PDA

View Full Version : What Iraq is really about. Or goodbye democracy



patfromlogan
24th June 03, 09:41 PM
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2319.htm#REBUILDING
The president's real goal in Iraq

Bookman is the deputy editorial page editor of The Atlanta Journal-
Constitution


By JAY BOOKMAN


The official story on Iraq has never made sense. The connection that the Bush administration has tried to draw between Iraq and al-Qaida has always seemed contrived and artificial. In fact, it was hard to believe that smart people in the Bush administration would start a major war based on such flimsy evidence.
The pieces just didn't fit. Something else had to be going on; something was missing.

In recent days, those missing pieces have finally begun to fall into place. As it turns out, this is not really about Iraq. It is not about weapons of mass destruction, or terrorism, or Saddam, or U.N. resolutions.

This war, should it come, is intended to mark the official emergence of the United States as a full-fledged global empire, seizing sole responsibility and authority as planetary policeman. It would be the culmination of a plan 10 years or more in the making, carried out by those who believe the United States must seize the opportunity for global domination, even if it means becoming the "American imperialists" that our enemies always claimed we were.

Once that is understood, other mysteries solve themselves. For example, why does the administration seem unconcerned about an exit strategy from Iraq once Saddam is toppled?

Because we won't be leaving. Having conquered Iraq, the United States will create permanent military bases in that country from which to dominate the Middle East, including neighboring Iran.

In an interview Friday, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld brushed aside that suggestion, noting that the United States does not covet other nations' territory. That may be true, but 57 years after World War II ended, we still have major bases in Germany and Japan. We will do the same in Iraq.

And why has the administration dismissed the option of containing and deterring Iraq, as we had the Soviet Union for 45 years? Because even if it worked, containment and deterrence would not allow the expansion of American power. Besides, they are beneath us as an empire. Rome did not stoop to containment; it conquered. And so should we.

Among the architects of this would-be American Empire are a group of brilliant and powerful people who now hold key positions in the Bush administration: They envision the creation and enforcement of what they call a worldwide "Pax Americana," or American peace. But so far, the American people have not appreciated the true extent of that ambition.

Part of it's laid out in the National Security Strategy, a document in which each administration outlines its approach to defending the country. The Bush administration plan, released Sept. 20, marks a significant departure from previous approaches, a change that it attributes largely to the attacks of Sept. 11.

To address the terrorism threat, the president's report lays out a newly aggressive military and foreign policy, embracing pre-emptive attack against perceived enemies. It speaks in blunt terms of what it calls "American internationalism," of ignoring international opinion if that suits U.S. interests. "The best defense is a good offense," the document asserts.

It dismisses deterrence as a Cold War relic and instead talks of "convincing or compelling states to accept their sovereign responsibilities."

In essence, it lays out a plan for permanent U.S. military and economic domination of every region on the globe, unfettered by international treaty or concern. And to make that plan a reality, it envisions a stark expansion of our global military presence.

"The United States will require bases and stations within and beyond Western Europe and Northeast Asia," the document warns, "as well as temporary access arrangements for the long-distance deployment of U.S. troops."

The report's repeated references to terrorism are misleading, however, because the approach of the new National Security Strategy was clearly not inspired by the events of Sept. 11. They can be found in much the same language in a report issued in September 2000 by the Project for the New American Century, a group of conservative interventionists outraged by the thought that the United States might be forfeiting its chance at a global empire.

"At no time in history has the international security order been as conducive to American interests and ideals," the report said. stated two years ago. "The challenge of this coming century is to preserve and enhance this 'American peace.' "

Familiar themes

Overall, that 2000 report reads like a blueprint for current Bush defense policy. Most of what it advocates, the Bush administration has tried to accomplish. For example, the project report urged the repudiation of the anti-ballistic missile treaty and a commitment to a global missile defense system. The administration has taken that course.

It recommended that to project sufficient power worldwide to enforce Pax Americana, the United States would have to increase defense spending from 3 percent of gross domestic product to as much as 3.8 percent. For next year, the Bush administration has requested a defense budget of $379 billion, almost exactly 3.8 percent of GDP.

It advocates the "transformation" of the U.S. military to meet its expanded obligations, including the cancellation of such outmoded defense programs as the Crusader artillery system. That's exactly the message being preached by Rumsfeld and others.

It urges the development of small nuclear warheads "required in targeting the very deep, underground hardened bunkers that are being built by many of our potential adversaries." This year the GOP-led U.S. House gave the Pentagon the green light to develop such a weapon, called the Robust Nuclear Earth Penetrator, while the Senate has so far balked.

That close tracking of recommendation with current policy is hardly surprising, given the current positions of the people who contributed to the 2000 report.

Paul Wolfowitz is now deputy defense secretary. John Bolton is undersecretary of state. Stephen Cambone is head of the Pentagon's Office of Program, Analysis and Evaluation. Eliot Cohen and Devon Cross are members of the Defense Policy Board, which advises Rumsfeld. I. Lewis Libby is chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney. Dov Zakheim is comptroller for the Defense Department.

'Constabulary duties'

Because they were still just private citizens in 2000, the authors of the project report could be more frank and less diplomatic than they were in drafting the National Security Strategy. Back in 2000, they clearly identified Iran, Iraq and North Korea as primary short-term targets, well before President Bush tagged them as the Axis of Evil. In their report, they criticize the fact that in war planning against North Korea and Iraq, "past Pentagon wargames have given little or no consideration to the force requirements necessary not only to defeat an attack but to remove these regimes from power."

To preserve the Pax Americana, the report says U.S. forces will be required to perform "constabulary duties" -- the United States acting as policeman of the world -- and says that such actions "demand American political leadership rather than that of the United Nations."

To meet those responsibilities, and to ensure that no country dares to challenge the United States, the report advocates a much larger military presence spread over more of the globe, in addition to the roughly 130 nations in which U.S. troops are already deployed.

More specifically, they argue that we need permanent military bases in the Middle East, in Southeast Europe, in Latin America and in Southeast Asia, where no such bases now exist. That helps to explain another of the mysteries of our post-Sept. 11 reaction, in which the Bush administration rushed to install U.S. troops in Georgia and the Philippines, as well as our eagerness to send military advisers to assist in the civil war in Colombia.

The 2000 report directly acknowledges its debt to a still earlier document, drafted in 1992 by the Defense Department. That document had also envisioned the United States as a colossus astride the world, imposing its will and keeping world peace through military and economic power. When leaked in final draft form, however, the proposal drew so much criticism that it was hastily withdrawn and repudiated by the first President Bush.

Effect on allies

The defense secretary in 1992 was Richard Cheney; the document was drafted by Wolfowitz, who at the time was defense undersecretary for policy.

The potential implications of a Pax Americana are immense.

One is the effect on our allies. Once we assert the unilateral right to act as the world's policeman, our allies will quickly recede into the background. Eventually, we will be forced to spend American wealth and American blood protecting the peace while other nations redirect their wealth to such things as health care for their citizenry.

Donald Kagan, a professor of classical Greek history at Yale and an influential advocate of a more aggressive foreign policy -- he served as co-chairman of the 2000 New Century project -- acknowledges that likelihood.

"If [our allies] want a free ride, and they probably will, we can't stop that," he says. But he also argues that the United States, given its unique position, has no choice but to act anyway.

"You saw the movie 'High Noon'? he asks. "We're Gary Cooper."

Accepting the Cooper role would be an historic change in who we are as a nation, and in how we operate in the international arena. Candidate Bush certainly did not campaign on such a change. It is not something that he or others have dared to discuss honestly with the American people. To the contrary, in his foreign policy debate with Al Gore, Bush pointedly advocated a more humble foreign policy, a position calculated to appeal to voters leery of military intervention.

For the same reason, Kagan and others shy away from terms such as empire, understanding its connotations. But they also argue that it would be naive and dangerous to reject the role that history has thrust upon us. Kagan, for example, willingly embraces the idea that the United States would establish permanent military bases in a post-war Iraq.

"I think that's highly possible," he says. "We will probably need a major concentration of forces in the Middle East over a long period of time. That will come at a price, but think of the price of not having it. When we have economic problems, it's been caused by disruptions in our oil supply. If we have a force in Iraq, there will be no disruption in oil supplies."

Costly global commitment

Rumsfeld and Kagan believe that a successful war against Iraq will produce other benefits, such as serving an object lesson for nations such as Iran and Syria. Rumsfeld, as befits his sensitive position, puts it rather gently. If a regime change were to take place in Iraq, other nations pursuing weapons of mass destruction "would get the message that having them . . . is attracting attention that is not favorable and is not helpful," he says.

Kagan is more blunt.

"People worry a lot about how the Arab street is going to react," he notes. "Well, I see that the Arab street has gotten very, very quiet since we started blowing things up."

The cost of such a global commitment would be enormous. In 2000, we spent $281 billion on our military, which was more than the next 11 nations combined. By 2003, our expenditures will have risen to $378 billion. In other words, the increase in our defense budget from 1999-2003 will be more than the total amount spent annually by China, our next largest competitor.

The lure of empire is ancient and powerful, and over the millennia it has driven men to commit terrible crimes on its behalf. But with the end of the Cold War and the disappearance of the Soviet Union, a global empire was essentially laid at the feet of the United States. To the chagrin of some, we did not seize it at the time, in large part because the American people have never been comfortable with themselves as a New Rome.

Now, more than a decade later, the events of Sept. 11 have given those advocates of empire a new opportunity to press their case with a new president. So in debating whether to invade Iraq, we are really debating the role that the United States will play in the years and decades to come.

Are peace and security best achieved by seeking strong alliances and international consensus, led by the United States? Or is it necessary to take a more unilateral approach, accepting and enhancing the global dominance that, according to some, history has thrust upon us?

If we do decide to seize empire, we should make that decision knowingly, as a democracy. The price of maintaining an empire is always high. Kagan and others argue that the price of rejecting it would be higher still.

That's what this is about.

"Rebuilding America's Defenses," a 2000 report by the Project for the New American Century, listed 27 people as having attended meetings or contributed papers in preparation of the report. Among them are six who have since assumed key defense and foreign policy positions in the Bush administration. And the report seems to have become a blueprint for Bush's foreign and defense policy.


Paul Wolfowitz
Political science doctorate from University of Chicago and dean of the international relations program at Johns Hopkins University during the 1990s. Served in the Reagan State Department, moved to the Pentagon during the first Bush administration as undersecretary of defense for policy. Sworn in as deputy defense secretary in March 2001.

John Bolton
Yale Law grad who worked in the Reagan administration as an assistant attorney general. Switched to the State Department in the first Bush administration as assistant secretary for international organization affairs. Sworn in as undersecretary of state for arms control and international security, May 2001.

Eliot Cohen
Harvard doctorate in government who taught at Harvard and at the Naval War College. Now directs strategic studies at Johns Hopkins and is the author of several books on military strategy. Was on the Defense Department's policy planning staff in the first Bush administration and is now on Donald Rumsfeld's Defense Policy Board.

I. Lewis Libby
Law degree from Columbia (Yale undergrad). Held advisory positions in the Reagan State Department. Was a partner in a Washington law firm in the late '80s before becoming deputy undersecretary of defense for policy in the first Bush administration (under Dick Cheney). Now is the vice president's chief of staff.

