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Riddeck
10th November 07, 02:12 AM
Ok. Now I know I talk a lot about different things, however I have a story, with some photos for you all to see, and hopefully discuss. A good friend of mine works for an elderly gentlemen who sells "Warmabilia". Antique guns, knives, swords, letters, anything really. He is always telling me stories of sweet things he sees and sells for this guy.

Well the other day he called me geeked as hell. (See, he and I of course have similar beliefs) The old man found this buy at a pretty popular 'flea market'. He traded a gun for this leather case, and the contents he really did not know, but the gun was a re-weld so he did not care about it.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2727/casezj0.th.jpg (http://img101.imageshack.us/my.php?image=casezj0.jpg)
This is the case that houses the rest of the items I am showing. The name on the box is the rightful owner (now deceased) by the name of Clarence H. Rivenburg. My friend looked him up, and he is apparently great grandfather/uncle to some 7 Rockefellers. I will have to find the link to the website he said he read on this guy.

Now you ask, what is this guy's importance? Who was he?

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2150/contentsrb2.th.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=contentsrb2.jpg)

Under the clothing items were these documents.
[/URL]

and...
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/8397/topyg5.th.jpg ([URL=http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=lifeel1.jpg]http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/230/lifeel1.th.jpg)
http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/2445/bottomdu5.th.jpg (http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bottomdu5.jpg)

The clothing. Well, was a VERY high ranking Freemason. As noted by the documents, he has lifetime membership, and the full protection of the Freemasons.

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/2473/photouv4.th.jpg (http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=photouv4.jpg)
That is him, obviously.

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/9941/sashbm9.th.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sashbm9.jpg)
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/4066/weartf2.th.jpg (http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=weartf2.jpg)

Close up on the Serpent.
http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/6905/serpentnp3.th.jpg (http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=serpentnp3.jpg)

You will note it is a snake on a cross. This is how the cross was portrayed for many of years. A common misconception happens when you hear people talk about the reptilians and the 'snake' men. The Serpent is merely symbolic and not literal. But that is for another thread, if I am to play by the rules.

My take on these photos, and this guy. He knew some shit. He was in 'the loop'...we are talking 33 or higher. Note all the fringes on the sash, and the apron. (The skull and crossbones on the apron are made of silver) Plus the possible link to the Rockefeller family.

WarPhalange
10th November 07, 02:15 AM
Hold on, when people speak of the Reptilians, some of them are actually serious?

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
10th November 07, 02:31 AM
Go to bed Riddeck.

Thinkchair
10th November 07, 02:38 AM
Ok. Now I know I talk a lot about different things, however I have a story, with some photos for you all to see, and hopefully discuss. A good friend of mine works for an elderly gentlemen who sells "Warmabilia". Antique guns, knives, swords, letters, anything really. He is always telling me stories of sweet things he sees and sells for this guy.

Well the other day he called me geeked as hell. (See, he and I of course have similar beliefs) The old man found this buy at a pretty popular 'flea market'. He traded a gun for this leather case, and the contents he really did not know, but the gun was a re-weld so he did not care about it.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2727/casezj0.th.jpg (http://http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2727/casezj0.th.jpg)
This is the case that houses the rest of the items I am showing. The name on the box is the rightful owner (now deceased) by the name of Clarence H. Rivenburg. My friend looked him up, and he is apparently great grandfather/uncle to some 7 Rockefellers. I will have to find the link to the website he said he read on this guy.

Now you ask, what is this guy's importance? Who was he?

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2150/contentsrb2.th.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=contentsrb2.jpg)

Under the clothing items were these documents.


and...
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/8397/topyg5.th.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=topyg5.jpg)
http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/2445/bottomdu5.th.jpg (http://img235.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bottomdu5.jpg)

The clothing. Well, was a VERY high ranking Freemason. As noted by the documents, he has lifetime membership, and the full protection of the Freemasons.

http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/2473/photouv4.th.jpg (http://http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/2473/photouv4.th.jpg)
That is him, obviously.

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/9941/sashbm9.th.jpg (http://http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/9941/sashbm9.th.jpg)
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/4066/weartf2.th.jpg (http://http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/4066/weartf2.th.jpg)

Close up on the Serpent.
http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/6905/serpentnp3.th.jpg (http://http://img235.imageshack.us/img235/6905/serpentnp3.th.jpg)

You will note it is a snake on a cross. This is how the cross was portrayed for many of years. A common misconception happens when you hear people talk about the reptilians and the 'snake' men. The Serpent is merely symbolic and not literal. But that is for another thread, if I am to play by the rules.

My take on these photos, and this guy. He knew some shit. He was in 'the loop'...we are talking 33 or higher. Note all the fringes on the sash, and the apron. (The skull and crossbones on the apron are made of silver) Plus the possible link to the Rockefeller family.

You realize just about anyone can join the freemasons these days. Their secrets are all public knowledge. Masonic symbols were just a way of conveying percieved universal truths through craft related imagery. There is nothing mysterious about the freemasons. They don't wield any kind of authority through some kind of shadow government. Your problem is that you lack the historical context of these movements. You have bought, verbatim, the mythic narrative of the conspiracy theorists, and never bothered to consider that the mainstream (or correct) narrative might be more valid. When I was in college we would always get someone like you in one of our history research couses who would stand up and give a presentation on "how the pyramids" were created by aliens. The teacher would usually politely suggest that the student actually read authors who are experts in the subject. This is most often where the problem resided. The so called 'experts' so often rolled out by conspiracy theorists are usually either not experts at all or an expert in an unrelated field using their PHd to boost their credibility.

jubei33
10th November 07, 04:38 AM
I like your pics. especially the sash.

Do the documents prove the shadow government exists?

Kein Haar
10th November 07, 07:50 AM
As a member of the Ancient Free and Accepted Masons myself, let me tell you something...

It's pretty ...lame.

The meetings go something like this:

Ok, we have $3000.00 to be dispersed per section blah blah blah of non-for-profit code such and such. Ideas for disbersement?

I suggest we split the $3000.00 evenly between the scholarship fund, the building maintenance fund, and the Illinois Masonic Home.

May I suggest 2/3 into the building fund. It's important to stay ahead of repairs, and we need to replace some cracked lentels.

I disagree. We can keep up with the building maintenence, but this is supposed to be a charitable organization. I suggest the full amount towards the retirement home and the scholarship fund. Oh, and throw in $500.00 for the recreation committee.

Well, allow me to read off the costs of last months building maintenance....

etc.

And before this there are minutes from last months' meeting which is basically the same crap.

And before you go through all the trouble, Riddeck, I'll go ahead and ask it myself: "BUT ARE YYOU A HIGH-RANKING FREEMASON THEY DON'T TELL YOU THE SECRETS TIL MUCH LAT2R!!"

Kein Haar
10th November 07, 07:55 AM
Well, was a VERY high ranking Freemason. As noted by the documents, he has lifetime membership, and the full protection of the Freemasons

Douche patrol,

There are 32 degrees. 1 thru 3 take a bit of time to memorize some useless crap. The other 29 is kind of a passive affair in which "truths are revealed" to you, and you pretty much knock 'em out in a day...at least for the Scottish Rite.

The 33rd degree is the honorary title.

Oddly enough, and I do mean oddly, Thinkchair is quite teh corr3ct on this.

"High ranking" the way you imply is nonsense.

