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Question!
19th June 07, 12:22 AM
Rushdie title 'may spark attacks'


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/south_asia_enl_1182180937/img/laun.jpg (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/south_asia_enl_1182180937/html/1.stm)
Protests in the Pakistani city of Quetta against Rushdie's award
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/inline_dashed_line.gif
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/icons/open_icon.gifEnlarge Image (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/south_asia_enl_1182180937/html/1.stm)

Britain's knighthood to the author Salman Rushdie contributes to insulting Islam and may lead to terrorism, a Pakistani minister has said.

Such actions are the root cause of terrorism, Religious Affairs Minister Ejaz-ul-Haq told parliament.

The minister later said he had not meant to condone or incite terrorism but stress its origins.

Pakistan's parliament has condemned the knighthood. Iran says it shows "Islamophobia" among British officials.

Mr ul-Haq was speaking during a session of Pakistan's National Assembly in which it unanimously condemned Britain's award of a knighthood to the author Salman Rushdie and demanded it be withdrawn.

His comments in the Urdu language caused uproar.

"If someone commits suicide bombing to protect the honour of the Prophet Mohammad, his act is justified," he said, according to the translation by the Reuters news agency.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/43053000/jpg/_43053349_salman_bbc203b.jpg Sir Salman says he is thrilled by the honour

"If Britain doesn't withdraw the award, all Muslim countries should break off diplomatic relations."

Opponents accused Mr ul-Haq of inciting violence.

Later he returned to the floor of the assembly and said his remarks were not meant to be a justification of suicide attacks.

Mr ul-Haq is a well known Islamic hardliner. He is the son of former President Zia ul-Haq who carried out a process of 'Islamisation' in Pakistan before dying in a plane crash in 1988.

Iran criticism

The resolution passed by the lower house of parliament said that honouring Salman Rushdie "hurt Muslim sentiments".

Sir Salman's book The Satanic Verses sparked protests by Muslims around the world and led to Iran issuing a fatwa in 1989, ordering his execution.
Iran also criticised the knighthood, saying praising the "apostate" showed Islamophobia among British officials.

A spokesman for the British High Commission in Islamabad would not comment on the parliamentary resolution, but he said the knighthood was a reflection of Mr Rushdie's contribution to literature throughout a long and diverse career.

Like Iran, Pakistan is an Islamic republic with an overwhelmingly Muslim population which saw violent protests against The Satanic Verses in 1989.
Pakistan's parliamentary affairs minister Sher Afgan Khan Niazi, who proposed the resolution, said the knighthood would "encourage people to commit blasphemy against the Prophet Mohammad".
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif HAVE YOUR SAY
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote_rb.gif The religious bigots really need to get over the Satanic Verses http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote_rb.gif


Paul Gardner, UK
Send us your comments (http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=6624&edition=1&ttl=20070615201214)

Sir Salman, 59, was one of almost 950 people to appear on the Queen's Birthday Honours list, which is aimed at recognising outstanding achievement.

The controversial Indian-born author's fourth book - The Satanic Verses in 1988 - describes a cosmic battle between good and evil and combines fantasy, philosophy and farce.

It was immediately condemned by the Islamic world because of its perceived blasphemous depiction of the prophet Muhammad.

It was banned in many countries with large Muslim communities and in 1989, Ayatollah Khomeini, Iran's spiritual leader, issued a fatwa.

In 1998, the Iranian government said it would no longer support the fatwa, but some groups have said it is irrevocable.

The following year, Sir Salman returned to public life.

Of his knighthood for services to literature, Rushdie said: "I am thrilled and humbled to receive this great honour, and am very grateful that my work has been recognised in this way."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6763119.stm

AAAhmed46
19th June 07, 12:57 AM
You know, he exploited that controversy.

But meh, who gives a fuck. Honestly, it was what? ten years ago? TWenty? Old news, we have bigger bigger problems to deal with then this guy.

Harpy
19th June 07, 01:05 AM
Muslims are funny.

AAAhmed46
19th June 07, 01:10 AM
Yeah, we get mad at stupid shit.

Severe
19th June 07, 06:07 AM
if only they ignored him he wouldnt be so famous. any publicity is good publicity. even if hes up for pipe bomb in the mail, he truly has teh last laugh.

emboesso
19th June 07, 07:21 AM
http://bokertov.typepad.com/btb/images/cartoon_danish_mohammed.jpg


Due to the content of this post, henceforth I have earned the privilege to the title of Sir Emboesso.

Art should be evocative, not provocative. Rushdie isn't an artist, he's a shock jock with a pen. Yes, the reaction is way overboard, which is exactly what Rushdie wanted. A genuine artist could have found much sublter ways to evoke thoughts in people to re-examine aspects of their faith.

Giving this guy a knighthood is the equivalent to giving one to an old-time cartoonist who drew "coon kid eating watermelon" pictures.

Shawarma
19th June 07, 07:26 AM
You know, I have never heard of anyone speaking on the actual merit of Rushdie as a writer, nor have I ever read any of his stuff. I read some passages from Suliman the Clown, or whatever it was called, and it seemed rather pompous and lacking writing skill. Anyone know whether he's a good writer, beyond the hee-larious controversy?

Truculent Sheep
19th June 07, 07:33 AM
His earlier work is good, but he's wandered up his own arse in recent years.

Nonetheless, he has some interesting thoughts on the present world situation:

http://news.independent.co.uk/people/profiles/article1868548.ece

Anyway, we should have an 'interesting' riot in London on Friday when all the zealots and nutters come out from prayers. You never get this level of shit from Quakers.

john joe
19th June 07, 07:43 AM
these dickheads just need to shut the fuck up. Instead of all the liberal west establishement stroking their chins and saying right, yes, we understand how you might be provoked by minor things like this, yes your right, terrorism is actually our fault,

They should just tell them to fuck off. Literally, a gigantic banner bearing the message "Hey Muslims - Fuck Off" hanging from the back of a plane, flying endless loops over key muslim cities such as Islamabad, Mecca and London.

Truculent Sheep
19th June 07, 08:26 AM
Don't forget the old 'satanic mill' towns 'oop north', where Islamic extremism (and white racism) abounds...

http://www.salfordadvertiser.co.uk/news/s/136/136697_jihad_cry_prompts_condemnation.html

Kiko
19th June 07, 08:34 AM
Mr. Butt. Wonder if he knows the toilet paper thief?

Nah..

