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View Full Version : Prohibition FTW? From what I recall, it don't work to well: An AUS story



Steve
21st June 07, 11:34 PM
But not just booze:

Aborigines banned from booze, porn

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/06/21/australia.pornography.ap/story.howard.gi.jpgCANBERRA, Australia (AP) -- Australia's leader has announced plans to ban pornography and alcohol for Aborigines in some areas, and to tighten control over their welfare benefits to fight what he called a child sex abuse crisis among them.

Prime Minister John Howard was responding to an officially commissioned report last week saying child abuse was rampant in indigenous communities in the Northern Territory, fueled by alcohol abuse, unemployment, poverty and other factors causing a breakdown in civil society.

"This is a national emergency," Howard told Parliament Thursday. "We're dealing with a group of young Australians for whom the concept of childhood innocence has never been present."

Some Aboriginal leaders immediately slammed the plan as paternalistic, saying they had not been consulted about it and that they objected to restricting how indigenous people can spend welfare benefits.

Others applaud the plan's requirement that at least half of area Aborigines' welfare checks be spent on food and other necessities -- a measure aimed to cut spending on gambling and alcohol. They want similar conditions placed on payments in a trial in neighboring Queensland state.

Family welfare payments would also be linked to children's school attendance.

However, some warn that such a system -- applied only to Aborigines -- could breach federal discrimination laws.

Howard announced the measures for the Northern Territory, an Outback region where his federal government retains powers that it doesn't have over Australia's six states, and urged state leaders to apply similar tough rules in their jurisdictions.

The new measures would apply to about half of the sprawling Northern Territory, on land that has been returned to Aboriginal ownership under federal law over the past 30 years.

The sale, possession and transportation of alcohol would be banned for six months on the Aboriginal-owned land, Howard said, and sales would be reviewed after that.

The child abuse report said drinking was a key contributor to Aboriginal culture's collapse, and to neglect of children and creating opportunities for pedophiles.

Hardcore pornography, which the report found was rife in Aboriginal communities and available to children -- who were thus desensitized to sex with adults, and who sometimes act out scenes with each other -- also would be banned.

Publicly funded computers would be audited to ensure that they had not been used to download such images, the government said.

Some Aboriginal leaders immediately condemned the plan -- which the government had not previously indicated it was considering -- saying it exemplified government behavior that has disenfranchised their people and created social problems in the first place.

"I'm absolutely disgusted by this patronizing government control," said Mitch, a member of a government board helping Aborigines who were taken from their parents under past assimilation laws.

"And tying drinking with welfare payments is just disgusting," said Mitch, who uses only one name.

"If they're going to do that, they're going to have to do that with every single person in Australia, not just black people," she said.

Some civic leaders fear further alcohol restrictions could drive troublemakers off Aboriginal land into Northern Territory towns and cities, to live and drink on the streets.

Many Aboriginal communities already ban or restrict alcohol. Their residents sometimes travel to towns for drinking binges.

"We'd be concerned about anything that led to more people coming to town seeking alcohol," said Geoff Brooks, chief executive office of the Katherine Town Council.

The federal government can change laws in the territory with an act of Parliament, where Howard has a majority that ensures he can implement his policy.

Howard also urged state governments to send police to the Northern Territory to address an Aboriginal land shortage.

About 60,000 of Australia's roughly 400,000 Aborigines live in the Northern Territory -- the highest proportion of indigenous residents anywhere in the country.

Many live in isolated, impoverished communities where jobs are scarce and substance abuse is widespread.

Aborigines are a tiny minority among Australia's 21 million people.

They suffer much higher poverty and addiction rates, and other problems. Their life expectancy is 17 years shorter than that of other Australians.

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Link. (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/06/21/australia.pornography.ap/index.html)

We all know this will not work. If people can't get something they want legally, guess what? They'll then get it illegally. Address the problem and fix it, don't make putting people with the problem in jail the solution.

When will people learn?

AAAhmed46
21st June 07, 11:41 PM
wow...if it's so rampant in amborinees(im aware of my crappy spelling) who have porn and booz while white people also have porn and booze but dont have the same problem.........

