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GuiltySpark
19th August 07, 05:27 PM
Just recently I was reminded of a group from quebec. ( http://www.valcartier2007.ca (http://www.valcartier2007.ca/)) Who are basically sending letters to Canadian soldiers going to Afghanistan asking them not to go.
One of their cover boys is an ex canadian soldier who's claim to fame is that he is Canada's first war resister.
His story is basically that he quit the army because he didn't want to be sent to Afghanistan because he doesnt believe in what we're doing bla bla bla.
The funny thing is that he was in the reserves and in Canada reservists aren't ordered overseas. It's 100% volintary so basically he would have never been "sent to Afghanistan"
Never the less the media ate it up and he's the poster boy for it.

Anyways my question in general is how do you other soldiers feel about war resisters? Guys who have gone over once already and said fuck this noise I'm not going back, or people who signed up for college and all that good stuff but now wanna back out of their end of the deal.

What should be done with them? Put them in jail until the end of their enlistment (or 1 to 4 years etc..) or in the case of college education being why they joined, punt them out of the army and make them pay the government whatever it would have cost them to go to school?

NoMan
19th August 07, 05:51 PM
I hated them when I was in. The military does its best in the situations that we find ourselves in. The soldiers job is to do what his government commands of him within the legal limits of the RoE, not to be a political device. Anyone leaving at this point knows what we're into and could have decided a long time ago against it. Its dangerous for soldiers, as a group, to get involved in politics, witness military juntas across the world.

I don't think any sort of quasi-fascist punishment system is the way to go though. I think the solution is fairly simple. Kick them out of the military and they lose all service related benefits. No educational or retirement benefits. For my part, I'm more concerned about the government's lack of interest in soaring PTSD rates from service-related time in war zones than I am about the objectors. If it weren't for the soldiers over there that volunteered, the draft would have been instated long ago and the people not wanting to go would have been forced. Go soldiers, screw politicians.

AAAhmed46
19th August 07, 06:15 PM
Why the hell did they join the army then? Agree or disagree with ____war, they are soldiers who are supposed to do the fighting. I mean why become a soldier then?

WarPhalange
19th August 07, 06:26 PM
Well, every commerical/ad/recruiter that I have heard said that you are defending your country. You're not a mercenary. So if the person doesn't think this is in the best interest of the country, then that's when conflicts arise.

Gezere
19th August 07, 08:09 PM
In never surprises me how stupid some pple can be. "WHAT!?!?! GO TO WAR!?!?!? I DIDN'T JOIN THE ARMY TO FIGHT A WAR!!!!"

I have more respect for someone who has been once and doesn't want to go back. War isn't like the movies. Its not like the fantasies many pple have. It can really fuck with you when you realize that at any moment you might die. Some pple handle it better than others. For someone to sign up and when its time for them to actually do their job they back out!?!?!? Fuck 'em!

Steve
19th August 07, 08:16 PM
For someone to sign up and when its time for them to actually do their job they back out!?!?!? Fuck 'em!

I'm not pro military at all, but I have to agree with you.

AAAhmed46
19th August 07, 08:29 PM
In never surprises me how stupid some pple can be. "WHAT!?!?! GO TO WAR!?!?!? I DIDN'T JOIN THE ARMY TO FIGHT A WAR!!!!"

I have more respect for someone who has been once and doesn't want to go back. War isn't like the movies. Its not like the fantasies many pple have. It can really fuck with you when you realize that at any moment you might die. Some pple handle it better than others. For someone to sign up and when its time for them to actually do their job they back out!?!?!? Fuck 'em!

Yep.


Don't people who join the army realize what the army is for?

Riddeck
20th August 07, 12:35 AM
Yep.


Don't people who join the army realize what the army is for?

Of course they do. But with a War like Iraq, you cannot blame them for not wanting part in that mess.

WarPhalange
20th August 07, 12:58 AM
How many people resisted against going to fight in WW2 vs. going to fight in Vietnam?

How many people resisted against going to fight in Afghanistan vs. Iraq?

People aren't stupid. When they see a situation is FUBAR and they are going to their deaths, they start resisting it.

Mr. Jones
20th August 07, 01:09 AM
You can't really blame somebody........... for refusing to die like a dog.

Antifa
20th August 07, 01:24 AM
I'm going to jump in here....

Since its late and I'm tired and I'm busy as shit with other things in my life these days.... I'll slow this down with a question or two?

Has anybody here met or talked with any military dissenters and/or war resisters?

Can we start to break their experiences and motivations into smaller catagories as Asia has begun too?

Smaller brush people... paint with a smaller brush

Sun Wukong
20th August 07, 02:00 AM
it depends on the war in question in my opinion. WWII? A damn fine cause to fight for.

