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View Full Version : US evangelist Jerry Falwell dies



ergo
28th February 93, 07:14 PM
What kind of feminism? There are three kinds remember?
There's basically only one type of feminism as far as I'm concerned: a fascist ideology that seeks to grab more power for its members, at the expense of everyone else, including non-feminist women. When you listen to feminists, all they really want is to reshape society and the world at large to conform to their feminist ideals and principles. In many cases feminism is an outright hate movement againts men.

danno
16th May 07, 03:15 AM
i was surprised to see that no one had mentioned the death of this bloke on sociocide.


United States evangelist Jerry Falwell, a leader of the religious right who battled in the political arena against abortion and homosexuality, died on Tuesday (local time) after collapsing in his Virginia office.

Falwell, 73, was found unconscious in his office and was taken to a nearby hospital. He had a history of congestive heart problems.

"Dr Falwell was found unconscious without a heartbeat at his office today at Liberty University around 11:30 am by his associates," Dr Carl Moore, his personal physician, told a news conference.

Falwell founded the Thomas Road Baptist Church in his hometown of Lynchburg, Virginia, in 1956 and rose to be one of the most prominent figures in the religious right, a powerful movement that seeks to redraw public policy along Christian lines.

He founded Liberty University in 1971 - a conservative centre of higher learning - and in 1979 started the Moral Majority organisation, which became a major vehicle for getting out the vote for the Republican Party.

He disbanded the Moral Majority in 1989 but it was resurrected as the Moral Majority Coalition, with an explicit political purpose, after President George W Bush's re-election in 2004.

With his gray hair and heavy jowls, Falwell was a familiar face on the televangelist circuit, while his views on a range of social issues firmly placed him on the far right of the American political spectrum.

Presidential historian Douglas Brinkley recalled Falwell's long influence on US politics.

"He became a leading voice by the time of Ronald Reagan's emergence in 1980 and the whole concept of family values was adopted by the Republican Party," Mr Brinkley told Fox News.

"There's not a conservative in America that hasn't taken Jerry Falwell seriously. Liberty University's become a bellwether spot, a place where if you're going to be a real conservative and get the conservative vote, you have to go spend a day with Reverend Falwell."

Ronald Godwin, executive vice president at Liberty University, said he had eaten breakfast with Falwell on Tuesday morning.

"He was found unconscious where he was working in his office ... Everything possible that could be done was done in a very timely way," Mr Godwin said.

"He has left instructions to those of us who have to carry on and we will be faithful to those plans."

- Reuters

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200705/s1924046.htm

in my opinion he was an extremist fuckstain and i can't say i'll miss him.

a couple of my favourite quotes:

"I think Muhammad was a terrorist. I read enough by both Muslims and non-Muslims, [to decide] that he was a violent man, a man of war."

"You've got to kill the terrorists before the killing stops and I am for the President—chase them all over the world, if it takes ten years, blow them all away in the name of the Lord."

Jimmy Carter's "message of peace and reconciliation under almost all circumstances is simply incompatible with Christian teachings as I interpret them. This 'turn the other cheek' business is all well and good but it's not what Jesus fought and died for. What we need to do is take the battle to the Muslim heathens and do unto them before they do unto us."

an old joke from hustler:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5d/Falwellhustler.jpg

enough from me, i'm off to work...

Sun Wukong
16th May 07, 03:27 AM
I didn't say anything before, though i thought about starting a thread about it earlier. I prefer not to speak ill of the dead, but, now that he's gone, I feel like the world is a better place.

Yiktin Voxbane
16th May 07, 03:49 AM
Should be an interesting time when he *Meets his maker* and has to answer for all the years of fleecing the gullible and building Gaudy buildings in which to unleash his own virrulent form of *Christian terrorism* .

Shawarma
16th May 07, 09:09 AM
I feel all warm inside at the thought that Jesus is most likely beating the shit out of that self-righteous old cock for prostituting him for his own gain for God knows how long.

Matsufubu
16th May 07, 09:26 AM
Fucker supported apartheid in South Africa. Let the bastard burn.

Question!
16th May 07, 11:35 AM
You mean like this?

http://photos-610.ak.facebook.com/ip002/v71/242/122/503916422/n503916422_67610_3817.jpg

Sun Wukong
16th May 07, 02:18 PM
Wow, now that goes above and beyond the call of duty right there.

emboesso
16th May 07, 02:38 PM
I dunno. Personally I always feel better when a Kennedy gets iced.

Oh yeah, and Paul Wellstone in that plane crash? Damn near peed my pants.

Zendetta
16th May 07, 02:39 PM
in my opinion he was an extremist fuckstain and i can't say i'll miss him.

Yeah, no shit. A more accurate thread title might have been "Moralizing Hypocrite Kicks Bucket, is Judged by Almighty, Burns in Hellfire Forever."

I don't usually like to speak ill of the dead, but this guy was a major player in the culture war that has fucked up my country so bad.

Quikfeet509
16th May 07, 03:54 PM
What was worse was all the pandering by the republican presidential nominees, praising this assclown like actually served a function.


Hopefully all the bikers that took part in blocking of Falwell's moron troupe (the ones that protested military funerals because god hates fags) will simultaneously drive to his grave, get drunk, and piss all over the place.


Great fucking news.

Bukow
16th May 07, 04:57 PM
Yeah, on my list of "People I wouldn't mind seeing die," he was not too low on the list. Good riddance.

frumpleswift
16th May 07, 05:12 PM
Next on the list: Pat Robertson (fingers crossed)

Fuck if he can pray for more members of the Supreme Court to die, I can pray for his death.

Sun Wukong
16th May 07, 06:16 PM
What was worse was all the pandering by the republican presidential nominees, praising this assclown like actually served a function.


Hopefully all the bikers that took part in blocking of Falwell's moron troupe (the ones that protested military funerals because god hates fags) will simultaneously drive to his grave, get drunk, and piss all over the place.


Great fucking news.

I think you're thinking of Westboro Baptist Church leader Fred Phelps. They had somewhat similar views on alot of things but military funerals probably not so much.

Fred Phelp's funeral will likely be a very interesting spectacle.

Dagon Akujin
16th May 07, 06:16 PM
Next on the list: Pat Robertson (fingers crossed)

Fuck if he can pray for more members of the Supreme Court to die, I can pray for his death.

AMEN BROTHER!!




If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being.

Billy Graham is the chief servant of Satan.

And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this (9/11) because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say, "You helped this happen."

I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!

AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals.

AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharoah's chariotters.

There is no separation of church and state. Modern US Supreme Courts have raped the Constitution and raped the Christian faith and raped the churches by misinterpreting what the Founders had in mind in the First Amendment to the Constitution.

The Bible is the inerrant ... word of the living God. It is absolutely infallible,without error in all matters pertaining to faith and practice, as well as in areas such as geography, science, history, etc.

The ACLU is to Christians what the American Nazi party is to Jews.

The Jews are returning to their land of unbelief. They are spiritually blind.

Quikfeet509
16th May 07, 11:57 PM
I think you're thinking of Westboro Baptist Church leader Fred Phelps. They had somewhat similar views on alot of things but military funerals probably not so much.

Fred Phelp's funeral will likely be a very interesting spectacle.


Funny, I tended to get those two confused [white evangelicals all look the same].



Phelps is much worse than Falwell, although I will not shed a tear for Falwell.

WarPhalange
17th May 07, 12:25 AM
Not even tears of joy?

ergo
17th May 07, 12:26 AM
in my opinion he was an extremist fuckstain and i can't say i'll miss him.

a couple of my favourite quotes:

"I think Muhammad was a terrorist. I read enough by both Muslims and non-Muslims, [to decide] that he was a violent man, a man of war."
He was an extremist fuckstain, but this quote is simply the truth.

danno
17th May 07, 01:11 AM
He was an extremist fuckstain, but this quote is simply the truth.

i included that quote to compare it with his own religious militarism. replace the words "god" and "lord" with "allah"; "muslim" with "christian" - and you'd think you were reading the words of osama bin laden or any other extremist muslim idiot. the only thing he didn't call for was the public stoning of gays, but i'm sure he wanted it.

considering the influence he has had on america... well it just makes me bristle. he altered the world for the worse. if i believed in an afterlife i'd think he was going straight to hell.

btw, i've decided that you are a bigot.

Shawarma
17th May 07, 02:14 AM
You are quite a fucking idiot, Ergo. Assigning the buzzword label of "terrorist" which has been grossly distorted in recent years to a prophet and warlord that lived 1500 years ago is sheer asshattery. Enjoy thine negative rep.

danno
17th May 07, 02:18 AM
lolol

Matsufubu
17th May 07, 03:25 AM
Aladdin was more of a terrorist than Mohammed. Somebody should, like, totally make an avatar to make that point.

Quikfeet509
17th May 07, 10:22 AM
Not even tears of joy?


No, real men don't cry.

Ever. Not when their kids are born, their parents die, or the democrats actually put up a candidate worth voting for.


Never.

frumpleswift
17th May 07, 11:03 AM
No, real men don't cry.

Ever. Not when their kids are born, their parents die, or the democrats actually put up a candidate worth voting for.


Never.

The democrat bit is worth more than a good cry, I think all the Democrats in the U.S. collectively shitting themselves in amazement is more appropriate.

ergo
17th May 07, 12:03 PM
btw, i've decided that you are a bigot.
Really, now? How exactly am I a bigot? So many people have accused me of being a bigot and not a single person has ever managed to prove it.


You are quite a fucking idiot, Ergo. Assigning the buzzword label of "terrorist" which has been grossly distorted in recent years to a prophet and warlord that lived 1500 years ago is sheer asshattery. Enjoy thine negative rep.
You can't actually deny the fact that he was a bloodthirsty warlord, so you start complaining about irrelevant semantics. Hmm.

Shawarma
17th May 07, 12:20 PM
Not irrelevant, you fucking idiot. "Terrorist" is a term that, in its current meaning, means violence against civilians perpetrated by small bands of minority groups for political reasons. Mohammed was a prophet, leader of thousands and warlord. There is no comparison. You can perhaps argue that he wasn't a very nice person, which I am sure you will, using wikipedia as your reference as you usually do, but calling him a "terrorist" is cockfaggery.

ergo
17th May 07, 12:44 PM
Not irrelevant, you fucking idiot.
I think we're done here.

Shawarma
17th May 07, 12:46 PM
True.

frumpleswift
17th May 07, 01:12 PM
Wow...all you had to do to get him to shut up was point out the fact that he's a fucking idiot? Good job Shawarma. If only I knew it were that easy.

Neildo
17th May 07, 01:16 PM
http://neildato.googlepages.com/nowyoucanseelol.jpg

danno
17th May 07, 01:31 PM
So many people have accused me of being a bigot

isn't that telling you something? i've never felt the need to call someone a bigot on these forums before.

Yiktin Voxbane
17th May 07, 01:39 PM
After reading this thread again, I am now convinced Mohammed was infact, A Wizard ......

A Boy wizard with a particularly ripe Femme-Pal .

Shawarma
17th May 07, 01:56 PM
True. 'Cept instead of hiding behind a curtain from girls, he demanded that all girls hide behind curtains themselves.

Mr. Jones
17th May 07, 02:03 PM
After reading this thread again, I am now convinced Mohammed was infact, A Wizard ......

A Boy wizard with a particularly ripe Femme-Pal .

Jesus was also a moonshiner. Remember when he turned water into wine?

ergo
17th May 07, 02:15 PM
Wow...all you had to do to get him to shut up was point out the fact that he's a fucking idiot? Good job Shawarma. If only I knew it were that easy.
I'm just tired of talking to people whose only mode of communication is a childish tantrum.


isn't that telling you something? i've never felt the need to call someone a bigot on these forums before.
It only tells me that people have emotional PC kneejerk reactions which they cannot rationally justify.

Shawarma
17th May 07, 02:32 PM
It offends you being called a fucking idiot? Make posts that show that you're not one. I am capable of being civil. Thinkchair, for instance, sometimes makes points which I find are deeply moronic, yet I recognize him as being a bright chap and refrain from insulting him. You don't exhibit this - Your "argument" is too stupid to even bother with.

Ancient prophet =/= terrorist. It is this simple. Try writing "Ancient Prophet = evil bastard" and back it up. Then you might have a shot at winning my civility.

Until then: Fuck off, you whore.

frumpleswift
17th May 07, 02:42 PM
I'm just tired of talking to people whose only mode of communication is a childish tantrum.

Then stop talking to yourself.



It only tells me that people have emotional PC kneejerk reactions which they cannot rationally justify.

You have repeatedly stated things along the lines of "all Islamic people are violent" "Islam has always been more violent than any other religion" etc. None of these things are true, as has been pointed out to you at great length in several other threads.

You willfully ignore the facts in favor of your own misinformed negative view of Islamic people. You are irrationally intolerant of a whole faith, which gets you one step closer to being a bigot.

So you see, we can rationally justify our negtive reactions to you...you are an idiot. If you want to preach the conservative agenda* apprentice yourself to Emboesso for a while. He knows how to make a valid argument, and can afford to be condescending at times because he doesn't sound like an illiterate moron in every post he makes.

Also, implying that Shawarma is some emo PC nazi is fucking funny on so many levels.

*Not to imply that Emboesso shares Ergo's views...it is just that I hope Ergo is some kind of right-winger with a piss-poor ability to carry on a coherent argument, rather than assume he is some fucktard white-nationalist neo-nazi.

