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ironlurker
17th April 07, 12:37 PM
No matter what your stance on guns, this oozes total condescension.
Less than 24 hours later, still very little information, and they already have everything figured out.


Blaming Charlton Heston

With a view to Monday's deadly shooting rampage at Virginia Tech, European newspapers are blaming the lack of gun control measures in the United States and implying that Charlton Heston is indirectly responsible for the scope of the killings.
Across the continent on Tuesday, European media rubber-neck at Monday's massacre in the United States. Most seem to agree about one thing: The shooting at Virginia Tech is the result of America's woeful lack of serious gun control laws. In the strongest editorialized image of the day, German cable news broadcaster NTV flashed an image of the former head of the National Rifle Association, the US gun lobby: In other words, blame rifle-wielding Charlton Heston for the 33 dead.

Papers reserve their sharpest criticism for the 2004 expiration of a 10-year ban on semi-automatic weapons under the then Republican-controlled Congress. Others comment on the pro-gun lobbying activities of Heston's NRA. Some papers also draw analogies between school shootings and Muslim fundamentalist suicide bombers.


British daily The Independent writes:
"The passionate feelings of the gun lobby may be traced to the Second Amendment of the US Constitution, enshrining 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms'. Although the provision stems from the times when 'well regulated militias' were deemed necessary to protect against a British attempt to regain the lost colonies, it is the default position of any argument against greater gun control here."
"As such, it has trumped every other consideration, not least the fact that on any given day about 80 people are killed by firearms, the vast majority by murder or suicide. Gun violence may cost $2.3 billion each year in medical expenses, but it is a price, gun supporters believe, that is worth paying to protect a fundamental freedom ..."
"There is no sign of attitudes hardening. Despite the opposition of every police force in the land, Congress in 2004 allowed to lapse a 10-year federal ban on semi-automatic assault weapons, a particular favorite of violent criminals. The reaction was not exactly deafening. Even amid yesterday's shock, the initial calls were for stricter security measures on campuses -- not serious moves to reduce gun ownership."


The Times of London writes:
"The trauma of the death of the students at Virginia Tech that will spread across the university and the whole country will be magnified by the feelings of so many people who feel that they should have been able to prevent it."
"Doubtless there will be a call to review the availability of firearms. The National Rifle Association's (NRA) response is predictable too. They will point out that events such as this are not carried out by a rifle-wielding member of a weekend militia. There is no doubt that access to rapid-action shotguns makes these events even more destructive [WHAT THE FUCK HE USED HANDGUNS] but as we have seen with suicide bombers, who are closer to spree killers than is often realized, if a person really wants to take their own life and kill others in doing so it is exceptionally difficult to prevent it."


French daily Le Monde writes:
"The shooting at Virginia Tech ... is a dramatic episode of school violence that fits into a long series of such episodes, a series topped by the drama at Columbine, the school attacked by two adolescents in 1999 ..."
"If Columbine left such a strong impression, that was because it was one of the first dramas of school violence that received broad coverage in the media. Americans were informed of what was happening in real time, via TV and the radio. The students called their families or CNN even as the killers were still roaming the corridors of the schools. ..."
"This new tragedy presents a new opportunity for American public opinion to interrogate itself about a society which, as one of the students who survived Columbine said at the time, is very much responsible for what has happened."

French conservative daily Le Figaro writes:
"It was all too easy easy for the elected representatives of the United States, from the White House to the Congress, to express their sadness yesterday; America's problem with fire-arms represents a political issue for which they share responsibility. Here is a country that represents the vanguard of development and democracy while it is legal to carry a gun in 45 of 50 states, as long as the gun is not loaded. ... At the end of 2004, the Republican-controlled Congress allowed a law to expire that prohibited the sale of semi-automatic and military weapons. Thereafter, legal changes were made to protect the producers and vendors of fire-arms from being held responsible for the actions of gun owners."
"Contrary to what one would imagine, this backward stance is not something left over from the Wild West. It goes back to the creation of the United States and the War of Independence against the English. ... While most states have issued laws designed to control the sale of arms, the NRA ensures they remain inefficient or are not applied. Strongly linked to the conservative fringe of the Republican Party, the NRA spent $400,000 a day to prevent the election of the Democratic candidate John Kerry during the 2004 presidential elections ..."
"Yesterday's massacre will surely revive the debate in the United States, but within the federal system, the question is ultimately settled by each individual state. Going back on the lapsing of the law issued by Washington could provide an opportunity for the Supreme Court to take a stance on the issue for the first time since 1939."


Italian daily Il Corriere della Sera writes:
"Shocked psychologists and sociologists ask themselves how gun violence is to be explained.Some speak of the repressed violence of a country that goes back to generations of pioneers habituated to achieve justice on their own and which is forced to face the powerful tensions within a multiracial society. Others criticize the spread of violent video games (which are, however, a phenomenon that has only emerged in recent years). In any case, gun violence is becoming a common phenomenon in the United States, one that is no longer surprising. In major cities such as New York, the extension of surveillance measures, a tough approach to crime and measures to rebuild the urban fabric have led to a drop in crime and especially in the number of homicides. But in suburban areas and smaller cities, episodes of 'ordinary violence' are on the rise. In the poorest neighborhoods, people are getting used to the use of fire-arms -- a phenomenon that is linked to the growing tendency among many young people to resort to violence to settle even minor disputes and to the ease with which weapons can be acquired."


Italian daily Il Messaggero writes:
"The bloodbath on the university campus is the work of a suicide killer -- an American suicide killer who, differently from Muslim killers, did not act out of religious motives but was driven instead by the unrest affecting broad layers of US society. America is a nation that has for some years been in danger of becoming more and more unloved in the world, especially in the poorest countries. During the period following World War II, America was seen as the guardian of democracy and was equated with the defense of liberty; today, America is a superpower that begins wars and lives with the constant necessity of having to defend itself against the enemy -- whether this enemy be called Islam or whether it bears the face of the neighbor who has done you wrong."


Spanish daily El Pais writes:
"The president of Virginia Tech called it a tragedy of monumental proportions. But similar comments could already be heard following previous tragedies of this kind. The shooting spree at the Columbine high school in Colorado, for instance, revived the debate on the necessity of better controlling access to weapons. This led to some laws being toughened and security at schools being improved. But the measures are decided by the individual states and are constantly side-stepped by means of an exaggerated interpretation of the US constitution."


German daily Bild writes:
"Now we will probably begin discussing the overly lax gun laws in the United States. There, buying a machine gun is often easier than getting a driver's license. And a new ban on violent games and killer videos will also be put back on the agenda. But in the end, nothing is likely to happen. And the next killer already lives somewhere among us. But we have little reason to point an accusing finger at the Americans. Despite strict gun legislation, we (in Germany) have experienced the school shootings in Erfurt and Emsdetten. We have to consider the problems in our society. And we have to take care of our fellow humans."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,477686,00.html

Honestly, I think this is exploitation, especially jumping so soon after the fact.
I would think the same with an American who was already using this as an immigration issue, for example.
Is it time to disband NATO yet? Views like these are the outcome of sixty years of baby-sitting.

ironlurker
17th April 07, 12:49 PM
04/17/07
Virginia Tech Shooting: Gun Laws

Monday's shooting rampage in the U-S is making headlines overseas, and foreign reaction has been more disgust that surprise.
In Europe, which has some of the toughest gun control laws in the world, the Virginia Tech incident has lit up talk-show lines with complaints about America's fascination with guns and weak controls.
By coincidence, British Home Office Minister Tony McNulty earned a masters in political science at Virginia Tech. He says the only good that can come from the shootings is a "serious and reflective debate on gun issues."
Handguns are completely illegal in Britain, which recorded only 46 homicides involving firearms all of last year. By contrast there were 579 gun homicides last year in New York City alone.
The shooting drew intense coverage in China, because the shooter was Asian and because Virginia Tech has a relatively large Chinese student body. An expert on American studies says the shooting reflects the problem of gun control in America.

http://www.ktre.com/Global/story.asp?S=6380708&nav=2FH5


World Asks: Why So Many Guns?

Apr. 17 - Tony Blair and the queen of England were both "shocked." International leaders also expressed their condolences, but the underlying question being asked: "Why does America stand by its gun laws?"
Expressions of sympathy rang out from Buckingham Palace to Beijing as the world absorbed the news of yet another deadly shooting rampage in the United States and questions grew over how such violence could break out yet again and whether lax U.S. gun laws are a case of freedom gone too far. Criticism echoed across Europe where gun laws are some of the toughest in the world.
"Only the names change And the numbers," read a headline in the Times of London.
Two professors from India and Israel were among the dead at the Virginia Tech shooting, the deadliest in U.S. history.
Liviu Librescu, 75, an engineering science and mathematics lecturer, tried to stop the gunman from entering his classroom by blocking the door before he was fatally shot, his son said Tuesday from Tel Aviv, Israel.
"My father blocked the doorway with his body and asked the students to flee," Joe Librescu said in a telephone interview of his father, who immigrated to Israel from Romania, and was on sabbatical in Virginia.
Indian-born G.V. Loganathan, 51, a lecturer at the Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, was also among the dead, his brother G.V. Palanivel told Indian media.
"We all feel like we have had an electric shock, we do not know what to do," Palanivel said of his brother.
Few were surprised by the shooting criticizing the availability of guns in the United States, lax gun controls and the number of Americans who cling to the constitutional right that allows them to bear arms.
"I think if this does prompt a serious and reflective debate on gun issues and gun law in the states then some good may come from this woeful tragedy," said British Home Office Minister Tony McNulty, who graduated from Virginia Tech in 1982 with a degree in political science. [WOW, smarmy at all?]
Gun crime is rare in Britain, and handguns are completely illegal. The ban is so strictly enforced that Britain's Olympic pistol shooting team is barred from practicing in its own country.
Britain's 46 homicides involving firearms was the lowest total since the late 1980s. New York City, with 8 million people compared to 53 million in England and Wales, recorded at least 579 homicides last year.
Prime Minister Tony Blair offered his condolences to the victims' families but stopped short of criticizing U.S. gun laws.
"I would like to express on behalf of Britain and the British people our profound sadness at what has happened and to send the American people and most especially, of course, the families of the victims, our sympathy and our prayers," Blair said.
In Sweden, civilians can only get firearm permits if they have a hunting license or are members of a shooting club approved by authorities and have no history of violent crime.
"What exactly triggered the massacre in Virginia is unclear but the fundamental reason is often the perpetrator's psychological problems in combination with access to weapons," Swedish daily Goteborgs-Posten commented.
In Germany, where gun-control laws are strict, a teenager in 2002 shot and killed 12 teachers, a secretary, two students and a police officer at Erfurt's Gutenberg high school. The shooter was gun club member licensed to own weapons. The attack led Germany to raise the age for owning recreational firearms from 18 to 21.
"The instant I saw the pictures and heard the commentary it immediately brought back our own experience," Gutenberg high school director Christiane Alt said of the Virginia Tech killings.
Monday's shootings drew intense media coverage in China, in part because the school has a relatively large Chinese student body and because U.S. reports said the gunman may have been Asian.
Private citizens are forbidden from owning guns in China.
"People should think why an American-educated student would take revenge against America?" said a comment posted on the popular Internet portal Sohu.com.
Only 7 percent of the more than 26,000 students at Virginia Tech are foreign, according to the school web site. But Chinese undergraduate and graduate students comprise nearly a third of that.
In Italy, there are three types of licenses for gun ownership: for personal safety, target practice and skeet shooting, and hunting. Authorization is granted by the police. To obtain a gun for personal safety, the owner must be an adult and have a "valid" reason.
Several Italian graduate students at Virginia Tech recounted how they barricaded themselves inside a geology department building not far from the scene of the shooting.
"If the guns are harder to get a hold of, fewer people will do it," said Michael Dent, a 65-year-old construction worker in London. "You can't walk up to a supermarket or shop and buy a gun like in the States."

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=nation_world&id=5217949

ironlurker
17th April 07, 12:54 PM
Massacre sparks foreign criticism of US gun culture
By Keith Weir LONDON (Reuters) - Foreign politicians and media commentators attacked America's "gun culture" on Tuesday after the country's worst shooting rampage left 33 people dead.
U.S. police identified the gunman who killed 32 people then himself at Virginia Tech university on Monday as Cho Seung-Hui, a 23-year-old South Korean studying at the university.

European newspapers saw a grim inevitability about the shootings, given the right to bear arms which is enshrined in America's constitution.
Australian Prime Minister John Howard, a staunch U.S. political ally, cited the tough gun laws in his country as a solution. Australia banned almost all types of semi-automatic weapons after a mass shooting in Tasmania in 1996.
"We showed a national resolve that the gun culture that is such a negative in the United States would never become a negative in our country," said Howard, extending sympathies to the families of the victims at Virginia Tech university.
Iran, at loggerheads with the United States over its nuclear programme, also expressed its sympathy.
"Iran condemns the killing of Virginia university students and expresses its condolences to the families of victims and the American nation," Foreign Ministry spokesman Mohammad Ali Hosseini said in a statement to Reuters.
In a telegram sent on his behalf to the Bishop of Richmond, Virginia, Pope Benedict called the shooting a "senseless tragedy" and said he was praying for the victims and their families.
"AS AMERICAN AS APPLE PIE"
Media commentators in Europe were quick to blame the permissive U.S. gun laws for the massacre.
In Italy, the Leftist Il Manifesto newspaper said the shooting was "as American as apple pie".
France's Le Monde newspaper said such episodes frequently disfigure the "American dream".
More than 30,000 people die from firearms in the United States every year and there are more guns in private hands than in any other country. By comparison, there were 163 gun deaths in the United Kingdom in 2003, according to the latest figures from the campaign group Gun Control Network.
But a powerful U.S. gun lobby and support for gun ownership have largely thwarted attempts to tighten controls.
"It would be vain to hope that even so destructive a crime as this will cool the American ardour for guns," Britain's Independent newspaper said in a commentary.
Some U.S. gun advocates in fact argued it was time to lift a ban on carrying arms in American schools.
"When will we learn that being defenseless is a bad defense?" said Larry Pratt, Executive Director of Gun Owners of America, in a statement.
"All the school shootings that have ended abruptly in the last ten years were stopped because a law-abiding citizen - a potential victim - had a gun," Pratt said.
However, campaigners in other countries where gun ownership is common expressed fears of a similar massacre.
Nandy Pacheco, head of the Philippines anti-gun lobby, Gunless Society, said he feared it could happen there.
"Not a day passes without a gun-related incident happening (in the Philippines). You hear it on radio, see it on TV and read it in newspapers," he said.
Gun ownership is commonplace in the Philippines and shootings over trivial incidents are routine. A few years ago several fatal karaoke bar shootouts were sparked by poor renditions of Frank Sinatra's "My Way".


http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2007/4/18/worldupdates/2007-04-17T212204Z_01_NOOTR_RTRJONC_0_-294575-1&sec=Worldupdates

Question!
17th April 07, 01:10 PM
This has nothing to do with Europe but since the other thread is reserved for condolences, I'll post updates to the story here.

First, identity of the gunman.


Cho Seung-Hui, a 23-year-old senior, arrived in the United States as boy from South Korea (http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=South+Korea) in 1992 and was raised in suburban Washington, D.C., officials said. He was living on campus in a different dorm from the one where Monday's bloodbath began.
.
.
.
One law enforcement official said Cho's backpack contained a receipt for a March purchase of a Glock 9 mm pistol. Cho held a green card, meaning he was a legal, permanent resident, federal officials said. That meant he was eligible to buy a handgun unless he had been convicted of a felony.
Investigators stopped short of saying Cho carried out both attacks. But ballistics tests show one gun was used in both, Virginia State Police said.
And two law enforcement officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because the information had not been announced, said Cho's fingerprints were found on both guns. The serial numbers on the two weapons had been filed off, the officials said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070417/ap_on_re_us/virginia_tech_shooting

Next, according to the Citizens Commission on Human Rights [CCHR], a Scientology front group, psychiatry is to blame.

Here is an excerpt from their press release.




Another School Shooter, Another Psychiatric Drug?


28 Dead and 62 Wounded in Recent Drug-Induced School Shootings Today's shooting rampage at Virginia Tech is being called the deadliest school shooting incident in U.S. history, with initial reports citing 32 dead and 29 wounded in the bloodiest school massacre since Columbine. The Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR), a mental health watchdog that initially discovered the psychiatric drug connection in the Columbine shootings, says media and law enforcement must move quickly to investigate the Virginia shooter's psychiatric drug history -- a common factor amongst school shooters...
For more information, contact [FLAME] the Citizens Commission on Human Rights at 800-869-2247 or email [email protected]


http://www.hollywoodinterrupted.com/archives/sick_celebrity_cult_of_scientology_attempts_to_cap italize_on_virginia_tech_tragedy.phtml

JimmyTheHutt
17th April 07, 01:27 PM
I understand this was a tragedy, and everyone wants to blame something big, like video games or guns. However, the blame trail starts and ends with the shooter. It wasn’t the gun, it wasn’t how fast the cops reacted, it wasn’t the shooters girlfriend, it was one crazy guy who just didn’t care. For everyone saying that handguns were to blame, it is important to remember that he chained the doors to prevent interference. He could have easily just chained the doors and set off home brew explosives.

Trying to use this thing to advance any kind of agenda is sickening.

Veritas et Lux!
Jimmy The Hutt

Shawarma
17th April 07, 02:17 PM
So, why does this happen like every alternate week in American educational institutions?

Kein Haar
17th April 07, 02:29 PM
No more than "Europe" said the aforementioned.

Now is the time to take a pill. Really.

Stick
17th April 07, 02:54 PM
This should be in ground zero, seriously.

And while I'm at it, here's what Dr. PHil had to say


In the wake of yesterday’s horrific shootings at Virginia Tech, gadfly attorney Jack Thompson was not the only one who was quick to place blame on violent video games.

Noted T.V. shrink Dr. Phil McGraw appeared on CNN’s Larry King Live last night to discuss the rampage. During the course of the program, the following exchange took place:

LARRY KING: Why, though - OK, you want to kill someone, you’re crazed, you’re a little nuts, girlfriend drops you, why do you kill innocent people?… Dr. McGraw, are they treatable?

DR. PHIL: Well, Larry, every situation is different… The question really is can we spot them. And the problem is we are programming these people as a society. You cannot tell me - common sense tells you that if these kids are playing video games, where they’re on a mass killing spree in a video game, it’s glamorized on the big screen, it’s become part of the fiber of our society. You take that and mix it with a psychopath, a sociopath or someone suffering from mental illness and add in a dose of rage, the suggestibility is too high.

And we’re going to have to start dealing with that. We’re going to have to start addressing those issues and recognizing that the mass murders of tomorrow are the children of today that are being programmed with this massive violence overdose.

Full transcript here (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0704/16/lkl.01.html).

And now I'll say something.

While it maddens me that every group with an agenda is so quick to start placing blame on various societal factors- access to guns, video games, being in America-, I can't help but grudgingly agree with the European position when compared to the others; if you had to choose what was most responsible- from amongst the politicised issues- be it video games, music, movies, the pressures of immigration, or access to guns I have to say that this guy being able to go buy a gun for less than $600 would be at the top of the list.

PS: check the bit over at "8 Asians" (http://www.8asians.com/2007/04/16/virginia-tech-gunman-allegedly-asian-man); in the comments section these twits are seriously discussing how they think there will be a racial backlash against Asians in "rural" Virginia Tech, plus lots of bitching and moaning about how his ethnicity is being handled in the media- god damn.

Shawarma
17th April 07, 03:02 PM
Or you could mosey over to the various political message boards where the fagtrons are bawling about this being the result of having an open border policy and letting foreign scum run rampant on our great universities and how South Korean culture is somehow to blame for this despite the fact that the boy had lived in the US since early childhood. Some of them are even calling this an act of terrorism in order to play the LOOK BUSH IS RIGHT TERROR IS EVERYWHERE HELP card and wanting to demonize nonwhites as being potential shooters.

The racist backlash of this is real, at least on t3h intarweb. It won't spill over into the real world, though.

Stick
17th April 07, 03:05 PM
The interweb doesn't count and you know it; on the interweb you can find people with an erotic fixation on jet airliners.

Steve
17th April 07, 03:26 PM
My girlfriend is Korean (lived in the states since she was a few months old) and she even got some stupid person asking how she felt about the shooting based on her ethnicity.

Some people are so dense. Like Jimmy said, the blame is with the shooter. There is no one thing that can be changed to keep things like this from happening, sad to say it.

I also have to agree, at least a bit, with the European papers. Our gun laws are too lax, but I do believe that America was founded with the right to bear arms. Stricter policies should be implemented to make it MUCH more difficult to own a gun but they shouldn't be outlawed, IMO.

Shawarma
17th April 07, 03:26 PM
True. But since you cited people on the intarweb, I figured the racist twats in my example would also be quotable.

Stick
17th April 07, 03:30 PM
Argh, point, counter-point and so it goes!

I guess I just take the racist prattle for granted- seriously who has any doubt as to what's being said on stormfront right now- and over-estimated the class/intel of the "liberal elite".

Neildo
17th April 07, 03:31 PM
It won't spill over into the real world, though.

Being a six foot tall asian guy, i already get lots of weird looks.

I just came back from lunch, and got extra weird looks today. The three-quarter length dark trench- coat probably doesn't help.


...I have to say that this guy being able to go buy a gun for less than $600 would be at the top of the list.

Chis Rock said it best a long time ago:
juLQBeZXmPU

Shu2jack
17th April 07, 03:39 PM
While it maddens me that every group with an agenda is so quick to start placing blame on various societal factors- access to guns, video games, being in America-, I can't help but grudgingly agree with the European position when compared to the others; if you had to choose what was most responsible- from amongst the politicised issues- be it video games, music, movies, the pressures of immigration, or access to guns I have to say that this guy being able to go buy a gun for less than $600 would be at the top of the list.

