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View Full Version : Zimbabwe runs out of bread



Cullion
2nd October 07, 08:23 AM
How would you fix this ?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/zimbabwe/article/0,,2181086,00.html

Before anybody gets concerned about the articles stark comparison of the performance of black farmers vs. white farmers, I'm pretty sure no race-baiting was intended here. The Guardian is a very liberal-leaning brit newspaper and the real problem isn't 'black' vs. 'white' farmers, it's 'unemployed friends of the governing party' vs 'people with generations of experience running farms'.

I wish other more respected leaders in Africa would stop supporting Mugabe just because he has this 'look I really stuck it to the colonists' stance. He's hurting black people as much as he's hurting the white descendants of European colonists. I should also note that AIUI some of those white farmers aren't descended from people who took that land by force, they are people who arrived during the last few decades and paid for their land in open trade. They're all getting evicted regardless.

kismasher
2nd October 07, 08:27 AM
Zimbabwe is also a textbook example of the effects of price ceilings.

And, we see what happens when we have forced redistribution of means of production to a less efficient and knowledgeable proprietor.

But, It's fair and equal right? Right?

Zendetta
2nd October 07, 11:53 AM
I asked my Shona friend (the tribe from Zimbabwe that makes those lovely statues) Fadzo about Mugabe. The pained look on her face said it all.

Lu Tze
2nd October 07, 12:05 PM
Mugabe's economic policies are working great, everyone in Zimbabwe is a millionaire now. That's good right?

Cullion
2nd October 07, 12:14 PM
Mugabe's economic policies are working great, everyone in Zimbabwe is a millionaire now. That's good right?

Yes. Now all they need the right surveillance equipment and weaponry to catch the traitors who are stealing all the wheat.

TM
2nd October 07, 12:33 PM
That we have starvation on this planet makes me sick to my stomach and brings out all the worst feelings in me.

Zendetta
2nd October 07, 12:51 PM
Mugabe's economic policies are working great, everyone in Zimbabwe is a millionaire now. That's good right?

That kind of affluence means you never have to worry about running out of toilet paper.

kismasher
2nd October 07, 01:10 PM
Mugabe's economic policies are working great, everyone in Zimbabwe is a millionaire now. That's good right?

word. i just bought 400 million Zimbabo's for $0.38. they're constructing my beach house as we speak, of course, i'll never be able to visit but i'm sure i'll get postcards and such.

Cullion
2nd October 07, 01:16 PM
I almost feel sorry for the dumb bastard for being too stupid to understand why you can't get rich by just printing more money.

He made it illegal to put up prices recently. That'll fucking show them.

kismasher
2nd October 07, 01:26 PM
Zimbabwe is also a textbook example of the effects of price ceilings.




god damn, you'd think this guy might know something about economic policy and its ramifications. too bad he's too busy (doesn't care enough) to actually post worthwhile stuff.

Toby Christensen
6th October 07, 04:17 PM
Not to mention he refers to whites as "pinknoses".

I remember seeing a picture of a beautiful white girl from Zimbabwe and I often wonder what's become of her.

I fear the worst.

krazy kaju
6th October 07, 05:26 PM
Not to mention he refers to whites as "pinknoses".

I remember seeing a picture of a beautiful white girl from Zimbabwe and I often wonder what's become of her.

I fear the worst.

buttsecks?

Cullion
6th October 07, 05:34 PM
Not to mention he refers to whites as "pinknoses".

I remember seeing a picture of a beautiful white girl from Zimbabwe and I often wonder what's become of her.

I fear the worst.

There's an excellent chance that she's working in a small store in the UK now.
In the least few years I've noticed a substantial number of former 'white africans' coming here to run small local businesses as a way out.

Knave
6th October 07, 05:40 PM
Greetings.


I am painfully aware of the widespread theft of stock, farm produce, irrigation equipment and the general vandalism of infrastructure by our new farmers," he said.

I will soooooooooo +rep the first person that photoshops the Katrina looter guy stealing a bucket full of produce and irrigation equipment.

McKickboxer
8th October 07, 02:10 PM
There's an excellent chance that she's working in a small store in the UK now.
In the least few years I've noticed a substantial number of former 'white africans' coming here to run small local businesses as a way out.


No I think you will find they all work in my office in London. Well at least 10,000 of them.