Maybe the porn and booze are not the issue.

ironlurker
21st June 07, 11:48 PM
wow...if it's so rampant in amborinees(im aware of my crappy spelling) who have porn and booz while white people also have porn and booze but dont have the same problem.........

Most the porn and booze are not the issue.
They may have a biologically-heightened sensitivity to alchohol and propensity to alchoholism. I don't know if it's the case with the Native Australians but it might be similar to the situation with Native Americans.

Steve
22nd June 07, 12:09 AM
It is. But my point stands, Howard's idea won't work, IMO.

Steve
22nd June 07, 12:19 AM
CNN sucks, btw.

Northern Territory grog ban

Prime Minister John Howard has announced a six-month ban on alcohol in indigenous communities across the Northern Territory.

The move is one of a series of measures in response to a major Northern Territory report last week which revealed widespread child abuse in indigenous communities, fuelled in part by alcohol.

"We regard this as akin to a national emergency," Mr Howard said in Canberra.

Detailing measures to be taken, he said: "In relation to alcohol the intention is to introduce widespread alcohol restrictions on Northern Territory Aboriginal land for six months.

"We will ban the sale, the possession, the transportation, the consumption and [introduce the] broader monitoring of takeaway sales across the Northern Territory."

The Federal Government would legislate to intervene in the territory to enact measures to combat child abuse, Mr Howard said.

He said 50 per cent of welfare payments through Centrelink to parents of children in affected areas would be quarantined to prevent all their money being spent on alcohol.

"The obligation in relation to that will follow the parent wherever that parent may go so the obligation cannot be avoided simply by moving to another part of Australia.

"Effectively, the arrangements will be that that 50 per cent can only be used for the purchase of food and other essentials."

Mr Howard also announced the Commonwealth would make welfare payments dependent on children attending school.

"We're going to enforce school attendance by linking income support and family assistance payments to school attendance for all people living on Aboriginal land," he said.

"We will be ensuring that meals are provided to children at school, with parents paying for the meals."

The Federal Government would take control of Aboriginal townships through five-year leases to improve property and public housing, Mr Howard said, adding that compensation would be forthcoming if required.

Mr Howard said the reforms would include scrapping the permit system for common areas and road corridors on Aboriginal lands, and marshalling work-for-the-dole participants to clean up Aboriginal communities.

Possession of X-rated pornography would be banned and all publicly-funded computers searched for evidence of stored pornography, he said.

Mr Howard said law and order would be a central focus of the dramatic measures.

"There will be an immediate increase in policing efforts," he said.

"We'll be asking each state police service to provide up to 10 officers who will be sworn as police in the Northern Territory."

The Government will also set up an Australian Government sexual abuse reporting desk.

Mr Howard said there will be a meeting next Thursday of the intergovernmental committee on the Australian Crime Commission.

"At the meeting our minister will ask the ministerial council to formally refer this issue to the Australian Crime Commission to allow the crime commission to locate and identify perpetrators of sexual abuse of indigenous children in other areas of Australia."

Mr Howard said at cabinet's next meeting Indigenous Affairs Minister Mal Brough would present further proposals to extend the conditionalities of welfare payments to other welfare recipients.

"To ensure that these payments are used for the benefit of the children," he said.

He said Parliament would come back during the winter break, if needed, to deal with the legislation required to implement the initiative.

Mr Brough said cabinet would consider conditions on which measures requiring welfare payments to be devoted to the benefit of indigenous children would be extended to all other welfare recipients.

He said that particularly applied to the family tax benefit, but included all payments intended to assist children.

"The Australian population has a real desire to see that money only spent on the welfare of children. That has been our clear objective," he said.

"In addition to that is of course school education. You shouldn't have a black or white boundary. Every child should be going to school and if this can help do that, then they are two areas we are current examining and we will have further to say after the cabinet."

Seizure of land 'will take indigenous people back 40 years'

Sydney Metropolitan Local Aboriginal Land Council chair Rob Welsh said he had not yet seen the details of the proposed measures, but that the seizure of Aboriginal land would take indigenous people back 40 years.

