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View Full Version : Christians Heckle Hindu as he Attempts to Pray in US Senate



Stick
15th July 07, 03:48 PM
Truly tacky, weak sauce.

EZ9To30Hz7A

Odacon
15th July 07, 04:15 PM
Wow your country is an intolerant hellhole.

Stick
15th July 07, 04:17 PM
I'm not sure how to respond to that.

ThaiBoxerShorts
15th July 07, 04:32 PM
I'd respond with "Why yes, yes it is. Have any room for me over there?"

But that's just me.

polishillusion
15th July 07, 04:41 PM
is this the BIG congress, or a state congress in Nevada? If it is the big one, I will puke.

Kiko
15th July 07, 04:43 PM
US Senate. That would be the big one.

I'm hoping it wasn't one of the senators and some tourist, but either way, that's really lame. If it WAS some elected official, I want to know who.

Question!
15th July 07, 04:46 PM
It wasn't one of the senators it was members of the AFA in the public gallery.

ThaiBoxerShorts
15th July 07, 04:48 PM
What does the Air Force Association (http://www.afa.org) have against Hindus?

Stick
15th July 07, 04:51 PM
Yeah?

Que es AFA y donde esta, er.... people we need to abuse?

Kiko
15th July 07, 04:56 PM
Association of Flight Attendants?
American Finance Association?
American Fastpitch Association?
American Federation of Astrologers?
American Ferret Association?

nope..
Intolerant people should be subject to.... more annoyance than they cause. Is it possible to pester someone to death?

Question!
15th July 07, 05:20 PM
American Family Association (http://www.afa.net/). Bitches.

ThaiBoxerShorts
15th July 07, 05:24 PM
Oh. Right. Because as everyone knows, only Christians have families.

Odacon
15th July 07, 05:33 PM
Whats funny is that the heads of all these fundy orgs are pedophiles or cross dressers etc.

Question!
15th July 07, 05:36 PM
http://www.box.net/shared/ia1vza7h7e

StealthNinjaScyther
15th July 07, 07:30 PM
You know, they have a point: they shouldn't be opening the senate with a Hindu prayer...

...just like they shouldn't be opening with a Christian prayer. Separation of Church and State anyone?

Stick
15th July 07, 07:33 PM
You know that's not even remotly the point those people are making. I mean, you heard what they said, right?

I'm all for further seperating church and state and it is a factor in this incident, but attributing such intentions to the folks in this video is pretty silly.

Shawarma
16th July 07, 06:50 AM
What exactly was a Hindu doing in a 95% Christian nations senate praying? This some kind of Embrace Diversity thing?

frumpleswift
16th July 07, 07:10 AM
Wow your country is an intolerant hellhole.

But it is still better than Ireland.

I mean, Ireland isn't exactly free of religious or racial hatred either, now is it.

Iscariot
16th July 07, 08:16 AM
But it is still better than Ireland.

I mean, Ireland isn't exactly free of religious or racial hatred either, now is it.
Yes but when they talk about Creationism in Irish schools it's clearly marked as fictional.

emboesso
16th July 07, 08:43 AM
That was terrible, but I'm not embarassed by a few miscreants in the gallery.

The United States remains one of the most tolerant nations in the world. I'm sure the Indian clergyman himself will tell you someone like a Catholic priest would never get an opportunity to give an invocation prior to a session of the Indian government.

Tom Kagan
16th July 07, 12:05 PM
What exactly was a Hindu doing in a 95% Christian nations senate praying?


75%

mrblackmagic
16th July 07, 12:21 PM
The other 25% are more concerned with passing laws.

WarPhalange
16th July 07, 12:39 PM
That was terrible, but I'm not embarassed by a few miscreants in the gallery.

The United States remains one of the most tolerant nations in the world. I'm sure the Indian clergyman himself will tell you someone like a Catholic priest would never get an opportunity to give an invocation prior to a session of the Indian government.

I hate to admit it, but I agree with everything you said here.

Dagon Akujin
16th July 07, 01:01 PM
For the LAST GODAMN FUCKING TIME, "ONE NATION UNDER GOD" WAS NOT SOMETHING THE "ORIGINAL FOUNDERS" THOUGHT UP. IT CAME ABOUT IN THE 1950'S AS A RESPONSE TO COMMUNISM.

Fuck.