Zendetta
17th May 07, 03:07 PM
Also, implying that Shawarma is some emo PC nazi is fucking funny on so many levels.

LOL. No kidding. Shawarma is about as PC as a busload of retards crashing into a KKK rally because the driver was an Asian Female.

ergo
18th May 07, 12:16 AM
Until then: Fuck off, you whore.
How old are you anyway, and why do you have such a huge emotional investment in this subject?


Then stop talking to yourself.
I was not talking to myself.


You have repeatedly stated things along the lines of "all Islamic people are violent"
I've never said that.


You are irrationally intolerant of a whole faith, which gets you one step closer to being a bigot.
It's perfectly rational and based on information and observation rather than feelings and wishful thinking, and there's nothing intolerant about being intolerant of intolerance. You may as well claim a person is a bigot for opposing Nazism. Bigot is just part of the shaming language that PC liberals, multicullturalists and other deluded people use to silence dissident.


*Not to imply that Emboesso shares Ergo's views...it is just that I hope Ergo is some kind of right-winger with a piss-poor ability to carry on a coherent argument, rather than assume he is some fucktard white-nationalist neo-nazi.
And now you're implying that I might be a white-nationalist, even though this issue has absolutely nothing at all to do with race. But then, it's always people like you who make everything into a race issue (and then accuse somebody else of racism). Calling me neo-nazi is also amusing since one of the defining characteristics of nazism is anti-semitism, which also happens to be one of the defining characteristics of Islam.

Dagon Akujin
18th May 07, 12:24 AM
Calling me neo-nazi is also amusing since one of the defining characteristics of nazism is anti-semitism, which also happens to be one of the defining characteristics of Islam.

That's odd, considering that Arabs are Semites.

?

Dagon

AAAhmed46
18th May 07, 12:37 AM
My issue with Ergo isn't the fact that he hates islam per say, i see that alot.

It's more so the fact that he paints it and muslims with a really wide brush. Lots of blanket statements.

nihilist
18th May 07, 12:41 AM
Let us commemorate his untimely departure from this Earthly sphere by reciting a few quotes by the "man of God":


"Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions”

“AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals”

“The idea that religion and politics don't mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country”
“If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being”

“Textbooks are Soviet propaganda”

“[homosexuals are] brute beasts...part of a vile and satanic system [that] will be utterly annihilated, and there will be a celebration in heaven.”

“The ACLU is to Christians what the American Nazi party is to Jews"


(re: 9/11 attacks) "...throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools, the abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked and when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad...I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who try to secularize America...I point the thing in their face and say you helped this happen."


God bless you Jerry, you are a true inspiration to Christians everywhere.

ergo
18th May 07, 12:44 AM
That's odd, considering that Arabs are Semites.
In common usage the term refers to Jews, and that was exactly what I intended to say.


It's more so the fact that he paints it and muslims with a really wide brush. Lots of blanket statements.
The problem isn't that I make blanket statements, the problem is that people these days have an irrational fear of generalizations because they fervently believe every single human being on the planet is a beautiful and unique snowflake. However, these same people apply generalizations when it's convinient for them, but complain about them when it's not. Nobody has any problem with somebody saying "Muslims are peaceful" or "the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful." No, it's not a generalization. But say the opposite, and suddenly it's the dread scourge of modern civilization: a generalization. People also have no problems with taking a sample of 5 peaceful Muslims and concluding that Islam is a religion of peace, but when you take 100,000 or 100,000,000 Muslims who are not peaceful, you're just generalisizing based on a tiny minority of people.

Sun Wukong
18th May 07, 12:45 AM
Jesus was also a moonshiner. Remember when he turned water into wine?

I'm also willing to bet that he didn't have a permit and for damn sure he didn't pay gift taxes on that donkey they gave him. Total disrespect for the law.

AAAhmed46
18th May 07, 12:50 AM
The problem isn't that I make blanket statements, the problem is that people these days have an irrational fear of generalizations because they fervently believe every single human being on the planet is a beautiful and unique snowflake. However, these same people apply generalizations when it's convinient for them, but complain about them when it's not. Nobody has any problem with somebody saying "Muslims are peaceful" or "the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful." No, it's not a generalization. But say the opposite, and suddenly it's the dread scourge of modern civilization: a generalization. People also have no problems with taking a sample of 5 peaceful Muslims and concluding that Islam is a religion of peace, but when you take 100,000 or 100,000,000 Muslims who are not peaceful, you're just generalisizing based on a tiny minority of people.

Look, ive met muslims with weird views. Conspiracy theories and what not, or are horribly anti-american.


However, most believe them to distance themselves from terrorism, their denial shows an acceptance of it being a horrible act.

I have yet to, and i never have ever met a muslim who truly believed in killing non-muslims or establishing a global caliphate by force.

And im muslim.

ergo
18th May 07, 01:06 AM
Look, ive met muslims with weird views. Conspiracy theories and what not, or are horribly anti-american.

However, most believe them to distance themselves from terrorism, their denial shows an acceptance of it being a horrible act.

I have yet to, and i never have ever met a muslim who truly believed in killing non-muslims or establishing a global caliphate by force.

And im muslim.
This is another problem: people rely exclusively on personal experiences. Not necessarily a good idea when you're dealing with hundreds of millions of people all over the world. I mean, I've never met a gay person* or someone from China, but I'm really not going to claim that they don't exist or that they're a tiny minority.

If I reversed your post and said that I've never met a Muslim who doesn't believe in Jihad and establishing a global caliphate, I'd be accused of being an Islamophobic bigot. Personal experiences are only valid, it seems, when they're the correct kind of experiences.

* as far as I know.

Sun Wukong
18th May 07, 01:14 AM
Seriously, do you live a hole in the ground out in kentucky or something? Who the fuck lives their whole life and has never met a gay person or someone from fucking China? Are you in high school? Do you live in the outback of austrailia?

I mean, you're not winning yourself any support points here, you sound like someone who's never left their own living room. You've seen absolutely fuck all of the world and somehow your opinions should mean anything? You haven't even seen anything yet.

ergo
18th May 07, 01:39 AM
Seriously, do you live a hole in the ground out in kentucky or something? Who the fuck lives their whole life and has never met a gay person or someone from fucking China? Are you in high school? Do you live in the outback of austrailia?
I don't live in a particularly multicultural country, let alone a multicultural city, and I keep to myself.


I mean, you're not winning yourself any support points here, you sound like someone who's never left their own living room.
Why am I not winning support points? Does my personal life have some kind of effect on the validity of my posts? No, it does not.


You've seen absolutely fuck all of the world and somehow your opinions should mean anything? You haven't even seen anything yet.
I've visited five foreign countries and lived in one of them for several months. But nevermind. As I just said, you should not rely too much on personal experience, so it doesn't matter where I've been or haven't been to.

If Jihadists behead a civilian in Thailand, what does it matter that I've never met a Muslim? What's the connection there? If Muslims are rampaging all over Europe, what does it matter that they aren't doing it in my city? They're still doing it, and it has nothing to do with who am I, where I am or what I'm doing.

Do you believe that nothing outside your immediate personal experience is real, or what exactly is your logic?

Matsufubu
18th May 07, 03:49 AM
If Muslims are rampaging all over Europe, what does it matter that they aren't doing it in my city?

This made me laugh my ass off.

I've never met a Muslim named George, Lizzie or Ralph, though.

Living in Europe, I shall consider myself rampaged.

ergo
18th May 07, 04:49 AM
This made me laugh my ass off.

I've never met a Muslim named George, Lizzie or Ralph, though.
Well, I doubt there are many Muslims who have such names, but what is your point?


Living in Europe, I shall consider myself rampaged.
If you are saying that no such rampaging occurs where you live, it again demonstrates the fallacy of personal experiences.

bob
18th May 07, 04:54 AM
I don't live in a particularly multicultural country, let alone a multicultural city, and I keep to myself.


Why am I not winning support points? Does my personal life have some kind of effect on the validity of my posts? No, it does not.


I've visited five foreign countries and lived in one of them for several months. But nevermind. As I just said, you should not rely too much on personal experience, so it doesn't matter where I've been or haven't been to.

If Jihadists behead a civilian in Thailand, what does it matter that I've never met a Muslim? What's the connection there? If Muslims are rampaging all over Europe, what does it matter that they aren't doing it in my city? They're still doing it, and it has nothing to do with who am I, where I am or what I'm doing.

Do you believe that nothing outside your immediate personal experience is real, or what exactly is your logic?

I like him. He is funny. Can we keep him? Please?

ergo
18th May 07, 05:39 AM
I like him. He is funny. Can we keep him? Please?
This is Internet speak for "I have no idea how to disprove/refute/challenge him." There's really no need to so childish and emotional about this.

danno
18th May 07, 05:50 AM
your belief that muhammed was a terrorist is insane. that idea has already been torn apart in this thread. i'd set about destroying your other fantasies myself, unfortunately i don't have the time.

ergo
18th May 07, 06:18 AM
your belief that muhammed was a terrorist is insane. that idea has already been torn apart in this thread. i'd set about destroying your other fantasies myself, unfortunately i don't have the time.
And I already said that the whole terrorism thing is semantics and not really important.

bob
18th May 07, 06:30 AM
This is Internet speak for "I have no idea how to disprove/refute/challenge him." There's really no need to so childish and emotional about this.

I know you are, but what am I?

Matsufubu
18th May 07, 07:54 AM
Well, I doubt there are many Muslims who have such names, but what is your point?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampage_(arcade_game)

"Rampaging" is such an evocative, overblown description of what is happening in Europe. Go back a few centuries to the Ottoman Empire's naughtiness and I'll take your point. If you didn't mean to use the word "rampaging", and were instead referring to cultural changes due to Muslims spreading across Europe, then there's a sensible point to debate. "Rampaging" just made me laugh, that is my point.



If you are saying that no such rampaging occurs where you live, it again demonstrates the fallacy of personal experiences.

Well, they're not rampaging any more than anyone else as far as I'm aware.

Links to reports of Muslim rampages across Europe please, followed by your explanation as to how they are worse and more frequent than equivalent rampages by anybody else.

ergo
18th May 07, 08:02 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rampage_(arcade_game)

"Rampaging" is such an evocative, overblown description of what is happening in Europe. Go back a few centuries to the Ottoman Empire's naughtiness and I'll take your point. If you didn't mean to use the word "rampaging", and were instead referring to cultural changes due to Muslims spreading across Europe, then there's a sensible point to debate. "Rampaging" just made me laugh, that is my point.
Bullshido users are really keen on semantics, aren't they?

By rampaging I don't mean just the rioting that's taken place in France and Sweden, but the lawlessness, violence and vandalism, and the occasional acts of terrorism (not to mention the occasional acts of failed terrorism).


Links to reports of Muslim rampages across Europe please, followed by your explanation as to how they are worse and more frequent than equivalent rampages by anybody else.
I am not aware of any other group in Europe behaving the same way (except maybe non-Muslim immigrants from Africa), and I don't like to play moral equivalency games anyway.

Shawarma
18th May 07, 09:21 AM
Nothing of particular note has happened in Sweden. Fuckface.

See? You still fail to earn civility.

Shawarma
18th May 07, 09:25 AM
Also, to further elaborate on what a cockwhore you are: The riots in France had as little to do with the majority of the rioters being Muslim as the Rodney King riots had to do with the blacks being Christians. The French Muslim clerics did, in fact, call for the hotheaded stupid youths overturning cars and smashing windows to cut out that shit and act like civilized people, only to be mostly ignored.

Matsufubu
18th May 07, 09:37 AM
Bullshido users are really keen on semantics, aren't they?

If by "semantics" you mean "using the correct words", then yes. It's like saying a couple of kids fighting in the playground are "rampaging through the school". If you mean "rioting in Europe", then just say "rioting in Europe". "Rampaging across Europe" just sounds stupid.




By rampaging I don't mean just the rioting that's taken place in France and Sweden, but the lawlessness, violence and vandalism, and the occasional acts of terrorism (not to mention the occasional acts of failed terrorism).

My point is that they're no worse at it than anybody else. Football hooligans, the miners' strike in UK, several decades of the IRA...

As for France, there were students rioting not long ago, and the truck drivers are always causing a ruckus about something. The point is that somebody, somewhere is causing civil unrest. Today's boogeyman just happens to be a Muslim. I don't deny that there are many, many problems with regards to Muslims and society, but...you said they were "rampaging across Europe", blatantly trying to evoke images of the Mongol hordes at our gates. It sounded funny, that's all.



I am not aware of any other group in Europe behaving the same way (except maybe non-Muslim immigrants from Africa), and I don't like to play moral equivalency games anyway.

You are rampaging across this board with nonsense. There's trouble from all directions about everything. Your dislike of Muslims is showing rather too obviously. Come up with something that proves Muslims to be intrinsically worse than anybody else. Teenagers with ASBOs, Yardies and gun-toting gangs are all bigger problems than Muslims in the UK.

Shawarma
18th May 07, 09:53 AM
Actually, there are certainly problems with Muslims in Europe. It's just very questionable that these problems (segregating in ghettos, violent youths, stupidity, unemployment, general "nigga" behaviour) has anything at all to do with them being Muslims. I don't see it, for one.

Yiktin Voxbane
18th May 07, 10:45 AM
Wow, whatta shitstorm, and here I am thinking I have sent the thread down a pleasant Harry Potter-lined theme ...