The same question of cowardice could be posed of German soldiers of the time. Go to war for der fuhrer? Well, you joined the military to fight didn't you?

It's a volunteer army right? Everybody get's to change their mind, i think that's in the Declaration of Indepence right?

"...life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness..." etc.

It doesn't matter to me that our country's chose this course of action; what matters is we have to do what it takes to make sure the situation as it stands is made better.

GuiltySpark
20th August 07, 11:19 AM
Like Asia touched on, reasons why play a big deal (for me anyways)

If you take a guy, say a medic, who spent 14 months picking up body parts, watching his friends get hurt and killed and seen the bloody after math of children, elderly etc.. (who are the main ones hurt in terrorist attacks) suffer and die, I'm not going to condem him for saying nope I'm not going back.

Compare that to someone who joined for the college money and decides nope I don't want to put my life at risk. I doubt that type will get much sympathy here.

What should be done with them though? Kick hem out of the army, release them, make them pay college money back?
Should soldiers who refuse to go to war all be treated the same (disciplinary wise) or should soldiers who have already been over be treated less harshly.

Also what about harassment by these anti-war groups?
With this group from quebec they are emailing soldiers families, sending them letters in the mail and calling their houses.
Should that be considered harassment?

Antifa
20th August 07, 11:50 AM
I've met a quite a few resisters and more than a few vets of the recent unpleasentness who are wholeheartedly against it.

I can break them down into a number of catagories:

1) They didnt like what they saw. War is ugly business.

2) They were against what they did. A few people I have met either witnessed or participated in war crimes. They are not happy guys and are really at odds with themsleves and even have trouble speaking about it.

3) They signed up for Afganistan and wound up in Iraq. They see Iraq as an unessecary and immoral conflict or they dont dig the contractor scene going on there. For instance there was an ethics proffessor from West Point who volunteered to go there and wound up eating his own gun after managing contractors.

4) They signed up for the reserves/nasty girl and got shipped overseas... twice. and then got stop-lossed

5) They signed up in peacetime and didnt really want to go to war.

For number 5 you get no love from me, despite left propaganda about the "poverty draft" etc, look...

its a volunteer force and you ought to know what war is about. deal with it.

The other 4 have varying moral issues which need discussed.

Go!

Gezere
20th August 07, 12:18 PM
You get no sympathy for 3, 4, or 5.

1 and 2 are valid but doesn't excuse them form not doing their sworn duty.

Especially 2, there is a lot of shit that might not seem right but is.It sounds bad but the higher up you are the more you see the big picture the lower you are the less you see. I know that didn't understand and questioned alot of things that we did but in hindsight I understand why we did it. That doesn't mean there aren't some fucked up things that goes on but sometimes you don't see it, good or bad, from the start.

Also most pple, including soldiers, really don't know what a true war crime is or not. Killing innocent when and children, crime. Killing women and children with a AK-47, explosives, or feeding intel to set of an IED, not a crime. Some guys have had to do that. It fucks with you but its not a war crime. A co-worker of mine had to kill a kid who was going to set of an IED. He still can't speak about it sober it still fucks with him. He's been there 3 times. If he didn't want to go back I would understand. Another lost every gunner he had. Then came back to find his wife shacked up with another guy. If he didn't want to go back I understand. But for the reasons in 3, 4, 5, fuck bitch!

Antifa
20th August 07, 01:16 PM
Asia dude.... I'm not disagreeing with you on all your points, however I would like to raise this:

I would have hoped that you would have waited till some other people sounded off on these points, not because they might be more right or wrong or whatever, but because you are a serving guy, and a badass, and on staff of the website and thus you may have ended the discussion before it went everywhere it could go.

Sorry to be crunchy about it... just saying....


my 2 cents on 3 4 and 5.

5 you get no love.

4 you get very little

3... well I understand how somebody could march off to the recruiting station in 2001 and be saying wtf in 2004... But still... critical thinking before snap descisions... I tend to think through the implications of a cell phone contract. People ought to do the same with 8 years of their lives. or more.

As for #2... I've heard stories of non-combatants (not kids with AK-47 nor intel) getting smoked from guys who cant live with witnessing or participating in the experience nor the aftermath of reporting it.

Nevermind a guy I met who was ordered to smoke a kid with a broom because his Lt thought it was an AK... snap descisions can make for long treatment cycles.

Gezere
20th August 07, 01:34 PM
My bad. Didn't want to stop the discussion.

Gezere
20th August 07, 01:38 PM
Asia dude.... I'm not disagreeing with you on all your points, however I would like to raise this:

I would have hoped that you would have waited till some other people sounded off on these points, not because they might be more right or wrong or whatever, but because you are a serving guy, and a badass, and on staff of the website and thus you may have ended the discussion before it went everywhere it could go.

