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Kat
13th February 03, 09:38 PM
I was just wondering what people think of the great, wonderful and vengeful being known as god?

I dont really believe, myself.

GOTO
13th February 03, 09:44 PM
nope no god. just something people who dont wanna be alone made up a very long time ago.

Valde Fandango
13th February 03, 09:44 PM
God bless Satan.

Coldelf-Talons
13th February 03, 09:52 PM
God is non-existant.

Made up by people who are unwilling to admit we're simply fertilizer after we die.

Kat
13th February 03, 09:56 PM
I reckon we are a part of some brainy, eight year old kid's experiment. He keeps us in a fishtank.

Shalank
13th February 03, 09:58 PM
I for one do believe in God, so bah to yall!

Energiser
13th February 03, 10:06 PM
imo, it's no more intellectually competent to decide there isn't a god than there is one, given that there is absolutely zero non-refutable evidence either way.

You can argue the point if you like, but evolutionary theory is as patently unscientific as creation science.

I beleive in a god. I'm not sure if he's anything like what the major (and non-major) religions say he's like, but i beleive he exists.

Loliena
13th February 03, 10:12 PM
Actually Valde, even Satan believes in God. This has alot to do with the way we were raised, I was rasied as a Catholic so obviously Id believe. Sure I have had my doubts, like most people have, but I can not help the overwhelming feeling that there is a God out there, and that everyone I have once loved and has past on is there with him right now. I would never live life thinking otherwise, to me there would not be a point to really live if something better wouldnt happen to us after our deaths. I am sure I ll get flamed, since it seems the majority so far are non believers, but so be it, you think you are right just like I do. Anyways, so many miracles happen, there has to be an explanation for it imo, and a higher power is my answer. Hopefully someday you will see a miracle of your own Kat to make you know for sure, someone is out there looking out for you.

Kat
13th February 03, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by Loliena
Actually Valde, even Satan believes in God. This has alot to do with the way we were raised, I was rasied as a Catholic so obviously Id believe. Sure I have had my doubts, like most people have, but I can not help the overwhelming feeling that there is a God out there, and that everyone I have once loved and has past on is there with him right now. I would never live life thinking otherwise, to me there would not be a point to really live if something better wouldnt happen to us after our deaths. I am sure I ll get flamed, since it seems the majority so far are non believers, but so be it, you think you are right just like I do. Anyways, so many miracles happen, there has to be an explanation for it imo, and a higher power is my answer. Hopefully someday you will see a miracle of your own Kat to make you know for sure, someone is out there looking out for you.
Sorry, I dont think I ever will believe. If there was such thing as a god, then he/she (what fucking ever) is an absolute asshole; forgiving ... my ass!
If he was so forgiving, why do people die, in accidents that aren't their fault? or why does he let perfectly healthy children die? How the FUCK can that be god's plan???
Was this all part of God's plan too? ...
http://users.chariot.net.au/~stevenstella/melissas%20story.html She was only 2 and a half, when god added her to his plan
Sorry, I am not having a go at you directly, I just think it's all bullshit

Energiser
13th February 03, 10:40 PM
Kat, for the concept of free will to be possible, things like this will always be possible and, unfortunately, occur.

This is not evidence for nor against the existence of god anyway, that is just a "omg if god exists he r such a bastage!", which is entirely different.

Kat
13th February 03, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by Energiser
Kat, for the concept of free will to be possible, things like this will always be possible and, unfortunately, occur.

This is not evidence for nor against the existence of god anyway, that is just a "omg if god exists he r such a bastage!", which is entirely different.
Sorry, i get a bit wound up on the whole "God is so wonderful, blah blah blah" subjects

Derreck
13th February 03, 10:48 PM
I'm with Ener, I think the atheists are just as confused as the believers. How the hell could we possibly know? In 23 years, I've experienced wondrous occurences and horrible tragedies alike... There is no way I could say one way or another.

Uuudar
13th February 03, 11:01 PM
Agnostic. There is no clear decisive evidence in either direction. However, I'm leaning toward no God or we are epistemelogically unable to understand the nature of God.

Here's an arguement to ponder over by a philosopher named Baier:

Premise 1: God is omnicient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent.

(this is the "normal," Christian view of God)

Premise 2: If God existed, there would be no evil (suffering).

Premise 3: There is evil (suffering).

Conclusion: There is no God.

Wyrmwuud
13th February 03, 11:05 PM
I figure the Judeo-Christian perspective (particularly Catholic, hellfire-brimstone-shit-talking-Baptists, wacknut fringe Christians, and Islamic perspectives) is rooted in the manipulation of a person's most primal fears while candy-coating it all in an often hypocritical veneer of benevolence and circular logic...
On an individual basis, I don't have a problem with that. Personally, I don't believe in anything I can't verify with my own senses. My faith lies within myself, my only fears lie in whether or not I, and folks that share my perspective, will be allowed to maintain our freedom from religion.
On a scientific basis, once again it's really just a personal esthetic. I don't see at all where the advance of technology impinges on a person's faith- as a child being raised in a Christian household, the perspective had been amongst peers and parentage that the more advances and discoveries were made, it only exemplified the elaborateness and wonder of the being that created everything (nowadays, I figure it's a lot more rational that matter and energy, or whatever core 'thing' composes both of these items, have likely always been around, and that the notion that everything was created from nothing by an uber-boojum just smacks of the very human need for every little thing to have a beginning and end).

On a political basis, it all gets fucked up. That's where the lever provided in a person's faith can get used, where that fear can get manipulated and put towards an ambitious party's ends. Marx was not entirely correct in calling religion the 'opiate' of the masses. An opiate will just gloss a person over and lay them out on the floor in a stupefied bliss until the next hit. Religion's more like an alcohol- when abused, it creates mad assholes, barfights, beaten women, neglected children (or worse), miserable, spoiled and wasted lives. The key phrase here is 'when abused'. I understand that there are plenty of people with merit that lead nice, quiet lives of piety and don't wish a bit of harm on anyone- perfect exemplars of their chosen religions... on an individual basis.
Politically though, religion's just a tool. Its use as a tool are exemplified in the horrors of the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, and more modern, in the current trend of despotic governments to twist the Islamic system of <i>sharia</i> into brutal public legislature that openly endorses the objectification and repression of women, and beatings or executions for those deemed 'heretics'... for often whatever reason the local strong-arms consider heresy.

Shit. Run out of time and now I have to go to work, where they've enabled the workstations to receive the internet, but tell me to only visit work-related sites. It's true. So, I don't use the internet at fucking all. *Shrug*

Energiser
13th February 03, 11:07 PM
that arguement is flawed, because the christian god created a world in which he wished to give his creations free will.

In order for there to be free will, there has to be a choice.

God can still be omnicient, omipotent and omnibenevolent and there be suffering in the world.

Energiser
13th February 03, 11:10 PM
Probably true for the most part wyrm, though that's more of a commentary on world religion rather than the existance of God.

eFFIX
13th February 03, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by Kat
Sorry, I dont think I ever will believe. If there was such thing as a god, then he/she (what fucking ever) is an absolute asshole; forgiving ... my ass!
If he was so forgiving, why do people die, in accidents that aren't their fault? or why does he let perfectly healthy children die? How the FUCK can that be god's plan???
Was this all part of God's plan too? ...
http://users.chariot.net.au/~stevenstella/melissas%20story.html She was only 2 and a half, when god added her to his plan
Sorry, I am not having a go at you directly, I just think it's all bullshit

Go read the Book of Job in the old testiment.

Kat
13th February 03, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by eFFIX
Go read the Book of Job in the old testiment.
no!

Energiser
13th February 03, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by Kat
no!

Then remain ignorant.

I mean, heaven forfend you actually do some research on the subject if it gets you so worked up.

Tomax
13th February 03, 11:54 PM
Quote from the ole' Sophists:

Nothing is for certain, not even this.


On the other hand, if there is a god, why does he expect me to worship him? To feed his omnipotent ego?
And another thing, if Satan is so bad... why is he in charge of hell where he punishes evil people.... sounds like he's kinda good. If he was Al Pacino I'd sign up with him in a second. At least he gave a shit enough to put in an appearance.
Anyway religion is only there to control the masses and explain the unknown. I'm not saying there isn't a god. I don't know. But the chances are kinda slim and if it's a god that any of our current religions are based on.. the chances are even slimmer.
I'm down with the ancient Greeks, their gods had personality and a good storyline.

eFFIX
13th February 03, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by Tomax
Quote from the ole' Sophists:

Nothing is for certain, not even this.