Also...wee-wee poo-poo

:EDIT: just 1 H in Harry:ENDEDIT:

ergo
18th May 07, 07:54 PM
Nothing of particular note has happened in Sweden. Fuckface.
I'm guessing you're... 14 years old? Is that about right?

Some writings about Sweden, by the blogger Fjordman:
War againts Swedes (http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2006/03/war-against-swedes.html)
Dark side of paradise (http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2006/05/new-york-times-and-sweden-dark-side-of.html)
Sweden: still crazy after all these years (http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1671)
Sweden: the country that sacrifices its children and celebrates (http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2007/01/sweden-country-that-sacrifices-its.html)
Jihad and the collapse of the Swedish model (http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/016112.php)

Similiar events are taking place in other countries in Europe, such as France, Germany and Britain. The last article also mentions the riots that took place in Malmö which, according to you, are "nothing of particular note."


Also, to further elaborate on what a cockwhore you are:
I'd really love to know why you take this so personally.


The riots in France had as little to do with the majority of the rioters being Muslim as the Rodney King riots had to do with the blacks being Christians. The French Muslim clerics did, in fact, call for the hotheaded stupid youths overturning cars and smashing windows to cut out that shit and act like civilized people, only to be mostly ignored.
Yes, Muslim leaders do often attempt damage control.


Actually, there are certainly problems with Muslims in Europe. It's just very questionable that these problems (segregating in ghettos, violent youths, stupidity, unemployment, general "nigga" behaviour) has anything at all to do with them being Muslims. I don't see it, for one.
They're all Muslims, and their behavior doesn't seem to be affected by what kind of society they're in. Same problems in France and Sweden, even though they're very different countries. I have no reason whatsoever to believe that their behavior does not stem from their culture.


My point is that they're no worse at it than anybody else. Football hooligans, the miners' strike in UK, several decades of the IRA...
Football hooligans really aren't comparable, as much as you'd like to believe so.


As for France, there were students rioting not long ago, and the truck drivers are always causing a ruckus about something. The point is that somebody, somewhere is causing civil unrest. Today's boogeyman just happens to be a Muslim. I don't deny that there are many, many problems with regards to Muslims and society, but...you said they were "rampaging across Europe", blatantly trying to evoke images of the Mongol hordes at our gates. It sounded funny, that's all.
Long live moral equivalence. If there's at least one person out there who's misbehaving, it means that everyone is equally guilty at all times. I'm pretty sure that in some future history book it will be explained that everyone was equally guilty of the events of World War II. If someone is singled out, it could hurt their feelings.

Shawarma
18th May 07, 08:27 PM
Your source of information on Sweden is....a blogger. Interesting. I get my information from reading the local newspapers and conversing with Swedes. And Sweden really has not seen any large-scale riots like France did. They have the usual problems with badly integrated immigrants, but on a small scale compared to places like the Parisian suburbs.

So basically, you fail. Now, I will give you a bone and allow you the opportunity to sound informed: Describe how their "culture" makes them riot in the European streets. I want you to identify the specific aspects of "their" "culture" which causes "them" to do this.

Also please note: At this point, Ergo goes away from dissing "Islam" to dissing the "culture" of people from the middle east. The two things are not identical, as I sincerely hope you realize.

ergo
18th May 07, 08:44 PM
Your source of information on Sweden is....a blogger.
He provides plenty of sources and cites other people, including government officials. Does all the information he provide become invalid just because he's a blogger? That is, if he cites a story from the BBC or similiar source, does the story become magically invalid? I'd like to know how that works.


I get my information from reading the local newspapers and conversing with Swedes.
Fjordman also cites many newspapers. So, either newspapers are a valid source of information or they aren't. Which is it?


Describe how their "culture" makes them riot in the European streets. I want you to identify the specific aspects of "their" "culture" which causes "them" to do this.
I guess Jihad is the leading cause. They have a religious duty to wage war againts infidels and conquer their lands. They also believe that their religious laws come straight from God and supercede man-made laws, so they won't necessarily be paying too much attention to what secular French or Swedish law says. They believe they're superior to infidel scum and don't need to care about their customs, culture or laws. Also, their attitudes towards women and sexuality cause them to commit rape far more than other cultural groups (not sure about non-Muslim Africans though).


Also please note: At this point, Ergo goes away from dissing "Islam" to dissing the "culture" of people from the middle east. The two things are not identical, as I sincerely hope you realize.
No, I'm specifically referring to Islamic culture. It's not just a religion.

Shawarma
18th May 07, 09:14 PM
1. Bloggers are not valid sources of information for anything, especially not bloggers citing articles written in languages you don't speak about issues you have no background knowledge of. He sees violence in the streets involving Arabs. He interprets it as an actual guerilla war against everything he holds good and holy comitted by pagan niggers. People with any kind of sense who have actually ever talked to the kind of immigrant punks who pull this off realize that it's not quite as grand a scheme as that. Muslim immigrants are the niggers of Europe - poorer, worse educated, strange looking, isolated from the majority ethnic groups because of economic and racial reasons. They are therefore also vastly overrepresented in the criminal statistics, like black people are in the US. This is, I believe, a much larger contributing factor to the amount of crime comitted by immigrants than any "cultural" issues, mainly because the same thing goes for the local Slavonic immigrants.

Yes, I know of people like Fjordman. They are, almost without exceptions, stupid-ass racists whose only experiences with the nigger population has been cowering in fear when somebody with a dark complexion walks past their house. If you want to read stuff from a bigot who actually had a POINT, you should look into Pim Fortuyn, Dutchman that got iced. His very, very valid point was that, as an openly gay man, he was lower than slime to almost all middle eastern immigrants, both for reasons of religion, machismo and social conservatism. That is an argument that makes sense, because it's generally true.

Here's a newsflash for you: The people comitting the crimes Fjordman is talking about are fucking awful Muslims. I know a number of young immigrants who spend their time drinking, scrapping and fornicating strangers. This is not Islamic behaviour by any standard possible. They are not little shits because they're Muslims. They break any rule Mohammed has ever made and wouldn't know the Qur'an from a porn mag. The actual faithful Muslims generally keep to themselves and don't cause significant social problems.

Europe has a problem with immigration, not religion.

Lastly: No, there is no such thing as "Islamic Culture." Is Somali and Indonesian culture identical? Do Malaysians and Iranians do everything the exact same way? Do you know ANYTHING about the Muslim religion? If you do, you don't show it.

Keep in mind: I do not especially LIKE most middle easterners I meet. The women are fugly and the young men often have HUGE egos and feel a need to constantly inform everyone about how goddamn awesome they are, which I personally find very tiresome. I DO however take issue with ignorant cocklickers such as yourself making UNINFORMED blanket statements about religious and ethnic groups that you know next to nothing about. I give a free pass to people like my uncle: He fucking hates Arabs, but he worked in Arabia for some thirty years and bases his dislike on personal experiences with Arabs. You base yours on stupid shit you read written by bloggers with an axe to grind.

Just to give you credit for the single good point you made: Yep, Muslims are generally less nice towards women than Christians are. Womens lib movements in Muslim countries aren't very advanced as of yet. People saying that Islam is not a sexist religion are whitewashing it, in my opinion.

Zendetta
18th May 07, 09:15 PM
Ergo, a few questions, if you don't mind...

.... are you a Nazi? Just askin' ....

and,

.... do you personally know any muslims?

.... what do you propose to deal with the mohamedan menace?

Shawarma
18th May 07, 09:17 PM
Well, I propose that a large number of young Mohammedans get their clocks cleaned on a regular basis. Won't solve anything, but maybe they'll stop talking about how goddamn awesome they are for just a second then...

Zendetta
18th May 07, 09:25 PM
Where the fuck do you live anyway?

And, BTW, if you eat shavings off their weird-ass meat-tower, you are basically part of the probelm, no?

Shawarma
18th May 07, 09:28 PM
Scandinavia. And I really don't want to know more about your fantasies about Muslim "meat towers."

Zendetta
18th May 07, 09:29 PM
This is no time to play coy. Apparently, Barbarians are at the Gates.

Shawarma
18th May 07, 09:38 PM
Anyway, here is Ergo's Muslim FAQ:

1. Muslims are mammals
2. Muslims explode ALL THE TIME
3. The purpose of the Muslim is to flip out and behead infidels

frumpleswift
18th May 07, 09:45 PM
Scandinavia. And I really don't want to know more about your fantasies about Muslim "meat towers."

Yummy halal goodness?

ergo
18th May 07, 10:20 PM
1. Bloggers are not valid sources of information for anything, especially not bloggers citing articles written in languages you don't speak about issues you have no background knowledge of.
He cites many many articles in English, and to date I have not seen anyone tell him that he's misleading his readers about the contents of the non-English articles he's citing. By saying that bloggers are not a valid source of information for anything, you are saying that any information they cite becomes invalid by association. That is, if the BBC reports something, their report becomes invalid as soon as it's blogged by somebody. How does this work? I'd like to know the technical details.


He sees violence in the streets involving Arabs. He interprets it as an actual guerilla war against everything he holds good and holy comitted by pagan niggers.
Some of the violent people in question have admitted that they are waging a war againts Swedes, and their behavior is war-like anyway. Also, Fjordman does not use words like pagan and nigger. You said them, not him.


People with any kind of sense who have actually ever talked to the kind of immigrant punks who pull this off realize that it's not quite as grand a scheme as that. Muslim immigrants are the niggers of Europe - poorer, worse educated, strange looking, isolated from the majority ethnic groups because of economic and racial reasons. They are therefore also vastly overrepresented in the criminal statistics, like black people are in the US. This is, I believe, a much larger contributing factor to the amount of crime comitted by immigrants than any "cultural" issues, mainly because the same thing goes for the local Slavonic immigrants.
Considering the fact that Muslims behave in roughly the same way everywhere they go, it's highly unlikely that their problems are caused by external and local factors such as racism, factors which don't seem to have much if any effect on most other ethnic and cultural groups. Even in the highly tolerant multicultural welfare state of Sweden Muslims are out of control, and act like they're an invading army. A country like Sweden could not possibly become any more tolerant or helpful towards Muslims, yet it's still not enough.

Racism and xenophobia are bogeymen invented by multiculturalists and their ilk. Everywhere you turn, somebody is preaching about tolerance, diversity and multiculturalism, and warning about the dangers of racism and bigotry. The few people who are in any way critical of Islam, multiculturalism or immigration policy are right-wing extremists, xenophobes, Islamophobes, racists and nazis. Seems unlikely that Muslims could be suffering from oppression and racism in an environment like that.


Yes, I know of people like Fjordman. They are, almost without exceptions, stupid-ass racists whose only experiences with the nigger population has been cowering in fear when somebody with a dark complexion walks past their house.
And once again the enlightened anti-racists rush to turn everything into a race issue, so they can accuse everyone else of racism. Fjordman is not viewing this in terms of race and biology, but apparently you are. So who's the real racist here?

I have read everything Fjordman has written. It's not about race or biology, and he doesn't use terms like nigger.


Here's a newsflash for you: The people comitting the crimes Fjordman is talking about are fucking awful Muslims. I know a number of young immigrants who spend their time drinking, scrapping and fornicating strangers. This is not Islamic behaviour by any standard possible. They are not little shits because they're Muslims. They break any rule Mohammed has ever made and wouldn't know the Qur'an from a porn mag. The actual faithful Muslims generally keep to themselves and don't cause significant social problems.
I'm sure it seems that way, if you think of Islam as a Religion of Peace.


Lastly: No, there is no such thing as "Islamic Culture." Is Somali and Indonesian culture identical? Do Malaysians and Iranians do everything the exact same way? Do you know ANYTHING about the Muslim religion? If you do, you don't show it.
Islam is a total regulation of life and a total explanation of the universe. Such extensive regulation constitutes a culture. When I'm referring to Islamic culture I'm referring to all the attitudes, tenets, teachings, laws and principles of Islam.


I give a free pass to people like my uncle: He fucking hates Arabs, but he worked in Arabia for some thirty years and bases his dislike on personal experiences with Arabs. You base yours on stupid shit you read written by bloggers with an axe to grind.
Hmm. You are referring to the personal experiences of your uncle, and his personal experiences are valid. However, if Fjordman refers to the personal experiences of other people, those experiences are invalid. I would like to know what this logic is based on. Fjordman is a reputable blogger who provides sources for his claims, while you are a random guy on a messageboard, giving no sources. Who, I wonder, is more reliable from my perspective?


are you a Nazi?
No. Why would I be a nazi? Nazi accusations are pretty funny considering how I'm a supporter of Israel and an opponent of a religion that's deeply hostile towards Jews, and Israel in particular.


do you personally know any muslims?
No. But, as I've repeatedly explained, a small amount of personal experiences are nonsense in this case. We're talking about hundreds of millions of people all over the world. Whether or not I know a couple of Muslims is laughably meaningless, and has no effect on reality (whether or not I know Muslims doesn't change the events in southern Thailand or Iraq).


what do you propose to deal with the mohamedan menace?
Muslim immigration must be suspended indefinitely, and existing Muslims must be forced to integrate. Zero tolerance towards Islamic customs that are not compatible with the laws and traditions of the country. Zero tolerance towards mosques and clerics teaching Jihad and related beliefs. No bullshit special treatment for Muslims. And so on.

frumpleswift
18th May 07, 10:54 PM
I already know you are an idiot, so it makes no difference what I say, but if you can't see that you are an ignorant bigot by rereading your last post you are truly a moron.