Dov Zakheim
Doctorate in economics and politics from Oxford University. Worked on policy issues in the Reagan Defense Department and went into private defense consulting during the 1990s. Was foreign policy adviser to the 2000 Bush campaign. Sworn in as undersecretary of defense (comptroller) and chief financial officer for the Pentagon, May 2001.

Stephen Cambone
Political science doctorate from Claremont Graduate School. Was in charge of strategic defense policy at the Defense Department in the first Bush administration. Now heads the Office of Program, Analysis and Evaluation at the Defense Department.







Edited by - patfromlogan on June 24 2003 21:56:57

DJeter1234
24th June 03, 10:07 PM
"That may be true, but 57 years after World War II ended, we still have major bases in Germany and Japan. We will do the same in Iraq."

might have had something to do with the communists. anyway, we did do a pretty good job rebuilding both economies, and military buildup plaid a serious part, at least in Europe, don't know as much about the Japanese reconstruction

Choke
24th June 03, 10:10 PM
Another conspiracy theory?

I wish people would try to view world events in a more balanced (and more informed) perspective instead of jumping to extremes all the time.

_______________________________________
Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising
I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking:
Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!

Deadpan Scientist
24th June 03, 10:15 PM
America is better than all those other countries anyhow, the world should be begging us to take it over.

patfromlogan
24th June 03, 11:51 PM
Choke, did you actually read this? Hit Wolfowitz on dogpile search and learn what kind of person is helping run this country. I can't see how you think this is a conspiracy theory, it's fucking published, reported, written records. Wolfboy has been pushing this agenda for years and now that nobrain is in power, his big chance has come.

and brand, don't you think at all? Have you ever been out of this country? What countries are worse than the US? How are they worse? Ever hear of Aramco? Do you know when and why it was formed? Read the history of EL Salvador for example. http://salt.claretianpubs.org/romero/romero.html will turn your stomach. What does raped and murdered Catholic nuns mean to you? How many priests were shot with guns bought with our (USA USA!) taxes?http://spcuna.spc.edu/library/jesuit2.html is another site you should try to avoid. Don't even try to think.Stay in your fucking fantasy world. Obviously you don't know shit. Why don't you go back to posting pictures of fantasy girls with fake tits and lots of plastic surgery. Sorry to insult you, but why shouldn't I? You posted an idiotic response. USA USA! Go beat off to a phony silicon "babe" and leave the political threads to people who have actually read a book or two.

Excuse me for ranting. I posted the article because it documents an anti-democratic shift if US policy. I didn't think the policy was so great to begin with, but I put it up here to stimulate debate, personally I hope I'm wrong, but I don't have much hope.



Edited by - patfromlogan on June 24 2003 23:53:01

Edited by - patfromlogan on June 25 2003 08:49:10

elipson
25th June 03, 01:26 AM
Brand, I think I speak for the rest of the world when I say, fuck you!!!

Omar
25th June 03, 02:47 AM
This is old news to me. Old and depressing. Very depressing. Mostly I just try not to think about it and if I get too depressed I just remind myself that it could be much worse for me if I wasn't an American. And then the other thing is not that America's best but if not America, who? Before it was the British. Way before...Rome. I'm not sure how long this empire will last. 100 years? 500?

I often find refuge in my Chinese history studies. 500 years of domination is just average for them. With any luck, the US will fade and crumble under it's own weight in another 200 years or so. I just hope most of the crumbling happens after I'm gone. But I dunno, it's getting bad fast.

I only left the country for 3 years. I come back and we have internment camps, an illegitimate presidential election, aggressive unprovoked wars, affirmative action is being dismantled, and public radio has commercials and even came out in support of Nike's right to lie in public!?

When I am intoduced to others in China, people askl where I'm from. My GF tells them I'm from the country most deserving of an ass whooping. Nobody has taken more than about 1 1/2 seconds to laugh and say America. This includes the other western travelers in China. Most of the world hates us. Per capita income is far from the top. We have the highest infant mortality rate of anyt first world country.

The list goes on.

90% of our media--radio, T.V., movies, music and even internet content are owned by onyl 5 different companies, several of which are subsidieries of petroleum companies.

It is a sick and dying countries and all the heroes have been shot. Who's supposed to lead the people into some sort of popular rebellion against the oligarchy? Gore? lol. Maybe Ralph Nader...please! Doesn't anybody have boths brains AND charisma?

Lord help us all.

BAH ! Puny Humans !

PizDoff
25th June 03, 08:53 AM
"and military buildup plaid a serious part, at least in Europe, don't know as much about the Japanese reconstruction"
Yes.

:)

The American military DId have a part in the reconstruction of Japan.....after WW2

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.

www.despair.com

cyrijl
25th June 03, 09:00 AM
"What countries are worse than the US?"
Should i list alphabetically or but GDP? Give me a fucking break. I am no flag waving patriot, but some of you people are full of shit. You wanna know why america is the greatest country? OPPORTUNITY. Something no other country can offer more of...you go find a country and i'll be happy to bat it down for ya. Having traveled rather extensively throughout europe....a tad in SE Asia and S. America, i'll tell you. Nobody has as much opportunity as in the US. All of you fucks do nothing but contribute to the problem. How many of you drive? Speed?....use a CPU? Eat food you yourself did not kill? Volunteer? Donate blood and money to the needy?

"I often find refuge in my Chinese history studies. 500 years of domination is just average for them. With any luck, the US will fade and crumble under it's own weight in another 200 years or so. When I am intoduced to others in China, people askl where I'm from. My GF tells them I'm from the country most deserving of an ass whooping. Nobody has taken more than about 1 1/2 seconds to laugh and say America. This includes the other western travelers in China. Most of the world hates us. Per capita income is far from the top. We have the highest infant mortality rate of anyt first world country. "

That's funnry everywhere i go, people want to come back with me. Many have some level of political dissent. In many of the coutries i've visited people are not even allowed to dissent. But people have never been hostile towards me or bush. The hatred of the US is a propoganda tool.

________________________________________________
I found the cure for hope

poet
25th June 03, 10:10 AM
cyrijl, I agree with our GDP & GNP but those do not make a country a good place just a rich country.

"The hatred of the US is a propoganda tool."

You really aren't talking to people from alot of countries are you?
The things people want from America are it's wealth and what that entails.
That does not mean they like America or Americans.

There are many people in the world who love America and Americans.
But to say that the hatred of America or Americans are a propaganda tool is naive at best.

"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right."
Ashleigh Brilliant

Omar
25th June 03, 10:25 AM
Cyril,
I did mention their laughter, right. It IS a joke. Just a kind of disturbing one. Those Chinese who all universally agree America is most in need of an ass whooping are probably more desperately trying to get there than hardly anyone else. The biggest obstacle to making friends there is that the younger ones all want to go into businaess with you and the older ones all want you to teach their kids english so they can get into an American University.

That doesn't mean they like our government. They like the pop culture. They mostly like the money. It also ties in with my favorite thing about being American. If there's a massive colonial power crushing countries beneath it's feet, would you rather be the crusher or the crushee. If I have to choose, I'll take the crushER every time.

Even the Europeans I talked to tend to be fairly appaled by what we're doing. Fortunately for me on my travels, most people seem to be able to make a distinction between our government and our people. Last year I had a cab driver, in the middle of praising America's might and prdigious economic strength, asked me: "American's aren't a peace loving people are they?" He proceeded to apologize and explain that he liked most of the Americans he had met but it seemed like every time he turned around America was at war again.

BAH ! Puny Humans !

Omar
25th June 03, 10:27 AM
p.s. for an impressive list of America's terrorist activities, just check out Noam Chomsky's latest. I think it's "Manufacturing Consent" but that might be the one before.

On a more humorous anti-american note...
My MT trainer, on the subject of drugs, mainly pot and opium, he explained that it's all over the place in Thailand. Opium fields and lot's of pot. But he said, "We don't smoke it. We sell it to the C.I.A!"

BAH ! Puny Humans !

Vapour
25th June 03, 10:32 AM
To be honest, democracy in Iraq is not really an option that is if you want to hold iraq as a country. Shiit is majority over there. if democracy is introduced, arab would definitely wish to split from Shiit majority democracy. If that happen, Kurd would like to go for independence as well.

poet
25th June 03, 10:41 AM
Omar -
"...most people seem to be able to make a distinction between our government and our people."

Yes I am thankful for that.
Some Americans should try that kind of understanding.

""We don't smoke it. We sell it to the C.I.A!""

LOL

"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right."
Ashleigh Brilliant

Vargas
25th June 03, 11:45 AM
Uh, Omar, not to nit-pick but I wouldn't throw Chomsky's name around too much. Among his dubious accomplishments is a shrill denial that the Killing Fields in Cambodia ever happened. Plus, his economic theories are as fruity as a banana tree. Not exactly the guy I'd quote, if you know what I mean.


Here's what it comes down to, guys. The U.S. is the most powerful nation in the world right now. That guarantees that just about everyone outside the U.S., as well as a good number of people inside the U.S., are going to be opposed to anything the government does just on general principle. Doesn't matter what issue or conflict or crisis. If some people take it to extremes and become internet conspiracy theorists, fine, have a ball. I know I laugh reading some of the shit that gets posted around here. Empires rise, empires fall. Most of the countries that bitch about the U.S. imagine they would do a SO much better job if they were in the driver's seat. From what I've seen, there are a handful that have a legitimate arguement. The rest are on drugs.

I've been overseas quite a bit, even married a foreigner, so I see this nation through a slightly removed perspective. All I can say is this: Things aren't black and white, there's a lot of grey out there. Try to educate yourself but don't take someone's word about something just because they're a professor or hold some prestigous position. Get out there and find out for yourself. Everyone, including me, is probably full of shit, especially when it comes to world politics. Travel is cheap, so are books. The internet? Entertaining, but fairly useless when it comes to informing. Too much chaff mixed in with the wheat.

"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"

cyrijl
25th June 03, 11:59 AM
Even the Europeans I talked to tend to be fairly appaled by what we're doing. Fortunately for me on my travels, most people seem to be able to make a distinction between our government and our people.
The only people i've had issues with are western europeans from 30-50. The older ones appreciate the role america has played and the younger ones love the brand names...not all, but alot. Alot of hostility comes from people who wish they had money and the power. OF COURSE this country has a long LONG way to go in terms of poverty, racism and global responsibility. But man, i've seen some pretty bad places. Power doesn't make you evil and neither does money. I've seen some pretty rough poor people. And NOT just because they are poor.

Chomsky?...............1957 and then it was all down hill.....linguists talking philosophy is like philosophers talking linguistics.

Libs say they hate bush and clinton wasn't much better. Looking at either's records is appauling. But why? Because the average person is too busy and overtaxed to think. I lived in A'dam a bit an most of the people my age 21-30 could care less about the U.S. and gov't unless they saw it as a threat to the power of their country.

I don't know about thailand, but i've been to cambodia....it doesn't go to the CIA. Those reports about the CIA (as the organizaion) running drugs are suspicious at best. On an individual level it is prob true. Like Thailand is in any place to talk about justice (cambodia....ever wonder where all of those angkar heads went?)

________________________________________________
I found the cure for hope

cyrijl
25th June 03, 12:00 PM
BTW, i am neither rep or dem. I want the dems out of my pocket and the rep out of my bedroom. I am a Marxist in the Marxist sense.

________________________________________________
I found the cure for hope

poet
25th June 03, 01:14 PM
Vargas -
"Try to educate yourself but don't take someone's word about something just because they're a professor or hold some prestigous position. Get out there and find out for yourself"

You ain't just whisling dixie!