On the other hand, if there is a god, why does he expect me to worship him? To feed his omnipotent ego?
And another thing, if Satan is so bad... why is he in charge of hell where he punishes evil people.... sounds like he's kinda good. If he was Al Pacino I'd sign up with him in a second. At least he gave a shit enough to put in an appearance.
Anyway religion is only there to control the masses and explain the unknown. I'm not saying there isn't a god. I don't know. But the chances are kinda slim and if it's a god that any of our current religions are based on.. the chances are even slimmer.
I'm down with the ancient Greeks, their gods had personality and a good storyline.

And vestile virgins! or was that the romans...

Valde Fandango
14th February 03, 12:00 AM
www.comaamerica.com

Loliena
14th February 03, 12:07 AM
if there is a god, why does he expect me to worship him? Everything you have right now, or have ever known is all to thanks of God imo. Thats why we pray to him. You make it sound so awful, do you take everything for granted? Kat, what has happened to this little girl is indeed very sad and awful, but we cant blame God or hate him for it. God wrote us all a book when he made us, and this is the story of our life, when he wants the story to end it will. And Tormax God gave, gave, gave to us, so why expect more? Be thankful for everything you have. The more questions you ask though, the more doubts you may have. If you really want to know why we worship him go ask a priest, someone who can give you more answers. But also remember that he is our Savior, well Jesus is, who gave his life to save us all, so we wouldnt all be damned to hell.
PS The Devil is being punished and tortured himself, he isnt the one punishing bad people, God is, thats why the Devil was sent there. You think he sleeps under red satin sheets or something? Dont think so.....he burns there as well, and he wants people on his side, the more in hell the better, so some day he can maybe try to take over heaven. I know this may sound stupid to some of you, but it is just a little bit of what I believe.

Valde Fandango
14th February 03, 12:09 AM
I worship Loliena, she's rad.

Zeta
14th February 03, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by Uuudar
Agnostic. There is no clear decisive evidence in either direction. However, I'm leaning toward no God or we are epistemelogically unable to understand the nature of God.

Here's an arguement to ponder over by a philosopher named Baier:

Premise 1: God is omnicient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent.

(this is the "normal," Christian view of God)

Premise 2: If God existed, there would be no evil (suffering).

Premise 3: There is evil (suffering).

Conclusion: There is no God.

If everything was good, and there was no evil. How would you know it was good? You can't have good without evil. Its there for a reason.

If you study religion in the least. Then you know that the single greatest gift (Pre Christ) that was given to humans. Was free will. The ability to do as you believe. If there isn't evil, then there isn't a choice.

Uuudar
14th February 03, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by Energiser
that arguement is flawed, because the christian god created a world in which he wished to give his creations free will.

In order for there to be free will, there has to be a choice.

God can still be omnicient, omipotent and omnibenevolent and there be suffering in the world.

Ok, let's go with the free will thing here. God could potentially take away disease such as AIDS. This does not infringe on free will and would take away tons of suffering out of the world.

Loliena
14th February 03, 12:13 AM
So you blame God for AIDS? Does that mean you believe then?

He is not here to fix our every mistake, we need to stop expecting that

Energiser
14th February 03, 12:13 AM
There will always be something to replace it.

If god takes out one thing, why wouldn't he just take out them all?

It's all relative when you look at it like this.

There IS suffering, or there is NO suffering.

if there IS, people will complain about it, no matter how much it is, they have no other basis for comparison.

people would still die and be unhappy and murder people and die senseless deaths if god removed aids. what's the point?

Uuudar
14th February 03, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by Loliena
So you blame God for AIDS? Does that mean you believe then?

He is not here to fix our every mistake, we need to stop expecting that

The point is, since there is no God, evil exists. Hence, AIDS and other diseases.

Energiser
14th February 03, 12:16 AM
Originally posted by Loliena
So you blame God for AIDS? Does that mean you believe then?

He is not here to fix our every mistake, we need to stop expecting that

It's a bit hard not to blame God for AIDS, considering the fact that if he exists and is the christian god he created the universe, the earth, and us, and therefore ultimately every set of conceivable circumstances humans will encounter.

Blame is probably the wrong word. God is responsible for AIDS existing, in this scenario, simply because he is responsible for everything, including the choices humans make with their free will, regardless of the fact that he may have had no say in those choices.

Energiser
14th February 03, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by Uuudar
The point is, since there is no God, evil exists. Hence, AIDS and other diseases.

If there is no god, evil does not exist.

If there is no objective standard for judging behaviour, then everything is just a shade of grey and varies from person to person. Therefore evil does not exist.

Zeta
14th February 03, 12:20 AM
oops

Energiser
14th February 03, 12:23 AM
uh.. wrong thread? :p

Uuudar
14th February 03, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by Energiser
If there is no god, evil does not exist.

If there is no objective standard for judging behaviour, then everything is just a shade of grey and varies from person to person. Therefore evil does not exist.

This argument is just refuting the existence of God. Because there is evil, then there cannot be a God. The subjective values are precisely what must be happening. Take for example other cultures. We find their customs wrong, but they find them to be right. Thus, values are subjective without a God. There is still suffering in the world even without a God. When you break your arm, that's suffering.

By the way, I don't know if you realize this or not, but to clarify, I'm using evil in the sense of bad but also in the sense of suffering.

Loliena
14th February 03, 12:31 AM
There is evil so there is Satan
There is good so there is God
You cant have one without the other

Uuudar
14th February 03, 12:33 AM
Originally posted by Loliena
There is evil so there is Satan
There is good so there is God
You cant have one without the other

Under the "standard" definition of God, he is omnipotent and omnicient. Thus, even if there is a "satan," God should be able to take the evil out of the world because he is all powerful, even over the evil of satan.

Energiser
14th February 03, 12:48 AM
Unless you profess to understand an infinite being, then it is perfectly acceptable to say
"God is all-powerful, there is suffering in the world, therefore, God must have a reason for allowing the suffering to continue"

Again however, this is nothing to do with wether god exists or not, and everything to do with what kind of guy he is (which, bye the bye, assumes he exists, unless you're trying to personify nothing, which is a pretty poor form of arguement, imo)

Xioxou
14th February 03, 12:53 AM
God exists.

He told me so.

Xioxou
14th February 03, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by Zeta
Pretty hypocritical... blah blah blah... anymore.

Tee hee! You might try to keep one browser open at a time, silly things like this will happen.

Uuudar
14th February 03, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by Energiser
Unless you profess to understand an infinite being, then it is perfectly acceptable to say
"God is all-powerful, there is suffering in the world, therefore, God must have a reason for allowing the suffering to continue"


With the "standard" definition, he's omnibenevolent (all good). Thus, no suffering should result if he's all good.

Ah, and here is another thing to ponder:

The Euthyphro Problem:

Are things good because they are looked upon favorably by God? Or does God only look favorably upon those things that are good?

Boldara_cool
14th February 03, 01:04 AM
I think there is/was a god. I think he created us in some shape or form. Whether it be that he created the matter which lead to the big bang (but then how did he come to life?) or it was science and then he created us. If it was the latter, it would still make sense in my opinion. I find it somewhat odd that as a organism we're so dominant that we can alter almost every aspect in life one way or another, whether it be a little or a lot.

Then there's a religious standpoint on god. If he's such a good being why do we have such tragedies that we do? Like loli said, blame the devil. Maybe the devil was gods first attempt at a human gone wrong? Maybe the devil was just an oppressed member of the first human society so he blamed god? Who knows.

In response to kat's posts, just because a mainstream view of him may be that he's forgiving...doesn't mean that's what he may be. It is in fact possible to generate your own opinion on him. I mean, assuming he's been around for so long his image had to have gotten twisted around for the worse or for the better.

I don't know many facts about religion itself so this could probably be flawed in many ways from a religious standpoint. Probably even if you take a scientific standpoint on the world the first paragraph could be.

Loliena
14th February 03, 01:08 AM
Think of this, Satan is evil, bad things happen, because he makes them happen, God wont destroy Satan so there will be evil, GOD is not all to blame, Satan is. Satan is the one wanting us to suffer, not God

Boldara_cool
14th February 03, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by Loliena
Think of this, Satan is evil, bad things happen, because he makes them happen, God wont destroy Satan so there will be evil, GOD is not all to blame, Satan is. Satan is the one wanting us to suffer, not God

Playing devil's advocate since I know it will be asked anyhow.