Article link: (http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/07/senate_protester_disruption_of.php)
The man who was arrested for disrupting a Hindu chaplain's prayer in the U.S. Senate on Thursday claims he was "honoring the intentions" of America's founding fathers...

paying tribute to America's founding fathers who openly named "Jesus" in their speeches and documents. Pavkovic, his wife, and his 19-year-old daughter were arrested and charged with misdemeanor unlawful conduct and disrupting Congress.

"We prayed to the Lord, and we were obedient to the founding fathers and the first few generations afterwards."

What fucking founding fathers? What documents? Certainly not the mother-fucking CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES. Certainly not the goddamn FEDERALIST PAPERS or the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDANCE. What founding fathers slathered "Jesus" all over our founding documents? Where? What documents?

Fuck you.

"One Nation Under God"? "In God We Trust"? Had nothing to do with the founding fathers, bitches. Go fuck yourselves with a stop sign, and then fucking cut it out.

Dagon

emboesso
16th July 07, 03:54 PM
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,

Zendetta
16th July 07, 04:02 PM
Deists Rock.

WarPhalange
16th July 07, 04:31 PM
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,

My Creators were my parents.

If not my parents, then literally the big bang.

frumpleswift
16th July 07, 04:53 PM
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,

Creator being the operative word. They didn't acknowledge the Christian god or they would have said 'God'. The founding fathers were largely agnostic, deist, or closet aetheists.

Jefferson especially was NOT a Christian, and referred to Christianity and all other religions as mythology, nothing more.

Question!
16th July 07, 05:55 PM
One thing that perplexes me most about religious arguments is that they automatically assume Creator= Whatever God they worship.

Plasma
16th July 07, 06:01 PM
LOL Jesus. Too bad they feel they have the right to interupt an ancient a proud Hindu Faith with their cult like devovation to a man.

LOL, Jesus. JESUS IS A FALSE GOD

Christians there was a reason you weren't chosen.

fes_fsa
16th July 07, 08:17 PM
LOL Jesus.

LOL Jeezus?

http://www.10secondswithjesus.com/images/BT-jesusshaves-gallery-816.jpg

StealthNinjaScyther
16th July 07, 08:43 PM
You know that's not even remotly the point those people are making. I mean, you heard what they said, right?

I'm all for further seperating church and state and it is a factor in this incident, but attributing such intentions to the folks in this video is pretty silly.

That wasn't what I was going for. I just wanted to point out the ridiculousness of having the prayer in the first place. I give those whack jobs no credit.

And speaking of the founding fathers:


[A]n amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that [the preamble] should read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion"; the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
- Thomas Jefferson in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

emboesso
16th July 07, 08:44 PM
Christians there was a reason you weren't chosen.

Jesus was a Jew.

Are you suggesting Jews are lying, deceitful people?

frumpleswift
16th July 07, 09:03 PM
Jesus was a Jew.

Are you suggesting Jews are lying, deceitful people?

Maybe he's just suggesting that Jesus never existed, ergo was never cut, ergo was not a Jew.

Tom Kagan
16th July 07, 09:28 PM
Creator being the operative word.


Actually, "THEIR" is the operative word. It's not: "the creator". It's not: "our creator".

It is: "their creator".


Jesus was a Jew.

"Yeah, but only on his mother's side." -- Archie Bunker

Sun Wukong
16th July 07, 11:39 PM
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
Please NOTE: Creator does not equal Jesus & Yhwy. They specifically avoided naming the creator involved. Funny language for christians who wanted to propose a JESUS centric autocracy don't you think?

Shawarma
17th July 07, 04:02 AM
I'd say they specifically meant "Christian God" when they said "Creator" and that all of this "Founding Farters were atheist!" business is most likely untrue and semantic nitpicking. Back then you really weren't too concerned about the religious feelings of Joos, Mohammedans or the Hindoo. Seems to me that they most likely only had the various denominations of Christianity in mind when writing it.

Also, the Founding Farters lived 250 years ago. I LOL at all this invocation of the ghosts of Washington and Jefferson, as if their personal opinions rather than the legacy they left behind is the essential thing.