"My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right."
Ashleigh Brilliant

Samuel Browning
25th June 03, 01:18 PM
Its funny, America has been a modern empire in one form or another since we seized the Phillipenes(sp) and Panama slightly before 1900 and held the former until the 1940s and the canal zone until a couple years ago.

The argument I will be making here is the following. All nations with great power, use and abuse it, so realistically the most America can hope to do it tap it down and act in a more reserved and ethical fashion though by the worlds standards we will still be throwing our weight around.

Wolfy and his buddys are not particularly plugged into middle eastern history. They are forgetting that back in the mid 1950s we had something called the "Bagdad' pact which was a diplomatic agreement between I believe Iraq, Iran, and either Turkey or Packastan(sp) to resist Soviet aggression. When the government of Iraq was overthrown in one of their periodic coups this alliance went by the wayside. the local politicians were more concerned about the Israeli/Arab conflict which also took the people's mind off problems like government corruption at home.

It is my opinion that the modern empires that last the longest keep a low profile, When Wolfy and his buddies talk about military bases especially in places like Iraq I cringe. It really highlights the USA as a perminant "occupier", which will make the local population more restive. I am glad that we are removing our forces generally from Saudi Arabia, they were a rallying point for the local super fundimentalists.

Empires and interventions are expensive, our ill-fated intervention in Vietnam took money away from LBJ's great society program, and was one of the factors that kept these efforts from being successful (poor program management was another cause)Paul Kennedy in his book "The Rise and Fall of Great Powers" makes the point that to survive an empire needs to be economically dominant, in a relative sense to its rivals. This was not a problem visa vie the old Soviet Union and more of a problem with our impending rivalry with China. The bottom line is that even empires cannot forever fund invasions and occupations, at a certain point it screws up the home economy.

The a problem with Wolfy's plan is that it is not linked to the economic costs of carrying out such actions. Right now our armed forces are apparently tapped out providing front line troops to Bosna, Afganistan, and Iraq. We simply can't pull together the manpower to go invade and occupy other places. and Bush is being a moron by rolling back tax rates which will damage his ability to pay for such further fool headed ventures.

We are also politically tone deaf. We had comparatively less protest going into Afganistan because there were actually al-quada terrorists but Iraq is proving to be a location where such proof is lacking. The concept of being a worlds policemen is more ambitious then simply going after al-quada and I believe that the more ambitious goal gets in our way of carrying out the limited actions we need to pursue the perpetrators of 911. For example, since we are pinned down in Iraq where Iran can use the local population to make trouble, we are not exactly free to launch raids into Iran after the al-quada personel hiding there. I think that such actions would be more defensable then our present Iraq action.

I don't think we ever totally left Pax Americana behind even in the Clinton years, the present ramp up seems almost designed to make negative waves and get us bogged down which I think is not in America's interest.



Edited by - on June 25 2003 13:21:36

DJeter1234
25th June 03, 05:51 PM
"The American military DId have a part in the reconstruction of Japan.....after WW2"

yeah, i know McArthur practically installed himself as emperor and didn't let eh ruskies in, but i don't know much about any economic reconstruction, seeing as the economy was fairly good beforehand, and I am not sure to what extent the war ruined the economy.

Omar
25th June 03, 06:33 PM
I'm sneaking a few internet minutes at work so I can't even read all of Samuels post right now.

Vargas,
I was and am pretty specific how I reccomend Chomsky. I'm not even a huge fan myself as I haven't read his books. I've just heard him speak on the radio and watched a fair bit on video. As far as I know, your criticisms about his ideological stance may be right on target.

I stand by my original comment, "for an impressive list of America's terrorist activities, just check out Noam Chomsky's latest."

He is very good at listing numerous specific terrorists acts of the United States government. I also listed a number of, to me, horrifying developements in the 3 years I've been out. Can you refute any of them? And back on the Chomsky issue, I haven't heard about his denial of the killing fields in Cambodia. It seems out of character, but I can't say it isn't true. His current point on the lecture circuit is that if the US was serious about stopping terrorist acts, the best way would be to stop commiting them. I find that logic hard to refute.

Vapour,
Shiite majority. Just was I've been thinking. If Iraq went democratic then they could very likely elect a religious Shiite leader who's first item on his agenda would be to get the US the hell out of Iraq. Then we will follow our usually procedure of shaking our heads sadly and explaining to the rest of the world that apparently they weren't ready for democracy and it may take a while to transition to our style of government. We then making them keep holding elections untill they get someone pro-American.

BAH ! Puny Humans !

Choke
25th June 03, 09:00 PM
The U.S. has also been the world's largest benefactor as well as the leader in "terrorist" activities.

If there is a major mudslide in Guatamala who is going to provide relief for the homeless there? France? Russia? Angola?

Pretty much all major and middle powers of the world have their share of illegal activities. The U.S. is not alone in that. We aren't the only nation in the world that does indecent things to ensure our wealth and security.

We at least put a token effort to asuage the world's problems; few countries part with their rescources like the U.S. does.

If the U.S. is trying to sow it's seed throughout the world how can it be considered a waning superpower? Who exactly is going to replace the U.S? A united Europe? Russia? China? A South American confederation? All the other big players have problems way beyond ours: from within and without. I think there is still a good deal of vitality left in the U.S.

_______________________________________
Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising
I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking:
Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!

Vargas
25th June 03, 11:13 PM
So the U.S. spreads terror and despair throughout the world now. Not religious extremists, or tribal megalomaniacs or one party/one ruler tinpot dictatorships. The U.S. is now the one killing thousands of people in completely random attacks over the globe. Just one question. Wouldn't there be a teeny, tiny bit more destruction evident if that was the case? Seems to me the most destructive thing coming out of the U.S. these days is Britany Spears albums.

Let me inform some of you doubters out there. If the U.S. military wanted to 'terrorize' any nation or group of people on this planet, believe me, you'd fucking know it. It wouldn't be some internet rumor on an website. There would be massive death and destruction on a scale not seen since the Mongols kicked the shit out of everyone in the 13th century. The entire goddamn planet would be running for cover instead of screeching about 'U.S. Imperialism' and 'Amerian arrogance'. Just by refusing to do anymore humanitarian missions, that would probably kill a few thousand a year right there.

However, that is far from the case. Critics, foreign and domestic, routinely blast U.S. leaders and policies with language that would get you arrested or shot in some countries. Shit, people like Michael Moore, Noam Chomsky and Edward Said are making big money writing and talking about how evil and corruption is inherent in modern America. So how come those assholes are making a bundle instead of rotting inside some federal prison? Does anyone really believe that it's just a fluke that all these anti-American commentators are free as a fucking bird (not to mention semi-wealthy) while dissenters in other countries are getting tortured and killed for saying the same goddamn thing about their governments? Does anyone really think any of these high-profile critics would last a fucking week in the old Soviet Union, not to mention modern China, Iran, Syria, North Korea, Cuba, Sudan, Somalia, The Congo, etc. . . ? I double-dog-dare Noam Chomsky, or any other over-educated whiner, to fly to Syria and ask what the fuck happened in Hama back in 1982 (Do a Google search if you want the details). Now, THAT was state-sponsored terror, none of this pussy 'missing Iraqi artifacts stolen by looters' bullshit that supposedly proves how callous and brutal the United States really is. Oh, by the way, they found almost all the missing stuff. You know where it was? In the fucking basement, where the staff stashed it, that's where!! In the end, I think 37 pieces were unaccounted for. Whoop-te-fucking-doo. Notice how the media hasn't printed an apology to the U.S. field commanders after accusing them of allowing the theft of Iraqi cultural history.

So if some of you guys get your rocks off taking potshots at the Evil Empire, go ahead, have a ball. Just don't pretend you're some kind of objective observer who's just passing on the facts. Everyone (yes, including me) has all kinds of pre-conceived notions and other miscellaneous bullshit stuck in their heads. Pretending otherwise, though, doesn't fool anyone.

"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"

elipson
25th June 03, 11:18 PM
The U.S. has also been the world's largest benefactor as well as the leader in "terrorist" activities. Ya they also brag about it the most.


If there is a major mudslide in Guatamala who is going to provide relief for the homeless there?

And when there are ethnic cleansing in East Timor, Congo, and the Ivory coast, the states is ALWAYS the first to send in help! Wait a minute.... no they're not!

And who would replace the States? No one, it would be a power vacuum until someone got the upper hand. Actually now that I think about it, the EU is in a pretty good position to assume that role.

Vargas
25th June 03, 11:43 PM
I know exactly why the U.S. avoids getting involved in Africa (although I did fly flood relief missions out of South Africa into Mozambique back in 2000. Oh wait, that must have been 'terrorism' too. Nevermind). It starts with an 'S', ends with an 'A', Jerry Bruckheimer made a pretty cool movie about it. Anyone care to take a wild guess why it will be a long time before the U.S. military does any fighting in Africa? Anyone?

"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"

Samuel Browning
25th June 03, 11:59 PM
Interestingly tonight on Nightline Ted Koppel interviewed Rand Beers who until three months ago was on the Bush National Security Council and left eventually ending up as John Kerry's advisor on national security. The point that Beers made in rather guarded terms was that we were not putting to resources into Afganistan that we needed to and funding certain homeland security initiatives adequately. With Kopel's prodding he stated that it was a mistake to shift our focus from Al-quada to Iraq, and I have to add that al quada seems to be spending much of its time in the border areas of Pakistan these days. I worry about our ability under GWII to follow through with our present comitments.

Choke
26th June 03, 12:34 AM
"Ya they also brag about it the most."

Probably because we get no recognition or gratitude from the world community only griping and complaining.

"And when there are ethnic cleansing in East Timor, Congo, and the Ivory coast, the states is ALWAYS the first to send in help! Wait a minute.... no they're not!"

The United States cannot fight every warlord across the African continent. And if we did you would probably complain that we were waging a war for diamonds and gold and trying to feed more poor countries to the Demonic American War Machine.

The U.S. wages war to ensure American wealth and security as a priority like every other nation under the sky. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

What makes you think the EU would have any clout in a power vacuum? The EU couldn't decide if they enjoyed fresh air or if they would like leather wallets.

_______________________________________
Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising
I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking:
Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!

Deadpan Scientist
26th June 03, 12:43 AM
Well pat, since you seem to have taken my joke a little personally, perhaps you need to get a grip on reality.



and brand, don't you think at all?

I think you don't know what you have. I don't think you know what others don't. There are not many (if any) countries that have a higher quality of life.



What countries are worse than the US?

Pick one and I'll tell you why.



How are they worse?

Disease, famine, lawlessness, an unstable government, a terrible economy



http://salt.claretianpubs.org/romero/romero.html will turn your stomach.

It didn't turn my stomach. I watch brain surgery and mouse dissections for fun. If this guy had lived in america, he would not have been killed for speaking his views. America may have financed some government in another part of the world that did some bad shit, but it's not the US's fault they did the bad shit. If said country were actually a part of the USA, said shit would never be allowed to happen.



What does raped and murdered Catholic nuns mean to you? How many priests were shot with guns bought with our (USA USA!) taxes?

How many people are raped every year in the USA? Why were the preists shot? Is it something the government executes people for in america? I think not...



http://spcuna.spc.edu/library/jesuit2.html is another site you should try to avoid.