Why does god want evil?

Loliena
14th February 03, 01:09 AM
No matter how much we try to make sense of it we cant. We only use 6 to 9 percent of our brain power. God doesnt want us to know all the answers, or wed be as powerful as him

Loliena
14th February 03, 01:12 AM
God doesnt want evil, Satan does, he wants to overthrow Gods kingdom, so he tries to tempt us all to do evil deeds as well, so in the end wed be joining him, so he can make promises we will be better off without God /sigh this is a very complex issue, we do not know all the answers so it is to hard to explain.

Boldara_cool
14th February 03, 01:17 AM
Originally posted by Loliena
God wont destroy Satan so there will be evil,

You contradict yourself once in a while?

Energiser
14th February 03, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by Uuudar
With the "standard" definition, he's omnibenevolent (all good). Thus, no suffering should result if he's all good.


This is not true.

This is what is called an assumption.

A being can still be all good, and all powerful, and allow suffering and / or bad things to happen to things / people / whatever that it loves / cares about / whatever.
Maybe this benevolent being beleives that it is in the best interests of humankind to experience suffering, for whatever reason.
Maybe it is the only way in which this being can bring about whatever set of circumstances he is eventually attempting to bring about for the greater good of all involved.

** this applies to your question also Boldara.

Loliena
14th February 03, 01:26 AM
You contradict yourself once in a while?


How did I do that?

Boldara_cool
14th February 03, 01:28 AM
You said, "God won't destroy satan so there will be evil,"

Then you said, "God doesn't want evil."

Am I the only one that finds those contradictory? Maybe it's the way I'm reading it?

Energiser
14th February 03, 01:32 AM
just read my post just up there ^^^.

Boldara_cool
14th February 03, 01:37 AM
The only reason I asked the question was to help the flow of the post and because I know somebody on a non-believers side would ask it. If what you said is what Loli was trying to say, then thanks :p. Otherwise, I was just trying to be a winner in a winners game :(. I'm the loser though. :(

(Those two last sentences don't make much sense do they :p)

Uuudar
14th February 03, 01:42 AM
This assumption is what a large percentage of the earth's population believes in. How's that for an assumption?

Loliena
14th February 03, 01:52 AM
LOL Boldara, I wasnt contradicting myself, I was just trying to explain something that is indeed hard to explain. God will not rid of Satan until the day of his wrath, therefore since there still is a Satan there is evil. The end of the world, God will chose those who were good and feared him, and thats the day of his wrath, when he will get rid of all evil, including Satan. Until that day we have them both. We are starting to create the end of this world, and at the end a new one will be formed.

Yiktin Voxbane
14th February 03, 02:08 AM
For GODS Sake, I'm An Atheist !

No....Wait....

I AM GOD !

So I guess I Don't exist, in my Own Mind

*Disappears*

....................

Loliena
14th February 03, 02:21 AM
LOL :)
HEY they made mental institutions for people like you!

Yiktin Voxbane
14th February 03, 02:31 AM
@ least some Levity has been introduced :p

Wiyam
14th February 03, 02:35 AM
There's a "science fiction" book titled "Calculating God." Good read to say the least.

Without good there would be no evil; without evil there would be no good.

There is a higher being than ourselves, there is no doubt about it.

Chantress
14th February 03, 02:41 AM
Originally posted by Uuudar
With the "standard" definition, he's omnibenevolent (all good). Thus, no suffering should result if he's all good.

Ah, and here is another thing to ponder:

The Euthyphro Problem:

Are things good because they are looked upon favorably by God? Or does God only look favorably upon those things that are good?

Where does the Bible say that God is omnibenevolent? It says he is the great I AM. In the beginning he was, meanming he always existed. It also can mean he is all powerful.

On another note. His benevolence is so great he will allow u to screw up spit in his face curse his name kill his only child and then when u realize what u did wrong he will still forgive you for it. I dont know about u, but to me thats pretty benevolent.

Maldisdain Atheist
14th February 03, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by Uuudar
Agnostic. There is no clear decisive evidence in either direction. However, I'm leaning toward no God or we are epistemelogically unable to understand the nature of God.

Here's an arguement to ponder over by a philosopher named Baier:

Premise 1: God is omnicient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent.

(this is the "normal," Christian view of God)

Premise 2: If God existed, there would be no evil (suffering).

Premise 3: There is evil (suffering).

Conclusion: There is no God.

Oh yeah? Well... well... as John Locke observered:

God is perfect
Existence is a perfection
therefore God exists.

(Of course, existence isn't a predicate property, so the entire argument kinda crumbles... but hey, Descartes missed that point, too... so we'll cut Locke a break.)


In all seriousness:
As Ener noted, premise 2 is rendered false by the sum of premises 1 and 3, just as premise 1 is rendered false by the sum of premises 2 and 3.

Maldisdain Atheist
14th February 03, 03:00 AM
Originally posted by Zeta
If everything was good, and there was no evil. How would you know it was good? You can't have good without evil. Its there for a reason.

I don't think that follows.

Certainly for there to be good the possibility of evil must exist, but the evil need never be realized.


Also, suffering and evil are not really the same thing, though they may sometimes be coextensive. Suffering refers to a state, evil to a disposition. To conflate the two is to commit a category mistake.

joen00b
14th February 03, 04:32 AM
Christianity is flawed, get over it.

Rakhan
14th February 03, 05:09 AM
Yeah, /agree with that guy earlier on. We need a fucking pantheon!

joen00b
14th February 03, 05:18 AM
Originally posted by Loliena
No matter how much we try to make sense of it we cant. We only use 6 to 9 percent of our brain power. God doesnt want us to know all the answers, or wed be as powerful as him

OMG!!! Dare I say you use less than 3% of your total grey matter. There is an all powerful being somewhere and he decides to give us the infinite potential of himself, but pulls back at the last second and instead of starting over, it puts limits on our brains like Carbuerator Plates in a NASCAR engine?

Honestly, how do you know this is true? Did you talk to God? Man, keeping sniffing the ether! I'm not gonna get into your other posts right now, but you are quite delusional to say you are God fearing and have a strong belief in God then turn around and try to even fathom his existance or motives. You really need to rethink your whole thought process before coming back. You are foolish, you are wrong, and you make Baby Jesus cry with blatant stupidity.

Donnely McLeod
14th February 03, 06:27 AM
I've always laughed to myself when people try and wind around this subject.

Put simply:

This is a stupid thread. You've all gone over this a million times and it leads nowhere.

With that said I believe in God. You all have it wrong. Your're arguing semantics and philosophy. You can't even pretend to grasp what could possibly be going on for the simple fact that none of you have probably investigated it. Scientist all believe in evolution because its a "Gold Card" of their community that gets them into the Vip room at the gold club. The ordinary layman believes is for convienience. I mean, look at the answers; people blame God for religion. I don't. I blame Catholicism, Islam and all that other crap that twist things around (i.e. the Crusades).

Its like what John Lennon said:

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

You know where that song comes from? It wasn't made for yoko, that's for sure. Because I've read these words several times in Matthew-Revelation. The world wasn't meant for violence. Why do you think Satan is on Earth? Because he was confined here. He was confined here because he rebeled in heaven (and I don't mean a puffy place with clouds and wimpy guys in robes with wings like most religions paint angels to be; the Bible paints them as militaristic messengers with flaming red eyes and chrysolite skin). Why do people surround it with mysticism? Because you don't understand it? Because we haven't become advanced enough to peer into another realm?

In every instance of an angel appearing (except one) everyone was filled with dread (and I mean that, fall to your knees, hair standing up dread). A human can only experience so much energy at one point before he simply stops (and dies; it happens... its called shock). So you look at scriptures that say God is filled with "Dynamic Energy" and where he says, "No man can look upon my face and yet live," and there went part of the mysticism. "Holy" became a twisted word filled with routine and fable.

Heck, I believe in the Big Bang and it "can't be proven completely," but it seems reasonabe (plus it supports creation). Break down a human's genetic makup and he turns to dust. Who knows how LONG each "day" was. The implication in Genesis is that each day was an ERA, not a literal day. Not to mention it says, "In the beginning," not, "In the beginning of all things." In OUR beginning. God apparrently feels we don't YET need to know (since we manage to blow each other up when we make discovery at the moment) how he created all things. What did he use? Did the bible say? No. It just said his "Holy spirit (refer to where Holy is now a twisted word)." It could be as simple as this: Jim used the remote to turn on the TV. Its just something he knows how to use, but his 2 month old child doesn't. Since man IS a child who knows absolutely NOTHING about the ENTIRE universe I'd say its arrogant to dismiss God.