Truculent Sheep
19th June 07, 08:41 AM
Butt's a pretty common Pakistani surname. I knew a nice girl in the sixth form with it - she was normal and friendly, but also rather secular. You may draw your own conclusions.

Kiko
19th June 07, 08:46 AM
I was about to ask. The article said he's from Manchester, and I honestly couldn't tell from the photo where he/his family came from. Sounds like angry youth to me, but I have to wonder what older Muslims think about these younger ones.

Truculent Sheep
19th June 07, 09:21 AM
A lot of older muslims in the UK are very conservative and mysoginistic/anti-modernist, but this reflects the outlook of pre-Islamist Pakistan and a stodgy, rather than radicalised, approach to Islam.

So while they gasp in horror at British culture and can be quite unpleasant in their own way, they see the young radicals as every bit as scary as they too aren't 'traditional' and reject the old school Islam. That said, the outlook of some radicals are rooted in their parents' own chauvinistic attitudes.

To complicate matters even further, there are some (traditionally) devout Muslims who try their best to integrate and others who are ostensibly secular but complete arseholes in their attitudes towards the West, non-Muslims and women.

Compound that with young muslims who might sympathise with the radicals but drink booze, moderate young muslims who are keener on the more spiritual (rather than dogmatic) side of their religion, the nutters who want to blow themselves up and the ones who go to the mosque 'cos they don't want to upset their mums, and you get a better picture of what is a very troubled, conflicted religious community.

And that's just in the South. Bear in mind, too, that there are Turkish muslims, Pakistani Muslims, Bangledeshi Muslims, Somalian Muslims and Bosnian Muslims (and more) in the UK. While a lot of right-wing blogs view UK Islam as an ever-growing homogenous threat, it's actually quite shizo and at its own throat. Then again, the government also misses this point, as seen in its pandering to self-appointed 'community leaders' and 'muslim sensibilities', as if there is only one kind of British Muslim, as opposed to about 10,000 sub-varieties...

john joe
19th June 07, 10:39 AM
thing is, these young lads - and especially young asian muslims - take the piss. they drink, smoke and sell weed, cause a lot of anti social problems by racing cars in the streets and blasting music all hours of the night in residential areas, they are brought up to think that it is ok to abuse and grope white 'whores' in the street, then cry racism when girls dont want to know them, they want it all their own way and the bleeding heart liberals give it them.

ironlurker
19th June 07, 10:54 AM
A lot of older muslims in the UK are very conservative and mysoginistic/anti-modernist, but this reflects the outlook of pre-Islamist Pakistan and a stodgy, rather than radicalised, approach to Islam.

So while they gasp in horror at British culture and can be quite unpleasant in their own way, they see the young radicals as every bit as scary as they too aren't 'traditional' and reject the old school Islam. That said, the outlook of some radicals are rooted in their parents' own chauvinistic attitudes.

Good job on noting that distinction, I hate how the media uses vague words like "conservative" in reference to Muslims to completely blur it. Traditionalists, reformists, and radicals differ in significant ways as you said. In fact, sometimesso-called "fundamentalists" are actually much more modernizing (in terms of such things as female participation) then culture-bound traditionalists, being "radical" in the precise definition of the word.


Then again, the government also misses this point, as seen in its pandering to self-appointed 'community leaders'
^This drives me fucking crazy. Any time there's a racial/religious/ethnic dispute or controversy in the US you're bombarded with the "community leaders" and how important their opinions are. I think it's a result of government ignorance + media laziness. The important members of a "community" (which is a stupid term to begin with) are busy, oh, I don't know, WORKING as opposed to giving media interviews on outrage.

This is highly relevant to such much publicized so-called "Muslim" protests and flag-and-queen-burning-parades we see. Unemployment is at massive levels in most nominally Muslim countries, and among Muslims in the UK as well. This is from the national statistics site for the UK:


Unemployment rates for Muslims are higher than those for people from any other religion, for both men and women.

In 2004, Muslims had the highest male unemployment rate in Great Britain, at 13 per cent . . .

Unemployment rates were highest among those aged under 25 years for all religious groups. Muslims aged 16 to 24 years had the highest unemployment rates. They were over twice as likely as Christians of the same age to be unemployed 28 per cent compared with 11 per cent.

Although unemployment rates for older Muslims were lower, there was a greater difference between their unemployment rates and those for people from other religious backgrounds. Muslims aged 25 and over were more than three times as likely as Christians of the same age to be unemployed 11 per cent and 3 per cent respectively. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=979

The greater part of participants in these "riots" and "protests" are quite literally bums: the lumpenproletariat, both violent and reactionary.

Truculent Sheep
19th June 07, 11:22 AM
thing is, these young lads - and especially young asian muslims - take the piss. they drink, smoke and sell weed, cause a lot of anti social problems by racing cars in the streets and blasting music all hours of the night in residential areas, they are brought up to think that it is ok to abuse and grope white 'whores' in the street, then cry racism when girls dont want to know them, they want it all their own way and the bleeding heart liberals give it them.

But that can be said of young lads who are white and black and of no faith at all. They all share similar attitude problems and all treat women like dirt. It's the excuses that vary, is all. They all feel similar levels of self-pity and victimhood too, but again for different reasons.

You're sort of right in one regard, though - society is too soft on all of them.

ironlurker
19th June 07, 11:34 AM
But that can be said of young lads who are white and black and of no faith at all. They all share similar attitude problems and all treat women like dirt. It's the excuses that vary, is all. They all feel similar levels of self-pity and victimhood too, but again for different reasons.

You're sort of right in one regard, though - society is too soft on all of them.
Or, the economic project of maintaining a pool of the unemployed through the twin avenues of state clientism and absurdly contradictory immigration policies has the added bonus of fostering assholism that makes the middle class demand more government control and intervention

Truculent Sheep
19th June 07, 11:52 AM
Another way of looking at it is as several dumb, macho cultures that wallow in their peasanthood and which don't value aspiration. The welfare state, which gives handouts without reference to prior contributions - in contrast to how it was meant to work - is an ideal way of supporting this behaviour. (Then again, so's drug-dealing, petty crime, unskilled labour and parasitism.)

It's in no one's interest to have layabouts, but the benefits system's very bureacratic nature means it can be manipulated. Far from being a conspiracy, this is just an inevitable side effect.

ironlurker
19th June 07, 12:25 PM
Another way of looking at it is as several dumb, macho cultures that wallow in their peasanthood and which don't value aspiration. The welfare state, which gives handouts without reference to prior contributions - in contrast to how it was meant to work - is an ideal way of supporting this behaviour. (Then again, so's drug-dealing, petty crime, unskilled labour and parasitism.)