Uhh... are you sure we're on the same page here. I said the USA is better. WTF is all this crap about El salvador. It's not the USA. The US government(the modern govt, civil war doesn't count) has never killed 70,000 US civilians using secret death police.



Don't even try to think.

I know you aren't. I don't really have to think very hard to be smarter than you.



Stay in your fucking fantasy world.

You are the one living the the fantasy world of behind the scenes conspiracies and black helicopters. I'm sure you'll argue that I'm only acting this way because I'm jewish, and the jews are behind everything, hollywood, banking, wall street, etc.



Obviously you don't know shit.

Prove me wrong old man. Don't strain your arthritic fingers typing out your apology.



Why don't you go back to posting pictures of fantasy girls with fake tits and lots of plastic surgery.

Unlike your radical delusions, those girls actually exist.



Sorry to insult you, but why shouldn't I?

Bullshit. You weren't sorry at the time you wrote this, but you will be after this thread is over.



You posted an idiotic response.

....You are an idiot.



Go beat off to a phony silicon "babe" and leave the political threads to people who have actually read a book or two.

Please... by the end of this year I'm going to have one masters degree, and two bachelor of science degrees. Don't try to play intellectual penis measuring with me, because you'll lose.



I posted the article because it documents an anti-democratic shift if US policy.

If the USA takes over a country and makes it a state, then that would be a pro-democratic action, because it would ensure that the political system of the area would not be dominated by a military dictator, but rather elected(in the us system) representatives.


BTW:
http://people.brandeis.edu/~timcraig/elsalvad0r.jpg

Omar
26th June 03, 01:23 AM
Vargas,
Those those "assholes" are not rotting inside some federal prison because they are not a threat because most of the country prefers to remain as ignorant as you are. You just give me a number. How many specific terrorist acts does it take? People DO know. It's not an internet rumor.

We don't throw people in political prisons here unless they are poor and either islamic or Haitian. It's in the news if you get past page 3. We have interned 1000's of residents for the crime of being Haitian. After 911 we rounded up countless thousands of residents from Islamic countries and held them without charging them of any crimes and with no legal representation and noexplanation of why they were held. Furthermore the government has refused to release any list of who was detained. These people have been imprisoned without any legal ground whatsoever for 6 months to a year.

"There would be massive death and destruction on a scale not seen since the Mongols kicked the shit out of everyone in the 13th century."

There has been. Just take a look at South and central America. Or Afghanistan for that matter. Give me untill this weekend and I'll be happy to supply you with the specific exxamples if you actually care. From the level of denial expressed in your posts I don't think it's worth the effort. I'd rather refer people who are actually curious what we are doing on the world stage to the appropriate sources so they can do the research themselves. I don't have the time or energy to become an activist.

The only thing I can find to agree with you on is that we are not essentially worse than any other imperialistic empires. I don't think China would be any better, although, to their credit, they haven't ever really been imperialistic. Historically they have never attempted to conquer anything past the borders established in the Qin dynasty back in 220 bc. One notable exception being the Mongols who were pretty expansionist, but they came in from the outside when they established the Yuan dynasty.

So actually, I'd have to say, yes, they are better from that perspective. Their primary crimes have been against their own people. Not much history of aggressive expansion. They are ntoed for their isolationism. I can't speak for the other countries you suggested because they are outside of my main fields of study.

The museum looting in Iraq is a straw dog. It's irrelevant to Americas crimes in Iraq. We started an unprovoked war of aggression and then stepped in and told them who the new leaders would be. We bombed their coutnry into rubble and then brought in our own contractors to rebuild what we had destroyed. In our benificience we are lending them money to pay us to rebuild the infrastruicture that WE destroyed. Most reports are that they are very thankfull that we chsed Saddam out and now could we please get the hell out and let them run their own damn country.

We don't hear about a lot of this stuff because we have major censorship in our media. It;s not from the government it's from the media it's self because THEY ARE OWNED BY THE SAME PEOPLE WHO WANT THE WAR!

I don't pretend to be an objective observer jsut passing on the facts. I CARE. I am a participator. I am aware that my wealth comes at the expense of someone else. That's the whole point of business, getting other people to do the work so you can collect the cash. Pretending otherwise, though, apparently, fools a lot of people.


BAH ! Puny Humans !

Deadpan Scientist
26th June 03, 01:25 AM
Vargas, is the answer Somalia ???

Omar
26th June 03, 01:31 AM
http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2003/05/48254.php

http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/features/anti-war/

and way more fun: http://www.adbusters.org/abtv/movies/spotlight/logorrhea/real_high.html

http://adbusters.org/creativeresistance/spoofads/

BAH ! Puny Humans !

Omar
26th June 03, 01:33 AM
Choke,

This ones for you:http://adbusters.org/creativeresistance/spoofads/fashion/tommy/

BAH ! Puny Humans !

Deadpan Scientist
26th June 03, 02:35 AM
heh

Choke
26th June 03, 03:24 AM
Omar,

Why don't you just address my post instead? What is so mindless about what I said? It was pretty middle of the road; not really falling into any camp.

What I said in a nutshell was that America has done some immoral and indecent things to ensure it's wealth and security but overall it's still a good country.

I'm not ordering "Freedom" fries nor am I buying into every 9/11 conspiracy theory. So what's up?

_______________________________________
Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising
I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing.
To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking:
Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!

Vargas
26th June 03, 07:21 AM
Omar, dude, stop and think what you're typing. I brought up the Mongols for a specific reason. They too conquered Iraq (then Persia) and Baghdad back in their day. Why don't you do an internet search or hell, just read a history book and check out how the gentle hordes from Central Asia treated their new subjects. Apparently, the pyramids of heads were quite impressive. Also, for a guy with a focus on Chinese culture/history, you seem to have a weird grasp on the idea of 'death and destruction'. 'Bombing their country into rubble'? Okay, compare pictures of Baghdad today with pictures of post-WW II Tokyo, Berlin, Stalingrad, Dresden, etc... THAT is being bombed into rubble. Iraq? Christ, there is still disagreement over whether 1, 4 or 5 thousand civilians died in the campaign. Believe me, as an Air Force officer, I can assure you that we bent over backward not to bomb anything we didn't have to in that country. Yes, accidents happen, ordinance does fall off target. A Marine just got killed in Djibouti in a training accident involving close air support. That is a lot fucking different than airstriking a place until nothing but rubble is left and watching the survivors staggered around in a daze. Use some perspective and post something less hyperbolic.

China? Sure, they don't want global domination, I'll buy that. How that lets Mao and the rest of his ilk off the hook for the deaths of millions of innocent Chinese in the 50s and 60s still escapes me, but I've never been good at understanding true mass murderers. But hey, it must be okay, it was only his own people, who gives a fuck how many Chinese died in the pogroms. If the U.S. government killed even a tiny fraction of the citizens that Mao did in post-WW II China, this country would have a revolt faster than you could say 'Paul Revere'. So please, lumping the current U.S. track record with the Mongols or even past Chinese leaders is retarded, at best. Try not to be such a blatant ideologue, blindly repeating whatever party line they print over at Indymedia. Let me guess, you probably believe everything that Moore wrote in "Stupid White Men" too. How original.

Oh yeah, gold sticker for Brand, he figured the Africa question out.

"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"

patfromlogan
26th June 03, 08:43 AM
I don't have time to reply much, but if you were joking brandeissansoo where was the smiley face? huh? answer me that you young wippernsapper!! :) See? that means joke, you stupid fucker! :)

See dumb shit how funny it is? :)

Anyway, I'm laughing... I think I'm really funny... ;)

So to respond.
1. If someone lashes out with the assumption that criticizing the Gov't is not patriotic. Fuck them and fuck their ignorance. This is the divisive Spiro Agnew the asshole crook technique. It worked then amongst the nonthinking back in the Vietnam war era and seems to be working well now.

2. The El Salvador references were given in haste, true, but they were given because the UNITED STATES created the gov'ts of El Salvador, Nicaragua, and Guatemala. (and don't get me started on the Congo for Christ's sake the US created that mess with assassinations and destruction of their gov't also) Yes that is CREATED. With murder most foul. The facts turn my stomach and fill me with disgust and rage. I'm sad that murder is done in my name, with my money, by my so-called leaders. My tax money goes to kill peasants! Yippee! Hooray! Shoot them nuns, priests and peasants!! (and yes I often buy fair traded coffee, rather than death squad coffee) If your taxes being used to murder doesn't bother you, I'm sorry for your lack of feelings and morals.

3. The best organization in the world, IMHO, for disaster relief is Doctors Without Borders, an organization started by the FRENCH (home of freedom fries). When the hurricanes hit Central America, Norte Americanos did send massive aid, it's too bad that most of it was used clothing that wasn't wanted or needed. DWB's went in with water filtration equipment and so forth.

The amount of foreign aid that we have spent is dwarfed by the amount of profits US companies have made by exploiting low wage workers in the 3rd world. The real tragedy is that all that profit went to corporate bigwigs that dodge tax laws and live high off the hog. The money spent on aid to foreign nations was actually paid by normal decent taxpayers like you and me. We need to have some real tax reform (like make the rich pay more) and then we can really help poor folks in 3rd world countries have a decent life. (and maybe then they won't think Osama bin Laden is such a cool guy). And don't tell me about taxes. Read the chapter on tax law in The Failure of American Democracy (I read it three times-I'm a little slow). Also I am a lefty REALESTATE INVESTOR (hating capitalism is one thing, it's the only game in town, so I play it and give money to environmental/social action/dirty hippie commies and so forth-and working landscape construction is a drag) and as a property owner I know all about how unfair the system is. It favors those who have unearned income, that is us property owners (and I look just like the monopoly guy except my clothes are tie dyed).

Choke, the US actually gives LESS in aid per capita than many other countries. Our foreign aid as generous old Uncle Sam is bullshit. Here is a bit pasted on US aid.
“Since 1949 the U.S. has given Israel a total of $83.205 billion. The interest costs borne by U.S. taxpayers on behalf of Israel are $49.937 billion, thus making the total amount of aid given to Israel since 1949 $133.132 billion. This may mean that U.S. government has given more federal aid to the average Israeli citizen in a given year than it has given to the average American citizen.” Look at who gets the $ and why. Try to get real. Try not to swallow the bullshit US is giving a helping hand to the poor countries and all they do is to bite the hand that feeds crapola. And remember, Jesus is coming, and he wants you to swallow. (Where did that come from?)

Well got to go and bill my gardening customers, how much longer I have to actually work with my hands? Not long if the real estate pays off, which to tell the actual truth will be maybe when I'm 65!
Back on the shovel, boy!

And if I had the time think how long this dern post would be……..






Edited by - patfromlogan on June 26 2003 15:06:02

Omar
26th June 03, 10:17 AM
Choke, I don't take issue with most of what you said. I have already agreed that if it wasnt us it would be someone else. That doesn't make it o.k. though. I definately don't think we're a WANING superpower. Still on the rise. The real empire phase is just now speeding up. I jsut wan't to tease you out of complacency.

Vargas,
Alright, I forgot you are in the military. This is not a personal attack. I can show you photos of mass graves of American creation too. I even came across a photo of an American soldier holding up a severed head for display in South America. If I can get my hands on a scanner, I'll see if I can come up with the origianl article.