Whine, whine, whine. "Why do bad things happen to good people?" No shit sherlock, we live in a bad world. You want to hear a prophecy that we ALL know came true? Religion is a great harlot that sleeps with the kings of the earth. Wow! What archaic and useless words! Seeing as religion has NEVER been the root cause of ANY conflict between nations (oops, I'm being sarcastic). In other words, since 1914 EVERY conflict has had religous overtones. You can trace just about every conflict back to the middle east since 1914. One palastenian, one bullet, one poor sap in a car. Vietnam: result of the cold war (why do you think the NVA had MIGs and AK-47's for so cheap), result of WII, WII is the last battle of WWI, WWI was started by a palastenian. Since 1914 almost every conflict has had its root with that assassination (don't argue, investigate). Weeks for years *cough-cough*. Once again, I'm not going to explain this. If you were serious at all you'd LOOK IT UP yourself.

Anyway, all the wimpy whiners complain about this old argument. Blah, blah, blah. Whoopdy doo, you've had some hardships. Proof of God is that there would be no hardhips? That's true: "The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." Once again, accurrate and to the point; its antiquity is irrelevant. Read Job. Until then, FO about it because you wouldn't be worth the time or effort. but in simple terms the entire plot to the Bible boils down to this: The Vindication of God's soverignty. Does he have the right to rule mankind or does Satan? The trial ended, Satan was expelled to Earth, Earth is in chaos. But... and I know all you people who have never read this would not agree since you're a bunch of illiterate twits... God promised to end it. You want to know more? You want to know why I arrive at that conclusion? Then stop being lazy and feeling sorry for yourself and READ it.

I hate religous nuts like Jerry Falwel. They make everything sound like its just some stupid principle by an omnipitent being with an attention disorder. Well, THERE IS NO HELL. God never said it, never made mention of it. In Jeremiah he says the thought of tormenting people had, "Never entered into his mind." In fact, he said, "Death is a release from sin." I don't get it. People are perfectly willing to accept that their own military has codes of conduct and accept that drill sergeants have to sometimes 'drill' their students... and drill sergeants didn't have anything to do with this person's upbringing. So why wouldn't the Creator have any right to guide us? Not just that, he gave us FREE CHOICE in the matter (although religion has twisted that and tried to force it on others). Double standards are hypocritical; their logic stands on its head.

To me there is a mystery. Itsnot about what God wants though or Good vs. Evil. The mystery to me is the science of the matter. I think if man was perfect and non-violent then he could surpass where he is right now. He could reach beyond Earth and eventually, after seeing the universe for what ti is, come to some understanding of creative power. But man doesn't even know a drop in the bucket, so how can he say?

Ouden
14th February 03, 06:34 AM
I believe, although for about the last year or so I've been doing a lot of thinking on the matter.

Energiser
14th February 03, 07:35 AM
too drunk to consider any arguements properly, more than 3 words confuse me atm, will reply later in the weekend, or maybe next week.

Kiko
14th February 03, 08:20 AM
I have to get my kids out the door in about 25 minutes. They go to the same Catholic school I went to. I skimmed this thread.

No one will ever have an answer that satisfies all of us. You trust science, then believe what you can see, hear, examine and cut with a knife to watch it bleed. You have faith in God, trees, rocks or one another cling to that as well.

Amazingly, behind the entertainment, I think Kevin Smith nailed lots of things about Catholicism in "Dogma". Oddly, I was just watching "Nuns on the Run." Some of the ways both flicks (and I'm sure others) sum up matters of the catechism are indeed amusing.

If you want to ridicule ANY religion, go for it. If you wanna challenge MY faith or my right to believe, I'll stand up to you. I can't prove things to you, nor convince you, nor do I believe that is my place or even part of my faith. Free will is a wonderful thing, isn't it?

Somewhere along the lines I must have lucked out, or dodged all the fire/brimstone and guilt. I came out of 12 years of private school, 4 years of Jesuit run college and my parents' raising me, believing that God is alot less punative than others seem to think.

Is religion flawed? Sure it is. Why? Because human beings are flawed. There goes that free will thing again.

Is there evil? yep. Look around at one another. We all can try to do the best we can, or we can give in and give up. Choices all around. That's what life really is - potential.

Zeta
14th February 03, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by Energiser
uh.. wrong thread? :p

yep

Zeta
14th February 03, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by Maldisdain Atheist
I don't think that follows.

Certainly for there to be good the possibility of evil must exist, but the evil need never be realized.



All you did is restate what I said. I never said anything about acknowledging it. Just that it has to be there.



Originally posted by joen00b
Christianity is flawed, get over it.

Christinity is a human belief. Humans are flawed. So anything we create is as well flawed. Joe is right.


As for the argument of why does God allow misfortune and disease to exist. There are a couple of arguements I can pose.

First is still on the free will topic. God created the earth and everything that was on it and it was good. (perfect, no disease, no suffering etc etc) Thats it. He is done. He now steps away, to allow what he has created ( and gave free will to ) the chance to live its life on their own terms. Over time, these bad things start to happen because of our decisions. He does't intervene because of the gift. ( there is a hole in this arguement, but you have to know a small portion of the bible to know what it is) The second he steps back, the creation is no longer perfect and things like disease and what not can come into the world.

Sencond argument is a bit more of a twist. So just to throw a loop into the mix, here is another concept for you to ponder. There is NO evil. There is only good (light). What you percieve as evil is merely the abscense of light. Satan was created when God shunned him and removed him completely from the light, thereby making what you percieve as the ultimate evil (complete darkness). Its a lot like light switch. Your in a dark room. Dark doesn't really exist, it is just the abscence of the light. Turn on the light and it is gone.

So following this, God is the light, where his light shines all is good. But shadows do happen. hence disease and misfortune.

Kitska
14th February 03, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by Loliena:

Actually Valde, even Satan believes in God.

I am sure he told you so himself?


Originally posted by Loliena:

This has alot to do with the way we were raised, I was rasied as a Catholic



Originally posted by Loliena in other threads:

plz send a tell when you go to Alabama, and Ill meet you there, say anything about my son or me being a mother again, and youll find a baseball bat up your ass.

Who wants to pull the bat out of Sithrays ass? I would but Im afraid his stupidity is contagious.


I can tell that catholic education did a lot of good for you.

Many of the ideas presented are just that, someone's idea. None know for sure, you just believe in something you want to be true.

Straylight
14th February 03, 11:31 AM
'God' is a crutch that the weak-minded use to blame every shitty thing that happens in their pathetic little lives on.

When something bad happens, it's because it must be God's will....when something good happens, God meant it to be...

It's silliness. People need to take responsibility for their own actions, lot in life, and path their life is taking.

Deal with reality, kids. It's where the -real- shit happens.

Zeta
14th February 03, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by Straylight
'God' is a crutch that the weak-minded use to blame every shitty thing that happens in their pathetic little lives on.

When something bad happens, it's because it must be God's will....when something good happens, God meant it to be...



God is only a crutch when he is used in this fashion. Not all people who believe in god do this stray.

Sveva
14th February 03, 12:33 PM
Few things...

1) The song Imagine by John Lennon is an awesome beautiful song, The Beatles still own.

2) Kevin Smith is brilliant, at least imo.

"I'm stuck in this pit, working on my day off, working for less then slave wages, I deal with ever backwards ass fuck on the planet, the god damn steel shutters are closed, I smell like shoe polish, my ex girlfriend is catatonic after fucking a dead guy and my present girlfriend has sucked 36 dicks!"

"37"

anyway...why don't we all just believe what we want, go worship some trees, go to Catholic mass, sing and dance in the looney christian churches whatever. It doesn't matter if you believe or if you don't believe, do what makes you happy.

What I wish would stop about this religios stuff is anyone who thinks they can try to push thier religion on me. The Christians think they have to "convert" anyone they can because if they don't try to spread the word of god they will be damned to hell. pfft. leave me off your damn list of people to convert. I was baptised catholic, one day my mom said HEY! Lets be holy rollin' christians! I really had no choice in the matter so I had to go along with it, now I am 27 and I am neither one of those religions. But not because I was pushed into anything, I grew up I made my own decisions for myself. I found my nitch, and someday so will my kid.