Muslim immigration must be suspended indefinitely, and existing Muslims must be forced to integrate. Zero tolerance towards Islamic customs that are not compatible with the laws and traditions of the country. Zero tolerance towards mosques and clerics teaching Jihad and related beliefs. No bullshit special treatment for Muslims. And so on.

Too bad we have that whole pesky constitution thing isn't it.

ergo
18th May 07, 11:03 PM
I already know you are an idiot, so it makes no difference what I say, but if you can't see that you are an ignorant bigot by rereading your last post you are truly a moron.
Please explain how I'm an ignorant bigot. Or alternatively, explain why Muslims should be allowed to practise customs that are againts the laws and traditions of a country, and why they should be allowed to preach about Jihad againts unbelievers and so forth.


Too bad we have that whole pesky constitution thing isn't it.
I was not referring to the US. But, if there was a situation where saving the country would require you to ignore the constitution, would you do it?

frumpleswift
18th May 07, 11:38 PM
Please explain how I'm an ignorant bigot. Or alternatively, explain why Muslims should be allowed to practise customs that are againts the laws and traditions of a country, and why they should be allowed to preach about Jihad againts unbelievers and so forth.

Explain to you in words that you would actually understand? I think it would be easier to teach calculus to a retarded chimpanzee.


I was not referring to the US. But, if there was a situation where saving the country would require you to ignore the constitution, would you do it?

No. I'd rather see the country go down in flames. *


*Unfortunately what the constitution is and says is a matter of much heated debate, and this country has pretty much pissed kerosene all over the constitution already anyways.

ergo
18th May 07, 11:46 PM
Explain to you in words that you would actually understand? I think it would be easier to teach calculus to a retarded chimpanzee.
If you can't explain how I'm a bigot or why Muslims should be allowed to do the aforementioned things, why did you say anything in the first place?

frumpleswift
18th May 07, 11:52 PM
If you can't explain how I'm a bigot or why Muslims should be allowed to do the aforementioned things, why did you say anything in the first place?

An excellent point. You sir are about to become the very first member in a very exclusive club, my ignore list.

Congratulations.

ergo
18th May 07, 11:55 PM
An excellent point. You sir are about to become the very first member in a very exclusive club, my ignore list.

Congratulations.
Wait... you claim I'm an ignorant bigot, and can't explain why. When I point out that you have no explanation for your claim, you act like I'm some kind of asshole and ignore me?

I don't get it.

OZZ
19th May 07, 01:00 AM
Good riddance to Falwell..Ever notice how fanatic Christians are never demonized in the Western media the way fanatics from other religions are?

Matsufubu
19th May 07, 05:39 AM
Here's a newsflash for you: The people comitting the crimes Fjordman is talking about are fucking awful Muslims. I know a number of young immigrants who spend their time drinking, scrapping and fornicating strangers. This is not Islamic behaviour by any standard possible. They are not little shits because they're Muslims. They break any rule Mohammed has ever made and wouldn't know the Qur'an from a porn mag. The actual faithful Muslims generally keep to themselves and don't cause significant social problems.

Europe has a problem with immigration, not religion.


This is the point.

Here in the UK we have A LOT of Polish immigrants. There was recently an article in the newspapers about Polish road signs having been put up illegally. There's rarely a day goes by without one of the newspapers telling us that our country is going to pot because of immigrant group X or Y.

Does this mean Polish people are baddies? No, it means that it's a different culture, that integration is important, and so are immigration levels.

They are no ramapaging through Europe, and neither are Muslims. That does not mean that I'm denying that there is a problem; it means that I think that the problem is not down to their genetic make-up or religion. Same with Muslims.

I love it when people tell me what is happening in my country. Where are you from, ergo?

ergo
19th May 07, 06:44 AM
and neither are Muslims.
Right. We'll just ignore the riots, the terrorism, the violence and the enclaves.


That does not mean that I'm denying that there is a problem; it means that I think that the problem is not down to their genetic make-up or religion. Same with Muslims.
If Muslims have a religious duty to conquer the lands of infidels, it's quite obvious that their religion is to blame.


I love it when people tell me what is happening in my country. Where are you from, ergo?
Yet another fallacy. If somebody tells me something happened in my country, I'm not going to think "well I live here, so it couldn't have happened." And if somebody else from my country says that something has happened, I'm not going to think "I didn't personally experience it, so it couldn't have happened."

We're living in the year 2007. Information travels everywhere.

Matsufubu
19th May 07, 09:40 AM
Right. We'll just ignore the riots, the terrorism, the violence and the enclaves.

Did I ask people to ignore anything? Did I not say that there are "many, many problems" associated with Muslim immigration? My original response to you was about you saying that they were "rampaging across Europe" - a deliberate attempt to stir up visions of hordes of barbarians destroying our way of life. With any immigrant group there are riots and enclaves. The problem is that Muslim immigrants have not been integrated, not has immigration control been strict enough. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq exacerbated the problems.



If Muslims have a religious duty to conquer the lands of infidels, it's quite obvious that their religion is to blame.

Do Christians bother with even a tenth of what's written in the Bible? No. It's a cultural thing. Like Shwarma said, it's the bored, disaffected teens and young men that cause trouble.



Yet another fallacy. If somebody tells me something happened in my country, I'm not going to think "well I live here, so it couldn't have happened." And if somebody else from my country says that something has happened, I'm not going to think "I didn't personally experience it, so it couldn't have happened."

We're living in the year 2007. Information travels everywhere.

I don't think "well I live here, so it couldn't have happened."
I think "Well I live here, so perhaps I'm more informed on what's going on in my own country, since I read the newspapers and watch the news every day, plus have an understanding of what problems my country actually faces, instead of pursuing some blatant anti-Muslim agenda".

If you're trying to imply that I think Muslims don't cause problems, then you are wrong. I think there are many problems relating to Muslim immigration that need to be addressed. However, there are many problems caused by all groups (immigrants being one), not necessarily by virtue of their religion.

Muslims are immigrating, yes. Forming enclaves, yes. Sometimes rioting, yes. Sometimes planning terrorist plots, yes. BUT...these are all problems that have been around well before 9/11.

I do not think that Muslims are "rampaging across Europe", because they're not. It is not a matter of semantics, it is a matter of deliberately painting a picture of Europe being destroyed by the Muslim menace.

I don't think you're a Nazi or whichever insults have been thrown your way, but I do think you're anti-Muslim. Given 9/11 and media coverage nowadays I understand why, but it's not a great agenda to pursue.

Shawarma
19th May 07, 10:27 AM
Pretty much agree with Matsufubu, although the word "enclave" always struck me as strange. Sounds rather sinister - What is the difference between an "enclave" and a "ghetto?"

And spell my name right, dammit!

frumpleswift
19th May 07, 10:29 AM
Pretty much agree with Matsufubu, although the word "enclave" always struck me as strange. Sounds rather sinister - What is the difference between an "enclave" and a "ghetto?"

And spell my name right, dammit!

Enclave does not necessarily imply poor.

Swollenllama

Edit:

Also, enclave has some overtones of American born terrorists. You know seclusionist gun-nuts living in highly fortified enclaves.

Swarmingrama

ergo
19th May 07, 10:35 AM
Did I ask people to ignore anything? Did I not say that there are "many, many problems" associated with Muslim immigration? My original response to you was about you saying that they were "rampaging across Europe" - a deliberate attempt to stir up visions of hordes of barbarians destroying our way of life.
I really can't understand why anyone could seriously interpret "rampaging" as "invading army destroying Europe."


With any immigrant group there are riots and enclaves.
Hardly. Have Vietnamese immigrants, for instance, exhibited behavior identical or highly similiar to that of Muslims? I have not heard of riots, demonstrations ("behead those who insult Vietnam"), violent no-go zones, rape sprees and general hostility towards anything Western. You're just playing moral equivalence games, like everyone else these days.


The problem is that Muslim immigrants have not been integrated, not has immigration control been strict enough. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq exacerbated the problems.
They don't want to integrate.


Do Christians bother with even a tenth of what's written in the Bible? No. It's a cultural thing. Like Shwarma said, it's the bored, disaffected teens and young men that cause trouble.
Christians =! Muslims.


I don't think "well I live here, so it couldn't have happened." I think "Well I live here, so perhaps I'm more informed on what's going on in my own country, since I read the newspapers and watch the news every day, plus have an understanding of what problems my country actually faces, instead of pursuing some blatant anti-Muslim agenda".
Many other people also live in your country, and they have quite different views.


BUT...these are all problems that have been around well before 9/11.
Of course. But so what? This isn't about 9/11. I didn't pay any attention to Islam or Muslims after 9/11.


I do not think that Muslims are "rampaging across Europe", because they're not. It is not a matter of semantics, it is a matter of deliberately painting a picture of Europe being destroyed by the Muslim menace.
Europe is being destroyed, but not in a "invading army burning down cities" sense. There's a good chance that some countries will simply collapse within the next 50-100 years. Some people predict that it will happen even sooner.


Pretty much agree with Matsufubu, although the word "enclave" always struck me as strange. Sounds rather sinister - What is the difference between an "enclave" and a "ghetto?"
Merriam-Webster:

distinct territorial, cultural, or social unit enclosed within or as if within foreign territory
I think that's a good description of the kind of areas that Muslims have formed.

Shawarma
19th May 07, 10:54 AM
So what's the difference between that and a ghetto? I weren't asking you, by the way.

ergo
19th May 07, 11:26 AM
Well, it's not the same thing as a ghetto, so... that's the difference. The Muslim enclaves aren't just poor and restless parts of town, they're cultural units enclosed within foreign territory, inhabited by people who believe it's their religious duty to conquer that foreign territory.

Shawarma
19th May 07, 11:45 AM
Has it ever occured to you that MAYBE Muslims are NOT ants?

frumpleswift
19th May 07, 11:48 AM
Has it ever occured to you that MAYBE Muslims are NOT ants?

They can't be ants, ants have a hive society run by a queen, and as we all know Muslims hate women.

Muslims are more like cockroaches. Less organized than ants, but definitely more disgusting and very unhealthy in large numbers.

Edit: And to get back on topic, Jerry Falwell was more like a pustule growing on a baboon's ass.

ergo
19th May 07, 12:06 PM
Has it ever occured to you that MAYBE Muslims are NOT ants?
By"ants" do you mean that they have a strong group mentality? Because they do have one.

Shawarma
19th May 07, 12:25 PM
Yes. In a million different little groups and interpretations of the religion. Making blanket statements about "Muslims" is pointless for this reason, because Islam is the Wing Chun of religions - Everybody claims to have the real Islam and the different denominations can't agree on shit and choose to uphold and ignore different parts of the Qur'an.

By "ants" I mean that you seem to think that Muslims are a hive-people bent on working together for one singular purpose: To destroy any culture but their own and installing a global caliphate. Sure, some Muslims believe this. They are the laughing stock of the Islamic community.

Where you go wrong is that you don't think of Muslims as people. You think of them as Zerg.

Zendetta
19th May 07, 12:29 PM
Ergo, you make a few good points, and the larger issue you are trying to raise is, imo, more real and much more important than the PC types want to believe. But you've spouted so much stupid bullshit in the last couple of pages, I can only respond to some "greatest hits".


Racism and xenophobia are bogeymen invented by multiculturalists and their ilk.

THese topics may be often coopted to serve a particular agenda, but its apparent to me that "racism" and "xenophobia" are, in fact, real tendencies endemic in human nature. aka "don't be stupid"


We're talking about hundreds of millions of people all over the world. Whether or not I know a couple of Muslims is laughably meaningless, and has no effect on reality (whether or not I know Muslims doesn't change the events in southern Thailand or Iraq).

Whats laughable is how badly you miss the point: if you actually knew any muslems, you might notice that many of them are regular folks. Instead you rely on polemical bloggers to give you info about whats going on outside your cloistered world. Pretty fucking weak.


If Muslims have a religious duty to conquer the lands of infidels, it's quite obvious that their religion is to blame.

Continuing the above example, if you actually knew any muslem people, you would know that most are less concerned with "Jihad" than with other islamic 'obligations', like "charity" for example.


Zero tolerance towards Islamic customs that are not compatible with the laws and traditions of the country.

THis is highly telling. FYI, Traditions =/= Laws.

Start there and work backwards thru the fact that you have no personal experience outside of highly polemical sources, and then reflect on the fact that bloggers like Fjordman have as dense an agenda, and thus reason to misinform, as those darned multiculturalists (ooooh, bogeyman in da house!)

danno
19th May 07, 12:32 PM
NO NO NO NO

you're going about it all the wrong way. we need sensible, yet drastic measures to solve this problem. say it with me:

concentration camps.

gas chambers.

slave labour.

soap.

i've planted the seed. let the mighty oak of justice take root my brothers.

Shawarma
19th May 07, 01:00 PM
Worst idea ever. Do YOU want to wash yourself with Muslim-soap?

danno
19th May 07, 01:14 PM
Worst idea ever. Do YOU want to wash yourself with Muslim-soap?

nothing better to cleanse yourself of tyranny.

ergo
19th May 07, 01:20 PM
Yes. In a million different little groups and interpretations of the religion. Making blanket statements about "Muslims" is pointless for this reason, because Islam is the Wing Chun of religions - Everybody claims to have the real Islam and the different denominations can't agree on shit and choose to uphold and ignore different parts of the Qur'an.
From an infidel's point of view there isn't much difference between the various sects of Islam.


