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Shawarma
17th September 07, 01:44 PM
From CNN:

Blackwater security firm banned from IraqStory Highlights
Condoleezza Rice set to call Iraqi prime minister to discuss gunbattle

"We are taking it very seriously," State Department official says

Iraq blames U.S. security firm for Sunday gunfight that killed eight civilians

Incident began when Western-style convoy came under fire in Baghdad

Next Article in World »




BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Iraq's Interior Ministry has revoked the license of Blackwater USA, an American security firm whose contractors are blamed for a Sunday gunbattle in Baghdad that left eight civilians dead. The U.S. State Department said it plans to investigate what it calls a "terrible incident."

1 of 2 In addition to the fatalities, 14 people were wounded, most of them civilians, an Iraqi official said.

Sunday's firefight took place near Nusoor Square, an area that straddles the predominantly Sunni Arab neighborhoods of Mansour and Yarmouk.

The ministry said the incident began around midday, when a convoy of sport utility vehicles came under fire from unidentified gunmen in the square and the men in the SUVs, described by witnesses as Westerners, returned fire.

One witness told The Associated Press that he heard an explosion before the gunfire began.

"We saw a convoy of SUVs passing in the street nearby," Hussein Abdul-Abbas, owner of a mobile phone store in the area, told the AP. "One minute later, we heard the sound of a bomb explosion followed by gunfire that lasted for 20 minutes between gunmen and the convoy people who were foreigners and dressed in civilian clothes. Everybody in the street started to flee immediately."

A team from another security company passed through the area a few minutes afterward.

"Our people saw a couple of cars destroyed," Carter Andress, CEO of American-Iraqi Solutions Groups, told CNN on Monday. "Dead bodies, wounded people being evacuated. The U.S. military had moved in and secured the area. It was not a good scene."

An Interior Ministry spokesman, Brig. Gen. Abdul Kareem Khalaf, said, "We have revoked Blackwater's license to operate in Iraq. As of now they are not allowed to operate anywhere in the Republic of Iraq. The investigation is ongoing, and all those responsible for Sunday's killing will be referred to Iraqi justice."

The Diplomatic Security Service has launched an official investigation, a review that will be supported by the Multi-National Forces-Iraq, he said.

McCormack said from early reports it appears to be a "terrible incident" with innocent loss of lives.

"The secretary wants to make sure we do everything we possibly can to avoid innocent loss of life," he said.

McCormack said that while the United States tries to avoid innocent casualties, "we are fighting people who don't play by any rules" and have no problem killing innocent civilians.

There has been no official notice from the Iraqi government on revoking Blackwater's license, McCormack said, so he couldn't confirm it and declined to speculate on how it would affect protection of U.S. personnel.

A spokesman for the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad confirmed a State Department convoy was in the area.

"We are taking it very seriously. We are cooperating with the Iraqi government on several different levels and will continue this cooperation with Iraqi officials," the embassy official said.

Founded in 1997 and based in Moyock, North Carolina, Blackwater is one of many security firms contracted by the U.S. government during the Iraq war. An estimated 25,000-plus employees of private security firms are working in Iraq, guarding diplomats, reconstruction workers and government officials. As many as 200 are believed to have been killed on the job, according to U.S. congressional reports.

Some Blackwater personnel died in a grisly incident in Iraq more than three years ago that sparked shock and outrage in the United States.

Four Americans working as private security personnel for Blackwater, all of whom were military veterans, were ambushed, killed and mutilated in March 2004 in Falluja, west of Baghdad.

People close to the company estimate it has lost about 30 employees during the war.

Iraqi authorities have issued previous complaints about shootings by private military contractors, according to a July report from the Congressional Research Service.

"Most recently, a news article discussing an incident in which a Blackwater guard shot dead an Iraqi driver in May 2007 quoted an Iraqi official's statement that the Iraqi Interior Ministry had received four previous complaints of shootings involving Blackwater employees," the congressional service report said.

The Congressional Research Service report cited other concerns, such as "the apparent lack of a practical means to hold contractors accountable under U.S. law for abuses and other transgressions and the possibility that they could be prosecuted by foreign courts."

The reported added, "Iraqi courts do not have jurisdiction to prosecute contractors without the permission of the relevant member country of the Multi-National Forces in Iraq."