I don't believe one religion is better then the next. I hate the arguing over it, I hate people telling me I am going to hell. I guess if I am wrong about it all, I go to hell. My choice, my life.

People should just shut up and let others do as they wish, as long as you are not harming anyone or anything in the process good for you. Do as you wish, try to be a decent human while you are alive on this planet, its a basic common sense. Life is too short to argue over religion. Just be happy, who cares what others think, believe, or want you to believe.

Which reminds me I forgot to sing praise to my left shoe this morning. If you'll excuse me I have some chanting to do.




(jk its the right shoe I praise to)

Maldisdain Atheist
14th February 03, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Zeta
All you did is restate what I said. I never said anything about acknowledging it. Just that it has to be there.

Erm... actually, I meant realized in its less common sense: made real. That is, I was saying that there need not actually be evil.

It's not that evil makes good possible, or good makes evil possible; it is the possibility of choice that makes moral words like "good" and "evil" appropriate.

Xioxou
14th February 03, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by Donnely McLeod
Its like what John Lennon said:

Lyrics to Imagine

"Yes—according to John, we should imagine a world with 'no possessions', but then again, we were just 'fucking peasants' to him. Luckily, John created a loop-hole by stating that we should only 'imagine' the socialist utopia he sang of."

He also wrote "How Do You Sleep?” directly attacking his former band mate. Somehow his credibility doesn't lend much support to his sloganeering.

The real questions are:

1. Assuming there is a God, does he/she/it exist independent of people's belief in him.

2. Assuming an affirmative answer to 1, why even bother arguing his/her/its existence? It’s certainly not something that can be proven or disproved

imported_JC
14th February 03, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Sveva

"I'm stuck in this pit, working on my day off, working for less then slave wages, I deal with ever backwards ass fuck on the planet, the god damn steel shutters are closed, I smell like shoe polish, my ex girlfriend is catatonic after fucking a dead guy and my present girlfriend has sucked 36 dicks!"

"37"


Best lines ever, Clerks is eternally stuck in my PS2, does it really play games?

Well I would have commented earlier but I was going to skip the whole topic until I read the usual idiocy sprouted here.

If you want to think that everything here was just some random chance. That the earth is the EXACT distance from the sun we need to survive, any closer we'd burn, any farther we wouldn't get enough sun. That everything works in such harmony (Nature, not items created by man). Then please by all means believe so. Seriously take a stop and a look around though.

I've studied multiple religions, and although Christianity has one of the best messages, it like other religions has many flaws. The particular ones are the people who flaw it to use by thier means. (You'll burn in hell etc.) One of the best books I've ever read concerning religion is Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. Although religous tones of his own backround infterfere in some places he nails many things in the open right on.

It's possible the Bible, the Koran, any other religous book you talk about is flawed. Why? Because it was written by us. Argue all you want about divine inspiration but it comes down to your FAITH that the person said it the way a God, or THE God wanted. You don't know, you weren't there so all you can do is speculate, and believe ; or not believe.

I personally believe there is a God ; and it's quite possible that The God is the same single God in many books of religion ; or that he's simply A God of many as per Krishna because of his power from somewhere else. I would say the values given in the Bible are good things to live by but take them for what they are ; not for what some redneck hillbilly tells you to burn in hell because you had a drink of a beer. Get real.

I do believe that Jesus Christ did walk the earth and that he in fact was either the Son Of God ; or a God himself if the other holds true. There are many historic non religous accounts of his accts and what he did ; as there are of other religous figures in other religions.

Oh yeah and happy <3ey day I'm off to see Daredevil.

Aml

joen00b
14th February 03, 02:46 PM
I love how people attach Good and Evil to God when his people even describe him as: Vengeful. How can good be vengeful and Good? Does he get into a pillow fight with you when he gets pissed off at ya?

God's followers and prophets asked god: What are you? He answered: I am. I guess that encompasses Good and Evil and everything in between. What's amazing is most of God's voices on this thread are trying to make excuses for God, but God is infallible, thus God is Good and God is Evil, no more, less, He is all, He is nothing, everything you are is Him.

Once again, why are folks making excuses for Him or trying to pigeonhole Him into their Denomination so as to fit their personal beliefs better? Unless I missed something in my Seminary studies, the Catholic God is the Mormon God is the Lutheran God is the Protestant God..... The God of Christianity is the same God, the denominations just disagree on how they interrupt what He says. Again, humans try to decipher the word of God to justify their crimes against God.

Hell, I'm guilty of breaking 9 of the 10 commandments and had one person not waken up from a coma, I woulda gotten a perfect score, and that's regardless of which Christian God you follow.

Xioxou
14th February 03, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Amlaruil
I've studied multiple religions

It's possible the Bible, the Koran, any other religous book you talk about is flawed. Why? Because it was written by us.

Keep studying.

Ouden
14th February 03, 03:01 PM
I'm in love with Xioxou.

Xioxou
14th February 03, 03:05 PM
Sorry, The Gay is strong with you, young Moustachioed Person.

Someday, though, you may bring balance to The Gay.

Loliena
14th February 03, 03:44 PM
No Joe I dont talk to God, I only know what I have been taught, thats why I believe in it. God is not the one who says we do not use all of our potential brain power or whatever, sciencetists did, shit I learned that in middle school. The smartest man in the world doesnt even use 20 percent, so here you are the idiot.

Nikalos_2
14th February 03, 03:48 PM
Loliena, Do you think before you type?

Loliena
14th February 03, 03:52 PM
lol

joen00b
14th February 03, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by Loliena
No Joe I dont talk to God, I only know what I have been taught, thats why I believe in it. God is not the one who says we do not use all of our potential brain power or whatever, sciencetists did, shit I learned that in middle school. The smartest man in the world doesnt even use 20 percent, so here you are the idiot.

I'm an idiot? You're the presumptuous cock jockey claiming to know about God cause a scientist told you so.

You make Nikalos look smart, mkay?

Kiko
14th February 03, 04:20 PM
I'm trying to think of what God is like. Something that if you want it.. you can have it.. in any way you wish. Oddly, you'll probably get what you deserve, though you may not get what you need. Kinda like what the Stones described. If you DON'T want God/god.. guess what.. just like a buffet table. You don't have to take it. Damn, there's that free will thing again!

And just for the record... I think all forms of god are one, with many different names, genders, etc. Probably pretty amused at the many ways we shape him/her/it. Actually, the proper term would be "IS".

Why am I wasting my keystrokes? Dunno. I'm in that sorta mood..

imported_JC
14th February 03, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Xioxou
Keep studying.

I do every day. I'm sure I know more about most major religions then you know about a single one.

Aml

Kiko
14th February 03, 05:00 PM
And clearly much about humility as well.

Uuudar
14th February 03, 05:42 PM
What I really enjoy is the double standard that exists in society. You see a man walking down the street, talking to an invisible friend or something, you think, "Damn, that guy's nuts." But suddenly, when someone is "praying" to something they cannot prove exists, we have to leave them alone and say, "wow, they're just really religious." There's something sacred about when talking to something that doesn't exist when it's God. We just need to commit everyone =\.

joen00b
14th February 03, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Uuudar
What I really enjoy is the double standard that exists in society. You see a man walking down the street, talking to an invisible friend or something, you think, "Damn, that guy's nuts." But suddenly, when someone is "praying" to something they cannot prove exists, we have to leave them alone and say, "wow, they're just really religious." There's something sacred about when talking to something that doesn't exist when it's God. We just need to commit everyone =\.

Actually, both those types give me the heebie jeebies.

Kat
14th February 03, 05:45 PM
On a lighter note ...

Ouden
14th February 03, 05:45 PM
I eat babies. The bible doesn't say I can't do that.

Zeta
14th February 03, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Maldisdain Atheist
Erm... actually, I meant realized in its less common sense: made real. That is, I was saying that there need not actually be evil.

It's not that evil makes good possible, or good makes evil possible; it is the possibility of choice that makes moral words like "good" and "evil" appropriate.

Still doesn't talk to my original point tho. My first comment was, if everything was good. Then how do you have the concept of good or bad? It would just be the way that things are. You would have no basis of comparison to be able to claim something is good, if bad didn't exist.