Sorry to be crunchy about it... just saying....


my 2 cents on 3 4 and 5.

5 you get no love.

4 you get very little

3... well I understand how somebody could march off to the recruiting station in 2001 and be saying wtf in 2004... But still... critical thinking before snap descisions... I tend to think through the implications of a cell phone contract. People ought to do the same with 8 years of their lives. or more.

As for #2... I've heard stories of non-combatants (not kids with AK-47 nor intel) getting smoked from guys who cant live with witnessing or participating in the experience nor the aftermath of reporting it.

Nevermind a guy I met who was ordered to smoke a kid with a broom because his Lt thought it was an AK... snap descisions can make for long treatment cycles.
Snap decisions are a motherfucker. It can save your life, get you killed, or haunt yo u for the rest of your life.

DAYoung
20th August 07, 03:56 PM
Especially 2, there is a lot of shit that might not seem right but is.It sounds bad but the higher up you are the more you see the big picture the lower you are the less you see. I know that didn't understand and questioned alot of things that we did but in hindsight I understand why we did it. That doesn't mean there aren't some fucked up things that goes on but sometimes you don't see it, good or bad, from the start.

How 'high up' are you talking? In the military, or the civilian government?

GuiltySpark
20th August 07, 03:56 PM
It's the decision wether you open fire on the car speeding towards your check point. Is it a suicide bomber or is it some asshole who's half blind and can't see you or too high to connect the dots.

Or is it a car with a man in it and a bunch of orphans who was forced to drive towards you JUST so the checkpoint will open fire and fill the car full of bullets giving "them" a properganda victory on the news.

I heard the contractor situation in Iraq is RTFO. They basically (unless it's changed recently) have no leash.

I can understand wanting to serve in Afghanistan but not wanting to get sent to Iraq. I understand when you sign on the dotted line you get sent where ever they want to send you but the problem lies in how many soldiers are flat out lied to in recruiting. Some get promised that they won't be sent to Iraq, can you fault them for not beleiving the recruiter? Someone from the very organization that you're entrusting your life to? We know the difference but I wouldn't expect an 18 year old with no life experience to pick up on it. I've did recruiting, I know how sneaky it can be :)

Also, could the high op-tempo be the reason more and more guys are wigging out?

You've been to Iraq, came home, got sent to afghanistan. a month away from your fly home date you get told you're staying an extra 2 to 4 months. So you dig in and wait out. On your 3rd month you get told you're going home for 2 or 3 months then you're getting sent back to Iraq.
I'd be pissed, especially since these decisions are made by guys who never get sand in their boots, except to spend a few weeks inside the wire so they get a medal or two. Maybe if we stopped forcing guys to return so soon after getting home there would be less battle stress, less awol, less resisters.

Bit of a sidebar and maybe better left for another thread but wouldnt the US be able to field a considerable number of more soldiers if they allowed (open) homosexuals into the armed forces?
Surely that has to be better than calling 50 year old retired dudes back to the infantry 20 years after they hang up their swords.

Gezere
20th August 07, 04:04 PM
How 'high up' are you talking? In the military, or the civilian government?

As a private you might not understand the big picture of whats going on. As you rise in rank you understand it a bit more but may not see all the factors at play. Same for a Lieutenant. Even when you do start making rank you still might not get the see the big picture. My father was a high ranking officer. In a normal unit he was king. At the Pentagon he was a gofor.

In civilian government the population is unaware of the vast majority of things that go on. You don't see that unless you get into the political arena yourself or work for those who are.

DAYoung
20th August 07, 04:29 PM
As a private you might not understand the big picture of whats going on. As you rise in rank you understand it a bit more but may not see all the factors at play. Same for a Lieutenant. Even when you do start making rank you still might not get the see the big picture. My father was a high ranking officer. In a normal unit he was king. At the Pentagon he was a gofor.

In civilian government the population is unaware of the vast majority of things that go on. You don't see that unless you get into the political arena yourself or work for those who are.

Ok. I thought this might've been what you meant.

This thread's meant for enlisted men, so I don't want to get too involved.

I recognise that those involved in tactics don't always get the strategy. And this goes for politics, too.

But there's a very big difference between explaining why some horrible shit had to happen, and justifying it. There are plenty of 'big picture' reasons why kids have to die, and women widowed. But I'll be damned if these are justified, particularly by the rich, powerful and well-protected civilians who give the orders.

Antifa
20th August 07, 05:54 PM
Ok. I thought this might've been what you meant.

This thread's meant for enlisted men, so I don't want to get too involved.

I recognise that those involved in tactics don't always get the strategy. And this goes for politics, too.