Always remember the best way to upset a white Zimbabwean (well outside of stealing his farm of course) is to mistake the accent for a South African one.. similar to the whole NZ/Aus thing; where they actually think they sound different (we all know they don't)...

Looking at the article one thing that surprised me was the comment by Rugare Gumbo, the minister; he is my wife's uncle, and I have met him on many occasions in Zim. Admiting the new farmers have got it wrong is not really the party line in the past; perhaps it is a small signal things are changing inside ZANUpf (The ruling party).

socratic
15th October 07, 04:10 AM
Seriously, is there a place in Africa that isn't hell?

Cullion
15th October 07, 04:45 AM
Seriously, is there a place in Africa that isn't hell?

Yah. I've heard Ghana is doing well. They've have had years of steady improvement in living standards whilst avoiding wars or nutty dictatorships. South Africa is getting better or worse depending on who you listen to. Kenya sounds OK. Ghaddafi sounds like he's chilling out and trying to avoid confrontations with the west, so maybe Libya will do better. Morocco is a popular tourist destination, as is Egypt (although it's a bit more dangerous for western tourists of late).

Sun Wukong
15th October 07, 05:45 AM
this sounds like a job for US subsidied wheat growers if you ask me. Put some of that wheat we have over here rotting in grain silos to work to save lives. Alot of americans are totally clueless to the power of our natural resources. We took the most fertile section of North America, can we please get to work doing something with it?

Cullion
15th October 07, 06:15 AM
Yah, what the Zimbabwean people need is for american tax-dollars to dump free food on them. That'll put their country back in order without creating a dependency culture.

Sun Wukong
15th October 07, 06:21 AM
Dude, it'll put food in their mouths.


I'd rather give excess food away than watch people starve. People can grow new crops, but you can't wait until next year to eat. their system is screwed, and needs to be fixed obviously, I'd just rather they work out the problem with a full stomach.

Cullion
15th October 07, 07:03 AM
Giving them free food will keep Mugabe in power. They're never going to step out of the shit they've dropped themselves into until they stop treating farms as private fiefdoms you get for being a buddy of the dictator, and then allow to fall apart because you're too feckless and stupid to run them properly.

Sun Wukong
15th October 07, 07:05 AM
Even if we don't send them food, mugabe will stay in power.

Cullion
15th October 07, 07:24 AM
Even if we don't send them food, mugabe will stay in power.

No he won't. They'll get too hungry and bump him off.

Sun Wukong
15th October 07, 07:33 AM
Or they'll become yet another feeble hot-bed of turmoil and eventually devolve into one giant killing field.

McKickboxer
15th October 07, 07:40 AM
Even if we don't send them food, mugabe will stay in power.

This is sadly true; the ruling party have almost total control of the army and police; which linked with the neighbouring countries reluctance to stand up against Mugabe, means any sort of uprising has little chance of success. The CIO (Secret Police) are everywhere including being undercover elements in the opposition MDC.

One neighbour that could help is South Africa, but they do nothing to deal with the misrule and actively prop up the regime and provide the power supplies and fuel that keep the place running (well for the few in the ruling elite anyway).

Without being too clichéd, it is a working vision of Orwell's 1984, with the party in total control. I can't see how things will ever change there.

Cullion
15th October 07, 07:46 AM
The secret police and army will revolt when they get hungry enough.

Sun Wukong
15th October 07, 07:52 AM
man the secret police and army aren't going to starve to death. the poor are, that's how these feeble dictatorships thrive.

Holy shit man, look at north korea? Kim Jong Il has huge pot belly and his kids were caught at Disney in japan with tens of thousands of US dollars in their pockets. These guys pay and feed their own soldiers. You want to eat? Join the military.

If we don't send food, nothing is going to change there. After thinking about it, it may be a bad idea to send food because mugabe would probably just seize it and sell it off outside the country for huge profits anyway.

South Africa has pretty much done nothing after apartheid ended. They just traded in one mode of opressive government for another shitty government that lines their own pockets while doing almost nothing to help their people. Africa is so fucked man. I will never step foot in that continent.

McKickboxer
15th October 07, 07:59 AM
man the secret police and army aren't going to starve to death. the poor are, that's how these feeble dictatorships thrive.