You've brouth up another piece of American proaganda with Mao. A lot of people died. Many suffered and there is a lot of mixed sentiment about Mao. No pogroms though. You asked be to try reading a history book. I majored in Chinese and then went there to continue my studies. Chinese history is one subject I am definately not just speaking off the cuff about. No Lenin style mass executions. Where did YOU learn that from. Most of the deaths were the result of some horribly styupid policies. There was famine and many people were jailed or relocated. If you can tell me where to find out about such alleged mass executions then please do. I am a serious student of Chinese history ancient and modern.

Point taken about the bombing. We are more precise these days. My main point stands though. We destroyed their infrastructure. Oil fields are burning and we are going to charge them for the war. The damage is being repaired by American private corporations which were contracted in secret, before the attack even started.

Maybe you can tell me why we're there? Do you really think it was becasue it was "the right thing to do?" We have a long and glorious history of installing dictators just as vicious as Saddam. Take Ben Laden for example. How many average joes realize that 911 was in retaliation for our missle strikes in Afghanistan. We are in Iraq because of it's strategic importance for contraolling the whole of the middle east.

Pat,
Thank you for your post. A lot of things I wanted to mention but don't have the source materials here at my mom's place to back it up. I need a rest from this topic anyways. I'm gonna go read about more happy stuff, like beating peoples face in with MT elbows ..<img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>

BAH ! Puny Humans !

Edited by - omar on June 26 2003 10:18:14

Bolverk
26th June 03, 11:41 AM
Evidence of Iraqi WMD Found
CNSNews.com
Thursday, June 26, 2003
Using information provided by a former Iraqi weapons scientist, U.S. agents have found technology and documents that indicate Saddam Hussein was successful in hiding incriminating evidence from foreign inspectors.
Mahdi Obeidi told officials with the CIA that he was instructed to bury parts of equipment needed to enrich uranium under a rose bush in his back yard 12 years ago.

Then, once inspectors left Iraq, these items - as well as materials hidden by three other scientists - would be recovered and used to help rebuild that country's weapons program.

While U.S. officials were quick to point out that the new evidence was not the "smoking gun" proving Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction readily at his disposal, they indicated that none of the equipment or documents Obeidi buried was found by inspectors who went to Iraq over the past several years.

Obeidi and his family have left Iraq, and the CIA hopes others with valuable information will now see it is safe to tell coalition forces about hidden Iraqi weapons and documents.

Obeidi told CNN the hidden equipment was part of a highly sophisticated system he was ordered to hide to be ready to rebuild the bomb program.

Former U.N. arms inspector David Kay, now in charge of the CIA search told CNN: "It begins to tell us how huge our job is. Remember, his material was buried in a barrel behind his house in a rose garden.

"There's no way that that would have been discovered by normal international inspections. I couldn't have done it. My successors couldn't have done it."

Copyright CNSNews.com


Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
Willing is not enough, we must do.

Freddy
26th June 03, 12:57 PM
I think pretty much of the world knows that Iraq was trying to develope Nuclear weopns but actually having it is another thing.

"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"

Freddy
26th June 03, 12:58 PM
I think pretty much most of the world knows that Iraq was trying to develope Nuclear weopns but actually having it is another thing.

"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"

Freddy
26th June 03, 12:58 PM
I think pretty much most of the world knows that Iraq was trying to develope Nuclear weopons but actually having it is another thing.

"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"

Freddy
26th June 03, 01:06 PM
Oops sorry about the repeat post. (I think my server is messing up again.)

As for "hating Americans". I think people cofused hating (the foreign policies of the) American wealthy elite rather than your average American. I really dont think people hate Americans in general just the rich assholes who run the country.

"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"

Freddy
26th June 03, 01:15 PM
Vargas-"Anyone care to take a wild guess why it will be a long time before the U.S. military does any fighting in Africa? Anyone?"
Because most of America's black population see it as it is. Just a bunch of Imperialist raping Third World Africa for their own personal gains.

"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"

Freddy
26th June 03, 01:35 PM
From www.geocities.com/~virtualtruth/names_a.htm


Reports by Name A-D


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Abrams, Elliott. Assistant Secreary of State for inter-American Affairs, was previously in charge of the Reagan Administration's "human rights" program. A few months prior to this, he had helped win $20 million in "emergency" aid to Honduras by greatly exaggerating claims of Nicaraguan incursions into Honduran territory. Chris Holt's Contra Cards

Acevedo, Hugo. Chile. 1970, Combat Arms Orientation, School of the Americas. Identified in testimony by Luz Arce, as key official in the repressive forces of the DINA.


Alejandro. American (?) associated with torture by security forces in Guatemala.


Alpirez, Col. Julio Roberto. Guatemalan officer.
In March 1995, Rep. Robert Torricelli (D. NJ), a member of the House Select Committee on Intelligence, disclosed that the CIA had known for years that one of its paid assets, Col. Julio Roberto Alpirez, may have been involved in Bamaca's [Efram Bamaca, Guatemelan guerrila leader and husband of Jennifer Harbury] killing as well as the 1990 assassination of Michael DeVine. (The U. S. government had suspended military aid to Guatemala because of its failure to fully investigate and prosecute the case against the killers of DeVine, a U. S. citizen who owned an inn in the Guatemalan countryside. Linda Haugaard, "Admissions and omissions--the CIA in Guatemala,"July22, 1996, In These Times Magazine.

This cuddly fellow belongs to the G-2, the Guatemalan Army terror unit that interrogates, tortures, and eliminates dissidents in the Army's campaign against populist insurgency -- a war in which the military (according to Amnesty International) has killed some 110,000 civilians since 1978. Alpírez is rumored to have ordered the murders of one Efraín Bámaca Velásquez, a guerrilla leader married to an American, and Michael DeVine, an American hotelier. As U.S. Representative Robert Torricelli disclosed in March, Alpírez is a paid "asset" of the CIA...Alpírez himself (though he denies responsibility for the killings) has told reporter Nairn that CIA agents regularly train G-2 soldiers, as well as providing "technical assistance." Other sources have corroborated such allegations, including three Guatemalan former heads of state and Colonel George Hooker, former U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency chief in Guatemala. According to Hooker, "it's a perfectly normal thing" for Guatemalan officers to receive CIA paychecks. Garner Gollatz, "Bad Company"m The Brown Daily Herald, Inc., Wednesday, April 19, 1995



Al-Kassar, Manzer. Readers Digest noted in 1986 that he supplied arms and explosives for terrorist operations in France, spain and Holland; also linked him to heroin deals. 1984, DEA classified him as major drug trafficker. In 1986, when Iran-contra became public, ledgers of Oliver North's enterprise revealed it had paid $1.5 million to same Al-Kassar for arms shipments. Jerry Meldon, Contra-Crack Guide: Reading between the lines," in The Consortium (paid internet service)


Anderson Kohatsu, Major Ricardo, "one of Peru's most notorious alleged torturers". Retired, Peru Army Intelligence Service. On March 10, 2000, US Undersecretary of State Thomas R. Pickering ordered his release from FBI detention on the basis that he had a "G-2 visa" issued to foreigners with business before "international organizations." U. S. law enforcement officials had already arranged for victim Leonor La Rosa to testify. La Rosa had served with Anderson in army intelligence. In 1997 she was suspected of leaking a government plan to silence opposition journalists. "La Rosa told television journalists she was taken to army detention cells and tortured with electric shocks, raped, and beaten. Spinal cord injuries left her in a wheelchair." Her colleageue Mariela Lucy Barreto's headless and handless corpse was found in a ditch. La Rosa identified four intelligence agents, including Anderson, directly responsible for her torture. Karen De Young and Lorraine Adams, "U. S. Frees Accused Torturer",. Washington Post, March 11, 2000, p. A1.


Avila "Don Goyo", Especialista Gregorio. Guatemala. Identified by witness known to Jennifer Harbury, June 25, 1998, as member of Jaguar Avengers death squad.

Banzer Suarez, General Hugo (Bolivia). School of the Americas Notorious Graduate, 1956 Became Military dictator 1971-78 in violent coup; silenced outspoken members of the Church, sheltered Nazi war criminal Klaus Barbie, the "Butcher of Lyons". School of the Americas Hall of Fame, 1988, Guest Speaker, 1989.

Barriga, LTC German (Chile). School of the Americas Notorious Graduate In charge of repression of the socialist party by the Chilean DINA in the 1970's. Instructor, SOA, 1986.

Bedoya Pizarro, GEN Harold (Colombia), School of the Americas Notorious Graduate, 1965. Implicated in paramilitary death squad activity, 1965 to present; believed to be founder and chief of the paramilitary death squad known as "AAA" (American Anti-Communist Alliance) When fired by President Semper, July 1997, Defense Minister Gilberto Echeverri suggested the reason was Bedoya's unwillingness to commit to improving the military's poor human rights record. Guest Instructor, SOA, 1978-79.

Belmar, COL Pablo. Chile. 1968, received Basic Arms Orientation Course at the U. S. Army School of the Americas. Directly implicated in the 1976 torture and murder of United Nations official Carmelo Soria, whose neck was broken after he was arrested and tortured by Chilean DINA personnel. Soria's car and body were dumped in a Santiago canal in order to make his death appear accidental. Subsequently, in 1987, invited to be a Guest Instructor at the School of the Americas.

Berganza "Don Cesar", Mayor. Guatemala. Identified by witness known to Jennifer Harbury, June 25, 1998, as member of Jaguar Avengers death squad.

Blair, Admiral Dennis, US Commander in Chief of the Pacific. Failed mission to Indonesia to meet with General Wiranto, April 8, 1999, with a mission to tell Wiranto "that the time had come to shut the militias down (in East Timor) illustrates tendency of US military to operate independently of US foreign policy. Two days previously, militias had committed a horrific machete massacre at the Catholic hurch in Liquica, Timor, where some of the victims' flesh was reportedly stuck to the walls of the church and a pastor's house. "But Admiral Blair, fully briefed on Liquica, quickly made clear at the meeting with Wiranto that hw was there to reassure the TNI chief. When State Department discovered Admiral Blair's failure, an 'eyes only' cable was dispatched to Ambassador Stapleton Roy in Jakarta indicating that Blair's actions were unacceptable. A corrective phone call was arranged between Blair and Wiranto in which once again Blair failed to tell Wiranto to shut the militias down. Alan Nairn, "US Complicity in Timor," The Nation, September 27, 1999.

Blandon Reyes, Oscar Danilo, a former Nicaraguan official with apparent ties to the U. S. Central Intelligence Agency, directed a massive and unstoppable flow of cocaine into South-Central LA beginning in 1982 in order to help finance the cash-poor, CIA-devised Contra war gainst the Sandinistas. Jill Stewart, "Just Another Big Embarassment Under Shelby", Phoenix New Times.

Brown, Arthur. In 1993, CIA chief of station, Rangoon, Burma. (Yangon, Myanmar). Working with Military Intelligence of the Burmese narco-dictatorship, destroyed efforts of the DEA to help eradicate opium among the Wa people. Dennis Bernstein and Leslie Kean, People of the Opiate: Burma's dictatorship of drugs. From The Nation, December 2, 1996.

Burgos, Alejandro. Chile. 1975, Basic Officer Orientation School of the Americas. According to testimony by Luz Arce, Burgos was involved in a plan to get left-wing political prisoners who had been tortured into collaborating with the DINA to meet with the U.S. Ambassador to show that they had changed their political convictions.

