PDA

View Full Version : Thanks C-SPAN: Sam Harris discusses his book The End of Faith- Great stuff



Stick
3rd February 07, 09:01 AM
1hr 22min, thanks to C-SPAN and google video, yay!

Unlike the last lecture about religion that I posted, this is worth watching.

-8013281663903762676

Shawarma
3rd February 07, 10:02 AM
Pretty standard. Seems to parrot Dawkins, or the other way around. Don't know which. I strongly disagree with him thinking that respecting the religious beliefs of others is somehow wrong and dishonest. Not ridiculing the retarded but harmless beliefs of others, them being belief in God, Elvis or purple unicorns, falls in the category of "Not being a dick for no reason" as far as I'm concerned. It aggravates me that the harmless and peaceful people of faith I know are being pissed on by him because they happen to suffer from harmless delusions about a beard in the sky.

Oh, and fuck the arrogant fuck in the ass AND mouth for saying that "Those who disagree with me regarding the core of Islam being religiously imperialist have not read the qur'an and are silly." I've read the qur'an. I disagree with him. What it says depends on how you read it, the texts do not support his position when read at face value and as a whole rather than cherrypicking the offensive passages and ignoring the passages that directly contradict them and doesn't mention the commandments that you be GOOD. Same with the bible.
That's not even mentioning that arguing that religion is good/evil based on what the holy books say completely leaves out the fact that NOBODY actually follows their holy books to the letter, so citing a lot of the passages that support your position is pretty pointless.
If your goal is to prove the evil of religion, it would IMO be better to list the horrors being committed in the name of religion today and the people who commit them. This would still discount the charity and consolation that faith also brings though.

Why do all these godsmackers concentrate their ire against the Judaic religions? Where's the ranting against Hindus, Shintoists, Zoroastrians, Asatro, Buddhists and others? I demand to see more raving against the retarded beliefs.

Somehow, I never, ever feel that my concerns about the godsmacking are adressed by any of the godsmackers. They always address their ravings to OTHER atheists AGAINST the people of faith.
Now, take me. I'm pretty unconcerned about God. I recognize the possibility that he could exist, that he simply erases all the evidence that he does exist just to dick with people, I just refuse to submit to him on philosophical grounds. I don't know which religious texts has t3h r34l wing chun, they all seem pretty unlikely to me with all the self-contradiction among them.
I just don't feel that raging against "religious beliefs" as a whole is neccesary at all. Raging against religious hardliners with intent to disrupt your life, yes, but painting all the Christians who never want anything besides going to church on sundays with the same brush because Fred Phelps advocates the destruction of America is pure assholery.
I don't feel that any of the godsmackers speak to ME. I'm don't take offense at people hatin' on G-D. He's been around a while, he can take it. He sure as hell will get the last laugh if he exists. I take offense at those of his followers getting cockslapped for no good reason.

What I want to know is: What is the point of raving against religion when you also insult the delusional but also harmless and often beneficial and benign beliefs of the non-insane VAST majority of the faithful? Why not make it clear that you are raving against the harmful aspects of faith rather than wanting to destroy faith as a whole? Do nobody have the same concerns as I do, or do you just not know any people of faith who aren't total assholes?

Tenshi has a very valid reason to be hateful of religion because of the stem-cell thing. What's everybody elses reason?

Shawarma
3rd February 07, 10:10 AM
I think he actually sorta defeats his own point at the end. If 88% of Americans are religious and believe in a personal saviour, how come the US doesn't resemble Taliban-ruled Afghanistan? Wouldn't that be logical?

He discounts the fact that religion is not static. The holy books are (mostly) but the religions aren't.

Anna Kovacs
3rd February 07, 11:36 PM
I don't hate all religious people. Just some of them :) I think religious people as a whole are deluded.

Oh yeh, a lot of religious people hate me just because I like to get a little poo-nanny from time to time.

DAYoung
3rd February 07, 11:46 PM
I like to get a little poo-nanny from time to time.

Size doesn't count.

Anna Kovacs
3rd February 07, 11:46 PM
I'm 15 minutes in and this is great.


Edit: Big poonanny is fine to, i don't discriminate :)

"Geez you got a big pussy. Geez you got a big pussy."

"Why'd you say that twice?"


"I didn't"

DAYoung
4th February 07, 12:03 AM
Great scene. Great film.

Anytime...

Anna Kovacs
4th February 07, 12:57 AM
Watched the whole vid, little bit of drag towards the end of the lecture but the questions that followed were good.

WarPhalange
4th February 07, 12:59 AM
I think he actually sorta defeats his own point at the end. If 88% of Americans are religious and believe in a personal saviour, how come the US doesn't resemble Taliban-ruled Afghanistan? Wouldn't that be logical?

He discounts the fact that religion is not static. The holy books are (mostly) but the religions aren't.

Let's see... Europe a few hundred years ago ring any bells? Christianity dominates and is secure. It's not going anywhere. Now Islam wants a piece of the action (i.e. wealthy countries and not to be shit on all the time). Next: Scientology.