It's in no one's interest to have layabouts, but the benefits system's very bureacratic nature means it can be manipulated. Far from being a conspiracy, this is just an inevitable side effect.
A culture doesn't beat a woman, a culture doesn't refuse to work at McDonalds because it's below them, a culture doesn't smoke crack, etc. Actual human beings do these things. While their outlook is culturally conditioned, they do exercise agency, which is why culture hasn't remained identical for the last 100,00 years.

You can't say "their culture sucks and is responsible" and then say at the same time "they are to blame for being layabouts".

And yes, it is in the interest of certain groups to have layabouts. That's a fact. It's called a pool of surplus labor. In the 1990's in the US, unemployment was at the lowest rate in decades. Employers were forced to crank up productivity as much as they could to maximize profits. But you can only increase productivity so far- the long-term answer is the import of a massive group of apolitical, uneducated workers.

"Layabout" status is also valuable because a worker who goes in and out of the labor pool won't build up experience and demand promotion. Hence the looonng probationary periods for many unskilled jobs as opposed to the iron-clad guarantees of the labor aristocracy union jobs.

This is the other benefit of having the layabouts:
http://imgred.com/http://www.forumspile.com/Rape-ScaryBlackDude.jpg

^Their constant threat keeps the ambitious middle class in line. Those who have created the very situation of criminality -yes, in part through the benefit/welfare system for sure- profit even further by the demand for increased prisons, increased police forces, more laws, tighter regulations, more government control. The middle class is kept from further ascendency by its own demands to pay increasing amounts of protection money, whether in the forms of outright fear or schools, social programs etc all to prevent the above^.
I believe human beings seek to further their own interests (albeit as they conceive of them) that's all. I don't think it's a remarkable claim. It is in the interests of those with power to remain in power, and in the interests of those with money to make more money. If they don't constantly seek power and money they soon lose both- the Hitonian fall into the nadir of trustfundom for example.

The term "conspiracy" is nothing less then the modern equivalent of "blasphemy".

Truculent Sheep
19th June 07, 12:42 PM
A culture doesn't beat a woman, a culture doesn't refuse to work at McDonalds because it's below them, a culture doesn't smoke crack, etc. Actual human beings do these things. While their outlook is culturally conditioned, they do exercise agency, which is why culture hasn't remained identical for the last 100,00 years...

[And so on.]

CALM DOWN! At this rate, you'll be writing in purple ink!!!

ironlurker
19th June 07, 12:58 PM
[And so on.]

CALM DOWN! At this rate, you'll be writing in purple ink!!!
What??? :confused::homo::seppuku:

Fine, I'll give the floor to another academic.


Dr. John St. John Swallowbone, Professor of Politics at Oxford, New College, stated: "The challenge of an unassimilated, unemployed Muslim underclass may well be exacerbated by native Britons' rising rate of pragnancy termination. The clear strategy to make the best out of this situation, if I may be so bold as to suggest one, is to employ all Muslim immigrants in UK abortion clinics."

Truculent Sheep
19th June 07, 01:12 PM
Troll... Zzzzzzzzz...

ironlurker
19th June 07, 01:26 PM
Troll... Zzzzzzzzz...
trol bit u dohnt liek teh bigg pozts con10nt so I kep iT simpull LOL fag0t penorz:hitit::spanky::beatdead:

Truculent Sheep
19th June 07, 03:47 PM
Troll... Zzzzzzz...

ironlurker
19th June 07, 04:01 PM
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l43/whackula/what_sthepoint1.gif

Englund LOL













(hmmm this is kind of fun . . .)

edit- PENIS111

Truculent Sheep
19th June 07, 04:09 PM
Troll... Zzzzzzz...

Question!
19th June 07, 04:17 PM
http://jesusandmo.net/strips/2007-06-19.jpg

ironlurker
19th June 07, 05:02 PM
Troll... Zzzzzzz...
You're snoring doesn't bother me, but I will admit your constant awakening with screams of "DADDY STOP" grows tiring

ironlurker
19th June 07, 08:32 PM
On a serious note, it looks like the situation could be escalating:


Rushdie diplomatic row escalates

Iran has stepped up its protest over the knighthood awarded by Britain to Salman Rushdie, whose 1988 novel The Satanic Verses outraged many Muslims. Iran's foreign ministry summoned the UK ambassador in Tehran and said the knighthood was a "provocative act".
Pakistan voiced similar protests, telling the UK envoy in Islamabad the honour showed the British government's "utter lack of sensitivity".
Britain denied that the award was intended to insult Islam.
'Improper act'
Iran summoned UK ambassador Geoffrey Adams to protest against the knighthood.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/o.gif http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/south_asia_enl_1182180937/img/laun.jpg (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/07/south_asia_enl_1182180937/html/1.stm)
Protests in the Pakistani city of Quetta against Rushdie's award

"This insulting, suspicious and improper act by the British government is an obvious example of fighting against Islam," Iran's Foreign Ministry Director for Europe, Ebrahim Rahimpour, was quoted as saying by the state-run Irna news agency.
"It has seriously wounded the beliefs of 1.5 billion Muslims and followers of other religions."
Mr Rahimpour added that Iran held the British government and Queen Elizabeth II "responsible for the circumstance of this provocation".
In Islamabad, British High Commissioner Robert Brinkley was called to Pakistan's foreign ministry several hours earlier.

The envoy was told that the honour countered attempts by both countries to build mutual understanding.
For his part, Mr Brinkley expressed "deep concern" over reported comments by Pakistani Religious Affairs Minister Mohammad Ejaz ul-Haq, suggesting that the award could justify suicide attacks.
"If someone commits suicide bombing to protect the honour of the Prophet Muhammad, his act is justified," the minister said, according to Reuters news agency.
The minister later clarified his statement, saying extremists could use it to justify attacks.
Pakistan's parliament passed a resolution on Monday condemning the award.
The BBC's Barbara Plett in Islamabad says the diplomatic row is heated but that so far it has stayed mostly within official circles.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6769671.stm

I couldn't make it through the whole book and thought it was pretty unremarkable.

Thinkchair
19th June 07, 10:30 PM
http://bokertov.typepad.com/btb/images/cartoon_danish_mohammed.jpg


Due to the content of this post, henceforth I have earned the privilege to the title of Sir Emboesso.

