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Phrost
31st July 07, 09:09 PM
Assuming they got the nod, who would you vote for?

WarPhalange
31st July 07, 09:10 PM
Jesse Ventura.

Steve
31st July 07, 10:27 PM
I haven't been paying to much attention but the Ron Paul videos that have been posted here impressed me.

WarPhalange
31st July 07, 10:30 PM
I guess Ron Paul is what I'll have to go with, too, since Ventura isn't running.

ICY
31st July 07, 11:54 PM
Obama.

Really, Kucinich is my favourite on the list, and Ron Paul is second, but Obama has a remote chance of winning, and wouldn't completely suck, IMO.

Steve
1st August 07, 12:14 AM
I'd rather have Obama than Clinton (http://www.sociocide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47193&highlight=hillary+clinton+spoofs), I know that much.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
1st August 07, 12:35 AM
Let's be realistic here. It doesn't matter who you want to vote for, because come election day when you pick between Hilary Clinton and Rudy Giuliani, the electronic voting machine will cast one vote for George W. Bush.

ICY
1st August 07, 05:20 AM
Yeah, it would be embarassing if the Republicans didn't reprogam'em.

Sun Wukong
1st August 07, 06:05 AM
Obama's my sole hope for the next election.

I don't really like Clinton and the republican party has too much ammunition to use against her; granted most of it is unfounded cheap shots, there are plenty of things about her as a candidate that I really don't like. She flip flopped like a fish regarding exiting Iraq.

Edwards... just kinda comes off like a dick to me. I think his act is overly practiced.

I really like Kucinich too and think he's prime V.P. candidate material.

Most of the Republican party I just kinda loathe in general, but what I think is awesome is there really is no front runner for them. The republican party is in chaos and is showing no sign of regrouping.

Ron Paul could go a long way for making the Republican party a great party again... but, I still disagree with a great deal of what the republican party stands for and much of what it has stood for since Reagan... and they just love some Reagan. If someone is smart, they'll pick this guy up as a VP nomination to tip the election scales in their favor.

bad credit
1st August 07, 08:39 AM
Sigh, I wish us Americans had an Anarchist Party like Germany. I guess Libraterians are the closest. I heard some shit that Ron Paul was switching to them? Was that a bucket of bull?

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
1st August 07, 08:44 AM
Ron Paul's voting record is the biggest disappointment ever. It's all like "No more war in Iraq keep the government away from the internet FUCK POOR PEOPLE AND SOCIAL PROGRAMS"

what the fuck, weak

Plasma
1st August 07, 11:35 AM
Rudy Giuliani is the only candidate I expirenced doing something right ever and not just bickering about it.

As a former NYer he got my vote.

ICY
1st August 07, 05:24 PM
MJS, Ron Paul doesn't say fuck social programs, he says they're not the business of GOVERNMENT. Not the same.

Plasma, what the fuck did Rudy ever do right?

Zendetta
1st August 07, 05:28 PM
He kicked the whores outta Time Square.

Phrost
1st August 07, 05:32 PM
Rudy Giuliani is the only candidate I expirenced doing something right ever and not just bickering about it.

As a former NYer he got my vote.

Even though he's anti-second amendment?

ICY
1st August 07, 06:21 PM
He kicked the whores outta Time Square.

LOL, I said what did he do right?

Phrost, who on that list is NOT anti-2nd amendment by your reckoning, aside from Ron Paul?

Iscariot
1st August 07, 06:39 PM
Where's the option to revoke your independence and bring you back into the Commonwealth?

WarPhalange
1st August 07, 06:44 PM
Even though I don't want Obama or Clinton to win, I still think either of them winning wouldn't be bad in the long run, because they'll open up doors that aren't marked "old white guy". Other countries have female and non-white leaders, it's about time we did. Then we can draw from a much bigger pool of candidates to fuck us in the ass.

SpringHeeledJack
1st August 07, 07:09 PM
Where's the option to revoke your independence and bring you back into the Commonwealth?Don't know, but when somebody finds it, I'm there.

Zendetta
1st August 07, 08:27 PM
Obama.

In the demo debate, all the Dems were crowing about how proud they were to have sent their kids to public schools, and the great edumacation they received.