WarPhalange
4th February 07, 01:48 AM
I'm about 40 minutes into it, and this guy is giving me a lot of ammo for the next time I argue about religion. Also, I won't back down anymore if people start saying "that's my opinion blah blah".

Question!
4th February 07, 02:13 AM
So I haven't watched the vid, can we just keep talking about Arnie and Predator?

WarPhalange
4th February 07, 02:28 AM
Well, I finished it. He's a bit of an Orientophile, though.

Shawarma
4th February 07, 02:42 AM
Let's see... Europe a few hundred years ago ring any bells? Christianity dominates and is secure. It's not going anywhere. Now Islam wants a piece of the action (i.e. wealthy countries and not to be shit on all the time). Next: Scientology.
I don't get it. What's your point?

Stick
4th February 07, 03:36 AM
Pretty standard. Seems to parrot Dawkins, or the other way around. Don't know which. I strongly disagree with him thinking that respecting the religious beliefs of others is somehow wrong and dishonest.

It is dishonest, just because I keep my mouth shut when a member of the family or some kid on campus asks me if I've accepted Jesus H Christ as my personal savior so as to prevent ym eternal damnation doesn't mean I do or should respect their absurd position. It means I'm letting them dominate the conversation and not challenging their assertion that unless I think the way they do I will burn in hell forever and am in some way less than human. They aren't holding back at all, they don't care if I am in insulted or if they're trampling my beliefs- why exactly the fuck should I show them the courtesy they deny me?


Not ridiculing the retarded but harmless beliefs of others, them being belief in God, Elvis or purple unicorns, falls in the category of "Not being a dick for no reason" as far as I'm concerned.

As someone whose medical condition is still not treatable perhaps in part due to the absurd belief of these people's irrational belief, no this shit is not harmless.


It aggravates me that the harmless and peaceful people of faith I know are being pissed on by him because they happen to suffer from harmless delusions about a beard in the sky.

It aggravates me that the religious moderates of the world look me in the ey and tell me I should respect the opinion of some ancient preacher who tells me a condom is a tool of evil and that stem cell research is an unacceptable culling of souls.


Oh, and fuck the arrogant fuck in the ass AND mouth for saying that "Those who disagree with me regarding the core of Islam being religiously imperialist have not read the qur'an and are silly." I've read the qur'an. I disagree with him.

You're free to disagree, but that does not change the fact that he has very good points.

All religious teachings are not created equal. If no faith is no more wrong or right than the other- an idea tiredly trotted out by appeasers and religious moderates- then by all rights there should be scores upon scores of Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers striking out at their Chinese over lords because of their econimic and social dissadvantages.

The Big Three all easily provide scriptural shelter for deplorable violence and horrid behavior unacceptable by modern standards.


What it says depends on how you read it, the texts do not support his position when read at face value and as a whole rather than cherrypicking the offensive passages and ignoring the passages that directly contradict them and doesn't mention the commandments that you be GOOD.

Actually, at face a lot of it does support violence.

Stop pretending the "kill the unbelievers" do not exist.


That's not even mentioning that arguing that religion is good/evil based on what the holy books say completely leaves out the fact that NOBODY actually follows their holy books to the letter, so citing a lot of the passages that support your position is pretty pointless.

Citing a bunch of passages that support your position while ignoring those that do not..... hmmmm, who the fuck else does that- oh yeah, the faithful!

These books, these tomes written by God himself, provide people with all the righteous armor they need to do as they bloody well please.

You criticising Harris' points for ignoring "the good parts"- he does acknowledge that some religious people do in fact do good work- really means shit all to me when you consider that while in your words Harris is being a dick, people on the opposite side of the fence who do the same thing are fucking murdering people and contributing to a culture of ignorance and fear that retards human progress.


If your goal is to prove the evil of religion, it would IMO be better to list the horrors being committed in the name of religion today and the people who commit them. This would still discount the charity and consolation that faith also brings though.

He does, but then any jackass can do that. It is far more important to point out that unquestioningly "respecting" someone's religious faith simply bcause its their faith permits the more radical and nakedly destructive forms of religion to propogate and do harm.


Why do all these godsmackers concentrate their ire against the Judaic religions? Where's the ranting against Hindus, Shintoists, Zoroastrians, Asatro, Buddhists and others? I demand to see more raving against the retarded beliefs.

For one thing, we live in the West. The Judaic religions absolutly dwarf the Hindu/Buddhist & their various sects in the English speaking world.

Furthermore, while yes there is the ocassional ragin Buddhist or hindu, you cannot deny that the vast majority of religious violence comes from the Big Three.

You just fucking can't.


Somehow, I never, ever feel that my concerns about the godsmacking are adressed by any of the godsmackers. They always address their ravings to OTHER atheists AGAINST the people of faith.

I don't care about your concerns that I may or may not be a dick.