But there's a very big difference between explaining why some horrible shit had to happen, and justifying it. There are plenty of 'big picture' reasons why kids have to die, and women widowed. But I'll be damned if these are justified, particularly by the rich, powerful and well-protected civilians who give the orders.

Yeah like the frat boys who show up to anti-war demonstrations to pick fights.

love those guys.

One of them showed up with friends to a thing in austin selling tie-dyed t-shirts that said "Support the troops, slap your local hippie".

I walked right into the middle of them and offered myself up to get slapped.

No takers. They called the cops over to protect them (about 10... all of them much bigger than me) from a little hippie who wanted to get slapped.

Bitches.

Wont being seeing their punk asses down at the recruiting station either

Mr. Jones
20th August 07, 07:44 PM
In civilian government the population is unaware of the vast majority of things that go on. You don't see that unless you get into the political arena yourself or work for those who are.

This reminds me of something my father told me. He said while he was in the navy he was on a ship and they were sending off jets and firing the ship guns off of Vietnam. His 4 years were up after that so he came home. He told everyone he knew that the United States was at war and no one believed him. I'm not sure how long it took for the public to find out after he did.

jubei33
21st August 07, 07:03 PM
My father earned conscientious objector status instead of being drafted during Vietnam. He did alternative service as part of the status. he spent his service years cleaning up parks, serving soup in public kitchens and painting the curbs of streets.

this is a little different (being that he didn't have a choice like some of these guys), but i don't see the problem if they object to the war, but maybe they could perform alternative service. They should also give up the percentage of grants that they failed to finish in service. IMO

Sun Wukong
22nd August 07, 09:57 PM
As far as not wanting to go because you're afraid to die goes, I really don't see that as an extremely good reason unless you've actually already been there.

The U.S. has lost just over 4,000 soldier's lives presently since about 3 years ago. While that is a tragic loss of life, especially considering the circumstances surrounding the occupation of Iraq, that is a very small number compared to the Vietnam police action, the Korean War, and especially WW2.

Take the Battle of the Bulge for example:

December 16 1944 to January 25, 1945 (only about 41 days)

Total American Casualties:


89,987

-19,276 dead,
-23,554 captured or missing,
-47,493 wounded

Only 4000 lost soldiers in 3 years speaks volumes of our mastery over our enemy on a conventional battle ground. The only reason why they still exist is because we are not willing to smash the entire country flat by force of arms.

We are trying to rebuild Iraq (apparently) but have made almost no progress. Poor planning is a massive understatement. Not wanting to support the current governments efforts in Iraq is understandable given the absurdity of how the war has been handled up to this point.

Changing your mind about going to war, especially those who just joined up while it's still going on is a monumental screw up. If they had some sort of external pressure that made them join like they're broke and need the health insurance for ailing dependents then I can see how it would be a desperate situation... however, the overwhelming odds are such that the average individual soldier there isn't going to die.

We're not exactly being "slaughtered" in Iraq. Just a note of curiousity... I wonder what the average life expectancy for Iraqi police is these days? Now that's a job that will get you killed.

As a side note: does any one else see the irony in the fact that the people (edit: meaning citizens of Iraq) that we supposedly went there to protect are in more danger than our soldiers are from day to day? Just an observation.

AAAhmed46
23rd August 07, 01:03 AM
I deem your post unpatriotic!!!!!

Gezere
23rd August 07, 08:18 AM
As a side note: does any one else see the irony in the fact that the people (edit: meaning citizens of Iraq) that we supposedly went there to protect are in more danger than our soldiers are from day to day? Just an observation.
The reason why is because the civilians are "soft targets" insurgence are going to go for them more than they will a military one because they 1) have a much higher chance of success 2) won't get slaughtered in the process 3) can used it for propaganda. Remember the insurgence look like everyone else. It is having affect on some because you have insurgents turning against each other because they are killing their own pple an not the Americans.

Tenebrae Vision
23rd August 07, 03:46 PM
Whether one agrees or disagrees with whatever the US is doing at the time, the bottom line is we signed a contract and swore an oath. The oath makes no provisions for war "that I agree with" or "orders I believe in, I will follow.. otherwise I'm audi5000"

The oath reads as follows:
"I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

So Help me God (optional)"

It IS an Oath, which is why one should really think before they enlist (or reenlist). Your government may send you somewhere you don't believe we should be. Your government may send you there, repeatedly. You may be ordered to do things otherwise distasteful or even morally objectionable, to you.

However, you swore an Oath to do them. To do other than what you swore (unlawful orders notwithstanding), says to me that you are not a person of your word. It says to me that you're not one to stand by those words and thus, undeserving of all the accolades or benefits afforded to those who took that same Oath and stood by them. Many of those who serve may object or even loathe what we're doing overseas, but they're standing by their Oath.

