I could go at this forever and write a dissertation of why the PRC government was bad. It would be a lie to say that it's just as bad now as it was during the cultural revolution. It is not. Most people in China enjoy incredible freedoms that are not seen in many other communist countries like North Korea and Cuba.

Why are they so different? Because they've learned a great deal about how temperance in governmental procedure goes a long way to making everyone's life better. They don't want a return to the bad old days of the cultural revolution. Mao put educated people at the bottom of the hierarchy of people, and today, they are the most respected in China once again.

Educated people get all the big government jobs these days and even guys that Mao threw into jail for being enemies of the state have held the highest office. One of the past chairmen himself was once thrown into prison by Mao.
There are many old CPC communists in power in Beijing, but they are swiftly becoming dinosaurs and their methods of controlling the government have changed dramatically since the 70's.

There is no impetus to randomly kill and torture falun gong members or random tibetans. There just is no reason to do it and the government really does regulate how it's people are treated.

Why torture to death a person for a political reason when it would be so high profile. Why return the tortured body to the family of the deceased at all? Why put concentration camps in the suburbs of enormous cities?

Tibet has a big tourist trade, why just randomly kill people in a place where there are tourists and foreigners who can take the story home and spread it to western propaganda?

None of those stories make any fucking sense from the perspective of the government. There is no impetus, nor is there precedent for torturing people to the extent that is claimed by Falun Gong

Zendetta
22nd May 08, 06:12 PM
Zendetta: Honestly, that doesn't bother me at all.

Dammit!!! I'll have to try harder next time!

Honestly, I didn't expect it to tell you anything you didn't already know. Rather, I just thought it was an interesting point of balance to the whole "China is becoming capitalist, and that equals freedom!" thing I hear so often. I can see it happening, but it could go another way too.

Te subtext in that article is that it is being done in cooperation with US corporate interests - and i see alot of potential for American-style "Stalinist Capitalism" too.

I don't see you as a dupe. I do sometimes wonder if your trademark righteous indignation might be softened towards China due to your marrying into Confucian Culture.

nihilist
22nd May 08, 07:44 PM
Ahh So...pussywhipped.

socratic
23rd May 08, 05:42 AM
Ahh So...pussywhipped.

Pussywhipped Propagandist is totally an awesome hip-hop alias.

Truculent Sheep
23rd May 08, 04:44 PM
The flipside of all this absurdity is that Sun Wukong really loves his woman and she must really love him too. It's rather sweet in a way, but I doubt it would translate well into a Rom Com.

nihilist
23rd May 08, 04:50 PM
Especially with him going on about Falun Gong during the sex scenes.

socratic
23rd May 08, 08:37 PM
Especially with him going on about Falun Gong during the sex scenes.

It'd certainly make his argument convincing!

Sun Wukong
23rd May 08, 11:14 PM
This is some stupid strawman bullshit right here.

My wife is chinese so I'm defending China?

Idiocy.

We don't even like the government in China. I can't help it if you've been feeding on tainted information creating bias and prejudice, that's your fault for being gullible enough to believe everything you hear.

You assholes accuse me of it, but never bother to find dissenting arguments from your own source.

Do me a favor, find some proof that any of the shit Falun Gong says is real. I tried, but I'm spammed with an enormous tide of Falun Gong blogs, organizations and epoch times garbage. Fuck, they have their own propaganda papers where they claim everything from the great leader guy preventing world domination from evil supernatural forces to claims that 1 out of 2 prisoners in China is a member of Falun Gong. They have 1.4 billion people in their country, and very few of them ever bought into everything that Li was selling.

See, I have this awful tendency to not believe strange and ridiculous tales of whoa.