Contractors fall under Justice Department and FBI jurisdiction for alleged crimes, said a Pentagon official, who confirmed the accuracy of the congressional report.

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/09/17/iraq.main/index.html


Good news. That company has been PR poison for the US ever since they arrived in Iraq. But who's gonna fill in for them now and do their jobs?

kismasher
17th September 07, 02:20 PM
wonder how much of their $800m no compete contract they'll get to keep

SFGOON
17th September 07, 02:49 PM
HA HA HA!!! Serves those greasy faggots right!! Now who'll sit inside the wire in Iraq and tan, lift weights, and take steroids?

Sun Wukong
17th September 07, 02:53 PM
HA HA HA!!! Serves those greasy faggots right!! Now who'll sit inside the wire in Iraq and tan, lift weights, and take steroids?

uh... Airmen?

Dagon Akujin
17th September 07, 03:56 PM
Ya know, not once in that entire article does the word MERCENARY appear.

That's so odd.

Dagon

Zendetta
17th September 07, 04:17 PM
Its an ugly word, in that it implies one would Kill for Munny.

Cullion
17th September 07, 04:19 PM
Its an ugly word, in that it implies one would Kill for Munny.

Only crazies kill for free. Soldiers get paid.

SgtDutch
17th September 07, 04:19 PM
Ya know, not once in that entire article does the word MERCENARY appear.

That's so odd.

Dagon
Military Contractor = Mercenary
Didn't you get the memo?
...... the terminology of "Private Military Contractors" makes me want to bite someones face! If you are gonna be a Mercenary at least have the balls to call yourself one.... sorry what were we talking about?

Zendetta
17th September 07, 04:32 PM
Only crazies kill for free. Soldiers get paid.

Yeah, but they kill for Freedom.

Incidentally, Greenspan's new book pisses all over the sorry notion that we invaded and occupied Iraq for anything other than Texas Tea...

Cullion
17th September 07, 05:19 PM
Yeah, but they kill for Freedom.

Incidentally, Greenspan's new book pisses all over the sorry notion that we invaded and occupied Iraq for anything other than Texas Tea...

It's one of the few 'my time in office' books that I might actually read.

Olorin
17th September 07, 06:13 PM
I guess I should sell my Blackwater stock now...

Sun Wukong
17th September 07, 06:25 PM
I guess I should sell my Blackwater stock now...

oh man, now that's just low. I really hope you're joking.

Olorin
17th September 07, 06:30 PM
oh man, now that's just low. I really hope you're joking.

What?

I think I will buy Wal-Mart or this sweet International Development Mutual fund that invests in emerging markets with low labor costs.

Stick
17th September 07, 06:38 PM
Olorin's all about the most offensive investment portfolio he can asemble.

Zendetta
17th September 07, 08:02 PM
Hey, its just bidness.

Sun Wukong
18th September 07, 04:15 AM
What?

I'm kidding really.



I think I will buy Wal-Mart or this sweet International Development Mutual fund that invests in emerging markets with low labor costs.

oh I'm so going to hell.

oldshadow
18th September 07, 06:58 AM
It will be interesting to see how the US will fill the void if Blackwater is kicked out. Blackwater has a large protection detail over there. It will also be fun to see how loud the other Iraq officials yell when their protection details leave.

Cullion
18th September 07, 07:04 AM
There's probably some detail we haven't been told.

Commodore Pipes
18th September 07, 07:37 AM
Interesting topic, but where's the whole story? I had to go to the cnn site to read the whole thing. It's like every other paragraph was left out. All throughout the article I was like "Who the fuck is McCormack?" I assumed he was some sort of Blackwater representative, because after the following quote, I couldn't believe he was from the state department:

'McCormack said that while the United States tries to avoid innocent casualties, "we are fighting people who don't play by any rules" and have no problem killing innocent civilians.'

Yikes. Way to present ourselves to our international partners.

But I do agree with Shwarma's sentiment about the black fucking scab Blackwater is.

I also like this quote:

'The reported added, "Iraqi courts do not have jurisdiction to prosecute contractors without the permission of the relevant member country of the Multi-National Forces in Iraq." '

So, what sort of progress have we made in this country again?

TM
18th September 07, 12:04 PM
This is all strangely reminicent of the jesuits getting kicked out of venice. It's like the rats throwing the cockroaches out.