Those who joined for the benefits and decided they didn't want to actually do what they SWORE they would do get no quarter from me. That's why one should think long and hard before they ever sign that paper and raise their hand. It's the armed forces. It might mean you have to take up arms. It might mean you have to fight. It might mean, gods forbid, you may die. Think long, think hard, and think about what you're swearing to do...

It might come back and bite you in the ass later, if you don't.

I've been lucky. I haven't been sent to the sandbox, as yet. I may never go. I don't necessarily agree with everything that's going on over there.. however if I am told "MA2, you're going..." I will pack my seabag, put on my boots, and do what I swore.

Sun Wukong
23rd August 07, 05:17 PM
The reason why is because the civilians are "soft targets" insurgence are going to go for them more than they will a military one because they 1) have a much higher chance of success 2) won't get slaughtered in the process 3) can used it for propaganda. Remember the insurgence look like everyone else. It is having affect on some because you have insurgents turning against each other because they are killing their own pple an not the Americans.



I agree with you 100%. However, my capitulation and vulnerability of Iraqi citizens doesn't alleviate the irony of the situation. The flawed idea is that we went there to liberate and protect them at all. We invaded purely to protect ourself from an enemy that wasn't acting directly against us.

In short, this is probably the most ludicrous war of the entire US history and I hope GW Bush goes down in the books as the most incompetent president with the most incompetent advisors backed by the dumbest voters in all of US history.

Show me a U.S. president that harmed this country more than GW Bush and I'll show you an autographed photo of der Krampus in flagrante with the tooth fairy.

Gezere
23rd August 07, 06:10 PM
I agree with you 100%. However, my capitulation and vulnerability of Iraqi citizens doesn't alleviate the irony of the situation. The flawed idea is that we went there to liberate and protect them at all. We invaded purely to protect ourself from an enemy that wasn't acting directly against us.

In short, this is probably the most ludicrous war of the entire US history and I hope GW Bush goes down in the books as the most incompetent president with the most incompetent advisors backed by the dumbest voters in all of US history.

Show me a U.S. president that harmed this country more than GW Bush and I'll show you an autographed photo of der Krampus in flagrante with the tooth fairy.
He's definitely one of the more incompetent one.

Poor response to 9/11

Incompetence in both Afgahn and Iraq

No balls what so ever. (Sorry if I was in charge and someone like Chavez came to my country and called me the Devil I my next address would have the censors going crazy. How do you say, "CHOKE ON DEEZ NUTZ, BITCH!" in spanish)

Elbow Bomber
24th August 07, 09:53 AM
The flawed idea is that we went there to liberate and protect them at all. We invaded purely to protect ourself from an enemy that wasn't acting directly against us.

In short, this is probably the most ludicrous war of the entire US history and I hope GW Bush goes down in the books as the most incompetent president with the most incompetent advisors backed by the dumbest voters in all of US history.

i think there's a whole lot of people think this now. i mean wtf? 70359 civilian deaths in Iraq now, & 4000+ troops, RIP. and for what? as if we all didnt all know for what, for business intersts is for what

i have the utmost respect for the serving military, and this clusterfuck wasnt worth a single soldiers life, it wasnt our business, or our businesses, ..might be a better way of putting it

and no signs of an end either. man something has to be done about this shit.

Liffguard
24th August 07, 03:31 PM
Just curious. What exactly is a "war resister?" Surely, if you don't want to go to war, you can just resign?

SuperGuido
24th August 07, 05:53 PM
Just curious. What exactly is a "war resister?" Surely, if you don't want to go to war, you can just resign?

Not so much in the US.

We claim to have a "Volunteer Military"...but all that means is that our government doesn't force anyone to serve.

You can't "Quit". If you leave without being properly dismissed, you're guilt of breaking the UCMJ and can be charged as a criminal.

Basically, if you ever change your mind about serving...YOU ARE SCREWED.

The "War Resisters" in the US are anti-war servicemen that simply want to "Quit" the job they initially signed up for.

My opinion?

The military offers a LOT to its people. Housing, food, clothing, pay, medical, training...if you come from poverty, the military brings you up from nothing and gives you a decent standard of living.

Your average 18 year old private will have clothing, food, shelter, job training, medical/dental, and enough money to screw around on his/her free time.

I liken this to a job with a lot of "Perks".

My job has a lot of perks. I travel all over America for free, stay in expensive hotels, expense pricey dinners, make my own schedule...and I get paid.

If I decide that I no longer want my job, I can quit, start from scratch, and lose ALL of my perks as well as my paycheck.

But that is my choice, and my boss can't stop me from quitting.

Bottom line?

Let servicemen quit if they want. Take away their pay, perks, etc...and put them out on the street like any other job quitter.