Art should be evocative, not provocative. Rushdie isn't an artist, he's a shock jock with a pen. Yes, the reaction is way overboard, which is exactly what Rushdie wanted. A genuine artist could have found much sublter ways to evoke thoughts in people to re-examine aspects of their faith.

Giving this guy a knighthood is the equivalent to giving one to an old-time cartoonist who drew "coon kid eating watermelon" pictures.

Why can't art be provocative? I thought the Satanic Verses was an interesting book that took a lot of balls to write. If they can Knight Sean Connery I do not see why they cannot give an important novelist the same honor. I am not so sure that the reaction to the Satanic Verses is in fact what Rushdie wanted. Certainly he wanted to provoke but I really don't think he wanted to have to go into hiding for the next decade.

Truculent Sheep
19th June 07, 11:14 PM
YOUR snoring doesn't bother me, but I will admit your constant awakening with screams of "DADDY STOP" grows tiring

Fixed! Zzzzz...

AAAhmed46
20th June 07, 01:03 AM
Why can't art be provocative? I thought the Satanic Verses was an interesting book that took a lot of balls to write. If they can Knight Sean Connery I do not see why they cannot give an important novelist the same honor. I am not so sure that the reaction to the Satanic Verses is in fact what Rushdie wanted. Certainly he wanted to provoke but I really don't think he wanted to have to go into hiding for the next decade.


Actually, the book was out a while before it was protested, what sparked it was concerns that it would cause problems if it were published in india, somehow word spread and the protests happened. Thus he got popular.
And muslims made asses of themselves.

And the book sucks, it's not too well written.

Want to see good religion bashing? Read Dawkins, atleast he uses facts and knows what he's talking about, regardless of whether or not you agree with him.

Sun Wukong
20th June 07, 03:22 AM
This is all well and good, but what isn't being recognized is that Salman Rushdie from a purely literary stand point is one hell of an Author.

I read "The Satanic Verses" when I was in high school and it postively opened my mind to what good literature is. It made even looking at pop. literature a painstaking process for me.

Truculent Sheep
20th June 07, 06:25 AM
It's also an intelligent look at how minorities try to integrate into host societies - and how complex it can get as a result. It's also ultimately a novel about forgiveness and friendship. How ironic that the mullahs hate it so.

DAYoung
20th June 07, 07:06 AM
Art should be evocative, not provocative. Rushdie isn't an artist, he's a shock jock with a pen.

This is almost true.

It would be better to argue that art isn't a craft for achieving predetermined ends, but a mode of expression. If it deliberately provokes, it's not art - it's craft (a la shock jocks, tear jerker authors, and most post modern artists and anti-artists).

But it might be a nuanced and full expression and still be provocative. In fact, the very rich interpretability of great arts means it's often likely to provoke someone.

Whether Rushdie is a great artist or craftsman is another matter entirely.

john joe
20th June 07, 07:10 AM
it doesn't matter what rushdie is, these idiots need to shut the fuck up and stop being so easily offended.

If they ahd any tolerance for anyone else's worldview they would recognise that not everyone is agreed that Islam is the true path or the one true belief, or reveres mohammed. But they dont, so why should their sensitivities be pandered to by the same people they denegrate as 'infidels' and such?

i reiterate: fuck them.

WarPhalange
20th June 07, 02:01 PM
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/43053000/jpg/_43053349_salman_bbc203b.jpg

If I saw a guy like that walking down the street, I'd want to kick his ass, too.

AAAhmed46
20th June 07, 05:42 PM
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/43053000/jpg/_43053349_salman_bbc203b.jpg

His eyes say:


GONNA GET RAPED

sochin101
20th June 07, 05:52 PM
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/43053000/jpg/_43053349_salman_bbc203b.jpg

He's thinking "oh shite, not again"
book = fatwah = hiding = anonymity = more books = knighthood = fatwah.

And yes, I'd fatwah his ass for looking creepy and being smug. You'd not let he look after your kids while you went to firebomb the religious building of your choice, would you?

Also, the number of muslims that are offended by the Satanic Verses is almost exactly the same as the number of muslims who haven't read it.
Uncanny.

Harpy
20th June 07, 06:10 PM
Its the Queen's decision (or the British government, whatever) to give out titles as they damn well please.

No one group/government should be able to demand that she apologise/withdraw the honour from Rushdie (who cares if he's a good author or not).

I find it just makes Islam look more of a joke to me. Was reading the paper yesterday and it showed 300 'graduates' from a terrorist 'school'. Graduation = kaboom, they think they're so clever blowing up things and making threats to blow up things. What a fucking waste of time.

AAAhmed46
20th June 07, 06:45 PM
Most muslims ive talked to first heard about this from me. Seems like it isn't big news anywhere other then london and Iran.

I would say "Hey, did you hear about Salman rushdie being knighted''

"Really"

"Yeah'

"Damn"

john joe
21st June 07, 06:19 AM
my barber is a muslim, he use to be proper lax about it until he went jail for a couple of years, now he has got it bigtime. the shop is always full of these intense asian dudes, there's posters and literature all over, all he wants to talk about is islam, his eyes glaze over and he gets really uptight when i start questioning it and pointing out contradictions, he's started dressing in shalwar kameez and grown his beard out and that...

i've found it genuinely disturbing to watch it take hold. he cuts good hair for cheap but i think i might have to start taking my business elsewhere.

Truculent Sheep
21st June 07, 08:39 AM
I was once 'befriended' by a radical at the University of Westminster*, ten or so months before 9/11. I think he was trying to proslytize me for some reason, and apart from weirdo rants about the BBC being a Zionist conspiracy because it employs Alan Yentob and why prisons are holiday camps ('a brother muslim told me! It has to be true!'), I put it down to the fact that I was dressed like a terrorist (army surplus) at the time...

Ah, such treasured memories.



* Westminster also had lots of bookings in its lecture halls for 'meetings' about how wonderful the World Caliphate was going to be. Strangely, these were never stopped, despite all the rampant anti-semitism, sedition and high treason they espoused. Then again, this was London.

Kiko
21st June 07, 03:39 PM
my barber is a muslim, he use to be proper lax about it until he went jail for a couple of years, now he has got it bigtime. the shop is always full of these intense asian dudes, there's posters and literature all over, all he wants to talk about is islam, his eyes glaze over and he gets really uptight when i start questioning it and pointing out contradictions, he's started dressing in shalwar kameez and grown his beard out and that...

i've found it genuinely disturbing to watch it take hold. he cuts good hair for cheap but i think i might have to start taking my business elsewhere.