By "ants" I mean that you seem to think that Muslims are a hive-people bent on working together for one singular purpose: To destroy any culture but their own and installing a global caliphate. Sure, some Muslims believe this. They are the laughing stock of the Islamic community.
They are not the laughing stock of the Islamic community. They form the majority, for all intents and purposes.


THese topics may be often coopted to serve a particular agenda, but its apparent to me that "racism" and "xenophobia" are, in fact, real tendencies endemic in human nature. aka "don't be stupid"
I never said anything about human nature. I meant that racism and xenophobia perpetrated by white Christians is practically a myth these days.


Whats laughable is how badly you miss the point: if you actually knew any muslems, you might notice that many of them are regular folks.
So what if I knew, say, five peaceful Muslims? Would it have any effect on the events in Thailand, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Indonesia and so forth? Would it change what Muslims are doing in Europe? Would it affect crime statistics or what's being taught in mosques? Would it change the Quran's contents? And just how important are a couple of Muslims in the grand scheme of things? Again, we are talking about hundreds of millions of people all over the world.

What's really laughable is that knowing a couple of Muslims instantly proves that Islam is a religion of peace and the overwhelming majority of Muslims are peaceful, yet a demonstration of thousands of Muslims (I mean the "behead those who insult Islam" kind of demonstration) does not prove anything and is completely meaningless. Any way you look at it, it's totally irrational and illogical, but I guess that's what happens when you rely exclusively on limited personal experiences and completely ignore everything that's happening outside your immediate surroundings.


Instead you rely on polemical bloggers to give you info about whats going on outside your cloistered world. Pretty fucking weak.
My world is cloistered? You're the one who relies solely on direct personal experiences to the exclusion of everything else. Also, I don't by any means get all or even most of my information from bloggers (not that it matters whether I do or not).


Continuing the above example, if you actually knew any muslem people, you would know that most are less concerned with "Jihad" than with other islamic 'obligations', like "charity" for example.
How can you determine that? How can you talk to a few Muslims and determine that most of them are not concerned with Jihad? There are millions of Muslims who fervently believe in Jihadism and related nonsense. So how exactly did you reach the conclusion that a couple of Muslims you know represent what the majority of Muslims think?


THis is highly telling. FYI, Traditions =/= Laws.
By traditions I meant the general attitudes and beliefs of the populace, such as attitudes towards gender equality and so forth.


Start there and work backwards thru the fact that you have no personal experience outside of highly polemical sources, and then reflect on the fact that bloggers like Fjordman have as dense an agenda, and thus reason to misinform, as those darned multiculturalists (ooooh, bogeyman in da house!)
What agenda does he have? Do explain.

Zendetta
19th May 07, 01:32 PM
So what if I knew, say, five peaceful Muslims?

If you knew five decent muslems and zero violent crazy ones, it would deconstruct your opinions that "all" or "most" muslems are nutso fanatics with a bomb in their turban.

Before you try to project any more stupid generalizations on me, you should know that I don't think Islam is a "religion of peace". I think its the same retarded mideival bullshit as Christianity and Judaism, with a few centuries less maturity and cultural development.

Shawarma
19th May 07, 01:37 PM
More correctly: The SOCIETIES that are Muslim are less socially advanced. The Islamic religion as described in the scriptures is really more liberal and progressive than either of the two other faiths. But no, it certainly isn't a "religion of peace", as meant in a pacifistic manner.

Zendetta
19th May 07, 01:41 PM
Very fair point. And of course there were long centuries where Islamic societies were far more advanced than European Christendom - the Arabs were inventing algebra while the europeans were still grappling with the finer points of sheep herding.


Aaaand.... part of the reason those societies are currently les advanced is that they are still beholden to medieval religion rather than secular cultural forces like teh sci3nc3.

Shawarma
19th May 07, 01:42 PM
Very likely.

Zendetta
19th May 07, 03:10 PM
.... so obviously we gotta bomb the fuck outta them to show them that bombing people is barbaric and cruel.

AAAhmed46
19th May 07, 03:21 PM
what?

No 3 in your t3h?

It's T3h D3&Dl3y $C13nc3!!!!!!!!!!!

AAAhmed46
19th May 07, 03:24 PM
And if you've ever mingled with arab/muslim gangs...most are openly violating islamic principle.

THey love thier beer, cigs. Many do weed.

Many have sex outside of wedlock(Yes islam is like christianity in that manner, though you can do anything with your wife, and she with you)
They fight for no reason but thier egos, they curse all the time.

Whether or not you guys believe islam is inherently violent is beyond the point in arguements concerning crimes commited by arabian gangs, other principles they clearly do not follow or care about.

They are stupid fucking teenagers.



Keep in mind: I do not especially LIKE most middle easterners I meet. The women are fugly and the young men often have HUGE egos and feel a need to constantly inform everyone about how goddamn awesome they are, which I personally find very tiresome.
Yeah, the 'arab' arrogance.

It would be funny if it wasn't so damn annoying.

Zendetta
19th May 07, 03:30 PM
THey love thier beer

An African friend was talking about how much the Arabs drank when they stayed at the nice hotel where he worked, I made a crack about "Sheik Al Kohol" and everybody fell apart laffing. Apparently the rich arab kid on a bender is pretty common.

Douchebaggery is universal in all human tribal groups.

Shawarma
19th May 07, 03:34 PM
My aforementioned uncle told me a story of standing in the customs line in some Arab state and getting searched all over for unislamic booze. Then he saw this sheikh walk past with a bag that literally clinked with duty-free liquor. Of course, nobody bothered the sheikh.

Must be why he hates them. Man gets furious when denied drink.

Matsufubu
19th May 07, 04:28 PM
Does he go on a rampage through Europe? I hear there's a lot of that going around.

Shawarma
19th May 07, 04:58 PM
Nah, he never makes it past Bayern. The breweries there are more powerful than his rage.

frumpleswift
19th May 07, 05:01 PM
The Germans are helping to suppress someones rage? How novel.

Shawarma
19th May 07, 05:02 PM
Not at all. When Germans commit massacres, they do it in a quiet, orderly and civilized manner.

frumpleswift
19th May 07, 05:09 PM
Not at all. When Germans commit massacres, they do it in a quiet, orderly and civilized manner.

I think the word you are looking for is efficient.

danno
19th May 07, 11:21 PM
americans in another 70 years:

OF4QALVjPf8

WarPhalange
19th May 07, 11:29 PM
I didn't see a single morbidly-obese person in that clip.

ergo
20th May 07, 12:54 AM
If you knew five decent muslems and zero violent crazy ones, it would deconstruct your opinions that "all" or "most" muslems are nutso fanatics with a bomb in their turban.
No, it would not. It could not. I know for a fact that there are millions of crazy ones out there. How would my limited personal experiences invalidate this fact?


More correctly: The SOCIETIES that are Muslim are less socially advanced. The Islamic religion as described in the scriptures is really more liberal and progressive than either of the two other faiths. But no, it certainly isn't a "religion of peace", as meant in a pacifistic manner.
Liberal and progressive? Yeah, it sure is. Islam, for example, often "liberates" women on a permanent basis. This liberation may come in the form of a bullet to the head (now she has been liberated from her Western and un-Islamic lifestyle). Even entire families (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/21/nmuslim21.xml) can be liberated.

Shawarma
20th May 07, 02:02 AM
Again, you fail. I specifically said "in the scriptures." Read the bible. Then read the Qur'an. Then consider which book is more progressive with regards to things like nonbelievers, equal rights, divorce, animal cruelty, charity and more. Mohammed was a bleeding heart liberal for his day and age.

ergo
20th May 07, 02:09 AM
Again, you fail. I specifically said "in the scriptures." Read the bible. Then read the Qur'an. Then consider which book is more progressive with regards to things like nonbelievers, equal rights, divorce, animal cruelty, charity and more. Mohammed was a bleeding heart liberal for his day and age.
I, too, was referring to scripture. The behavior I was talking about is based on Islamic texts, or at the very least somehow inspired by them. If the Bible is so much worse than the Quran etc., I'd love to know why Christians are behaving so well, and why Muslims are not.

Also, holy texts are ultimately just theory. You can cite violent or peaceful parts from any holy text until hell freezes over, but reality won't change as a result. Muslims are beheading people regardless of how you interpreted the Quran yesterday.

Shawarma
20th May 07, 02:15 AM
It's pretty evident you haven't got the slightest idea about what you're talking about.

Qur'an recognizes women as having rights that don't belong to their husbands and fathers and even allows them divorce, to inherit and to testify in court.

Qur'an tones down the punishment for adultery as found in the OT from death by stoning to fifty lashes.

Qur'an allows nonbelievers to live side-by-side with Muslims, even if the Muslim are not supposed to befriend them. This is not the MO for old-testament style religion.

Qur'an prohibits cruelty towards animals.

Qur'an stresses about 300 times that you should be charitable to strangers, which is about 250 times more than what the bible does.

The Qur'an is more liberal than either the OT or NT. The interpretations of the Qur'an are rarely so.

Qur'an says Ergo is an assclown. This is where it shows its prophetic nature and how it is the ultimate truth.

ergo
20th May 07, 02:26 AM
Qur'an recognizes women as having rights that don't belong to their husbands and fathers and even allows them divorce, to inherit and to testify in court.
Doesn't seem that way when you actually look at what Muslims are doing.


Qur'an tones down the punishment for adultery as found in the OT from death by stoning to fifty lashes.
Muslims have actually stoned people to death in recent years, but I must say I haven't heard of Christians doing the same. Haven't heard of lashings either, but recently a woman was sentenced to lashings in Saudi Arabia for committing the crime of getting gangraped.


Qur'an allows nonbelievers to live side-by-side with Muslims, even if the Muslim are not supposed to befriend them. This is not the MO for old-testament style religion.
Yes, it's the good old triple choice: convert, submit or die. Those who submit live as dhimmis, who are second class citizens subject to many restrictions. Religious minorities are still second class citizens in many Muslim countries, but I can't really say the same for Western countries.


Qur'an stresses about 300 times that you should be charitable to strangers, which is about 250 times more than what the bible does.
Mohammed said a lot of things before he became a murderous warlord.


The Qur'an is more liberal than either the OT or NT. The interpretations of the Qur'an are rarely so.
Muslim countries and communities are certainly very liberal compared to, say, the US or Sweden. Really.

I could actually go and find several passages from the Quran that are less than liberal and progressive, but they would be dismissed as "out of context," even though they perfectly fit Muslim behavior, whereas all the liberal and progressive stuff is nowhere to be seen. So, why bother.

Shawarma
20th May 07, 02:31 AM
So, you bitch out on the scriptural debate.

Thank you for realizing that you're not fit to discuss scripture with people who actually know it and reverting to your normal uninformed blanket statements, even though you were the one who began the scriptural discussion by saying that the Qur'an is not more liberal than the OT or NT. I shall now go back to my normal behaviour of ignoring you.

ergo
20th May 07, 02:57 AM
So, you bitch out on the scriptural debate.
I don't think it's very important. Regardless of how you (and I mean you, not the Muslim world) interpret it, it won't change anything. You can sit there and chant "the Quran is progressive and liberal" until the sun goes nova, but it won't matter. Islam is what it is. Likewise, you can spend the next two weeks pulling violent material from the Bible, but it won't change history or present reality or how Christians actually follow their religion and interpret its holy texts. Christians won't suddenly massacre religious minorities and rape their women just because you have, in your head, convinced yourself that this is what they should be doing.

Debating theory is so much easier than debating reality. You can't claim that Muslims are not beheading infidels in Thailand and Iraq, but you can at least somehow claim that they are not supposed to be doing it, as if that's supposed to make any difference.

Also, what really puzzles me is the idea that the Bible and Quran produce opposite results. Apparently, the Quran is incredibly progressive and liberal, yet the Muslim world is completely assbackwards, violent and oppressive. Meanwhile, the Bible is the most violent and horrible book ever written in the history of mankind, but the West rose to be the most advanced civilization to ever exist. Doesn't seem very logical to me. In fact, it's pretty incredible that the peaceful Quran could be so widely and consistently misinterpreted, while Christians are just unable to get some Old Testament carnage going on, even though it should be very easy to do so.

I wonder why communism didn't become capitalism, and vice versa. I guess this Law of Reversal doesn't apply to everything.

Lastly, I would say that it doesn't really matter what I think about Islam's holy texts, since the millions and millions of Muslims who form the de facto majority don't share your ideas about the peaceful and liberal nature of the Quran. What you are doing is similiar to what Muslims are doing: instead of convincing other Muslims that suicide bombing and beheading is wrong, they try to convince infidels that suicide bombing and beheading is wrong. But what's the fucking point?

Shawarma
20th May 07, 03:03 AM
Whatever, homo. I stated that the Qur'an is more liberal than the NT or OT, even if people practicing Islam is not neccesarily moreso than Christians or Jews. You say "No, the Qur'an is not more liberal!" I go on to call you a cockfag and demonstrate how you are wrong. You bitch out because you don't know the scriptures in question. End of story. This is all rehashing stuff we've been over with you not getting the point as usual.

ergo
20th May 07, 03:17 AM
Whatever, homo.
I previously estimated that you're about 14 years old, but I think that may have been too optimistic.