Bush, George, Vice President. By the end of 1981, through a series of Executive Orders and National Security Decision Directives, many of which have been declassified, Vice President Bush was placed in charge of all Reagan administration intelligence operations. All of the covert operations carried out by officers of the CIA, the Pentagon, and every other federal agency, along with a rogue army of former intelligence operatives and foreign agents, were commanded by George Bush. Written Statement for the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, April 27, 1998 of Celerino Castillo III (DEA, Retired), author of Powderburns: Cocaine, Contras and the Drug War


Bustamonte Figueroa, "Don Sergio", Col. Edgar Ricardo. Guatemala. Identified by witness known to Jennifer Harbury, June 25, 1998, as member of Jaguar Avengers death squad. Bustamonte Figuerora is listed as a School of the Americas graduate, September 1973.

Butler, Smedley. In his remarkable confession just prior to his death in 1940, the infamous U.S. Marine Corps General Smedley D. Butler set out his record of service to the corporations, a record that is being surpassed by the military-corporate complex of today. See article on Transnational Corporations
"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service," Smedley declared, "and during that period I spent most of my time as a high-class muscle man for big business, Wall Street, and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.
"I helped make Mexico safe for American oil interests in 1914.
I helped to make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank to collect revenues in.
I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street.
I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912.
I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916.
I helped to make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903.
In China in 1927, I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested."


Callejas y Callejas, GEN Manuel Antonio (Guatemala). Chile. 1974, Basic Officer Orientation Course School of the Americas. July 14, 1994: In an event related to the disappearance of four soldiers in 1974, Canales personally barred the exhumation of a body believed to have been illegally buried on Army premises. Canales had earlier given his approval to the exhumation.

Capister, Randy. CIA agent, covert operation in Central America 1985. Involved in several atrocities. Written Statement for the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, April 27, 1998 of Celerino Castillo III (DEA, Retired), author of Powderburns: Cocaine, Contras and the Drug War


Carrera "Don Gaspar"., Teniente Coronel Oliva. Guatemala. Identified by witness known to Jennifer Harbury, June 25, 1998, as member of Jaguar Avengers death squad.

Cathey, Jim. U. S. Air Force NCO in charge of resupply for SOG commandos on Operation Tailwind. "I believe that there were American defectors in that group of people in that village, because there was ... no sign of any kind of restraint. Source: CNN study: U. S. used nerve gas during Vietnam War. Mission targeted American defectors in Laos

Casia "Maceta", Especialista Cesar. Guatemala. Identified by witness known to Jennifer Harbury, June 25, 1998, as member of Jaguar Avengers death squad.

Chandler, Captain Melbourne C., heavy-weapons company commander, 7th Cavalry Regiment, 1st Cavalry Division, now (1999) deceased. On July 26, 1950 ordered machine gunners to open fire on civilian refugees gathered under a railroad bridge near No Gun Ri. Quoated as telling troops, "...Let's get rid of all of them". "The Korean claimants said those near the tunnel entrances died first "People pulled dead bodies around them for protection," said survivor Chung Koo-ho, 61 "Mothers wrapped their children with blankets and hugged them with their backs toward the entrances .. My mother died on the second day of shooting." Sang-Hun Choe, Charles J. Hanley and Martha Mendoza, Associated Press Writers, with AP Investigative Researcher Randy Herschaft, "Ex-GIs Tell AP of Korea Killing, in Horace Coleman, A Korean War My Lai, Los Angeles Times, Wednesday, September 29, 1999

Chivington, Col. John M. Sand Creek Massacre, 1864

Cogan, Charles. Former CIA director of the Afghan operation, in 1995 admitted sacrificing the drug war to fight the cold war.McCoy

Colby, William, Former CIA Director, in an interview, compared the embassy's campaign to identify the PKI leadership to the CIA's Phoenix Program in Vietnam. "You shoot them" "The idea of identifying the local apparatus was designed to -- well, you go out and get them to surrender, or you capture or you shoot them," Colby said of the Phoenix Program.

Colindres Aleman, Luis Antonio, Salvadoran SOA graduate. On Tuesday, July 21, released from prison under a new law designed to ease prison overcrowding. Colindres had served almost 18 years of a 30-year sentence for the murders of Roman Catholic nuns Ita Ford, Maura Clark and Dorothy Kazel and layworker Jean Donovan on Dec. 2, 1980. Also released were former guardsman Jose Roberto Moreno Canjura and Daniel Canales. Source: Michael Katz-Lacabe, 22 Jul 1998; School of the Americas Watch.

Collins, Col. Patrick. Officer of the U. S. Defense Intelligence Agency. Said by Emmanuel Constant to have approached him soon after Aristide's outster to have approached Constant and pushed him to organize a front that could balance the Aristide movement and do intelligence work against it. By August 1993 this organization evolved into FRAPH. William Blum, Haiti 1986-1994: Who Will Rid Me of this Turbulent Priest?" excerpted from the book, Killing Hope: U. S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II.

Constant, Emmanuel; Haiti.

Contreras, Col. Manual
, Chile. Established DINA Secret Police under Pinochet.

Cordero Cordona "La Yegua", Especialista Jose Victor. Guatemala. Identified by witness known to Jennifer Harbury, June 25, 1998, as member of Jaguar Avengers death squad.

De Leon Gil, COL Morris Eugenio (Guatemala). School of the Americas Notorious Graduate, 1970. 1994 publicly denounced Rosalina Tuyuc and members of her family when Tuyuc recieved a French Legion of Honor Award for her humanitarian work. Denouncement is tantamount to a death threat. 1988-90, Guest Instructor, School of the Americas.


"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"

Freddy
26th June 03, 01:38 PM
Reports by Name E-K


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Elliott, Judge Robert
Elliott led the l948 Democratic Convention "Georgia walkout protest" over the Democratic party's l948 civil rights platform. Major Joseph A. Blair's Letter concerning the 31 Citizens On Trial For Protesting the SOA15 January l998.
1962, appointed to federal judgeship by John F. Kennedy.
A strident segregationist in the 1960s, Judge Elliott issued injunctions forbidding Dr. King's civil rights marches in his District. Ninety percent of Elliott's civil rights decisions during the 1960s were reversed by higher courts. SOA 25 Sentenced to 6 Months,¡Presente! February/March 1998
The l988 Pulitzer Prize winning book by Taylor Branch titled Parting the Waters: America in the King Years l954-l963 devotes over l2 pages to the efforts Judge Robert Elliott made to stop King and his fellow peaceful demonstrators.Major Joseph A. Blair's Letter concerning the 31 Citizens On Trial For Protesting the SOA15 January l998.
In the 1970's, Judge Elliott set aside the My Lai mass murder conviction of Lt. Calley
The l983 July/Aug issue of The American Lawyer did a feature article assessing the 87-year-old Judge Elliott as the "worst" sitting federal judge in the United States. He continues to sit on the federal bench and continues to prevent American citizens from exercising their U.S. Constitutional rights. He has already sent two Catholic priests to federal prison. Army Captain Charles Litkey and Roy Bourgeois went to prison for l8 months for their first protest. The United States Supreme Court took the case before itself for decision. Charles Litkey received the Congressional Medal of Honor from President Johnson in l968, and he is one of the American citizens who will once again face Judge Elliott. Major Joseph A. Blair's Letter concerning the 31 Citizens On Trial For Protesting the SOA15 January l998.
Three of the 25 SOA repeat protestors were sentenced to 6 months in prison and a $3,000 fine, the maximum penalty, on November 19, 1997. On January 20 and 21, 1998, the remaining 22 were tried by Federal Judge J. Robert Elliott. Judge Elliott sentenced each of the 22 defendants to 6 months in federal prison and a $3,000 fine. Meanwhile, the SOA graduates responsible for the massacre of thousands seem unlikely to spend a single day behind bars. SOA 25 Sentenced to 6 Months,¡Presente! February/March 1998


Faundez Norambuena, *LTC Alfonso. Chile. 1969, Chilean Officer Orientation graduate, School of the Americas. Faundez was active in the Villa Grimaldi concentration camp in which nearly 4,500 prisoners were held.


Fernandez Larios, 1LT Armando. Chile.
1970, Combat Arms Orientation graduate, U. S. Army School of the Americas.
1973, second in command to General Sergio Arellano Stark, whose "caravan of death" tour of northern cities in 1973 resulted in dozens of summary executions.
1974, one of two DINA agents charged with assassinating General Carlos Prats González, who was defense minister under the regime Augusto Pinochet overthrew. Prats and his wife were killed by a car bomb in Buenos Aires, Argentina.
1976, involved in the assassination in Washington, D. C. of Orlando Letelier, Chile's foreign minister under the Allende government. Letelier was also murdered by a car bomb.
1979, indicted by U.S. grand jury for involvement in the Letelier assassination.
"Notorious Chilean School of the Americas Graduates", Vicky Imerman and Heather Dean, researchers, School of the Americas Watch


Flores Arana, "Don Fausto", Mayor Hugo. Guatemala. Identified by witness known to Jennifer Harbury, June 25, 1998, as member of Jaguar Avengers death squad.

Francois, Joseph Michel. Military police chief who led coup in Haiti that ousted elected president Jean-Bertrand Aristide in 1991. Francois ran U. S. trained counter-narcotics unit. March 7, 1997, Miami court indicts Francois for arranging to smuggle 33 tons of cocaine and heroin into the U. S. over 9 years. Robert Parry, "Lost History: 'Project X' and School of Assassins. The Consortium (a paid subscriber service)


Garcia, General Jose. El Salvador. School of the Americas Notorious Graduate. Linked to the 1984 rape and murder of four U. S. churchwomen, two of whom wer Maryknoll Sisters Ita Ford and Maura Clarke. Now living well in Palm Coast, Florida. Father Roy Bourgeois Gets Peace Award


Garcia de Paz, Carlos Ramiro, Guatemalan Congressman. Sept. 27, 1987, Central American CIA agent, Randy Capister, the Guatemala military (G-2) and myself, seized over 2,404 kilos of cocaine from a Guatemalan Congressman, Carlos Ramiro Garcia de Paz and the Medellin cartel (biggest cocaine seizure in Central America and top five ever). However, several individuals were murdered and raped on said operation. CIA agent and myself saw the individuals being interrogated. The Congressman was never arrested or charged; the case directly implicated the Guatemalan Government in drug trafficking, however Garcia still has his US visa and continues to travel at his pleasure into the US. Written Statement for the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, April 27, 1998 of Celerino Castillo III (DEA, Retired), author of Powderburns: Cocaine, Contras and the Drug War

Gerard, Tom, former CIA employee, 1994. School of the Americas Notorious Graduate, 1969. 1982, Established, protected, and participated in the activities of the rightist death squad "MAS". Nov 22, 1994 dismissed from command in an effort by President Semper to root out corruption and drug trafficking among the Colombian Armed forces. Guest Speaker, SOA, 1988.

Gomes Guillermo, "Don Rolando" and "Laco", Mayor Alberto. Guatemala. Identified by witness known to Jennifer Harbury, June 25, 1998, as member of Jaguar Avengers death squad.