If me getting in the face of the faithful points out to them that they are standing in the way of helping me, helping people who can't walk, helping people who might otherwise die by year's end and that they are doing so without real reason- reason as in reasonable and rational- then I couldn't care less about your gentile sensibilities.


Now, take me. I'm pretty unconcerned about God. I recognize the possibility that he could exist, that he simply erases all the evidence that he does exist just to dick with people, I just refuse to submit to him on philosophical grounds. I don't know which religious texts has t3h r34l wing chun, they all seem pretty unlikely to me with all the self-contradiction among them.
I just don't feel that raging against "religious beliefs" as a whole is neccesary at all. Raging against religious hardliners with intent to disrupt your life, yes, but painting all the Christians who never want anything besides going to church on sundays with the same brush because Fred Phelps advocates the destruction of America is pure assholery.

Watch the damned video again.


I don't feel that any of the godsmackers speak to ME. I'm don't take offense at people hatin' on G-D. He's been around a while, he can take it. He sure as hell will get the last laugh if he exists. I take offense at those of his followers getting cockslapped for no good reason.

Well, you're getting some attention now. I hope you're happy.

Whether the religiously moderate harass me in public or knock on my door on Saturday morning is irrelevant. These people still have a tendancy to vote in part on religious lines- the leader of this country HAS to believe in the Big Beard in the Sky or he won't get elected.

Fuck that.


What I want to know is: What is the point of raving against religion when you also insult the delusional but also harmless and often beneficial and benign beliefs of the non-insane VAST majority of the faithful? Why not make it clear that you are raving against the harmful aspects of faith rather than wanting to destroy faith as a whole? Do nobody have the same concerns as I do, or do you just not know any people of faith who aren't total assholes?

Watch the video again.

Meekly giving up when someone says "that's just the way it is and there's nothing you can say to change my mind" is the sort of bullshit that leaves irrational thought unchallenged, that prevents you from getting at the root of the truly dangerous nut jobs out there who are certain that God wants him to die in a glorious conflagration of dead hethens.


Tenshi has a very valid reason to be hateful of religion because of the stem-cell thing. What's everybody elses reason?

Can you honestly tell me you've never had a family member with cancer, crippling injury, AIDs, parkinsons, alzheimer's, blindness, or other significant injury/defect? There's no reason EVERYONE shouldn't be as outraged as I am.

The religious right in this country is actively engaged in retarding scientific progress and the betterment of mankind. Opposing stem cell research. Spewing Intelligent Design at anyone with ears and denouncing Evolution as a tool of the devil. Supporting foreing policy with an eye towards the second coming of Jesus Christ and the fucking apocalypse....

You'll excuse me if my patience runs thin.

AAAhmed46
4th February 07, 03:47 AM
Stop pretending the "kill the unbelievers" do not exist.

Please post the whole verse, and it's tafseer, and all the different translations.

Because right after that it says ''but if they desist, leave them be'' or something similar depending on the translation.

It's pretty clear that it's talking in terms of self defence.



All religious teachings are not created equal. If no faith is no more wrong or right than the other- an idea tiredly trotted out by appeasers and religious moderates- then by all rights there should be scores upon scores of Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers striking out at their Chinese over lords because of their econimic and social dissadvantages.


And look up the lives of some previous kamekaze pilots of world war 2.

Religion was a factor in the whole kamekaze thing.

Buddhist's actually ran thier planes into ships because priests told them too.
Shinto principles of faith mixed with buddhist. But dont take my word for it, look it up yourself.

Also the role of the Budhist church and taxation in japan. They used thier political power to make sure they dont have to pay taxes to the government, and the nobles used thie rpower to make sure the same. Thus the taxation fell on the hands of the peasants.

Who not being able to take it, attached themselves often to rich houses. IE the birth of japanese serfs.

WarPhalange
4th February 07, 03:51 AM
I don't get it. What's your point?

My point is you're an idiot. It's only logical that you of all people wouldn't understand that.

That's the definition of an idiot, after all.

Stick
4th February 07, 03:55 AM
Please post the whole verse, and it's tafseer, and all the different translations

No.

Assuming no such verse exists, how do you explain the continuing religious support and reasoning for violence? If no where in the Koran is there a verse that empowers believers to kill nonbelievers, how the fuck do people continue to get away with justifying their violence with God? And don't say it's a lack of education, you know these people can and do read for themselves.

Furthermore, if these books are the perfect words of a loving and all knowing god, how could they possibly be twisted towards violence? Could not an all knowing and seeing God word his own holy books in such a way as to prevent missinterpritation and abuse? If God truly loved us and was in fact perfect, would he not trip all over his fucking self to ensure that his own love for us could in no way be twisted to do harm?

Oh wait, that's right, a thousand years ago wrath was an acceptable part of perfection- silly me.

EDIT:

In response to your edits.


Because right after that it says ''but if they desist, leave them be'' or something similar depending on the translation.