Ol' Barak is like: yeah, my kids went to a great public school. But that's not the issue, as a US SENATOR will always be able to find a decent public school for his kids.

Fucking awesome. I wish he and Gravel would form a ticket.

JimmyTheHutt
1st August 07, 11:37 PM
Where is Bill Richardson? He should be on that list.

Veritas et Lux!
Jimmy The Hutt

ICY
2nd August 07, 01:37 AM
Zendetta...Gravel? You want the Dems to lose THAT badly!?

Zendetta
2nd August 07, 01:39 AM
Apparently, yes. Not that they need any help from me.

I just dig his crazy cowboy ways.

ICY
2nd August 07, 01:41 AM
I like him, but he's in no way viable.

Zendetta
2nd August 07, 01:43 AM
Nobody worth a shit is. Except Obama, the Great White Hope of liberal politics. Well, you know what I mean.

ICY
2nd August 07, 01:53 AM
Agreed, I hope to (non-existant) God he wins.

bad credit
2nd August 07, 06:04 AM
I knew a loud white redneck who once said that we should elect a black lesbian for prez just once, so nobody could bitch anymore.

I laughed, but now I feel white guilt about it.

Shit, I can't even think of a black lesbian to name for the nomination.

Zendetta
2nd August 07, 09:14 AM
I can and I'd vote for her in a second.

Dagon Akujin
2nd August 07, 11:26 AM
Oprah?

Zendetta
2nd August 07, 12:46 PM
No, but also a good idea.

O/O in '08 - give the Rich Black Folks a turn!!!

fes_fsa
3rd August 07, 01:00 AM
i've been wanting Ron Paul in office for quite some time. either him or Tancredo.

Aaranar
3rd August 07, 02:07 AM
Right now, Obama appears to be the lesser of this pack of weasels, so I've got to go with him.

ICY
3rd August 07, 07:11 AM
Tancredo deserves a bullet in the fucking head. What a useless piece of shit. Anyone who would vote for him is a fucking idiot.

Plasma
3rd August 07, 11:26 AM
Even though he's anti-second amendment?

No candidate is going to agree with me on every issue. However, pragmatism means alot of me and when I lived in NY I watched Time Square get cleaned up and NYC becoming safer and better in general.

When I see the other candidates all i can recall is them yelling about one thing or another but the closest thing to "doing something" I ever saw was them claiming to vote on something.

Sun Wukong
3rd August 07, 04:15 PM
Rudy only did one thing that was truly outstanding as mayor of NYC: he beat down the crime rates and made NYC a much safer place to live in. He took an old and long running problem and fixed it. He was a voracious district attorney and really put the boots to a big portion of the criminal element... along with the poor and homeless.

I don't believe he has the temperance necessary to run the country at all. Especially when he's been covering the Bush admin with endless praise during their entire mis-handling of everything to do with Iraq and international policy.

The only reason I like Ron Paul is that he has the stones to stand up, point at the federal government and say, "You fucked up" regardless of party allegiance.

Zendetta
3rd August 07, 04:30 PM
Hey New Yorkers: How is Bloomberg?

Sun Wukong
3rd August 07, 04:51 PM
MJS, Ron Paul doesn't say fuck social programs, he says they're not the business of GOVERNMENT.

This is where Ron Paul's idealism loses ground to reality. Social programs ARE the role of the government going all the way back to the Roman empire.

It is the government's duty and obligation to ensure a healthy minimum standard of survival in this country. Without social programs for the poor, sick and homeless we would create a backlash inside the lower-class and their posterity in the US who would have virtually no way out of their station.

When I grew up as a kid of a single parent with two other kids life didn't exactly throw us alot of bones. If it weren't for the assistance we got from the government we wouldn't have eaten at all for months at a time, to say nothing of actually having a roof over our heads, and there's no way in hell I could have gone to college. Nor could nearly any other kid who lived near me.

My mom worked full time for years earning no more than minimum wage. The only time she ever got a pay raise was when minimum wage went up. Try feeding, clothing and providing medical care to yourself and 3 kids on 2.55 an hour in 1989. It's not gonna happen.