"It's total control of Aboriginal destinies. They've been trying to do it with housing right across Australia.

"That land has cultural significance because there are things that connect people to the land over centuries."

He said Aboriginal people had little trust in governments to deal sensitively with land.

"As soon as we start giving it back it's going to be mined and have waste dumped on it."

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Link. (http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/northern-territory-grog-ban/2007/06/21/1182019254302.html)

Question!
22nd June 07, 12:39 AM
NOT THE PR0N!

ironlurker
22nd June 07, 10:54 AM
It is. But my point stands, Howard's idea won't work, IMO.

If you mean the part about banning alchohol and porn, yeah that's going to be a fool's errand most likely.

The part about them being required to spend so much of their welfare on food, etc. seems more or less the same as food stamps/WIC to me. '

It's tough but when there's a situation with such horrible despair what do you? Yes, what do "you" do is obviously paternalistic . . . but what's the alternative? Going to a stamps-type program might make it a tiny bit more difficult to spend all your welfare money on booze. Yeah I know people screw around with foodstamps etc. although it's harder now then it was.

WarPhalange
22nd June 07, 11:25 AM
Wait wait wait... a nation of outlaws wants another population to follow their laws? LAWL

Steve
23rd June 07, 12:25 AM
If you mean the part about banning alchohol and porn, yeah that's going to be a fool's errand most likely.

That is indeed what I mean.

danno
24th June 07, 10:38 AM
i'm not sure about it myself, but the situation is pretty extreme. i went to school from kindergarten to year 2 in wilcannia, a mostly aboriginal town in western NSW. just when i was starting year 3, we moved to dubbo which was larger and mostly white. at that point i knew the alphabet and could count, that was it. i couldn't read 3 letter words. i'd essentially had no education up until year 3.

this was because of the environment in wilcannia. there was no way i could learn there. i remember riots, getting beaten up, bottles thrown at me, kids walking around throwing knives at the walls in the school, teachers getting attacked, teachers breaking down and crying in class, aboriginal kids coming to school stinking of shit because their alcoholic parents didn't look after them. as soon as people were paid their welfare, they spent it on alcohol.

dad was a police officer there and he saw kids dying from neglect. in austopsies babies would be cut open and there would be the stench of alcohol - they had been given alcohol to shut them up. there was pedophilia, rape, murder. i could go on, this was my experience as a child.

not all aboriginal communities are like this, but for those who are, something drastic needs to be done. i'm not sure exactly what, but these people need help. they've needed help for many years now. surely, banning alcohol can't make things any worse. i'm not totally sold on it, but it's worth a try.

Odacon
24th June 07, 11:17 AM
Grog. Best alcohol slang word ever lol.

ironlurker
24th June 07, 01:41 PM
i'm not sure about it myself, but the situation is pretty extreme.
Right, when you have a situation as extreme as you describe people/the government/etc will want to do something. Is the welfare given out as checks there? Around here they use debit cards now in some states, and I think it might be more effective if they could just make them unusable at liquor stores, etc.

DAYoung
24th June 07, 05:17 PM
I understand the need for an immediate solution, but we need to be careful about what we celebrate.

Howard's known about this for years. The timing is election-oriented, and it's unclear how much commitment there'll be beyond the election.

But still, let's assess the plan itself. I'll begin with porn, because I think it's a red herring. Pornography's implicated in the desensitisation of kids, but it's not a central causal factor. Plenty of kids in wealthy, middle-class families encounter porn, but aren't subject to abuse. The greater difference is education, health, family coherence, income, and so on - the classic markers of class and status.

I'm not suggesting middle-class kids don't get abused - of course they do. But these problems seem to be chronic and acute in poor, marginalised groups, particularly those on the fringes of society. Where men are angry, weak, drug-dependent and helpless, they'll often prey on those weaker than them - sometimes this means their wives or kids, other times it means ethnic groups, other times it means animals. THIS is what needs changing.

So: will Howard's plan help this? IF it can help to reduce alcohol abuse, it might help. IF it can detect and prevent sexual abuse with doctor intervention (see bottom letter here (http://www.theage.com.au/letters/index.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1)) i might help.