Really, I think firearms being banned on a some 2,800 acre campus would be the top of my list.

I feel horrible for what happened to the victims. I feel even more horrible because the entire population on that campus had to rely on a police force covering the entire campus to protect them.

MaverickZ
17th April 07, 03:40 PM
Firearms are banned on the VT campus.

Shu2jack
17th April 07, 03:41 PM
That is the problem.

Stick
17th April 07, 03:46 PM
Banning them from a location is not the issue, having less of them in this country and making them far more difficult to get is. There are more guns in this country than people.

Now before you say "take away the guns from honest citizens than only the criminals will ahve them", look at Europe even where only the criminals have guns how many fucking people die every year there becauses of guns? England alone with less tha a hundered gun deaths in a country of 43million as opposed to 500+ death in the city of new york alone.

For me, the pro-gun lobby's arguements are just now starting to make a lot less sense, and what little sense it is making certainly isn't common.

Shu2jack
17th April 07, 03:53 PM
Now before you say "take away the guns from honest citizens than only the criminals will ahve them", look at Europe even where only the criminals have guns how many fucking people die every year there becauses of guns? England alone with less tha a hundered gun deaths in a country of 43million as opposed to 500+ death in the city of new york alone.

Consider the size of the United States in both population and territory. Now consider any one Western European country along those lines.

How many unarmed students got injured or died? How many would've died if the student body was armed? We will never know. All I know is that if I was in their situation I would've wanted a means to protect myself.

Even though there might be more guns than people in the U.S., there were more people than guns on that VA campus.

elipson
17th April 07, 03:54 PM
Really, I think firearms being banned on a some 2,800 acre campus would be the top of my list.
How the hell would that be enforced? Fences, dogs, and check points? Do you KNOW how much shit gets hidden in college campuses?


Another School Shooter, Another Psychiatric Drug?

28 Dead and 62 Wounded in Recent Drug-Induced School Shootings Today's shooting rampage at Virginia Tech is being called the deadliest school shooting incident in U.S. history, with initial reports citing 32 dead and 29 wounded in the bloodiest school massacre since Columbine. The Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR), a mental health watchdog that initially discovered the psychiatric drug connection in the Columbine shootings, says media and law enforcement must move quickly to investigate the Virginia shooter's psychiatric drug history -- a common factor amongst school shooters...
For more information, contact [FLAME] the Citizens Commission on Human Rights at 800-869-2247 or email [email protected]

Scientoligist or not, this is a legit point! People who do these things are NOT mentally normal. Making a better social safety net would better the odds of helping these people before they go bat-shit insane.

Doc Phil had a good point, in that its not one thing that creates these situations, its combinations of all these things. We need to address all the relevant points INSTEAD of latching on to a single issue and placing all the blame on that.

And Stick, did you get my PM?

Shu2jack
17th April 07, 03:58 PM
How the hell would that be enforced? Fences, dogs, and check points? Do you KNOW how much shit gets hidden in college campuses?

VA campus DID have a ban on firearms. It didn't work.

I am advocating ALLOWING students and professors to carry on campus. It doesn't need to be enforced. They just do it.

bob
17th April 07, 04:07 PM
Many of those newspaper comments were crass and unnecessary at this point. Now is not the time for such editorialising.

For anyone interested in a historical comparison, the Port Arthur massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_Massacre)in Australia in 1996, where 35 people were killed by a mildly retarded man with a semi automatic rifle caused a lot of similar arguments (conspiracy theories, gun control, psychiatric state and culpability). Ultimately it resulted in a widely popular and fairly successful national ban on semi-automatic weapons.

Neildo
17th April 07, 04:10 PM
VA campus DID have a ban on firearms. It didn't work.

I am advocating ALLOWING students and professors to carry on campus. It doesn't need to be enforced. They just do it.

Isn't VA an open-carry state anyways?

ICY
17th April 07, 04:18 PM
If America had ALWAYS had harsh gun laws, the gun culture would've never developed, so essentially, the Europeans are right.

elipson
17th April 07, 04:28 PM
I am advocating ALLOWING students and professors to carry on campus. It doesn't need to be enforced. They just do it.
Are you fucking serious?

This wouldn't have stopped this, the only thing it could have achieved is to start a gun battle, which would STILL be horrible and have casualties. And how many more shootings would there be if guns were allowed on campus? Think of dorms, drunken college fights would get a LOT more serious! The last thing I would want in rez is some stupid 20 yr old who's on their own for the first time, and they have a 9mm in their room! You'd feel safe with random people being allowed to carry handguns on campus? I sure as hell wouldn't! I don't know any of these people, I don't know why they are carrying, I don't know their training, or their mental stability. And you think we should let them carry guns? Are you fucking nuts?

JimmyTheHutt
17th April 07, 04:32 PM
I sure as hell wouldn't! I don't know any of these people, I don't know why they are carrying, I don't know their training, or their mental stability. And you think we should let them carry guns? Are you fucking nuts?

It is important to note regarding CCW laws that one must be able to pass a substantial background check as well as pass safety and legal training before issuance. Not everyone off the street can just get one.

Veritas et Lux!
Jimmy The Hutt

Stick
17th April 07, 04:33 PM
No Elipson, I got no PM from you.

As for "if the campus were armed this never would've happened"- and how many more impulse and accidental shooting would there be every year? Your arguement cuts both ways, and both are a bloody mess.

JimmyTheHutt
17th April 07, 04:39 PM
I understand how everyone wants to prevent something like this from happening again. The way to do that is to address the standing of mental health and mental health care in this country. Quite frankly, both are currently in atrocious standing. Blaming the implement does nothing. As I stated, it probably would have been easier for him to use homebrew explosives rather than a gun. He chained the doors to ensure maximum time to do what he wanted to do, and to prevent escape.

The point here is that the shooter was completely mentally unwell, either due to circumstances or genetics, we will likely never know.

Veritas et Lux!
Jimmy The Hutt

JimmyTheHutt
17th April 07, 04:42 PM
As for "if the campus were armed this never would've happened"- and how many more impulse and accidental shooting would there be every year? Your arguement cuts both ways, and both are a bloody mess.

I do not endorse the campus being armed. Given college circumstances, it is a bad decision. Just like other schools, it is a place for learning, not a place to walk armed. I was merely correcting and inaccurate perception of what it takes to get a CCW. Many people have a vision of CCW holders just salivating for the opportunity to shoot someone legally. This is not the case. Those of us that possess CCW permits are highly cognizant of the responsibility of carrying.

Veritas et Lux!
Jimmy The Hutt

Truculent Sheep
17th April 07, 04:56 PM
I've moved this post to here and deleted the original as it longer seemed appropriate there.


I'm pissed off - over 30 people dead and that cxxt John Humphries (the overpaid BBC journalist) and two other smug tossers are using this as an excuse to slag off Americans.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/li...r_20070417.ram

Irrespective of whether you're pro or anti gun, there's no excuse for this sort of self-righteous circle jerk, not when people have just died. Grind your axe at some later date, but not now, and not like this.

ICY
17th April 07, 04:59 PM
The way to do that is to address the standing of mental health and mental health care in this country.

Amen.

bob
17th April 07, 05:08 PM
It is important to note regarding CCW laws that one must be able to pass a substantial background check as well as pass safety and legal training before issuance. Not everyone off the street can just get one.

Veritas et Lux!
Jimmy The Hutt

I'm no expert on US gun laws but I think the whole CCW thing is a bit of a red herring, given that this guy bought the gun legally. In fact, my reading of the Virginia gun laws (taking aside the issue of whether the gun was allowed on campus or not) is that he was quite entitled to walk around with a loaded gun provided it was in plain view or carried in a place where an overt act was required to take it out (a backpack for instance).

Iscariot
17th April 07, 05:13 PM
I'm going to wait for more information on the whole thing before I start making armchair judgements.

A couple of things though:

Firstly, the article that said this was inevitable was correct. This was what is known in complexity theory as a gambler's ruin scenario. What is unfortunate is that complexity theory posits that such instances of 'bad luck' occur in streaks, the old adage of 'bad things come in threes' is true, there are likely to be similar instances in the near future.

Secondly, and outside of the the original thread where discussion of this should only take place I think is the subject of Mr. Jones' ban. Do not misunderstand, I did not like Mr. Jones as a poster, 99% of his posts made me want to perform open bowel surgery on my self and the other 1% made my teeth bleed, however Bullshido has never been in the business of banning anyone for insensitivity. Yes, his posts were asinine and uncalled for, especially after the personal involvement of Mav's friends became known, but to permaban him for not being nice? That's MAP territory.

JimmyTheHutt
17th April 07, 05:18 PM
I'm no expert on US gun laws but I think the whole CCW thing is a bit of a red herring, given that this guy bought the gun legally. In fact, my reading of the Virginia gun laws (taking aside the issue of whether the gun was allowed on campus or not) is that he was quite entitled to walk around with a loaded gun provided it was in plain view or carried in a place where an overt act was required to take it out (a backpack for instance).

That is correct. I was merely addressing the concept of a whole bunch of crazy, drunk college students with concealed firearms. Many people have a misconception that CCW licensed people are waiting for the opportunity to blow someone away. I wanted to address that misconception. It is, frankly, thread drift, but slightly relevant to the topic at hand.

Veritas et Lux!
Jimmy The Hutt

Stick
17th April 07, 05:55 PM
Well, well, well the talk with Jack Thompson I heard yesterday

weG7A4lTGtg

Timer in the bottom left hand corner reads 2:14, so basically not even four hours later Thompson had his political position ready to go.

Question!
17th April 07, 06:10 PM
Yes, as much as Mr. Jones' post irritate me, a permaban is unwarranted.

Thinkchair
17th April 07, 06:29 PM
I don't know. i kind of resent the tone coming from a lot in the European press, but it is a fair topic. Guns were used by someone to kill lots of people and the issue is worth debating. I think the Europeans are over simplifying the American attitude toward guns. We are very split over the issue of gun control, and I do not imagine that this will change very much in the near future. I noticed that a lot of the European press didn't just use the occassion to talk about America and guns, but also to complain about many of our institutions as well. I have to say it comes across as a little callous. In the end, this is our problem, and we know ourselves better than Europe does. I think the most practical approach at the moment is to seriously revamp security in our schools.

Thinkchair
17th April 07, 06:33 PM
If America had ALWAYS had harsh gun laws, the gun culture would've never developed, so essentially, the Europeans are right.

I happen to agree with you on the need for stronger gun control in America. But I think the issue is the attitude and timing on the Europeans. It seemed like they were just using the occassion to harp on America and had no real sympathy for the victims of this crime.

Truculent Sheep
17th April 07, 06:40 PM
Indeed - the point scoring is quite grotesque, but likewise on the Huffington Post et al too.

ICY
17th April 07, 06:44 PM
So they should talk about it...when? When NOTHING happens and NO ONE GIVES A SHIT?

Truculent Sheep
17th April 07, 06:47 PM
That's not my point, ICY. I meant that the crowing that's coming with such commentary is wrong - the triumphalist tone is inappropriate.

elipson
17th April 07, 07:03 PM
While I understand your point that not everyone can get a CCW lisence, that kind of works against you too. If CCW was allowed on campus, how many ppl would even take advantage of it? Either we have lots of ppl with guns, creating their own problems, or we have very few ppl with guns, in which case it is unlikely they will be at the right place at the right time. And they are not the police. I don't think I want them going running back into a violent situation thinking they are gonna be a hero, when they may end up shooting a bystander by mistake, or simply being another casualty themselves. Unless a person is trained to be entering a gun fight, I don't think I would want to encourage that.


Screw mr Jones. This is not about censorship. Maverick is one of our own. The guy is hurting bad right now. And Jones thinks its funny? Its not funny, its horrible. and its the fact that Jones would be so calous once it was discovered that this directly effected someone on the board. If this was just any other shooting and it didn't directly impact anyone, ok what he said was fair game. But to make a joke like that against someone on the board just proves that he doesn't give a shit about anyone here. IF he doesn't give a shit about anyone on this board, is he of any use? If he can't extend some basic human sympathy to another member of the board, then fuck him; we're better off without him.

And don't give me that Nazi forum bullshit. This is a community, and when you piss off the community by being blatantly inhuman and throwing salt in such a disgusting wound, what the hell do you expect?

This community has NO obligation to support, or allow, bullshit actions that do NOTHING but harm individual members on the board.

ironlurker
17th April 07, 07:48 PM
I think the Europeans are over simplifying the American attitude toward guns.
Frankly, I think it's a way of ignoring their own problems, and playing to the house, with the house being the assorted menagerie of Euro-socialist dinosaurs (and their contemporary retrofits).
Pierre Bourdieu, speaking of his compatriot politicians, said a Socialist was someone who couldn't understand why the masses preferred the Beatles to Beethoven and Benny Hill to Beckett.
The latter, and anyone else for that matter, have yet to provide any cogent ideas for realistically dealing with a big, angry, growing, unassimilated Muslim underclass, a problem interconnected with their own sub-replacement birth rates.
To say that this was simply caused by guns, which "we" are too stupid and too stubborn to give up, is an oversimplification at best.

However, to be frank again, I don't feel optimistic about the issues here in the US that seemed to have lead to this massacre.
We can debate back and forth how this would of turned out if he had no access to a gun. Sure, as I heard people say today, he could have used knives or pipebombs. The first though could not have been as horrifyingly effective, and the second, while it could have killed as many and more, would have required -possibly- more deliberation and sophistication than these spree psycho killers exert. Again, I think you could argue this either way.

The problem with gun control being the solution is that I'm afraid that Elvis has left the building, so to speak. I'm not saying this to be "pro-gun", if anything in terms of this I guess I might be a pessimist. I'm saying that I don't at this time see how legislative changes can make a big difference.

There are already tons of guns in circulation. Any effort to recover "illegal" guns is going to be piecemeal. If we were to revoke the second amendment, we'd still need to get around the fourth. We have extensive, porous borders and an emphasis on free trade which is going to make smuggling prevention that more difficult. Hell, I heard how Hezbollah was making money in the US selling smuggled tax-free cigarettes.

So then we keep guns legal but tighten gun laws. Between when someone is vetted for a permit and when a crime is committed a lot can happen. What if they're a great upstanding citizen and they happen to get hooked on meth and sell their gun illegally? Your perfectly legal gun owned by a once upstanding citizen has instantly become a bad illegal gun.

One of the reasons cited behind the failure of DC's super strict gun control is that people can simply drive to other states. So, if we want effective control (assuming that's possible), it will likely have to be national, and, I suspect, sweeping. There are many people who will not willingly give up their guns. This would be a big problem, and any type of national federal action will play right into the wet dream of the black-helicopters stockpiled-corn beef hash crowd. Hell, it might even legitimize them in the eyes of those not yet on the fringe.

Other issues here include mental health, as has already been raised, and, simply, anomie. Here's the problem: health care, screening, preventatives all cost money. In budget cutbacks, in MA at least, mental health is one of the first things that goes (that went, actually). There's a significant percent of the homeless population that in all likelihood belong in a state hospital (if you consider dual diagnosis cases, it's even higher

Thor in all the frauds, cons, and people who work the system, and it's hard to convince taxpayers that mental health screenings for children -for example- are a good idea when the disastrous outcome of slipping through the cracks is twenty years away. We need to improve it, but where are you going to get the money, and how are you going to convince people to pay? A city near me has a high school that is literally rotting away, the roof of the library has caved in, wrecking the books, and no computers, and the residents feel they are already taxed to the limit. I don't agree with them in this case, I think they're being shortsighted, but it's still a democracy.

How do you solve anomie? This and similar issues of modernity become even more complex when you have a highly mobile population that is very ethnically and culturally mixed. Japan is the violent video game (and violent porn) capital of the world, but compared to the US it's incredibly homogenous. When you have a uniform background aberrancy stands out, when you can't even find a translator to speak with someone to tell if they need services, things are more difficult.

Add to this our emphasis on personal rights and autonomy, indvidualism, even praise of eccentricity, and rights for religious and cultural groups out of the mainstream (none of which are bad in themselves) and it becomes harder to isolate and treat people who are falling through the cracks.
In the Jeremy Perkins case, the kid was a severe paranoid schizophrenic was was clearly developing the capability for violence. But, his parents were first-rank scientologists who prohibited him from taking meds, so he hacked up his mother. How can we prevent this?

Okay, so that was depressing.

Thinkchair
17th April 07, 08:06 PM
Frankly, I think it's a way of ignoring their own problems, and playing to the house, with the house being the assorted menagerie of Euro-socialist dinosaurs (and their contemporary retrofits).
Pierre Bourdieu, speaking of his compatriot politicians, said a Socialist was someone who couldn't understand why the masses preferred the Beatles to Beethoven and Benny Hill to Beckett.
The latter, and anyone else for that matter, have yet to provide any cogent ideas for realistically dealing with a big, angry, growing, unassimilated Muslim underclass, a problem interconnected with their own sub-replacement birth rates.
To say that this was simply caused by guns, which "we" are too stupid and too stubborn to give up, is an oversimplification at best.

However, to be frank again, I don't feel optimistic about the issues here in the US that seemed to have lead to this massacre.
We can debate back and forth how this would of turned out if he had no access to a gun. Sure, as I heard people say today, he could have used knives or pipebombs. The first though could not have been as horrifyingly effective, and the second, while it could have killed as many and more, would have required -possibly- more deliberation and sophistication than these spree psycho killers exert. Again, I think you could argue this either way.

The problem with gun control being the solution is that I'm afraid that Elvis has left the building, so to speak. I'm not saying this to be "pro-gun", if anything in terms of this I guess I might be a pessimist. I'm saying that I don't at this time see how legislative changes can make a big difference.

There are already tons of guns in circulation. Any effort to recover "illegal" guns is going to be piecemeal. If we were to revoke the second amendment, we'd still need to get around the fourth. We have extensive, porous borders and an emphasis on free trade which is going to make smuggling prevention that more difficult. Hell, I heard how Hezbollah was making money in the US selling smuggled tax-free cigarettes.

So then we keep guns legal but tighten gun laws. Between when someone is vetted for a permit and when a crime is committed a lot can happen. What if they're a great upstanding citizen and they happen to get hooked on meth and sell their gun illegally? Your perfectly legal gun owned by a once upstanding citizen has instantly become a bad illegal gun.

One of the reasons cited behind the failure of DC's super strict gun control is that people can simply drive to other states. So, if we want effective control (assuming that's possible), it will likely have to be national, and, I suspect, sweeping. There are many people who will not willingly give up their guns. This would be a big problem, and any type of national federal action will play right into the wet dream of the black-helicopters stockpiled-corn beef hash crowd. Hell, it might even legitimize them in the eyes of those not yet on the fringe.

Other issues here include mental health, as has already been raised, and, simply, anomie. Here's the problem: health care, screening, preventatives all cost money. In budget cutbacks, in MA at least, mental health is one of the first things that goes (that went, actually). There's a significant percent of the homeless population that in all likelihood belong in a state hospital (if you consider dual diagnosis cases, it's even higher

Thor in all the frauds, cons, and people who work the system, and it's hard to convince taxpayers that mental health screenings for children -for example- are a good idea when the disastrous outcome of slipping through the cracks is twenty years away. We need to improve it, but where are you going to get the money, and how are you going to convince people to pay? A city near me has a high school that is literally rotting away, the roof of the library has caved in, wrecking the books, and no computers, and the residents feel they are already taxed to the limit. I don't agree with them in this case, I think they're being shortsighted, but it's still a democracy.

How do you solve anomie? This and similar issues of modernity become even more complex when you have a highly mobile population that is very ethnically and culturally mixed. Japan is the violent video game (and violent porn) capital of the world, but compared to the US it's incredibly homogenous. When you have a uniform background aberrancy stands out, when you can't even find a translator to speak with someone to tell if they need services, things are more difficult.

Add to this our emphasis on personal rights and autonomy, indvidualism, even praise of eccentricity, and rights for religious and cultural groups out of the mainstream (none of which are bad in themselves) and it becomes harder to isolate and treat people who are falling through the cracks.
In the Jeremy Perkins case, the kid was a severe paranoid schizophrenic was was clearly developing the capability for violence. But, his parents were first-rank scientologists who prohibited him from taking meds, so he hacked up his mother. How can we prevent this?

Okay, so that was depressing.

You make some good points. I think the issue is more complicated than most make it out to be which is why I am hesitant to say that more gun laws are the answer. I think you are right, it may be too little too late for that. We might be better off trying to deal with the society we have right now. That is why I really do think schools need to take some initiative and get serious about security. Put campus police on patrols through the dorms and academic buildings. Hire armed security guards during classes. Put locks on the doors so students can at least get some space between themselves and a gun man. Better communications systems are clearly needed as well. Emailing students is just not an efficient way to get the message out. Understand, I am not blaming the school for any of this. The only person who is morally culpable is the guy who decided to do the shooting. But I think now that something like this has happened, schools should take the issue much more seriously.

Don "Jive Turkey" Gwinn
17th April 07, 10:12 PM
Soooo . . . . people who don't understand the issue and apparently have no interest in figuring it out have put their opinions out to the public, and it turns out their opinions are silly?

I'm shocked.

frumpleswift
17th April 07, 10:30 PM
Screw mr Jones. This is not about censorship. Maverick is one of our own. The guy is hurting bad right now. And Jones thinks its funny? Its not funny, its horrible. and its the fact that Jones would be so calous once it was discovered that this directly effected someone on the board. If this was just any other shooting and it didn't directly impact anyone, ok what he said was fair game. But to make a joke like that against someone on the board just proves that he doesn't give a shit about anyone here. IF he doesn't give a shit about anyone on this board, is he of any use? If he can't extend some basic human sympathy to another member of the board, then fuck him; we're better off without him.