Dagon Akujin
18th September 07, 12:16 PM
'McCormack said that while the United States tries to avoid innocent casualties, "we are fighting people who don't play by any rules" and have no problem killing innocent civilians.'

Yikes. Way to present ourselves to our international partners.


I think this quote is just horribly written. I believe he means the people they are fighting have no problem killing innocent civilians. It should read:

McCormack said that while the United States tries to avoid innocent casualties, "we are fighting people who don't play by any rules" and who have no problem killing innocent civilians.

Commodore Pipes
18th September 07, 12:23 PM
Ah.

I fail at reading comprehenshun.

Cullion
18th September 07, 12:29 PM
Actually you don't. Because McCormack was trying to use that as an excuse for the innocent civilians killed by his side, when his side are the ones that invaded their country.

Dagon Akujin
18th September 07, 12:43 PM
When I read it I thought it meant the other thing too. It's not your fault. The way the sentence is put together makes you suppose that it's the US killing innocents.

Which, ya know, is one of the reasons we hire mercenaries in the first place. We won't prosecute them, and Iraq can't. If they torture people, it's all good. And when they get caught and killed, we can still fly the American flag all over and say how terrible it is. Yet, when they die they don't appear in our number of dead, and when they kill we don't include those people in our numbers of killed, unless we want it to. It makes everything look kosher.

Dagon

Dagon Akujin
18th September 07, 01:03 PM
In fact, remember this picture (large (http://californiaconservative.org/images/fallujah_burnedamericans2.jpg)) everywhere at the start of the war?
http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/htimages/E021_Terror5_FallujahTerrorism_Time4-1204.jpg

It was all over the media. People everywhere STILL label them "American Soldiers". That way, we could get mad at the barbarian Iraqis about it. But fuck that. They weren't American soldiers. They may not have even been Americans. They were fucking Blackwater mercs.

And notice, OUR soldiers went in to seek revenge for the mercs being killed. 27 of OUR soldiers then died in the firefight in order to get the guys who did it. OUR soldiers then killed a bunch of civilians in Fallujah because they needed to get the guys who killed the people from Blackwater.

Another news story here. (http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070918/blackwater_profile_corrective.html)

Dagon

Commodore Pipes
18th September 07, 01:08 PM
Interesting discussion about rhetoric as a motivating force, and Bush's poor use of rhetoric to avoid a firm responsiblity:

http://armsandinfluence.typepad.com/armsandinfluence/2004/05/the_dam_and_the.html

That being said, this war in Iraq pisses me off so much. It's as if Bush is actively trying to ruin the US. And I'm not sure which is more shocking - the blatent (and sloppy) lies, misdirection, and propaganda of this conflict, or the fact that so many people fall for it. It's maddening.

MaverickZ
18th September 07, 01:29 PM
They were fucking Blackwater mercs.
Well, as long as they aren't people then it's ok if they get killed, burned and charred, and hung off a bridge support by their legs.

Dagon Akujin
18th September 07, 01:30 PM
Fuck this. Now I'm going to be pissed off all afternoon because I am reading a bunch of Blackwater stories again. Fuck fuck fuck.

Conspiracy Theorists: Did Blackwater set-up the Fallujah massacre? (http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/630475.html)

Crap fuck shit. Blackwater created by right-wing Christian Republican? You don't say. (http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060508/scahill)

Dagon

Commodore Pipes
18th September 07, 01:34 PM
At least two were American. A SF guy and one SEAL named Scott Helvenston, who tried to make it in the civilain world as a purveyer of fitness tapes and a 'personality.'

Just putting it out there for the record, not saying anyone deserved to be torn to pieces, american or not.

Teh El Macho
18th September 07, 02:41 PM
http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/htimages/E021_Terror5_FallujahTerrorism_Time4-1204.jpg
No one deserves to die like that.

Necroth
18th September 07, 02:48 PM
Not to defend the US invasion or the company, but Blackwater recruits former military personnel actively, going so far as to find out their current pay rates at their current civilian job and offer them 2 or 3 times that for what they call "bodyguard details" and "kushy jobs". Many of those who die from the various contracting firms over there are people who just don't want to work for Wal-Mart anymore (I say this because I have a friend who is a current Assistant Manager w/ Wal-Mart who has been approached by Blackwater). The offer is quite good considering wages for many civilian jobs and the fact that many former military still wish to identify with that lifestyle or live it directly, but without the actual US military component (or their job was cut from the military and they didn't wish to reenlist at the time it was cut, but have since rethought that, or any number of other reasons).