So by the reasoning, if you have a concept of good, then evil has to exist. You can't have one without the other. You wouldn't know it was light outside if it never got dark.

joen00b
14th February 03, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by Zeta
Still doesn't talk to my original point tho. My first comment was, if everything was good. Then how do you have the concept of good or bad? It would just be the way that things are. You would have no basis of comparison to be able to claim something is good, if bad didn't exist.

So by the reasoning, if you have a concept of good, then evil has to exist. You can't have one without the other. You wouldn't know it was light outside if it never got dark.

Why can't there be only good? What rules of the universe are you quoting that make dichotomy of good AND evil a truth? I say the whole fucking world is evil, and we are in fact living in hell at this point, thus eveything is evil with no good.

I want to know what basis ANYWHERE says that there must be good and evil. Emotions are not balanced atoms, there doesn't have to be matched protons and electrons.

Diggler McFeely
14th February 03, 06:38 PM
What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Ouden
14th February 03, 06:40 PM
Ouden's penis

Zeta
14th February 03, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by joen00b
Why can't their be only good? What rules of the universe are you quoting that make dichotomy of good AND evil a truth? I say the whole fucking world is evil, and we are in fact living in hell at this point, thus eveything is evil with no good.

I want to know what basis ANYWHERE says that there must be good and evil. Emotions are not balanced atoms, there doesn't have to be matched protons and electrons.

I'm saying if EVERYTHING was good. How would you know? You wouldn't have any basis of comparison. Without evil, you wouldn't even know what good was.

joen00b
14th February 03, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by Diggler McFeely
What came first, the chicken or the egg?

My OJ, then pancakes, then the chicken and eggs on one plate.

joen00b
14th February 03, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by Zeta
I'm saying if EVERYTHING was good. How would you know? You wouldn't have any basis of comparison. Without evil, you wouldn't even know what good was.

Which is exactly my point: Personal Perception.

I would say having a beautiful blonde woman riding my crotch like a rodeo bull is good.

Well, Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so she may not be attractive to you.

I'm colorblind, so she may actually be strawberry blonde, but I don't know this.

She may have been a guy that that a sex change operation, so it's actually a man in the form of a woman.

It's all perception, to imply otherwise is being very linear of thought. There can be one without the other, try and prove otherwise. Since it's the perception of one or the other, I may never get your meaning.

Diggler McFeely
14th February 03, 06:48 PM
I, along with the rest of my department at work, think Bill Gates is evil.

However, the Windows department? They all think the Sun shines from his ass.

Kiko
14th February 03, 06:55 PM
*sigh*

Good and evil now, huh? Sure, they can be relative to point of view in many situations.

We MIGHT agree that being generous is good, while torturing living creatures is bad.

I think you'll get further with defining good and evil (which I think must both exist) if you go away from the real world, and maybe um. go toward something more similar to AD&D alignments minus the gods.

I prefer Chaotic.. mostly because it has that Free Will element.

downinit
14th February 03, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by Donnely McLeod
Well, THERE IS NO HELL.

You've never provided enough background information about that view. If there's no Hell then where do all of the non-believers go?

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters, and all liars - their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Revelation 21:8

eFFIX
14th February 03, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by Amlaruil
If you want to think that everything here was just some random chance. That the earth is the EXACT distance from the sun we need to survive, any closer we'd burn, any farther we wouldn't get enough sun. That everything works in such harmony (Nature, not items created by man). Then please by all means believe so. Seriously take a stop and a look around though.


Well considering that there is an infinite number of potential stars, and an infinite number of planets... Actually there is probably a finite number of them out there, but considering it would be impossible to count them all, infinite is a good number...

There is a pretty good chance that one of those stars, is gonna have a planet that is the prefect distance away from it. And on that specific planet, things just happened to happen in a specific way, that life was able to exist...

There is potentially millions of planets out there, that are the right distance away from a star, that they could support life. But they might not have life on them. In fact they could have the exact same atomical makeup that Earth does in every way. But still not have life on them. Who knows, it could be very possible the the earth is the only planet in the entire universe that supports life.

The fact is, the only argument that can hold any sort of water, is the "chance" argument. Because given an infinite number of potential circumstances, anything is possible. Just not probable.

--------------

Now I'm gonna spin this chance argument, and stick in the whole "good vs. evil" thing...

---------------

Just consider yourself lucky to be alive. And aware of your existance. Actually, you should be even MORE thankful, that your living the life your living and are who you are. Considering you had a 1 in 6.5 billion chance of being who you are, you got pretty lucky.

And considering the sise of the potential universe, ever fucking thing on this planet, from bacteria, to human, should be giving praise every god damned day to the fact that they even exist. Since the chance that you lucked out and even ended up on this planet is so small, that it impossible to even calculate.

Even if this world was filled with nothing but suffering, you should STILL be thankful for the fact that your even alive. Since even a life that is a living hell, would still be better than no life at all.

So even in a world where you have good and evil, it's still all good. You should be thankful you even have this world, as flawed and fucked up as it is.

downinit
14th February 03, 09:49 PM
For the love of God(That phrase is ironic for this thread, get it? Heh, I own), stop pointlessly beating around this endless topic. I'm tired of watching it develop into the same discussion about the universe being infinite and thus having infinite possibilities. We could develop new forms of travel and teleport all over the fucking universe and figure out nothing, let alone argue like a bunch of stuborn 6 year olds on a message board, yelling "OH YA WELL MY DAD COULD BEAT UP YOUR DAD AND HULK HOGAN AT THE SAME TIME!!".

Who really gives a fuck about the outcome of a topic with no outcome anyways? You'll just tire yourselves out until you realize how demeaning it is to try and answer the question of divinity. I thought the people of these boards had evolved beyond the level of fighting about the existence of God after that damn "Boredom, Jebus, and CTT" thread extended into about 8 million posts of the same bullshit and no one could even read the entire thing without slipping into some sort of violent seizure. Perhaps the majority of us have evolved beyond that level and it's only pathetic wastes of respiration, such as Kat, that can't get their heads around these issues.

Ouden
14th February 03, 10:24 PM
There better be a hell or something tormenting out there for some of the fucks I know.

Xioxou
14th February 03, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by Amlaruil
I do every day. I'm sure I know more about most major religions then you know about a single one.

Then you should know only one of the religions you mentioned beleives it's holy text was writen by man. (Through divine inspiration or otherwise).

Sense you only mentioned two, and I'll give you a hint: I'm a muslim, care to go ahead and retract/correct your previous statement? (Or should I say "statements"?)

Ouden
14th February 03, 11:38 PM
Now now Xioxou, she obviously knows more than you. She's studied 8301031003181380 religions every waking moment of her life.

Boldara_cool
15th February 03, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by Xioxou
Then you should know only one of the religions you mentioned beleives it's holy text was writen by man. (Through divine inspiration or otherwise).

Sense you only mentioned two, and I'll give you a hint: I'm a muslim, care to go ahead and retract/correct your previous statement? (Or should I say "statements"?)

I'd hope she knows that that the muslim holy book was written by man. :p

Even I know that, I learned that in my world history class like last week (I'm only in 9th grade though).

Xioxou
15th February 03, 12:32 AM
Yeah yeah, they where all written down by man at some point. However, while Christians know the New Testament is mostly correspondence, Muslims believe the Koran is the direct word of God, transmitted through Gabriel.

Furthermore, there are no legitimate translations of the Koran. Its current state (down to the punctuation) is unchanged from the original recitation by Mohammed.

But the point I was making to begin with was at the same time Aml was professing an abundance of knowledge on all things religious, she clearly contradicted herself to anyone with even the most basic understanding of the three major Judeo-Christian religions.

And Boldara, where you by chance in the middle of writing out your "OMG, I think you're cute! Check here if you want to go steady O Check here if you don't like me O" letters when your teacher was talking about this?

joen00b
15th February 03, 12:39 AM
Boldara, for future reference:

Don't argue the Muslim religion with Xioxou. She'll hurt ya bad!

Xioxou
15th February 03, 12:42 AM
I agree with Ouden's Moustache, joe's Mallet, and a whole mess of arch angels who'll totally uppercut some kid for dropping a spoon and not even care.

joen00b
15th February 03, 01:00 AM
Xioxou:

Zaxum
15th February 03, 01:21 AM
haha joe, that picture owns.

Boldara_cool
15th February 03, 02:01 AM
Originally posted by Xioxou
And Boldara, where you by chance in the middle of writing out your "OMG, I think you're cute! Check here if you want to go steady O Check here if you don't like me O" letters when your teacher was talking about this?