And don't give me that Nazi forum bullshit. This is a community, and when you piss off the community by being blatantly inhuman and throwing salt in such a disgusting wound, what the hell do you expect?

This community has NO obligation to support, or allow, bullshit actions that do NOTHING but harm individual members on the board.

AMEN! But I still think we should have given him millions of neg rep, then beat him senseless with rubber ducks or something.


As for the stupid "if only everyone had a gun" argument. This philosophy would trade one giant massacare with many smaller killing sprees or shootings. The death toll would be higher in the end if everyone carried arround handguns all of the time.

Compare crime rates in wester towns before and after gun ordinances were introduced. Or look at european history in towns where wearing swords and dueling was legal, versus illegal.

Giving everyone a gun will prevent a massacare of this magnatude, and pay for that "safety" in blood.

That being said, as has already been pointed out on this board, the bigger problem is not gun-control, but how we deal with sick people. The murderer was a very unhealthy person.

I wonder what would have happened if Virginia Tech required mandatory psych screening for all of its students in additoin to other health screenings they may have (most school require some innoculations, etc. prior to admission).

Judah Maccabee
17th April 07, 10:48 PM
Regarding "standing of mental health:"

I absolutely agree there needs to be more done on a widespread basis to promote good mental health. Less reliance on medication, less medication for non-serious problems, increased insurance coverage beyond the typical 30 sessions per year, etc. etc.

But in this case, I don't think there was any real psychological initiative that could have stopped this issue. There were a bunch of people who had pointed out the oddities of this student. In fact, an English teacher was quoted as saying she pleaded with him to get psychological counseling from the school. Literally begged him to go, said she'd help him go over there, etc. etc. Even contacted the counseling dept. about him, but they said that unless he wanted to go there himself, there was nothing they could do.

For better or for worse, having morbid stories and screenplays and not responding to people who call your name isn't grounds for confinement, but I've been struggling with the question of "Could there have been some sort of measure that could have prevented this?" I'm not talking about V-Tech locking down the whole campus as soon as the dorm shootings occurred; I'm talking about social institutions in place that may have averted the situation.

And unfortunately, I don't think there were. I hope someone here can bring up evidence to suggest otherwise, but I think that unfortunately, some things slip through even the smallest of cracks and can cause severe damage and tragedy.

ironlurker
17th April 07, 10:57 PM
I wonder what would have happened if Virginia Tech required mandatory psych screening for all of its students in additoin to other health screenings they may have (most school require some innoculations, etc. prior to admission).
I think psych oversight in most colleges and universities is pretty poor. It's available, but it requires the student's own initiative. Many people don't know they need help, and others have the social or cultural taboo not to go, with the possible exception of trying to score ritalin.

I think -at least in the US, I don't know how it is in the UK- that the RA's are counted on way too much. Usually, they're just nice enough kids, maybe a little on the stickler for rules side, that want the free room and board to cut down on the costs. But life in your late teens is not what it once was- I had a friend who was an RA for a freshman girls floor and she had to deal with her kids' issues of rape, bulimia, pyschotic depression, and domestic violence on the first day.

Did anyone notice that in this case, the RA was the one who got shot along with the gf in the first killing trying to mediate?
I think this is part of the flaw in the system these killings might expose: a lot of shit, from mental health issues to criminal behavior, goes on that the traditional college format isn't really able to handle.

As I finish typing this I noticed Judah's post, and I agree we can't have a forty-eight hour commitment for everyone who writes a Tarantino-wannabe script, but I remember some psych issues among my fellow residents that went on way too long. I can't say it was incompetence, specifically, I think the system might not be designed tohandle it. Maybe these things are inevitable.

JimmyTheHutt
17th April 07, 11:02 PM
While I understand your point that not everyone can get a CCW lisence, that kind of works against you too. If CCW was allowed on campus, how many ppl would even take advantage of it? Either we have lots of ppl with guns, creating their own problems, or we have very few ppl with guns, in which case it is unlikely they will be at the right place at the right time. And they are not the police. I don't think I want them going running back into a violent situation thinking they are gonna be a hero, when they may end up shooting a bystander by mistake, or simply being another casualty themselves. Unless a person is trained to be entering a gun fight, I don't think I would want to encourage that.


I was not advocating for many armed people on campus. I was merely trying to correct an incorrect view of CCW holders. There are many places where weapons are not appropriate, even with proper training and handling. A college campus is one of them.

However, the situation as you draw it is not accurate. When I say not everyone can get a CCW, this is accurate. Felons, anyone with a domestic disturbance charge on their record within a certain amount of time, those with a history of mental health issues, these are all people who are not able to procure a CCW. Most regular citizens, if they can dedicate the time to the course and pass the written and physical exams, can obtain one without issue. Part of this training is recognition of the appropriate time to use your weapon (which is not - at least in AZ - restricted to a firearm). Most states that have instituted a "will issue" stance on CCW issuance have encountered a reduced crime rate and less deaths from firearms. However, I think Florida is an exception because it is Florida, and therefore insane. Once again, I do not say that CCW holders on a college campus would have prevented or reduced this situation. I am not advocating for an armed campus. I am merely stating the situation regarding CCW. Good Mental Health Care is the tool that would have prevented this, IMHO.

Veritas et Lux!
Jimmy The Hutt

WarPhalange
17th April 07, 11:08 PM
I heard an interview on NPR today with one of the guy's English professors. She said that when she read over his work, it was "troubling", so she did report it to the counceling center and I think even the police. They just said they can't legally do anything until he at least threatens someone.

My opinions on the matter: People do underestimate mental illnesses in both magnitude and quantity. No, you can't just "snap out of it".

However, I say some of the dumbest shit ever. I act exactly the same on here as I do in real life (TM). Sometimes people are shocked at what I say, because they can't handle The Awesome. Do you have any idea how many times I would be sent to the counceling center if it was legal?

JimmyTheHutt
17th April 07, 11:10 PM
As for the stupid "if only everyone had a gun" argument. This philosophy would trade one giant massacare with many smaller killing sprees or shootings. The death toll would be higher in the end if everyone carried arround handguns all of the time.

Compare crime rates in wester towns before and after gun ordinances were introduced. Or look at european history in towns where wearing swords and dueling was legal, versus illegal.

Giving everyone a gun will prevent a massacare of this magnatude, and pay for that "safety" in blood.


Statistically, the opposite is actually true. As previously stated, most states that institute a "will carry" stance in regards to CCW experience a lower violent crime rate and less deaths from firearms. I know the perception is just handing a gun to every Tom, Dick, and Harry on the street. However, the training that states require before receiving a permit is very good training for the average citizen who does not expect to engage in firefights on a daily basis.

That being said, more guns on the campus is a stupid, bad, idea. Like banks or government buildings, campus (public school or otherwise) are simply not the place for firearms unless you are a trained, professional peace officer or military personnel engaged in legitimate activity.

We are in complete agreement regarding the Mental Health factor of this discussion.

Veritas et Lux!
Jimmy The Hutt

ironlurker
17th April 07, 11:10 PM
Do you have any idea how many times I would be sent to the counceling center if it was legal?
http://imgred.com/http://tomraworth.com/ludovico.jpg

ironlurker
17th April 07, 11:34 PM
So this appears to be the latest info on the killer:


Lucinda Roy, a co-director of the creative writing program at Virginia Tech, taught Cho in a poetry class in fall of 2005 and later worked with him one-on-one after she became concerned about his behavior and themes in his writings . . .

Roy told ABC News that Cho seemed "extraordinarily lonely—the loneliest person I have ever met in my life." She said he wore sunglasses indoors, with a cap pulled low over his eyes. He whispered, took 20 seconds to answer questions, and took cellphone pictures of her in class. Roy said she was concerned for her safety when she met with him.

One play attributed to him, called "Richard McBeef," describes a 13-year-old boy who accuses his stepfather of pedophilia, and ends with the boy's death.
In another, called "Mr. Brownstone," three high-school students face an abusive teacher.
"I wanna kill him," says one character.
"I wanna watch him bleed like the way he made us kids bleed," says another . .


http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3048108&page=2

elipson
17th April 07, 11:38 PM
I think -at least in the US, I don't know how it is in the UK- that the RA's are counted on way too much. Usually, they're just nice enough kids, maybe a little on the stickler for rules side, that want the free room and board to cut down on the costs. But life in your late teens is not what it once was- I had a friend who was an RA for a freshman girls floor and she had to deal with her kids' issues of rape, bulimia, pyschotic depression, and domestic violence on the first day.

You have no idea. RA's go through a lot of training, but there's no real way to prepare for the stress of being an RA. As an RA, you either care too much and end up with baggage (myself), or you don't care at all and do a shitty job anyways. RA's deal with a LOT of drama and in reality not everyone in rez even comes out of their room. Second year students are not psychiatrist's, but they have to deal with a lot of psychological issues.

WarPhalange
17th April 07, 11:42 PM
It doesn't help that second year tends to be the cut year for a lot of majors.

nihilist
18th April 07, 02:05 AM
If America had ALWAYS had harsh gun laws, the gun culture would've never developed, so essentially, the Europeans are right.

LOL. you are retarded.

Kein Haar
18th April 07, 02:16 AM
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=%5CNation%5Carchive%5C200209%5 CNAT20020917a.html

After two armed southwest Virginia law students stopped a campus shooting rampage in January,...

No kidding?

Steve
18th April 07, 02:29 AM
George Mason University School of Law, not Vtech. And over 4 years old.

Lawyers have to worry about retribution all the time anyway, that's one of the few reasons I admire them.

nihilist
18th April 07, 02:36 AM
Giving everyone firearms is just as preposterous as having no one armed.

There IS a balance people.

At the very least there needs to be some non-lethal weapons available on campus'

Sun Wukong
18th April 07, 03:50 AM
OK, I'm going to give my two cents about what happened here: This is my opinion and I certainly don't want to piss anyone off, but here goes.

The first victim in the dorm was a girl. According to witness accounts he and the girl were arguing or shouting in the hall. The shooter shot the girl, and then when the RA came out, he shot the RA. Apparently, he didn't live in that dorm and was carrying a firearm with him at the time. He approached the girl whom he did not know supposedly randomly, but as seen in her pictures she was a rather pretty girl. He was socially inept and had a history of problems with women apparently.

My speculation is that he approached the girl specifically for the purpose of forcing the girl into her room for the purpose of rape.

When she saw the handgun, instead of quietly complying she began shouting for help, so he shot her either out of fear or anger that she wasn't complying. The shouts and gunfire drew the attention of the RA who emerged from his room and was summarily shot and killed as well.

I think the first two murders were done in the heat of the moment without being specifically planned, rather an intended rape rather than a double murder.

He apparently immediately fled the scene and was hiding out for the next 2 hours. If he had intended on a massacre in norris hall initially, he wouldn't have started killing strangers in the dorm 2 hours previously.

After the first killings he probably knew he wasn't going to get very far, so he decided to take out his frustrations on strangers whom he felt owed him some kind of debt. He's unhappy with the world as it exists, so naturally it must be the worlds fault.

Also, sadly, from what I saw a fair number of his victims were pretty girls and random men. I think that alot of this was fueled by sexual frustrations as much as normal social ineptitude.

In short, he was a loser who thought the world owed him something, he didn't get it, so he decided to kill innocent people.

nihilist
18th April 07, 03:58 AM
A loser with high capacity clips and two handguns and chains for the doors.

Yeah, doesn't sound planned at all.

Kein Haar
18th April 07, 06:44 AM
Giving everyone firearms is just as preposterous as having no one armed

Where do people get this idea that some entity is going to "give" everyone a firearm, or that "everyone" would carry, even if they could?

This shouldn't be a big mystery anymore, as it's allowed by law in 48 states.

What's stupid is having blanket laws or policies disallowing them in benign settings. I'm not pulling the 2nd Amendment card if a tavern doesn't want their customers carrying. What would be lame, however, if a legal sanction existed saying the owner and his employees couldn't.

Yes, balance *is* good. Adopting any sort of simple-minded dogma is generally bad.

"Everybody" will never carry. "Giving" everybody guns will never happen.

Legal defensive manuevers with handguns happen much more frequently than shit like this, but it's just a shame nobody had a chance....as intended....per policy...in cases like this. Most people would not have wanted to be there that day, but some people probably wished they were. Perhaps there were a couple who had the right mentality but lacked the means. Went to school with plenty of prior military, for example. Not that I'd expect some average 18 year old to do much.

Kein Haar
18th April 07, 06:53 AM
George Mason University School of Law, not Vtech. And over 4 years old.

Very good, Steve.

Shu2jack
18th April 07, 07:57 AM
Are you fucking serious?

This wouldn't have stopped this, the only thing it could have achieved is to start a gun battle, which would STILL be horrible and have casualties. And how many more shootings would there be if guns were allowed on campus? Think of dorms, drunken college fights would get a LOT more serious! The last thing I would want in rez is some stupid 20 yr old who's on their own for the first time, and they have a 9mm in their room! You'd feel safe with random people being allowed to carry handguns on campus? I sure as hell wouldn't! I don't know any of these people, I don't know why they are carrying, I don't know their training, or their mental stability. And you think we should let them carry guns? Are you fucking nuts?


As it was mentioned, there ARE requirements in order to obtain a firearm and a concealed weapon permit. Personally, I would rather have a firearm since those who are carrying illegally might have no training and lack mental stability.

I believe you have to be 21 to carry a handgun. That is 2-3 years out of highschool to mature up and get the boozing out of your system and mature. If a student can pass the the state requirements to carry, what is your issue?

Could there be a trade-off to my argument? Yes. There could be more "minor" shootings in replacement of mass killing sprees. I am not debating that. My concern is that those victims didn't have the tools available to them to defend themselves. Trading freedom for security is a bad bargain.

billy sol hurok
18th April 07, 08:18 AM
I believe you have to be 21 to carry a handgun. That is 2-3 years out of highschool to mature up and get the boozing out of your system and mature.
*remembers college years, and immediate aftermath*

Yeah, that oughta do it.

"Hay guys, I'm pledging Omega Sig-Sauer!"

Shu2jack
18th April 07, 08:23 AM
*remembers college years, and immediate aftermath*

Yeah, that oughta do it.

"Hay guys, I'm pledging Omega Sig-Sauer!"

*remembers college years*

"God 2 jobs and going to college full-time sucks, but at least I won't be in debt when I get out!"


Not every young adult is a moron and there should be certain requirements to obtain a handgun. Banning firearms is not the answer, just like how letting everyone have a gun is not an answer either.

mrblackmagic
18th April 07, 08:41 AM
The guy was a legal U.S. citizen, he had no criminal record, and he was high school educated. On a background check, that sounds like an upstanding citizen. I'm wondering how gov is going to draw this law up. Are you going to add mental evaluations to the criteria.

emboesso
18th April 07, 09:12 AM
Mental health referrals can get sticky.

I worked with a black/female supervisor who everyone knew was cuckoo for cocoa puffs. Any directions given to her to set her on the right path were met with "Oh, because I'm black AND a female?" stuff.

This was in a civil service setting which takes such allegations with ridiculous seriousness, so everyone backed off every time. Eventually she was bagged stealing things, big things, and wound up in jail. A subsequent search warrant of her home found many more stolen items stacked up from over the years and never used. She had no bed, no TV, but tons of stolen items.

She was not a greedy thief, she was a classic kleptomaniac. She could have been helped but conflicting departments, each with their own interests, basically prevented her from getting the help she needed. An otherwise bright, educated, and efficient woman, brought down by mental illness which could have been prevented.

This guy's race could have played into him not getting as much attention as he needed also, especially considering the big PC mentality on our campuses. "Oh, you think I'm weird? Why? Because I'm asian?" etc.

Thinkchair
18th April 07, 09:16 AM
This guy's race could have played into him not getting as much attention as he needed also, especially considering the big PC mentality on our campuses. "Oh, you think I'm weird? Why? Because I'm asian?" etc.

I don't know. I think Asians can't really play the race card like blacks or hispanics. I agree with some of the other things you were saying, but I don't see a connection between this guy being Asian and people not paying attention to his activity.

billy sol hurok
18th April 07, 09:19 AM
*remembers college years*

"God 2 jobs and going to college full-time sucks, but at least I won't be in debt when I get out!"


Not every young adult is a moron and there should be certain requirements to obtain a handgun. Banning firearms is not the answer, just like how letting everyone have a gun is not an answer either.
Hell, I worked before, during and after college too. Nevertheless, despite my fiscal responsibility, I may have been prone to other types of lapses in judgment . . . (In the interest of partial disclosure, drinking age was 18 back then.)

I was just getting a slight case of the fantods when I pictured frat boyz with Uzis -- and thought I'd share.

Whoever suggested on-campus permits for ROTC kids, well that might be a thought.

Shu2jack
18th April 07, 09:25 AM
Hell, I worked before, during and after college too. Nevertheless, despite my fiscal responsibility, I may have been prone to other types of lapses in judgment . . . (In the interest of partial disclosure, drinking age was 18 back then.)

As opposed to grown adults, whom never drink or have lapses in judgement?

Like I said, I just don't feel comfortable with the idea of being barred from having the tools nesscary to protect myself in an emergancy.

Shawarma
18th April 07, 09:39 AM
Consider the size of the United States in both population and territory. Now consider any one Western European country along those lines.
Non-argument. The amount of gunfire kills pr. capita is much, much higher in the US than in Europe, as is, I belive, the number of murders. But that's IMO an issue with poverty rather than culture or weapon control.

JimmyTheHutt
18th April 07, 09:51 AM
Non-argument. The amount of gunfire kills pr. capita is much, much higher in the US than in Europe, as is, I belive, the number of murders. But that's IMO an issue with poverty rather than culture or weapon control.

I certainly agree that poverty is a factor. However, I would also say that there is something in our culture that almost encourages incidents like this. I am not certain what it is, but we produce more crazy people per capita than anywhere else. This is why I say that this is a Health Care (including Mental Health) issue.

Veritas et Lux!
Jimmy The Hutt

ignatzami
18th April 07, 10:12 AM
A loser with high capacity clips and two handguns and chains for the doors.

Yeah, doesn't sound planned at all.

He went to ground for two hours, nobody (as of yet) knows where he went or what he did. He may have had the mags and ammo since originally purchasing the handguns. As for the chains, they can be found (or bought) quite easily. Once he made up his mind to start killing he had all the time he needed to do it right.

As for a preventative measure, communication between campus "security" (who are usually unarmed) and police is at best woefully inadequate. Most campuses are private property and therefore outside of police jurisdiction unless they are invited on campus.

I was hit in a campus parking lot by a drunk driver within sight of a state trooper and had to call campus security so they could have the cop who SAW ME GET HIT come into the parking lot to investigate because the parking lot is private property. This is the reality of a college campus.

I do not advocate wide distribution of firearms to students but I do advocate a well trained, well equipped campus security. Especially with close ties to the surrounding law enforcement. This should be the first step to preventing future shootings.

GuiltySpark
18th April 07, 10:28 AM
The shooting at Virginia Tech is the result of America's woeful lack of serious gun control laws. In the strongest editorialized image of the day, German cable news broadcaster NTV flashed an image of the former head of the National Rifle Association, the US gun lobby: In other words, blame rifle-wielding Charlton Heston for the 33 dead.Yup gun control and registering your firearms worked wonders for the germans in 1938.Giving students firearms is a bad idea.Considering professional soldiersand police officers have accidental discharges of their weapons, resulting sometimes in death, giving students pistols (even more prone to ADs/NDs than rifles) is asking for kids shot int he face.You need well trained and armed security guards.Communication too. Soon as there is an issue of violence then go to defcon 1, send in the police.

nihilist
18th April 07, 10:35 AM
Non-argument. The amount of gunfire kills pr. capita is much, much higher in the US than in Europe,




The US has something called Crips and Bloods; perhaps you've heard of them.

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/4119/circumgunqo1.gif

ironlurker
18th April 07, 01:55 PM
Posting the statistics is definitely a good idea. This has a lot of them: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

Here's a question for everyone . . .



Compassion: Students Forgive Virginia Tech Killer

One such group, called "Eternal Rest Grant Unto Him, O Lord: Cho Seung-Hui," now has over 50 members signed up in the group, and they are speaking their minds. Most members do not attend Virginia Tech, and they range from high school students to graduates from all over the country.

On the group's bulletin board, 19-year-old Montclair State University freshman Justin Heba explained why he joined the group, writing: "Cho Seung-Hui lived eight-thousand, four-hundred, and eighty-nine days. I and no reasonable person, or deity, could or should allow the events of one of them to discount the other eight-thousand, four-hundred, and eighty-eight," the student wrote. "You will be in my prayers, Cho, though I never knew you -- it is a shame that you died the way you did, and that so many others died that day too." http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_107170729.html

I've heard this debated with other attacks. Is there, for whatever reason, too much of a rush to have everyone forgive, and have that over-used word, "closure"? It seems like everyone is supposed to skip anger (as well as bargaining and depression) and go straight from denial to acceptance, in this case in less than forty-eight hours.

Forgiving someone who executed your friend or classmate for no reason, is, I guess, great if that's what your moral beliefs indicate you should do. I'm not questioning the sincerity of these kids in particular, but you see this more and more when things like this happen. It might be the effect of pop Christianity, it might be the effect of political correctness, but it bothers me a little because I think there may even be some social/media pressure to deny the stage of anger.

Does the disposable culture want you to have closure from a half-hour candlelight vigil so the next news cycle/sales promotion can begin?

Shawarma
18th April 07, 01:57 PM
'Tis the Christian thing to do.

If Mr. Shooter had gotten laid more, none of this would have happened.

JimmyTheHutt
18th April 07, 02:03 PM
'Tis the Christian thing to do.

If Mr. Shooter had gotten laid more, none of this would have happened.