Now, back in the day, in Europe, they went overboard into having degrees above 33 cuz every royal asshole wanted one named after him. But they cut that shit out now-a-days.

Riddeck
10th November 07, 08:43 AM
The problem with all of your arguments is that you simply do not know. None of us really do.

Cullion
10th November 07, 08:58 AM
Everything Keinhaar says about his experience is true. Some of the bigger European lodges (like the Grand Orient Lodge in London) do still have grandiose titled degrees like 'Royal Arch Mason' and 'Knight Templar'.

Yeah, Knights Templar still exist, but guess what they do? They dress up in cloaks and sashes for a bit of private ritualistic larping and raise money for charity, lespecially medical and accident related charities like the St. John's ambulance and the RNLI (a british charity that maintains sea-rescue lifeboats crewed by volunteers).

Riddeck, you should also remember that a lot of the US founding fathers were masons, and they went to war against an Empire to spread and secure ideals of liberty and equality before the law. I can understand you getting wary about the existence of an organisation which has a ritualistic and secretive aspect and some prominent members through history, but you shouldn't automatically assume they are bad guys.

However, Just to whet Riddeck's appetite I'm going to propose that he goodle 'P2 lodge Italy'. That's a genuine (isolated) example of masonry gone bad.

jubei33
10th November 07, 09:58 AM
The problem with all of your arguments is that you simply do not know. None of us really do.
Well, then whats your argument?

Riddeck
10th November 07, 10:20 AM
I cannot get too far at this morning time, as I am pressed and on a schedual. However, to touch on what Cullion said...yes, some of the founding fathers (George Washington for sure) were Freemasons, and for a number of years the Senate was dominated by some 60% of it's members being Masons.

Masonic symbolizing appears everywhere we look, and even in Government institutions. How else would the Great Seal appear on the back of a dollar bill without the influence of the Freemasons. To say this group of people (weather they are the whole of the masons, or a small group of 'elite' masons) had no influence on things that happened, seems a bit gullible. I want to make a note that the guy who founded the KKK was a high ranking Freemason. Entire cities, especially those of importance, are built in specific designs (City design is highly regarded among this group)

On the note of the guy who owned the belongings in this picture, he is blood relative (allegedly) of some 7 Rockefeller family members. The odds of events like this occuring, without any pre-design seems a bit funny, and almost childish to believe that certain events do not coincide with one another.

Not to mention the statement seen in thresholds of many Masonic lodges "Ordo Ab Chao" which of course is "Order from Chaos", which is the foothold of the Problem, Reaction, Solution that Governments have used to force populations into a certain design (Remember Hitler burned the Riechstaag, and using that event got the entire country behind him (even some US citizens!) and we all know the ensuing events.

Remember, I am not saying "all" Freemasons are bad. The public front seems to be a noble group of people, doing good things. But as someone mentioned in response to my 33 degree Mason comment...

Yes, it may be an honourary title, but the fact is, admitted by you, that 33 degree masons do exist, and quite frankly, none of us know anything about them.

This little history in a box may be the closest ANY of us would come to something like that.

jubei33
10th November 07, 10:53 AM
I cannot get too far at this morning time, as I am pressed and on a schedual. However, to touch on what Cullion said...yes, some of the founding fathers (George Washington for sure) were Freemasons, and for a number of years the Senate was dominated by some 60% of it's members being Masons.

Masonic symbolizing appears everywhere we look, and even in Government institutions. How else would the Great Seal appear on the back of a dollar bill without the influence of the Freemasons. To say this group of people (weather they are the whole of the masons, or a small group of 'elite' masons) had no influence on things that happened, seems a bit gullible. I want to make a note that the guy who founded the KKK was a high ranking Freemason. Entire cities, especially those of importance, are built in specific designs (City design is highly regarded among this group)


so what, is there a design flow problem with their cities? Is that really strange at all? I mean, mason. One of my friends in HS was a freemason, he had to take an exam on stone cutting and geometry to get in. In fact, they all did at his lodge.

Symbols tend to appear a lot of places, because they evoke emotional responses in people. They get reused in different contexts all the time. See the swastika for more info.



On the note of the guy who owned the belongings in this picture, he is blood relative (allegedly) of some 7 Rockefeller family members. The odds of events like this occuring, without any pre-design seems a bit funny, and almost childish to believe that certain events do not coincide with one another.

Are you saying the rockefellars are incestuous inbreeders!?


Remember, I am not saying "all" Freemasons are bad. The public front seems to be a noble group of people, doing good things. But as someone mentioned in response to my 33 degree Mason comment...

Yes, it may be an honourary title, but the fact is, admitted by you, that 33 degree masons do exist, and quite frankly, none of us know anything about them.

This little history in a box may be the closest ANY of us would come to something like that.

Yeah, so we might as well make shit up off the top of our heads, because we're curious. Nothing beats a good story, with a night cap at the end.




Not to mention the statement seen in thresholds of many Masonic lodges "Ordo Ab Chao" which of course is "Order from Chaos", which is the foothold of the Problem, Reaction, Solution that Governments have used to force populations into a certain design (Remember Hitler burned the Riechstaag, and using that event got the entire country behind him (even some US citizens!) and we all know the ensuing events.

Yeah, but you can say that for anything, especially if it doesn't have a context associated to it. Let's try: Its one in the morning, I'm tired, good night and have a nice weekend. ordo ab chao

Kein Haar
10th November 07, 11:23 AM
Yes, it may be an honourary title, but the fact is, admitted by you, that 33 degree masons do exist, and quite frankly, none of us know anything about them.

Yes, we know next to nothing about George Washington.

How'd I know this would happen?

HIGH RANKING ONLY MEMBMERS KNO!11

3rd degree is really the hardest one to get...if you want to call it that.

BUT THERE ARE 32!

Yeah, but you pretty much earn 'em in one big chunk.

BUT THERE'S A 33RD WE KNOW NOTHING ABOUT.

Actually we do, but....ok.

YA, THAT'S WHAT YOU TINKN

Kein Haar
10th November 07, 11:28 AM
Ya know what...I'll wave the white flag.

Masons aren't a bunch of historically romantic LARPING dorks who like to give away money to kids and old people here and there.

The over-wrought symbolism actually MEANS SOMETHING SINSISTER. THE LIMO DRIVER WITH THE LAZY EYE WHO'S MY WORSHIPFUL MASTER KNOWS THINGS I DON'T AND CONFERS WITH THE SHADOW BEINGS

Kein Haar
10th November 07, 11:48 AM
Sometimes I pop a boner thinking about the sheer magnitude of my invincibility due to my association for $50.00 per year.

Sure, I don't wield the power of the 33rd degree, but it certainly protects me.

I get hooked up for murder? I'm gonna get this guy on the horn.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1383/810822301_846b28a137.jpg

WarPhalange
10th November 07, 06:36 PM
"BUT ARE YYOU A HIGH-RANKING FREEMASON THEY DON'T TELL YOU THE SECRETS TIL MUCH LAT2R!!"

Scientology.

Shawarma
10th November 07, 08:01 PM
Keinhaar, what do you get out of your masonic membership?

Kein Haar
11th November 07, 10:29 AM
A nice nursing home for me and female members of my family when the time comes.

Some people like the cammeraderie and crap. My lodge is pretty dorky. Olde tymers not-with-standing.

I support their charitable causes.

It's a family legacy thing.

Oh, and newsletters.