Then while you're working that minimum wage job and your kids are living in the cheapest housing you can find surrounded by felons, drugs and predators see if you get any sleep at night. I got into fights, I got beat up by ADULTS at the age of fucking 12, I had a gun stuck in my face at the age of 15 by a 14 year old for being white in my own neighborhood, not to mention the threat of pedophiles, constant exposure to every kind of hard core drug you can find on the street; for fuck's sake, crack heads walked right into my god damn house and started looking for shit to pawn while I was at home WATCHING TV in the same fucking room with them.

Social programs aren't exactly a high priority for middle class and upper class surbanite scum whose only exposure to poverty is fucking gangster rap... yeah... that's real fucking accurate illustration of what being poor is like. Fuck that shit.

My point is this: without welfare the country's real problems get alot fucking worse. It goes a long fucking way to diminishing the numbers of people who get stuck on the bottom and become crackheads, diseased hookers, and spend their lives never contributing to society.

ICY
3rd August 07, 05:16 PM
As the child of a single parent, my mother never took anything from the government but public healthcare and education. We moved where it was cheap to live, not to a shitty apartment in the city, but to the country where rent is cheap and we had family (although she could have done it just the same without the family living there). She then started her own cleaning business from nothing, she painted, cleaned, and repaired stuff since she was also a journeyman carpenter (which she became with no assistance from anyone at all) we scraped by for a few months before she landed a couple of decent contracts, and then things were OK again. Now, without any public money for anything, things would have been slightly shittier. We would have done home schooling rather than pay for education and medical bills would have been a bit of a nuisance, but nothing more than that. In addition to these things, members of our church were always willing to help out a struggling single mother (which my mom wasn't), and even without the hard work of my mom, we would never have starved, or lived in a hovel.

The point of this story is not that I don't believe in social programs, I certainly do, it's cheaper to bribe people not to steal (or worse) than it is to have them steal, but if your mom hadn't been unambitious and stupid, and the rest of your family apparently uncaring and callous, you would've had a better life, and it is not an illegitimate political position to say "It's not my problem if you suck, and I'm not giving you money to perpetuate suckiness".

Ron Paul is not as idealistic as you might think, IMO. It's more of a "Ask your church for money, ask your family for money, ask your neighbours for money, but if they don't give it to you, you can rot and die for all I care, and the police will be there to shoot you if you think you're gonna steal my shit" position.

Sun Wukong
3rd August 07, 10:09 PM
"It's not my problem if you suck, and I'm not giving you money to perpetuate suckiness".

This makes for a colorful epiphet, but it's fudamentally empty. Society does not correct itself without significant consequences: Disease, crime, starvation, perpetuation of violence and stricter police measures are a natural consequence. All of those things have terrible side effects which reach every portion of society if left totally unchecked. Look at history and what happens when governments ignore the plight of their poorest members; the communist parties of China, Vietnam and Russia didn't pop up overnight based solely on empty rhetoric from a European political theorist. Marxism provided the vehicle, but the decades of governmental antipathy toward it's citizenry provided the fuel.

Nearly every revolution in history started from the same standpoint. For fuck's sake, have you ever even heard of Marie Antoinette?



Ron Paul is not as idealistic as you might think, IMO. It's more of a "Ask your church for money, ask your family for money, ask your neighbours for money, but if they don't give it to you, you can rot and die for all I care, and the police will be there to shoot you if you think you're gonna steal my shit" position.

This coming from a guy that says social medical care is "fantastic". Live in a glass house much?

Sun Wukong
3rd August 07, 10:19 PM
Seriously, ICY, do you get your political views out of a cracker jack box or do you just spin a wheel to decide?

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
3rd August 07, 10:30 PM
As the child of a single parent, my mother never took anything from the government but public healthcare and education. We moved where it was cheap to live, not to a shitty apartment in the city, but to the country where rent is cheap and we had family (although she could have done it just the same without the family living there). She then started her own cleaning business from nothing, she painted, cleaned, and repaired stuff since she was also a journeyman carpenter (which she became with no assistance from anyone at all) we scraped by for a few months before she landed a couple of decent contracts, and then things were OK again. Now, without any public money for anything, things would have been slightly shittier. We would have done home schooling rather than pay for education and medical bills would have been a bit of a nuisance, but nothing more than that. In addition to these things, members of our church were always willing to help out a struggling single mother (which my mom wasn't), and even without the hard work of my mom, we would never have starved, or lived in a hovel.