I don't really think that's the issue. I think the shooter suffered from undiagnosed Asperger's Syndrome or something similar. However, I am untrained in psychological and psychiatric disciplines, so I might be completely off base. The shooter's complete social dysfunction seems a strong indicator for it though. The only thing that would have helped was intensive therapy and the right cocktail of meds.

Veritas et Lux!
Jimmy The Hutt

Shawarma
18th April 07, 02:21 PM
Dunno. Sounded like the average, slightly creepy friendless dork you find in every classroom.

JimmyTheHutt
18th April 07, 02:40 PM
Dunno. Sounded like the average, slightly creepy friendless dork you find in every classroom.

From what I've read, it is substantially more than "slightly creepy". But, again, I am no expert.

Veritas et Lux!
Jimmy The Hutt

GuiltySpark
18th April 07, 03:04 PM
One such group, called "Eternal Rest Grant Unto Him, O Lord: Cho Seung-Hui," now has over 50 members signed up in the group, and they are speaking their minds. Most members do not attend Virginia Tech, and they range from high school students to graduates from all over the country.I guess it's easy to forgive someone who didn't blow away your friends, or shoot you, whom you never met.Thanks for forgiving this fella!
it is a shame that you died the way you did, and that so many others died that day too." Ya it's a shame HE killed them and didn't just blow himself away.

Mister X
18th April 07, 04:56 PM
I think people in countries that still have monarchies need to shut the fuck up.

ironlurker
18th April 07, 04:59 PM
MSNBC

Sometime after he killed two people in a Virginia university dormitory but before he slaughtered 30 more in a classroom building Monday morning, Cho Seung-Hui mailed NBC News a rambling communication and videos about his grievances, the network said Wednesday . . .

Capus said gloved NBC security personnel handled the package very carefully as soon as it arrived. The network immediately called the FBI and turned it over.
The package bore a U.S. Postal Service stamp recording that it had been received at a Virginia post office at 9:01 a.m. ET Monday, about an hour and 45 minutes after Cho shot two people in the West Ambler Johnston residence hall on the Virginia Tech campus and shortly before Cho entered Norris Hall, where he killed 30 more people.
“We probably would have received the mail earlier had it not been that he had the wrong address and ZIP code,” Capus said.

Shooter speaks on camera
Among the materials are 23 QuickTime video files showing Cho talking directly to the camera about his hatred of the wealthy, Capus said.

As early as 2005, police and school administrators were wrestling with what to do with Cho, who was accused of stalking two female students and was sent to a mental health facility after police obtained a temporary detention order.

The two women complained to campus police that Cho was contacting them with “annoying” telephone calls and e-mail messages in November and December 2005, campus Police Chief Wendell Flinchum said.
Cho was referred to the university’s disciplinary system, but Flinchum said the woman declined to press charges, and the case apparently never reached a hearing.

Detention order issued
However, after the second incident, the department received a call from an acquaintance of Cho’s, who was concerned that he might be suicidal, Flinchum said. Police obtained a temporary detention order from a local magistrate, and in December of that year, Cho was voluntarily but briefly admitted to Carilion St. Albans Behavioral Health Center in Radford, NBC News’ Jim Popkin reported.
To issue a detention order under Virginia law, a magistrate must find both that the subject is “mentally ill and in need of hospitalization or treatment” and that the subject is “an imminent danger to himself or others, or is so seriously mentally ill as to be substantially unable to care for himself.”

According to a doctor’s report accompanying the order, which was first reported by the Richmond Times-Dispatch, Cho was “depressed,” but “his insight and judgment are normal.” The doctor, a clinical psychologist who was not identified, noted that Cho “denies suicidal ideations.”

Under the law, the magistrate could have issued a stronger detention order mandating inpatient treatment, but there was no indication Wednesday that such an order was ever entered. A spokesman for Carilion St. Albans told NBC News that he could not discuss Cho’s case because of patient confidentiality and privacy laws, but he said the hospital was cooperating with the investigation.
Otherwise, Flinchum said, there were no further police incidents involving Cho until the deadly shootings Monday, first in a young woman’s dormitory room and then at a classroom building across campus. Neither of the alleged stalking victims was among the victims Monday.

In addition to the 33 people confirmed dead, including the gunman, nine people remained in hospitals in stable condition, hospital authorities said.

Health records sought
Campus police applied Wednesday for search warrants for all of Cho’s medical records from Schiffert Health Center on campus and New River Community Services in Blacksburg.
”It is reasonable to believe that the medical records may provide evidence of motive, intent and designs,” investigators wrote in the documents, according to The Associated Press . . .


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776


'Imminent Danger to Himself' The evaluation came from a psychiatric hospital near Virginia Tech, where Cho was taken by police in December 2005, after two female schoolmates said they received threatening messages from him, and police and school officials became concerned that he might be suicidal.

After Dr. Crouse's psychological evaluation of Cho, Special Justice Paul M. Barnett certified the finding, ordering followup treatment on an outpatient basis.
On the form, a box is checked, showing that the person "presents an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness."
Immediately below it was another box that is not checked: "Presents an imminent danger to others as a result of mental illness."
Authorities said they had no contact with Cho between then and Monday's mass killings.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/print?id=3052278

Iscariot
18th April 07, 05:19 PM
I think people in countries that still have monarchies need to shut the fuck up.
People from the same state as the Bush dynasty really need to think more before they make blanket statements.

frumpleswift
18th April 07, 05:23 PM
I did a little research at work today, just because I was curious about crime statistics in the U.S. I wanted to see if "gun friendly" regions were more or less likely to have high crime rates, but it was really all over the place. The only strong correlation that I saw was poverty.

Eight of the top ten 10 murder per population cities listed here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Cities_by_Crime_Rate) had poverty rates of 24% or higher according to the American Community Survey (http://www.census.gov/prod/2006pubs/acs-02.pdf) (PDF, page 24 of the PDF, 18 of the report)

As for the treatment of mental health in this country, the biggest problem is that there is such a stigma on mental disease, so people are ashamed or afraid to seek treatment for a sickness.

ironlurker
18th April 07, 05:30 PM
Anyone interested in judging his writings -and how they'd view them as a teacher etc.- can now read the play that asks the eternal question, "Are you a bisexual psycho rapist murderer?"

"As for banging my mom, looks like that lasted as long as your pathetic career, you prematurely ejaculating piece of dickshit . . .

(John sticks his half-eaten banana cereal bar in his step-father's mouth and attempts to shove it down his throat)"

Paging Dr. Freud!

Smoking Gun has the text of what looks like most of the play.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech1.html

Iscariot
18th April 07, 06:11 PM
Anyone interested in judging his writings -and how they'd view them as a teacher etc.- can now read the play that asks the eternal question, "Are you a bisexual psycho rapist murderer?"

"As for banging my mom, looks like that lasted as long as your pathetic career, you prematurely ejaculating piece of dickshit . . .

(John sticks his half-eaten banana cereal bar in his step-father's mouth and attempts to shove it down his throat)"

Paging Dr. Freud!

Smoking Gun has the text of what looks like most of the play.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech1.html
I'd like to point out that it is possible for people to write fiction that is not connected to their intent, psychological status or as a pretext to their planned or unplanned future actions.

ironlurker
18th April 07, 06:35 PM
I'd like to point out that it is possible for people to write fiction that is not connected to their intent, psychological status or as a pretext to their planned or unplanned future actions.
True in the abstract, of course, but his professors felt differently in this particular context:



Professor Had Expelled Gunman From Class
BLACKSBURG, Va. (AP) - The mood in the basketball arena was defeated, funereal Nikki Giovanni seemed an unlikely source of strength for a Virginia Tech campus reeling from the depravity of one of its own . .
Nearly two years earlier, Giovanni had stood up to Cho Seung-Hui before he drenched the campus in blood . . .

In September 2005, Cho was enrolled in Giovanni's introduction to creative writing class. From the beginning, he began building a wall between himself and the rest of the class.
He wore sunglasses to class and pulled his maroon knit cap down low over his forehead. When she tried to get him to participate in class discussion, his answer was silence.
"Sometimes, students try to intimidate you," Giovanni told The Associated Press in a telephone interview Wednesday. "And I just assumed that he was trying to assert himself."
But then female students began complaining about Cho.
About five weeks into the semester, students told Giovanni that Cho was taking photographs of their legs and knees under the desks with his cell phone. She told him to stop, but the damage was already done.
Female students refused to come to class, submitting their work by computer instead. As for Cho, he was not adding anything to the classroom atmosphere, only detracting.
Police asked Giovanni not to disclose the exact content or nature of Cho's poetry [CYA because the administration said they could do nothing] But she said it was not violent like other writings that have been circulating.
It was more invasive.
"Violent is like, `I'm going to do this,'" said Giovanni, a three-time NAACP Image Award winner who is sometimes called "the princess of black poetry." This was more like a personal violation, as if Cho were objectifying his subjects, "doing thing to your body parts."
"It's not like, `I'll rip your heart out,'" she recalled. "It's that, `Your bra is torn,and I'm looking at your flesh.'"
His work had no meter or structure or rhyme scheme. To Giovanni, it was simply "a tirade."

[If you read Richard McBeef- not that it's a worthwhile use of your time- you'll notice this. He himself did not speak broken english- he was an English major- and the style is very weird and disconnected. There's no sympathetic character, they're all cyphers. No, I am not saying poor man's Seneca=dangerous psycho, but that I can understand why the instructors were weirded out]

"There was no writing. I wasn't teaching him anything, and he didn't want to learn anything," she said. "And I finally realized either I was going to lose my class, or Mr. Cho had to leave."
Giovanni wrote a letter to then-department head Lucinda Roy, who removed Cho.
Roy alerted student affairs, , the dean's office, even the campus police, but each said there was nothing they could do if Cho had made no overt threats against himself or others. So Roy took him on as a kind of personal tutor.
"At first he would hardly say anything, and I was lucky to get, say, in 30 minutes, four or five monosyllabic answers from him," she said. "But bit by bit, he began to tell me things."
During their hourlong sessions, Roy encouraged Cho to express himself in writing. She would compose poems with him, contributing to the works herself and taking dictation from him.
"I tried to keep him focused on things that were outside the self a little bit," said Roy, who has been at Virginia Tech for 22 years. "Because he seemed to be running inside circles in a maze when he was talking about himself."
He was "very guarded" when it came to his family. But she got him to open up about his feelings of isolation.
"You seem so lonely," she told him once. "Do you have any friends?"
"I am lonely," he replied. "I don't have any friends."
Suitemates and others have said Cho rejected their overtures of friendship. Roy sensed that Cho's isolation might be largely self- imposed.
To her, it was as if he were two people.
"He was actually quite arrogant and could be quite obnoxious, and was also deeply, it seemed, insecure," she said.
But when she wrote to Cho about his behavior in Giovanni's class, Roy received what she described as "a pretty strident response."
"It was a vigorous defense of the self," she said. "He clearly felt that he was in the right and that the professor was in the wrong. It was the kind of tone that I would never have used as an undergraduate at a faculty member."
She felt he fancied himself a loner, but she wasn't sure what underlay that feeling.
"I mean, if you see yourself as a loner, sometimes that means you feel very isolated and insecure and inferior. Or it can mean that you feel quite superior to others, because you've distanced yourself. And I think he went from one extreme to another."
When the semester ended, so did Roy's and Cho's collaboration. She went on leave and thought he had graduated . . .

Giovanni encountered Cho only once after she removed him from class. She was walking down a campus path and noticed him coming toward her. They maintained eye contact until passing each other.
Giovanni, who had survived lung cancer, was determined she would not blink first.
"I was not going to look away as if I were afraid," she said. "To me he was a bully, and I had no fear of this child."


http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8OJ9LS00&show_article=1

ironlurker
18th April 07, 06:39 PM
The material is “hard-to-follow ... disturbing, very disturbing,”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776

^That's what I mean, not that it's "sex/muder, oh, so disturbing, bad" but that when someone's own writing/speech is hard-to-follow beyond a certain point, that's a big part of what makes it disturbing.

frumpleswift
18th April 07, 06:44 PM
As for a side issue, I see that Mr. Jones has been un-permabanned, and relegated down to a one week banning.

Everyone remember to welcome him back with a friendly deluge of negative rep, and a resounding ass beating.

billy sol hurok
18th April 07, 06:51 PM
I suppose here's as good a place to ask as any: Where do we nominate candidates for Baddass Of the Month?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/be/Genpic.jpg

GuiltySpark
18th April 07, 07:05 PM
As for a side issue, I see that Mr. Jones has been un-permabanned, and relegated down to a one week banning. That'll really bring up the post quality

DAYoung
18th April 07, 07:06 PM
...the gun-control argument may be missing the cultural point. Most Swiss and Israeli households with a male between the ages of 18 and 45 also contain a fully automatic weapon, because the national military mobilisation model in those countries requires reservists to keep their weapons at home. Yet the Swiss and Israelis don't murder one another at a higher rate than people in countries such as Britain or Turkey, where there is relatively strict gun control.

"Guns don't kill people; people kill people" is the best-known slogan of the National Rifle Association, the most effective pro-gun lobbying organisation in the US. But it's really a cultural thing. [...] The slogan should actually go: "Guns don't kill Americans; Americans kill Americans." - from here (http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/live-and-die-by-the-gun/2007/04/18/1176696913510.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1)

This was in The Age today, Melbourne's slightly left-of centre broadsheet.

elipson
18th April 07, 07:09 PM
As for a side issue, I see that Mr. Jones has been un-permabanned, and relegated down to a one week banning.
I'm satisfied with that. The mods drew a line in the sand and stood up for one of our own.

People get too carried away with the idea that just because we encourage different opinions here that it gives them a license to be an unproductive asshole.

DAYoung
18th April 07, 07:10 PM
I'm satisfied with that. The mods drew a line in the sand and stood up for one of our own.

People get too carried away with the idea that just because we encourage different opinions here that it gives them a license to be an unproductive asshole.

I agree with this. There was no call for Jones' posts - I don't think they're redeemable.

Zendetta
18th April 07, 07:16 PM
Actually, I like the idea of him coming back in a week so we can ease our grief by pissing all over him.

DAYoung
18th April 07, 07:21 PM
Actually, I like the idea of him coming back in a week so we can ease our grief by pissing all over him.

I can understand that.

But to be honest, I'd rather have nothing to do with him.

His was a genuinely disturbing and extremely disappointing response to grief and loss - I'd want a fucking good explanation for that kind of callous bullshit before my 'Ignore' list was changed.

frumpleswift
18th April 07, 07:50 PM
Like I said, neg rep and beating. I never supported banning him, as I don't believe that the powers that be should censor idiocy, but that doesn't stop us from pissing on him.

Steve
18th April 07, 08:11 PM
I suppose here's as good a place to ask as any: Where do we nominate candidates for Baddass Of the Month?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/be/Genpic.jpg

FUCK YEAH.

Dude died blocking the door as Cho tried to enter so some of his students could escape out windows. RIP.

WarPhalange
18th April 07, 08:14 PM
Who is this person?

Steve
18th April 07, 08:25 PM
Like I said, neg rep and beating. I never supported banning him, as I don't believe that the powers that be should censor idiocy, but that doesn't stop us from pissing on him.

Yeah, that about sums it up.

It was decided that being a site that lets it's members speak their minds is more important than permanently banning idiots for doing just that.

Your strategy for handling Mr. Jones when he returns sounds appropriate.

Steve
18th April 07, 08:30 PM
Who is this person?

A quick search brings this up:

Israeli Professor And Holocaust Survivor Among Those Killed in VTech Massacre

Professor Liviu Librescu wasn't just an educator, he was a hero. An Israeli and Holocaust survivor, Librescu taught Engineering Science & Mechanics and was renowned for his advancements in aeronautical engineering. He was killed while trying to protect and save his students. He tried to keep the class-room door closed as the gunman shot his way into the class-room. As the gunman, a VTech student Cho Seung-Hui, cocked his gun to start shooting the students, Librescu threw himself in front of the gun and was shot and killed as he gave his students precious time to escape through the second story windows.

What a selfless heroic act. I don't even know what to say. I think we should all take a moment of silence today to reflect and give honor and remembrance to those that were senselessly slaughtered yesterday.
Baruch Dayin He'Emet.

http://www.israelated.com/node/12924

WarPhalange
18th April 07, 08:37 PM
A God among men.

Steve
18th April 07, 08:40 PM
Indeed.

DAYoung
18th April 07, 08:58 PM
Evil pricks like Cho are the worst of humanity - Librescu, the very best.

Thank you, Professor, and rest in peace.

WarPhalange
18th April 07, 09:09 PM
I wouldn't even call Cho evil. People like Rumsfeld, Cheney, etc. are evil. They send out people to die for their own gain and know what is happening.

For those who don't know, Cho sent some tapes and stuff to NBC when he took a break in the massacre. Nobody knows why them, but on the tapes he rambles on and on about "you did this" and shit like some emo song that's skipping. His 23 page note (no paragraphs, talk about tl;dr) is the same way and isn't even cohesive.

Cho was mentally ill. He needed help way before this happened, and it could have been stopped, as in, he could have changed his mind of his own free will. Cheney and such would never change their minds, because even now they fly in the face of reason. His mind was just damaged.

Honestly, it's probably better that he died with the victims. He saved us a clusterfuck of a court trial and no good would have come from it anyway. If someone goes that far off the edge, it's just too late to help them.

Thinkchair
18th April 07, 09:24 PM
I wouldn't even call Cho evil. People like Rumsfeld, Cheney, etc. are evil. They send out people to die for their own gain and know what is happening.

For those who don't know, Cho sent some tapes and stuff to NBC when he took a break in the massacre. Nobody knows why them, but on the tapes he rambles on and on about "you did this" and shit like some emo song that's skipping. His 23 page note (no paragraphs, talk about tl;dr) is the same way and isn't even cohesive.

Cho was mentally ill. He needed help way before this happened, and it could have been stopped, as in, he could have changed his mind of his own free will. Cheney and such would never change their minds, because even now they fly in the face of reason. His mind was just damaged.

Honestly, it's probably better that he died with the victims. He saved us a clusterfuck of a court trial and no good would have come from it anyway. If someone goes that far off the edge, it's just too late to help them.

Don't you think it is overly simplistic to call people who you politically disagree with evil? I happen to agree with you on the war. But I do not think that Cheney and Bush are evil.

I think in the case of Cho, evil is an appropriate term. I am sure he suffered from mental illness, but I am not sure that means he is not morally cuplable. I have to admit a part of me feels bad for the guy watching that tape. But at the end of the day over thirty young people are dead because of him.

DAYoung
18th April 07, 09:39 PM
I wouldn't even call Cho evil. People like Rumsfeld, Cheney, etc. are evil. They send out people to die for their own gain and know what is happening.

For those who don't know, Cho sent some tapes and stuff to NBC when he took a break in the massacre. Nobody knows why them, but on the tapes he rambles on and on about "you did this" and shit like some emo song that's skipping. His 23 page note (no paragraphs, talk about tl;dr) is the same way and isn't even cohesive.

Cho was mentally ill. He needed help way before this happened, and it could have been stopped, as in, he could have changed his mind of his own free will. Cheney and such would never change their minds, because even now they fly in the face of reason. His mind was just damaged.

Honestly, it's probably better that he died with the victims. He saved us a clusterfuck of a court trial and no good would have come from it anyway. If someone goes that far off the edge, it's just too late to help them.

I think mass murder exemplifies evil. Mental illness is beside the point.

WarPhalange
18th April 07, 09:39 PM
Don't you think it is overly simplistic to call people who you politically disagree with evil? I happen to agree with you on the war. But I do not think that Cheney and Bush are evil.

To that I respond with:

http://www.toothpastefordinner.com/121606/found-to-do-list.gif


I think in the case of Cho, evil is an appropriate term. I am sure he suffered from mental illness, but I am not sure that means he is not morally cuplable. I have to admit a part of me feels bad for the guy watching that tape. But at the end of the day over thirty young people are dead because of him.

By that logic hurricanes and earthquakes are evil.

Evil has to be deliberate. He wanted to hurt people for percieved injustices against him, but never said who did it or what they did. He was delusionial.

The closest thing I can compare this to is a rabid dog. You can't call a rabid dog evil. It has uncontrolled rage, but really, does it even know what it's doing? That's the kind of state this guy was in.

frumpleswift
18th April 07, 09:43 PM
Don't you think it is overly simplistic to call people who you politically disagree with evil? I happen to agree with you on the war. But I do not think that Cheney and Bush are evil.

I think Cheney and Bush are evil because they are so contemptuous of the "common" man. They play their games and destroy people's lives without caring, or truly seeming to understand what they are doing. However, they, unlike Cho, do not have a mental illness to blame for their lack of moral compass. They are just greedy, selfish, loathsome people, seeking to further their own agendas.

Unless they are true believers...fanatics...which makes them worse than evil in some ways.


I think in the case of Cho, evil is an appropriate term. I am sure he suffered from mental illness, but I am not sure that means he is not morally cuplable. I have to admit a part of me feels bad for the guy watching that tape. But at the end of the day over thirty young people are dead because of him.

The bitch of it is, Cho was both morally culpable and a very sick person.

He was sick, that doesn't excuse murder. If you have HIV you have a moral responsibility to inform your partner, and take safety percautions before engaging in risky behaviors.

If you are mentally ill, you need to seek treatment.

After the murders, I doubt he could ever have been saved, but if his illness had been treated appropriately in the first place maybe all of this could have been avoided.

I am not saying that Cho should not be burned in efigee for what he did, but the media response to his mental illness is not going to help our society accept and better treat his kind of disease. It will just lead to more fear, shame, and knee jerk reactions.

DAYoung
18th April 07, 09:50 PM
Evil has to be deliberate. He wanted to hurt people for perceived injustices against him, but never said who did it or what they did. He was delusional.

Plenty of people are delusional. Plenty of people perceive injustices against them. Only some of them shoot unarmed students and teachers in cold blood.