But if you want reports saying that Falun Gong is full of shit about what they are selling, here are a few:

Link (http://newfilter.blogspot.com/2006/04/well-we-were-expecting-criticism-after.html)

Link 2 (http://www.usembassy.it/pdf/other/RL33437.pdf%20%28section%20CRS-7%29)

Link (http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2006&m=April&x=20060416141157uhyggep0.5443231&t=livefeeds/wf-latest.html) 3

Link 4 (http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060806_1.htm)

Link 5 (http://www.cicus.org/news/newsdetail.php?id=6492)

Link 6 (http://www.cicus.org/news/newsdetail.php?id=6492)

Link 7 (http://crc.gov.my/clinicalTrial/documents/Proposal/TCM_Stroke%20TrialProtocol%20synopsis.pdf)

Link 8 (http://www.rickross.com/reference/fa_lun_gong/falun339.html)

To be plainly honest, I hate Falun Dafa even moreso than I hate Scientology. They are led by a catastrophically diabolical liar who pads his pocket by telling people that going to the hospital is useless and only serves to damage your health even further; in short, they indirectly kill, torture and maim people for money. Just because they get people to do it to themself, doesn't mean it's not what it is.

Li is openly sexist, racist, homophobic, utterly uneducated, a black hearted liar, and a charlatan. He pretty much punches nearly everyone of my buttons; he profits from spreading ideology that directly allows encourages people to hurt themselves and their families.

They are absolutely allergic to dissent and have entire networks of propagandists spreading enormous fairy tales of abuse to gather monetary support from western politicians and ignorant white people.

Thanks for buying into his bullshit, I really can't blame you since the median ability to be objective or to think critically for youself doesn't seem to happen much on the internet.

Sun Wukong
23rd May 08, 11:25 PM
I'll fix the links, already on it.

Truculent Sheep
24th May 08, 11:28 AM
This is some stupid strawman bullshit right here.

My wife is chinese so I'm defending China?

Idiocy.

Fucking hell...


See, I have this awful tendency to not believe strange and ridiculous tales of whoa.

HAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.


But if you want reports saying that Falun Gong is full of shit about what they are selling, here are a few:

And? So I suppose the oppression of Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientists is OK too? That's where your argument is potentially going. People have a right to believe bollocks. You certainly do.


Li is openly sexist, racist, homophobic, utterly uneducated, a black hearted liar, and a charlatan. He pretty much punches nearly everyone of my buttons; he profits from spreading ideology that directly allows encourages people to hurt themselves and their families.

Not at all like Maoism then.


They are absolutely allergic to dissent and have entire networks of propagandists spreading enormous fairy tales of abuse to gather monetary support from western politicians and ignorant white people.

Sounds a lot like how socialist dictatorships work.


Thanks for buying into his bullshit, I really can't blame you since the median ability to be objective or to think critically for youself doesn't seem to happen much on the internet.

Yeah, we really need to be denounced and sent off to the countryside to be beaten by Red Guards for being bourgeoise pigs. Innit.

Cullion
24th May 08, 10:35 PM
I don't get the impression that China is all that maoist nowadays. I think it's more like old-school free market capitalism with a thin veneer at the top of 'old guard' military officers and party members owning clunking, protected heavy industries and everybody else getting steadily richer doing what the fuck they want.

jvjim
24th May 08, 11:16 PM
Why the fuck do we (talking about Americans here) want to meddle in the affairs of a culture that's over 3000 years old? Let the Chinese Politburo create a dissident minority group, it'll be real useful in about 25-50 years when Chinese politics starts to liberalize (and we won't even have to send in any spooks [edit: government agents] to rile shit up.)

Truculent Sheep
25th May 08, 04:48 AM
I don't get the impression that China is all that maoist nowadays. I think it's more like old-school free market capitalism with a thin veneer at the top of 'old guard' military officers and party members owning clunking, protected heavy industries and everybody else getting steadily richer doing what the fuck they want.

I was pointing out the ironies of Sun Wukong's argument, given the history of the PRC itself. Also lulsworthy was China's adoption of 'anti-colonial' rhetoric early in its history, given how it wants to flood Tibet with Han, keep the Uighars in place and take Taiwan by force, or at least the threat of force, and exploit Africa without mercy. The 'One China' policy is an excellent cover for traditional Chinese imperial ambitions, after all.