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mrblackmagic
28th March 07, 08:14 AM
The article speaks for itself, but a school in Seattle promotes egalitarian ownership during playtime.


L'Eggo My Lego

By Maureen Martin 28 Feb 2007

Some Seattle school children are being told to be skeptical of private property rights. This lesson is being taught by banning Legos.

A ban was initiated at the Hilltop Children's Center in Seattle. According to an article in the winter 2006-07 issue of "Rethinking Schools" magazine, the teachers at the private school wanted their students to learn that private property ownership is evil.

According to the article, the students had been building an elaborate "Legotown," but it was accidentally demolished. The teachers decided its destruction was an opportunity to explore "the inequities of private ownership." According to the teachers, "Our intention was to promote a contrasting set of values: collectivity, collaboration, resource-sharing, and full democratic participation."

The children were allegedly incorporating into Legotown "their assumptions about ownership and the social power it conveys." These assumptions "mirrored those of a class-based, capitalist society -- a society that we teachers believe to be unjust and oppressive."

They claimed as their role shaping the children's "social and political understandings of ownership and economic equity ... from a perspective of social justice."

So they first explored with the children the issue of ownership. Not all of the students shared the teachers' anathema to private property ownership. "If I buy it, I own it," one child is quoted saying. The teachers then explored with the students concepts of fairness, equity, power, and other issues over a period of several months.

At the end of that time, Legos returned to the classroom after the children agreed to several guiding principles framed by the teachers, including that "All structures are public structures" and "All structures will be standard sizes."

http://www.techcentralstation.com/

Ze German
28th March 07, 08:27 AM
Also they control our minds by fluoridating our water.

WarPhalange
28th March 07, 08:33 AM
Great. First the guy fucks the horse, now this. Seattle is beginning to really suck.

Ze German
28th March 07, 08:37 AM
Great. First the guy fucks the horse, now this. Seattle is beginning to really suck.

I have the vid. You want me to post it?

WarPhalange
28th March 07, 08:55 AM
My brain just melted.

Kiko
28th March 07, 09:04 AM
There's gotta be a link to Starbucks somewhere..

danno
28th March 07, 10:17 AM
yet more evidence that china is slowly weakening america for the coming invasion.

ICY
28th March 07, 02:25 PM
Fuck capitalism.

Neildo
28th March 07, 02:39 PM
but lego is awesome!



k, i just read the article.
These assumptions "mirrored those of a class-based, capitalist society -- a society that we teachers believe to be unjust and oppressive."

Fucking duh. welcome to planet earth. also: lol pinkos.

Phrost
28th March 07, 03:23 PM
Every fucking society since the dawn of man has had classes; there's no way to get around it regardless of how noble your intentions are.

Some people will seek power over others through any means be it financially, politically, socially, or physically. And most of the herd will be content to live out their lives as long as they're not bothered too much by the struggle of the wolves seeking to establish or expand their power.

Thinkchair
28th March 07, 03:31 PM
Every fucking society since the dawn of man has had classes; there's no way to get around it regardless of how noble your intentions are.

Some people will seek power over others through any means be it financially, politically, socially, or physically. And most of the herd will be content to live out their lives as long as they're not bothered too much by the struggle of the wolves seeking to establish or expand their power.

It seems to me that what alot of these 'progressive' minded academics, really just want to erase any distinctions or categories they feel are social constructions (which for them seems to mean everything).

polishillusion
28th March 07, 03:36 PM
fuckin' hippies and their self loving bullshit

Shawarma
28th March 07, 03:40 PM
Now what has Thinkchair done to be -rep spanked so badly?

cyrijl
28th March 07, 03:48 PM
oooh...you don't wanna go there

Question!
28th March 07, 03:54 PM
I blame Legos for my current capitalist mindset.

TM
28th March 07, 03:59 PM
I'm so confused now. I don't know if I should support my controllers from Lego or my controllers from the nihilistic teachers association. Please tell me what to do.
Fucking douchbags.

Kiko
28th March 07, 04:06 PM
http://files.kavefish.com/pictures/collections/funny_cat_pictures/funny_cat_pictures_062.jpg

Steve
28th March 07, 04:08 PM
I'm going to march right over to that school and demand that all their Lego people be replaced with something that instills this sense of 'public ownership':

http://imgred.com/http://static.flickr.com/39/104967935_e123a12fb4.jpg

TM
28th March 07, 04:10 PM
No Dude! Lincoln Logs. They're wooden and American. (Not unlike Al Gore)

Zendetta
28th March 07, 04:11 PM
Every fucking society since the dawn of man has had classes; there's no way to get around it regardless of how noble your intentions are.

Caste System vs "one man - one vote".

We've come a long way.

Kiko
28th March 07, 04:11 PM
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f38/keyescannon/killemall.jpg

Hedgehogey
28th March 07, 04:38 PM
Every fucking society since the dawn of man has had classes; there's no way to get around it regardless of how noble your intentions are.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_Catalonia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C7%83Kung_people
http://www.prickly-paradigm.com/paradigm14.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaroa
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5942983767939071986
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igbo_people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushmen
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/ws98/ws55_zapatista.html
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/mexico/comment/auto_munc_nov98.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_Australians#Before_the_European_arrival

Zendetta
28th March 07, 05:00 PM
Good info Hedge.