Holy shit man, look at north korea? Kim Jong Il has huge pot belly and his kids were caught at Disney in japan with tens of thousands of US dollars in their pockets. These guys pay and feed their own soldiers. You want to eat? Join the military.

.

Sadly this is true; the police and army are at food distribution centres ensuring only those 'on message' get the food.

http://www.zimonline.co.za/Article.aspx?ArticleId=2091

Cullion
15th October 07, 08:43 AM
South Africa has pretty much done nothing after apartheid ended. They just traded in one mode of opressive government for another shitty government that lines their own pockets while doing almost nothing to help their people. Africa is so fucked man. I will never step foot in that continent.

I hear mixed stories about South Africa. It's certainly doesn't sound quite like the upstanding rainbow democracy everybody was hoping for, but it doesn't sound like a tyranny either. The impression I get from afar is a reasonably prosperous democracy with quite a bit of corruption and nepotism. A recent report (can't remember where from, I think it was a UN body) concluded that the best and most equitable democracies in Africa tended to be the smaller states, particularly the Island nations.

A few people I know have had great holidays in Cape Verde, a small island nation with a functioning multi-party democracy. Portuguese is the main language, good seafood.

Kein Haar
15th October 07, 09:00 AM
Pretty much the whole continent would be better off as an [inter]national park.

Their wildlife is so much nicer.

Let AIDS and machetes do their thang. Maybe the little hunter-gatherer dudes will figure something out and get by. That's fine. They will have earned it. They can stay.

Until then no soup for you!

But by that time, they shouldn't be needing it.

Anyone read on Yahoo how the Congo rebels seized control of Virunga national park? Drove out the park rangers and staff. Pretty much the last place on earth with mountain gorillas?

That should end well.

This picture is from July, and represents like, what....10% of the whole population:

http://whc.unesco.org/uploads/news/images/full/news_367.jpg

What a hipppy bitch I am. That's why I stopped watching nature shows years ago. Too depressing.

Fuck Africa. Useless fucks.

Zendetta
15th October 07, 03:07 PM
Fuck Africa.

Somebody beat you to it.

Kein Haar
15th October 07, 03:08 PM
I mean now, faster, and more completely.

Zendetta
15th October 07, 03:11 PM
Use an industrial strength condom then - the local girls have the cooties.

Kein Haar
15th October 07, 03:12 PM
I was thinking of unleashing the Green Goblin to pumpkin bomb the hell out of them (if he'd be inclined).

Zendetta
15th October 07, 03:15 PM
Of course he'd be inclined - bombing brown folks is the whole purpose of the Military Industrial Complex!!!

AND he's GREEN... green like MUNNY.

Kein Haar
15th October 07, 03:16 PM
Look, douche, I'm looking out for the REAL victims in all this. You can't get any more helpless or entitled than a gazelle.

Zendetta
15th October 07, 04:07 PM
Psht. Enabler. What is the Gazelle doing to take responsiblity for its situation?

Cullion
15th October 07, 04:30 PM
This isn't funny. These people are being slowly murdered by somebody they're deluded into think is some kind of heroic champion.

Zendetta
15th October 07, 04:33 PM
Yeah. And that kind of takes the starch out of the whole "let 'em starve until they decide to change their fucked up little country" strategy.

Cullion
15th October 07, 04:44 PM
Yeah. And that kind of takes the starch out of the whole "let 'em starve until they decide to change their fucked up little country" strategy.

No, not at all. I'm just a realist rather than a bleeding-heart 'treat them like children' idiot.

Zendetta
15th October 07, 04:53 PM
I didn't mean "you", but OK.

Kein Haar
16th October 07, 09:55 AM
This isn't funny. These people are being slowly murdered by somebody they're deluded into think is some kind of heroic champion.

It's kinda like the U.K. in that I sit back and make predictions on what they'll try to ban next...or at least openly suggest and have taken somewhat seriously. Turns out I routinely underestimate.

It's "funny" from a human nature perspective.

In this case, the game is how possibly "tin-pot" can an African dictator possibly get? Turns out I routinely underestimate.