Yiktin Voxbane
17th July 07, 04:45 AM
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g86/Yiktin-Pivot/JESUS_LOL.jpg

frumpleswift
17th July 07, 06:47 AM
I'd say they specifically meant "Christian God" when they said "Creator" and that all of this "Founding Farters were atheist!" business is most likely untrue and semantic nitpicking. Back then you really weren't too concerned about the religious feelings of Joos, Mohammedans or the Hindoo. Seems to me that they most likely only had the various denominations of Christianity in mind when writing it.

You are still wrong about this. They were not Christian...they just had to live in a Christian society, and maintaining pretenses when your neighbors have pitchforks is always advisable. If you had bothered reading this thread, you would have seen where Jefferson specifically included all faiths in his thoughts.

If you have trouble believing that a well educated man living at the tail end of the 18th century didn't believe all of the religious nonsesne, I think you need a refresher on the enlightenment.


Also, the Founding Farters lived 250 years ago. I LOL at all this invocation of the ghosts of Washington and Jefferson, as if their personal opinions rather than the legacy they left behind is the essential thing.

And Jesus (possibly) lived over 2000 years ago. Why do we keep talking about him...he died a long time ago, so we shouldn't care.

Tom Kagan
17th July 07, 06:55 AM
I'd say they specifically meant "Christian God" when they said "Creator" and that all of this "Founding Farters were atheist!" business is most likely untrue and semantic nitpicking.


There is an extensive surviving collection of notes, personal diaries, and letters available from the founding fathers to show you are, in essense, entirely wrong.

Shawarma
17th July 07, 07:11 AM
What you have is a selection of quotes from a few of them. Not proof of any kind. And do you any of you really think they had any God but the Christian one in mind when referring to Our Creator? What other Creator was there to refer to at the time?

Tom Kagan
17th July 07, 07:37 AM
What you have is a selection of quotes from a few of them. Not proof of any kind. And do you any of you really think they had any God but the Christian one in mind when referring to Our Creator? What other Creator was there to refer to at the time?


A selection of quotes? Dude, there are ENTIRE INDIVIDUAL libraries devoted solely to preservation all of their notes, personal diaries, and letters. There are HUNDREDS of books written by historians on the men.



If they meant "our creator", they would have wrote "our creator".

If the meant "the creator", they would have wrote "the creator".

They didn't. They wrote "THEIR creator".


That way, it wouldn't matter if a person's creator were little green aliens, spontaneous *shazam!* mutation out of a primordial goo, or believed they were descendant from a nice shrubbery.

THEIR creator gave them unalienable rights. It was not meant just from/for the Christians.


There is an entire body of work from multiple historians sifting through the founding fathers' libraries on JUST THIS ONE WORD CHOICE.



You wouldn't happen to be "teaching the controversy" right now?


When something in my history is found
Which contradicts the views that I propound
Or shows that I perhaps am not the guy I claim to be
Here's what I usually do

I lie
I simply boldly falsify
I look the other feller in the eye
And just deny, deny, deny
I lie

I don t apologize. Not me. Instead
I say I never said the things I said
Nor did the things some people saw me do
When confronted by some things they know are true

I lie
I simply boldly falsify
I look the other feller in the eye
And just deny, deny, deny
I lie

I hate those weasel words some slickies use
To blur their past or muddy up their views
Not me. I'm blunt. One thing that makes me great
Is that I'll never dodge nor obfuscate

I lie
I simply boldly falsify
I look the other feller in the eye
And just deny, deny, deny
I lie


-- Arlo Guthrie

Shawarma
17th July 07, 09:21 AM
Still don't think they had anyone in mind but the Christian God. I read it as "Whether you're a believer or not in the Christian God."

Tom Kagan
17th July 07, 09:45 AM
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..." -- Article 11, the Treaty of Tripoli, 1797. Unanimously ratified by the U.S. Senate. Signed by President John Adams.

polishillusion
17th July 07, 10:02 AM
I always though that the founding fathers had some weird ideology about "God made earth and now he left it be and doesn't interfere anymore, so we have to set things striaght". It was pretty hard not having an air of Christianity back then in your ideals, and they tried their best to protect their new country from becoming a religious persecutor like England. I mean, a lot of the reason the US was created was because religiously persecuted people wanted to move here, no?

Dagon Akujin
17th July 07, 12:54 PM
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..." -- Article 11, the Treaty of Tripoli, 1797. Unanimously ratified by the U.S. Senate. Signed by President John Adams.