Toby Christensen
11th November 07, 10:39 AM
My Granddad was a Mason (of which degree I don't know) my Mum still has his Masonic stuff somewhere and I have considered joining, but I've heard that it involves swearing allegiance to the British Crown. Is that true?

Also, My Granddad was Black Irish by extraction, so why join what appears to be a largely English movement?

Shawarma
11th November 07, 12:31 PM
Better make damn sure you get that nursing home and benefits. My grandfather was a mason and was thus promised a pension for his wife if he should die suddenly. After he got killed in the war, she didn't get any kind of help from them.
Maybe he didn't have t3h r34l masonry.

Sun Wukong
11th November 07, 03:52 PM
The problem with all of your arguments is that you simply do not know. None of us really do.
You haven't said anything with any of this. Ok, you have a sash and some funny clothes... so does the guy on my beefeater gin but that doesn't mean he's gonna do anything but watch me get drunk. Seriously, how is this any of this remotely evidence to anything? One would think you were going to suggest a conspiracy theory and give some kind of proof of something even a little strained, but what you have produced is some old clothing and a cool looking antique suitcase that would have been at home on an episode of Carnivale.


But none of it says or even remotely suggests anything? Are you going to post some more evidence later? Are you possibly over looking the possibility that the freemasons are just a group of civil minded volunteers and provide leadership in an attempt to help their community?

As for a freemason starting the KKK, you do realize that one man didn't create the Klan by themself right? It was founded by 6 educated men from marginally significant social station, all co-conspirators and co-authors, who in 1865 with the intention of resisting post civil war reconstruction and preservation of the percieved status quo in the south created the klan and populated it with the most disenfranchised white citizens they could find.

The only pre-requisite was hating the federal government and the republican party of 1865. So, John Wayne Gacey was a clown, does that mean that all clowns are more likely to be homocidal pederasts?

Some things in this life really are coincidences.

Zendetta
11th November 07, 04:52 PM
John Wayne Gacey was a clown, does that mean that all clowns are more likely to be homocidal pederasts?

Well, Clowns are scary.


Some things in this life really are coincidences.

Don't you know anything about ceremonial magic?

Sun Wukong
11th November 07, 04:56 PM
i know the vast majority of it in the US is based on crack pot bullshit cooked up by Aleister Crowley and his various minions.

jvjim
11th November 07, 05:11 PM
I have the real secret society (http://www.main.oa-bsa.org/) for you bitches. That's right, I'm a Brotherhood member, best check yo' self fo' you wreck yo' self.

Zendetta
11th November 07, 05:13 PM
Ruh Roh. Don't care for their style of sex magick though.

Shawarma
11th November 07, 05:43 PM
I'm a member of the Morag Tong, the Camarilla and Majestic 12. Bow down, puny humans.

socratic
11th November 07, 10:41 PM
I'm a member of the Morag Tong, the Camarilla and Majestic 12. Bow down, puny humans.

I'm a member of the Justified And Ancients of Mu Mu.

Oh, and the Kopyright Liberation Front.

Naszir
12th November 07, 12:11 AM
Mystic Knight of the Oingo Boingo here, with a plea to the OP. Please, just for a week or two, stop listening to Alex Jones. Stop quoting his dialectics rhetoric. Stay away from all the totally wrong misrepresentations of what is really going on with this society. A Freemason here has told you what happens in his openly secret, secret society, and you say he doesn't know what he's talking about.

There are plenty of sites out there that can give you the straight dope on the symbolism. There is a Fremasonry for Dummies book, for the love of peace! A non-mason who was/is an observant Jew, Christian or Muslim could explain the cross and serpent badge, as could anyone who knows who Emperor Constantine is. Please stop tilting at windmills.

Thank you.

Shawarma
12th November 07, 06:08 AM
Jack Chick tells you the truth about freemasons: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0093/0093_01.asp

Give my regards to Baphomet, Naszir.

NoMan
12th November 07, 06:18 AM
"Order from Chaos",

I can demystify the significance of that quote for you. It has nothing to do with how to take over the World as it does with a snake called the "Uroboros".

http://books.google.com/books?id=tD50hchXYB0C&pg=PA141&lpg=PA141&dq=order+from+chaos+uroboros&source=web&ots=J7SsgaRRc1&sig=vcXLtz8S_i-jtFBcZNs8CTkcOT4

Should any of you get involved in a mystic lodge, that's the type of talk they use all the time to explain things, a random connection between times and places held together by a symbol. In this case, it's mostly correct as far as mythologists agree, the uroboros meant order from chaos.

In occult significance, something like Worldly power is irrelevant. Occult wise, you're trying to manipulate Cosmic powers, achieve unity with the Godhead, or have Knowledge and Conversation with your Holy Guardian Angel. Achieving worldly power is achieving fulfilment of the "elemental" self, which you are required to sacrifice before second tier/fifth degree rank.

Were they trying to achieve Worldly power, they would do it the same way most people do. Earn wealth, join political parties, recruit large scale membership, influence politicians to pass favorable judgment for them, etc. Wearing funny clothing and reciting pages of script and Latin phrases really isn't the best path to achieving power in the world.

NSLightsOut
12th November 07, 08:21 AM
The only thing that "wearing funny clothing and reciting pages of script and Latin phrases" serve to accomplish is to form common social bonds amongst Masons and differentiate them from the rest of the population, albeit within the confines of their meetings - a fairly common sentiment in such societies.

I mean, really, if these things (a somewhat cliquish social network with rituals designed as exclusionary practice to those not of that self-selecting body) make an organisation bent upon world domination, I'm surprised that Riddeck hasn't mentioned the World Scouting Association or Zoroastrians as similarly devious and Machiavellian (in the popular definition rather than the beliefs of Niccolo Machiavelli)

Thus spake I - Priest of the Church of Xenu (Reformed)

My evil overlord will exterminate you all! (in an overly elaborate and unnecessary fashion that resembles horrible 1950s sci fi)

Naszir
12th November 07, 08:30 AM
Jack Chick tells you the truth about freemasons: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0093/0093_01.asp

Give my regards to Baphomet, Naszir.


Ix-nay on the Aphomet-bay, dude.

Matt Stone
12th November 07, 09:21 AM
The only thing that "wearing funny clothing and reciting pages of script and Latin phrases" serve to accomplish is to form common social bonds amongst Masons and differentiate them from the rest of the population, albeit within the confines of their meetings - a fairly common sentiment in such societies.

Um, does anyone else see that, beyond fraternal organizations, this same enlightened description of certain types of organizations fits? Can anyone say "churches, synagogues, mosques, and other 'houses' of non-existent beings?"


I mean, really, if these things (a somewhat cliquish social network with rituals designed as exclusionary practice to those not of that self-selecting body) make an organisation bent upon world domination, I'm surprised that Riddeck hasn't mentioned...

..."churches, synagogues, mosques, and other 'houses' of non-existent beings?"

Amazingly accurate generalized descriptions of exactly what most/all religions do... They hold meetings that are, if not outright secret or restricted, reserved for "members only." They often wear bizarre garb with symbolic meaning. They speak in a manner that is typical of, and unique to, their own group. They exclude others who are not "members" through word, deed, and thought, and occasionally (unlike Masons) take violent action against those outside their clique for no end of outlandish reasons.

Sounds about right, don't you think?

Naszir
12th November 07, 09:35 AM
Matt, take a look on Bullshido at the little girl jujutsu vs Marines for an example of the same thing. It isn't just religion or fraternal orgs. It is pretty much a human "us vs them" thing.