You MIGHT? Anyone whose eyes glaze over, etc is not someone you want holding anything sharp near your head, are they?

ironlurker
21st June 07, 05:11 PM
Interesting new article today on the niqab in the UK.

Head-to-toe Muslim veils test tolerance of stridently secular Britain
By Jane Perlez

Thursday, June 21, 2007

LONDON: Increasingly, Muslim women in Britain take their children to school and run errands covered head to toe in flowing black gowns that allow only a slit for their eyes.
Like little else, their appearance has unnerved Britons, testing the limits of tolerance in this stridently secular nation. Many veiled women say they are targets of abuse. At the same time, efforts are growing to place legal curbs on the full Muslim veil, known as the niqab.


The past year has seen numerous examples: A lawyer dressed in a niqab was told by an immigration judge that she could not represent a client because, he said, he could not hear her. A teacher wearing a niqab was told by a provincial school to go home. A student who was barred from wearing a niqab took her case to the courts, and lost. In fact, the British education authorities are proposing a ban on the niqab in schools altogether.
David Sexton, a columnist for The Evening Standard, wrote recently that Britain has been "too deferential" toward the veil. "I find such garb, in the context of a London street, first ridiculous and then directly offensive," he said.
Although the number of women wearing the niqab has increased in the past several years, only a tiny percentage of women among Britain's two million Muslims cover themselves completely. It is impossible to say how many exactly.
Some who wear the niqab, particularly younger women who have taken it up recently, concede that it is a frontal expression of Islamic identity, which they have embraced since Sept. 11, 2001, as a form of rebellion against the policies of the Blair government in Iraq and at home.


"For me it is not just a piece of clothing, it's an act of faith, it's solidarity," said a 24-year-old program scheduler at a broadcasting company in London, who would allow only her last name, Al Shaikh, to be printed, saying she wanted to protect her privacy. "9/11 was a wake-up call for young Muslims," she said.
At times she receives rude comments, including, Shaikh said, when a woman at her workplace told her she had no right to be there. Shaikh said she planned to file a complaint.


When she is on the street, she often answers barbs. "A few weeks ago a lady said: 'I think you look crazy.' I said: 'How dare you go around telling people how to dress,' and walked off. Sometimes I feel I have to reply. Islam does teach you that you must defend your religion."
Other Muslims find the niqab objectionable, a step backward for an immigrant group that is under pressure after the terror attack on London's transit system in July 2005.
"After the July 7 attacks, this is not the time to be antagonizing Britain by presenting Muslims as something sinister," said Imran Ahmad, author of "Unimagined," an autobiography of growing up Muslim in Britain, and the head of British Muslims for Secular Democracy. "The veil is so steeped in subjugation, I find it so offensive someone would want to create such barriers. It's retrograde."


Since South Asians started coming to Britain in large numbers in the 1960s, a small group of usually older, undereducated women have worn the niqab. It was most often seen as a sign of subjugation.
Many more Muslim women wear the headscarf, called the hijab, covering all or some of their hair. Unlike in France, Turkey and Tunisia, where students in state schools and female civil servants are banned from covering their hair, British Muslim women can wear the headscarf, and indeed the niqab, almost anywhere, for now.
But that tolerance is eroding. Even some who wear the niqab, like Faatema Mayata, a 24-year-old psychology and religious studies teacher, agreed there were limits. "How can you teach when you are covering your face?" she said, sitting with a cup of tea in her living room in Blackburn, a town in the north of England, her niqab tucked away because she was within the confines of her home.
She has worn the niqab since she was 12, when she was sent by her parents to an all-girls boarding school. The niqab was not, as many Britons seemed to think, a sign of extremism, she said. The niqab, to her, was about identity. "If I dressed in a Western way I could be a Hindu, I could be anything," she said. "This way I feel comfortable in my identity as a Muslim woman."


No one else in the family wore the niqab. Her husband, Ibrahim Boodi, a social worker, was indifferent, she said. "If I took it off today, he wouldn't care."
When she is walking, she is often stopped, she said. "People ask, 'Why do you wear that?' A lot of people assume I'm oppressed, that I don't speak English. I don't care, I've got a brain."
Some commentators have complained that mosques encourage women to wear the niqab, a practice they have said should be stopped. At the East London Mosque, one of the largest in the capital, the chief imam, Abdul Qayyum, studied in Saudi Arabia and is trained in the Wahhabi school of Islam. [o rly?] According to the community relations officer at the mosque, Ehsan Abdullah Hannan, the imam's daughter wears the niqab.
At Friday prayers recently, the women worshipers were crowded into a small upstairs windowless room away from the main hall for the men.
A handful of young women wore the niqab and spoke effusively about their reasons. "Wearing the niqab means you will get a good grade and go to paradise," said Hodo Muse, 19, a Somali woman. "Every day people are giving me dirty looks for wearing it, but when you wear something for Allah you get a boost."

http://www.iht.com/bin/print.php?id=6263112

As I've said before, most mainstream, even relatively conservative, Muslim jurists think the niqab is optional or commendable, but definitely not required.
Some even say that it is un-Islamic, or, as the gentleman quoted in the article says, just a bad idea for the current time.

You can see one problem in the first highlighted section. Saudi schools =$$$ and = anything that doesn't match the vision of Abdul Wahhab is wrong.

You can see the other problem in the second. Islam -yeah, contrary to public opinion and many of its most visible elements- is not inherently retarded. There's prioritization in it like there is in anything else. The hijab or even niqab may not be an institution of oppression or subjugation in itself- but the emphasis on it as the be-all end-all of female Muslim identity is a form of illegitimate control.

A woman covered head to toe with nothing visible cannot function in modern society. For example, at local banks here you're not even supposed to wear a baseball cap or sunglasses when you go up to the teller. These so-called "experts" who are telling these women the niqab is mandatory are esentially trying to find a rationale to keep them from participating in society, and the worst part of it to me is that it is a total distortion of the religion.

Truculent Sheep
21st June 07, 05:37 PM
The niqab is also banned in several north African countries - where it's seen as a political, rather than religious, statement, and that's how Islamists are trying to use it in the UK.

It's even seen as a bit mental by conservative Muslims:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1923964,00.html

Stick
21st June 07, 05:52 PM
I don't give two shits about the book, I only recently looked it up on wiki to get at least a notion of what the big deal is- frankly I'm still at a loss.

The reaction from the Muslim world, from religious and government bodies, is positivly unacceptable and speaks to a serious difference in society between the Dar al Islam and the rest of modern planet earth.