The point of this story is not that I don't believe in social programs, I certainly do, it's cheaper to bribe people not to steal (or worse) than it is to have them steal, but if your mom hadn't been unambitious and stupid, and the rest of your family apparently uncaring and callous, you would've had a better life, and it is not an illegitimate political position to say "It's not my problem if you suck, and I'm not giving you money to perpetuate suckiness".

Ron Paul is not as idealistic as you might think, IMO. It's more of a "Ask your church for money, ask your family for money, ask your neighbours for money, but if they don't give it to you, you can rot and die for all I care, and the police will be there to shoot you if you think you're gonna steal my shit" position.

I DON'T BELIEVE IN SOCIAL PROGRAMS BECAUSE MY DAD (WHO WAS BORN WITHOUT LIMBS, ONE EYE, AND HALF OF A TORSO) WORKED HIS WAY OUT OF POVERTY WHILE RAISING TWELVE CHILDREN AND BECOME PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

Jesus, shut the fuck up. Welfare programs aren't about letting poor people be poor, they're above mobilizing them to move up in society. If you really want to punish crackheads and illegal immigrants pay your Nazis to do it, don't deny help to the disadvantaged.

ICY
4th August 07, 02:24 AM
LOL, I wasn't saying I agree with the position, I was just making an arguement from that position. Never had a debate class? I can see the reasons for and validity in just about every political idea ever concieved. Doesn't mean I agree with them.

I vote socialist, I'm a leftist-anarchist, I don't even believe in private property, but I can still see the value in the idea of more complete freedom based on less government intervention.


Welfare programs aren't about letting poor people be poor, they're above mobilizing them to move up in society.

As someone who firmly believes in them, I seriously disagree. It's being way, WAY too ambitious and optimistic to think that. Social programs are about bread and circuses, without them, the empire crumbles unless the vast majority are rich (or in modern terms, at least middle class). So you pay the poor people not to rob you. If you take away welfare, people don't go to work, they go to drug dealing, stealing, and prostitution.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
4th August 07, 05:52 AM
LOL, I wasn't saying I agree with the position, I was just making an arguement from that position. Never had a debate class? I can see the reasons for and validity in just about every political idea ever concieved. Doesn't mean I agree with them.

I vote socialist, I'm a leftist-anarchist, I don't even believe in private property, but I can still see the value in the idea of more complete freedom based on less government intervention.

Sorry, let me try again.

"Watch as I argue the opposing viewpoint! It's okay that my argument is retarded because I disagree with it anyway!"

ICY
4th August 07, 06:24 AM
The arguement is not retarded and you are not emotionally equipped to handle this discussion.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
4th August 07, 06:25 AM
emotionally?

ICY
4th August 07, 06:30 AM
Yes, you don't have requisite maturity to keep control of your emotions in a debate. You allow them to drive your arguements instead of logic and reason. You fail at contemplation. You're not capable of it on an adult level. That's OK, at your age, but it just means there's no point in discussing anything serious with you.

You're a boy trying to discuss things that have plagued men for centuries. There's no reason to expect you to be able to converse on an adult level.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
4th August 07, 06:43 AM
This is why you're wrong:

First, your argument really is that retarded. See:


LOL, I wasn't saying I agree with the position, I was just making an arguement from that position

Why did you decide to stop? I would have ignored this if you had kept defending your original position, but instead you pop out and say "LOL APRIL FOOLS I'M A COMMUNIST".

Second, you're either assuming that I lost my temper or trying to make everyone else think I lost my temper so you can say, "See, what does this dumb kid know that I don't? I'm clearly in the right here."

bob
4th August 07, 06:55 AM
Cracky and MJS are having a semi- rational debate.

Please make it stop. It hurts my head.