Gramajo, GEN Hector (Guatemala). Written Statement for the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, April 27, 1998 of Celerino Castillo III (DEA, Retired), author of Powderburns: Cocaine, Contras and the Drug War

Gregg, Donald P.,
hired by George Bush Aug 1982 as principal adviser for national security affairs. In late 1984, Gregg introduced Oliver North to Felix Rodriguez,Two days after his January 1985 meeting, Rodriguez went to El Salvador and made arrangements to set up his base of operations at Ilopango air base. On Nov. 01, 1984, the FBI arrested Rodriguez's partner, Gerard Latchinian and convicted him of smuggling $10.3 million in cocaine into the U.S. On Jan. 18, 1985, Rodriguez allegedly met with money-launderer Ramon Milan-Rodriguez, who had moved $1.5 billion for the Medellin cartel. Milan testified before a Senate Investigation on the Contras' drug smuggling, that before this 1985 meeting, he had granted Felix Rodriguez's request and given $10 million from the cocaine for the Contras. Written Statement for the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, April 27, 1998 of Celerino Castillo III (DEA, Retired), author of Powderburns: Cocaine, Contras and the Drug War

In the wake of the Hasenfus debacle, Donald Gregg, National Security Advisor to Vice President George Bush, tried to distance himself from the activities of his old friend Felix Rodriguez. When Oliver North was assigned to the National Security Council in 1981, Gregg was the head of the NSC's Intelligence Directorate.Contra-Crack Guide: Reading between the lines," in The Consortium (paid internet service)


Guerrero Barrios, Colonel Julian.
School of Americas class of 1981. Major, Commando Operations. Charged with "violence gainst the people" for leadership in torture and massacre of over a dozen young men in Jalisco, Mexico. Congressman Kennedy's call for closure of the SOA, Jan 12, 1998
"[S]ix officers received GAFE counterdrug training provided by the Department of Defense in the United States pursuant to 1004 National Defense Authorization Act for [fiscal year] 1991, as amended," Newberry wrote. The six officers included Lt. Col. Julian Guerrero Barrios, who allegedly headed the torture operation. "None of the 28 military personnel involved in this case received training in or from the United States through IMET [International Military Education and Training] or the School of the Americas," Newberry noted. "The 7th Special Forces Group (Airborne) at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, provides GAFE training in the United States. In response to this incident the 7th SFG (A) immediately initiated a thorough review of their training..." Apr 22, 1998 letter from Acting Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Drug Enforcement Policy and Support Robert Newberry to US Congress member Rep. Esteban Torres (D-CA) regarding "an alleged human rights incident that occurred in Zapopan, Guadalajara in December 1997." in which a unit of the Air-Mobile Special Forces Group (GAFE) has been accused of the torture of 29 youths and the torture death of one in San Juan de Ocotan in the western state of Jalisco, the capital of which is Guadalajara. Source: "US Admits Training Mexican Death Squad, "Weekly News Update on the Americas, #440, 7/5/98, published by Nicaragua Solidarity Network of NY * 339 Lafayette St, New York, NY 10012 * 212-674-9499 fax: 212-674-9139 * or email. This material came from PeaceNet, a non-profit progressive networking service. For more information, send a message to Peacenet



Guerrero Paz, GEN Manuel Jaime (Colombia). School of the Americas Notorious Honoree. 1982, soldiers under his command tortured four prisoners, one of whom died of injuries. 1988, personally issued orders for arrest of 10 union leaders, who were released two weeks later without charge. 1988, SOA Hall of Fame.
Gutierrez Isaza , GEN Marino (Colombia). School of the Americas Notorious Graduate. 1973. 1982 Implicated in the disappearance and death of Gustavo Albeiro Munoz Hurtado. Nov 22, 1994 dismissed from command in an effort by President Semper to root out corruption and drug trafficking among the Colombian Armed forces. Guest Instructor, SOA, 1985-96.

Guzman Rodriquez, GEN Hernan Jose (Colombia).
School of the Americas Notorious Graduate, 1969.
1986 commanded the soldiers who detained, tortured, gang raped and executed Yolanda Acevedo Carvajal, then concocted the story that she committed suicide by shooting herself in the nape of the neck. 1987-90 protected and aided paramilitary death squad "MAS"; during this period it was responsible for the deaths of at least 149 people. 1993 SOA Hall of Fame.

Dismissed in 1994 because of alleged links to the paramilitary death squad MAS, which between 1987 and 1990 was responsible for at least 149 executions. Guzman's portrait hangs in the SOA "Hall of Fame" in Ft. Benning. "Colombian Human Rights Abuses Tied to School of Americas Graduates, Wednesday, July 29, 1998

Helms, Richard. Director, Central Intelligence Agency. "We're not in the Boy Scouts," Richard Helms was fond of saying when he ran the Central Intelligence Agency. He was correct, of course. Boy Scouts do not ordinarily bribe foreign politicians, invade other countries with secret armies, spread lies, conduct medical experiments, build stocks of poison, pass machine guns to people who plan to turn them on their leaders, or plot to kill men such as Lumumba or Castro or others who displeased Washington. The CIA did these things, and more, over a long span of years. On whose orders? This is a question a Pulitzer prizewinning writer addresses in an adaptation from his forthcoming book about Helms and the Agency, The Man Who Kept the Secrets. Thomas Powers Culture, communication and control, The Atlantic Monthly, August 1979


Herrera Jiménez, MAJ Carlos. Chile. 1971, Combat Arms Orientation School of the Americas. Sentenced in December 1991 for the torture and murder of a transport worker in La Serena. Also implicated in the abduction and murder of trade unionist Tucapel Jiménez in 1982.


Hooker, George, U. S. Defensse Intelligence Agency chief in Guatemala from 1985 to 1989.
The Real Drug Lords, site 1 or site 2

Costa Rica requested Hull's extradiction back to Costa Rica from U. S. for murder, drug trafficking and hostile acts against Nicaragua in violation of Costa Rica's neutrality. Also accused by Colombian drug kingpin Carlos Lehder on an ABC news program of pumping about 30 tons of cocaine into the US per year from his ranch in Costa Rica. Untitled material on Drug-running and ArkansasSite 1 or Site 2


Ibarra, Gilberto. Colombia Army Captain and SOA graduate. Forced three peasant children to serve as minesweepers for his troops, resulting in the deaths of two and serious injuries to the third child. "Colombian Human Rights Abuses Tied to School of Americas Graduates, Wednesday, July 29, 1998
Ilesca, Capitan. Guatemala. Identified by witness known to Jennifer Harbury, June 25, 1998, as member of Jaguar Avengers death squad.

Iturriaga Neumann, Eduardo. Chile. 1965, Basic Airborne Course School of the Americas. According to testimony by Luz Arce, Iturriaga and other officers of the DINA used political prisoners that had been tortured into collaboration as secretaries and analysts in their offices.


Karamessine, Thomas CIA Deputy for Plans.


Kissinger, Henry, National Security Advisor,
According to September 16, 1970 obtained by National Security Archive, CIA task force under David Atlee Phillips and supervised by Thomas Karamessines must prepare an action plan for National Security Advisor Henry Kissinger within 48 hours.
October 15, 1970 Memorandum of Conversation between Kissinger, Thomas Karamessines, and Alexander Haig, records a discussion of promoting a coup in Chile, known as "Track II" of covert operations to block Allende. The three officials discuss the possibility that the plot of one Chilean military official, Roberto Viaux, might fail with "unfortunate repercussions" for U.S. objectives. Kissinger orders the CIA to "continue keeping the pressure on every Allende weak spot in sight."
Source: Peter Kornbluh, National Security Archive, CHILE: DECLASSIFIED U.S. DOCUMENTS ON PINOCHET AND THE 1973 COUP


Krassnoff Marchenko, 1LT Miguel. Chile

"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"

Freddy
26th June 03, 01:41 PM
etc. etc.




"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"

Freddy
26th June 03, 02:13 PM
I just felt like posting. So I did!

"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"

Vargas
26th June 03, 05:34 PM
Wastrel was right, you are on drugs. I know for a fact that the 'Operation Tailwind' story was complete bullshit. CNN fired Peter Arnett for even trying to pretend that was solid journalism (not that CNN really cared about the reputation of SOG personnel, they just didn't want to get sued for libel). If you want to keep throwing out those tired old lefty 'facts' that prove how evil the U.S. is, knock yourself out. I've actually been to some of the countries in that list. Done my share of humanitarian relief missions, too. Reality can be a little different than the version you get from the ANSWER website. When you grow up and figure out how the world really works, let me know.

"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"

Omar
26th June 03, 05:58 PM
Touchy touchy...

Who owns CNN?

How does censorship work un the US?

Do you have couter examples or only ad hominum attacks? For instance, I still haven't heard any explanations of the illegal internment camps we maintain here at home. Calling someone a nut or saying they're on drugs doesn't make it not true.

I'm sure you hit the nail on the head for why Peter Arnett was fired. They didn't want to get sued for libel. You don't have to actually commit libel to get sued for it though. Thank you for this excellent example of censorship in the US. <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>



BAH ! Puny Humans !

Vargas
26th June 03, 06:37 PM
(eye roll) Okay, I'll explain this in simple terms that even a 'martial artist' can understand. Back in Vietnam, there was something called the Air Rescue Service. They flew A-1 prop planes (close air support/rescue escort) and HH-3/HH-53 helicopters. They also had balls the size of watermelons, but that's a story for a different thread. Anyway, sometimes they had to make rescues/extractions close to enemy forces and under triple canopy jungle. Therefore, they used CS agent (tear gas) to suppress the groundfire, put some PJs in gas masks on the ground to pick up the retching survivor or survivors and got the hell out of Dodge. Technically, this isn't allowed under the Geneva Convention, although napalm is. Go figure. At the same time, chemical weapons were being stored by the Air Force on Okinawa, that being a front-line base in the Cold War and all.

Fast forward 30 years. All of a sudden, a disgruntled USAF NCO makes up some bullshit story that Peter Arnett doesn't even bother to check out. Arnett doesn't particularly like the U.S. military, especially the part that does special ops, and relishes the opportunity to make them look like assholes. The CNN military affairs analyst warns the producers that the story is extremely shady and shouldn't be run. They ran it anyway and got their ass handed to them by Dick Secord and the rest of the vets from SOG. Arnett is fired and apologies are profusely offered to the SOF guys who had to watch that piece of shit aired on world wide TV.

Now, the question becomes, how do I know this? Well, I currently fly the same HH-53s (now called MH-53M Pave Lows) that were used by the Air Rescue Service. My group commander back in 1999 was Col. Steve Connelly, who first flew 53s out of Takli Royal Thai Air Base in 1970 with the Air Rescue Service. A few of the pilots (me included) asked him what the real deal was. He told us. Since I've flown with Connelly, deployed with him, seen what kind of man he is, I believe him. I don't know Peter Arnett, have zero respect for the things I have heard about him and wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire. Oddly enough, I believed Colonel Connelly's version of events. So did the CNN leadership, hence the retraction and mea culpas.

Censorship? Sure, if being a lying sack of shit is now an accepted part of being a journalist, then, yeah, call it censorship, call it suppression, call it whatever the hell you want. Just don't pretend you know what the fuck is going on just because you have a smattering of education and know how to use a computer. I swear to God, everyone on this fucking planet thinks they're some kind of expert on military affairs. And of course, I always get the "But my dad/brother/uncle/second cousin/third-grade teacher was a Special Forces/SEAL/Force Recon/Sniper/Delta/Mighty Morphin Power Ranger, so I know a thing or two". To which the only accurate answer is, "No, you actually know jack-shit, but thanks for trying." Idiots.