It's pretty clear that it's talking in terms of self defence.

If they stop what? Stop not believing in Allah? Stop being killed for not believing?

That's not clearly in self defense at all.

Also, do you see the problem with bringing up Imperial Japanese propensity for excusing horrific deplorable violence with superstition when you are arguing for the continued existance of faith.

For the record, Japan had an incredibly strong military/warrior tradition and incredible sense of honor & duty. Yes, they managed to apply Zen to flying themselves into carriers, they'd been applying zen to beheading for centuries.

As for Shinto, it's one of the last ancient "pagan" animist religions that is now little more than superstition. Yes it's true many religious practices are still observed today, but you'd be hard pressed to find the truly faithful. Again, pointing to shinto does not in any way help your posiion.

Also, while you could surely look back and say "oh but the thugee killed people all the itme, and shaolin monks, lol!", I again ask where are the Buddhist suicide bombers today? By all apologist and moderate thinking there should be jsut as many Buddhist suicide bombers taking out the PLA as there are Palestinian jihadis going after the IDF and club goers.

WarPhalange
4th February 07, 04:02 AM
Wrath, and slavery.

Stick
4th February 07, 04:10 AM
And the stoning of faggots and insolent children.

AAAhmed46
4th February 07, 04:10 AM
No.

Assuming no such verse exists, how do you explain the continuing religious support and reasoning for violence? If no where in the Koran is there a verse that empowers believers to kill nonbelievers, how the fuck do people continue to get away with justifying their violence with God? And don't say it's a lack of education, you know these people can and do read for themselves.

Furthermore, if these books are the perfect words of a loving and all knowing god, how could they possibly be twisted towards violence? Could not an all knowing and seeing God word his own holy books in such a way as to prevent missinterpritation and abuse? If God truly loved us and was in fact perfect, would he not trip all over his fucking self to ensure that his own love for us could in no way be twisted to do harm?

Oh wait, that's right, a thousand years ago wrath was an acceptable part of perfection- silly me.

How can Neitchze or howver you spell his name, from what ive read of him, did not call for killing people for the sake of progress per say.

yet how did Nazism arise with some of it's principles as it's basis?


And it IS ignorance, most have never picked up a quran in thier life. They read school books, some are college educated, but never picked up a book on islamic theology, they just have blind faith. And are taught to.

And THERE in lies the problem.

Blind faith without looking at what one has faith in.


Islam does not advocate acts of terrorism.

Shawarma
4th February 07, 04:21 AM
why exactly the fuck should I show them the courtesy they deny me?
-First of all, you have a right to get in the face of religious tards getting in your face. I didn't say you didn't. Secondly, why'd you even bother debating these mouth-breathers?


As someone whose medical condition is still not treatable perhaps in part due to the absurd belief of these people's irrational belief, no this shit is not harmless.
-Fair point, as I acknowledged in my previous post.


It aggravates me that the religious moderates of the world look me in the ey and tell me I should respect the opinion of some ancient preacher who tells me a condom is a tool of evil and that stem cell research is an unacceptable culling of souls.
-What do you gain from disrespecting their stupid beliefs? On a personal level.


You're free to disagree, but that does not change the fact that he has very good points.

All religious teachings are not created equal. If no faith is no more wrong or right than the other- an idea tiredly trotted out by appeasers and religious moderates- then by all rights there should be scores upon scores of Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers striking out at their Chinese over lords because of their econimic and social dissadvantages.

The Big Three all easily provide scriptural shelter for deplorable violence and horrid behavior unacceptable by modern standards.

Actually, at face a lot of it does support violence.

Stop pretending the "kill the unbelievers" do not exist.
-I'm not. The koran is all for mass murder and grievious abuses against nonbelievers. The only question is WHEN it calls for it, only in self defense of the faith or because of religious imperialism. Should you kill nonbelievers all the time, or just when they attack you?
My beef is that Harris says "Nobody who has read the qur'an can possibly disagree with my interpretation of it." Arrogant, stupid and wrong.

Citing a bunch of passages that support your position while ignoring those that do not..... hmmmm, who the fuck else does that- oh yeah, the faithful!
-Indeed. I include those in my argument. In fact, it's nigh-on impossible to cite scripture without directly contradicting yourself many times, which is why I maintain that what the holy books actually SAY is not as important as what the people of faith DO. I, for one, strongly doubt that the Jesus described in the Holy Bible would be thrilled at the idea of the 700 Club making millions when he struggled against people whoring out God for money and explicitly said that rich people don't go to heaven. And yet Pat Robertson is considered the epitome of christiany goodness by many people.

These books, these tomes written by God himself, provide people with all the righteous armor they need to do as they bloody well please.

You criticising Harris' points for ignoring "the good parts"- he does acknowledge that some religious people do in fact do good work- really means shit all to me when you consider that while in your words Harris is being a dick, people on the opposite side of the fence who do the same thing are fucking murdering people and contributing to a culture of ignorance and fear that retards human progress.
-And what about the people on the other side of the fence who do NOT murder people and don't want to keep you from getting treatment you want? Harris is acting as if people of faith are a monogenous group with the same opinions. They're not. He's painting them with the same brush. Unfair, if you ask me, but again, you have a valid reason for disliking faith.