Dagon Akujin
18th September 07, 03:04 PM
http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/htimages/E021_Terror5_FallujahTerrorism_Time4-1204.jpg
No one deserves to die like that.
While true, Blackwater doesn't deserve the ability to kill civilians carte blanche, conduct themselves without oversight, and make millions for their right-wing, Republican Christian owners and supporters who gave millions to GWB at the expense of American taxpayers.

Oh, and guess who else gets $$ everytime Blackwater gets a contract? That's right, Halliburton! W...T...Fuck.

This entire Iraq debacle should be used as a model for how to be a war profiteer.

Dagon

Dagon Akujin
18th September 07, 03:08 PM
P.S. I'm sure that all the mercenaries who work for them are good, upstanding family men with wives and children back home, but Blackwater, the company, can go fuck itself and I really wouldn't feel bad if everyone of their employees found themselves at the business-end of an angry kalishnikov tomorrow.

Dagon Akujin
18th September 07, 04:40 PM
n6lzEhoXads

Cullion
18th September 07, 05:39 PM
The blame transference in this thread is spectacular.

Here's secret number 1)

Anybody, in every 'coalition' country who didn't proudly and publicly oppose this war from the start is to blame.

American troops, just like troops from every other country, occasionally go apeshit and shoot/rape/loot civilians. Sometimes, the really elite/loyal ones are actually ordered to.
(Re: the brit SAS guys who got caught driving around in a civie car dressed as arabs shooting at bystanders).

Here's secret number 2)
Soldiers who would not fight the fight withought sanction of military peer pressure, or without pay (I.e when they are invading and occupying people a long way from home who obviously present no real threat), are also mercenaries. They are just generally less well paid, and accept that because they have been operant conditioned to respond to flags, symbols on uniforms and catchphrases in a certain way.

Kein Haar
18th September 07, 10:29 PM
You know what annoys the HELL out of me?

The Blackwater logo.

Wolves and most dogs have four toes and a dew-claw.

Some dogs lack a dew-claw.

No dogs have five toes.

Idiots.

Having said that, getting all antsy about them is kinda missing the forest for the trees.

http://www.blackwaterusa.com/images/logo/logo2.gif

WarPhalange
18th September 07, 11:38 PM
I think the logo means that they are not a regular dog, but a mutant dog that can go apeshit sometimes for no reason.

Sun Wukong
19th September 07, 05:58 AM
You know what annoys the HELL out of me?

The Blackwater logo.

Wolves and most dogs have four toes and a dew-claw.

Some dogs lack a dew-claw.

No dogs have five toes.

Idiots.


Holy shit... I never saw that before. I knew something looked weird about the logo but didn't catch it right away. FUNNY!

Teh El Macho
19th September 07, 07:20 AM
I think the logo means that they are not a regular dog, but a mutant dog that can go apeshit sometimes for no reason.

/thread :P

Adakar
19th September 07, 07:37 AM
It looks like a bear claw to me. But then again I can't remember if it has 5 claws either.

Commodore Pipes
19th September 07, 07:51 AM
I heard them droning that tired old line about how "if we don't fight them over in Iraq, we'll have to fight them in the U.S." And of course, as I do every time I hear that dumb-ass reasoning, I think to myself: 'So I guess Iraq civilians lives are worht less than American civilian lives." And then I remembered the quote below, and it all made sense.



McCormack said that while the United States tries to avoid innocent casualties, "we are fighting people who don't play by any rules" and have no problem killing innocent civilians.

MaverickZ
19th September 07, 08:38 AM
It's a bear paw.

Kein Haar
19th September 07, 08:58 AM
Bear?

What the hell is the signifigance of a bear?

They don't use them tactically, like dogs.

Necroth
19th September 07, 10:05 AM
Dagon, get the f out of my head. I was this close to mentioning that very soliloquy. I just thought it was too nerd to go for..."Contractors, roofers"...

MaverickZ
19th September 07, 10:09 AM
Bear?

What the hell is the signifigance of a bear?