It's a fucking book. Putting a bounty on the author, issuing religious edicts, protesting- skratch that- rioting that kills innocent people, and murdering the translators of said book- no, fuck that, these are not people familiar with reason and rational thought and I'll be damned if I meekly sit back and consider their feelings on the matter.

Get it through your fucking heads; books, comics, movies- none of these is sufficient reason to offer millions of dollars for a man's head to say nothing of having a government body endorse that bounty.

/polishes glass case over personal copy of the Bill of Rights with special attention to ammendments 1 & 2

Question!
21st June 07, 06:22 PM
It would be funny if some guys disguised themselves in a niqab and pulled off an armed robbery. It'll be just like the opening scene in Snatch where he disguised as a rabbi.

DAYoung
21st June 07, 06:39 PM
I don't give two shits about the book, I only recently looked it up on wiki to get at least a notion of what the big deal is- frankly I'm still at a loss.

The reaction from the Muslim world, from religious and government bodies, is positivly unacceptable and speaks to a serious difference in society between the Dar al Islam and the rest of modern planet earth.

It's a fucking book. Putting a bounty on the author, issuing religious edicts, protesting- skratch that- rioting that kills innocent people, and murdering the translators of said book- no, fuck that, these are not people familiar with reason and rational thought and I'll be damned if I meekly sit back and consider their feelings on the matter.

Get it through your fucking heads; books, comics, movies- none of these is sufficient reason to offer millions of dollars for a man's head to say nothing of having a government body endorse that bounty.

/polishes glass case over personal copy of the Bill of Rights with special attention to ammendments 1 & 2

Yes. when will people get it through their head?

ART AND LITERATURE HAVE NO INFLUENCE ON PEOPLE.

emboesso
21st June 07, 08:03 PM
You MIGHT? Anyone whose eyes glaze over, etc is not someone you want holding anything sharp near your head, are they?

Yeah, really. When you say "a little of the top" they've got a completely different meaning.

NSFW Decapitated white older man with his head on his back NSFW (http://www.betar.co.uk/articles/pictures/paul_beheading.jpg)

NSFW Decapitated middle eastern girl NSFW (http://www.opinionbug.com/wp-images/christian_schoolgirls_beheaded_in_poso_3.jpg)

NSFW Another pic of the first dude NSFW (http://www.twin-towers.net/paul%20johnson.jpg)

Ehhh, I guess we had it coming. After all, we made them put their underwear on their heads at Abu Gharib.

AAAhmed46
21st June 07, 09:26 PM
That girl looks kind of hot.

AAAhmed46
21st June 07, 09:31 PM
I swear, i feel like the only muslim guy who is aware of the knighthood, almost no one i know really is aware of it or cares.

But this is canada.

How is it going in Britain and other places in europe?

Stick
21st June 07, 10:38 PM
Yes. when will people get it through their head?

ART AND LITERATURE HAVE NO INFLUENCE ON PEOPLE.

/smack

Don't be a twit.

AAAhmed46
21st June 07, 10:45 PM
Spider-man will change the world!!!!

Question!
22nd June 07, 12:35 AM
So according to the Colbert Report, Salman Rushdie got knighted thanks to the Colbert Bump!

Fatwa on Stephen Colbert!

Steve
22nd June 07, 01:11 AM
That girl looks kind of hot.

Someone neg rep Ahmed for me.

Thx.

AAAhmed46
22nd June 07, 01:27 AM
Im just complementing the dead.

Steve
22nd June 07, 01:29 AM
I'm confused, which part? Sicko.

AAAhmed46
22nd June 07, 01:31 AM
Okay...bad timing.

DAYoung
22nd June 07, 01:53 AM
That girl looks kind of hot.

Don't be a callous idiot.

And in saying just that, I've shown you more respect that you've shown that poor dead girl.

DAYoung
22nd June 07, 01:54 AM
/smack

Don't be a twit.

/blush

Dearest Stick - you really know how to make a man smile.

emboesso
22nd June 07, 06:19 AM
Im just complementing the dead.

If only that wasn't a mere spelling error.

The young girl was one of three Christian schoolgirls set upon en route to school by Muslim extremists in Jakarta. All three were beheaded to advance whatever dumbshit notions their attackers held about Islam. The murderers were sentenced to 14 years in prison which I hardly feel fits the crime.

Sun Wukong
22nd June 07, 08:19 AM
Ehhh, I guess we had it coming. After all, we made them put their underwear on their heads at Abu Gharib.

Skew viewpoints much? We did alot more than humiliate men in those prisons. Sleep deprivation, exposure to extremes of temperature, long hours spent in stress postions, electrocution, psychological torture, dog bites, and even beating to death at least one prisoner, and that's just what we found out about.

And of course, don't forget about what happened in haditha. Raping little girls, shooting them in the head and wiping out their neighborhood is a hell of a way to inspire people with your nation's high value on life.

That being said, anyone who could kill a little girl like that deserves to be flayed alive; American and Muslim both.

AAAhmed46
22nd June 07, 03:05 PM
If only that wasn't a mere spelling error.

The young girl was one of three Christian schoolgirls set upon en route to school by Muslim extremists in Jakarta. All three were beheaded to advance whatever dumbshit notions their attackers held about Islam. The murderers were sentenced to 14 years in prison which I hardly feel fits the crime.


Holy shit.

AAAhmed46
22nd June 07, 07:13 PM
If i had known the circumstances, i probably wouldn't have joked.

WarPhalange
22nd June 07, 11:25 PM
Yes you would have.

Steve
22nd June 07, 11:53 PM
If i had known the circumstances, i probably wouldn't have joked.

Anyone get the neg rep in yet?

DAYoung
23rd June 07, 12:08 AM
If i had known the circumstances, i probably wouldn't have joked.

Why are you posting like Mr. Jones?

AAAhmed46
23rd June 07, 01:01 AM
yeah...well....YOU MADE FUN OF BLACK BELT MOMMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Yeah, i was really really tired when i posted that. Thats my only excuse.

Thinkchair
27th June 07, 06:23 PM
Interesting new article today on the niqab in the UK.
http://www.iht.com/bin/print.php?id=6263112

As I've said before, most mainstream, even relatively conservative, Muslim jurists think the niqab is optional or commendable, but definitely not required.
Some even say that it is un-Islamic, or, as the gentleman quoted in the article says, just a bad idea for the current time.

You can see one problem in the first highlighted section. Saudi schools =$$$ and = anything that doesn't match the vision of Abdul Wahhab is wrong.