He does, but then any jackass can do that. It is far more important to point out that unquestioningly "respecting" someone's religious faith simply bcause its their faith permits the more radical and nakedly destructive forms of religion to propogate and do harm.
-I take it you're referring to the old idea that extremism grows in the soil of moderates? Another fair point. Not sure how to address it or whether it's true.


For one thing, we live in the West. The Judaic religions absolutly dwarf the Hindu/Buddhist & their various sects in the English speaking world.
-Still, they could at least throw in a "Buddha is a fatass!" insult in there somewhere.

Furthermore, while yes there is the ocassional ragin Buddhist or hindu, you cannot deny that the vast majority of religious violence comes from the Big Three.

You just fucking can't.
-I'm not. With honourable mention going to the Hindus in India and Sri Lanka, which is mainly unreported by the media.


I don't care about your concerns that I may or may not be a dick.

If me getting in the face of the faithful points out to them that they are standing in the way of helping me, helping people who can't walk, helping people who might otherwise die by year's end and that they are doing so without real reason- reason as in reasonable and rational- then I couldn't care less about your gentile sensibilities.
-Suit yourself. Just a question of whether it's needed or helpful at all. Challenging and insulting every Christian in the country, I mean.

Well, you're getting some attention now. I hope you're happy.

Whether the religiously moderate harass me in public or knock on my door on Saturday morning is irrelevant. These people still have a tendancy to vote in part on religious lines- the leader of this country HAS to believe in the Big Beard in the Sky or he won't get elected.

Fuck that.



Watch the video again.

Meekly giving up when someone says "that's just the way it is and there's nothing you can say to change my mind" is the sort of bullshit that leaves irrational thought unchallenged, that prevents you from getting at the root of the truly dangerous nut jobs out there who are certain that God wants him to die in a glorious conflagration of dead hethens.
-I'm not advocating meekly giving up. I'm advocating not going out of your way to be a dick towards the people of faith who do not want to control you but just want to live in peace and pray to their sky-deity.


Can you honestly tell me you've never had a family member with cancer, crippling injury, AIDs, parkinsons, alzheimer's, blindness, or other significant injury/defect? There's no reason EVERYONE shouldn't be as outraged as I am.

The religious right in this country is actively engaged in retarding scientific progress and the betterment of mankind. Opposing stem cell research. Spewing Intelligent Design at anyone with ears and denouncing Evolution as a tool of the devil. Supporting foreing policy with an eye towards the second coming of Jesus Christ and the fucking apocalypse....
-Completely agree with this. The real fight for you is, IMO, not against the common evangelist on the street, but against God In Government, which is a travesty.
Sorry, I haven't the patience to figure out how to make this look nice.

One major point that I'm going to have to concede to you is that you live in America and I don't, meaning your obnoxious Christians are ten times as vocal, powerful and numerous as they are here. This would certainly explain why American atheists are so aggro.

WarPhalange
4th February 07, 04:23 AM
My beef is that Harris says "Nobody who has read the qur'an can possibly disagree with my interpretation of it." Arrogant, stupid and wrong.

LOL

Why would you need to interpret the word of God? Isn't he perfect?

bob
4th February 07, 04:34 AM
Sorry, I haven't the patience to figure out how to make this look nice.

One major point that I'm going to have to concede to you is that you live in America and I don't, meaning your obnoxious Christians are ten times as vocal, powerful and numerous as they are here. This would certainly explain why American atheists are so aggro.

Europe didn't become secular by accident. It wouldn't have happened if people had just said: "Meh, let them say what they want, they're just deluded."

Shawarma
4th February 07, 05:17 AM
Sure, God is perfect. He just really sucks at writing instructional manuals.

And I personally thought that stuff like WW1 and 2 had as much, if not more, to do with Europe becoming as secular as it is today rather than confronting Christianity everywhere you find it. The very mentality of the European Christian often differs a lot from the Americans.

bob
4th February 07, 06:26 AM
And I personally thought that stuff like WW1 and 2 had as much, if not more, to do with Europe becoming as secular as it is today rather than confronting Christianity everywhere you find it.

Could you elaborate on this?

Shawarma
4th February 07, 06:52 AM
Pretty common idea, in Europe at least, that the exceptionally pointless trench wars in WW1 had a lot to do with Europeans starting questioning God to a greater extent and inspired a whole new generation of atheists. It would make sense when looking at USA being a lot more holy today, because the US never had a truly grim war fought on its native soil. (massacres on indians don't count.)

Anna Kovacs
4th February 07, 02:39 PM
Shawarma should watch the video because the dude explains quite eloquently why religious moderates are bad.

AAAhmed46
4th February 07, 02:41 PM
Deleted.