Since I don't feel like arguing with you about my maturity and staying on track...*shrug* Maybe I just didn't understand the content. We never had a test about it so I wouldn't know. I'll have to ask him.

No idea why you felt the need to insult me in such a way just because I don't recall ever saying anything even near that about you? Wtf is wrong with you?

EDIT: I read the part directed at me because I saw it first when scrolling upwards. I don't know what the rest of the post said. so oh well.

Ouden
15th February 03, 02:02 AM
Xioxou still has bitter feelings over the crusades.

Zaxum
15th February 03, 05:27 AM
Originally posted by joen00b
Which is exactly my point: Personal Perception.

snip

It's all perception, to imply otherwise is being very linear of thought. There can be one without the other, try and prove otherwise. Since it's the perception of one or the other, I may never get your meaning.

Yep, good and evil are always in the eye of the beholder. Then there's other factors such as morals and humanity... other things which are affected by perception. I think Zeta was just trying to illustrate that while people's perceptions may differ, there must always be an opposite. So while you're digging the transsexual escapade of lust, you wouldn't enjoy the 5lb salami shoved up ya're sacred excrement factory. Hypothetically speaking of course. ;)

But for a good there must always be an evil. Counterweights on the scales of moral dignities and random hooblah.

Yiktin Voxbane
15th February 03, 07:53 AM
Originally posted by Fyrestarter


"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters, and all liars - their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Revelation 21:8 [/B]

Front door to SolB?
Skyfire....?

fer da Lub'O God Man, Gimme a /Loc

Maldisdain Atheist
15th February 03, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by Zeta
I'm saying if EVERYTHING was good. How would you know? You wouldn't have any basis of comparison. Without evil, you wouldn't even know what good was.

Moral "Good" is based on intentional conformity to moral laws, while moral "Evil" is based on intentional violation of moral laws.

The form of the Moral Law varies a great deal from culture to culture and spiritual tradition to spiritual tradition.

But fundamentally, because moral laws are "ought" statements ("People ought not commit murder" for example), the goodness or evilness of actions can be assesssed (in theory) through knowledge of a battery of circumstantial facts and inward dispositions.

Veldriss
15th February 03, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by Zaxum
So while you're digging the transsexual escapade of lust, you wouldn't enjoy the 5lb salami shoved up ya're sacred excrement factory.

Sargey..

:( :( :( :( :(

Zaxum
15th February 03, 09:26 AM
Sorrah Loz, metephorical statements to issue a point. Extremeties often relay a good mental image!

Veldriss
15th February 03, 09:46 AM
NOT IN THIS INSTANCE. :(

Zaxum
15th February 03, 10:16 AM
<3? :/

Veldriss
15th February 03, 10:18 AM
k. =\

Energiser
15th February 03, 11:03 AM
hmm.. sorta lost track of this thread, but it seems to have derailed from the existance of god to the nature of good and evil and the legitimacy of various major religions, an entirely different kettle of penguins really.

Of course all major (and minor) religions are flawed, humans are flawed, therefore..

just because a religion is flawed however, does not make it flat out wrong.

Oh, and Donnely, there is deffinetly a hell, i dunno what bible you read, but maybe i'll find some refferences for you.

The only real arguement regarding hell (in the christian religion) that i've heard about regards wether hell is eternal or not. I happen to beleive the arguement that it is not, as it makes God make a lot more sense. But that's just bye the bye.

with regard to this :



Originally posted by Fyrestarter:

Who really gives a fuck about the outcome of a topic with no outcome anyways? You'll just tire yourselves out until you realize how demeaning it is to try and answer the question of divinity. I thought the people of these boards had evolved beyond the level of fighting about the existence of God after that damn "Boredom, Jebus, and CTT" thread extended into about 8 million posts of the same bullshit and no one could even read the entire thing without slipping into some sort of violent seizure. Perhaps the majority of us have evolved beyond that level and it's only pathetic wastes of respiration, such as Kat, that can't get their heads around these issues.


It must be wonderful to be so sure about this issue that you don't feel the need to discuss it. I mean, it's only argueable the most important issue a human being can discuss, but shit.

The topic isn't really supposed to have an "outcome" as such, captain angrypants, it is supposed to provide food for thought, though it's obvious your brain has already withered and died from starvation, what a pity.

*I* am interested to read *anyones* comments on the subject if they can keep them civil and intelligent, i don't care what philosphical stand point they come from.

I just wish the people who bring zero intelligence and a poopload of emotional baggage to these kinds of threads would go away someplace quiet and share their angst with a paper bag.

how about, everyone not capable nor interested in discussing the existance of god, opinions about religion, etc without causing it to devolve into a tirade of personal attacks and drivel just ignore the thread, stop posting crap and go find a thread more to their liking?

Energiser
15th February 03, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by Straylight
'God' is a crutch that the weak-minded use to blame every shitty thing that happens in their pathetic little lives on.

When something bad happens, it's because it must be God's will....when something good happens, God meant it to be...

It's silliness. People need to take responsibility for their own actions, lot in life, and path their life is taking.

Deal with reality, kids. It's where the -real- shit happens.

Simply deciding God does not exist is not "dealing" with reality.

It is deciding you have no interest in spending your life discovering for yourself if there may be some truth to the matter, and therefore curtailing your "reality".

Which, in my opinion, is a helluva lot more childish than beleiving in God, for whatever reason.

Go the silly generalisations, they're ALWAYS right.

Kat
15th February 03, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by Fyrestarter:
Perhaps the majority of us have evolved beyond that level and it's only pathetic wastes of respiration, such as Kat, that can't get their heads around these issues.

actually, I always saw myself as more of a 'pond scum' type of person :/

Donnely McLeod
15th February 03, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Fyrestarter
You've never provided enough background information about that view. If there's no Hell then where do all of the non-believers go?

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters, and all liars - their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Revelation 21:8

This is what I mean about people and their beliefs.

Lets say two people are putting a puzzle together. One person is taking pieces from here and there, seeing what fits and looking at the box to see what patterns appear where. The other, to lazy to searchfor the rest of the pieces takes one, holds it up and says, "This is enough for me," places it on the table and leaves.

Read the rest of Revelation you moron. Specifically the part, "This means the second death..."

Its the same kind of retards that use the scripture, "I came, not bring peace, but a sword," and misapply it as violence when Jesus was talking about his followers being persecuted.

Uuudar
15th February 03, 02:59 PM
I love the part in Revelations that is talking about is the downfall of "Babylon," which is really Rome. I love the irony that the offical religion of the Roman empire came to be based on the Bible when one book is about its downfall.

I'm not positive (I'd actually like some clarification on the issue), but does the Jewish religion even believe in a Hell? I thought that they didn't, but I might be wrong.

Xioxou
15th February 03, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by Boldara_cool
Wtf is wrong with you?

Give me a break. You read my post, misconstrued my hint and attempted to take a pot shot while elevating your self to the ranks of armchair illuminatti. I called you on it.

Aml seems to have a mild case of downs, I don't need help pointing it out.

Kiko
15th February 03, 05:10 PM
Damn, I missed alot here. I agree with Ener. If you wanna flamefest, go start one, or hijack one. If you wanna do that here, what's your point? There are a few of us who ARE religious and are also tolerant enough to have a discussion and maybe LEARN something that you can only learn from a follower of another faith instead of a college course or a book.

Despite being a Christian and a Catholic, I respect and sometimes even embrace some of the ideas of other faiths. I most surely admire them when I see someone whose demonstration of other religions shows their devotion and goodwill to others.

About Hell - this isn't dogma, but I do believe it in some form:
"Hell is other people."

Chantress
15th February 03, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by Donnely McLeod
Read the rest of Revelation you moron. Specifically the part, "This means the second death..."

Its the same kind of retards that use the scripture, "I came, not bring peace, but a sword," and misapply it as violence when Jesus was talking about his followers being persecuted.

I take it u dont read the Bible often Donnely.

The following is from the KJV Revelation 20:12-15 "12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Not only does it speceifically reference hell it outlines the punishment of being cast into the lake of fire. Seems pretty clear to me that not only is there a hell, but people will be going there one day. Jesus even makes reference to this place in Matthew 7:13.