Zendetta
16th October 07, 11:05 AM
LOL. Yeah, Black Humor is probably the only reasonable response to the Terror of the Situation.

socratic
16th October 07, 07:46 PM
Yah. I've heard Ghana is doing well. They've have had years of steady improvement in living standards whilst avoiding wars or nutty dictatorships. South Africa is getting better or worse depending on who you listen to. Kenya sounds OK. Ghaddafi sounds like he's chilling out and trying to avoid confrontations with the west, so maybe Libya will do better. Morocco is a popular tourist destination, as is Egypt (although it's a bit more dangerous for western tourists of late).
Although Egypt is/was a big source of Islamic terrorism, I thought.

Ghana's nice though. I occasionally eat 'authentic' Ghanaian food. It's rather nice.

I was of the impression South Africa was one of those places were you get multiple people to surround you at the ATM to discourage Mr Whitie being shot and robbed?

I'd imagine the most feasible way to try and encourage any form of 'growing' out of their (African's) situation would be somewhat like the 'microfinance' policy many charities are taking. You loan them the means to do something, then the expectation of having to pay it back encourages action. People apparently respond in mixed manners to handouts. By this I don't mean big nations raping Africa through debt, I mean, apply this is principle in a slightly more benign manner and on probably on a community-scale.

So, if we were to apply that to Zimbabwe, I would imagine it would be something like this: Western, or other such nations with lotsa surplus, provide for food and means of production for agriculture on the grounds that the helped have to pay it back some day (even with a very small interest rate, if one prefers I suppose) to encourage them to use it. Of course, this could very easily fall down if the dictator decides he doesn't like it...

Olorin
16th October 07, 08:44 PM
I am disappointed that our new farmers have proved to be failures since the start of the land reform programme in 2000. In spite of all the support government has been pouring into the agricultural sector, productivity and under-utilisation of land remain issues of concern."

The government's admission that the land redistribution has failed to deliver the promised boost to food production coincides with a deadline for the last white farmers to vacate their land. The farms were nationalised last year and the handover to the state was set for today.

Any farmer remaining on their former land faces prosecution for trespassing on state property. About 50 farmers have already been summonsed by the courts.

Does anyone know what exactly was involved in the Land reform Program of 2000? I am assuming it was land redistribution from productive farms to people who do not know how to run farms or run them inefficiently. I guess it was not as extreme as the Soviet collectivization of agriculture during the first Five Year Plan but this kind of man made famine always seems to occur when governments try this.

On a side note has everyone seen the movie "Last King od Scotland?" This story reminds me of that movie.


I'm pretty sure no race-baiting was intended here. The Guardian is a very liberal-leaning brit newspaper

Off Topic Alert!

This is one of my pet peeves. Liberals/Progressives/Socialists/Etc, can also be racists, sexists, and/or homophobic.

.

Cullion
17th October 07, 08:19 AM
So, if we were to apply that to Zimbabwe, I would imagine it would be something like this: Western, or other such nations with lotsa surplus, provide for food and means of production for agriculture on the grounds that the helped have to pay it back some day (even with a very small interest rate, if one prefers I suppose) to encourage them to use it. Of course, this could very easily fall down if the dictator decides he doesn't like it...

In the case of Mugabe's Zimbabwe he would simply pay you back in freshly printed money which was worth 1000% less than when you loaned it to him and laugh over a beer. Zimbabwe used to be the grain-basket of Africa and huge food exporter. The reason it isn't any more is because the diligent and responsible farmers have been thrown off their property because they are white by lazy goons with ties to the dictatorship who then have neither the knowledge nor work ethic to actually do any farming. Farm efficiency has steadily been decreasing after the land grabd as these incompetent clowns try to make more money than their neighbours by vandalising or stealing their equipment. I shit you not.

The solution is to let their own people get so pissed off with the situation that they overthrow them. Africans aren't children. Let them fix their own problems.

Kein Haar
17th October 07, 08:47 AM
Some Africans are children. Namely, the children in Africa.

Cullion
17th October 07, 09:16 AM
Some Africans are children. Namely, the children in Africa.

That's true. But I still don't think offering Zimbabwe cheap food whilst Mugabe is in power will be much help. This country used to be self-sufficient.

Kein Haar
17th October 07, 10:44 AM
Most of the self-sufficient (if not globally competitive) nations/states originally got started by the generous charity aid from more wealthy countries.

Cullion
17th October 07, 10:54 AM
Most of the self-sufficient (if not globally competitive) nations/states originally got started by the generous charity aid from more wealthy countries.

No they didn't.