Shawarma
4th February 07, 02:55 PM
He does? I seem to recall him glancing over them briefly and going on to attack the extremist beliefs once again. The harmless people of faith are consistently ignored by aggro atheists and have to suffer from being tarred with the same brush as the religious neanderthals.

He also makes a personal judgement about "mainstream religious people" and what they supposedly believe. He's a judge on what the "mainstream" is now as well?

AAAhmed46
4th February 07, 02:55 PM
The only reason there you dont see more athiest extremists is because well, there are so few athiests compared to muslims and christians.

Muslims outnumber christians, they do overall. Roughly 1 billion world wide and growing. Thus the large overall population means more crazy fucks as well.


Christians are not as numerious but still there are a shit load. So....the crazies there show up as well, because there are alot of them. Plus, group polarization, when a group of like minded individuals stay together all the time., the overall general opinion becomes more extreme.


Now compared to muslims and christians, how many athiests are there? Not enough to have some TRULY vocal crazies. Not yet.

Besides, athiesm is a luxury of countries with high standards of living. Good luck trying to find little africans who dont believe in what thier parents taught them, they have more pressing matters then to think about philosophy.

ww1 was an exeption because they already came from high standards of living, pushed into something horrid as fuck, then came back. And saw no meaning in it. They went from having the high life when they had the time to think about such things then didnt, then went to war, then back again. And then actually DID utilize the time to think about god and his existence.
EDIT: ANd because he went through all that shit for apparently nothing, he tended to think life had no meaning. Cant really blame the poor poor bastards.

Thus the birth of existentialism, was post ww1 and ww2.





HOWEVER: I would like to add this, i tend to get along with athiests alot better then i get along with people of religion simply because athiests tend to be less judgemental, and bit more openminded.
Particularly agnostics and existentialists. They just dont give a fuck. And it's damn fun.
Most however respect me and my beliefs, they dont go out of the way to insult me.

AAAhmed46
4th February 07, 03:03 PM
What about libertarianism?


Does Phrost have the potential to nuts and pull of an oklahoma bombing thing?

Does libertarianism even push for stuff like patriotism? Notice how when someone cirtiques america, libertarians get really reall pissed of.


But isnt the belief that the State it self is oppressive and man should be free to own private property and have complletele liberties?

So when making fun of the government, for some reason libertarians take this as insulting america.


But insulting the government is insulting the state. So why get all pissy?

AAAhmed46
4th February 07, 03:08 PM
He does? I seem to recall him glancing over them briefly and going on to attack the extremist beliefs once again. The harmless people of faith are consistently ignored by aggro atheists and have to suffer from being tarred with the same brush as the religious neanderthals.

He also makes a personal judgement about "mainstream religious people" and what they supposedly believe. He's a judge on what the "mainstream" is now as well?


And he made no statements about buddhist Priests in Vietnam who would commit self immolation during the vietnam war in protest.

Or the continued use of the chaste system in india even today in this day and age.

Shawarma
4th February 07, 03:18 PM
Self immolation is pretty wacky, but doesn't harm anybody but the burnee and the guy that has to clean it up afterwards.

Caste system is extremely ancient, and I'm far from certain it's not a CULTURAL Indian thing rather than a RELIGIOUS thing. Then again, the Pakistanis don't seem to follow the caste system.

Shawarma
4th February 07, 03:23 PM
Ahmed, Muslim countries have generally progressed less socially than their Christian and Jewish counterparts. Stuff that was commonplace in Christian countries 1000 years ago like flogging and killing infidels, gruesome discrimination against women and persecution of deviants is still commonplace in many Muslim countries because they didn't have the enlightenment and secular liberal movements that have made the religious practices of western countries so toothless and tame today. Lots of people still live as if Karbala was yesterday.

This is not because the Muslim religion is neccesarily more barbarous than Christianity or Judaism. Have a look in the OT for clarification. It's a case that the SOCIETIES which are Muslim are less evolved.

Stick
4th February 07, 04:30 PM
I love it.

Me: "What can we do to stem the tide of religious extremism and work towards human progress and the cause of rational thought?"

Ahmed: "Well, I'm sure there'd be more atheist extremists if there were only more of you! Demographics FTW! Oh and you wanted suicide bombers from Buddhism, those monks totally lit themselves on fire in protest!"

Me: "Excuse me?"

For the record, sacrificing oneself by self immolation- harming no one else- is so far removed from suicide bombing it isn't even funny, ya know, if either of those things were ever truly funny.

Anna Kovacs
4th February 07, 05:50 PM
[email protected] athiest extemeist.

Athiests don't care about religion so we can't exactly be extreme. We only get annoyed with people. No athiest is going to blow someone up in the name of not believing something. We just like to shake our heads in sad pity and occasionally point and laugh.

Anna Kovacs
4th February 07, 05:51 PM
I"M GOING TO BLOW MYSELF UP IN THE NAME OF.....NOT GOD.