This exemplifies evil perfectly.

frumpleswift
18th April 07, 09:55 PM
Plenty of people are delusional. Plenty of people perceive injustices against them. Only some of them shoot unarmed students and teachers in cold blood.

This exemplifies evil perfectly.

I agree with you that Cho is/was evil.

However, your point brings to mind an ongoing argument that my wife and I have.

Who is more evil?

The person who murders in the heat of passion (say a person found their spouse actively engaged in adultery and killed the lovers) or the cold calculating murderer (say a person who slowly poisons their spouse for x,y,z reason)

If neither of these are evil enough, raise the stakes. The person who guns down fifteen strangers in cold blood for no "good" reason, or the person who slowly poisons people for their riches?

WarPhalange
18th April 07, 09:55 PM
He was sick, that doesn't excuse murder. If you have HIV you have a moral responsibility to inform your partner, and take safety percautions before engaging in risky behaviors.

If you are mentally ill, you need to seek treatment.

The thing is, you really don't know that you are mentally ill unless you are blatantly hallucinating or something. When you start becoming delusional, you think it's normal. You have nothing to compare your current state to, so you can't tell if you're sick or not. Nothing hurts, you're just thinking differently.


After the murders, I doubt he could ever have been saved, but if his illness had been treated appropriately in the first place maybe all of this could have been avoided.

I am not saying that Cho should not be burned in efigee for what he did, but the media response to his mental illness is not going to help our society accept and better treat his kind of disease. It will just lead to more fear, shame, and knee jerk reactions.

Agreed. People need to understand that mental illnesses happen more and more now with societies getting larger and people in essence becoming bigger and bigger loners. There is so much shit a normal person has to deal with that it's no surprise some people develop illnesses.

frumpleswift
18th April 07, 09:58 PM
The thing is, you really don't know that you are mentally ill unless you are blatantly hallucinating or something. When you start becoming delusional, you think it's normal. You have nothing to compare your current state to, so you can't tell if you're sick or not. Nothing hurts, you're just thinking differently.


Not entirely true. My sister has auditory halucinations, but she is quite aware of it when she does. To her they are annoyances. Distractions, nothing more. However, she is being treated for her illness.

Schizophrenia is another story entirely. Usually schizophrenics are only diagnosed after they try to act on the advice of the voices...


Edit:

And your other point discounts the genetic factors behind mental illness, which are not inconsiderable.

billy sol hurok
18th April 07, 09:59 PM
Plenty of people are delusional. Plenty of people perceive injustices against them. Only some of them shoot unarmed students and teachers in cold blood.

This exemplifies evil perfectly.
No, this does. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis)

"Ismail AX" exemplifies derangement. So far, anyway.

DAYoung
18th April 07, 10:16 PM
No, this does. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis)

"Ismail AX" exemplifies derangement. So far, anyway.

Yes, the Beslan killers were evil. Just looking at that site simultaneously makes me want to weep for the victims and maim their killers.

But I digress...

We might distinguish between evil deeds (what Cho did) and evil doers (the Beslan killers) but I'm not sure it's helpful. Evil men do evil deeds.

WarPhalange
18th April 07, 10:18 PM
Not entirely true. My sister has auditory halucinations, but she is quite aware of it when she does. To her they are annoyances. Distractions, nothing more. However, she is being treated for her illness.

"Unless you are blatantly hallucinating". When you hear something that shouldn't be there, you can easily say "hey... something's wrong."

When you say "hi" to someone and they don't reply because they either didn't hear you or were spacing out or something, and you think it's because they hate you, then how are you to tell that you are wrong? The only way to check whether or not you're wrong is to ask why that person didn't respond. Of course, his/her reply could be a lie... so when it comes down to it like that, it's hard to recognize your own illness.


Schizophrenia is another story entirely. Usually schizophrenics are only diagnosed after they try to act on the advice of the voices...

Don't know much about it. My friend claims he is a schizophrenic, and he went to see a psychiatrist about it. Glad he did. A lot of people are either afraid to go talk to a doctor or too proud to do it.



Edit:

And your other point discounts the genetic factors behind mental illness, which are not inconsiderable.

Of course. Sometimes things are beyond your control. If you are born predisposed to mental illnesses, that's even harder. Although I still think most of them are treatable.

Gezere
18th April 07, 10:25 PM
Chis Rock said it best a long time ago:
juLQBeZXmPU
So true. When I was in Germany it was a BITCH to get ammo. Guns were not that hard, just a mountain of paperwork, but ammo took divine intervention.

Gezere
18th April 07, 10:29 PM
As for a side issue, I see that Mr. Jones has been un-permabanned, and relegated down to a one week banning.

Everyone remember to welcome him back with a friendly deluge of negative rep, and a resounding ass beating.
I did it. For reasons that Bullshido, and Sociocide, were founded upon. Something we have been getting away from.

Osiris
18th April 07, 10:42 PM
We're working to turn down the nazi.

Dagon Akujin
19th April 07, 12:08 AM
I would just like to point out that I was the first one to notice Mr. Jones' duchebaggery and immaturity. *flexes _ing _un muscles* Nobody thought it was warrented at the time. I'd like to now point out that I'm psychic.

Mr Jones is 17, and a liar who makes some pretty assinine claims about himself. (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=903596&postcount=118)

Wait. _ing _un muscles?

Dagon :lame:

Stick
19th April 07, 12:31 AM
We're working to turn down the nazi.

Now I'm not only a sensitive twit but also a nazi?

/cries like a sensitive twit, rallies like a nazi

DAYoung
19th April 07, 12:44 AM
We're working to turn down the nazi.

Nazi?

Pfft.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/PMRC.jpg

AAAhmed46
19th April 07, 12:55 AM
Don't you think it is overly simplistic to call people who you politically disagree with evil? I happen to agree with you on the war. But I do not think that Cheney and Bush are evil.

I think in the case of Cho, evil is an appropriate term. I am sure he suffered from mental illness, but I am not sure that means he is not morally cuplable. I have to admit a part of me feels bad for the guy watching that tape. But at the end of the day over thirty young people are dead because of him.


That fucking texan who went nuts and killed all those people in the tower: he was mentally ill, if you read up his biography, he even sensed something was wrong and sought help, but no one took it seriously. So then people died.

Same with this dude, lots of tell tale signs, they should have caught on.


If he wasn't in control of his actions, is it he that is at fault? really?

nihilist
19th April 07, 01:01 AM
The newest videos that Cho sent in to the media are particularly disturbing.

The paralells to Columbine are too close for comfort.

GuiltySpark
19th April 07, 02:46 AM
Like posters making asshole-ish look at me comments, this guy and guys like him want attention.They think they are the first ones to get picked on by bullies, have a GF cheat on them, not hve enough cash to make it through school, watch a girl flirt through grades, have their revolutionary ideas shit canned by the teacher etc..There is something in their life that upsets them and instead of taking it and redirecting the bullshit into something positive, they throw a fit. I see it like a child in a store throwing a tantrum. They want everyone around them to see how pissed off they are.Combined with that is a huge lack of respect for life, and being socially inept.Kids are fucked up. They don't know how to see something disturbing and say wow, thats really sad. That upsets me.Instead they laugh about it or make stupid jokes. You see it at the movie theaters when a graphic scene comes on and some moron forces himself to laugh so other people see him as thinking its funny for some reason. Or, on forums like this when someone bad hapens they can't say wow thats bad, they make stupid jokes and commets.

Thinkchair
19th April 07, 05:13 AM
To that I respond with:

http://www.toothpastefordinner.com/121606/found-to-do-list.gif



By that logic hurricanes and earthquakes are evil.

Evil has to be deliberate. He wanted to hurt people for percieved injustices against him, but never said who did it or what they did. He was delusionial.

The closest thing I can compare this to is a rabid dog. You can't call a rabid dog evil. It has uncontrolled rage, but really, does it even know what it's doing? That's the kind of state this guy was in.

But it was deliberate. He may have been mentally ill, but he still decided to kill people. Like Dayoung pointed out, lots of people are mentally ill, but they dont all shoot people. He still had enough awareness to know that he was killing people.

emboesso
19th April 07, 06:15 AM
Harry Chapin has been dead for more than 25 years so some of you guys may not know him. But he did an extraordinary song about the Austin Tower shooter called "Sniper". It is sort of a pyschological study/docudrama in a song.

It is amazing.

You can find the MP3 around somewhere on the web, like Limewire.

WarPhalange
19th April 07, 12:29 PM
But it was deliberate. He may have been mentally ill, but he still decided to kill people. Like Dayoung pointed out, lots of people are mentally ill, but they dont all shoot people. He still had enough awareness to know that he was killing people.

Duh. There are different types of mental illnesses. Some people comit suicide, some people just have no idea what is going on. He believed that people did something to him and he needed vengeance. Did they? No. Who is "they"? Nobody even knows. This guy was a nut case. To say that one mental illness makes you evil while another just makes you sick is stupid.

Fearless Ukemi
19th April 07, 12:47 PM
To that I respond with:

http://www.toothpastefordinner.com/121606/found-to-do-list.gif



By that logic hurricanes and earthquakes are evil.

Evil has to be deliberate. He wanted to hurt people for percieved injustices against him, but never said who did it or what they did. He was delusionial.

The closest thing I can compare this to is a rabid dog. You can't call a rabid dog evil. It has uncontrolled rage, but really, does it even know what it's doing? That's the kind of state this guy was in.


But hurricanes and earthquakes are evil, or so I was taught when I spent a year in Catholic/military school. Natural evil was one of the categories of evil presented to us in our morality class. Contrary to what most practicing Christians preach, God is capable of rage, jealousy, vengeance, and evil just as human beings are.

I would argue he knew damn well what he was doing as evidence of the package he sent to MSNBC and the fact that he chained the doors closed before he started the second round of killings. If he was exhibiting uncontrolled rage, the package would have been found somewhere with his belongings (if it even would have existed at all) and he probably would not have planned it out well enough to chain the doors.

I'm not arguing against him being mentally ill; that's pretty obvious, but I still think he knew what he was doing, as he did display premeditation; and that what he was doing is wrong.

WarPhalange
19th April 07, 12:52 PM
Mentally ill doesn't mean you can't think. It just means your mind is warped. How hard is that to understand? Someone who is mentally ill can close their bank accounts, cancel their credit cards, pay their debts, and sell the furniture in their home because they want to commit suicide and want to "do it right". He's still mentally ill.

nihilist
19th April 07, 12:58 PM
Mom always said evil is as evil does.

Fearless Ukemi
19th April 07, 01:04 PM
So true. When I was in Germany it was a BITCH to get ammo. Guns were not that hard, just a mountain of paperwork, but ammo took divine intervention.


Chris Rock's idea sounds good on paper, but how hard is it to make your own ammo or find someone who can? The materials it takes to create bullets are pretty cheap and readily available.

Shu2jack
19th April 07, 01:04 PM
He is a fucking tool as well.

"You made me do it."

"Blood is on your hands"

Fuck him.

He decrys all the rich kids and their stupid shit, but the irony is that he was what he despised. Another whiney shit with no sense of personal responsiblity. I don't care if he was "mentally ill".

ironlurker
19th April 07, 01:44 PM
Emboesso mentioned the Texas Tower incident.

I heard people debating whether this VTech incident was the one with the greatest number of casualties, and I guess it's actually not. Not downplaying it in any way whatsoever, but if you're interested in another really fucked up story you can read about the Bath School "disaster".

I had never heard of this before the VTech rampage, I think it kind of makes the point that psychos running loose/open society is more of the issue then guns per se.


The Bath School disaster is the name given to three bombings in Bath Township, Michigan, USA, on May 18, 1927, which killed 45 people and injured 58. Most of the victims were children in second to sixth grades attending the Bath Consolidated School. Their deaths constitute the deadliest act of mass murder in a school in U.S. history. The perpetrator was school board member Andrew Kehoe, who was upset by a property tax that had been levied to fund the construction of the school building. He blamed the additional tax for financial hardships which led to foreclosure proceedings against his farm. These events apparently provoked Kehoe to plan his attack.


On the morning of May 18, Kehoe first killed his wife and then set his farm buildings on fire. As fire fighters arrived at the farm, an explosion devastated the north wing of the school building, killing many of the people inside. Kehoe used a detonator to ignite dynamite and hundreds of pounds of pyrotol which he had secretly planted inside the school over the course of many months. As rescuers started gathering at the school, Kehoe drove up, stopped, and detonated a bomb inside his shrapnel-filled vehicle, killing himself and the school superintendent, and killing and injuring several others. During the rescue efforts, searchers discovered an additional 500 pounds (230 kg) of unexploded dynamite and pyrotol planted throughout the basement of the school's south wing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Neildo
19th April 07, 01:44 PM
Self-loather, eh. Didn't see that coming. *eyeroll*

edit: wow ironlurker, that is one crazy story. i had never heard about that before.

WarPhalange
19th April 07, 01:54 PM
Nobody is saying it's somehow our fault for him being insane. But to place full blame on someone who is clearly delusional is retarded. It's like trying to punish a 5 year old after he spills some juice.

Neildo
19th April 07, 02:00 PM
I've seen people do that, Punish their kids for something that was their fault. I hate those people.

I wonder, where the fuck is this dude's parents right now? I haven't seen them on CNN yet.

WarPhalange
19th April 07, 02:16 PM
I hope you were joking. Just in case you're not, a 5 year old hardly has the motor skills to do anything correctly.

Shu2jack
19th April 07, 02:35 PM
I hope you were joking. Just in case you're not, a 5 year old hardly has the motor skills to do anything correctly.

They can do TKD.

Neildo
19th April 07, 02:39 PM
I'm not. People suck.

ironlurker
19th April 07, 02:51 PM
edit: wow ironlurker, that is one crazy story. i had never heard about that before.
Yeah I was pretty shocked by it too, plus by the fact I had never heard it.
I think the well-known saying that if someone is willing to die (nevermind not care about getting caught) they're much harder to stop is basically true.
When you have such as open society (i.e. as opposed to North Korea) you're also that much more vulnerable.
Although it's depressing to say, I think we're lucky more shit like this hasn't happened. If more does, we will end up, as I heard people say discussing VTech, like Israel.


Over the years, the Israelis have developed a sophisticated security system to protect enclosed shopping centers. The cornerstone of the Israeli strategy is to deny a bomber entrance to the mall by creating layers of defenses from paramilitary sentries to watchmen trained to recognize the behavior patterns of people about to blow themselves up. http://www.realestatejournal.com/propertyreport/retail/20050809-block.html

Guards, dogs and metal detectors everywhere? It could happen. The article above discusses how behavioral profiling is actually the most effective way to spot terrorists (and I'd think nuts like Cho too), but I'm going to be pessimistic again and say that requires a degree of training that I question if every school, mall, and college is going to spend money on. Plus, in the US there will always be claims that behavioral profiling is unfair and discriminating against somone, even if race isn't involved at all.

"I came into the student union and I was mumbling and sweating because of my meds, and this guy tries to take my duffel bag away from me and I didn't know he was plainclothes and he pushed me hurt hurt lawsuit plz"

Steve
19th April 07, 03:00 PM
I wonder, where the fuck is this dude's parents right now? I haven't seen them on CNN yet.

Cho's Parents Hospitalized After Campus Massacre

The parents of Cho Seung-hi were taken to hospital in shock, according to a Korean media report. However, they had not attempted suicide, contrary to other stories in that country.

Korea's Yonhap news agency reported that Cho's parents, who ran a dry cleaning shop in Centreville, Virginia, had been taken to hospital after learning of ther son's killing rampage. Speculation earlier filtered through Korean media sources that Cho's parents had attempted suicide.

The Korea Herald, quoting Radio Korea in Los Angeles, reported that Cho's father tried to slash his wrists. His mother had reportedly swallowed a toxic drug. However, those reports are incorrect.

Cho was a permanent resident of the United States. He moved to the U.S. with his parents in 1992. His sister is a graduate of Princeton University. Her whereabouts are unknown.

http://ktla.trb.com/news/ktla-chosparents,0,4860937.story?coll=ktla-news-2

Neildo
19th April 07, 03:02 PM
When i was in the philippines, muslim extremists blew up 4 bombs killing 22 people in metro manila. Even before that, they had security checkpoints at the entrances to a lot of public buildings with guards who search your bags for ordinance. You can train and plan and plan, but some dedicated motherfucker is still going to ruin some shit when he gets pissed off.

Gezere
19th April 07, 03:22 PM
Chris Rock's idea sounds good on paper, but how hard is it to make your own ammo or find someone who can? The materials it takes to create bullets are pretty cheap and readily available.
Some components are and some aren't. The basics, such as brass, primer, lead, etc. can be cheap. But the a reloader can run a couple hundred to a thousand.

Still this brings up the delima. The law biding citizens will go about getting things in a proper manner. The ones up to no good will find a way to get what they want regardless what laws and controls are in place. Even in places with stricter gun control like the UK and Japan you still have gun violence.

ironlurker
19th April 07, 03:36 PM
I think survivalist types in the US who are more then prepared to go apeshit over much stricter gun laws are big into making ammunition, even if it's inefficient, etc. If you're sitting in your bunker (or that fortified house the tax-protester up in NH has) it gives you something to do. Some will even take the next step. I just googled "home-made guns" and there's a billion pages, some of them- interestingly enough- by people in the UK. Didn't the Viet Cong make guns or replacement parts out of bicycles?
Obviously there's a big problem with availibility, but as Neildo said if someone decides to go bezerk they basically can. I wonder how much our society will get screwed up in the process.

AAAhmed46
19th April 07, 03:39 PM
Even in places with stricter gun control like the UK and Japan you still have gun violence.
_________

Hell in canada, people get shot all the time, our gun laws don't do shit.

GuiltySpark
19th April 07, 03:52 PM
Hell in canada, people get shot all the time, our gun laws don't do shit.Ottawa, (countries capital for ignortant folk), just had their 3rd or 4th murder of the year. I wonder how that compares to Washington DC?When I was out in alberta last year I found the amount of violence (assaults robbings etc..) were 10 times more than what I'd read about here in Ontario. Weird eh? A considerable amount of it seemed related to the first nations.I don't really see a requirement for civilians to have automatic weapons, I definatly think it should be difficult to buy weapons but I also realise if someone wants a weapon gon control won't be much of an obsticle.

Zendetta
19th April 07, 03:54 PM
Even in places with stricter gun control like the UK and Japan you still have gun violence.

As you probably saw, the Mayor of Nagasaki got capped by a Gangster at close range the other day.

elipson
19th April 07, 04:02 PM
Edmonton and other big cities are much worse than rural Canada. A large portion of Canadian population are in low per capita densities. I'm willing to bet there is a correlation to gun violence and population densities. Less organized crime and gangs (more shotgun weddings).

you can be crazy AND evil.

I couldnt help but think of Cho parents when I heard some talking head call him a looser. His parents are grieving too, and they likely didn't do anything to deserve this.

Thinkchair
19th April 07, 04:09 PM
Duh. There are different types of mental illnesses. Some people comit suicide, some people just have no idea what is going on. He believed that people did something to him and he needed vengeance. Did they? No. Who is "they"? Nobody even knows. This guy was a nut case. To say that one mental illness makes you evil while another just makes you sick is stupid.

Yes, but even if the people did in fact do something to him, that would still not justify his actions. I don't take issue with him feeling like a victim, I take issue with him deciding to kill over thirty people because of it. I would ask you, if he is mentally ill, is he no longer responsible for anything he does? I would argue that he knew what he was doing, and that it would result in people being killed. Even on the tape of him ranting, it is clear he understands the gravity of the situation. He just thinks that he is in the right. But he does not get to decide what is good or bad. We do. What he did, was evil.

Gezere
19th April 07, 04:13 PM
As you probably saw, the Mayor of Nagasaki got capped by a Gangster at close range the other day.
Yep. Thats why I made sure to mention Japan. Also while I was there an official got hacked up with a katana. Which basically goes to show that if someone wants to run amok he will find a means to do so.

billy sol hurok
19th April 07, 05:49 PM
Although it's depressing to say, I think we're lucky more shit like this hasn't happened. If more does, we will end up, as I heard people say discussing VTech, like Israel.

We've already begun, though not in the way you were referencing.

It started on Flight 93, when people realized that they were dealing with savages, that there was no bargaining to be done, that cooperating would only bring them a passive death, and that they might as well die fighting.

Which is why an elderly Israeli was willing to take the initiative and sacrifice his life for his students. He hadn't even lived in Israel all that long. Still, he'd had a long acquaintence with evil before Begin managed to spring him from Romania.

In a way, it's fitting that he gave his life on Holocaust Remembrance Day. To me, "Never Again" doesn't mean that the world won't stand idly by the next time -- of course it has, and continues to do so. No, it means that you don't just file on board the cattle car, you don't just stay in your seat because the Arabs say that no one's gonna get hurt, you don't just hope that the deranged gunman will pass by your classroom.

I'm not blaming the kids for failing to bumrush the shooter. They'd been too sheltered from evil to respond in a timely fashion. But we're losing that innocence, bit by bit, for better and for worse.

Edit: I seem to recall a couple students who also barred a classroom door, one of whom took a bullet as well (though not fatally).

frumpleswift
19th April 07, 06:03 PM
Edmonton and other big cities are much worse than rural Canada. A large portion of Canadian population are in low per capita densities. I'm willing to bet there is a correlation to gun violence and population densities. Less organized crime and gangs (more shotgun weddings).

you can be crazy AND evil.

I couldnt help but think of Cho parents when I heard some talking head call him a looser. His parents are grieving too, and they likely didn't do anything to deserve this.

New York has the 49th highest murder rate, though it has the highest population density in the U.S.