You bitch out because you don't know the scriptures in question. End of story. This is all rehashing stuff we've been over with you not getting the point as usual.
As I already said, I could cite non-liberal and non-progressive passages from the Quran (and I could do this by going to sites run by former Muslims), but they would be dismissed as out of context, as always.

Shawarma
20th May 07, 03:20 AM
Aye, you can. I'm not saying it's a progressive piece of literature. No religious book is - I'm saying that it's MORE LIBERAL THAN THE OLD TESTAMENT OR THE NEW TESTAMENT. But you're right, you would read it out of context and get the point wrong. Scripture really can't be read in bite-sized portions IMO, you need to read the whole thing to get a feel for the tone and essence of the commandments.

You really are a stupid assgay. And I'm 14½, thank you!

ergo
20th May 07, 03:27 AM
Aye, you can. I'm not saying it's a progressive piece of literature. No religious book is - I'm saying that it's MORE LIBERAL THAN THE OLD TESTAMENT OR THE NEW TESTAMENT.
All those things are abrogated by Mohammed's later teachings, so they mean nothing.


But you're right, you would read it out of context and get the point wrong. Scripture really can't be read in bite-sized portions IMO, you need to read the whole thing to get a feel for the tone and essence of the commandments.
And that's exactly why the Quran isn't as liberal or progressive as some think. Later, more violent and repressive teachings abrogate and supercede earlier ones.

Shawarma
20th May 07, 03:31 AM
As I'm sure you've read on Prophetofdoom, Oh Great And Noble Religious Scholar.
Stick to what you know: Blanket statements. Because you don't know the scripture.

If you want to know what I feel is a very legitimate criticism of the style and content of the Qur'an as a religious text, it is this: It is a very misanthropic and unfriendly book. It repeatedly states how Man is weak, Man is worthless, Man would not and could not exist without the good grace of God and it is only through God there is any worth to the insignificant pathetic lives of humanity. It's sort of disheartening, going through 700 pages of that.

Shawarma
20th May 07, 03:34 AM
Come to think of it, the abrogation argument is a downright lie in this case. The Qur'an never contradicts itself on equal rights, charity, cruelty towards animals, divorce laws, punishment laws or that Ergo is an assclown. It is consistent in its adressing of all these issues.

ergo
20th May 07, 04:14 AM
Come to think of it, the abrogation argument is a downright lie in this case. The Qur'an never contradicts itself on equal rights, charity, cruelty towards animals, divorce laws, punishment laws or that Ergo is an assclown. It is consistent in its adressing of all these issues.
The Quran permits slavery, and the rape of slaver girls. Since slavery and rape hardly constitutes equal rights, is it not a contradiction?

Shawarma
20th May 07, 05:30 AM
You insufferable assclown! READ WHAT I WRITE! COMPARED TO THE OT AND NT! The NT never says a peep about slavery, which means that the rules of the OT still apply, and the OT whole heartedly condones it as well as the raping of your POWs. Qur'an adresses slavery in that it is the duty of good Muslims to buy the freedom of Muslim slaves. OT and NT doesn't give a shit.

ergo
20th May 07, 05:50 AM
You insufferable assclown! READ WHAT I WRITE! COMPARED TO THE OT AND NT!
You were talking about consistency within the Quran, which is what I replied to.


The NT never says a peep about slavery, which means that the rules of the OT still apply
First time I've heard of such a concept.


and the OT whole heartedly condones it as well as the raping of your POWs.
Isn't it strange that the OT wholeheartedly condones slavery and rape, yet Christians don't enslave or rape people? Meanwhile, the Quran supposedly does not condone slavery or rape, yet Muslims enslave and rape people even to this day.


Qur'an adresses slavery in that it is the duty of good Muslims to buy the freedom of Muslim slaves.
Maybe it says that, but it also says that Muslims are permitted to have slaves and have sex with them.

Shawarma
20th May 07, 06:05 AM
Still an assclown. You attempt to change the subject away from what it is to lessen the pain in your ass after getting kicked in it.

Jesus refers to the OT on more than one occasion as being the law. The case I'm specifically thinking of is when he lambastes his followers for not following the OT method of child rearing, that is beating and killing them for disrespect. The NT and OT are connected. People denying this are liars. Or stupid, like you.

The Qur'an has no problem with slavery and rape of POWs (It's in favour of raping POWs more than slaves, just so you know. It specifically says that "taking wives from your POWs is permitted) But neither the OT or NT has a problem with slavery either. It's even in the ten commandments.

The subject is not whether the Qur'an is "liberal." I already stated that it isn't. It's a fucking book on religion. It's just MORE LIBERAL than the OT or NT.

You don't KNOW scripture. Just go away, make some more blanket statements, because you're not winning this.

ergo
20th May 07, 06:19 AM
Still an assclown. You attempt to change the subject away from what it is to lessen the pain in your ass after getting kicked in it.
How am I changing the subject? I think you were quite clearly talking about the Quran's internal consistency here:

Come to think of it, the abrogation argument is a downright lie in this case. The Qur'an never contradicts itself on equal rights, charity, cruelty towards animals, divorce laws, punishment laws or that Ergo is an assclown. It is consistent in its adressing of all these issues.


Jesus refers to the OT on more than one occasion as being the law. The case I'm specifically thinking of is when he lambastes his followers for not following the OT method of child rearing, that is beating and killing them for disrespect. The NT and OT are connected. People denying this are liars. Or stupid, like you.
If not knowing something makes a person stupid, then only an omniscient person is not stupid. Since there are no omniscient people in existence, all people must be stupid, including you.


The Qur'an has no problem with slavery and rape of POWs (It's in favour of raping POWs more than slaves, just so you know. It specifically says that "taking wives from your POWs is permitted) But neither the OT or NT has a problem with slavery either. It's even in the ten commandments.
The NT and OT do not resolve the Quran's internal inconsistencies.


You don't KNOW scripture. Just go away, make some more blanket statements, because you're not winning this.
So nobody except you knows scripture. Ok, I'm glad we've established that.

Shawarma
20th May 07, 06:31 AM
No, just you that don't know scripture from your sisters vagina. Which is why you keep fucking it up, I suppose.

I was talking about consistency in the matters listed in the quote above. It is consistent on those matters. The Qur'an is inconsistent to various degrees, depending on how you read it, on other matters, such as when to conduct holy war against infidels. This bit is a bit puzzling, because the way it's presented doesn't provide a clear context.

For anyone intelligent wondering about inconsistency in the Qur'an: The whole Qur'an actually invalidates itself in a rather amusing section which states that the word of God is final and absolute, God never changes his mind and his laws are valid forever. Then why, exactly, is it that he first gave the world the Jewish holy book, which the Qur'an refers to several times, and then suddenly felt the need to bring forth a NEW book with new rules, scrapping the old one? That seems like God DOES change his mind and that his words are NOT final and absolute.

God's proofreaders must have missed that particular self-contradicting section.

ergo
20th May 07, 06:55 AM
No, just you that don't know scripture from your sisters vagina. Which is why you keep fucking it up, I suppose.
There are many people who know Islam far better than you, and they disagree with you on several matters.


I was talking about consistency in the matters listed in the quote above. It is consistent on those matters.
I fail to see how slavery and rape are consistent with equal rights. If you add hadiths and sunnas into the mix, the consistency breaks down even more. Not that it even matters: Islam simply does not provide equal rights.

Shawarma
20th May 07, 07:04 AM
But you are not one of them. Go away.

ergo
20th May 07, 07:11 AM
But you are not one of them. Go away.
I don't pretend to know everything. If my knowledge about something is incomplete, I turn to the experts. The experts exist regardless of what I know or don't know, and you can't make them go away or invalidate their knowledge and views simply by dismissing me. I also utilize logical thinking, and in this case logical thinking leads me to conclude that the Quran cannot be liberal or more liberal than the Bible, for various reasons.

And it once again needs to be pointed out that arguing about theory is completely worthless and will not alter reality in any way, as much as you no doubt would like to believe it will.

Shawarma
20th May 07, 07:19 AM
So basically, you admit that you don't know a fucking thing and defer to the judgement of your ideological leaders. So happy we cleared that up. People not in the know might mistake you for somebody who knows what he's talking about, although I find it hard to imagine such a thing could happen.

Kiko
20th May 07, 07:28 AM
I never said anything about human nature. I meant that racism and xenophobia perpetrated by white Christians is practically a myth these days.

Not to jump into a perfectly fine ... debate, but this glared at me, especially given the ORIGINAL topic.

Unfortunately, ALL people, whether they follow whatever faith or none at all include good, kind, moral ones and either stupid, ignorant, annoying ones or plain old rotten, malicious, cruel ones and everything in between. Human nature applies to all.

Someone asked previously why other Christians don't denounce ones like Falwell. I'm not sure what the 'official' reason is, but something about casting the first stone comes to mind.

All this discussion about scripture is fascinating. Carry on!

ergo
20th May 07, 07:38 AM
So basically, you admit that you don't know a fucking thing and defer to the judgement of your ideological leaders.
I know a little, but I'm by no means an expert. And no, I'm not defering judgement to any "ideological leaders." Why are people automatically following some kind of nefarious "ideology" when they hold negative opinions about Islam? We're talking about people who have grown up in Islamic countries and have left the religion because they strongly disagree with it.


So happy we cleared that up. People not in the know might mistake you for somebody who knows what he's talking about, although I find it hard to imagine such a thing could happen.
You may know more about theology (at least in some ways) but, as has already been established, it's quite irrelevant.


Unfortunately, ALL people, whether they follow whatever faith or none at all include good, kind, moral ones and either stupid, ignorant, annoying ones or plain old rotten, malicious, cruel ones and everything in between. Human nature applies to all.
This is true, but culture determines how people turn out. A good, moral culture is far more likely to produce good, moral people than an evil, immoral culture.

Kiko
20th May 07, 07:47 AM
This is true, but culture determines how people turn out. A good, moral culture is far more likely to produce good, moral people than an evil, immoral culture.

And by your own logic, I shall conclude that you are from a culture that has poor reading comprehension. Have a nice day!

ergo
20th May 07, 08:02 AM
And by your own logic, I shall conclude that you are from a culture that has poor reading comprehension. Have a nice day!
Unfortunately my logic does not quite work like that, but how exactly did I misunderstand your post?

Quikfeet509
20th May 07, 08:32 AM
Isn't it strange that the OT wholeheartedly condones slavery and rape, yet Christians don't enslave or rape people? Meanwhile, the Quran supposedly does not condone slavery or rape, yet Muslims enslave and rape people even to this day.



Because Christians are religious on paper but don't have the stones to follow their own beliefs. It is easy to get up in the morning, put on some dress clothes, go to church, and then pay your money.


It isn't easy to kill your only son because god told you to, which is why most Christians are fakers. They pretend to follow the bible but pussy out when ever it gets a little challenging. That's why Jerry Falwell was such a great example of how a Christian should be. He hated all the right people and made no apologies about it.



I'm not sure which is worse - sanctimonious assclowns that fail to follow their own ridiculous beliefs or morons that are so devoid of humanity that they actually can.

ergo
20th May 07, 08:45 AM
Because Christians are religious on paper but don't have the stones to follow their own beliefs. It is easy to get up in the morning, put on some dress clothes, go to church, and then pay your money.

It isn't easy to kill your only son because god told you to, which is why most Christians are fakers. They pretend to follow the bible but pussy out when ever it gets a little challenging. That's why Jerry Falwell was such a great example of how a Christian should be. He hated all the right people and made no apologies about it.
I'm not an expert on theology but I know that Christianity does not function like that. Just because there's a story where God commands someone to sacrifice his son does not mean that Christians should do that (and I believe that story is allegorical anyway). The Bible has a lot of stuff in it, and some of it is not supposed to be followed or taken literally. Christianity has developed and evolved over the centuries. Just because you, personally, have constructed a theory according to which Christians should do this or that doesn't mean anything. Killing your son etc. simply is not part of the religion.

Shawarma
20th May 07, 08:53 AM
The above post is violently ironic.

ergo
20th May 07, 09:01 AM
The above post is violently ironic.
Please explain how it is violently ironic.

Shawarma
20th May 07, 09:54 AM
Then it wouldn't be violently ironic, would it?

ergo
20th May 07, 10:02 AM
Then it wouldn't be violently ironic, would it?
I guess it was just another random throwaway remark of no importance or relevance, so obviously it can't be explained or backed up.

Shawarma
20th May 07, 10:04 AM
And again!

frumpleswift
20th May 07, 10:07 AM
It repeatedly states how Man is weak, Man is worthless, Man would not and could not exist without the good grace of God and it is only through God there is any worth to the insignificant pathetic lives of humanity. It's sort of disheartening, going through 700 pages of that.

Wow...Luther must have been channeling the spirit of Mohammed when he came up with his wacky theology.

This reads just like Luther's idea of anfechtung, the total depravity of man, etc.

I think that there is room for an ecumenical movement between really depressing Christians and really depressing Muslims just based on this theology. Unfortunately the movement would no doubt inevitably collapse into bickering over whose God hated you more.

ergo
20th May 07, 10:22 AM
And again!
Man, you totally just said something really stupid, and I totally owned you and I won the debate. I won't tell you what I'm talking about, because you couldn't possibly understand.

Shawarma
20th May 07, 10:31 AM
That IS true.

Zendetta
20th May 07, 11:10 AM
Meanwhile, the Bible is the most violent and horrible book ever written in the history of mankind, but the West rose to be the most advanced civilization to ever exist. Doesn't seem very logical to me.