But without provision for a broader development of Indigenous health as a whole, it'll make no difference. Aboriginals have incredibly poor life expectancy, integration in society (which either requires more integration or autonomous delinking), job opportunity, and so on - all the classic markers of poor physical and mental health. The problems are structural, and need a structural approach - I doubt this is it, but we'll see.

danno
24th June 07, 08:24 PM
i agree. i see people who live in these places as this sort of shattered culture. it's fucked from the ground up and needs more than a ban on this or that.

if i'd stayed there, i would have ended up completely uneducated and had who knows what kind of other problems.

but i think that a short term helper might be the ban of alcohol, at least worth a try. these people really do their worst when they are drunk.

danno
24th June 07, 08:29 PM
Right, when you have a situation as extreme as you describe people/the government/etc will want to do something. Is the welfare given out as checks there? Around here they use debit cards now in some states, and I think it might be more effective if they could just make them unusable at liquor stores, etc.

i actually don't know what they used. i never saw where they got their money from, i'd have to ask dad.

i also lived in a small country town which was maybe 40% aboriginal when i was in year 6 to 12. it wasn't nearly as bad as wlicannia, but still not great. parents would let their kids drop out of school in year 7. seems like puberty meant you could smoke and drink too. i knew 11 year old kids who'd been involved in orgies.

in this town years ago there was a 17 year old boy who raped and killed his auntie with a friend. they mutilated her, pulled organs out. then threw her on top of an ant nest so they'd eat the body. this was in the bushland about 400 metres away from the local school.

DAYoung
24th June 07, 08:51 PM
That's some deep-seated psychopathology.

How did you emerge reasonably sane?

danno
24th June 07, 10:01 PM
That's some deep-seated psychopathology.

How did you emerge reasonably sane?

you don't know the half of it. well, my mother is one of the greatest human beings i have ever met. any sanity i have i attribute to her.

DAYoung
24th June 07, 10:04 PM
you don't know the half of it. well, my mother is one of the greatest human beings i have ever met. any sanity i have i attribute to her.

Good on you, Danno's Mum.

Your boy's alright for a Communist freedom-hating Pinko arty-farty doorman.

danno
24th June 07, 10:18 PM
and atheist. you forgot atheist. which apparently means i'm bereft of any moral grounding.

DAYoung
24th June 07, 10:22 PM
and atheist. you forgot atheist. which apparently means i'm bereft of any moral grounding.

True.

YO MOMMA DONE RAISED A NIHILIST.

danno
24th June 07, 10:43 PM
hehehe.

she let me believe whatever i wanted. she's pretty much agnostic herself, but leans towards the idea of a god. but she left it up to me to decide how i saw the universe, and this is how i turned out. stone cold atheist. i believed in god as a child though.

but yeah, these people are not only disadvantaged in the more obvious ways, but mentally fucked up too. you can imagine from my little anecdotes how people would turn out. i think it's something that will take a number of generations to repair.

ironlurker
25th June 07, 01:14 PM
YO MOMMA DONE RAISED A NIHILIST.
Shunyavadin sounds better and gets hotter chicks.

DAYoung
25th June 07, 04:20 PM
Shunyavadin sounds better and gets hotter chicks.

I like it.

I'm surprised T.S. Eliot didn't use it in 'The Wasteland'.

danno
27th June 07, 08:00 PM
Aboriginal leaders involved in abuse: Mundine

Indigenous leader and former ALP national president Warren Mundine has accused some Aboriginal leaders of being involved in child abuse in remote communities.

Mr Mundine made the claim as he slammed critics of the Commonwealth's plan to curb child abuse in the Northern Territory.

Mr Mundine says strong intervention is needed and he is not concerned about an apparent lack of consultation with Aboriginal leaders.

He says some Indigenous leaders speaking out against the plan are protecting their own interests.

"How do you think these people got away with it for years and years and years?" he asked.

"It's because some of these people in the leadership and some of these people in these communities are the perpetrators.

"So they've been protecting their arses for so long now ... we've got to be very mindful of that as well."