NSLightsOut
12th November 07, 09:35 AM
Um, does anyone else see that, beyond fraternal organizations, this same enlightened description of certain types of organizations fits? Can anyone say "churches, synagogues, mosques, and other 'houses' of non-existent beings?"


I did think of religious groups other than Zoroastrians, but the mental imagery of the Boy Scouts of Australia or America trying to take over the world had a kind of comedic piquancy that I felt took precedence.

Riddeck
12th November 07, 09:51 AM
I can demystify the significance of that quote for you. It has nothing to do with how to take over the World as it does with a snake called the "Uroboros".

http://books.google.com/books?id=tD50hchXYB0C&pg=PA141&lpg=PA141&dq=order+from+chaos+uroboros&source=web&ots=J7SsgaRRc1&sig=vcXLtz8S_i-jtFBcZNs8CTkcOT4

Should any of you get involved in a mystic lodge, that's the type of talk they use all the time to explain things, a random connection between times and places held together by a symbol. In this case, it's mostly correct as far as mythologists agree, the uroboros meant order from chaos.

In occult significance, something like Worldly power is irrelevant. Occult wise, you're trying to manipulate Cosmic powers, achieve unity with the Godhead, or have Knowledge and Conversation with your Holy Guardian Angel. Achieving worldly power is achieving fulfilment of the "elemental" self, which you are required to sacrifice before second tier/fifth degree rank.

Were they trying to achieve Worldly power, they would do it the same way most people do. Earn wealth, join political parties, recruit large scale membership, influence politicians to pass favorable judgment for them, etc. Wearing funny clothing and reciting pages of script and Latin phrases really isn't the best path to achieving power in the world.

The Uroboros does nothing to demystify 'ordo a chao'. The symbology involving the serpent (I want to make note that the Uroboros is seen in cultures from four corners of the earth, much like many other things (the story of Jesus, regurgitated over and over in religion after religion comes to mind) is much deeper and goes back much further than the Freemasons. Though they are all tied in. When you hear people talk about the Serpent-men, or any variation thereof, they are not necessarily talking about snake man in the sense of walking snakes,(though some say the original 'aliens' may have had snake like appearance), but the race of beings and the knowledge they possessed. The Atlantians, essentially. This opens up another laundry list of symbolical images and references in the bible, and other 'holy' books. Michael Tsarion goes pretty deep into this.

As for the Baphomet comic...brilliant, is all I can say. People so easily forget the 'satanic' history rooted in such organizations, and the architecture involved. (I know I posted the George Washington/Baphomet statue) Not to mention, even today we have elites and powerbrokers worshipping (if only in 'mock' rituals) ancient Gods like the owl -god Meloch, who demands child sacrifice. *Maybe more, who knows*

I just love how people refuse to believe that this type of shit can and does occur, even today. Modern religion is a sham, and quite frankly reviling this is much too heavy for people (imagine how people react when you tell em the Government was involved in 9/11 and there is a global elite fighting for world domination. They get livid. Imagine if you showed em the proof that not only was religion a total sham, but Jesus never even existed)

Naszir
12th November 07, 09:57 AM
The assertion that Jesus never existed seems a bit of a stretch. The assertions of his being a son of G_d notwithstanding, there seems to be a bit of evidence to say there was a religious leader in Palestine in the 1st Century c.e. who was known as Joshua. Please explain the evidence counter to his ever actually existing.

Shawarma
12th November 07, 10:40 AM
Are you talking about what Tacitus and Josephus said about the existence of Jayzus?

Naszir
12th November 07, 10:44 AM
I was more thinking about Yeshua ben Pantera, the guy who supposedly sneaked into the Most Holy Place and wrote down the pronunciation of the tetragrammaton and sewed it up in his thigh from the JT.

Kein Haar
12th November 07, 10:54 AM
Better make damn sure you get that nursing home and benefits. My grandfather was a mason and was thus promised a pension for his wife if he should die suddenly. After he got killed in the war, she didn't get any kind of help from them.
Maybe he didn't have t3h r34l masonry.

My grandmother is there as we speak.

Pension? Never heard of such a thing.

Shawarma
12th November 07, 10:56 AM
Pantera? Woah, that must have been one rockin' ancient Jew.

Shawarma
12th November 07, 10:58 AM
Not sure if it was "pension" as such, but the gist of it was that grandpa had been promised that his widow would be looked out for in case he died suddenly. She got no help whatsoever.

Bukow
12th November 07, 12:21 PM
Hold on, when people speak of the Reptilians, some of them are actually serious?

I guess you haven't seen/read much of David Icke.

heh.. enjoy.

Sun Wukong
12th November 07, 02:25 PM
Jack Chick tells you the truth about freemasons: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0093/0093_01.asp

Give my regards to Baphomet, Naszir.
That's a freaking awesome find. I love how jack chick summarily dismissed all muslims as satanists in one go. That's pretty much the most obscenely ridiculous thing I've ever seen him write to date. Which is alot actually because my sister in her misguided uber-christian youth used to pass those vile little things out and of course I read all of them.

Seriously, somebody should shoot jack chick in the face.

Naszir
12th November 07, 03:06 PM
I love how he uses Bill Schnoebelen as an authority. The guy once said in an interview that he saw Ithaqua the Wind Walker in northern Wisconsin. Yeah, that Ithaqua the Wind Walker from the August Derleth works of fiction.

Chick's reference for his anti-Masonic pamphlet was a guy with made up Masonic degrees as well as a made up esoteric pedigree. He is hilarious in that any interview seems to show a mentally ill old man being accepted as an expert by a legion of people who want to believe everything he says.

Here (http://www.masonicinfo.com/schnoebelen.htm) is Chick's specific materials expert.

Riddeck
12th November 07, 03:33 PM
The assertion that Jesus never existed seems a bit of a stretch. The assertions of his being a son of G_d notwithstanding, there seems to be a bit of evidence to say there was a religious leader in Palestine in the 1st Century c.e. who was known as Joshua. Please explain the evidence counter to his ever actually existing.

What I would bring to the table is the fact that many religious texts that are the foundation of modern religions are the same story told in chronologically different order. I would also explain how Jesus is a juxtaposition of similar characters in different stories (Born of a virgin, three kings at his birth, et cet.)

Then I would talk about how the idea of 'Son' worship is merely 'Sun' worship, and how Jesus was from (of) a place called Nazareth which if I am not mistaken is a reference to serpents (again).

Then I would explain how Jesus is actually representing the star "Sirius" and the three kings are Orion's belt. Then I would say the 'resurrection' in the three days sense is actually related to the Sun, and how on the winter solstice (In the northern hemisphere) the sun will rise to a low point in the sky, and for three days reach no higher.

The entire Bible, and any religious text for that matter is all a metaphor for other events, and other beings.

Then you call me crazy.

Thinkchair
12th November 07, 03:46 PM
What I would bring to the table is the fact that many religious texts that are the foundation of modern religions are the same story told in chronologically different order. I would also explain how Jesus is a juxtaposition of similar characters in different stories (Born of a virgin, three kings at his birth, et cet.)

Then I would talk about how the idea of 'Son' worship is merely 'Sun' worship, and how Jesus was from (of) a place called Nazareth which if I am not mistaken is a reference to serpents (again).