DAYoung
4th February 07, 06:10 PM
The big danger for atheism was as a transformation from religiosity to something else. Without Big Papa to give them values and beliefs, some atheists became violent and/or decadent (this combined with some of the more clumsy philosophies of the West, e.e. naive positivism).

But...

The problem then and now wasn't atheism - it was a lack of well-developed personal ethics; a free and responsible self-cultivation.

Which, of course, remains a problem with theists and atheists alike today. Theism just supports it by deferral to God, scripture and church.

bob
4th February 07, 07:31 PM
I"M GOING TO BLOW MYSELF UP IN THE NAME OF.....NOT GOD.

As a side note...



Modern suicide bombing as a political tool can be traced back to the assassination of Czar Alexander II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_II_of_Russia) of Russia in 1881. Alexander fell victim to a Nihilist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilist_movement) plot. While driving on one of the central streets of Saint Petersburg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Petersburg), near the Winter Palace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_Palace), he was mortally wounded by the explosion of hand-made grenades and died a few hours afterwards. The Tzar was killed by the Pole Ignacy Hryniewiecki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignacy_Hryniewiecki), who died while intentionally exploding the bomb during the attack.


The first modern suicide bombing was commited by atheists. Who'd a thunk it. This is really just the exception that proves the rule though.

Stick
4th February 07, 07:43 PM
Ve are nihilists, Lebowski, ve believe nothing!

Anna Kovacs
4th February 07, 07:46 PM
I would suggest that that was more politically motivated then (anti)religious.

Politics and religion get tied up a lot but I don't think they're the same thing.

As an athiest I might become a terrorist if say all our laws were made super religous. But even then my terrorism would be politically motivated rather thenthe equivilent of a religious thing.

AAAhmed46
4th February 07, 08:21 PM
Well it always starts of politcally motivated then turns into something else.

The PLO was orginially a nationalisttic organization, but it became a religious extremist organiztion and all other nut cases followed suit.
EDIT: Sometime in the eighties is when this happened....

The Tamil tigers started out as politcal/nationalistic, but became religious extrmists as well.

Although one can still say they are very nationally motivated.

Anna Kovacs
4th February 07, 08:30 PM
Well the thing is there's not really any way I can conceive that someone can twist atheism as a "belief system" to condone killing.

Certainly an atheist can kill and certainly one can justify it to themselves. But I have a hard time picturing someone killing someone in the name of their not being a god.

Anna Kovacs
4th February 07, 08:33 PM
IE if I was in Iran or some other suckatastic assbackards place I might lash out at the people in power who are ruling based on religion, but it's still not the same as killing for my belief system or using my belief system to justify killing. It's simply a matter of they can shove their dumb veils up their ass.

AAAhmed46
4th February 07, 08:34 PM
The vast majority of woman in the middle east do not wear viels or even headscarfs. This is at odds with general images in the news.



EDIT:
Besides, communism is by it's very roots athiestic in it's nature, but look what stalin did. One man with great power who just happened to be a paranoid fuck ended up ordering the deaths of many many people.

Most communists, the VAST majority of communists are not violent people. If you've met any, you would know that.

Yeah some are dick heads.

But not violent. But in the name of communism, look what happened? In the name of progress.

Uzbeckistan(wrooong spelling) is strictly athiestic, there is heavy religious oppression, they make sure christians(orthodox) and muslims do not practice openly or have beards and what not. People have been killed and imprisoned.

Often this is looked at as a communist government. But it isnt. It simply is a secular dictatorship.

WarPhalange
4th February 07, 08:36 PM
Those whores.

Anna Kovacs
4th February 07, 08:36 PM
It's nice that they're moving forward but all the same it's a dumb idea and the middle east sucks :)

AAAhmed46
4th February 07, 09:00 PM
It's nice that they're moving forward but all the same it's a dumb idea and the middle east sucks :)

Actually it's been like that for a long long time.

In post 9/11 the use of the headscarf and viel has RISEN because everyone got pissed off at the reaction to it. But still, despite this fact, the vast majority to not wear head scarfs or veils.

Besides, YOUR government helped create this. The pro-american Shah of Iran was overthrown in the islamic revolution. People hated that guys ass, because he was a dick.

Unfortunatly, they had to put in a parliament of old fucked up fogies.... who are dicks. Also remember that the only reason thier still in power is because of the way the system is set up, more then once, again and again people of Iran have tried to push toward a more secular approche to thier govenrment, but the council is hard to break of the government.


Now look at turkey. Thier pretty much a secular country in every way and form, and the majority of the population is muslim. Indonesia has had a female leading it's nation for a time. They dont have as much of a problem with keeping thier extrmists on a leash. They had a female leader.Bangladesh has a female leader.