THe logic is clear. Why you arn't getting it is becoming more clear.

THe West became the most advanced civilization not because of biblical christianity, but despite it. The escape from the dogma of the church started with the Renaisance and peaked with the Enlightenment, leading up to the secular and scientific culture we have today.

PS - the Renaissance would not have happened if the goldurned muslems hadn't had a MORE ADVANCED culture than mideival christendom. Thier advanced culture had retained and built on the 'lost' knowledge of the classical world - and christian europe got pulled out of the dark ages.

Quikfeet509
20th May 07, 11:14 AM
The Bible has a lot of stuff in it, and some of it is not supposed to be followed or taken literally. Christianity has developed and evolved over the centuries. Just because you, personally, have constructed a theory according to which Christians should do this or that doesn't mean anything. Killing your son etc. simply is not part of the religion.



Wait a second. If the bible is the word of god, then how can you decide to ignore parts of it you don't "resonate" with?

ergo
20th May 07, 11:28 AM
THe logic is clear. Why you arn't getting it is becoming more clear.

THe West became the most advanced civilization not because of biblical christianity, but despite it. The escape from the dogma of the church started with the Renaisance and peaked with the Enlightenment, leading up to the secular and scientific culture we have today.
Christianity had its part in shaping Western civilization.


PS - the Renaissance would not have happened if the goldurned muslems hadn't had a MORE ADVANCED culture than mideival christendom. Thier advanced culture had retained and built on the 'lost' knowledge of the classical world - and christian europe got pulled out of the dark ages.
I don't have full knowledge of this subject, but I know there's been a lot of anti-Christian and pro-Muslim historical revisionism, stemming from the West's cultural self-hatred.


Wait a second. If the bible is the word of god, then how can you decide to ignore parts of it you don't "resonate" with?
I'm not deciding anything, because I'm not a practising Christian. Nobody gives a shit what you think about Christianity, it's practised the way its practised regardless of how you feel about it. Religions don't have to conform to your theories.

danno
20th May 07, 11:28 AM
this thread is the gift that JUST KEEPS ON BLOODY GIVING.

Quikfeet509
20th May 07, 11:39 AM
I'm not deciding anything, because I'm not a practising Christian. Nobody gives a shit what you think about Christianity, it's practised the way its practised regardless of how you feel about it. Religions don't have to conform to your theories.



That is very close. Almost got it...




I'm not deciding anything, because I'm not a practising Christian. Nobody gives a shit what you [Ergo] think about Islam, it's practised the way its practised regardless of how you feel about it. Religions don't have to conform to your theories.


Fixed. God that was simple.

ergo
20th May 07, 11:49 AM
Fixed. God that was simple.
It's not comparable. You are trying to redefine the rules of Christianity and the Bible, while I am simply telling what Muslims believe. Not the same thing.

Shawarma
20th May 07, 11:53 AM
Ergo is a great magician. He can read the lurid and dirty minds of liberals as well as the violent and evil thoughts of the Muslim plague.

Zendetta
20th May 07, 11:58 AM
I am simply telling what Muslims believe. Not the same thing.

Just to make it a little clearer: you are telling what you have been told about what Muslims believe. Even more to the point, you are telling what you believe muslims believe.

Its worth reminding everyone that you don't know any muslims, and Shawarma has adequately demonstrated that you are largely unacquainted with Islamic scripture.

ergo
20th May 07, 12:04 PM
Just to make it a little clearer: you are telling what you have been told about what Muslims believe. Even more to the point, you are telling what you believe muslims believe.
Incorrect.


Its worth reminding everyone that you don't know any muslims, and Shawarma has adequately demonstrated that you are largely unacquainted with Islamic scripture.
And I have adequately demonstrated that whether or not I know any Muslims is of no consequence, and that my knowledge of Islamic scripture is not very important. If you are going to keep repeating the fallacy that I must personally know Muslims, you are going to have to explain why it is necessary for me to personally know Muslims.

frumpleswift
20th May 07, 01:47 PM
THe logic is clear. Why you arn't getting it is becoming more clear.

THe West became the most advanced civilization not because of biblical christianity, but despite it. The escape from the dogma of the church started with the Renaisance and peaked with the Enlightenment, leading up to the secular and scientific culture we have today.

PS - the Renaissance would not have happened if the goldurned muslems hadn't had a MORE ADVANCED culture than mideival christendom. Thier advanced culture had retained and built on the 'lost' knowledge of the classical world - and christian europe got pulled out of the dark ages.

Zen, it is really not worth it. You are rehashing an argument that already took place here (http://www.sociocide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46364&page=27), over many pages of the same inanities

He didn't get it then, he sure as hell won't get it now.

ergo
20th May 07, 01:51 PM
Zen, it is really not worth it. You are rehashing an argument that already took place here (http://www.sociocide.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46364&page=27), over many pages of the same inanities

He didn't get it then, he sure as hell won't get it now.
What, precisely, is it that I don't get?

Oh, and I noticed something about Zendetta's post: his use of the term dark ages. The term does not refer to an age of darkness and despair as people commonly think. You may check Wikipedia for further details.

frumpleswift
20th May 07, 02:05 PM
Again, on the topic of Falwell:

How could he tell that this was gay:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41418000/jpg/_41418476_tinky_203.jpg

But not this?

http://www.tcn.co.za/img/ted_haggart.jpg

Matsufubu
20th May 07, 03:22 PM
Ergo, you should be careful. I heard that Allah has, like, 15 little rep boxes and is totally considering neg-repping you into the red.

On another note, God asked Abraham to kill Isaac to test his faith, not because he actually wanted him to do it.

Quikfeet509
20th May 07, 04:42 PM
Again, on the topic of Falwell:

How could he tell that this was gay:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41418000/jpg/_41418476_tinky_203.jpg

But not this?

http://www.tcn.co.za/img/ted_haggart.jpg


It is so funny that Falwell was such a wackjob that he could tell that a Teletubbie was gay when they have no gender.

On a side note, a bunch of wackjob nurse "researchers" published a study that said shows like the Teletubbies enforce male dominance...which, once again, is quite amazing considering THEY HAVE NO GENDER.

ergo
20th May 07, 11:08 PM
It is so funny that Falwell was such a wackjob that he could tell that a Teletubbie was gay when they have no gender.

On a side note, a bunch of wackjob nurse "researchers" published a study that said shows like the Teletubbies enforce male dominance...which, once again, is quite amazing considering THEY HAVE NO GENDER.
To feminists, there is not a thing in the universe that doesn't enforce male dominance.

AAAhmed46
21st May 07, 01:30 AM
What kind of feminism? There are three kinds remember?

My sociology teacher was a feminist(a male feminist, yes it exists) and made it a large part of the course.

Matsufubu
21st May 07, 06:16 AM
They're all the same. Dirty, towel-headed feminists rampaging across Europe.

emboesso
21st May 07, 06:58 AM
It is so funny that Falwell was such a wackjob that he could tell that a Teletubbie was gay when they have no gender.

On a side note, a bunch of wackjob nurse "researchers" published a study that said shows like the Teletubbies enforce male dominance...which, once again, is quite amazing considering THEY HAVE NO GENDER.

To be accurate, the Teletubby thing was an editorial written in a newspaper that Falwell published, but that Falwell didn't write, and apparently didn't know about before publication. Its like pulling an editorial out of the NY Post and saying "Look what Rupert Murdoch said!"

But, what the fuck? Have at 'im!

ergo
21st May 07, 07:00 AM
I replied to this earlier but the message was mysteriously sent to the first page of the thread.


What kind of feminism? There are three kinds remember?
There's basically only one type of feminism as far as I'm concerned: a fascist ideology that seeks to grab more power for its members, at the expense of everyone else, including non-feminist women. When you listen to feminists, all they really want is to reshape society and the world at large to conform to their feminist ideals and principles. In many cases feminism is an outright hate movement againts men.

Shawarma
21st May 07, 08:34 AM
Best poster evar!

Matsufubu
21st May 07, 09:20 AM
You're not wrong there. Ergo's a friggin' goldmine!

ergo
21st May 07, 09:24 AM
Once again you lack any real arguments, so you settle for snarky remarks, while still somehow basking in your perceived intellectual superiority.

Shawarma
21st May 07, 09:58 AM
Not intellectual. Evolutionary.

ergo
21st May 07, 10:00 AM
I don't think there's anything evolutionary about your comments getting progressively dumber and more nonsensical.

Matsufubu
21st May 07, 11:28 AM
There's no point arguing the point any further with you, ergo. You've got your anti-Muslim mindset, and nothing is going to change that. Hence the thread degenerating into snarky remarks.

Dagon Akujin
21st May 07, 12:16 PM
I could actually go and find several passages from the Quran that are less than liberal and progressive, but they would be dismissed as "out of context," even though they perfectly fit Muslim behavior, whereas all the liberal and progressive stuff is nowhere to be seen. So, why bother.


I could cite non-liberal and non-progressive passages from the Quran

This could be fun. Do it.


The Quran permits slavery, and the rape of slaver girls. Since slavery and rape hardly constitutes equal rights, is it not a contradiction?

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Best marriage proposal EVAR!

Dagon "Why, hello there Ms. Biel" Akujin

Shawarma
21st May 07, 12:20 PM
What for? I could cite those passages as well, you don't need a moron to do that for you.

Zendetta
21st May 07, 01:45 PM
There's basically only one type of _________ as far as I'm concerned: a fascist ideology that seeks to grab more power for its members, at the expense of everyone like me. When you listen to _______-ists, all they really want is to reshape society and the world at large to conform to their _______-ist ideals and principles. In many cases _______-ism is an outright hate movement againts everything decent and holy.

Ergo, to save you time in future arguements, I've done some very slight editing of your arguements. So, now all you have to do is just cut, paste, and fill in the blanks for future diatribes.

Cheers.

DJR
21st May 07, 02:38 PM
I don't see eye to eye with Christopher Hitchens on a lot of things, but his take on Falwell is one of the best things ever shown on CNN. A must see:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YkAPaEMwyKU

DerAuslander108
21st May 07, 03:36 PM
I've never met a gay person* or someone from China

Where the fuck do you live?

Neildo
21st May 07, 04:18 PM
I'm guessing Antarctica. Or maybe Vatican city.

frumpleswift
21st May 07, 05:43 PM
Ergo, to save you time in future arguements, I've done some very slight editing of your arguements. So, now all you have to do is just cut, paste, and fill in the blanks for future diatribes.

Cheers.

Yay...Madlibs...let me see:



There's basically only one type of _PENIS_ as far as I'm concerned: a fascist ideology that seeks to grab more power for its members, at the expense of everyone like me. When you listen to _PENIS_-ists, all they really want is to reshape society and the world at large to conform to their _PENIS_-ist ideals and principles. In many cases _PENIS_-ism is an outright hate movement againts everything decent and holy.

Edit: Why does Ergo still have positive rep?

Zendetta
21st May 07, 06:20 PM
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Best marriage proposal EVAR!

I hate to break it to you, Dagon, but this only works if the girl is a virgin.

Sun Wukong
21st May 07, 07:32 PM
I don't see eye to eye with Christopher Hitchens on a lot of things, but his take on Falwell is one of the best things ever shown on CNN. A must see:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YkAPaEMwyKU

As a matter of fact, I do see eye to ey with him on a great many things. What I really like is that we're our names are only two letters apart. That, and he has an amazing ability to make self righteous cunts look like... well, even bigger self righteous cunts. I don't know what his personal politics are, but his religous viewpoints and mine are damn near one and the same.

DJR
21st May 07, 08:43 PM
As a matter of fact, I do see eye to ey with him on a great many things. What I really like is that we're our names are only two letters apart. That, and he has an amazing ability to make self righteous cunts look like... well, even bigger self righteous cunts. I don't know what his personal politics are, but his religous viewpoints and mine are damn near one and the same.

I should have been more clear on that - I've actually agreed with him on a lot of things in the past, but not his support for the Iraq war and the Bush administration over the last few years. Prior to that, I was in agreement with him about 99% of the time.

Did anyone catch him on Penn and Teller's "Bullshit" program where he went after Mother Theresa? It was one of the all-time great moments in contrarianism.

AAAhmed46
21st May 07, 08:51 PM
I replied to this earlier but the message was mysteriously sent to the first page of the thread.


There's basically only one type of feminism as far as I'm concerned: a fascist ideology that seeks to grab more power for its members, at the expense of everyone else, including non-feminist women. When you listen to feminists, all they really want is to reshape society and the world at large to conform to their feminist ideals and principles. In many cases feminism is an outright hate movement againts men.

ACtually, thats a very rare brand of feminism.

Second wave feminism is annoying yes.

But now is third wave feminism, which is not nearly as annoying and is most common in the 2000+.

Basically, all about equal oppertunity and not Bra burning.

AAAhmed46
21st May 07, 08:56 PM
The Quran permits slavery, and the rape of slaver girls. Since slavery and rape hardly constitutes equal rights, is it not a contradiction?

Actually, you cannot have sex with a slave unless it's consensual, or the slave girl herself says : "I want to be a pleasure slave''(you can't make her one, she has to make the choice)

Or else legal action will be taken.

The same goes for beatings and whippings.

So how do you get the slave to work?

Well if he doesn't work, he doesn't get paid. If he doesn't get paid he doesn't eat or can buy his own freedom.