ICY
4th August 07, 07:05 AM
You seem to be unable to understand that it was Chris who posted an anecdote, and in response to THAT, I posted an anecdote and a counter arguement, because I found his one-sided view to be over-the-top. I'm not locked in to arguing for that position from now until eternity, you fucking cocksucker.

The points I raised, that you never addressed, were as follows:

-Social programs have an intended purpose (to help society run more smoothly), a purported purpose (to help people in times of difficulty), and an actual effect (to bribe the poor into not stealing) these are not opinions, these are facts, I'm not talking out of my ass

-People in a democratic society have every right to tell other people to fuck right off, they are allowed to vote for people you don't like whose entire purpose is to fuck your social programs in the ass, it is up to you to make sure that doesn't happen, but it doesn't make their position illegitimate, it doesn't matter that you don't like it, it doesn't matter if you don't think it makes sense, economic, moral, or otherwise, you simply are not that important, you are not the judge of political theory, the entire populace is


Second, you're either assuming that I lost my temper or trying to make everyone else think I lost my temper so you can say, "See, what does this dumb kid know that I don't? I'm clearly in the right here."

I'm not assuming you lost your temper, I'm not assuming anything. I'm stating as a plain fact that you lack the capacity for reasoned debate, and I don't need to make everyone else think anything, again, it's an established fact that you're a dumb kid, I don't need to argue for that position in a cock-jousting match with you, everyone has read enough of your posts to have figured it out for themselves by now.

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
4th August 07, 07:16 AM
-Social programs have an intended purpose (to help society run more smoothly), a purported purpose (to help people in times of difficulty), and an actual effect (to bribe the poor into not stealing) these are not opinions, these are facts, I'm not talking out of my ass

You never made that point. As I remember it, neither of us really said anything substantial, just that welfare exists either to help poor people or to make them complacent.


-People in a democratic society have every right to tell other people to fuck right off, they are allowed to vote for people you don't like whose entire purpose is to fuck your social programs in the ass, it is up to you to make sure that doesn't happen, but it doesn't make their position illegitimate, it doesn't matter that you don't like it, it doesn't matter if you don't think it makes sense, economic, moral, or otherwise, you simply are not that important, you are not the judge of political theory, the entire populace is

What does that have to do with anything? When did I say any of that? This was about Ron Paul being an alright candidate if he didn't have such a antagonistic view towards government-funded welfare programs.


I'm not assuming you lost your temper[...]


Yes, you don't have requisite maturity to keep control of your emotions in a debate.

DAYoung
4th August 07, 07:45 AM
You crazy kids.

Why don't we just agree that I'm right, and move on?

MEGA JESUS-SAMA
4th August 07, 07:52 AM
Because you're Australian.

DAYoung
4th August 07, 07:56 AM
I'm a citizen of the world.

Riddeck
4th August 07, 03:32 PM
Social programs aren't exactly a high priority for middle class and upper class surbanite scum whose only exposure to poverty is fucking gangster rap... yeah... that's real fucking accurate illustration of what being poor is like. Fuck that shit.

My point is this: without welfare the country's real problems get alot fucking worse. It goes a long fucking way to diminishing the numbers of people who get stuck on the bottom and become crackheads, diseased hookers, and spend their lives never contributing to society.


What makes you think it will become a high priority for the Upper Echelon that is these presidential candidates? I am sure none of them have a clue of poverty, and if they once believed they did, they no longer do.

When will we see a middle class citizen be able to run for President? Never going to happen. Running for President is more of a money game than it is an actual democratic process.

Sun Wukong
4th August 07, 04:28 PM
Yes, you don't have requisite maturity to keep control of your emotions in a debate. You allow them to drive your arguements instead of logic and reason. You fail at contemplation. You're not capable of it on an adult level. That's OK, at your age, but it just means there's no point in discussing anything serious with you.

You're a boy trying to discuss things that have plagued men for centuries. There's no reason to expect you to be able to converse on an adult level.



Irony! Get your free irony here! Fresh hot irony! It'll all be gone by lunch! Get your Irony here!

Sun Wukong
4th August 07, 04:41 PM
What makes you think it will become a high priority for the Upper Echelon that is these presidential candidates? I am sure none of them have a clue of poverty, and if they once believed they did, they no longer do.