Troops on the ground

Meanwhile the Federal Government will be assessing more remote communities in central Australia today as it rolls out the first stage of its intervention.

Yesterday an assessment team made up of Norforce troops, police and public servants visited the Mutitjulu community near Uluru and held a meeting with community members.

Government representatives told those gathered the first step of the plan would be to make Mutitjulu safe.

They said community services would then be rolled out and medical teams would be brought in to provide health checks for children, with Norforce setting up temporary accommodation for any extra people.

The team will move onto other communities today.

'Use alcohol taxes'

In other developments, the co-author of the report on Aboriginal child sex abuse in the Northern Territory has suggested Federal alcohol taxes be used to pay for solutions to the problem.

Rex Wild QC has criticised the Federal Government's emergency response, saying it will get the backs of Aboriginal people up because it involves sending in teams of strangers to communities.

He has questioned the need for the generous contributions made by private benefactors to addressing the problems in Aboriginal communities, saying it is a government responsibility.

"The alcohol taxes that are received by the Federal Government amount to something like $6 billion a year," he told ABC TV's Lateline program.

"Now they spend a miserly portion of that in education, in alcohol reform programs. Why not give that $6 billion to the problem that we're now addressing?"

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/06/28/1964209.htm

ironlurker
27th June 07, 09:14 PM
WWGWBD?

kick
29th June 07, 02:18 AM
I grew up in Darwin in the Northern Territory, like Danno I have seen all these places.

They are very messed up, there is no easy solution.

I think the Prohibition will fail, when they originally banned alcohol, they started sniffing petrol, then sniffing aersol cans, and spray cans, then sniffing fire extinguishers, (2 kids in my class died doing this.) then they started drinking kava down from PNG.

Then they smoked dope, I hear now, some of the kids are killing cane toads and drying the skin, rolling it up and smoking it.

You can only find and replace, if you take away one form of drugs, you must replace it with something else, or it will be simply replaced with another form of drugs.

These guys are out in the bush and have nothing to do, they used to hunt for food, and that would fill there time, but now it is all given to them, maybe they need the internet to distract them.

Yiktin Voxbane
29th June 07, 02:49 AM
Problem is, tEh intrawebnet thingo has the pRon on heem .

As we have previously read, Das ist VERBOTTEN !

danno
29th June 07, 03:25 AM
I grew up in Darwin in the Northern Territory, like Danno I have seen all these places.

They are very messed up, there is no easy solution.

I think the Prohibition will fail, when they originally banned alcohol, they started sniffing petrol, then sniffing aersol cans, and spray cans, then sniffing fire extinguishers, (2 kids in my class died doing this.) then they started drinking kava down from PNG.

Then they smoked dope, I hear now, some of the kids are killing cane toads and drying the skin, rolling it up and smoking it.

You can only find and replace, if you take away one form of drugs, you must replace it with something else, or it will be simply replaced with another form of drugs.

These guys are out in the bush and have nothing to do, they used to hunt for food, and that would fill there time, but now it is all given to them, maybe they need the internet to distract them.

i tell you what, i didn't really think of that. i've never lived in a place where they banned alcohol.

ironlurker
29th June 07, 01:47 PM
I think the Prohibition will fail, when they originally banned alcohol, they started sniffing petrol, then sniffing aersol cans, and spray cans, then sniffing fire extinguishers, (2 kids in my class died doing this.) then they started drinking kava down from PNG.


In the US reservations, some of the most alcoholic residents make what is called a "a lysol sandwich" which consists of puncturing the can and holding pieces of white bread over the hole until they get sopping with the lysol and then eat them. (lysol is an aerosol cleaning spray if you guys don't have that brand there)

kick
1st July 07, 06:12 PM
In the US reservations, some of the most alcoholic residents make what is called a "a lysol sandwich" which consists of puncturing the can and holding pieces of white bread over the hole until they get sopping with the lysol and then eat them. (lysol is an aerosol cleaning spray if you guys don't have that brand there)

Damn that is messed up.

Is that Synergy, eating and cleaning products at the same time?