San Francisco and LA both have lower murder rates than Houston or Dallas, but significantly higher population densities. [link] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Cities_by_Crime_Rate)

ironlurker
19th April 07, 10:42 PM
The brooding silence of Cho Seung-hui was so impenetrable it disturbed his family even when he was a boy growing up in South Korea, relatives of the Virginia killer told the Guardian today.

His grandfather feared Cho, at eight, might be mute; the boy's great aunt worried that he had mental problems. And his mother, Kim Hyang-im, spent most of her time in church praying for him to snap out of his unhealthy taciturnity.

"She was heartbroken. It was always her biggest worry when she called home," said the mother's aunt, Kim Yang-soon. "After they moved to America, she hoped his silences would ease as he grew older. But in fact, they got worse."

The poor but hard-working family had a difficult beginning. Cho's mother was forced into an arranged marriage with his father, Sung-tae, who was 10 years older and from a very different background. She was from a well-educated family of North Korean landowners, who had been forced to flee without possessions during the Korean war; he was from a poor family in the south, but had made enough money to marry by working in Saudi Arabia for 10 years on construction sites and oil fields.

As Hyang-im was 29 - a late age for a woman to find a husband in South Korea
[lol] - her father told her she had to accept the proposal. "She didn't want to marry, but she gave in," said Yong-soon. "Her husband was not fit for her. But she always followed and obeyed him. She never fought him, though sometimes I wish she had done." No one in the family recalls any violent behaviour from Cho or his parents that might have hinted at the carnage to come.

But they were unnerved by his sullenness. "My grandson was shy even as a little boy and he would never run to me like my other grandchildren," his maternal grandfather, Kim HyongShik, told the Hankyeoreh Daily. "The boy was so different from his super-intelligent older sister. His extreme shyness worried his parents. I thought he might be deaf and dumb."

Schoolmates interviewed by local media said they remembered Cho as quiet and nondescript. His former teacher, Noh Yong-gil, has no recollection of him.

But the father doted on his son and daughter. "He lived for his children. He would have done anything for them," the grandfather recalled. "But now this has happened. It's as if everything they've done, the reason for their whole existence has been for nothing. It's as if they've not lived at all."

The family moved to the US in 1992. It did not go smoothly. During their eight-year wait for a visa, they became increasingly short of money, selling their second-hand shop and their home to make ends meet.

They had spent the night before their flight with the mother's family, who live in a wooden hut in the middle of a field of cabbages, spring onions and horseradishes. "They were very happy to finally be going. They thought they were off to a better life," said Yang-soon.

It was only the second time the grandparents had seen their grandson. "He would not talk even when I called to him. He was so quiet that I remarked that he must have a very gentle nature," Yang-soon said. "But his mother told me he was too quiet. Soon after they got to America, he was diagnosed as being clinically withdrawn. It amazes me that he ever made it into university. I guess he must have had some mental problems from birth."

Cho's family worked hard to make a success of their life in the US. His father spent hours in the laundry, earning enough money for his children's education. His mother supplemented their income with part-time employment as a waitress at a cafeteria. Her spare time was devoted to the Korean church in Centreville, where she implored the pastor to help her son. According to the Joong-ang Daily, she always prayed that her boy could become more outgoing.

When Cho started college, at Virginia Tech, his mother took his dormitory mates to one side to explain about her son's unusual character and implored them to help.

"She was worried that he spent all his time in his room, lost in a world of video games," the paper quoted the pastor as saying. "[Cho] came to bible studies for a couple of years, but rarely spoke and never got along with the other youths . . .
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/134755.html

I was wondering when the 24/7 time spent in church was going to come out.
Korean protestant churches can be very, very, very intense, I don't know enough about the culture to understand why but from what I've seen the cult line can get very blurry (he may have attended the "Global Light Mission" or what's described as a "conservative" Korean Presbyterian church).

I'm not saying this in any way -caused- what happened, but you can't pray away paranoid schizophrenia or whatever this guy has.
There's been some reports claiming he was autistic, or had asperger's (yes spectrum I know) but people I know who work with such kids claim that something like this is impossible for them, given the forethought, planning, organization and deception involved.
We had a kid up here in MA who stabbed another kid in school and excitedly wanted to help the cops take pictures of the crime scene- that was aspergers. Maybe Judah would have an opinion here since I think he's a psych guy.

Religious, let's say, naivete + culture making mental health a no-go =bad situation. This is a great study about the cultural side:
http://psychservices.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/53/9/1125

nihilist
19th April 07, 10:48 PM
If guns were completely outlawed there wouldn't be any way to get illegal weaponry because our borders are so super tight.

Zendetta
19th April 07, 10:53 PM
lol - good one!


I love gunz, but despise the NRA for their racist roots and currently krazee ideas.

Screening for terminal weirdness seems like a reasonable requirement for ownership.

DerAuslander108
19th April 07, 11:20 PM
I was wondering when the 24/7 time spent in church was going to come out.
Korean protestant churches can be very, very, very intense, I don't know enough about the culture to understand why but from what I've seen the cult line can get very blurry (he may have attended the "Global Light Mission" or what's described as a "conservative" Korean Presbyterian church).

Be real careful here.

I live in the NOVA/MD area. I've attended Korean churches here. The Korean American communitee here (and overall the Asian American communitee) is one where if you don't know someone personally, you know someone who does. It is a communitee that is reeling with the aftershock of this.

Everyone...I mean everyone...I know has had random round eyes come up to them with comments such as "did you know him?", "are you related to this kid?", etc...

I had a date Tuesday night with a young lady. We had made the date Sunday, before the shootings. On the way to the restaurant Tuesday night, she confided that if she had not been with me, she would not have left the house.

We have already seen one local Asian American, who wasn't even Korean, fingered as the shooter. It was a rumor that started on the Internet, and then blew so out of proportion that it was covered on FOX and CNN.

So I'd be careful about the suppositions you make about the Korean American communitee or Korean churches in state that you don't live in, especially when many of those churches are now raising money to donate to various VT charities.

With all the attention to this issue, the words you say here may not stay confined to this forum as others pick up on supposition and take it as fact...and then spread it on.

And before anyone asks, no I did not know him.

nihilist
19th April 07, 11:24 PM
Anyone that asks a question as stupid as that should be deported.

DerAuslander108
19th April 07, 11:29 PM
While I don't see any racist backlash on a grand scale, I am amazed at some of the things I have heard come out of the mouths of otherwise rational people...people who would never think to make a racial comment about this shooting if he had been black...

But hey, it's some crazy chink, so all bets are off, right?

AAAhmed46
19th April 07, 11:34 PM
Ottawa, (countries capital for ignortant folk), just had their 3rd or 4th murder of the year. I wonder how that compares to Washington DC?When I was out in alberta last year I found the amount of violence (assaults robbings etc..) were 10 times more than what I'd read about here in Ontario. Weird eh? A considerable amount of it seemed related to the first nations.I don't really see a requirement for civilians to have automatic weapons, I definatly think it should be difficult to buy weapons but I also realise if someone wants a weapon gon control won't be much of an obsticle.

I havent kept count in edmonton.

But alot of murders don't get reported. In edmonton.

It makes the news if there is some mystery to it, or particularly horrible.

Edmonton is smaller then Ottawa.


Im positive the same thing happens in Ottawa.

Judah Maccabee
19th April 07, 11:35 PM
There's been some reports claiming he was autistic, or had asperger's (yes spectrum I know) but people I know who work with such kids claim that something like this is impossible for them, given the forethought, planning, organization and deception involved.
We had a kid up here in MA who stabbed another kid in school and excitedly wanted to help the cops take pictures of the crime scene- that was aspergers. Maybe Judah would have an opinion here since I think he's a psych guy.

There's definite links between aggressive actions and autistic spectrum disorders, evidenced both by my experience and by the evidence. It comes from a bunch of sources, depending on the nature of the autist. For instance, I deal with a lot of aggression because the resident feels like they aren't being understood, or they have a problem that they can't express, and they're frustrated to the point of lashing out. Usually, after we've been struck by a resident, the first thing we do is check them for wounds and injuries, because if you're non-verbal and mentally retarded, how do you tell someone you sprained your toe? Usually, the actions are in-the-moment occurrences rather than planned & premeditated actions of that sort.

I haven't heard of any definitive link between premeditated violence and ASD, but I suppose it's possible for high-functioning autists. It definitely wouldn't be possibly for the vast majority of people with autism because 3/4 people with the condition can't live on their own.

Dagon Akujin
19th April 07, 11:49 PM
While I don't see any racist backlash on a grand scale, I am amazed at some of the things I have heard come out of the mouths of otherwise rational people...people who would never think to make a racial comment about this shooting if he had been black...

But hey, it's some crazy chink, so all bets are off, right?

A bunch of my students were saying that the killer was "bleeding sweet 'n sour sauce". When I said "That's an awfully racist statement" the response from a number of kids was "How can it be racist?" "He was a chink" and "Arn't chinks made out of chinese food?" The Chinese-American girl in the class and I both had the same "Are the people in this school really this stupid/racist/insensitive/fucktarded" look on our faces.

Then, of course, there was the obligatory, "I can't be racist. I'm black. They're Chinese." :lame:

Dagon

DerAuslander108
20th April 07, 12:04 AM
A bunch of my students were saying that the killer was "bleeding sweet 'n sour sauce". When I said "That's an awfully racist statement" the response from a number of kids was "How can it be racist?" "He was a chink" and "Arn't chinks made out of chinese food?" The Chinese-American girl in the class and I both had the same "Are the people in this school really this stupid/racist/insensitive/fucktarded" look on our faces.

Then, of course, there was the obligatory, "I can't be racist. I'm black. They're Chinese." :lame:

Dagon

Fucktarded...that's the only possible word for it. Can't even take the time to be racist in the correct manner.

Flip it around...I was out at Castle Bay (local Irish pub) with the Joss girls (local sushi cafe) a couple years back. There was a great band playing Irish drinking songs. Minjung turns and looks at me, big smile and all excited.

Min: This music reminds me of Braveheart!
Me: That's Scottish. This is Irish.
Min: Oh, it's all the same thing!

Anyway, DA, you in town this weekend?

Dagon Akujin
20th April 07, 12:13 AM
Yup. I'm in town and I need to show you the video clip that I tried to send to you and 30 other people last Saturday night. Stupid phone. Let's just say that it includes my ex-girlfriend, that other ex-girl, and my friends hot blonde girlfriend. It also includes chicks kissing.

Dagon

DerAuslander108
20th April 07, 12:22 AM
Great. How about sushi Saturday evening?

Steve
20th April 07, 12:24 AM
I was wondering when the 24/7 time spent in church was going to come out. Korean protestant churches can be very, very, very intense, I don't know enough about the culture to understand why but from what I've seen the cult line can get very blurry (he may have attended the "Global Light Mission" or what's described as a "conservative" Korean Presbyterian church).

I'm not saying this in any way -caused- what happened, but you can't pray away paranoid schizophrenia or whatever this guy has.
There's been some reports claiming he was autistic, or had asperger's (yes spectrum I know) but people I know who work with such kids claim that something like this is impossible for them, given the forethought, planning, organization and deception involved.
We had a kid up here in MA who stabbed another kid in school and excitedly wanted to help the cops take pictures of the crime scene- that was aspergers. Maybe Judah would have an opinion here since I think he's a psych guy.

Religious, let's say, naivete + culture making mental health a no-go =bad situation. This is a great study about the cultural side:
http://psychservices.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/53/9/1125

Ahmed posted this video in the other thread:

DkyAaue-TAA

It's painfully obvious that his religion was the root of his motive, IMO.

For the record, I think that it was in extremely poor taste that NBC released what was contained in the package that Cho sent them.

Stick
20th April 07, 12:36 AM
Great. How about sushi Saturday evening?

I think what you mean to say is:

How about getting together on Saturday at someone's place to watch UFC 70- con Crocop- for free on Spike?

To which I must answer:

That seems like a capital idea.

Dagon Akujin
20th April 07, 12:36 AM
Great. How about sushi Saturday evening?

Of course, it has to be followed by UFC 70, which is free on Spike this Saturday. Anyone else want some sushi and fisticuffs in the NoVa/MD area?

Dagon

Stick
20th April 07, 12:37 AM
Wow, see Dagon has his brain in the right track.

WarPhalange
20th April 07, 12:37 AM
Yes, but even if the people did in fact do something to him, that would still not justify his actions. I don't take issue with him feeling like a victim, I take issue with him deciding to kill over thirty people because of it. I would ask you, if he is mentally ill, is he no longer responsible for anything he does? I would argue that he knew what he was doing, and that it would result in people being killed. Even on the tape of him ranting, it is clear he understands the gravity of the situation. He just thinks that he is in the right. But he does not get to decide what is good or bad. We do. What he did, was evil.

God damn, you're an idiot.

We didn't do shit to him as far as we know. He was DELUSIONAL. That's one of the aspects of mental illness. The fact that he thought that killing as many innocent people as possible put him in the right, because they apparently did something to him, makes him apeshit crazy.

Does that mean it wasn't his fault that those people died? Of course it does. He pulled the trigger. But does it also mean he's the same as someone like a Nazi? No, because his mind was broken. That's the whole difference here.

Seriously, do you believe that a person is only mentally ill if he doesn't understand the gravity of the situation? There are different types of mental illness. It involves thinking differently, not just being retarded or autistic. If this method of thinking involves you trying to kill people for not even doing anything to you, then guess what? You're apeshit.

How hard is this for you -- and DAY -- to understand?

Stick
20th April 07, 12:41 AM
Time to be back on topic.


Ahmed posted this video in the other thread:

snip

It's painfully obvious that his religion was the root of his motive, IMO.

I couldn't agree with that less.

You know my stance on religion of all stripes, but there's no way it was the impetus for what went down. Citing Jesus and alluding to Christianity was his way to make his actions seem that much more epic; he was an English major, he was trying his damndest to leave an opus.


For the record, I think that it was in extremely poor taste that NBC released what was contained in the package that Cho sent them.

It is unfortunate, but really anything this guy did was going to be brought before the public in this day and age.

Osiris
20th April 07, 12:47 AM
I don't think most people can understand altered states of mind very well. Being insane I don't presume I could imagine. Well, at this point I could, but previously, no.

AAAhmed46
20th April 07, 12:49 AM
Ahmed posted this video in the other thread:

DkyAaue-TAA

It's painfully obvious that his religion was the root of his motive, IMO.

For the record, I think that it was in extremely poor taste that NBC released what was contained in the package that Cho sent them.

Actually, supposedly in the rest of it he insults the fuck out of christ and christians, though im not sure.



If he is christian:


Where were the moderate majority outrage? Why dont we see the so called majority speaking out against this?

AAAhmed46
20th April 07, 12:50 AM
Plays
In 2006, Cho wrote a short, profanity-laden one-act play entitled "Richard McBeef". It is about a 13-year-old boy, John, who accuses his stepfather, Richard McBeef, of molesting him and murdering his father. John repeatedly says he will kill Richard. John, Richard, and Sue, John's mother, become involved in a major argument. The play ends with Richard, who up until this point is passive, dealing John "a deadly blow".[57]

In a second play attributed to Cho, titled "Mr. Brownstone", three 17-year-olds named John, Jane, and Joe discuss their deep hatred of their 45-year-old mathematics teacher, Mr. Brownstone, who they claim mistreated them (using the phrase 'ass-rape'). Brownstone appears and, amid volleys of profanity, cheats them out of their casino winnings.[58] The title "Mr. Brownstone" is also the name of a Guns N' Roses song[59] and one page from the play consists of lyrics from the song[60]


Reactions to writings
Edward Falco, a playwriting professor at Virginia Tech, has acknowledged that Cho wrote both plays in his class. The plays are less than 12 pages long and have several grammatical and typographical errors. Falco believed that Cho was drawn to writing because of his difficulty communicating orally. Falco said of the plays, "They're not good writing, but at least they are a form of communication."[61]

Another professor who taught Cho characterized his work as "very adolescent" and "silly", with attempts at "slapstick comedy" and "elements of violence."[62]

Classmates believed "the plays, were really morbid and grotesque."[63] Former classmate Ian MacFarlane stated, "When we read Cho's plays, it was like something out of a nightmare. The plays had really twisted, macabre violence that used weapons I wouldn't have even thought of."[64]

Steve
20th April 07, 12:50 AM
I couldn't agree with that less.

You know my stance on religion of all stripes, but there's no way it was the impetus for what went down. Citing Jesus and alluding to Christianity was his way to make his actions seem that much more epic; he was an English major, he was trying his damndest to leave an opus.

Perhaps I didn't make what I meant clear since we are in agreement. I think that he used religion as a key to start the engine of what he did, that's it (hence my use of the word 'root').

Obviously it couldn't be fueled by Christianity, "Thou shalt not kill" is a major precept.


It is unfortunate, but really anything this guy did was going to be brought before the public in this day and age.

True, but having it be brought out in the same week is kind of sickening.

ironlurker
20th April 07, 12:52 AM
Be real careful here.

Yes, I know what you're getting at. My intention wasn't to say Korean=lol obsessed with church in the sense of Irish=lol drunk. As I highlighted in the article, this guy apparently wasn't much into it anyways. My intention was to talk about what I suspected was another layer of social insulation that -despite possibly the best intentions- could have factored into the situation.


How do you solve anomie? This and similar issues of modernity become even more complex when you have a highly mobile population that is very ethnically and culturally mixed. When you have a uniform background aberrancy stands out, when you can't even find a translator to speak with someone to tell if they need services, things are more difficult.
Add to this our emphasis on personal rights and autonomy, indvidualism, even praise of eccentricity, and rights for religious and cultural groups out of the mainstream (none of which are bad in themselves) and it becomes harder to isolate and treat people who are falling through the cracks.
Everyone, this kid's relatives, his professors, the kids in his dorm, knew this kid had some serious, serious, serious issues for years. I, for one, would like to know WTF happened.
If people out there are fucking mental amoebas that make eggroll jokes they should STFU and go back to trolling life, but I'm interested in everything about this situation, and morons saying whatever racial crap shouldn't stop people from getting to the bottom of it. Hell, people were ready to condemn Islamic terrorism as soon as they heard it was a foreign student.

So, yeah, I'm wondering if religion played into it. If his mother was a Scientologist people would be fucking roasting her for being a whacko and neglecting her son. I'm not saying she did, but it bugs me -if true- that a parent with such a sick, sick and dangerous child would think prayer and spending "all their free time" volunteering for the church was the answer to it. In fact, being Korean shopowners, I doubt they even had much free time (a compliment, not an insult), which makes this stick out even more to me.

Stick
20th April 07, 12:55 AM
No, you're missing me completely, Steve; he said the words, but religion had nothing to do whatsoever with what he did. He said the words becauses he knew his audience would respond to them. Religion isn't the root of anything in this, that he was a bad writer with a clumbsy command of imagery, metaphor, and allusion is why he talked about Jesus.

AAAhmed46
20th April 07, 01:06 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7-2ura5Nbs

Yeah, this pretty much shows him insulting jesus.

So i guess religion wasn't a factor


Where is the moderate emo condemonation? Where are the so called moderate voice of moderate emo's?

ironlurker
20th April 07, 01:11 AM
No, you're missing me completely, Steve; he said the words, but religion had nothing to do whatsoever with what he did.
You have no way of knowing that it had nothing to do with what he did.
If he was Muslim and said he was being persecuted like Muhammad and wanted to die for Allah, that would be all the link anyone would need.
He said he was being crucified and persecuted like Christ and Christ was crucifying him every day or some other crazy shit.
Religious ideation was obviously taking place here, he seems to have had what used to be known as a "Christ complex"which is very dangerous.

Now, did it have to do with -his- personal experience of institutional religion, in the form of whatever church? No proof of that as yet either.


Her spare time was devoted to the Korean church in Centreville, where she implored the pastor to help her son.
Someone didn't do their job. And no, I don't mean criminal liability, but someone didn't. Was it the mother, who culturally probably thought she was doing the best she could?
I'd like to know more.

Steve
20th April 07, 01:13 AM
No, you're missing me completely, Steve; he said the words, but religion had nothing to do whatsoever with what he did. He said the words becauses he knew his audience would respond to them. Religion isn't the root of anything in this, that he was a bad writer with a clumbsy command of imagery, metaphor, and allusion is why he talked about Jesus.

So you're saying that what he sent to NBC was an attempt to insure he'd get people's attention? He avoided attention his whole life!

nihilist
20th April 07, 01:16 AM
He didn't have the guts to face anyone and that is why he used this passive aggressive bullshit method of "confronting" those who he thought had wronged him.

DAYoung
20th April 07, 01:51 AM
God damn, you're an idiot.

We didn't do shit to him as far as we know. He was DELUSIONAL. That's one of the aspects of mental illness. The fact that he thought that killing as many innocent people as possible put him in the right, because they apparently did something to him, makes him apeshit crazy.

Does that mean it wasn't his fault that those people died? Of course it does. He pulled the trigger. But does it also mean he's the same as someone like a Nazi? No, because his mind was broken. That's the whole difference here.

Seriously, do you believe that a person is only mentally ill if he doesn't understand the gravity of the situation? There are different types of mental illness. It involves thinking differently, not just being retarded or autistic. If this method of thinking involves you trying to kill people for not even doing anything to you, then guess what? You're apeshit.

How hard is this for you -- and DAY -- to understand?

What don't I understand? <----not rhetorical question

I never disputed his mental state (though I'm no expert).I said he was evil. There are plenty of insane people. He happens to be one of the insane people who are also evil.

Truculent Sheep
20th April 07, 05:11 AM
The Telegraph (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/foreign/tobyharnden/april07/psy-cho.htm) is reporting that the people who were dealing with his 'problems' should have informed the authorities so he would never have been in a position to buy a gun in the first place. It's just one cock-up after another, and heads should roll for this.

danno
20th April 07, 05:39 AM
religion was not his motivation, and he is unlike terrorists because he is insane. terrorist groups are misguided and deluded but not insane. he also has no practical political agenda, but this chap does think he is throwing a shot for the "little guy". he saw the columbine kids as champions of this cause.

however he is similar to terrorists in that he used religious language to make his actions sound more grand, righteous and brave. it's almost as if he thinks christ set a precedent for him, and that he has as good a soul as jesus himself.