Kein Haar
17th October 07, 10:56 AM
You're going to give Zendetta nightmares. Now stop.

Zendetta
17th October 07, 03:06 PM
Listen, White Devil: I only have to go a few blocks to see the Nightmare that European Colonialism created for the Noble African.

When will people like you wake up from your dreaming and see whats really going on with the exploited etc etc etc?

Shawarma
17th October 07, 03:31 PM
Ask your local Noble African if he'd like to live in San Francisco or Eritrea.

fes_fsa
17th October 07, 03:44 PM
tell them to stop rapping and start baking.

Zendetta
17th October 07, 04:22 PM
Ask your local Noble African if he'd like to live in San Francisco or Eritrea.

You may (or may not) know this, but Berkeley (nearby) has a HUGE Ethiopian/ Eritrean population. I'd imagine that they'd rather have a safe, prosperous life in their homeland, but....


tell them to stop rapping and start baking.

Funny you should mention this. Do you know of the Black Muslem Bakery? They made the news for some pretty gangster-y shit lateley.

Phrost
17th October 07, 04:31 PM
The only way to fix Africa is to educate the fuck out of it.

Build a thousand boarding schools in communities guarded to the teeth, and produce a few generations of capable, superstition-free, and motivated individuals; who've spent birth-18 years learning how to build infrastructure, develop and manage sustainable agriculture, and believe absolutely in the rule of law.

NoMan
17th October 07, 05:17 PM
The only way to fix Africa is to educate the fuck out of it.

Build a thousand boarding schools in communities guarded to the teeth, and produce a few generations of capable, superstition-free, and motivated individuals; who've spent birth-18 years learning how to build infrastructure, develop and manage sustainable agriculture, and believe absolutely in the rule of law.

They'd just set themselves up as a new ruling elite and Africa wouldn't change much overall. Small groups of people controlling information has been the hallmark of most dictatorships and social elites, and Africa is already bad, (except theirs aren't actually smart).

The biggest problems in Africa that I've seen stem from tribalism and warfare over what ethnic group, tribe, or religious affiliation people belong to. For them, the concept of democracy is more akin to mobocracy, the capability of a certain group to dominate.

It creates problems everywhere. Investors won't come into an area because of the incessent warfare, depriving them of their relative advantage in human labor. Not to mention many corporations in the U.S. and elsewhere receive subsidized agriculture products that hurt them. Some of the systems need complete overhaul of the laws there, as they require ridiculous long waits to get a permit for a new business, and most people acquire things either on black markets or via informal family networks. This gives them no capital for funding their own businesses. Things get passed along through a network of cronyism and loyalty to strong men and various criminal rackets. And each link in the chain creates a mutually reinforcing crap chain.


The farms were nationalised last year and the handover to the state was set for today.

NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's the biggest loser idea in all economics, (technically politics, since no economist would endorse that position).


Zimbabwe's economic problems are likely to be compounded by a law passed last week that compels many publicly owned companies, including foreign firms, to sell a majority of their equity to black Zimbabweans.

Critics say the legislation amounts to expropriation because it effectively forces the companies to hand over half of their value by taxing them to raise the money to "buy" the 51% stake for black investors approved by the government.

See above.


Yah, what the Zimbabwean people need is for american tax-dollars to dump free food on them.

Yes, economics does tell you that painful things like bankruptcy are nature's way of saying,' Don't do dumb economic things", and bailing countries helps this. But, I don't think this guy will change even if everyone starves. Saddam didn't change when the sanctions led to starvation, did he suffer for it? We didn't starve the Cubans into overthrowing Castro either. And Kim Jong Il certainly isn't starving either. Sadly, the poor suffer for the dumb decisions of their leaders.

If this guy is at least as smart as Lenin, he'll invite the former owners back. Lenin said that management was easy and kicked out most of the managers in Russia. Things went south. He had to try to convince them to come back. Same thing happened whenever the Jews got kicked out of various places, business went to crap.

On the topic of decent places in Africa, what about Botswana? They have a deadly AIDS problem, but their country is supposed to be pretty stable and have a steadily increasing GDP.

Sun Wukong
17th October 07, 05:56 PM
yeah, the words "deadly AIDS problem" is enough to keep me far away from there. If i get hurt, I want to be able to have a transfusion with a relatively high chance I won't catch my death.