Look at malaysia, very very modern and has a population that has a muslim majority. They also suppressed the power of religion and state, made it seperate.
In malaysia, the head of the central bank is a woman. So are the head of attorney general and soliciter general of the space agency.
India, probably has one of the biggest muslim populations in the world, it has woman in parliament in high political positions.
In 1998, a woman was in the Iranian Vice president: Masoumeh Ebtekar, criticized the taliban LONG before american critisism in it's treatment of woman,.And this is IRAN were talking about.
Iran also had a pparliament who also had a higher proportaion of woman than the US senate.
Across the muslim world female enrolment in universities and colleges are very high, as is the number of female proffetionals and professors.

Saudi arabia is probably the worst. But i would like to point out that saudi arabia is known for killing many many imams and Clerics and muslim scholars who say the regime is unislamic. For instance, the ban against woman driving is heavily critiqued OUTSIDE of Saudi arabia, by IMAMS Inside however, to critique it means death. Hence only Imams that support the government really grow prosperious in saudi arabia.


America has yet to elect a female president.



I am NOT saying that the middle east is better then america.

It isn't, woman still have alot more rights then they do in the middle east, america is a democracy, while the vast majority of the middle east is not unfortunatly. Jordan, Saudi arabia, and Iran have very abrasive rules.

But saudi arabia and Jordan get alot of political support by the states, when they should NOT. And iran is the way it is because of a political mess created inside thier political system. Hell talk to iranians, most are very secular minded.
EDIT: Spelling repair: IRan is that way because of how thier politcal system is setup.



Canada is better then america however.

Because canada is awsome. My home country!

Anna Kovacs
4th February 07, 09:44 PM
In the end the world is a worser place because adults belive in fairy tales and govern based on them.

"My" country included.

AAAhmed46
4th February 07, 09:53 PM
Conclusion:

Seperation of religion and state make for a good government.

Religion should be a largely personal thing.

Anna Kovacs
4th February 07, 10:06 PM
Yes, i agree with that. Unfortunettly I wonder if a person in a position of power is even capable of seperating their religion from their governing. Afterall your belief system builds a huge basis for the way you look at life and reality.

AAAhmed46
4th February 07, 10:13 PM
The problem is when you push it on others.

If someone is a christian leader and they push creationism in the school system, well thats a problem.

Why? Because your forcing your personal views on others.

Hell look at a quote by Pierre Elliot Trudeu(former liberal prime minister of canada, deceased) on homosexuality: "If people want to sin in thier bedrooms, it's thier own business. Not mine." he promoted gay rights.

But he himself was a christian. Clealry his own views were different on the matter, but he did not force them.




THAT i think is a key attribute in a good leader.

Unfortunatly, i doubt many leaders know how to seperate thier own views without forcing them upon others.


Really sucks i think.

Zendetta
4th February 07, 10:36 PM
Conclusion:

Seperation of religion and state make for a good government.

Religion should be a largely personal thing.

Its no accident that Turkey is less shitty than most of the middle east.

AAAhmed46
4th February 07, 10:41 PM
Isn't turkey considered europian?

mrblackmagic
5th February 07, 08:02 AM
[email protected] athiest extemeist.

Red Chinese?

Khmer Rouge?

Stick
5th February 07, 11:14 AM
When commies kill you "for the un-god" is rarely the battle cry on their lips.

AAAhmed46
5th February 07, 03:44 PM
Actually, uzbek's, their pretty much along those lines, the government that is.

The people vary however.

Though ive always thought that the Uzbek government used that as nothing more then as excuse to tighten thier already rediculious level of control over the common people.

EDIT:

However, if you've met any communists, REAL communists, not socialists....they are not bad people at all.

Most communists are good people. I dont agree with thier political philosophy, but thier often painted like thier all like Stalin or something.

WarPhalange
5th February 07, 09:12 PM
I could totally see myself killing people because they believe a giant faerie is going to damn me to hell if I don't do as they say.

Anna Kovacs
5th February 07, 09:20 PM
Sometimes it's tempting but I can't see myself getting worked up that much about it unless they were doing something annoying based on their belief system.

WarPhalange
5th February 07, 09:53 PM
Like knocking on your door or handing out free Bibles?

Anna Kovacs
5th February 07, 10:20 PM
I actually dont mind those guys so much.

I was thinking more along the lines of religion based harassment against me and my girlfriend. Not that I wouldnt crack some skulls over pretty much any type of harassment but I had to find a way to work religion in there somehow.

WarPhalange
5th February 07, 10:28 PM
Next time someone tries to give me a free Bible I'm going to tell him "A trade? Well here, you can take some of my garbage in exchange." and take a big dump in his hands.

DAYoung
6th February 07, 02:55 AM
The first modern suiciie bombing was commited by atheists. Who'd a thunk it. This is really just the exception that proves the rule though.

That's precisely the kind of thing I was thinking about.

Shawarma
6th February 07, 10:45 AM
Its no accident that Turkey is less shitty than most of the middle east.
Its secularism MAY have something to do with that fact, but Turkey's an old empire that used to be hugely powerful as well as advanced. That could very well also have something to do with it.