Then I would explain how Jesus is actually representing the star "Sirius" and the three kings are Orion's belt. Then I would say the 'resurrection' in the three days sense is actually related to the Sun, and how on the winter solstice (In the northern hemisphere) the sun will rise to a low point in the sky, and for three days reach no higher.

The entire Bible, and any religious text for that matter is all a metaphor for other events, and other beings.

Then you call me crazy.

First, nothing that you present here is evidence. You are noting thematic correlations, and repetitions of mythic motiffs.None of what you posted here even touches on whether the new testament was based on the life of a real person. Most credible biblical scholars and historians at least acknowledge that this is very likely. Was he the son of God? No. Did he actually walk on water? again no. But there probably was a historical jesus. Most of us recognize that stories and myths evolve over time. Or that elements from different tales get borrowed and re-used in different forms. You are using really bad textual and literary analysis to prove conspiracy theories are true because the bible may not be 100% original (you also keep dragged the serpents into the New Testament for some reason).

Riddeck
12th November 07, 04:02 PM
First, nothing that you present here is evidence. You are noting thematic correlations, and repetitions of mythic motiffs.None of what you posted here even touches on whether the new testament was based on the life of a real person. Most credible biblical scholars and historians at least acknowledge that this is very likely. Was he the son of God? No. Did he actually walk on water? again no. But there probably was a historical jesus. Most of us recognize that stories and myths evolve over time. Or that elements from different tales get borrowed and re-used in different forms. You are using really bad textual and literary analysis to prove conspiracy theories are true because the bible may not be 100% original (you also keep dragged the serpents into the New Testament for some reason).


Because serpent symbolizing is almost a foundation in the Bible. The serpent in the Garden of Eden. The Original Sin, et cet. Weather or not the "New Testament" is based on the life of a real person, is almost irrelevant, and I ask you this, IF Jesus was real. IF he claimed to be the Messiah, and if he was in fact, the Son of God, where is HIS testament? If he was trying to start a new world wide religion, would he not have his own memoirs?

And you are stating yourself that most of us (whoever us is) recognize that stories and myths evolve, and that elements of different tales get borrowed...then how can you claim ANY credibility to any of the stories, if they are clearly regurgitated into one another?

Also, what is this me proving any conspiracy theory to be true because the Bible is false? I am just stating that I have read enough, and seen enough, and have enough common sense to know bullshit when I see it.

Cullion
12th November 07, 04:07 PM
Sorry Riddeck, there are so many places to pick apart that stuff claimed in the movie Zeitgeist about the origin of Christianity it's hard to know where to begin.

OK..

First of all conflating 'Son' with 'Sun' (as in S(o/u)n worship) is nonsensical in context. The bible wasn't translated into English until centuries and centuries after Christianity was well established as the dominant religion of Europe. Until then, all existing copies of the New Testament and related apocrypha were written in either Aramaic, New Testament Greek, Coptic or Latin.

In none of those languages is the word for 'Sun' anything like the word for 'Son'.

Naszir
12th November 07, 04:14 PM
As Thinkchair stated, you didn't provide evidence. In fact it seems like you may have pulled some of your ideas from Zeitgeist or the like. I thought you might have gone with the agenda laden ideas of Ozman or something to that effect.

As for the ties to Nazareth being based on the word for snake or serpent, I think it might have more to do with either a hebraized version of a Canaanite word or come from n-tz-r sprig, sprout, offshoot or wicker. The fact that somehow you've managed to make snakes from this worries me as well as your overlooking plain and clear linguistic evidence to support an outlandish idea is problematic as well.
The only word I know for serpent or snake is n-ch-sh which linguistically is totally unconnected.

NoMan
12th November 07, 04:18 PM
The symbology involving the serpent ... is much deeper and goes back much further than the Freemasons.

No duh you cheese, that's what I said. The masons took "Order from Chaos" from the Uroborus, it's not very mystical, and it's widely known. You said that it was from some sort of conspiracy on how to overthrow the World, I said, "Nope, ancient religious icon used in various cultures for milleniums."


I would also explain how Jesus is a juxtaposition of similar characters in different stories (Born of a virgin, three kings at his birth, et cet.)

No (credible) expert doubts that Jesus was formed from an almagation of myths common to Near Eastern deities. However, the big sticking point is the "Q" stratum of documents which suggests a person was preaching in the fashion of Cynics, (not from more popular imagination, but there were many of the school who went around teaching and offering comfort to the poor), and who was later canonized into the Godhead. Another big supporting piece of evidence is the texts from Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John are earliest to latest, with the earliest depicting Jesus as a teacher, the last depicting Jesus as equal to God himself.

OTOH, the main dissenters to this are Earl Doherty and Richard Carrier. They say the Pauline gospels pre-date the Q stratum, and that Paul only speaks of Jesus as a figure in the Platonic World who was sacrificed in the lower spheres of heaven in the hands of the demon spirits, and was subsequently resurrected by God. Some of the earliest Christian apologists argue in this same way as well, (check out Dohert's site if you want to get into it, it's extensive), and said things like "it's absurd to think that we believe in a crucified God".

The style of argument you are presenting against Jesus was dismissed about 100 years ago, (techincally, about post-1920s when Theosophy faded out), but the arguments Dohety presents haven't been dealt with yet. Richard Carrier has an article weighing the evidence for Doherty's position.


Then I would talk about how the idea of 'Son' worship is merely 'Sun' worship, and how Jesus was from (of) a place called Nazareth which if I am not mistaken is a reference to serpents (again).

Then I would explain how Jesus is actually representing the star "Sirius" and the three kings are Orion's belt.

So is Jesus the Sun, or is Jesus Sirius? You can't have them both. You're not crazy, (on this), you're just half right. Your theories are similar to Acharya S or Freke and Gandy's, which have mostly been rejected as not being able to explain enough evidence. You should update yourself with some of Dr. Robert Price's writings, and Earl Doherty's if you want to make a serious case for the ahistorical nature of Jesus.

This is a pretty good summary of why mythicists like Acharya S have a problem in debates from a historian's standpoint.

http://rookthehistorian.blogspot.com/2007/10/problems-with-acharya-s-review-of-some.html

Actually, read his entire website carefully.

On Nazareth's existence:


According to several sources on the matter outside the standard consensus in the authorities, mainly Excavations in Nazareth, (vol. 1, 1969), and Excavations and Surveys in Israel, the evidence against Zindler is stacked. More evidence at the site (which was excavated in recent times by two skeptical Germans, Pfann and Voss Ė not monks but archaeologists) shows that there were in fact permanent buildings there at the time at least dating to the 1st century CE; a remain of a wall was excavated which was believed to belong to the synagogue talked of in Luke, which would have been altered later. There is also evidence of this is the discovery of the calcite column bases which were found at another structure Ė moved from a different location.

The bases are similar to those found at other locations in synagogues and roman structures of the time (those which existed prior to the mid-late first century - second century onward which were then made of marble). Zindler also ignores the probability of mud-thatch houses and structures which were common. Of this, one canít really be certain what other permanent buildings existed as there is actually relatively little of Nazareth that has been excavated to begin with (per Excavations and Surveys in Israel). So we really canít say what wasnít there since we only have a little of the site to go on.


There is simply no good reason to ignore the archaeology and assume that since two sources (Josephus and Origen) donít name the town explicitly this justifies the tactic to ignore the evidence we do have (The Gospels, even if second century documents. Would still undermine Zinderís claims), this is simply in my opinion somebody who is looking for holes and seeks to work out their own conclusions into the evidence. To me that isnít the nature of a modern historian. Perhaps one would claim Iím romanticizing historians or Iím also being naive, but it is my understanding that one should be as skeptical as possible concerning anything which contradicts an established consensus while remaining open-minded enough to accept the arguments if they stand on their own. But this is one case where an argument from silence is simply not good enough to assume the non-existence of the town.