Do you have any examples that arn't either:
1) indigenous people, pre-industrialization
or
2) temporarliy successful during a time of war or massive social upheaval?

Because an obvious critique is that, while warm-and-fuzzy, non-hierarchical societies seem to be at a (major) disadvantage when it comes to competing with hierearchical systems.

Also, it looks like non-hierarchical systems might work only in times of forced collectivism (social upheaval, Chiapas, etc), or in tribal groups that are small enough to share strong genetic bonds (!Kung, Ibo, etc).

Kein Haar
28th March 07, 05:49 PM
Anthropologowned.

Hedgehogey
28th March 07, 06:27 PM
Good info Hedge.

Do you have any examples that arn't either:
1) indigenous people, pre-industrialization

Chiapas.



or
2) temporarliy successful during a time of war or massive social upheaval?

I have no idea how one could transition from a hierarchical to a non-hierarchical society without massive social upheaval.



Because an obvious critique is that, while warm-and-fuzzy, non-hierarchical societies seem to be at a (major) disadvantage when it comes to competing with hierearchical systems.

Even if that were true (the two twentieth century examples contradict this), it wouldn't make up an ethical condemnation. In fact, to take that logic to it's extremest example, fascism would probably be the best society to strive for, since it's military advantages are undeniable.



Also, it looks like non-hierarchical systems might work only in times of forced collectivism (social upheaval, Chiapas, etc),

I was several weeks in a rebel village in chiapas. "Collectivism" (not a term used by the zapatistas or their supporters) was in no way forced. The rebel demands were ratified and approved by every village within zapatista territory, as were the juntas de buen gobierno, etc.



or in tribal groups that are small enough to share strong genetic bonds (!Kung, Ibo, etc).

Egalitarianism is a feature of most or all of the cultures of those conventionally called "bushmen". The Igbo number 20-30 million.

Bukow
28th March 07, 06:30 PM
Distinctions between these teachers and the pupils should be erased. There is no objective basis for saying the teachers have more "knowledge" than the students, and thus they should all be equals in the classroom.

Moreover, these rules banning legos are simply superstructure. The placated teachers are just tools of the capitalist class, urging in piecemeal bits aimed at placating the masses and distracting them from their real suffering. Real commies would seek to maximize the contradictions in the current thesis.

Bukow
28th March 07, 06:32 PM
Apparently someone hasn't heard that Rousseau and romanticizing the "noble savage" have left the building.

Zendetta
28th March 07, 06:42 PM
"Collectivism" (not a term used by the zapatistas or their supporters) was in no way forced.

You've missed my point - I mean forced by the dire circumstances. Your other contemporary examples are also in the context of civil war. Would this center hold if it wasn't Revolution Time?


Egalitarianism is a feature of most or all of the cultures of those conventionally called "bushmen". The Igbo number 20-30 million.

The salient point is that they do not generally constitute a broad 'society' but rather isolated tribal bands.

It seems obvious that humanity can do the commie thing well (and we did for a long time)... as long as its a small tribe where everybody knows everybody and most everybody is related to most everybody else.

Because in modern communist regimes, collectivism had to be enforced by *ahem* State Sanctioned violence.

By your example, Fascism offers some impressive military advantages, but that is one very limited angle. If nothing else, the reduced quality of life negates the advantage to me. Maybe you've been tusslin' with too many Nazis! I'm also talking about medicine, literature, edumucation, technology, infant mortality, etc etc etc.


Sooo, any examples that arn't either pre-industrial (!Kung), or crisis-driven (Chiapas)?

Also, got any links on mondragon (sp?) communities?

Zendetta
28th March 07, 06:43 PM
Apparently someone hasn't heard that Rousseau and romanticizing the "noble savage" have left the building.

That was funny!

Hedgehogey
28th March 07, 07:40 PM
Apparently someone hasn't heard that Rousseau and romanticizing the "noble savage" have left the building.

No need to be nasty, brutish and short.

Zendetta
28th March 07, 07:42 PM
THat was also funny! You guys should take this show on the road...

bob
28th March 07, 07:49 PM
Kids are, by their nature, selfish but this is a very hamfisted attempt to instil some poorly understood socialist values on them.

Some friends of mine have a system for their kids which works really well. They don't own any toys at all. What they have is a neighbourhood toy library which works pretty much the same as a book library - you borrow a toy for a few weeks at a time. I think there's a nominal subscription fee. So their kids have no real sense of owning anything exclusively. If they want a toy they ask their Mum if they can borrow it from the toy library and they're quite happy to give it back after a while - generally kids bore pretty quickly with one thing anyway.

Hedgehogey
28th March 07, 07:52 PM
You've missed my point - I mean forced by the dire circumstances. Your other contemporary examples are also in the context of civil war. Would this center hold if it wasn't Revolution Time?

You're confusing cause and effect. Revolution is part and parcel of the transition to an antiauthoritarian society.



The salient point is that they do not generally constitute a broad 'society' but rather isolated tribal bands.

The largest ethnic group in modern nigeria is not a broad society?