Kein Haar
20th April 07, 07:03 AM
Anybody have the stats on how many of these jerks were on seratonin re-uptake inhibitors?

Judah Maccabee
20th April 07, 07:20 AM
I don't think there's enough incidents (fortunately) to draw a decent conclusion beyond SSRI's and violent actions towards others.

The far more likely link is self-harm from SSRI.

billy sol hurok
20th April 07, 07:23 AM
Anybody have the stats on how many of these jerks were on seratonin re-uptake inhibitors?

An amazingly high percentage, IIRC. Didn't feel like going there at the first offhand mention of Scientology, but yeah.

'Course, there's a lot of post hoc built into that argument -- sure lots of recent melee-types have been Prozac Nation, but that could just mean the meds weren't working well enough.

Considering how much of America is thus drugged, the number of them that take up arms is probably statistically insignificant.

GuiltySpark
20th April 07, 07:37 AM
I'm not sure how well we can sit here and say exactly what his motivation was or wasn't, or if he was insane or not.

I worked with a guy (who carried a loaded assault rifle) who was clinicially insane. Joked about having the papers to prove it. He found a loop hole in that the army couldn't kick him out because he wasn't on medication to cotnrol it/didn't need medication.
Very nice, gentle guy. (Mind you you could still tell something was off and could picture him climbing onto the roof with a rifle in a happy mood).

I don't know if this guy was insane or not. WHos going to judge that? The same people who takes a kid who misbehaves (because his parents use a TV ro raise him ) and digonose (sp?) him with ADHD and pump him full of happy pills.

This guy was just a fucked up kid. Looks to me like he knew exactly what he was doing. Is being a coward jealous of other kids and wanting to kill them to f important (at a guess) a mental illness? Sure maybe but who really cares what you label him.

Whats ironic is that a muslim will get their balls busted 6 ways from sunday for looking suspicious in the US yet this kid was CLEARLY fucked up and no one seemed to do shit.

On occasion I've seen people were looking fucked up (about 10 times less bad as this fucker) and I've
a. physically taken ammunition from them (work related obviously)
b. tricked someone into speaking to a mental heath dude by pretending i needed to speak with them and wanted someone to come with me and
c. going to metal heath people and identifing someone that has a problem and sending them after the person. Made sure they went too.

A little effort and willingness to get involved will save lives.

MaverickZ
20th April 07, 07:55 AM
He didn't have the guts to face anyone and that is why he used this passive aggressive bullshit method of "confronting" those who he thought had wronged him.
I don't have enough rep for all your posts. Either I'm going to have to become a mod or you'll have to start posting less.

As far as his religious and victimhood diatribe. He could have said that Strawberry Shortcake made him do it and he still would have carried out the same exact actions. What he said had nothing to do with anything he did. He was pandering. Look at his rants. There is not one specific in there.

Shu2jack
20th April 07, 07:56 AM
The Telegraph is reporting that the people who were dealing with his 'problems' should have informed the authorities so he would never have been in a position to buy a gun in the first place. It's just one cock-up after another, and heads should roll for this.

I think the bodies have already hit the floor.

Thinkchair
20th April 07, 08:11 AM
God damn, you're an idiot.

We didn't do shit to him as far as we know. He was DELUSIONAL. That's one of the aspects of mental illness. The fact that he thought that killing as many innocent people as possible put him in the right, because they apparently did something to him, makes him apeshit crazy.

Does that mean it wasn't his fault that those people died? Of course it does. He pulled the trigger. But does it also mean he's the same as someone like a Nazi? No, because his mind was broken. That's the whole difference here.

Seriously, do you believe that a person is only mentally ill if he doesn't understand the gravity of the situation? There are different types of mental illness. It involves thinking differently, not just being retarded or autistic. If this method of thinking involves you trying to kill people for not even doing anything to you, then guess what? You're apeshit.

How hard is this for you -- and DAY -- to understand?


Yes I Know he was delusional. You completely missed the point of my comment. I never argued that he was not mentally ill. I was just making the point that even if his delusions were not delusions (i.e. all these things he believed people were doing to him were 100% TRUE), that his actions, even then, would not be justified.

You are basically arguing that because he thought he was in the right he is not evil. I just don't by that argument. I do not see why being crazy means he cannot be evil.

DerAuslander108
20th April 07, 10:23 AM
If he is christian:


Where were the moderate majority outrage? Why dont we see the so called majority speaking out against this?

What the hell are you talking about?

DerAuslander108
20th April 07, 10:24 AM
I think what you mean to say is:

How about getting together on Saturday at someone's place to watch UFC 70- con Crocop- for free on Spike?

To which I must answer:

That seems like a capital idea.

Possible. What time is it on? I have to be in Towson by 11.

MaverickZ
20th April 07, 10:37 AM
Possible. What time is it on? I have to be in Towson by 11.
I take it then you aren't coming?

ironlurker
20th April 07, 10:59 AM
Many Campus Threats After VTech Shooting

Apr 20, 5:27 AM (ET)

SAN DIEGO (AP) - A man who allegedly threatened a school attack in Yuba City that would dwarf the Virginia Tech attacks turned himself in, ending a manhunt that prompted school districts in two cities to tighten security, authorities said . . .

In Yuba City, a 28-year-old man told a pastor Wednesday night that "he had some sort of explosive device and he was going to make the incident at Virginia Tech look mild by comparison," Sutter County Sheriff Jim Denney said.

In San Diego, a Web designer was charged with posting on his own site a bogus threat to kill 50 San Diego State University students, then alerting a TV station to try to draw publicity, the FBI said.

Cristobal Fernando Gonzalez, 32, is charged with one felony count of making a threatening communication through the Internet. He was being held on $30,000 bail.
His parents said outside the federal courthouse that he was remorseful. "I hope it doesn't ruin his future," said his mother, Diana Gomez. [lol 32 year old web designer making massacre threats for publicity? I don't think he had one]

In Commerce City, Colo., a Denver suburb about 190 miles from Columbine, a 13-year-old boy stood up in class and said he had a bomb, forcing the evacuation of Kearney Middle School and the lockdown of 13 other Adams

In Michigan, police said they arrested a former Kalamazoo Valley Community College student who posted Internet messages praising the Virginia Tech shooting. Officials closed the college's two campuses through the weekend.
The 26-year-old man "said his intent was just to evoke a response from other people," sheriff's Lt. Terry VanStreain said. "He got a response from us, I guarantee you that."

Classes at the University of Nevada, Reno, were canceled Thursday night after police received reports that a man made threats referencing the Virginia Tech shootings. Michael James Sheriff, 27, was arrested in Carson City on a probation violation related to a conviction for carrying a concealed weapon.
Officials said Sheriff sent a text message Thursday to a relative saying "the Korean is my hero." He also allegedly told another relative Wednesday that he would be unavailable for the next few days because he would be on a "mission," police said.

In Camarillo, Calif., a freshman at California State University, Channel Islands, was arrested after a fellow student reported seeing a note on her Facebook.com page that said she planned a "school shooting spree."
Alisha Salazar, 18, was booked for investigation of making criminal threats and was being held at the Ventura County Jail on $20,000 bail, authorities said.
School officials said her online message read: "Alisha Salazar is going on a ... school shooting spree! Watch out kiddies, better hide under that desk! hahaha," the statement said.

Among other arrests and school scares Thursday:
- A high school student in Federal Way, Wash., near Seattle, was arrested after authorities said he brought three loaded guns and extra ammunition.
- A 20-year-old man in Bismarck, N.D., was charged with saying on a blog that the Virginia Tech massacre was funny and that he had plans for a school shooting rampage.
- A high school student in Fort Smith, Ark., was arrested after police said he scrawled a message on a classroom desk saying he wanted to "be a hero" like Cho.
- In St. Augustine, Fla., a 14-year-old high school student was charged with threatening in an e-mail between friends to top the Virginia Tech massacre by killing 100 people, a sheriff's spokesman said.


http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070420/D8OK8FJ00.html

DerAuslander108
20th April 07, 11:02 AM
Someone didn't do their job. And no, I don't mean criminal liability, but someone didn't. Was it the mother, who culturally probably thought she was doing the best she could?
I'd like to know more.

And you should know more before you start blaming a mother who is already blaming herself and second guessing everything she ever did in this young boy's life. Before you start blaming her, you have to know exactly what was wrong with Seunghui, and what she could have done, or if those options were even available to her.

Again, you're not here, this isn't your communitte, you can sit up there nice and safe in MA talking about what you don't know, so stop with the suppositions and finger pointing. I'd be more concerned with the law enforcement and psych authorities who'd already had run-ins with Seunghui.

DerAuslander108
20th April 07, 11:05 AM
I take it then you aren't coming?

I wish I could.

With this case I'm in the middle of, I wasn't allowed time off. Had circumstances been different, I would have been, but since I wasn't immediately related...

Give my love to Will and Mei, and Brendan if you see him.

DerAuslander108
20th April 07, 11:07 AM
So you're saying that what he sent to NBC was an attempt to insure he'd get people's attention? He avoided attention his whole life!

Many who avoid attention don't fear it on it's own, they fear it when it is not on their own terms.

Truculent Sheep
20th April 07, 11:22 AM
And you should know more before you start blaming a mother who is already blaming herself and second guessing everything she ever did in this young boy's life. Before you start blaming her, you have to know exactly what was wrong with Seunghui, and what she could have done, or if those options were even available to her.

From what I've read, the mother was a victim of circumstance, and having a disturbed son was a burden in itself - imagine having to deal with everything else she's had to! (Tosser husband, moving to a foreign culture, losing everything in North Korea, raising kids etcetera.)

I'm reminded of an interview on TV with a woman (disguised of course) who had found out her brother was a notorious paedophile. She was afraid of her life, but in every other aspect, she was as normal as you could hope for. As she wept, she said she would never be quick to judge someone again. A lesson we should all learn.

MaverickZ
20th April 07, 11:30 AM
I wouldn't lay blame entirely on the officials who did not do something about Cho's mental state. They have a history of doing the proper things. A general label of "incompetent" is inaccurate in this case.

nihilist
20th April 07, 12:30 PM
It's totally the mother's fault.

If she hadn't given birth, none of this would have happened.

MaverickZ
20th April 07, 12:58 PM
SON OF A BITCH
EXCLUSIVE: Grandad's anger at uni murderer
Graham Brough In South Korea 20/04/2007

THE grandfather of Cho Seung-Hui said yesterday: "Son of a bitch. It serves him right he died with his victims."

Kim Hyang-Sik, 82, said he had a doom-laden dream of Cho's parents the night of his murderous rampage - and woke to hear the news of the massacre and his grandson's death.

He watched Cho's sick video of himself holding a gun to his head.

His sister Kim Yang-Sun, 85, who also saw it, told the Mirror that afterwards her brother was so distraught he had "gone away for a few days to calm himself down and avoid more questions".

She too repeatedly referred to the killer as "son of a bitch" or "a***hole" and said his mother Kim Hyang-Yim had problems with him from infancy.

Yang-Sun revealed the eight-year-old was diagnosed as autistic soon after his family emigrated to the US.

She said: "He was very quiet and only followed his mother and father around and when others called his name he just answered yes or no but never showed any feelings or motions.

"We started to worry that he was autistic - that was the big concern of his mother. He was even a loner as a child.

"Soon after they got to America his mother was so worried about his inability to talk she took him to hospital and he was diagnosed as autistic."

Yang-Sun spoke at her tiny one roomed shack inside a vinyl farm shelter in the Gohyang area of South Korea's capital Seoul.

The family had stayed there the night before they emigrated in 1992. Yang-Sun said Cho's mother had been reluctant to marry her older husband.

She said: "She had five brothers and sisters and she was the second eldest child. She took care of them after she graduated from high school, which meant a lot of self-sacrifice.

"Hyang-Yim was a full-time house person on one of her parents' small farms outside Seoul. She stayed at home like that for years and was still single at home when she was 29.

"We became worried that she was spending too much time at home with her brothers and sisters and family and getting to old for a husband.

"So the family decided to force her into a blind date to find a husband. She met Cho Sung-Tae on that date. He was 10 years older at 39 and still single too. They decided to get married soon after that.

"She didn't want to but her family insisted because we thought she was getting past the right age and it would be good for her.

"Her husband was very serious and quiet and careful with money. He was not very sociable and not very friendly to his mother-in-law and father-in-law.

"After they were married he went away twice to Saudi Arabia in the 80s to try to make some money in the construction boom. He came back with about £2,000, which was enough to buy a small house in Seoul. He also ran a second-hand bookstore. His mother was living in the States on a long term visit to stay with his sister. She asked him to bring his family to live there.

"His sold the house to pay for the emigration costs and rented instead but there were lots of delays and eventually the whole process to get the permissions and organise things took eight years.

"By that time the money from the house was nearly gone. They were barely making ends meet so they had nothing to lose and had this idea of the American dream where there was a lot of money to be made."

She went on: "The reaction of my brother was that Seung-Hui was a troublemaker and it served him right that he died because he caused his mother a lot of problems. He was more worried about his daughter.

"He spoke to a few reporters to express sympathy to victims' families on behalf of our family but now he has gone away. He is 82 and lives quietly on a small farm and all this is too much for him."

Other relatives admitted Cho's parents had always been aware of his problems but had neither the time nor money for specialist help.

His uncle Chan Kim, 56, said: "He wasn't like a normal kid. We were worried about him not talking.

"Both his parents knew he had mental problems but they were poor and they couldn't send him to a special hospital in the United States.

"His mother and sister were asking his friends to help instead.

"His parents worked and did not have time to look after his condition and didn't give him special treatment.

"They had no time or money to look after his special problem even though they knew he was autistic."
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/tm_headline=we-are-glad-he-is-dead-by-cho-s-family--&method=full&objectid=18931479&siteid=89520-name_page.html

Neildo
20th April 07, 01:43 PM
Hm. Interesting.

Thanks for posting that Mav.

kobudo
20th April 07, 04:21 PM
"So the family decided to force her into a blind date to find a husband. She met Cho Sung-Tae on that date. He was 10 years older at 39 and still single too. They decided to get married soon after that.

"She didn't want to but her family insisted because we thought she was getting past the right age and it would be good for her.

Seems like the perfect conditions for marriage to me -- being forced into it by your family.

Is that a cultural thing or are all his relatives as daffy as he was, but in a non-murderous way?

Kein Haar
20th April 07, 04:46 PM
Gun Control is......

Penn and Teller know what idiz.

http://www.pistolwimp.com/media/60509/

ironlurker
20th April 07, 04:58 PM
And you should know more before you start blaming a mother who is already blaming herself and second guessing everything she ever did in this young boy's life. Before you start blaming her, you have to know exactly what was wrong with Seunghui, and what she could have done, or if those options were even available to her. [<- this is what I'm interested in]

Again, you're not here, this isn't your communitte, you can sit up there nice and safe in MA talking about what you don't know, so stop with the suppositions and finger pointing. I'd be more concerned with the law enforcement and psych authorities who'd already had run-ins with Seunghui.
I did not blame the mother. I said that within the bounds of her culture and life experience she was likely doing the best she could.

the mother, who culturally probably thought she was doing the best she could She was obviously concerned from when he was a child, and went so far as to talk to his dorm mates.

I meant what I said, I want to know more, because 32 people are dead from the acts of someone who was blatantly sick and anti-social for decades.

I respect what you're saying, and I'm sorry about crazy crackers that the community has to deal with. From the articles I read, there was already opposition to church construction, etc.


this isn't your communitte It's not, but I don't think the lunatics out there planning hate crimes are pondering cultural views of mental illness with an eye to prevention while they drink their beers to get them fired up.

Do conservative immigrant Korean communities have the same views towards mental illness and seeking treatment, as say, educated Jewish familes in Manhattan or Boston WASPS?

I won't even bring up the arranged marriage, consisting of being forced to marry a stranger ten years older from a different regional and socio-economic background, because this would be "finger pointing and blame" at evil Koreans, despite the fact that Hindus, Muslims, and Zoroastrians all often have arranged marriages and they're all encountering serious problems with them in the modern context.


As Hyang-im was 29 - a late age for a woman to find a husband in South Korea - her father told her she had to accept the proposal. "She didn't want to marry, but she gave in," said Yong-soon. "Her husband was not fit for her. But she always followed and obeyed him. She never fought him, though sometimes I wish she had done." http://www.buzzle.com/articles/134755.html

What should a pastor do if a member of their congregation tells them their child has cancer, or, let's use something dangerous to other people, hepatitus?


America’s gun culture is insane

The tragedy of Virginia Tech is very much an American thing and it puts the full insanity of America’s love affair with firearms in front of the world.

The sound of random gunfire, long a feature of American cities, is rare almost everywhere in Asia except the Philippines, which shares the gun fetish of its colonial master, America. Indeed, when an American moves to Asia for the first time it takes a while to realize that it is safe to walk down that long lonely road to your apartment, that chances are a stranger is not going to put a gun to your ribs and that your children do not need to fear they will be gunned down in the playground.
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/article/view.asp?aid=2874683

^This is the lead editorial from the JoonAng Daily.
Culture, as this editorial makes clear, is fair game for inquiry.
If the nuts down there, or you, can't distinguish between blaming something on someones race and looking at socio-cultural problems, I don't know what to say.

WarPhalange
20th April 07, 04:59 PM
Yes I Know he was delusional. You completely missed the point of my comment. I never argued that he was not mentally ill. I was just making the point that even if his delusions were not delusions (i.e. all these things he believed people were doing to him were 100% TRUE), that his actions, even then, would not be justified.

No, you are still a dumbshit because you are missing the point. Him thinking that he is justified even if it were true is one of the things that make him delusional.


You are basically arguing that because he thought he was in the right he is not evil. I just don't by that argument. I do not see why being crazy means he cannot be evil.

Because being evil requires you to know what the fuck you are doing. Otherwise you'd have to call a whole number of mentally retarded people evil for doing stuff like not behaving or punching people when they feel threatened, even though they are not.

ironlurker
20th April 07, 04:59 PM
Seems like the perfect conditions for marriage to me -- being forced into it by your family.

Is that a cultural thing or are all his relatives as daffy as he was, but in a non-murderous way?
oh sweet Jesus kobudo don't say that plz, questioning the desirability of a forced arranged marriage is only spreading race hatred

Shawarma
20th April 07, 05:05 PM
This thread is a nightmare. People without any kind of psychological training prattling on about "evil" and whether the mommy's to blame, and all based on fifteenth-hand knowledge gleaned from newspapers. Much disrespectness.

frumpleswift
20th April 07, 05:11 PM
This thread is a nightmare. People without any kind of psychological training prattling on about "evil" and whether the mommy's to blame, and all based on fifteenth-hand knowledge gleaned from newspapers. Much disrespectness.

My mom is a social worker, my sister is VERY type II bipolar, one grandmother was diagnosed with everything in the DSM IV (which my mom has a copy of on her bedstand, and I used to read when living at home).

I'm not a shrink, but I have much more practical experience with it that your average jo.

However, I think the kid was both sick and evil, and I think the media coverage of his illness does a huge disservice to the mentally ill community. How do you destigmatize mental disease when the media has a field day with this kind of thing.

ironlurker
20th April 07, 05:12 PM
This thread is a nightmare. People without any kind of psychological training prattling on about "evil" and whether the mommy's to blame, and all based on fifteenth-hand knowledge gleaned from newspapers. Much disrespectness.

Let's STFU about "blaming the mother" because no one has.

Shawarma
20th April 07, 05:13 PM
Let's STFU period would be a better idea.

ironlurker
20th April 07, 05:15 PM
Let's STFU period would be a better idea.
Let's say tl;dr before our comments


How do you destigmatize mental disease when the media has a field day with this kind of thing.
Don't ask about issues of community outreach or how to work against cultural stigmatization because that's racist

frumpleswift
20th April 07, 05:18 PM
Let's say tl;dr before our comments


Don't ask about issues of community outreach or how to work against cultural stigmatization because that's racist

mental illness is a culture?

ironlurker
20th April 07, 05:30 PM
mental illness is a culture?
No, many cultures place a stigma on the mentally ill, or the seeking of treatment. Sometimes because it's considered a personal weakness, sometimes it's considered a birth defect that implies shame and sin on the part of the parents, sometimes its somaticized, sometimes it's a punishment from God or the gods.

For example, in the study I quoted earlier, the researchers found that their Korean subjects responded very positively to psychoeducation, for example, giving a schizophrenic a course on the diagnosis and treatment of schizophrenia as if it were almost an academic class. They were able to surmount the cultural disincentives to treatment by playing on what they cited as a respect for learning and the academic environment.

DAYoung
20th April 07, 06:13 PM
Because being evil requires you to know what the fuck you are doing. Otherwise you'd have to call a whole number of mentally retarded people evil for doing stuff like not behaving or punching people when they feel threatened, even though they are not.

I don't think so. Punching someone isn't evil. Even hitting someone with a brick isn't necessarily evil.

But organising weapons, ammunition, shooting 32 people, and sending videos, pictures and letter to NBC?

Evil. If Cho isn't evil, then 'evil' no longer has meaning.

ironlurker
20th April 07, 06:15 PM
This was the study I was referring to.