This article mentions Tripoli, and about 100 other things to make the Christian revisionists quake. (http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html)

Here's an article I wrote about the role of religion in the beginnings of the U.S. (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=31836888&blogID=126870680)

Dagon

frumpleswift
17th July 07, 05:43 PM
What you have is a selection of quotes from a few of them. Not proof of any kind. And do you any of you really think they had any God but the Christian one in mind when referring to Our Creator? What other Creator was there to refer to at the time?

By that "logic" we don't know anything about what Plato or Aristotle thought either.

Jefferson also prepared his own version of the bible (http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/), which took out the nativity, any reference to Jesus' divinity, and the resurrection.

Washington refused any priest (of any denomination) at his death bed.

The Founding Fathers (by which we generally refer to the semi-mythical heroes of the revolution/founding of our country) Hamilton, Jefferson, Washington, Mason, etc. were at most desits, and more likely closet aetheists.

The U.S. did not live up to the lofty ideals of our Founding Fathers because the vast majority of the voters were christain, and they elected officials who were sympathetic to their interpretation, and so the majority forced their will on the minority...but that is democracy for you.

Case in point, it is clear that the Founding Fathers meant for non-Christian faiths to be accepted/tolerated, however I have a grade school primer from ~1830 that condemns all non-Christian religions.

So blame the idiot masses for the U.S. history of Christian favortism (except that it has been more tolerant of religion than 99% of the rest of the world*) not the Founding Fathers.

*The Dutch being the big exception.

frumpleswift
17th July 07, 05:46 PM
I always though that the founding fathers had some weird ideology about "God made earth and now he left it be and doesn't interfere anymore, so we have to set things striaght". It was pretty hard not having an air of Christianity back then in your ideals, and they tried their best to protect their new country from becoming a religious persecutor like England. I mean, a lot of the reason the US was created was because religiously persecuted people wanted to move here, no?

Stupid Sociocide:


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Dagon Akujin again.

Shawarma
17th July 07, 05:48 PM
That seems more likely. I still have a problem with the vague assertion that most were "closet atheists." Seems like an attempt to steal the founding fathers away from the Christian Right who usually like to claim a monopoly on them.

Bear with me, though: How is it clear that they wanted tolerance for non-Christians? There weren't any non-Christians faithful in the US at the time, I believe that the Jews, the largest non-Christian religion in the US, didn't arrive until a lot later. It still looks to me as if they said "take your pick, Christianity or not."

Edit: There is a difference between "christianity or not" and "any faith you like", as I'm sure you understand.

frumpleswift
17th July 07, 06:05 PM
That seems more likely. I still have a problem with the vague assertion that most were "closet atheists." Seems like an attempt to steal the founding fathers away from the Christian Right who usually like to claim a monopoly on them.

more like steal them back from the Christian Right who falsely claim them.


Bear with me, though: How is it clear that they wanted tolerance for non-Christians? There weren't any non-Christians faithful in the US at the time, I believe that the Jews, the largest non-Christian religion in the US, didn't arrive until a lot later. It still looks to me as if they said "take your pick, Christianity or not."

The links Dagon gave were very good...the is a book called "The Radical Politics of Thomas Jefferson" that gets a bit into the subject. Otherwise you need to really study the writings of the founding fathers. Since you dismissed a "selection of quotes" you really need to dig into the primary sources.

Zendetta
17th July 07, 06:59 PM
I always though that the founding fathers had some weird ideology about "God made earth and now he left it be and doesn't interfere anymore, so we have to set things striaght".

Deus Abscondicus. God as a Deadbeat Dad.

It was a popular idea among deists and free thinkers - the notion that Somebody made the Universe, but in the manner of a machine ("God the Watchmaker", "the Great Architect" of Masonic Lore, etc) - and then split the scene and left the machinery to rumble on.

Its a paradigm that INVITES science into the picture, because it implies that man could discover the true nature of things and take our true place as god-like beings.

The idea that god stepped out and its up to us to discover the mysteries and build a better world - that is the True "American Way".

frumpleswift
17th July 07, 07:06 PM
Deism was also a way to (narrowly) circumvent the laws against aetheism. It was a capital offence in some parts of Europe, and a harshly punished crime elsewhere.

Kiko
17th July 07, 07:16 PM
I'm sure someone will correct my fuzzy logic, but...