Consider: The town had existed there, and had been there for two centuries prior to when Christ is said to have lived (if he in fact did exist). We may have no record from Josephus on Nazareth, but we also have no record of any town being at that spot from him either. If we had a mention in Josephus which stated a town of a different name at the Nazareth site, I might concede, but the fact that no reference to that town at all by Josephus is just more evidence of the areaís lack of interest to Josephus Ė it was only a small village of less than 500 people in which Josephus ignored scores of towns of similar size. Nazareth just wasnít that big on the chart of importance to him.

Origen (who omits a great deal more towns then Josephus) went to great lengths to prove the place existed where John baptized. Yet it seems odd he would then go about ignoring the glaring problem of the non-existence of Nazareth. Why would he go about looking for ways to prove the place where John baptized but ignore the non-existence of Jesusí birth? That makes no sense. This is more or less an apparatus of language. Rather, the absence of an established convention for transliterating Hebrew or Aramaic into Greek. Zindler is making a mountain out of a molehill.

Naszir
12th November 07, 04:21 PM
You also seem to be conflating two different things, namely the existence of Jesus as a real person and the idea of the utter veracity of the christian bible. I don't argue whether Jesus walked the Earth or not. In my eyes, there is enough extra-biblical support to establish that a rabbi named Joshua lived in the period and the cultural references in the christian bible are born out by other sources.

The claims of divinity notwithstanding, there is a large amount of supporting evidence to suggest he was a real man and not a code word for a star.

Riddeck
12th November 07, 04:22 PM
Sorry Riddeck, there are so many places to pick apart that stuff claimed in the movie Zeitgeist about the origin of Christianity it's hard to know where to begin.

OK..

First of all conflating 'Son' with 'Sun' (as in S(o/u)n worship) is nonsensical in context. The bible wasn't translated into English until centuries and centuries after Christianity was well established as the dominant religion of Europe. Until then, all existing copies of the New Testament and related apocrypha were written in either Aramaic, New Testament Greek, Coptic or Latin.

In none of those languages is the word for 'Sun' anything like the word for 'Son'.

Actually, the only thing I gathered from the 'Zeitgeist' movie is Sirius and Orion's Belt.

Most I propose comes from Michael Tsarion's own work, and work of others that he quotes/provides in his presentation. Which, if you were to take the 10 hours it requires to watch it all (just this presentation) you would learn a lot more then you are aware of.


As for the ties to Nazareth being based on the word for snake or serpent, I think it might have more to do with either a hebraized version of a Canaanite word or come from n-tz-r sprig, sprout, offshoot or wicker. The fact that somehow you've managed to make snakes from this worries me as well as your overlooking plain and clear linguistic evidence to support an outlandish idea is problematic as well.
The only word I know for serpent or snake is n-ch-sh which linguistically is totally unconnected.

I will look again about the word Nazareth. All knows, however, that no place ever existed by that name.

As for the serpent thing...where to even begin...

*Edit* I was wrong about Nazareth's meaning, and here is...

"The word derives from the Egyptian 'Nazir' meaning 'The Prince who was sent" and also from the word Nasir, meaning "Sirius", so it is Jesus of Na-sirius. Furthermore the word Carpenter comes from the word 'naggar' which means "Serpent-Priests"

Thinkchair
12th November 07, 04:53 PM
"The word derives from the Egyptian 'Nazir' meaning 'The Prince who was sent" and also from the word Nasir, meaning "Sirius", so it is Jesus of Na-sirius. Furthermore the word Carpenter comes from the word 'naggar' which means "Serpent-Priests"

As far as I know there is still a lot of debate over the roots and meaning of the name Nazareth. You seem to be cherry picking the conclusions that support your conpiracy theories. The more mainstream etymologists say it comes from the hebrew word Netzer(to sprout), Notserah (to watch over), Nazara (truth). As for it not existing that is also highly debatable. There is written evidence of its existence as early as the 3rd century.

Egyptians speak arabic not egyptian. As far as I know, Nazir and Nasir are modern arabic words, not ancient egyptian or coptic words. The root n-z-r means little, insignificant or trivial. The verb n-s-r means to be torn, to break, or snap. The Noun n-s-r means eagle or vulture.

Cullion
12th November 07, 04:59 PM
I haven't watched the movie yet, but looking him up it seems that Michael Tsarion believes that the religion of the Hebrews originated in ancient Ireland. I have to express extreme skepticism about anything else he has to say from this point on.

It sounds like the 19th Century idea of 'British Israelism',. Some Victorians (including members of the Royal family) did start believing that the peoples of the British Isles were descended from a lost tribe of Israel. The linguistic, archaeological and genealogical evidence they claimed was all very, very shakey. Their main reason for believing it was that the bible talked about Israelites as being chosen by God, and being bible-believers finding themselves in possession of a huge Empire of a scale never seen before they thought 'hey, it must be talking about us, we want to be special and chosen too.!'

White seperatist/supremacist groups with a religious bent that want to stick with a Christian flavour rather than going all the way to some hateful variant of Wicca or Odinism still believe this shit today (with the twist that they think that modern-day Jews aren't real Israelites).

NoMan
12th November 07, 05:02 PM
*Edit* I was wrong about Nazareth's meaning, and here is...

"The word derives from the Egyptian 'Nazir' meaning 'The Prince who was sent" and also from the word Nasir, meaning "Sirius", so it is Jesus of Na-sirius. Furthermore the word Carpenter comes from the word 'naggar' which means "Serpent-Priests"

You're still wrong about the meaning. The town itself has been excavated in two different studies: Excavations in Nazareth, (vol. 1, 1969), and Excavations and Surveys in Israel. Housed about 500 people, mostly mud hatches. 'The word "Carpenter" comes from "naggar"?' Dude, carpenter is a Latin word, "carpentarius", (Carriage maker). Or do you mean the Biblical word for "Carpenter", which is "tekton"? (Greek, from Mark 6:3?) It's not even close to an Egyptian word in either language. Egyptian was also pictosyllabic, which has a hard time translating into logosyllabic languages.

Or are you referring to the word "nazir" in Hebrew, which means "crown" or "consecrated"? (From Numbers 6:7)

Naszir
12th November 07, 05:06 PM
Nasir and Nazir are Arabic/NW Semitic not egyptian. Nasi is hebrew like Rabbi Yudah HaNasi. Sirius, the star, gets its name from the latinization of the greek word for blazing, not from the name I am so fond of.

Your arguments are like saying the word 'pimp' in English comes from the greek 'pempo' meaning I send out.

Sun Wukong
12th November 07, 05:23 PM
The entire Bible, and any religious text for that matter is all a metaphor for other events, and other beings.

Then you call me crazy.
Thats because you think those other 'beings' are space aliens, which, in actuality is marginally less ridiculous than the rote story of the bible being that ET's probably do exist by virtue of the size of the universe and the inherent probability of life on other worlds, but it's more than a safe bet they don't live anywhere close enough to ever travel to our solar system. The universe is just too fucking big to traverse even from one solar system to another in any reasonable amount of time (like less than a 100,000 years in even a relatively short distance of 5 light years.) Were we even able to travel at the speed of light we'd still be a millineum late and a dollar short of hoping to make first person contact by virtue of those same aforementioned probabilities.