I'm not asking for it to be the primary objective of any presidency. The only candidate that talks about it frequently is Edwards and to be completely honest, I don't trust the man's sincerity when compared to his obvious campaign ploys and strategies.



When will we see a middle class citizen be able to run for President? Never going to happen.

Never, as in, not in our life time? And define middle class... middle class at the time he runs or someone born into the middle class? the latter is rare enough, but it's not totally unheard of.

As for running for president WHILE being middle class, that seems functionally impossible. You wouldn't be able to do nearly enough campaigning to pull it off. You'd have to be a household name before you even tried to run for it to have any chance of success at all. That goes without saying, but if you've got any suggestions on how a person could be both middle class and well known across the country enough for people to give them money to run for presidency on, then I'd say you cracked the code to becoming the first middle-class president.





Running for President is more of a money game than it is an actual democratic process.

This is a chicken before the egg argument; it's a null set with no logical conclusion. The two are completely intertwined.

Arhetton
12th August 07, 08:18 AM
Has anyone here visited all of the candidates sites (from either party), or even just the top three? I have, I'm not even american lol.

When you talk about social welfare, do you mean as in income payments? or do you mean like, health care etc? Because you could basically do a search of each candidates policy, certainly for health.

Social welfare:
Taxes
Health
Education
Welfare payments

Do you mean this whole package, or just one element? Because the candidates have different positions on each, and to just write someone off seems to me pretty strange. Its better to consider what they say, look at their history and listen to how they respond when they are questioned on the topic.

Personally, I think the education debate is over. In 5 years, the internet will have completely revolutionized education. My example of this:

http://lecturefox.com/

I downloaded 2 gigs of math lectures that are a shitload better than the courses I have paid for this year at uni. Computers beat textbooks because of interactivity, simulation etc. Education changes with each new technology to deliver it.

In regards to the other stuff, there are two basic directions:

Socialize the issue
Privatize the issue

Ron Paul is fascinating compared to the other candidates! They are so boring. He wants to abolish the labor tax (income tax), as in, destroy it and replace it with nothing (including your IRS). Privatize healthcare and make competition legal (non compulsory social health care). Same basic idea for education - legalize competition, move towards private (again I've already stated my opinion on education). I've watched some of the longer interviews with him (you can find them at sites like http://dailypaul.com/ some of the best videos are not on youtube) and he answers the questions very well, including the fears of people that his free market rhetoric will leave the poor and homeless out in the cold - this isn't what he plans, the goal is free markets, but the system is gradual reform, introduce competition and incentives.

Ron Paul seems to know his economic shit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTBrJNipytg

He frequently debated alan greenspan who is considered an economic genius

http://www.usagold.com/gildedopinion/greenspan-gold.html

"Good morning, Mr. Greenspan. I understand that you did not take my friendly advice last fall. I thought maybe you should look for other employment, but I see you have kept your job."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWfIhFhelm8

The other candidates are pretty lowsy, nothing inspirational about them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKtuXmorlSY

I think Ron paul is cool. I don't get to vote, but those are my thoughts.

Cullion
12th August 07, 11:05 AM
The thing to remember about Ron Paul is that whilst he's a libertarian, he also firmly believes in the constitution and state's rights.

You can have a republic with a federal government that strictly adheres to the constitution, has a non-interventionist foreign policy etc.. in the Whitehouse through him, and vote for liberal welfare programmes within your state and municipalities and he won't interfere. He just doesn't believe those things to be the job of federal government.

GuiltySpark
12th August 07, 11:54 AM
US isn't ready for a Black president yet in my opinion.

It's sad that anytime you guys DO get a decent guy the SOP is to drag their name through the mud.
I can understand dodging the draft or wounding yourself on purpose to get a medal/ticket home (whatever was up with that)
But some of the shit they come up with is silly.
Find out that he smoked pot when he was 16, cheated on his girlfriend at 18 or something miniscule and it's blown way out.

ICY
12th August 07, 03:33 PM
...and though it seems heaven sent, we ain't ready to see a black president

White America does suck.

Arhetton
15th August 07, 07:42 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nupdcGwIG-g