"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"

Edited by - Vargas on June 26 2003 18:43:48

Omar
26th June 03, 08:40 PM
Technically, this isn't allowed under the Geneva Convention, although napalm is. Go figure.

So by your own admission it was illegal. ANd how does the fact that Peter Arnet is an asshole make it o.k.? I've never doubted the bravery of the soldiers out there or what choices individuals have had to make in the field. The fact that they had "balls the size of watermelons" is admirable but like you said, another topic. The courage, respect and honor of our enlisted men does not make the governments actions o.k. I'm not even familiar with the story but I noticed you haven't contradicted anything in the story. You've just explained how and why it happened. Tell me about the part the reporter lied about and I'll eat crow. I've eaten it before. No big deal.

Not to you, Vargas, but just generally, the fact that other countries have done the same or that something has been going on for a long time has no bearing whatsoever on it's morality.

BAH ! Puny Humans !

Deadpan Scientist
26th June 03, 09:09 PM
I don't have time to reply much, but if you were joking brandeissansoo where was the smiley face? huh? answer me that you young wippernsapper!! :) See? that means joke, you stupid fucker! :)

Get a clue.



I think I'm really funny... ;)

I'm laughing too, at you.



So to respond.
1. If someone lashes out with the assumption that criticizing the Gov't is not patriotic. Fuck them and fuck their ignorance. This is the divisive Spiro Agnew the asshole crook technique. It worked then amongst the nonthinking back in the Vietnam war era and seems to be working well now.

I did not make the argument that you are not patriotic because you are criticizing the government. Nice straw man though...



2. The El Salvador references were given in haste, true, but they were given because the UNITED STATES created the gov'ts of El Salvador, Nicaragua, and Guatemala.

That was our first mistake. We should have just taken over the country and immediately instituted our form of government. Look what happens when we let other people govern.



I'm sad that murder is done in my name, with my money, by my so-called leaders.

The US govt was not killing the vast majority of people in any of the situations you provided. It was the country's OWN government, which recieved aid from the USA. Financing regimes is a LAZY way to go about things. If you want something done right, do it yourself.



If your taxes being used to murder doesn't bother you, I'm sorry for your lack of feelings and morals.

Did we pay money for the specific purpose of killing innocent civilians? Guns don't kill people by themselves. It always takes a human being to pull that trigger. Our tax money was spent to finance weapons, not to kill people.



the FRENCH (home of freedom fries).

You are an idiot. They are called French fries because of the way they are cut. Not to mention the moniker "freedom fries" was obviously created in the good old USA.



The amount of foreign aid that we have spent is dwarfed by the amount of profits US companies have made by exploiting low wage workers in the 3rd world.

So? We are still doing more than any other country.



The real tragedy is that all that profit went to corporate bigwigs that dodge tax laws and live high off the hog.

Ah, so we should have a Revolution and redistribute the wealth then...
Now I'm starting to understand your logic(maybe illogic would be a better way of putting it)



The money spent on aid to foreign nations was actually paid by normal decent taxpayers like you and me.

Umm... do you actually get to keep track of every dollar you pay in taxes? How do you know that all your taxes didn't go to pay some angry IRS agent's salary. BTW, normal and decent? Do I get a tax break for being wierd? Your statement is absurd.



We need to have some real tax reform (like make the rich pay more)

Do you know how much of the total taxes the top 5% of wage earners pay?


and then we can really help poor folks in 3rd world countries have a decent life.

We would better serve them by taking over their country and bringing the basic services nearly every american enjoys on a daily basis.



and maybe then they won't think Osama bin Laden is such a cool guy).

The members of the Taliban had a very nice lifestyle, full of money, cars, women, electricity, etc. They seemed to like Osama just fine.






Edited by - brandeissansoo on June 26 2003 21:16:31

Alter7nate
26th June 03, 09:20 PM
This is the truth:

President Bush, the man of peace...rose to power.

Sept. 11, 2001...mankind in cry for a man of peace, President Bush offers it by promising to destroy the terrorist networks of the world.

President Bush AKA the Anti-Christ reveals his true self by invading Iraq.

Iraq was never meant to fight off the Americans, they are supposed to lose. Ever wonder why there was practically no resistence?

I don't want to go in depth but the end has been written down...the ancient mayans have say that the fifth and last world will come to an end in 2011 A.D.

Diseases will spread near the end of times...AKA SARS

Put it all together...make sense? (I know too much)

Osiris
26th June 03, 09:30 PM
"We would better serve them by taking over their country and bringing the basic services nearly every american enjoys on a daily basis."

I hope youre joking.

"If a man was to tell me he wasnt God I would have to ask him what he was." Warcloud

Deadpan Scientist
26th June 03, 09:33 PM
Do you?

Deadpan Scientist
26th June 03, 10:19 PM
Of course, this new world government would be ruled by the winner of a martial arts tournament. Matches would be to the death, except that you have to turn into an animal to finally kill your opponent.

Vargas
26th June 03, 10:32 PM
What, you mean Jean Claude Van-Damme would rule the world? Now THAT is a scary thought.

Omar, I have neither the time nor the inclination to tell the entire SOG/CNN/Arnett/Operation Tailwind saga. I assumed you knew the basic story. And, of course, my Vonnegut-esque reference to a non-lethal weapon being banned but jellied gasoline and naptha being A-OK with the Geneva Convention sailed right over your head. Tell me, is it dark up there?

RE: Central Ameria. If anyone really wants to read about a right-wing scumbag the U.S. should have dusted back in the 80s, do a Google search for Roberto D'Aubuisson and/or ARENA. I know a few old SF guys that remember wanting to kill him so bad they could taste it. Unfortunately, he was an anti-communist, so no bullet for Roberto. I wonder what really happened to that fucker? Of course, now I'm curious. I'll post what I find.

"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"

poet
26th June 03, 11:30 PM
Vargas -
"And, of course, my Vonnegut-esque reference to a non-lethal weapon being banned but jellied gasoline and naptha being A-OK with the Geneva Convention sailed right over your head."

Omar I truly hope this did not go over your head.
That would make you 2 feet tall.

I agree with your assertion that just because America is richer, does humanitarian missions, and does not have tribal violence that does not make some of the things we do right. But keep the things we do wrong in perspective.

Vargas, you also need to keep what we do right in perspective. It does not justify ALL our actions so stop bringing it up like it does.

I am sorry to sit in the middle but I believe you both have correct points but are not totally correct.

Osiris
26th June 03, 11:33 PM
"Of course, this new world government would be ruled by the winner of a martial arts tournament. Matches would be to the death, except that you have to turn into an animal to finally kill your opponent."

Oh, thats cool then.

"If a man was to tell me he wasnt God I would have to ask him what he was." Warcloud

Vargas
26th June 03, 11:45 PM
Sounds good to me, the day I claim I'm totally right and everyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong, just go ahead and whip my ass. Yeah, I've seen the U.S. step on it's dick more than once when I was overseas. In my opinion, though, it's more incompetence mixed with arrogance, rather than wanton malice and cruelty. My wife is Canadese, so she keeps me from getting too full of myself when I start talking politics. By the way, nice signature, poet ;)

"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"

Vargas
26th June 03, 11:50 PM
Hey poet, forgot to ask, but are you going to the grappling tournament at UNLV on Saturday? It's at Lied Gymnasium South (I think) and it should go all day. I'm doing lightweight intermediate this time around (last tourney at intermediate for me), so come on by and wish me luck. I'll be with the Jackson Gaidojutsu team (bunch of guys in black t-shirts), so we should stick out.

"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"

Omar
27th June 03, 12:03 AM
Thanks for the reminder, Poet. At first I kind of forgot who I was arguing with. Yesterday it suddenly dawned on me that this was the same Vargas who actually serves in the military and has demonstrated more knowledge of east Asian history than %95 of the people I know. Also, for the last two days, I've done a lot of posting at work when I had to write in a hurry and some of these coutner posts were too long for me to read as thouroughly as they deserved. I got so pissed I missed some of the sarchasm.

Today on the radio I heard some students from a high school in Oakland talking about how they were locked in the school and interrogated by the CIA for supposedly making threats on the life of the president!?! wtf!?! Am I still in the same country? Nobody was arrested or anything but they were intimidated and scared. Weird.

Alter7nate,
Stop it your scaring me. I'm pretty damn religious and certain of my friends keep me fairly up to date on prophecy. I'm not into it that much but I'm familiar enough to get creeped out by comments like yours.


It's actually my religious education that gets me the most freaked out by Bush and what's been happening lately at home in the states. I've spent a lot of time studying mass hypnosis and cult indoctrination and got way too far into the occult structure of the third reich and stuff like that. To me, that's the path we seem to be on. We aren't there yet but the recent Patriot acts and the laws specifically targeting muslims are all too familiar.

Vargas,
sorry dude. I'll keep it civil, but I can't deny how strongly I feel about this stuff.

BAH ! Puny Humans !

Vargas
27th June 03, 12:08 AM
No worries, mate, keep up the good posts. I'm just cranky from cutting weight (I'll never eat tuna again, and this time I mean it!) True, we may never see completely eye to eye, but even my wife and I get into heated debates over world politics, so it's all good. I just wish I'd gotten over to China when I lived in Korea. I'm still kicking myself in the ass for that missed chance.

"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"

poet
27th June 03, 12:22 AM
Vargas -
" In my opinion, though, it's more incompetence mixed with arrogance, rather than wanton malice and cruelty."

That is my feeling too.

"I'll never eat tuna again, and this time I mean it!"

I hope any competition I am in will not be that caloricly restrictive, I love pizza :- )

Freddy
27th June 03, 03:07 PM
Vargas- I'm sure you get another chance to visit China one day.
I have eatten my share of tuna and I hate that stuff with a passion too.
I never see eye to eye (when it comes to politics)with some of my friends in the army and also with one of my family member whose in the U.S. marines. So of course we get into these debates. Its all good like you say.

"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"

Freddy
27th June 03, 03:11 PM
Vargas- I have to agree that Operation Tailwind bit was totally bogus.
I dont think it was Peter Arnette who wrote it????? I dunno?

"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"

Samuel Browning
27th June 03, 04:12 PM
Hi Vargas:

I believe that Roberto D'auuisson died of cancer a number of years back after a rich life that included probably bumping off Salvadorian arch-Bishop Romaro, I remember Chris Dickey of Newsweek mentioned the evidence for this in his book "With the Contras". I was also under the impression that the US government had a close relationship with this individual regardless of what individual soldiers thought of him. Please tell me if you know anything about this relationship.

Vargas
29th June 03, 07:42 PM
Yeah, as it turned out, D'Aubissoin died in 1992, hopefully in great pain. He was the leader of ARENA, the right-wing political party of El Salvador at the time and passed the mantle on to some other jack-off. Unless I'm mistaken, ARENA is still the party in power in El Salvador, which sucks ass, but hopefully that won't last.

As for U.S. military personnel having heartburn with 'official policy', you're right, it happens a lot. Buddies of mine use to fly humanitarian relief to the Kurds in Turkey and N. Iraq right after Gulf War I. On the way back to base, they could see fighter-bombers from the Turkish Air Force flying the other way, getting ready to bomb the shit out the villages that the U.S. just delivered food and medicine to. Pissed off a lot of SOF personnel but there isn't much you can do in situations like that. I've heard similar stories about El Salvador and other places, so it does happen from time to time.

"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"

Edited by - Vargas on June 29 2003 19:42:33