I suggest you do some serious reading on the subject of astronomy dude. It's a personal hobby of mine and I love that shit for a great many reasons. The most significant is the power of observable fact to obliterate the education of popular culture which instructs our populace to disbelieve the real truths of existance.

Like it or not dude, all that conspiracy theory stuff really is a part of pop culture and it really is for people who prefer to believe in their own prejudices first. Science isn't just the truth, it is the purest search for the truth. It exists without prejudice, without ideation and without ethos save the quest for more knowledge.

Shawarma
12th November 07, 05:38 PM
In a fantastic coincidence, the word "Riddeck" means "Gayfag" in Urdu.

Coincidence? Or is it....

Cullion
12th November 07, 06:55 PM
I'm just watching Michael Tsarion's 'Fall of Atlantis' presentation.
Riddeck, this man is making money out of gullible people. His theories are on a par with the nuttiness found in the higher grades of Scientology.

He's talking about alien beings living in the hollow earth dude. And his sources are a mostly other fringe sci-fi/conspiracy authors. He makes an awful lot of laughably unscientific stuff up. E.g. He talks about our Sun being a black hole that aliens use for time travel, and he claims that there's an energy barrier preventing humans travelling beyond the orbit of the moon (but which machines can pass).

He talks about Dr. John Dee being the founder of MI5 (British Intelligence
umm... well he was a member of the Royal Court who knew a lot about the cryptography of the time and the Elizabethans did use spies), and then 30 seconds later he's talking about Elizabethan attempts at constructing spacecraft.

Riddeck, don't listen to this guy any more. He's either a nut, or a conman making money from the gullible, or both.

Kein Haar
12th November 07, 10:17 PM
I've heard that it involves swearing allegiance to the British Crown. Is that true?

Sure. Why not.

AAAhmed46
13th November 07, 01:13 AM
Hahaha i knew this would come forth one day on sociocide. Everythin forum has this discussion.

Riddeck
13th November 07, 01:35 AM
Nasir and Nazir are Arabic/NW Semitic not egyptian. Nasi is hebrew like Rabbi Yudah HaNasi. Sirius, the star, gets its name from the latinization of the greek word for blazing, not from the name I am so fond of.

Your arguments are like saying the word 'pimp' in English comes from the greek 'pempo' meaning I send out.

So if Sirius comes from the latin-ization of the greek word for blazing...where did the Greek word for blazing come from?

Besides, it is not really 'my' argument.

Cullion
13th November 07, 05:16 AM
So if Sirius comes from the latin-ization of the greek word for blazing...where did the Greek word for blazing come from?

Proto-Indo European probably. Different language group from Egyptian.

SpringHeeledJack
13th November 07, 07:48 AM
Thats because you think those other 'beings' are space aliens, which, in actuality is marginally less ridiculous than the rote story of the bible being that ET's probably do exist by virtue of the size of the universe and the inherent probability of life on other worlds, but it's more than a safe bet they don't live anywhere close enough to ever travel to our solar system. The universe is just too fucking big to traverse even from one solar system to another in any reasonable amount of time (like less than a 100,000 years in even a relatively short distance of 5 light years.) Were we even able to travel at the speed of light we'd still be a millineum late and a dollar short of hoping to make first person contact by virtue of those same aforementioned probabilities.

I suggest you do some serious reading on the subject of astronomy dude. It's a personal hobby of mine and I love that shit for a great many reasons. The most significant is the power of observable fact to obliterate the education of popular culture which instructs our populace to disbelieve the real truths of existance.

Like it or not dude, all that conspiracy theory stuff really is a part of pop culture and it really is for people who prefer to believe in their own prejudices first. Science isn't just the truth, it is the purest search for the truth. It exists without prejudice, without ideation and without ethos save the quest for more knowledge.Warp drives, worm holes, and tachyons.

Naszir
13th November 07, 07:59 AM
Proto-Indo European probably. Different language group from Egyptian.

And very different from Semitic languages (Akkadian, Ugaritic, Hebrew) and Sumerian, which is a totally different type of language.

Cullion
13th November 07, 08:49 AM
And very different from Semitic languages (Akkadian, Ugaritic, Hebrew) and Sumerian, which is a totally different type of language.

I thought Sumerian was a semitic language too?

Naszir
13th November 07, 09:40 AM
No sir. Some scholars hold it to be a language isolate. Akkadian and Babylonian are Semitics but Sumerian is associated due to Ugaritic, Akkadian, Babylonian and the like using their cunieform. Basically it looked like Sumerian but was spoken like a semitic language.

Sun Wukong
13th November 07, 11:32 AM
Warp drives, worm holes, and tachyons.

Tachyons, as they are modernly understood, actually support the idea that faster than light travel is doubly impossible.

There is absolutely no observable evidence to support the existance of wormholes, though wormholes are valid theoretical phenomenon according to general relativity. Given the size of the solar system, if wormholes exist they are undoubtedly extremely rare phenomenon (far more rare than black holes and life itself) and thus extremely improbable for our civilization to encounter given that the nearest black hole isn't even in our galaxy.

Warp drives only exist on Star Trek; pure science fiction.

Cullion
13th November 07, 12:00 PM
[quote]
Warp drives only exist on Star Trek; pure science fiction.

Umm.. not completely. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive

No, this one wouldn't work, but Alcubierre-like ideas are still studied by a few real physicists.

Or Heim theory:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heim_theory#Propulsion_physics

We're definitely talking about the scientific fringe, however, it's stuff studied and proposed in peer-reviewed journals, rather than uncredentialled Internet crank work.

ironlurker
13th November 07, 12:49 PM
Just some words on the "snake on the cross" symbol.

In the context of the Western esoteric tradition, the prevalance of this symbol is linked to the Judaic practice of gematria. In ancient Hebrew, letters have numerical values. Thus "El" generic word for God = aleph (letter A) plus lamed (letter l) =1 + 30 = 31.

NaChaSh is the word for "serpent" in the book of Genesis (Berashit), nun + chet + shin =358, which is also the number for MeShIaCh ("anointed (one)" aka messiah), mem + shin + yod +chet.

For a long time, mainly dfue to the opinions of esotericists, Hebrew gematria was thought to be the original in the context of the Western tradition. However, more and more, recent scholars have considered it to be influenced, if not derived, from the Greek practice of isopsephy (as the Greek-sounding name of gematria itself suggests).

In any case, for many strains of Jewish tradition gematria is an accepted process of exigesis- explaining the text. For example, the part in Genesis where Abraham meets three men (forget the exact wording) is the same as "these were Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael" giving the names of the three angelic personages.

Of course, beyond the logical pitfalls (Umberto Eco's "hermetic drift", the problems and issues with "Bible Code" type research), you have the possibility that bizarre, unpalatable, or contradictory results can arise from the practice.

"The Serpent of the garden of Eden"= "The Messiah" is one. In the context of strict monotheism, this is not a problem- Satan literally works for God, ie the book of Job. Incidentally, the term Satan itself may have arisen from Greek influence. In the context of Biblical Judaism, he is not a rebel or antagonistic deity, but the "accuser" = district attorney for God. Since God, according to the Western monotheist, is all-powerful and all-knowing, he obviously (must have) planned for the serpent to "tempt" Adam and Eve and thus to bring them the knowledge of good and evil.