It seems obvious that humanity can do the commie thing well (and we did for a long time)... as long as its a small tribe where everybody knows everybody and most everybody is related to most everybody else.

So, then, what is this mythical "human nature" that every armchair evopsych wants to invoke? If we are preconditioned to a communitarian existance within a small tribal band, why is "human nature" increasingly invoked as justification for capitalism?



Because in modern communist regimes, collectivism had to be enforced by *ahem* State Sanctioned violence.


As I am not a marxist, I can't comment. However, by the definitions of the bolsheviks, they were extremely succesful. They never wanted anything but a new, party plutocracy with themselves at the top, and that is exactly what they got.



By your example, Fascism offers some impressive military advantages, but that is one very limited angle. If nothing else, the reduced quality of life negates the advantage to me. Maybe you've been tusslin' with too many Nazis! I'm also talking about medicine, literature, edumucation, technology, infant mortality, etc etc etc.

First of all, literature? Literature?

Second of all, as an antiauthoritarian, i'd be perfectly content to compete with the authoritarians through entirely peaceful means. Cede us a state or two in the pacific northwest and we'll do the most epic interpretive The Dispossesed cosplay you've ever seen.
Obviously this is a facetious example, since the authorities would never allow such a settlement.



Sooo, any examples that arn't either pre-industrial (!Kung), or crisis-driven (Chiapas)?


In what way is the chiapan insurrection "crisis driven"?



Also, got any links on mondragon (sp?) communities?

Not my bag.

Hedgehogey
28th March 07, 07:53 PM
THat was also funny! You guys should take this show on the road...

Seriously, it's not like I commited an original sin.

Funny thing is, I probably know quite a bit more about "noble savage idealisation" (what actual scholars call Cultural Fetishism) than Bukow, and that with my begginer's knowledge of postcolonial theory.

Meanwhile, Phrost-kun seems to have fled the field.

Bukow
28th March 07, 08:43 PM
No need to be nasty, brutish and short.

Damn genetics...

Bukow
28th March 07, 08:46 PM
Funny thing is, I probably know quite a bit more about "noble savage idealisation" (what actual scholars call Cultural Fetishism) than Bukow, and that with my begginer's knowledge of postcolonial theory.

I've no doubt.

But I've not the energy for arguing tonight, so you can also save yours for any wandering ditch |\|1|\|j4$.

DAYoung
28th March 07, 11:08 PM
Sounds great.

I'd enroll my son.

DAYoung
28th March 07, 11:10 PM
Every fucking society since the dawn of man has had classes; there's no way to get around it regardless of how noble your intentions are.

Nah. Let's try anyway. 'Cause we're free 'n that.

Dagon Akujin
29th March 07, 12:05 AM
Why is this thread not about the Lego Bible (http://www.thebricktestament.com/)?


'If a man happens to meet a virgin woman who is not engaged to be married... (http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/rape/dt22_28a.html)'

'Neither should a woman present herself to an animal for sex. It is a perversion. (http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/beastiality/lv18_23b.html)'

'All the people who came out of Egypt had been circumsized, but none of those born during the journey in the wilderness had been circumcized. (http://www.thebricktestament.com/joshua/second_circumcision/jos05_05.html)'

Dagon

Steve
29th March 07, 02:33 AM
Communist's don't believe in religion, that's why.

Shawarma
29th March 07, 08:01 AM
Hope the parents realize that their kids are being raised by people who use terms like "capitalist society" in casual conversation.

I'd pull my kids out. I can teach them to share without having to become all pinko about it.

Arhetton
29th March 07, 08:34 AM
Personally I'm a fan of the idea of a meritocracy.

Capitalism can be unfair at times but its very dynamic and to an extent individuals can move through the class structure quite flexibly. Downsides, well it also depends on a massive cheap labour force being able to produce most of its goods so the distribution of wealth is often a small rich minority and a large poor majority.

Communism and socialism are more stable but they progress at slower rates culturally & technologically etc. Couldn't B fucked to explain this point. Competition produces evolutionary pressures and therfore adaptation etc. Game theory etc.

Chinas kind of funny because they keep introducing economic reforms so that basically their economic structure is almost identical to western capitalist countries. Theres an ongoing debate about whether or not that will actually effect the political structure of the country, your guess is as good as mine (probably better).

By the way a modern example of a totally socialist state is Saudi Arabia. The only reason it can really function in this way however is because of its wealth through oil... plus its also a dictatorial monarchy...
So its not exactly a model of the perfect society (LOL) but yeah there you go there is a modern socialist state that exists and economically functions beautifully, for very unique reasons.

Each system has its pro's and con's.

Personally I think that the real revolutions of this century will be technological ones which influence politics, not the social structures changing because of people power or whatever.

Basically this century we will run out of oil and the changes that flow from a changing energy model will effect our economic and political models.

I still think there will be social upheaval and change, but I think that the lasting changes in our society will be technological ones.

I dont see any harm about discussing your views about the structure of society at small or large around you but it is funny when people want to argue so passionately about forces largely beyond their control.

The world is a big, messed up place.

Who gives a shit what teachers are teaching to kids these days? Kids are going to rebel against it once they are 16 anyway. The commies want to be capitalists, the capitalists want to be commies, world without end.