But for fuck's sake, let them quit their damn job without getting arrested!

When I was in the Marines, I loved it. I was a first class PFT, Squad leader in Boot, meritoriously promoted in MCT, 2nd in class at my MOS school (I lat moved to POG...long story)...I did what I was told, and was treated very well by superiors because I was good at the damn job.

Another guy at Boot camp hated it, and eventually tried to kill himself because no one would let him quit the damn job.

---

Like any other job, some people aren't cut out for it. Let them go, improve morale overall, pay the remaining guys more, and call it a fucking day!

GuiltySpark
26th August 07, 12:06 PM
Good post Satori.

Anytime I'm speaking with someone on a course and they want to quit I say go for it.
If you're heart isn't in it then it's not in it. If someone just misses their girlfriend (kids today are so fucking dependent on cell phones it's insane) or he just has jitters then I try and talk him into staying or waiting a week. Usually that works. But if someone REALLY wants out I say send them packing ASAP.

Cullion
26th August 07, 12:54 PM
Just curious. What exactly is a "war resister?" Surely, if you don't want to go to war, you can just resign?

It doesn't work like that in most militaries. Military personnel in the US and UK are subject to a different legal code than civilians. There are many circumstances where they cannot refuse to do what they are told by simply saying 'I quit'.

Liffguard
26th August 07, 02:10 PM
It doesn't work like that in most militaries. Military personnel in the US and UK are subject to a different legal code than civilians. There are many circumstances where they cannot refuse to do what they are told by simply saying 'I quit'.

I may be wrong, but I was always under the impression that in the UK at least, you could resign from the military pretty much on a moment's notice. Granted, there might be logistical reasons why you couldn't actually do this on tour. I plan on joining the army after Uni and I can tell you, I don't want anyone watching my back who doesn't want to be there. Could anyone in the UK military confirm or deny this?

Sun Wukong
27th August 07, 03:58 AM
Incompetence in both Afgahn and Iraq


I'm kinda shaky on the critcisms for Afghanistan: what exactly is going wrong there from your vantage point. I could look it up elsewhere, but honestly I'd rather hear it directly from a soldiers vantage point than a journalist.

Sun Wukong
27th August 07, 04:04 AM
I may be wrong, but I was always under the impression that in the UK at least, you could resign from the military pretty much on a moment's notice. Granted, there might be logistical reasons why you couldn't actually do this on tour. I plan on joining the army after Uni and I can tell you, I don't want anyone watching my back who doesn't want to be there. Could anyone in the UK military confirm or deny this?
US Army is totally different. The only people who can just resign are officers and then it depends on the circumstances they got their commision under because as I understand it some new officers have a duty obligation depending on how they came to get their commission. For example, trained pilots and certain medical personnel who went to college on a military scholarship.

Take this with a grain of salt though, because I'm not exactly completely clear on the duty requirements of officers. As an enlisted man I did my best to not talk to them unless obligated to do so.

bushi_no_ki
5th September 07, 07:32 PM
OK, someone who's been, got fucked up in the head, and wants his MMRB discharge because of PTSD gets sympathy from me.

However, anyone who signed a damn contract and wants to renege on it for any other reason is a pussy and a coward. And for someone who wasn't forced to join, thus they weren't forced to go anywhere, and begins a campaign to convince people who chose to sign a contract and swore an oath to abandon that oath and contract isn't worthy of democratic freedoms and benefits. I know a few people who deserted/went AWOL because they didn't want to go to Iraq, for no other reason than they didn't want to go to Iraq. I have no respect for them.

GuiltySpark
7th September 07, 10:35 PM
I'm kinda shaky on the critcisms for Afghanistan: what exactly is going wrong there from your vantage point. I could look it up elsewhere, but honestly I'd rather hear it directly from a soldiers vantage point than a journalist.

We go in, clear out an area of taliban, hand it over to the afghan army and they loose it or are very close to losing it. It's like they just don't give a fuck.

They don't want to be under the yoke (yolk?) of the Taliban but their too lazy to do anything about it.

Sun Wukong
7th September 07, 11:44 PM
Yeah, that sounds about right to me.

Question!
8th September 07, 02:42 AM
We go in, clear out an area of taliban, hand it over to the afghan army and they loose it or are very close to losing it. It's like they just don't give a fuck.

They don't want to be under the yoke (yolk?) of the Taliban but their too lazy to do anything about it.

When you say they lose it, do you mean they just retreat or do they actually put up a fight and suffer too many casualties to continue... cause if their lives are on the line, I'm sure they would give a fuck.

Cullion
8th September 07, 03:46 AM
We go in, clear out an area of taliban, hand it over to the afghan army and they loose it or are very close to losing it. It's like they just don't give a fuck.