Actually, according to the scholar I studied with, the snake in the story wasn't supposed to be "evil" or even an agent of Satan- the story is etiological (explaining why women have labor pains and snakes have no legs) rather than moral.

However, with the advent of Christianity and later Judaism, influenced by Persian dualism and an overly idealistic vision of God -perhaps from Hellenic philosophy- (all good, all the time, rather than the irascible fellow of the Hebrew Bible), the role of Satan became inflated and sensationalized.

In this light, and given the later interpretation of the Garden of Eden story as moral and theological rather than mythological and etiological, the gematric calculation of "the Serpent"= "the messiah" became ZOMG!!!.

For dualistic Gnostics, who grafted the philosophical concept of the demiurge (separate creator of the world vs. the ultimate God) onto dualistic conceptions of good and evil, this "discovery" could have revolutionary, and even antinomian (what's good is bad, what's bad is good, God is the Devil, the Devil is really God) implications.

Thus, for most of the past several centuries, the display of this symbol was a way to be really cool to your friends/audience, either by being radical (hey Jesus is the Serpent, which means the Old Testament God is the Devil!!!) or sophisticated (evil and tragedy are necessary for, even entailed by, the pursuit of knowledge).

It retains its evocative power due to the fact that it makes plain what is plain but unspoken- the phallic nature of cross symbolism.

There are other meanings which may or may not be germane to the conversation, in terms of relevance and objective historicity.

Naszir
13th November 07, 12:58 PM
K(Q)aballah/gematria notwithstanding I was referring to the story of the Bronze Serpent lifted up in the Wilderness to deliver the refugees from the burning serpents that were causing them to suffer. Which was the one that I was talking about when I brought up that observant people should recognize the symbol.

ironlurker
13th November 07, 01:14 PM
K(Q)aballah/gematria notwithstanding

Yeah, I guess next you'll say the world won't end in 1999!!! Oh wait, nm.


I was referring to the story of the Bronze Serpent lifted up in the Wilderness to deliver the refugees from the burning serpents that were causing them to suffer. Which was the one that I was talking about when I brought up that observant people should recognize the symbol.

Yes, Numbers 21:9, absolutely correct. This is the theme/passage to which Jesus Himself allegedly referred. You're right that this is the interpretation/reference which "observant" (ie well-versed with the normative tradition) people should understand. I was referring specifically to those for whom there was something "seekret" about the symbol: alchemists, magicians, Gnostics, kabbalists and others with whom some factions of early modern Freemasons self-identified.

Sun Wukong
13th November 07, 02:20 PM
Umm.. not completely. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcubierre_drive

No, this one wouldn't work, but Alcubierre-like ideas are still studied by a few real physicists.

Or Heim theory:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heim_theory#Propulsion_physics

We're definitely talking about the scientific fringe, however, it's stuff studied and proposed in peer-reviewed journals, rather than uncredentialled Internet crank work.
I was aware that these things were being discussed but as you said, it's on the fringes of science and has a very dark cloud of barriers that look impenetrable. I think they should definitely be discussed and however unlikely may pan out, but more likely the research put into them will yield secondary unintended discoveries as such endeavors seem likely to produce. Many of the greatest discoveries in history were made completely unintentionally as byproducts of 'failed' experimentation like discovering Pluto while looking for a never found dark gas giant suspected to exist or the discovery of left over cosmic radiation from the big bang.

SpringHeeledJack
13th November 07, 02:58 PM
I didn't necessarily mean to imply that those things are viable methods for time travel, but they are tossed around in theory. Plus they're just interesting to me, even though I understand little about them. (I too love astronomy, but my mathematically retarded brain forbids me from studying it any further)

And dude, I didn't hear about warp drives from Star Trek. I've never even watched that show.

Zendetta
13th November 07, 04:30 PM
"The Serpent of the garden of Eden"= "The Messiah"

MMM, THATS GOOD GNOSTICISM!!!

Great post.

ironlurker
13th November 07, 05:15 PM
MMM, THATS GOOD GNOSTICISM!!!

Great post.
See and raise you one hermetic drift*.



"Nothingness lies coiled in the heart of being -like a worm." - Jean-Paul Satre

ďPleasure only starts once the worm has got into the fruit, to become delightful happiness must be tainted with poison.Ē- Georges Bataille

"'soul animals': the snake -- more or less loosely identified with the worm -- the bird, or the mouse. It is their swift movements and their association with corpses which led primitive man to identify them as soul animals."- Max Wilhelm Wundt

Satan is Beelzebub בעל זבוב in his function as "Lord of the Air", the "Prince of the Flies" quite literally, and metaphorically -the inmates (in the Albigensian sense of imprisoned souls) have taken over the asylum, the orphaned children of God run a demented Kid Nation . As the dragon, serpent, נחש, snake, he is the maggot or worm in the corpse of the dead matter of creation. Yet his digestive function represents the re-incorporation of lifeless matter into spirit, and his crucifixion (shem yehoshuah ="name of Jesus"=666 by gematria) represents the liberation of the revivified elements into the cosmos, just as does the dispersal of Prometheus' flesh and blood by the punitive vulture of Jupiter.



*
Eco, on the other hand, expresses considerable alarm over this threat to the neatly limiting implications of systemicity. His response is to call this type of decoding "hermetic drift," which he depicts as an "interpretive habit...based on principles of universal analogy and sympathy, according to which every item of the furniture of the world is linked to every other element (or to many) of this sublunar world and to every element (or to many) of the superior world by means of similitudes or resemblances" (Limits 24). A system like this would hardly provide the organizing harmony usually posited by systemicists. To the contrary, the "main feature" of this sense of drift he insists, "seems to be the uncontrolled ability to shift from meaning to meaning, from similarity to similarity, from a connection to another" (26-27)
So, basically, you can do lots of fun things with symbols, words, and ideas, just as long as you remember they are just that- symbols, words, and ideas.

For groups like esoteric Freemasons and Gnostics, the value of such -as it is for every human being- lies in their social and cultural value. "I have the snake on a cross badge= I know seekret weird stuff, for rlz".

Again, there might be some value in such amusing exercises and hermaneutic-hermetic acrobatics for some, but madness (cults and/or organized religion) begins when you start worshipping the finger, think that only you have a finger, think that only you can point at the moon, or lose track of the moon altogether due to comparing notes and writing endless treatises on the historical secrets of the art of finger-pointing.

Zendetta
13th November 07, 08:33 PM
Out- out are the lights- out all!
And, over each quivering form,
The curtain, a funeral pall,
Comes down with the rush of a storm,
While the angels, all pallid and wan,
Uprising, unveiling, affirm
That the play is the tragedy, "Man,"
And its hero the Conqueror Worm.


dA wORM ownz joo!

Sun Wukong
13th November 07, 11:54 PM
I didn't necessarily mean to imply that those things are viable methods for time travel, but they are tossed around in theory. Plus they're just interesting to me, even though I understand little about them. (I too love astronomy, but my mathematically retarded brain forbids me from studying it any further)

And dude, I didn't hear about warp drives from Star Trek. I've never even watched that show.

That's the great thing about modern astronomy, you can pretty much just read the cliff notes of the talented men who've looked into this stuff and get a really clear picture. The only thing I've yet to wrap my mind around is thinking of time as something other than a constant ever present value; ie, dilation of time and time being a property of existance that hasn't always existed... i'm not so sure I can believe it frankly.