Lego is fucking cool.

mrblackmagic
29th March 07, 09:42 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_Catalonia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C7%83Kung_people
http://www.prickly-paradigm.com/paradigm14.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaroa
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5942983767939071986
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igbo_people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushmen
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/ws98/ws55_zapatista.html
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/mexico/comment/auto_munc_nov98.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_Australians#Before_the_European_arrival

That's considering they're all of the same tribe or more commonly "us."

Bukow
29th March 07, 12:00 PM
Almost everyone who bitches about capitalism's evils never seriously considers moving to (or even visiting) a socialist country, because they know they'd shit themselves once stripped of the rights and comforts they enjoy under their capitalist governments. That's why it's a bit hard to take a lot of these comments quite seriously.

It also is quite telling that no one presently living under a socialist regime is involved in this debate. Anyone really think this is simply because they don't have anything to say?

Shawarma
29th March 07, 12:30 PM
Um. It's an American message board in English populated by 95% yanks. You take the fact that no Cubans or Chinese participate in this discussion as evidence your capitalism is t3h roxxors?

Go somewhere they speak Mandarin or Spanish if you want to hear their opinion.

Bukow
29th March 07, 12:51 PM
Sure, point out the flourishing intrawebz debate among los Cubanos -- the ones in Cuba, not Miami -- and I'll be happy to read those boards. Porque creo que los Cubanos van a tener unas opiniones interesantes sobre capitalismo y socialismo.

Seriously, doesn't it give people pause that there is always a gigantic list of people trying to escape socialist countries to more capitalist ones, whereas the reverse is very exceptional?

Stick
29th March 07, 12:53 PM
The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, but from our dirty capitlist yard you can easily see that the communist yard is not only dirty but covered in land mines and barbed wire.

MaverickZ
29th March 07, 01:20 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_male

Neildo
29th March 07, 01:46 PM
I say it's a tool of an imperialist machine.

http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/jmenomeno/Museumshow717/p7170051.jpg

MaverickZ
29th March 07, 01:49 PM
Ninja please.
http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/SaberScorpion/SW-Large/xwing2.jpg

Neildo
29th March 07, 01:53 PM
Mines bigger.

MaverickZ
29th March 07, 01:59 PM
http://www.starshipmodeler.com/starwars/sw-reblt.jpg

Neildo
29th March 07, 02:00 PM
i win.

DJR
29th March 07, 02:01 PM
Sure, point out the flourishing intrawebz debate among los Cubanos -- the ones in Cuba, not Miami -- and I'll be happy to read those boards. Porque creo que los Cubanos van a tener unas opiniones interesantes sobre capitalismo y socialismo.

Seriously, doesn't it give people pause that there is always a gigantic list of people trying to escape socialist countries to more capitalist ones, whereas the reverse is very exceptional?

I've been to Cuba. It's got problems (state monopolization of the means of mass communication being one of them), but it's hardly the Orwellian hell-scape portrayed in the American media. In some ways, Cuban society seemed actually less regulated than the US (people weren't phoning the cops on their neighbours for having their music too loud, police didn't seem to give a shit if people were hanging around and partying in public, etc).

Would I prefer to live in Cuba over Canada? Nope. We're a way wealthier country, and there's no way Cuba is going to catch up with us anytime soon. But if I was poor and living in Latin America or the Carribean, I'd way rather live in Cuba, which has decent free healthcare, some minimal guarantee of food, and a good education system, than I would in Haiti, one of the shanty towns around Mexico city or some of the other really dire places I've seen in the region. Cuba is also pretty safe - I walked around 'rough' neighbourhoods in Santiago de Cuba and had no problems, whereas there are parts of Mexico city that people told me are really, really fucking dangerous.

MaverickZ
29th March 07, 02:12 PM
Interesting, well that certainly explains why they aren't packing into boats to come over to Florida... oh wait....

Steve
29th March 07, 02:21 PM
i win.

Pffft, I have the trump card right here:

http://imgred.com/http://www.fbtb.net/sets/7139/7139_box.jpg

DJR
29th March 07, 02:30 PM
Interesting, well that certainly explains why they aren't packing into boats to come over to Florida... oh wait....

If you read the post, I actually do account for that. Cuba is an impoverished third world country, and generally can't offer the same standard of living that is available Canada, the USA or Western Europe. The Cubans who are "packing into boats" are for the most part doing it for the same economic reason that Mexicans are crossing the southern US border. The difference is, for political reasons, the US government will accept any Cubans who make it to the mainland US as 'political refugees,' whereas Mexicans are hunted down, detained and shipped back.

So can Cuba offer better standard of living than a first world country? In general, no (though they do have better healthcare for poor people than does the US, and even offer free medical training for Americans willing to devote themselves to medical practice in poor US communities). But does Cuba offer a better standard of living for the lower classes than other comparable developing countries? I'd say yes. Cuba has life expectancies and health stats comparable to north america and europe, whereas other countries in the region don't. Haiti, which is near Cuba geographically, has a life expectancy of 51 years, whereas Cuba's is 77. Cuba's literacy rate is 97%, Haiti's is about 52%.