They don't use them tactically, like dogs.
The Marines also don't employ tactical bald eagles in their air wing, but ya know... there it is.
http://www.militaryplaques.com/Seals/Marines-Corps%20Seal%20Plaque%20M.jpg

Yiktin Voxbane
19th September 07, 11:38 AM
FOOLS .... it's actually an Ai (3-toed sloth) with 2 dummy claws . Blackwater is SO secretive even their logo is shielded by misinformationz .

Kein Haar
19th September 07, 12:43 PM
The marines inherited the national emblem.

Blackwater is just being confusing.

MaverickZ
19th September 07, 01:14 PM
The marines inherited the national emblem.

Blackwater is just being confusing.
Well, I'm not really aware of the revolutionary army ever using tactical bald eagles either.

GuiltySpark
19th September 07, 10:20 PM
Backwater. Yikes.
Nothing beats giving guys 10 to 20 grand a month and a licence to kill at will.

Kein Haar
20th September 07, 04:23 AM
Well, I'm not really aware of the revolutionary army ever using tactical bald eagles either.

Of course they did.

MaverickZ
20th September 07, 08:45 AM
Of course they did.
Oh. I blame the poor state of the American educational system.

oldshadow
20th September 07, 09:01 AM
It’s a bear track. Their “compound” is in an area known for black bear.
It sounds like they were on a protection detail (Which is what their contracts are for) and received fire. They returned fire but were a bit careless who got in the way. In other words they fucked up under fire but it is not the first time this has happened for personal under fire and will not be the last time. They are not in a real since mercenaries any more then a “rent a cop” is. They are private security in a real bad neighborhood. They are not the only private security operating in Iraq just the largest one.
Also everyone that is shooting at them are civilians just pick up the AK of the RPG from the body and there you have civilian.
All this does not mean that I think they should not be held accountable for a fuck up but it needs to be investigated and the situation they were in at the time needs to be taken into account.

TM
22nd September 07, 12:09 PM
Mercs are fucking assholes anyway. Anyone that's ever had to deal with those worthless motherfucking pukes knows that. No morals, no code of honor, no skills, no brains, no purpose to keep sucking air on this rock. It used to be if it could be proven you were a merc you lost your U.S. citizenship. We need to go back to that.

Necroth
24th September 07, 02:04 AM
You don't get it. Blackwater the company is employed by the US gov't. How are you going to revoke the citizenship of people the gov't employs to do the dirty work that they don't want to waste military forces on: bodyguards for dignitaries, interpreters, as well as guard details at low importance zones, etc. Mercenaries are soldiers hired by a country to fight wars. So...you're saying we revoke citizenship from people we employed to do what we want them to do? Hilarious.

As for mercs being worthless, what soldier that is in war for money and carnage isn't worthless? On the front of "carnage", every hardheaded, gung-ho mf I went into the army with learned quick enough from those around them that no one is willing to put up with BS of the deadly degree, and someone would end up holding you down and beating your arse for crap like that. As for money, no one joins the US military for money, so mercs would be the only ones making money.

As I already stated, many of Blackwater's employs do it because it's good money, tax-free due to tax break incentives, and many of them are former military who work/worked blue collar jobs making very little cash after they got out. Just because a few groups have decided to kill civilians doesn't mean all of those guys are letting the weapons fire aimlessly. The US military has had mistakes of the same type and caliber, but I don't hear any of you in here comdemning the whole military for the mistakes of one or two soldiers. Abu Ghraib didn't "prove" that the military is an organization of unethical pricks, just that some officers and some enlisted people had problems. Seriously, listen to yourselves. Although Enron's management were ethically vapid blackholes of idiocy and illegal practices, the worker at one of their power plants was just a guy pullin' a paycheck. Same with almost any company in the US. So stop talking about EVERY employee of Blackwater like they're all worthless "pukes". It's stupid and it makes you look stupid.

Dagon Akujin
24th September 07, 02:11 AM
Well, why don't we take all those billions of dollars we are sending to Blackwater, et. al., and pay our military boys more? I'm all for professional soldiers.

Oh yeah... forgot the whole war profiteering thing for Bushie's friends.

SFGOON
24th September 07, 12:03 PM
It's the same throughout history...

"When there's money in the banks there'll be hoodlums in the ranks."

Of course, now we're outsourcing our hoodlums. Very Web 2.0!