Effects of Psychoeducation for Korean Americans With Chronic Mental Illness

Sun-Kyung Shin, M.S.W., Ph.D. and Ellen P. Lukens, M.S.W., Ph.D. http://www.psychservices.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/53/9/1125

These are others:


Mental Health Beliefs and Help Seeking Behaviors of Korean American Parents of Adult Children with Schizophrenia

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3919/is_200507/ai_n14825642


Schizophrenia in College Students in Korea: A Qualitative Perspective

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3804/is_200602/ai_n16107148



RAISING AWARENESS: A Quest for New Directions in Cultural Competence Development

Dr. PaJa Lee Donnelly builds upon her previous program of research concerning mental health within the Korean American community by sharing her qualitative study findings concerning mental health beliefs and help-seeking behaviors of Korean American parents of children with schizophrenia. Selected excerpts poignantly describe the anguish, shame, and stigma experienced by the interviewed study participants, contributing new insights regarding Korean Americans and mental health beliefs. Details concerning metaphors, subtle meanings, and nuances unique to Korean communication raise awareness specific to Korean Americans and inspires health care professionals to become more aware about communication differences within and between diverse groups. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3919/is_200507/ai_n14825654


How do you solve anomie? This and similar issues of modernity become even more complex when you have a highly mobile population that is very ethnically and culturally mixed. When you have a uniform background aberrancy stands out, when you can't even find a translator to speak with someone to tell if they need services, things are more difficult.

^This is what I was originally getting at. Our system for finding and dealing with people like this has enough holes already, and the dimension of immigrant-culture adds further complexities to overcome.

WarPhalange
20th April 07, 06:56 PM
I don't think so. Punching someone isn't evil. Even hitting someone with a brick isn't necessarily evil.

But organising weapons, ammunition, shooting 32 people, and sending videos, pictures and letter to NBC?

Evil. If Cho isn't evil, then 'evil' no longer has meaning.

Not so fast. Evil does have meaning. Bin Laden is decidedly evil. He isn't a raging lunatic like this guy was. That's the whole difference. Are you insane or not? Yes == can't be evil. Can't be anything for that matter, because your mind is just damaged.

DAYoung
20th April 07, 07:00 PM
Not so fast. Evil does have meaning. Bin Laden is decidedly evil. He isn't a raging lunatic like this guy was. That's the whole difference. Are you insane or not? Yes == can't be evil. Can't be anything for that matter, because your mind is just damaged.

Why can't insane people be evil? Why are they exempt from the normal continuum of moral character? If they can't be evil, can they be good?

WarPhalange
20th April 07, 07:01 PM
Give me an example.

DAYoung
20th April 07, 07:02 PM
Give me an example.

Of what? A good insane person?

WarPhalange
20th April 07, 07:18 PM
Yes.

Oh wait, to be good all one has to do is nothing.

Osiris
20th April 07, 07:33 PM
I think it depends on how insane we're talking about. Its possible for someone to loose all free will and just sorta go through the motions of being alive. Its also possible for someone to overzealously defend their malfunctioning mind. So really, whether or not he could be morally labeled depends on his exact condition. There are plenty of reasons for violence when one's mind is damaged that are sensible from that warped perspective.

DAYoung
20th April 07, 07:37 PM
Yes.

Oh wait, to be good all one has to do is nothing.

A good friend of mine was schizophrenic. He could be delusional, aggressive, thoughtless and brutal - but he was a relatively good man (flawed, but good). Despite all his suffering and fantasies, he'd never dream of doing what Cho did - in fact, I suspect he'd try to stop him.

Many people are insane and relatively good (Simone Weil was insane and very good, and Jesus possibly insane and even better). Cho was insane and evil.

ironlurker
20th April 07, 07:38 PM
In some states, you can be found guilty but insane.


MEDIA, Pennsylvania (CNN) -- Jurors found millionaire and chemical fortune heir John E. du Pont guilty but mentally ill Tuesday in the 1996 slaying of Olympic wrestler David Schultz.
Under the guilty but mentally ill verdict, du Pont faces a maximum of 20 to 40 years in prison, and a fine of up to $50,000. Judge Patricia Jenkins will determine whether he should spend time in a state mental institution first.
Schultz, 36, was shot to death on du Pont's suburban Philadelphia estate where the wrestler trained and lived with his family. The 1984 Olympic gold medalist was attempting a comeback with du Pont's wrestling team, Team Foxcatcher.
Psychiatric experts for both sides testified that du Pont, 58, is mentally ill, but only those for the defense said he was insane. The defense experts said du Pont was a paranoid schizophrenic who believed Schultz was part of an international conspiracy to kill him

http://www.cnn.com/US/9702/25/dupont.verdict/reax.html

Thinkchair
20th April 07, 07:41 PM
No, you are still a dumbshit because you are missing the point. Him thinking that he is justified even if it were true is one of the things that make him delusional.



Because being evil requires you to know what the fuck you are doing. Otherwise you'd have to call a whole number of mentally retarded people evil for doing stuff like not behaving or punching people when they feel threatened, even though they are not.




I think he knew what he was doing. I do not see how you can say he didn't. To me it was pretty clear from his video that he knew what he was doing. I would argue that just because someone is predisposed to behave violently that does not justify it or exempt them from blame. If the guy was so crazy he couldn't tell up from down, thats one thing, but this guy was clearly aware that when he shot people they would die. By your reasoning no one is really responsible for anything they do. Can't you always reduce human behavior to such things. At what point do I need to take responsibility for the chemical interactions in my brain?

ironlurker
20th April 07, 07:47 PM
Its also possible for someone to overzealously defend their malfunctioning mind.
I think that's a good point. If somone is delusional, but they attack you because they're pissed that you disagree with their delusion (as opposed to feeling threatened by you) that could show bad intention was the immediate issue.

WarPhalange
20th April 07, 07:48 PM
I think he knew what he was doing. I do not see how you can say he didn't. To me it was pretty clear from his video that he knew what he was doing. I would argue that just because someone is predisposed to behave violently that does not justify it or exempt them from blame. If the guy was so crazy he couldn't tell up from down, thats one thing, but this guy was clearly aware that when he shot people they would die. By your reasoning no one is really responsible for anything they do. Can't you always reduce human behavior to such things. At what point do I need to take responsibility for the chemical interactions in my brain?

You seriously need to stop arguing here. You have no fucking clue what "mentally insane" means, because you keep referring to him as knowing what he was doing therefore not insane (or insane enough). Shut up.

Thinkchair
20th April 07, 07:48 PM
Not so fast. Evil does have meaning. Bin Laden is decidedly evil. He isn't a raging lunatic like this guy was. That's the whole difference. Are you insane or not? Yes == can't be evil. Can't be anything for that matter, because your mind is just damaged.

Yes but just as this guy is a product of mental illness, isn't Bin Laden a product of 'cultural forces' beyond his own immediate control? In the middle east he is a hero to many, many people. He is there measure of good in some respects. So he feels justified in doing what he does. But you said someone who feels justified in doing something we call evil, cannot be evil because they don't really know what they are doing. This seems to be where you argument is taking us. I just don't understand why being insane exempts you from evil status. That makes absolutely no sense at all. Are insane people ever responsible for what they do? Does it matter what form of insanity the person has?

I would also just like to point out that you have simply declared the gun man to be extremely insane without specifying his condition. He may be insane, but right now it is not clear if he had mild depression, borderline personality disorder or if he was delusional.

WarPhalange
20th April 07, 07:51 PM
A good friend of mine was schizophrenic. He could be delusional, aggressive, thoughtless and brutal - but he was a relatively good man (flawed, but good). Despite all his suffering and fantasies, he'd never dream of doing what Cho did - in fact, I suspect he'd try to stop him.

Exactly. Your friend was delusional, aggressive, thoughtless, and brutal -- all when he had an episode. Would you blame him if he killed someone during one of those episodes? Doubt it. Yes, it's still his fault. He did it. But he wasn't even in control of his own mind.

ironlurker
20th April 07, 07:54 PM
I would also just like to point out that you have simply declared the gun man to be extremely insane without specifying his condition. He may be insane, but right now it is not clear if he had mild depression, borderline personality disorder or if he was delusional.

Reports claim, but have'nt shown, that he was diagnosed as autistic, supposedly at eight when he came to the US. As I said before, and Judah commented, most autistic people, even asperger's people, don't commit planned violence. You can have high-function people that get violent, but it will be spur of the moment, out of frustration or fear. Stockpiling guns and ammo and chaining doors doesn't fit in.
Still though, this guy obviously had -some- type of problem going way back to when he was a kid and it's not clear what just yet.

DAYoung
20th April 07, 07:54 PM
Exactly. Your friend was delusional, aggressive, thoughtless, and brutal -- all when he had an episode. Would you blame him if he killed someone during one of those episodes? Doubt it. Yes, it's still his fault. He did it. But he wasn't even in control of his own mind.

If he killed someone in a violent rage, I'd begin to open up to the idea of his evil. But perhaps I'd also see it as a loathsome aberration.

If he did anything like what Cho did, I'd say unequivocally that he had become evil.

ironlurker
20th April 07, 07:56 PM
Exactly. Your friend was delusional, aggressive, thoughtless, and brutal -- all when he had an episode. Would you blame him if he killed someone during one of those episodes? Doubt it. Yes, it's still his fault. He did it. But he wasn't even in control of his own mind.


Evil or Ill? Justifying the Insanity Defense

Reznek clearly and cogently leads the reader to the conclusion, not previously addressed by philosophers or the law, that our judgment should be based on whether the offender is someone whose actions are consistent with his basically good character. http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/156/10/1659

According to this doctor/philosopher DA's example would work because his actions were inconsistent with a basically good character.

EDIT- She's a psychiatrist who also has a doctorate in philosophy.

Thinkchair
20th April 07, 07:57 PM
You seriously need to stop arguing here. You have no fucking clue what "mentally insane" means, because you keep referring to him as knowing what he was doing therefore not insane (or insane enough). Shut up.

Poop Loops you are clearly losing this argument and just resorting to insults. You said he didn't know what he was doing, and I rejected that assertion.

My sister is Schizophrenic, so I have a pretty decent working knowledge of mental illness. I am no expert, but I have exposure to it. I never said he was not insane. I said he was still evil, and still responsible for his actions. It is a little unclear to me what you are trying to say here because your english is so bad. It appears you may be accusing me of not understanding the meaning of insane because (and I am only assuming based on your incoherent babble) you define insanity as meaning one does not know what he or she is doing. First off, insane is a very broad term. It does not have any meaning in the mental health world because they no longer use the word. You dont appear smart enough to know anything about law, so i am going to assume that you are not talking about the legal definition either. This only leaves the very broad and informal meaning of the word.

WarPhalange
20th April 07, 08:23 PM
I think it depends on how insane we're talking about. Its possible for someone to loose all free will and just sorta go through the motions of being alive. Its also possible for someone to overzealously defend their malfunctioning mind. So really, whether or not he could be morally labeled depends on his exact condition. There are plenty of reasons for violence when one's mind is damaged that are sensible from that warped perspective.

Exactly. It's not only what you do, but why you do it. His reason didn't have any cohesion. It was just a really long, angry rant.



http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/156/10/1659

According to this doctor/philosopher DA's example would work because his actions were inconsistent with a basically good character.

EDIT- She's a psychiatrist who also has a doctorate in philosophy.

So basically, if you're crazy for long enough (and suddenly it's consistent with your behavior) then you are evil. If you went crazy over a short period of time, then you're not evil yet.



Poop Loops you are clearly losing this argument and just resorting to insults. You said he didn't know what he was doing, and I rejected that assertion.
This is why you're an idiot. He knew that he was killing people. He knew that he was chaining the door shut. But his mind wasn't functioning properly, which is why he did it in the first place. Why can't you understand this?


My sister is Schizophrenic, so I have a pretty decent working knowledge of mental illness. I am no expert, but I have exposure to it. I never said he was not insane. I said he was still evil, and still responsible for his actions. It is a little unclear to me what you are trying to say here because your english is so bad. It appears you may be accusing me of not understanding the meaning of insane because (and I am only assuming based on your incoherent babble) you define insanity as meaning one does not know what he or she is doing. First off, insane is a very broad term. It does not have any meaning in the mental health world because they no longer use the word. You dont appear smart enough to know anything about law, so i am going to assume that you are not talking about the legal definition either. This only leaves the very broad and informal meaning of the word.

Schizophrenia comes in episodes. Things like depression (like he had) and anxiety and stuff are fairly constant. You can't really compare the two, much less say "my sister has it, therefore I can speak on the subject."

You're right. My usage of insanity is broad. That's my fault. What I mean is someone who either doesn't know what they are doing (something like a psychotic episode) or we can't understand why (i.e. someone committing suicide wtihout a reason or going on a killing spree without a reason). Is that better?

By the way, you really suck at insulting people. It makes you look stupid.

WarPhalange
20th April 07, 08:24 PM
If he killed someone in a violent rage, I'd begin to open up to the idea of his evil. But perhaps I'd also see it as a loathsome aberration.

If he did anything like what Cho did, I'd say unequivocally that he had become evil.

So if he just used a gun he found and shot 30 people without chaining the doors, he'd still be ok?

I'm just trying to see what exactly your definition of evil is.

Kiko
20th April 07, 08:29 PM
How about... Charles Manson? Insane AND Evil.

Thinkchair
20th April 07, 08:30 PM
You're right. My usage of insanity is broad. That's my fault. What I mean is someone who either doesn't know what they are doing (something like a psychotic episode) or we can't understand why (i.e. someone committing suicide wtihout a reason or going on a killing spree without a reason). Is that better?

By the way, you really suck at insulting people. It makes you look stupid.

Better than being stupid I suppose. Probably because I don't make a habit of insulting people like you do.

I understand your position. I just disagree with it. First, we do not have enough information to even know what he was suffering form at the time the attack happened. Second, even if he was suffering from a psychotic episode, he is still evil. He is still choosing to express his insanity by killing 32 people. We are not talking about someone who freaked out and killed a single person in a fit of passion. This was planned. That makes it very different. It does not really matter what his reasons are, or if we understand them. Even if there is an underlying root 'cause' he still runs the show. All this does is explain his reasons for doing what he did, it does not make him any less evil. Like I said, you could apply the same argument to Bin Laden using cultural forces.

By the way, I never meant to imply that my sister being mentally meant that I should be seen as knowledgable about the subject. But it does mean I have seen the mental health industry from a unique perspective and do have something to add to the conversation. I also learned a great deal about other mental illnesses (and mental illness in general) in order to help my sister. I would just support what Day was saying. If my sister went out and killed 32 people, I would say she is an evil person. Sometimes she does very nasty things. She sees threats that are not there. She has evil believed at times that my parents and her friends were conspiring against her. So I get where you are coming from with your argument. I am not saying it is not complicated. But if my sister harmed my parents because of her delusions I would view her as evil. But that is different from saying I would no longer love her. I would just recognize what kind of person she is and what she is capable of.

Fearless Ukemi
20th April 07, 08:32 PM
I would argue that what he did was evil. Being mentally ill does not change that. He wasn't an animal, but a human being with thoughts and feelings. Someone mentioned Singer previously in this thread. He believed the mentally ill were no different than animals and that they should be euthanised.

I don't share that opinion. Being mentally ill does not inhibit a person from being able to feel human emotions and it does not prevent a person from being capable of love or hate. His actions were clearly hate driven. His actions also display that he was thinking clearly enough to know exactly what he was doing.

kobudo
20th April 07, 08:35 PM
oh sweet Jesus kobudo don't say that plz, questioning the desirability of a forced arranged marriage is only spreading race hatred

I smell sarcasm here... but really, an arranged marriage where two sets of parents who have similar values, attitudes, and lifestyles get together while the children are still young just doesn't seem the same as parents telling their 21 or so-year-old daughter that she needs to get out there, date, and find a husband before she gets too old.

Thinkchair
20th April 07, 08:37 PM
Schizophrenia comes in episodes. Things like depression (like he had) and anxiety and stuff are fairly constant. You can't really compare the two, much less say "my sister has it, therefore I can speak on the subject."

.

My experience with my sister has not shown this at all. Sure there are peaks and valleys (at times she gets much worse) but she is consistently mentally ill. You simply cannot have a conversation with her that you would have with a normal person.

Depression doesn't come in episodes?

Are you saying having a case of depression means he cannot be morally accountable for his actions?

ironlurker
20th April 07, 08:38 PM
So basically, if you're crazy for long enough (and suddenly it's consistent with your behavior) then you are evil. If you went crazy over a short period of time, then you're not evil yet

No, I would think it's more like this.
You could have a severely deluded person who believed for years there was an alien implant in their brain and all of their actions were being monitored by the greys, the mafia, and the Mossad. Let's say they're mentally ill for years.
You taunt him, saying "The Reticulans are more powerful then the Greys" and he grabs a knife and stabs you in a rage. His beliefs were the product of mental illness, but his action was the result of anger.

DerAuslander108
20th April 07, 10:24 PM
I wouldn't lay blame entirely on the officials who did not do something about Cho's mental state. They have a history of doing the proper things. A general label of "incompetent" is inaccurate in this case.

I wouldn't either.

There's so many factors spread everywhere, any attempt to lay blame at the feet of any one person who dealt with Cho is over-simplification at best, and a witch hunt at the worst.

DerAuslander108
20th April 07, 10:27 PM
Seems like the perfect conditions for marriage to me -- being forced into it by your family.

Is that a cultural thing or are all his relatives as daffy as he was, but in a non-murderous way?

South Korea was a very different place back then, and nowhere near the economic power house it has become today.

DerAuslander108
20th April 07, 10:35 PM
I respect what you're saying, and I'm sorry about crazy crackers that the community has to deal with. From the articles I read, there was already opposition to church construction, etc.

It is absolutely juvenile.

I nearly decked a guy today when I heard him say that anyone who bleeds soy sauce should be ashamed.


won't even bring up the arranged marriage, consisting of being forced to marry a stranger ten years older from a different regional and socio-economic background, because this would be "finger pointing and blame" at evil Koreans, despite the fact that Hindus, Muslims, and Zoroastrians all often have arranged marriages and they're all encountering serious problems with them in the modern context.

It also wouldn't bear much fruit, considering that this practice has almost zero following anymore.


What should a pastor do if a member of their congregation tells them their child has cancer, or, let's use something dangerous to other people, hepatitus?

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. Clarify.


^This is the lead editorial from the JoonAng Daily.
Culture, as this editorial makes clear, is fair game for inquiry.
If the nuts down there, or you, can't distinguish between blaming something on someones race and looking at socio-cultural problems, I don't know what to say.

One thing to consider here is that there is a difference between Koreans and Korean Americans. I'll be posting an editorial from the Washington Post about that very shortly.

Osiris
20th April 07, 10:57 PM
Second, even if he was suffering from a psychotic episode, he is still evil. He is still choosing to express his insanity by killing 32 people. We are not talking about someone who freaked out and killed a single person in a fit of passion. This was planned. That makes it very different.

Insanity can be intelligent and logical.

Judah Maccabee
20th April 07, 11:11 PM
Regarding "guilty, but insane:"

Each state has different standards for what punishments can be meted out if a person is insane, or the standards which constitute insanity.

First of all, the insanity plea is rarely used; it's used far more often for dramatic effect on "Law and Order" and the like. In addition to its infrequent employment, it is rarely successful. And as a 3rd consideration, for anyone who's seen "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest," the movie/play/book is accurate in depicting the fact that confinement in a mental institution isn't always the preferable alternative to jail.

That being said, most states utilize a standard of being able to distinguish between "right and wrong." The most successful occasions of this being used generally involves a clinical history of mental illness where right and wrong are forgotten or confused, but it's possible for someone with no history to be examined and declared insane.

In the context of my work with autistic adults, I interact with clients who widely range in terms of functioning and cognitive ability. As you get lower on the spectrum of functioning, it becomes more and more hazy to whether they understand if their actions are improper or not.

As an example, "Abraham" is in his 30s, is decently high-functioning, verbal, and so on. You can carry on a conversation with him, and he can learn new tasks decently well, if he's inclined to do so.

However, Abe will eat crumbs of food on the floor, and will dig into the trash to look for food scraps. He will also resort to eating raw meat if it is accessible, and he is hungry. He is also fixated on things like going to the doctor, getting snacks, etc. If other people are going to the doctor or getting a snack, and Abraham doesn't get those same things, he may eventually lash out, tearing apart his shirt with his teeth and sometimes hitting staff.

If you asked Abe if it was ok to eat raw meat or to hit staff, he would answer in the negative. But it's more like Abe has cognitively learned what actions are wrong, but hasn't truly internalized them to the point he deliberately avoids behaviors to keep from getting in trouble.

So Abe knows what is right and what is wrong, but does not actively apply that knowledge. In fact, he struck me yesterday in full-view of another staff member because I asked him to stop repeating himself (one of his behaviors that we're looking to rehabilitate).

Just by talking to him, you can tell he's got something "messed up" in his head, even without looking at his med sheet. But while he has a definite mental illness, I highly doubt he would be able to get off "scot-free" if he committed a violent crime. OTOH, if he was arrested for shoplifting because he took food without paying for it, that's different, since he doesn't fully understand the concept of money and exchanging it for goods and services (most people with moderate to profound Developmental Disabilities don't understand money).

WarPhalange
20th April 07, 11:12 PM
My experience with my sister has not shown this at all. Sure there are peaks and valleys (at times she gets much worse) but she is consistently mentally ill. You simply cannot have a conversation with her that you would have with a normal person.

Depression doesn't come in episodes?

Are you saying having a case of depression means he cannot be morally accountable for his actions?

Depression can come in episodes, but it's pretty much always there. Even when you're not having an episode, you're never 100%. Hell, I've been taking medication for over 4 months now and I still get episodes.

I guess Schizophrenia is the same, then. I have a friend who is schizophrenic and he is mostly normal but gets hallucinations and stuff.

ironlurker: If someone says that whites are better than blacks to a black person and the black person stabs the guy, is he justified or not? This is the exact same case. What he believes himself to be has no bearing on whether or not he'll lash out at someone.

The Villain gets what I'm saying entirely.