DJR
29th March 07, 02:52 PM
Oh, and also....

http://digicam.co.za/gallery/data/media/56/DSC03475.jpg

Bukow
29th March 07, 02:57 PM
though they do have better healthcare for poor people than does the US...

That's a ridiculous assertion. I don't have any insurance, and have absolutely no problem obtaining healthcare -- and what's more, the medicine is in ready supply. Cuban shortages in medicine post-Soviet subsidization have been well-known.

Also interesting is the fact that the Cuban suicide rate is among the highest in the Americas.

And why downplay the fact that political repression is rampant in Cuba, thus causing people to leave for greener pastures? Mexicans coming to America will talk about the opportunities America offers; Cubans escaping Cuba will talk about Castro.

MaverickZ
29th March 07, 02:58 PM
Boba Fett (and all the lookalikes) is the Drizzt Do'Urden of the Star Wars universe. And thus is held in utter contempt by me.

DJR
29th March 07, 03:08 PM
http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/PeterPang/Others/LongHair/04_vancouver.jpg

http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/Dunechaser/History/Leaders/1928-1967_ernesto.che.guevara_2.jpg

MaverickZ
29th March 07, 03:10 PM
By the way, Che on T-shirts is the most hilarious thing EVAR!... EV... AR!

DJR
29th March 07, 03:12 PM
That's a ridiculous assertion. I don't have any insurance, and have absolutely no problem obtaining healthcare

How much do you have to pay for it? I had American friends in the 90s who told me horror stories about having to do the healthcare equivalent of a 'dine and dash' when they had no insurance. One guy gave a fake name, got his broken arm set, and then ran off into the night to avoid paying the several thousand dollar hospital bill (he was working at minimum wage at the time).

DJR
29th March 07, 03:14 PM
By the way, Che on T-shirts is the most hilarious thing EVAR!... EV... AR!

I agree. Totally cheesy, and most people wearing them don't even have a clue who he was. I once met some hippy who thought he was the dude from the rolling paper package...

Zendetta
29th March 07, 03:18 PM
The ZigZag Man?

viva La Rollvolution!!!!

Bukow
29th March 07, 03:48 PM
How much do you have to pay for it? I had American friends in the 90s who told me horror stories about having to do the healthcare equivalent of a 'dine and dash' when they had no insurance. One guy gave a fake name, got his broken arm set, and then ran off into the night to avoid paying the several thousand dollar hospital bill (he was working at minimum wage at the time).

If I want to get in immediately, I can go to the private clinic at the end of my block. It usually costs $60, and since I don't have insurance, there is usually no charge if I need a shot, or the clinic will provide typical antiobiotics as part of the price.

If I can wait a couple days, there is a free clinic I can go to. My friend, who is a diabetic and has no insurance, can go there on the appropriate days and get whatever she needs for free.

If there is something relatively major, however, then a visit to the hospital can become exceptionally expensive. However, you'll get the treatment you need as fast as anyone else; how you're going to pay for it is another matter. I've never been denied the same treatment as anyone else at a public hospital, and they've always just sent me a bill later.

There also exists a county-wide public insurance program for those without insurance. Since I don't agree with government (read: taxpayer supported) health care, however, I've felt it would be hypocritical to participate in it, and thus have no experience with how well it works, the care it provides, etc.

billy sol hurok
29th March 07, 03:52 PM
By the way, Che on T-shirts is the most hilarious thing EVAR!... EV... AR!
For my money (ha!), it's trumped by the various (http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/873) lawsuits (http://www.netssa.com/che.html) over use (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-09/01/content_474011.htm) of his image (http://www.namedevelopment.com/blog/archives/2006/12/product_naming.html). Lawyers and cockroaches FTW!

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-09/01/xin_57090201100668722821.jpg

Bukow
29th March 07, 04:17 PM
That's why I have one of these...

http://www.thoseshirts.com/images/rect-checap-pd.jpg

Stick
29th March 07, 04:18 PM
That is a great shirt that I would buy and wear.

Neildo
29th March 07, 04:19 PM
Oh, and also....

http://digicam.co.za/gallery/data/media/56/DSC03475.jpg

No hotlinking! Hell, i can't even follow the link to the original image.


That is a great shirt that I would buy and wear.

Seconded. Link plz.

edit: nevrmind. I r teh dum. http://www.thoseshirts.com/checap.html

DAYoung
29th March 07, 05:50 PM
I agree. Totally cheesy, and most people wearing them don't even have a clue who he was. I once met some hippy who thought he was the dude from the rolling paper package...

I wrote to Castro about it a few years ago. I received a reply, in Spanish (which I don't read), from one of their departments. It was three or four incredibly long paragraphs (Seinfeld Steinbrenner-esque), where they lauded Che, and attacked imperialism.

There were photos of Che, and an autographed picture of Castro inside.

Zendetta
29th March 07, 06:36 PM
Revolution is part and parcel of the transition to an antiauthoritarian society.

No shit! Er, I mean.... I rather expected you to say something like that.

PS - you are still missing my point here. See below*.


The largest ethnic group in modern nigeria is not a broad society?