It strikes me as a bit odd that the founding fathers were willing to risk 'our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor', but would be unwilling to be open about their spiritual beliefs.

It doesn't matter to me one way or the other. They clearly acknowledged a creator and as Tom Kagan notes 'their creator' which gives everyone plenty of flexibility.

Honestly, If the religious folk around here spent as much time/energy posting evangelistic stuff as much as others post either doubts or flat out rejection of any faith, they'd be flamed to a crisp!

Plasma
17th July 07, 07:22 PM
Jesus was a Jew.

Are you suggesting Jews are lying, deceitful people?

Jesus (if he existed) was chosen, not the people who choose to worship him.

Tom Kagan
17th July 07, 07:34 PM
Bear with me, though: How is it clear that they wanted tolerance for non-Christians?


"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination." -- Thomas Jefferson, from his autobiography.

Shawarma
17th July 07, 08:24 PM
Guess that pretty much settles it, if it's true.

frumpleswift
17th July 07, 10:08 PM
It strikes me as a bit odd that the founding fathers were willing to risk 'our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor', but would be unwilling to be open about their spiritual beliefs.

Jefferson wasn't actually shy about his beliefs, nor was Franklin. And in all honesty most of the Founding Fathers (if you count everyone who signed the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution) identified with various Christian sects...however the big names on the list (ie Jefferson, Franklin, etc.) played lipservice to religion at best. And the rest were no where near as radical as the evangelical movements in this country that want to claim we are a Christian nation.

And even the founders who were Christian still supported religious freedom, and spoke positively of other religions:

"Such is my veneration for every religion that reveals the attributes of the Deity, or a future state of rewards and punishments, that I had rather see the opinions of Confucius or Mahomed inculcated upon our youth, than see them grow up wholly devoid of a system of religious principles. But the religion I mean to recommend in this place, is that of the New Testament." --Benjamin Rush


Honestly, If the religious folk around here spent as much time/energy posting evangelistic stuff as much as others post either doubts or flat out rejection of any faith, they'd be flamed to a crisp!

I'll happily discuss religion without flames as long as we acknowledge that religion is based on faith and cannot be proven/verified through scientific study.

I mean, I did almost* go to grad school to study Church History. I find religions fascinating, and not in the "oh that's cute look what you believe" way, but in that religions are a profound window into human psychology. I am just not convinced that the benefits of (organized) religion have outweighed the damage they have done.

*Almost meaning I had the acceptance letter and full scholarship in hand, but my wife convinced me that I should get a real job and earn money...because I am, after all, a bourgeoisie capitalist pig

Edit: I had a few more thoughts about religion, and my general negative reaction towards evangelicals.

First off (and you may call me arrogant if you want) I cannot understand any deity that would condemn you to an eternity of hell just for not believing in him/her, especially after the deity gave us so many clues to the contrary.

Furthermore I flat out refuse to follow any deity that would be so capricious as to make his/her presence doubtable or confused to the point where so many different religions existed, then condemn people for choosing the wrong one.

Basically I try to be a good person, and, when I can rouse myself from severe bouts of jadedness, I actually do care about the world and want to steer it in a better direction. If that is not good enough for some hypothetical god, then so be it.

As for evangelicals...they tend to piss me off for two reasons. First of all they tend to assume I have never heard of Jesus or read the bible, when I tend to be more informed than they are...and when I am not, well I know people who translate the gospel from greek to hebrew and back again for a living...so basically, I am not ignorant, and I hate it when they prattle on at me as if I were.

Secondly, when Paul was spreading the word he went from village to village and preached to the Gentile. At each place he went a few people had the spirit enter them, and so he founded his congregations. What he did not do was continue to brow beat the people who were not filled with the spirit. He preached, the spirit entered those whom it choose, and he went on. Paul was satisfied with that. Well...I've heard the sermons, I've been preached to ad nauseam, and the spirit hasn't filled me, so they can stop pestering me already.

frumpleswift
17th July 07, 10:13 PM
Guess that pretty much settles it, if it's true.

Wouldn't that apply to every historical text in existence? I mean people blindly follow texts written and assembled 1500 years ago or more...and you have trouble believing that we have extant autobiographies of Jefferson that show his pronounced Desit leanings?

AAAhmed46
18th July 07, 01:09 AM
That was terrible, but I'm not embarassed by a few miscreants in the gallery.