Cullion
24th September 07, 12:08 PM
I had a look at Blackwater's website fpr recruitment requirements. According to the site to get a job as security out there you have to be ex US-elite unit of some sort (Rangers, Seal, Force Recon etc..), with an honourable discharge

Do the people here who've worked alongside these contractors think that's an accurate picture? I'm noticing a real dislike and apparent lack of confidence in the abilities of these people from the current and former military people here, which is surprising if these Blackwater guys are all supposed to be highly trained ex-SF types. What's the deal ?

Zendetta
24th September 07, 12:49 PM
Blackwater recruits from foreign militaries too.

Cullion
24th September 07, 12:59 PM
So were the guys that the military people here worked with foreigners ?

Necroth
25th September 07, 09:42 AM
Dagon: Now that is a great idea. I can certainly get on board with anything that raises the avg. pay of the avg. enlisted soldier above 35 cents per hour, as calculated by me when i was in the Army. Keep in mind, since I was on call 24 hours a day, 365 days per year, I took that into account to come to this number. But even without resorting to that calculation, at the time (this is '97/'98 numbers here, I have heard they pay alot more now, though still less than they should) I was receiving 1010$ per month gross, at E-2 paygrade. It came to 374$ net, twice per month, drawing 0 dependents. Which is less than I made at my last part-time job in TX, at 6.65$ an hour. So, it was a pittance considering the level of training to do my MOS vs. the level of training to stock K-mart shelves, and almost the same pay.

Regardless, I'd never heard that they "required" spec. forces for security details, though they did seem to lean more heavily on those types to join and less heavily on those of us with, how do you say, less dangerous and less combat oriented training. But if the site says it, I'd wager it's true. I too am curious to hear from current military or recently seperated military who actually worked alongside, with, or had contact with BW crews.

Cullion
25th September 07, 10:13 AM
Dagon: Now that is a great idea. I can certainly get on board with anything that raises the avg. pay of the avg. enlisted soldier above 35 cents per hour, as calculated by me when i was in the Army. Keep in mind, since I was on call 24 hours a day, 365 days per year, I took that into account to come to this number. But even without resorting to that calculation, at the time (this is '97/'98 numbers here, I have heard they pay alot more now, though still less than they should) I was receiving 1010$ per month gross, at E-2 paygrade. It came to 374$ net, twice per month, drawing 0 dependents. Which is less than I made at my last part-time job in TX, at 6.65$ an hour. So, it was a pittance considering the level of training to do my MOS vs. the level of training to stock K-mart shelves, and almost the same pay.

Are you taking into account the food, accommodation and other benefits ?

TM
25th September 07, 11:18 AM
Sorry. I've been in combat and I maintain that mercenaries are stupid asshole worthless pussies. Only the cia are worse.

elipson
26th September 07, 12:01 AM
Only the cia are worse.
Examples?
(I'm just a spy junky, I want stories )

TM
26th September 07, 12:01 PM
Like the idiots that used to run around in cowboy hats with light colored clothing in triple canopy jungle smoking cigars and talking too loud, trying to upsurp orders from legitimate officers with commisions ect. If it weren't for Bad Bob Howard saying no no most of them would have caught one in the back.

Necroth
27th September 07, 10:23 AM
Cullion: Taking those into account, I would use a cost range produced by State funded, federally accredited colleges to provide all of those benefits, coupled with the average Blue Cross/Blue Shield coverage PPO of roughly the same caliber as Tri-Care at the time, which would be 3500$ per year on food and lodging, 1320$ a year on medical, at 110$ per month (both of which are a tad bloated as I've paid less for both in my time), coming to an added 4820$ per year, or roughly 400$ per month. Split into two checks, that would raise my 374$ to 574$, which is only 80-100$ more than I make now, stocking shelves overnight at Safeway Stores, Inc. So, for 2 weeks of training to stock shelves, I am being shorted around 100$ from the military pay circa 1997, for 8+13 weeks of training.

BTW, I chose the college meal and lodging plan for it's comparison via gov't inclusion, and because I do not remember the VHA/BAQ/BAS at the time I was in for E-2.

AAAhmed46
29th September 07, 12:23 AM
Don't ever drink black water, as well as yellow water.

GuiltySpark
29th September 07, 05:23 PM
Never pet a burning dog.