I'm asking whether their egalitarian culture sustained a broad and connected society, as opposed to a loose confederation of tribal groups.

Regardless, their modern history paints quite another picture.

Many other African groups consider the Igbo to be ruthless business men and cut-throat entrepreneurs. There is broad consensus that Igbo people started the notorious Nigerian email scams - a Google Serach for "Igbo + scams" yields almost 30,000 results.

So whatever their cheeryy egalitarian history might have been, they seem quite happy to be Ruthless Badazz Capitalistas now.


So, then, what is this mythical "human nature" that every armchair evopsych wants to invoke?

Heheh. Perhaps we should ask the Igbo. You are welcome to your own opinion, but I'm pretty certain its a little sumthin' called self interest.


However, by the definitions of the bolsheviks, they were extremely succesful. They never wanted anything but a new, party plutocracy with themselves at the top, and that is exactly what they got.

Come now. By that measure, the bush Admionistration has been a smashing (literally) success. Alot of revolutionaries share this trait, IMO.


In what way is the chiapan insurrection "crisis driven"?

Err, because shitty conditions drove them to seize land and set up an alternate infrastructure? I'm not taking away anything from them, simply asking you for examples of successful non-authoritarian societies that arn't either preindustrial or in the middle of a civil war.*

ICY
29th March 07, 07:11 PM
Ocean Falls, the place I stayed last year.


Come now. By that measure, the bush Admionistration has been a smashing (literally) success.

It has been an exceptionally profitable one for Bush's friends.

DJR
29th March 07, 07:30 PM
Ocean Falls, the place I stayed last year.


Weird - I knew a couple of people who grew up there. I think one of them moved back, maybe became postmaster or something. You know Gerald Hogrefe? He used to be involved the punk/alt music scene in Victoria in the 80s/early 90s.

Dagon Akujin
29th March 07, 07:41 PM
Many other African groups consider the Igbo to be ruthless business men and cut-throat entrepreneurs. There is broad consensus that Igbo people started the notorious Nigerian email scams - a Google Serach for "Igbo + scams" yields almost 30,000 results.

The Igbo (Ibo) hold trickery as a virtue. Here's my Bullshido post about them. (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=821306&postcount=26)


I studied the Ibo (also written as Igbo) a tiny bit for a test I just took on Nigerian government. They are typically Christian nowadays and compared to other Nigerians are loud, competitive, driven, and more educated. They used to use tribal councils to rule and wanted unanimity amoung leaders, not a majority, to rule. This confused the fuck out of the Brits, who created Ibo chiefs and destroyed the tribal councils.

Just after independence from the British the Ibo attempted a coup and killed off a few millions of people in a war. Nigeria, you should know if you have an email account, is home to numerous scams. They take pride in being able to pull one over on others. It's like some national pastime. Their government is completely in the shitter because every group of leaders they get steals all the money and moves out of the country.

Here's a funny story of Nigerian politics: General Babangida was a military dictator from 1985-1993 and promissed to give the country back to the people. He created two political parties (they were illegal before) and held an election. Nobody in Nigeria came to vote because they figured it was pointless, so Babangida got upset and declared the vote invalid. He then imprisoned the winner (Abiola), who "died" in jail, and appointed a different "democratic" president named Stonekan, who was then murdered. Babangida then decided to hold elections again and created five different political parties and outlawed the other two. Babangida was "selected" by all five parties as their presidential candidate. Then Babangida "died" before the elections took place.

I tend to think if you've responded to those "Please borrow my millions of dollars from here in Nigeria" emails that you'd do well to learn that guys "art".


Dagon

ICY
29th March 07, 07:43 PM
Weird - I knew a couple of people who grew up there. I think one of them moved back, maybe became postmaster or something. You know Gerald Hogrefe? He used to be involved the punk/alt music scene in Victoria in the 80s/early 90s.

Ha! That's awesome, yeah, I do. He's pretty cool, an interesting guy to talk to.

MaverickZ
29th March 07, 08:19 PM
The Igbo (Ibo) hold trickery as a virtue. Here's my Bullshido post about them. (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showpost.php?p=821306&postcount=26)



Dagon
Quit that shit and let the kid have his fantasy!

Hedgehogey
30th March 07, 01:10 AM
Err, because shitty conditions drove them to seize land and set up an alternate infrastructure? I'm not taking away anything from them, simply asking you for examples of successful non-authoritarian societies that arn't either preindustrial or in the middle of a civil war.*

Who exactly the fuck is going to be driven to fight capitalism other than those who were harmed by it? Would you prefer an insurrection led by a cadre of intellectuals, leninist-style?
Anyway, chiapas has been in a state of ceasefire for ten years now. There is continuing violence by government sponsored paramililitaries and repression by the mexican army, but no outright war.
Don't fucking tell me the conditions of a zone I spent weeks as a human rights observer in. It's gauche.


Re: The igbo, i'm not commenting on their modern society, only on the the precolonial one, so don't put words in my mouth.

Zendetta
30th March 07, 01:49 AM
LoLZ! Wake up on the wrong side of the futon, Hedge?

You asked me the question! I'm not telling you shit about Chiapas - if anything I want to ask you stuff. You menstruating or something?