They don't want to be under the yoke (yolk?) of the Taliban but their too lazy to do anything about it.

Are the Afghan army well trained and equipped, or is it more like a rabble of semi-trained villagers using scavenged bits of old soviet equipment they aren't completely sure how to use and maintain?

GuiltySpark
8th September 07, 11:18 AM
When you say they lose it, do you mean they just retreat or do they actually put up a fight and suffer too many casualties to continue... cause if their lives are on the line, I'm sure they would give a fuck.

They've put up some very decent fights I guess but they've also got cell phone calls from their brothers and cousins in the Taliban and 'went for a walk' when the taliban attacked. I picture it like I pictured the South Vietnamese in vitenam. WITH americns beside them they'll put on a show and fight. With US (or allied) troops gone their morale (And at a guess access to airsupport and artillery) is drastically less.
The Afgan army from up north of Afghanistan hate the taliban and will do whatever they can to kill them, the guys from the south have brothers and cousins in the Taliban so it doesn't take much to figure out whats going on.
All in all I think the over all concensus is that they loose way more ground than they keep without allies around.



Are the Afghan army well trained and equipped, or is it more like a rabble of semi-trained villagers using scavenged bits of old soviet equipment they aren't completely sure how to use and maintain?

I can't speak for their training as I'm not sure how their being taught. Americans work with training them a lot and Americans are great soldiers who know how to fight, BUT, how wel the afgan's take that training is another story.

As for equipment, some look like little americans. They'll often have old american woodland uniforms, sometimes M16s and M60s. Radios, humvee's. Big fuck of top gun sunglasses.
That said some of the guys you run into look retarded (litterally handicaped), have AK47s that look so rusted you know they will never work and seem like they don't even know where they are. Very hit and miss .

For example you might find a single guy standing in the middle of a deserted village and he's doing a check point. Only thing is his only weapon is an RPG.

Cullion
8th September 07, 12:04 PM
Aren't these the same people who drove the Soviet Union out?

Or did all the smart and determined people join the Taliban?

GuiltySpark
8th September 07, 12:34 PM
They are. The Soviet Union helped the Taliban by treating ALL the civilians like terrorists. Comes back to hearts and minds.

I know where you're coming from with your comment and I see your point but there are many other factors.

Soviets using draftees (whom also didn't have a professional NCO carade which will make or break an army).
Soviets shit the bed with a lot of the tactics and doctrine that they used.

Suicide bombers are also a very new addition to the Taliban doctrine. I think 2006 was the first year they were used save a few isolated attacks.
Afghani's won't blow themselves up. They get people from Packastan and other countries to do that.

I don't think they drove the Soviets out as much as they made staying too costly.

Sun Wukong
8th September 07, 04:21 PM
Does anyone remember the Rambo sequel that was dedicated to the brave afghani resistance fighters, ie taliban? There's a testament to totally not understanding what the fuck you're talking about.

bushi_no_ki
8th September 07, 10:03 PM
Chris that's why I say this cuurent war, the GWOT, is the result of past mistakes.

Sun Wukong
9th September 07, 01:12 AM
Oh, it absolutely is, and this entire debacle will be the cherry on top of other similar wars.

Korean War: We never should have went there.

Vietnam War: We never should have went there.

Since 1946, we've been batting zero with the exception of the first desert storm. Which, we can thank at least one of the Bush's for having the wisdom not to over-extend.

Zendetta
9th September 07, 11:20 AM
Anybody here know who Smedley Butler was?

bushi_no_ki
9th September 07, 02:17 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedly_butler

A very good man. That was definitely a worthwhile read.

Commodore Pipes
10th September 07, 03:56 PM
Yes, I know who he was. Wish we had more like him.

Neildo
10th September 07, 03:59 PM
Does anyone remember the Rambo sequel that was dedicated to the brave afghani resistance fighters, ie taliban? There's a testament to totally not understanding what the fuck you're talking about.

That was the third one, I'm gonna download it when i get home because i want to see it now. y'know, for the lulz.

Cullion
10th September 07, 06:31 PM
The Taleban were brave resistance fighters when it was useful to US foreign policy for the proles to view them that way.

Can anybody, without googling, still remember why we invaded Afghanistan?

I have a vague recollection that the publicly stated reasons were a combination of the following:-

1) They, uh, oppress women and stuff.

2) They were intolerant of other religions and blew up some Buddhist statues.

3) Osama bin Laden was hiding in some corner of their country.

Without googling, this is all I can remember about the reasons for invading. All of those reasons would seem to apply to Saudi Arabia.

GuiltySpark will obviously know, so he should hold back a bit. I'm interested to see what people can remember about why we are there. No googling now!