The United States remains one of the most tolerant nations in the world. I'm sure the Indian clergyman himself will tell you someone like a Catholic priest would never get an opportunity to give an invocation prior to a session of the Indian government.


I have to disagree.

For a long time muslims and hindu relations were strained.

But for the last ten years, things have been dandy.

Sure you got your little rough patches(Hindu/muslim extremists, and yes there are nationalistic hindu extremists, some nuns were murdered once by them)

But relativly rare. Lots of muslims in high positions in the indian government.





And the freaking prime minister is SIKH, in a country predominantly hindu.


India is culturally very diverse, and have been around for a while, a catholic preist would be able to pull it off in the indian government.

Shawarma
18th July 07, 04:55 AM
Was what an Indian I met told me as well. People in India generally don't care a lot about the religious differences of the Indians.

But do they even pray in the Indian parliament? I doubt it. Would be pretty messy with so many people of different faiths rather than the pretty homogenous Christianity of the elected US leaders.

Kiko
18th July 07, 07:09 AM
Jefferson wasn't actually shy about his beliefs, nor was Franklin. And in all honesty most of the Founding Fathers (if you count everyone who signed the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution) identified with various Christian sects...however the big names on the list (ie Jefferson, Franklin, etc.) played lipservice to religion at best. And the rest were no where near as radical as the evangelical movements in this country that want to claim we are a Christian nation.

And even the founders who were Christian still supported religious freedom, and spoke positively of other religions:

"Such is my veneration for every religion that reveals the attributes of the Deity, or a future state of rewards and punishments, that I had rather see the opinions of Confucius or Mahomed inculcated upon our youth, than see them grow up wholly devoid of a system of religious principles. But the religion I mean to recommend in this place, is that of the New Testament." --Benjamin Rush



I'll happily discuss religion without flames as long as we acknowledge that religion is based on faith and cannot be proven/verified through scientific study.

I mean, I did almost* go to grad school to study Church History. I find religions fascinating, and not in the "oh that's cute look what you believe" way, but in that religions are a profound window into human psychology. I am just not convinced that the benefits of (organized) religion have outweighed the damage they have done.

*Almost meaning I had the acceptance letter and full scholarship in hand, but my wife convinced me that I should get a real job and earn money...because I am, after all, a bourgeoisie capitalist pig

Edit: I had a few more thoughts about religion, and my general negative reaction towards evangelicals.

First off (and you may call me arrogant if you want) I cannot understand any deity that would condemn you to an eternity of hell just for not believing in him/her, especially after the deity gave us so many clues to the contrary.

Furthermore I flat out refuse to follow any deity that would be so capricious as to make his/her presence doubtable or confused to the point where so many different religions existed, then condemn people for choosing the wrong one.

Basically I try to be a good person, and, when I can rouse myself from severe bouts of jadedness, I actually do care about the world and want to steer it in a better direction. If that is not good enough for some hypothetical god, then so be it.

As for evangelicals...they tend to piss me off for two reasons. First of all they tend to assume I have never heard of Jesus or read the bible, when I tend to be more informed than they are...and when I am not, well I know people who translate the gospel from greek to hebrew and back again for a living...so basically, I am not ignorant, and I hate it when they prattle on at me as if I were.

Secondly, when Paul was spreading the word he went from village to village and preached to the Gentile. At each place he went a few people had the spirit enter them, and so he founded his congregations. What he did not do was continue to brow beat the people who were not filled with the spirit. He preached, the spirit entered those whom it choose, and he went on. Paul was satisfied with that. Well...I've heard the sermons, I've been preached to ad nauseam, and the spirit hasn't filled me, so they can stop pestering me already.

I think you and I probably agree on more than a practicing Catholic (I) should admit to and I don't think I've seen you flame or insult anyone for their beliefs. Most history is fascinating and that of various religions is no exception. I promise not to pester you. That bit was wise of Paul, but I'm not all that fond of his style and writing for some reason.

Unfortunately, quite alot of the annoying things about religion can be attributed to people, who are, after all, only human. I'd prefer to believe that God is a bit better than we are and isn't a petty, vengeful or arbitrary being. Then again I'm human too, and part of me hopes those who've done stupid, selfish, hurtful and otherwise crappy things in the name of faith will be justly dealt with. Of course that may come under the heading of.. "Hell is other people."