If you want to go that way: Don't call me "Gauche", Bitch! (throws drink at HH)

Seriously though, I'm not faulting the good folks of Chiapas from rising up - I certainly don't expect the Gentry to stick it to the Man. That you would infer that is frankly Krazee.

Re. those Darn Igbo. You brought them up too, so now you have to deal with them. An elegant example of a basic human program: "I'm there for my Peeps, and Fuck all Y'all."

ICY
30th March 07, 02:18 AM
You said Chiapas was an invalid example. You made a ridiculous assertion.

As for the Igbo, they were fucked by western civilization, leading back to western civilization being a gigantic piece of fucking shit.

DJR
30th March 07, 02:48 AM
Anyway, chiapas has been in a state of ceasefire for ten years now. There is continuing violence by government sponsored paramililitaries and repression by the mexican army, but no outright war.


Hedge - where were you in Chiapas? I spent a couple of weeks in Oventik in summer 2003, and was there during the big gathering that summer (Aug. 8-10, I think). Pretty inspiring experience - I definitely want to go back some time.

Here's a photo I took of people arriving from other EZLN communities for the gathering. Wish I'd taken photos of the basketball tournament - a couple teams were masked up, and it would have made for some great shots:

http://myspace-951.vo.llnwd.net/01493/15/94/1493634951_l.jpg

oh, and here's more "Lego and politics' stuff:

http://www.schnews.org.uk/images/579-lego-large.jpg

Hedgehogey
30th March 07, 03:14 AM
Hedge - where were you in Chiapas? I spent a couple of weeks in Oventik in summer 2003, and was there during the big gathering that summer (Aug. 8-10, I think). Pretty inspiring experience - I definitely want to go back some time.


I was also in oventic, in 2002. Us caravanistas slept in the auditorium with the zapata mural.

Did you ever get to jump off that waterfall you can reach from the little jungle path exiting to the right?

That place is fucking steep.

DJR
30th March 07, 03:27 AM
I was also in oventic, in 2002. Us caravanistas slept in the auditorium with the zapata mural.

Did you ever get to jump off that waterfall you can reach from the little jungle path exiting to the right?

That place is fucking steep.

If it's the one I'm thinking of, I didn't jump but did go swimming at the bottom. Somebody (I think one of the Basques or Germans there) claimed that they had a snake go after them one morning there, though I suspect they might have just panicked seeing one in the water.

I stayed in one of the shacks across from the auditorium - I was doing the 'language school' thing. I actually arrived during what was apparently the first graduation from the highschool there. It was great - we got invited to what was basically the EZLN 'prom' that night. Really fun, positive atmosphere there that day...

DJR
30th March 07, 03:55 AM
I hunted around on google, and this is the waterfall I'm thinking of (I'm not sure if there were any others around) :

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/38/81171628_8359224bdd.jpg?v=0

Hedgehogey
30th March 07, 04:39 AM
Yeah, that one. That water is ice fucking cold, no way snakes are in it.

Duder! I helped put the finishing touches on that high school! It was a big deal, we finished it the day we left and there was a fiesta. I had to help dismember a pig and escort it up the mountain on a donkey's back past a government village. There was also a women's basketball tournament and one team seemed to be entirely made up of women named maria.

DJR
30th March 07, 01:16 PM
There was also a women's basketball tournament and one team seemed to be entirely made up of women named maria.

The popularity of basketball down there was kind of funny, as I think indigenous folks in Chiapas were, on average, probably the shortest group of people I've ever encountered. They kicked my ass though, and either beat or held their own against the visiting teams during the gathering in 2003 (including some pretty slick players from Mexico City and team of surprisingly tall Italian disobedienti guys).

Zendetta
30th March 07, 01:45 PM
You said Chiapas was an invalid example.

No, I think its a great example, and really inspiring. I'd love to see them succeed. I'm just sceptical as to whether people really want to cooperate like that without a tribal bond or massive societal breakdown to motivate them. The Chiapans have both.


You made a ridiculous assertion.

No, "Cracky McSlughoot has sensible, reasonable opinions" is a ridiculous assertion.


As for the Igbo, they were fucked by western civilization, leading back to western civilization being a gigantic piece of fucking shit.

I was hoping someone would find a way to blame their malfeasance on the White Devils.

DJR
30th March 07, 02:15 PM
I'm just sceptical as to whether people really want to cooperate like that without a tribal bond or massive societal breakdown to motivate them

One theoretical attempt to wrestle with these problems (i.e. the role of self-interest, etc. in a post-capitalist economy) is the idea of 'ParEcon.' I don't think it has all the answers, by any means, but it's at least an attempt to think systematically about a collectivist society that addresses some of the problems with earlier models:

http://www.zmag.org/parecon/indexnew.htm

DerAuslander108
30th March 07, 04:46 PM
If they're my Legos, they're my fucking legos, and I don't give a damn what you commie pinko bastards have to say about it.

DAYoung
30th March 07, 05:06 PM
The German boddhisatva demonstrates non-attachment.

DerAuslander108
30th March 07, 05:25 PM
Buddhist facism FTW.

Zendetta
30th March 07, 05:38 PM
LOL. That Swastika didn't come out of nowhere.