You can see the other problem in the second. Islam -yeah, contrary to public opinion and many of its most visible elements- is not inherently retarded. There's prioritization in it like there is in anything else. The hijab or even niqab may not be an institution of oppression or subjugation in itself- but the emphasis on it as the be-all end-all of female Muslim identity is a form of illegitimate control.

A woman covered head to toe with nothing visible cannot function in modern society. For example, at local banks here you're not even supposed to wear a baseball cap or sunglasses when you go up to the teller. These so-called "experts" who are telling these women the niqab is mandatory are esentially trying to find a rationale to keep them from participating in society, and the worst part of it to me is that it is a total distortion of the religion.

It is not simply a matter of clothing. A great problem within Islam is the general attitude you find toward women. And also ( as a recent study in the US found) its increasing acceptance of violence against westerners.

ironlurker
27th June 07, 09:29 PM
A great problem within Islam is the general attitude you find toward women.

As I've said before, I'd turn that assertion on its head and say the way to tell which followers of Islam are a problem is to look at the way they treat women.

In addition, as was said earlier in the thread, some of the greatest "Muslim" misogynists are only nominally Muslim, and their anti-women actions are based upon cultural and traditional ideals.

An example: Female attendance at mosques was recently prohibited in Uzbekistan by the secular government acting in coordination with traditional, established religious authorities because Islamists were recruiting women from the mosques.

Thinkchair
28th June 07, 12:08 AM
As I've said before, I'd turn that assertion on its head and say the way to tell which followers of Islam are a problem is to look at the way they treat women.

In addition, as was said earlier in the thread, some of the greatest "Muslim" misogynists are only nominally Muslim, and their anti-women actions are based upon cultural and traditional ideals.

An example: Female attendance at mosques was recently prohibited in Uzbekistan by the secular government acting in coordination with traditional, established religious authorities because Islamists were recruiting women from the mosques.

I have to ask if you have every known any muslims, because you only seem to understand that religion from a theoretically informed position and not form the "ground". This was one of the problems I found being in a Middle East Studies program, the disconnect between the theoretical "academic" understanding of Islam and Islam as it is actually practiced (plus techniques like drawing distinctions between religious basis for actions and religious ones). If you look at the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia for instance (where they clearly are descriminated against by law) it is a product of Wahabi Islam, not some pre-islamic indigenous culture---though to be fair religion and culture go hand in hand). I can say in my experience from the muslims I have known, that they treat their women less well than christians and jews. That there seems to be a religious bases for this treatment. Granted such a bases also exists in Christianity in Judaism, but both of these religions (to a large extent) have managed to adapt to the modern world with more success than Islam. You keep bringing up examples that are exceptions more than anything else, and tenuous. To deny the role of Islam in the mistreatment of women throughout the world is pure sophistry (i.e. "they are only nominally muslim"). There is a clear connection that can be percieved in everyday interactions with muslims and the writings of muslim apostates and critics of Islam such as Ibn Waraq, Ali Sina, Avaan Hirsi Ali and Parvin Darabi.

AAAhmed46
28th June 07, 12:08 AM
Also, the Taliban is not a good example of islam's attitudes toward woman because even before 9/11,

Afgans were known in the muslim community to be Misogynistic for a long long time.


Uzbekistan is not only secular, but anti-religious, they will take you to prison for having a beard, or at the very least you will be followed.

Pastors and Imams are often placed by the government.


And Islam is alot younger then christianity and judaism, with the followers being in different locations.

Islam is the second biggest religion in the world, with only 10% more christians. Thus, a large group of followers, but also largely ignored for such a long long time, they were not in the lime light during the cold war like china and Vietnam were.

Suddenly, their spilling over and well.....look whats happening now.

AAAhmed46
28th June 07, 12:21 AM
Anyway, notice that Indonesian muslims and malay's dont have the same problems with woman's issues because their completely different cultures overall.

Hell you realize that lots of arabian Christians tend to have the same gender issues?

ironlurker
28th June 07, 08:50 AM
I have to ask if you have every known any muslims, because you only seem to understand that religion from a theoretically informed position and not form the "ground". This was one of the problems I found being in a Middle East Studies program, the disconnect between the theoretical "academic" understanding of Islam and Islam as it is actually practiced (plus techniques like drawing distinctions between religious basis for actions and religious ones).
"Drawing a basis between religious basis for actions and religious ones" . . . I'm guessing you mean that we can't differentiate between actions that are caused by a religion, carried out in the name of a religion, and carried out by practitioners of a religion?

By your logic, the KKK= Christianity, because it's a group composed exclusively of men with Christian backgrounds who claim their actions are supported by Christianity.

You say "the role of Islam". Islam doesn't do anything, people do. If we said there was a "role of Christianity" that it carried out in the world, based on some powerful intrinsice essence within it, we would see non-violence and communitarian living in all Christian areas.

Do you "deny the role" of Christianity in the inquisition, the crusades, American slavery, and the holocaust, or do you say that those were the actions of people who based their views on a misguided interpretation of it?

Thinkchair
28th June 07, 09:22 AM
"Drawing a basis between religious basis for actions and religious ones" . . . I'm guessing you mean that we can't differentiate between actions that are caused by a religion, carried out in the name of a religion, and carried out by practitioners of a religion?

By your logic, the KKK= Christianity, because it's a group composed exclusively of men with Christian backgrounds who claim their actions are supported by Christianity.

You say "the role of Islam". Islam doesn't do anything, people do. If we said there was a "role of Christianity" that it carried out in the world, based on some powerful intrinsice essence within it, we would see non-violence and communitarian living in all Christian areas.

Do you "deny the role" of Christianity in the inquisition, the crusades, American slavery, and the holocaust, or do you say that those were the actions of people who based their views on a misguided interpretation of it?

Sure you can distinguish, but when the distinction is actually a false one used to vindicate a religion that mistreats women I will call you on it. As for the KKK example, there is a difference. The KKK is a small group within the larger Christian COmmunity. In the case of Islam, the vast majority of its practitioners adhere to an antiquated view of women because it is in the Quran and continues to be accepted by most muslim cultures. Contary to your position religions to have impact on peoples actions and behaviors. You poiint out some great historical examples of this, the inquisition and the crusades. These historic atrocities are clearly a result of the Christian religion. Thank God Christianity has advanced since that time, or I would be making the same criticism of it as I am of Islam (and there are still plenty of things to be critical of Christianity for by the way). What is important about religion is not the eternal message of the text, but how it is generally interpreted at any given time. Right now the interpretation of Islam is in my view a dangerous one. And so when I speak of Islam, that is what I am speaking of. However, the text of the Quran alone warrants criticism itself. So even if you could remove the lenses of culture and interpretation, leaving only a "pure" Islam, I would still have serious problems with it.