What makes a slave different from a servant? Slaves are 'bound' to the owner.

THough it is considered a good deed to free a slave.


Anyway, you got your answer with the biblical quote.

WarPhalange
21st May 07, 11:06 PM
There's basically only one type of feminism as far as I'm concerned: a fascist ideology that seeks to grab more power for its members, at the expense of everyone else, including non-feminist women. When you listen to feminists, all they really want is to reshape society and the world at large to conform to their feminist ideals and principles. In many cases feminism is an outright hate movement againts men.

Then you are a dumbass. I know some feminists. Their "agenda" is to get men to stop bitching and do their own work. I'm all for that. I can't wrap my head around the idea of getting married for the sole purpose of someone cooking and cleaning for me.

Furthermore, job opportunities are still better for men than women. And that's a god damned shame, because I am going into physics and all technical fields are fucking sausage fests. =/

frumpleswift
21st May 07, 11:10 PM
TFurthermore, job opportunities are still better for men than women. And that's a god damned shame, because I am going into physics and all technical fields are fucking sausage fests. =/

My physics program had ZERO girls in it. It started off with one and she dropped.

The history department had a 2:1 ratio of girls to guys.

It is because I can do math that I chose to go into history.

AAAhmed46
21st May 07, 11:10 PM
Then you are a dumbass. I know some feminists. Their "agenda" is to get men to stop bitching and do their own work. I'm all for that. I can't wrap my head around the idea of getting married for the sole purpose of someone cooking and cleaning for me.

Furthermore, job opportunities are still better for men than women. And that's a god damned shame, because I am going into physics and all technical fields are fucking sausage fests. =/

Yeah, on average thats probably the most extreme you'll probably find.

Sound like 'second generation' feminists.

Seems today the biggest issue is jobs and wages.


What are feminists ideals anyway? Equality? Is that such a bad ideal?

Zendetta
21st May 07, 11:14 PM
What are feminists ideals anyway?

Multiple orgasms and you put the toilet lid down.

frumpleswift
21st May 07, 11:16 PM
Multiple orgasms

That is what the tongue is for.

Zendetta
21st May 07, 11:23 PM
I'll bet when the the Boss is home you use it to drop the lid too.

ergo
21st May 07, 11:37 PM
This could be fun. Do it.
Except any and all passages in the Quran that contradict the "Islam is a Religion of Peace" dogma are always, without failure, dismissed as out of context or rationalized in some other way.


Deuteronomy 22:28-29 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Can't say I've ever heard of Christians practising anything like this, and I don't even see what this has to do with the Quran. Seems like every time there's even a slight danger of anyone upsetting the aforementioned dogma, somebody rushes to find something violent in the Bible, as if that somehow helps.


Ergo, to save you time in future arguements, I've done some very slight editing of your arguements. So, now all you have to do is just cut, paste, and fill in the blanks for future diatribes.

Cheers.
Feminism != Islam. Sorry.


Where the fuck do you live?
I already answered this question ages ago: my country is not very multicultural, at least when compared to many other countries, and my city is even less so. I am not responsible for the amount of Chinese people who live here, nor am I a responsible for the amount of Chinese people I met (or rather, didn't meet) every time I travelled to a foreign country. At any rate, the point (which you may have missed) was that it doesn't matter if I've met a Chinese person or not.


Why does Ergo still have positive rep?
Better question: why do you neg rep people just because you disagree with them?


ACtually, thats a very rare brand of feminism.
Really? I see it all the time.


Then you are a dumbass. I know some feminists.
This argument was proven to be erroneous a long time ago.


Their "agenda" is to get men to stop bitching and do their own work. I'm all for that. I can't wrap my head around the idea of getting married for the sole purpose of someone cooking and cleaning for me.
The arrangement used to be that the man is the breadwinner while the woman takes care of the house. Nowadays women are completely free to do their own breadwinning, so what exactly are they complaining about? They're free to choose. If they don't want to take care of somebody's household, they don't have to.


Furthermore, job opportunities are still better for men than women. And that's a god damned shame, because I am going into physics and all technical fields are fucking sausage fests. =/
Are job opportunities better or are women just less interested in technical fields?

Matsufubu
22nd May 07, 02:28 AM
I think you live on top of a mountain reading right-wing newspapers.

This thread is awesome.

REP WAR!

ergo
22nd May 07, 02:41 AM
I think you live on top of a mountain reading right-wing newspapers.
No, I'm afraid that's not the case. Try again.

Sun Wukong
22nd May 07, 03:27 AM
I should have been more clear on that - I've actually agreed with him on a lot of things in the past, but not his support for the Iraq war and the Bush administration over the last few years...

Wha...? NOOooOOoOOoOOOoooooo!!!!

Matsufubu
22nd May 07, 04:53 AM
No, I'm afraid that's not the case. Try again.

You live on top of a mountain browsing right-wing websites, then.

ergo
22nd May 07, 05:04 AM
You live on top of a mountain browsing right-wing websites, then.
Yes, it's all part of the Global Right Wing Conspiracy. Reuters, BBC, CNN, Fox, AP... they're all part of it. Even local newspapers and small TV stations are in on it.

It must be true.

bob
22nd May 07, 05:12 AM
Monotheistic Religion, Geopolitics and Star Wars

It has been examined at length how the treatment of various characters in SW films expose subliminal racist ideology. For instance, Chewbacca the Wookie and Darth Vader represent the two stereotypical 'black men' to American whites. The Wookie is the idealised, emasculated negro of pre-civil rights culture. He is large and aggressive but fiercely loyal to his white companion, who is superior to him in every way except strength. He is also eternally grateful to Han Solo for releasing him from slavery, an attitude that whites seem to have difficulty believing is not more prevalent amongst African Americans. Vader is his antithesis - the dark, dangerous, criminal black who preys on middle class whites but is himself subservient to greater criminal elements.

Yoda of course is the inscrutable, wise oriental. Physically and grammatically challenged but powerful because he is possessed of knowledge unavailable to the white masses. And C3PO, the 'acceptable' homosexual. Well groomed, well spoken and ultimately harmless (note again the use of emasculation in his costume, as with Chewbacca). The Emperor and Moff Tarkin are 'the old country' to Americans. Smooth, powerful and intelligent but full of evident signs of physical and moral decay, they represent the American perception of Europe and specifically Britain.

Where then does this leave Christianity and religion? The Force is the dominant paradigm in SW and we are presented initially with a crisis of faith in the original film. The idealist (Luke) the cynic (Han) and the pragmatist (Leia) all have to wrestle with the struggle to believe in something greater than themselves. Only through surrendering to this belief are they able to triumph.

But while faith is the initial crux, eventually it is taken for granted and the movies as a whole can be seen as a metacultural examination of the battle between two perspectives on the same faith - the dark and light side. The light side, or Christianity, comes first. Those who stray from this path still hold the same beliefs, but their perceived moral framework has changed. The newer religion, the dark side, or Islam, is viewed as a perversion of the initial faith.

Once this becomes clear, the hypocrisy is revealed in almost every scene. The dark side is claimed to be violent and oppressive, yet the agents of the light side are responsible for just as much death and destruction and are seen to solve most of their problems by force, when their power should allow them to do otherwise.

But perhaps the greatest hypocrisy can be seen in the reversal of geopolitical fortunes between the light and dark side. The (chronologically) first trilogy is a mirror of the present day situation where the Christian light side holds the dominant position in world affairs and the agents of the dark side are forced to plot and scheme and use what meagre physical resources they have to overthrow them? 'Why should they even try?' you might well ask. But it is made plain that anyone following the dark, Islamic religion would be exterminated should they show themselves.

The chronologically second trilogy sees a fantasist's view of what would happen if Islam were the dominant force in world affairs. Where the resistance of the dark side was seen as insidious and nefarious, the terrorism of the rebels is portrayed as heroic and necessary, despite the likely deaths of thousands of civilians in rebel attacks. The rebels are displayed as racially mixed, a self delusion prevalant among American liberals, but care is taken to ensure the whites always have the dominant hand.

The importance of SW in popular culture has been debated at length but the only reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from an educated dissection of the films is that they represent a call to arms to American whites in the ongoing war against their own non-white countrymen and the threat of Islamic infiltration of their society.

Next week: Star Wars and Womyn.

ergo
22nd May 07, 06:22 AM
Well... that's almost the dumbest thing I've read this month.

bob
22nd May 07, 07:04 AM
quid pro quo

Matsufubu
22nd May 07, 07:51 AM
Have we had a 'War Between the Universes of Star Trek and Star Wars' thread yet?

ergo
22nd May 07, 07:52 AM
quid pro quo
Yet another idiotic post.

Neildo
22nd May 07, 11:10 AM
ts;dr

Matsufubu
22nd May 07, 11:20 AM
I am wrong and you are all right.

Thank you. Finally, this thread can die.

Stick
22nd May 07, 11:24 AM
That essay was fucking retarded.

Yiktin Voxbane
22nd May 07, 12:19 PM
ts;dr

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner .

ergo
22nd May 07, 12:39 PM
Thank you. Finally, this thread can die.
Agreed. The thread can surely die when the opposition has to resort to fabricating quotes.

Steve
22nd May 07, 04:00 PM
This thread isn't dead yet:

Bomb Plot Thwarted at Falwell's Funeral
Student Arrested With Homemade Bombs, Three Other Suspects Sought

Even in death, the Rev. Jerry Falwell rouses the most volatile of emotions.

Authorities arrested a Liberty University student for having several gasoline-based bombs in his car.

The student, 19-year-old Mark Ewell of Amissville, Va., reportedly told authorities that he was making the bombs to stop protesters from disrupting the funeral service.

Three other suspects are being sought, one of whom is a soldier from Fort Benning, Ga., and another is a high school student. No information was available on the third person.

Authorities were alerted to the potential bomb plot by a concerned relative of Ewell.

-------------------------------------

Link. (http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3201543)

Sorry but LOL at stopping protesters from disrupting the funeral by blowing them up! A sure fire way to not disrupt the service, that's for sure.

Stick
22nd May 07, 04:09 PM
Well isn't that twisted.

On the other hand..... West Burogh Baptist Church and its shriveled old leader Fred Phelps have always promised to protest Falwell's funeral.

Zendetta
22nd May 07, 05:36 PM
Hey everybody, Ergo was right: one in four US muslems is really a crazy insane jihadists with a bomb in his turban!!!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18797530/

Stick
22nd May 07, 08:13 PM
I fucking told you.

Fred Phelps will not be stopped!

s8Lh-iTSNL4

frumpleswift
22nd May 07, 10:00 PM
Hey everybody, Ergo was right: one in four US muslems is really a crazy insane jihadists with a bomb in his turban!!!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18797530/

so in Ergo math 25% equals ALL?

However, for the vast majority of Muslims, I find this quote relevant:


The survey by the Pew Research Center, one of the most exhaustive ever of the country’s Muslims, revealed a community that in many ways blends comfortably into society. Its largely mainstream members express nearly as much happiness with their lives and communities as the general public does, show a broad willingness to adopt American customs, and have income and education levels similar to others in the U.S.

Dagon Akujin
23rd May 07, 12:25 AM
Sweet. My kids are watching Star Wars in class right now. Many of them find it "boring", because they are stupid, stupid kids.

Yes, we are looking at myth, The Hero With 1000 Faces, etc., etc.

Steve
23rd May 07, 12:41 AM
I fucking told you.

Fred Phelps will not be stopped!

s8Lh-iTSNL4

Funny, he almost makes Hell sound like a party that he's pissed about not being invited to.

ergo
23rd May 07, 01:12 AM
Hey everybody, Ergo was right: one in four US muslems is really a crazy insane jihadists with a bomb in his turban!!!!
I saw that story at Jihad Watch. Therefore, the story cannot be accurate. Anything that's touched by a horrible right-wing conspiracy site becomes invalid. You just made a huge mistake.

Anyway, I've never said anything about 1 in 4 Muslim in America. My primary concern is European Muslims.

Shawarma
23rd May 07, 07:17 AM
Biking home from work today, I saw a dyke-looking woman talking to two Arabs. OHMIGOD, THE FEMINAZI LESBIAN HOMOGAYS ARE IN LEAGUE WITH THE MUSLIM PLAGUE! BEWARE THE ISLAMOFAGGOTS!

ergo
23rd May 07, 08:33 AM
Biking home from work today, I saw a dyke-looking woman talking to two Arabs. OHMIGOD, THE FEMINAZI LESBIAN HOMOGAYS ARE IN LEAGUE WITH THE MUSLIM PLAGUE! BEWARE THE ISLAMOFAGGOTS!
I've never claimed feminists are somehow in league with Muslims.

Kiko
23rd May 07, 09:11 AM
Biking home from work today, I saw a dyke-looking woman talking to two Arabs. OHMIGOD, THE FEMINAZI LESBIAN HOMOGAYS ARE IN LEAGUE WITH THE MUSLIM PLAGUE! BEWARE THE ISLAMOFAGGOTS!

Shredded wheat through one's nose is NOT fun. But thanks for the LOLZ!

Zendetta
23rd May 07, 09:21 AM
Funny, he almost makes Hell sound like a party that he's pissed about not being invited to.

Oh, I'm sure they'll let him in.

Sun Wukong
24th May 07, 03:30 AM
Phelps is so wacky.

frumpleswift
24th May 07, 06:03 PM
Catholic Heaven versus Protestant HEaven:

_RMzA82H-Qo