Steve
30th March 07, 05:40 PM
If they're my Legos, they're my fucking legos, and I don't give a damn what you commie pinko bastards have to say about it.

Lego Buddha Temple by Wyatt, age 11:

http://imgred.com/http://www.dzogchenlineage.org/dbf/Materials/childrens-art/lego-1.jpg
(http://www.dzogchenlineage.org/dbf/Materials/childrens-art/lego-castle.htm)

More when pic is clicked.

DAYoung
30th March 07, 05:44 PM
OMG.

DerAuslander's in the Ahnenerbe.

DerAuslander108
30th March 07, 06:44 PM
Damn. You figured me out.

AAAhmed46
30th March 07, 10:10 PM
The lego is canada fucking sucks compared to american lego.

I mean when i was a kid, we had the same freaking lego.

But now, our lego SUCKS.

ICY
31st March 07, 12:14 AM
No, I think its a great example, and really inspiring. I'd love to see them succeed. I'm just sceptical as to whether people really want to cooperate like that without a tribal bond or massive societal breakdown to motivate them.

I wonder if that matters. Maybe society SHOULD be organized around SMALL communities. VERY SMALL. That way, if you're gonna be a shit head to somebody, you still have to look them in the eye every day and recognize that you fucked them.

Furthermore:

OCEAN FALLS IS A COMMUNITY OF 50~ PEOPLE THAT I HAVE LIVED IN WHERE THE SAME SOCIAL DYNAMICS ARE IN PLAY AS IN A TRIBAL SITUATION, ALTHOUGH THE PEOPLE ARE ONLY RELATED BY A DESIRE TO LIVE THERE. IT WORKS WELL. STFU, BITCH.

Shawarma
31st March 07, 01:59 AM
Problem with that theory - What happens when the community next door consists of 51 people and they want your cattle/crops/money/women? Wouldn't this kind of dividing humanity up in very small communities merely lead to a stupid number of tribal wars without any possibility for social progress?

AAAhmed46
31st March 07, 02:10 AM
I have the vid. You want me to post it?


SEND IT TO ME!!!

ICY
31st March 07, 02:11 AM
No. It's too hard to get there. It would be too hard to take the stuff out. Human transportation technology needs to get knocked down several pegs for this to work everywhere.

Steve
31st March 07, 02:41 AM
SEND IT TO ME!!!

WTF is wrong with you?

Zendetta
31st March 07, 02:45 PM
BITCH.

Tell us more about this socialist paradise where there are no assholes...

Bukow
31st March 07, 03:34 PM
One of the huge, glaring problems with socialism on a grand scale is the problem of economic calculation. In the absence of a market, there is also an absence of a market-generated pricing mechanism. And thus all sorts of inefficiencies arise.

This was pointed out in the early decades of the last century by various Austrians, and, to my knowledge, never successfully refuted. In fact, in the 80's, some Polish communists said they should've erected a statute of Ludwig von Mises, because he foresaw what would be a centralized economy's biggest problem before any of its advocates did.

Anyone interested in this might be interested in reading Steele's From Marx to Mises: Post Capitalist Society and the Challenge of Economic Calculation.

ICY
31st March 07, 08:36 PM
Considering that the market is manipulated and twisted all the time by political bullshit from the right wing, I think your point is a good one, but applies to all governments that intervene in ANY WAY AT ALL, all the time.

WarPhalange
1st April 07, 03:10 AM
Of course. I mean, monopolies are good things, right? Who doesn't want to pay $40 dollars for a loaf of bread, when it costs 30 cents to make.

ICY
1st April 07, 03:44 AM
I think if company sizes were limited, it would not eliminate competition.

Dagon Akujin
1st April 07, 03:52 AM
I think if company sizes were limited, it would not eliminate competition.

Considering that the market is manipulated and twisted all the time by political bullshit from the right wing, I think your point is a good one, but applies to all governments that intervene in ANY WAY AT ALL, all the time.

Dagon

mrblackmagic
1st April 07, 08:54 AM
My threads amaze me as of late. It's like taking a dump in the woods, going home, and returning the next day to find a magnolia tree.

billy sol hurok
1st April 07, 09:09 AM
My threads amaze me as of late. It's like taking a dumb in the woods, going home, and returning the next day to find a magnolia tree.

Ya but its much easier taking a dumb in heer

mrblackmagic
1st April 07, 09:34 AM
My threads amaze me as of late. It's like taking a dumb in the woods, going home, and returning the next day to find a magnolia tree.

Whoops. Damn dyslexia.

Kein Haar
2nd April 07, 10:58 AM
Back to 300...

Dagon Akujin
2nd April 07, 06:17 PM
Back to 300...
Quit masturbating, sicko.

Olorin
2nd April 07, 08:41 PM
Hope the parents realize that their kids are being raised by people who use terms like "capitalist society" in casual conversation.

A professor friend of mine would get drunk and talk for hours about how the cheerleader movie Bring it On (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0204946/) was a Marxist allegory.

We nicknamed him “The Red Menace”

DerAuslander108
19th April 07, 10:32 PM
Bring It On was Marxist allegory?!?

Fuck.

Don't tell my mommy I'm a commy.