Thinkchair
28th June 07, 09:26 AM
Anyway, notice that Indonesian muslims and malay's dont have the same problems with woman's issues because their completely different cultures overall.

Hell you realize that lots of arabian Christians tend to have the same gender issues?


Simply not true. While I have known many Arabian Christians, and while they might be a little old fashion, they simply do not treat women the way that their muslim counterparts do.

Thinkchair
28th June 07, 09:36 AM
Also, the Taliban is not a good example of islam's attitudes toward woman because even before 9/11,

Afgans were known in the muslim community to be Misogynistic for a long long time.


Uzbekistan is not only secular, but anti-religious, they will take you to prison for having a beard, or at the very least you will be followed.

Pastors and Imams are often placed by the government.


And Islam is alot younger then christianity and judaism, with the followers being in different locations.

Islam is the second biggest religion in the world, with only 10% more christians. Thus, a large group of followers, but also largely ignored for such a long long time, they were not in the lime light during the cold war like china and Vietnam were.

Suddenly, their spilling over and well.....look whats happening now.

The list is far greater than these two countries. What about the honor killings occuring in: Pakistan, Syria, Iran, Sudan (even in England)? Or the strict Sharia derived laws of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Nigeria and the Sudan. It is not just its treatment of women that sets Islam apart from other religions at this time, it is also its harsh treatment of apostates and homosexuals.

AAAhmed46
28th June 07, 02:55 PM
The list is far greater than these two countries. What about the honor killings occuring in: Pakistan, Syria, Iran, Sudan (even in England)? Or the strict Sharia derived laws of Saudi Arabia, Iran, Nigeria and the Sudan. It is not just its treatment of women that sets Islam apart from other religions at this time, it is also its harsh treatment of apostates and homosexuals.

HOnor killings in pakistan are looked down upon by the general population, and is NOT attributed to Islam by the population. It's about inheritence, often many families want the daughter to intermarry within the family(like marrying cousins) to keep wealth within the family. When they dont, we see honor killings. As for Syria Iran and Sudan, there are honor killings done by christian families as well. It's not a religious issue, more of an issue of 'honor'. Hence the title.

Saudi arabia? It's run by a monarch, that alone is unislamic, and muslims have been complaining about saudi arabia LONG before 9/11, so meh. Iran? Had a pro-american regime for a long time, then what happened. The peiple didn't like it very much. Now we have the theocracy, which the general population does not want, and many are eagerly awaiting for that guy to drop dead. Mr TKD iranian president was elected for omestic issues, and has lost a great deal of popularity.

Nigeria and Sudan i dont know enought to comment on.



As for Apostates and homosexuals: Really, there are lots of APostates and homosexuals. Ive met atleast three apostates in my time. Never any muslim homosexuals.
The only time ive ever heard of an apostate being bugged solely for being apostates is that dude in afganistan. Otherwise, most musllims leave apostates alone.
Ali Sina has so many holes in his story that i strongly suspect it, and same with Ibn Warraq.
But there was this little event in jerusalem about gays remember? HOw many death threats did they get? Ironically, the most peaceful relationship between isreali's and palistinians is actually the gay isreali and gay palistinian community.


Now i will agree with you on this: Most of the muslim world is behind the christian and jewish world. But why? Ali Sina and Warraq would say "BECAUSE OF ISLAM" but any fault that can be found in islam are(often) the same faults people pull from the bible, only difference is that most christians ignore it.
WHy do they ignore it?
Because unlike muslims, though they were advancing 1000 in terms of progress just stopped developing at the same rate. While europe had an age of englightenment. MOst muslims countries never went through this.
Turkey did, and Turkey isn't fucked up. It's a secualr governemnt and a democracy. The reason turkey isn't as fucked up as other muslims countries is because it went throught the same progress as the rest of europe, or atleast wasinfluenced by it.

Thinkchair
28th June 07, 06:42 PM
HOnor killings in pakistan are looked down upon by the general population, and is NOT attributed to Islam by the population. It's about inheritence, often many families want the daughter to intermarry within the family(like marrying cousins) to keep wealth within the family. When they dont, we see honor killings. As for Syria Iran and Sudan, there are honor killings done by christian families as well. It's not a religious issue, more of an issue of 'honor'. Hence the title.

Saudi arabia? It's run by a monarch, that alone is unislamic, and muslims have been complaining about saudi arabia LONG before 9/11, so meh. Iran? Had a pro-american regime for a long time, then what happened. The peiple didn't like it very much. Now we have the theocracy, which the general population does not want, and many are eagerly awaiting for that guy to drop dead. Mr TKD iranian president was elected for omestic issues, and has lost a great deal of popularity.

Nigeria and Sudan i dont know enought to comment on.



As for Apostates and homosexuals: Really, there are lots of APostates and homosexuals. Ive met atleast three apostates in my time. Never any muslim homosexuals.
The only time ive ever heard of an apostate being bugged solely for being apostates is that dude in afganistan. Otherwise, most musllims leave apostates alone.
Ali Sina has so many holes in his story that i strongly suspect it, and same with Ibn Warraq.
But there was this little event in jerusalem about gays remember? HOw many death threats did they get? Ironically, the most peaceful relationship between isreali's and palistinians is actually the gay isreali and gay palistinian community.


Now i will agree with you on this: Most of the muslim world is behind the christian and jewish world. But why? Ali Sina and Warraq would say "BECAUSE OF ISLAM" but any fault that can be found in islam are(often) the same faults people pull from the bible, only difference is that most christians ignore it.
WHy do they ignore it?
Because unlike muslims, though they were advancing 1000 in terms of progress just stopped developing at the same rate. While europe had an age of englightenment. MOst muslims countries never went through this.
Turkey did, and Turkey isn't fucked up. It's a secualr governemnt and a democracy. The reason turkey isn't as fucked up as other muslims countries is because it went throught the same progress as the rest of europe, or atleast wasinfluenced by it.

You make some good points. What do you think of the Idea tha Al Ghazali (with "the incoherance of philosophers") is largely to blame for the Muslim world lagging behind?

Again you make some good points. I am just not so sure that you can abstract islam from the cultures that practice it so easily.

Question!
29th June 07, 03:07 AM
http://jesusandmo.net/strips/2007-06-26.jpg