Sun Wukong
10th September 07, 07:00 PM
As I recall we invaded becaue Afghanistan was a breeding ground for volatile terrorists and that al qaeda both trained and recruited from there.

DAYoung
10th September 07, 09:54 PM
1. They claimed to have invented baklava and halva.

2. According to Kipling, the women will cut up your remains.

3. Beards.

Cullion
11th September 07, 04:47 AM
As I recall we invaded becaue Afghanistan was a breeding ground for volatile terrorists and that al qaeda both trained and recruited from there.

None of the 9-11 attackers were from Afghanistan. Most of the money came from Saudi Arabia.

Cullion
11th September 07, 04:48 AM
1. They claimed to have invented baklava and halva.

2. According to Kipling, the women will cut up your remains.

3. Beards.

Ever thought about going into politics?

DAYoung
11th September 07, 04:55 AM
Ever thought about going into politics?

Yes.*
































*By 'yes', I mean 'no'.

/kisses baby

Sun Wukong
11th September 07, 05:18 AM
wait, you have to form an exploratory commitee before giving an answer to that question.

DAYoung
11th September 07, 06:02 AM
Is that a euphemism for 'having an enema'?

emboesso
11th September 07, 06:15 AM
2. According to Kipling, the women will cut up your remains.


He found the Kafiristanis to be much more civil.

A great voice for the empire. What could possibly be more British than the result of his poem "The Absent-Minded Beggar" being set to music by Sir Arthur Sullivan?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Absent-Minded_Beggar

DAYoung
11th September 07, 06:45 AM
I look forward to Charles Simic writing a piece for Gulf War widows, set to the music of the Dixie Chicks.

GuiltySpark
14th September 07, 07:37 PM
None of the 9-11 attackers were from Afghanistan. Most of the money came from Saudi Arabia.

I'd believe it.

However the attackers were fed, given shelter in, supported and trained in Afghanistan by the government of Afghanistan at the time. The Taliban. That makes them guilty.

Imagine having someone stay at your house. They tell you I'm going to kill someone. Knowing full well their inetntion, you buy them food and help them practice various things. From your house you start making contacts and connections that will enable said individual to murder someone. The murderer may not be 'from' your house but you're hands are definetly dirty. You enabled them.

Cullion
15th September 07, 12:34 PM
I'd believe it.

However the attackers were fed, given shelter in, supported and trained in Afghanistan by the government of Afghanistan at the time. The Taliban. That makes them guilty.

Imagine having someone stay at your house. They tell you I'm going to kill someone. Knowing full well their inetntion, you buy them food and help them practice various things. From your house you start making contacts and connections that will enable said individual to murder someone. The murderer may not be 'from' your house but you're hands are definetly dirty. You enabled them.

Yeah, but that happens in London too. The saudis are at least as culpable in this. Why isn't anybody planning to invade Saudi Arabia?

GuiltySpark
15th September 07, 08:54 PM
Yeah, but that happens in London too. The saudis are at least as culpable in this. Why isn't anybody planning to invade Saudi Arabia?

You know exactly why Cullion but I'm guessing you were being rethorical.

Why not invade Saudi? Obviously because we're in bed with them.
Just as the Taliban was our friend and Saddam Hussain was such an American friend that he was given the key to some city, so too is Saudi our friend.

10 years and we'll probably have boots on the ground over there and be saying ohhh geee we should have seen this coming.

Diplomacy is the art of saying nice doggy, until you find a big rock.
Thats exactly what all these guys do. Act friendly to the US until they have a big enough rock.

bushi_no_ki
15th September 07, 09:53 PM
GuiltySpark, that is exactly what concerns me. Who knows, maybe someday the Shi'a and Sunni will put aside their differences long enough to be a real threat to the US.

Lu Tze
16th September 07, 12:01 AM
The Shi'a and the Sunni wouldn't give a flying fucking shit about the US right now if we hadn't fucking invaded first.

Jesus tapdancing fucking christ.

Sh0t
16th September 07, 12:09 PM
Veteran Marine, I'm totally against the war and don't think either theater was worth the lives of anybody I knew.

I'm all for war protests, but I don't think they accomplish much.

I believe in the old school classical liberal idea of non-intervention and free-trade.

Cullion
16th September 07, 01:10 PM
You know exactly why Cullion but I'm guessing you were being rethorical.

I'm actually not certain. As to the rest of your post, no, I wouldn't approve of the scenario you propose. I'd want to cut off the shady crooked money now, and not support shoving any more young blue collar guys into a meat-grinder whose purpose had never been made clear to me when it finally (as is inevitable) blew up in the blue-bloods' face.

GuiltySpark
16th September 07, 02:50 PM
I think we should cut off the money and ties too, it'll save lives of our kids 10 years down the road.