On what Jesus said about coming not to bring peace but a sword, U r wrong again here unfortunately. According to the context it has to do with the Christians dedication to Him. A Christian is to put the cause of Christ above all else. Even friends and family. The sword is a figurative refence to teh divisions that may occur in personal relationship as a result of following Christ. Read the verses after Matthew 10:34 since that is where the text u r referencing is taken from. While this may be interpreted as persecution in some regard, in the traditional sense of stoning and other forms of persecution that the early Christians suffered, this is not referencing that. Its main jist is about dedication to Christ.

With regards to the reference to Babylon in the book of Revelation, I think it would be a misinterpritation to say it is referencing the Roman Empire. John, the writer of the book of Revelation used figurative language quite extensively. One example is how do you describe heaven? He did it by saying the streets were of gold. Its imagery to give the idea of how glorious a place he was witnessing. Similar, if he was looking at end times like most of the rest of the book of Revelation, especially this section...he would have lacked the words to describe the kingdom that will rule in those last days, so he most likely referred to it as Babylon, since to a Jews that was known as the greatest and longest reigning empire of their day. Remember, when this was written the Roman empire was still young. It matters little really as even if you believe it was the Roman Empire, it would not effect the means of Salvation as is stated in other books of the Bible.

On a side note, it pains me greatly to have to agree with Fyrestarter, but it appears as though he is right in this instrance.

Anyone who would like to study this more in depth, I would be happy to continue on with a personal Bible study on the matter, but I wouldnt want to clutter up this thread with more jabber that most of the people here dont appreciate anyway :)

Boldara_cool
15th February 03, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by Xioxou
Give me a break. You read my post, misconstrued my hint and attempted to take a pot shot while elevating your self to the ranks of armchair illuminatti. I called you on it.

Aml seems to have a mild case of downs, I don't need help pointing it out.

k youre right. I read your post, misconstrued your hint attempted to take a potshot while elevating myself to the ranks of armchair illuminatti. You called me on it.

Xioxou
15th February 03, 11:41 PM
Holy crap, people on CTC admitting mistake? I must be at the wrong forum.

In any event, most every post here is in fact a pot shot. Nothing personal, toughens the skin.

Yiktin Voxbane
15th February 03, 11:49 PM
Coulda swore I saw Bol Say in chat room was in 9th grade, though the term armchair illuminati hardly seems to fit .........

Xioxou
16th February 03, 12:10 AM
Eh, I dunno. Armchair athlete = person who watches a game and convinces themself they could do it (although they're completely inept)

Armchair illuminati = person who claims to be unusually enlightened and interject their oppinions in other's conversations (although they're completely inept). ?

Boldara_cool
16th February 03, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by Xioxou
Holy crap, people on CTC admitting mistake? I must be at the wrong forum.

In any event, most every post here is in fact a pot shot. Nothing personal, toughens the skin. I'm not like 'the rest of em' :p If i'm wrong, why waste my energy? right?

Kiko
16th February 03, 06:51 AM
Not to mention, Xio, we've seen what might happen when one claims NEVER to be wrong, and when one refuses EVER to apologize or recant statements that are over the boundaries agreed upon by the masses as "right out".

Humans may be flawed, but they can learn. There is always hope.

Xioxou
16th February 03, 04:58 PM
Zing!

Sithray
16th February 03, 06:45 PM
Screw it, why get involved in a religious debate :headwall: I would say only 1% of the people posting here know what they are talking about.

I highly reccomend the book of Josephus for those of you who are confused about the existence of god. He was a non-biblical historian alive during the time of Christ. Very insightful.

imported_JC
17th February 03, 11:59 AM
Xio I shall not retract my statement, because you are placing your beliefs ahead of facts.

Where you there when the very first original Koran came in to being? That it just sprouted up all of the sudden on some pages that was given to someone? I forgot that you were 23436547568 years old and saw the very first one and have compared it to the latest one you have seen. As a matter of fact I bet you have the original very first Koran valued at $.027 and rising!

No you don't. No you didn't. Shut your trap because you are "believing" it hasn't been altered. You are ASSUMING (ASSSSSSS) that God ; or another being has written any book. You have 000000000 PROOF, that God inspired it himself, he wrote it, or anyone else KNOWS. You are taking a MAN'S word for it in ANY religion. In religions where it's not a man's word I laugh. HOW DO YOU KNOW? YOU DO NOT! YOU ASSUME. A MAN TELLS YOU THIS ( ASS x 10 ). You choose to believe it was how the book says to believe. You were not alive at the time and you don't KNOW it hasn't been altered from an original. That it wasn't just taken out of some wacko's head because he wanted to write that.

Aml

Nohn
17th February 03, 12:28 PM
Every living creature in this world dies alone. The people you've touched, the memories you've made, and the things you've learned, are what makes you up in the end. Everyone is a product of their own life. Whether or not theres an "after party" in heaven or not, is quite irrelevant. This concept only concerns those who are afraid to be alone, and those who fear the one inevitable fact of life.

You are going to die. Just accept whatever may come, you have no alternative.

Kiko
17th February 03, 01:08 PM
Right.. now another word about Heaven and Hell.

The old story about whatever traditional figure (St. Peter, Moses, pick one) showing some everyman/ordinary person a glimpse of both places. Both places hold a crowd of countless people/souls. Both have all these people at large banquet tables. The only eating utensils (which for some reason MUST be used- no hands allowed) are so LONG and must be held at the ends of their long handles, that it is impossible for anyone to feed themselves with them.

In Hell, each tortured one tries in vain to use the utensils and cannot manage to get the food into their own mouth. They are starving and miserable despite the presence of so much tempting food.

In Heaven everyone is well fed and happy, enjoying the banquet. Why? They are all feeding one another.

Silly idealism? Maybe so. I prefer to think not. Even if you don't believe in Heaven, Hell or God.

Sithray
17th February 03, 02:05 PM
The iggnorance of people in this thread astounds me.

joen00b
17th February 03, 05:01 PM
Everyone should just read the Divine Comedy and be over all this silly stuff!

Sveva
17th February 03, 05:41 PM
Really, the truth is we have NO SOLID PROOF over what exactly happens when we die. Thats the bottom line here folks. We really just don't know. All we have is what we read and what we hear from certain sources. We don't know who is right and we don't know who is wrong, and hell we could ALL be completely wrong. Everyone is really just going on what they believe.

I can see my thumb, I believe in my thumb.

I mean we just do not know without a doubt if there is a heaven or a hell or a summer country or whatever. We choose to believe what we want and we go from there.

We are all going to die. That is for certain. People should use the time they have here to try to live thier lives to the fullest and try to be good people. What we do know is this: Those of us alive this very second have this very second, thats all we have. We are not promised anything else, we could be dead from whatever causes tomorrow, or tonight or whenever.

Make the most out of the time you have. You never know how much time you may have left. My end will come, and all of yours will as well. Then we get to see if there is anything after death, or if we were just here to live for a little while and then follow through on the circle of life.

joen00b
17th February 03, 06:04 PM
But there IS Heaven and Hell, it's an album and song by Black Sabbath with Ronnie James Dio singing. Most amazing album as well.

Sveva
17th February 03, 06:05 PM
damn forgot about that, my bad hehe

joen00b
17th February 03, 06:55 PM
Sing me a song, you're a singer
Do me a wrong, you're a bringer of evil
The Devil is never a maker
The less that you give, you're a taker
So it's on and on and on, it's Heaven and Hell, oh well

The lover of life's not a sinner
The ending is just a beginner
The closer you get to the meaning
The sooner you'll know that you're dreaming
So it's on and on and on, oh it's on and on and on
It goes on and on and on, Heaven and Hell
I can tell, fool, fool!

Well if it seems to be real, it's illusion
For every moment of truth, there's confusion in life
Love can be seen as the answer, but nobody bleeds for the dancer
And it's on and on, on and on and on....

They say that life's a carousel
Spinning fast, you've got to ride it well
The world is full of Kings and Queens
Who blind your eyes and steal your dreams
It's Heaven and Hell, oh well
And they'll tell you black is really white
The moon is just the sun at night
And when you walk in golden halls
You get to keep the gold that falls
It's Heaven and Hell, oh no!Fool, fool!
You've got to bleed for the dancer!
Fool, fool!Look for the answer!
Fool, fool, fool!

Nohn
18th February 03, 03:29 PM
If you fully believe in the hearsay bullshit of any ethos in any given place, I feel bad for you. Religion is primarilly an institution to instill faith in the hearts and minds of the people we jointly inhabit the world with. A common set of spiritual beliefs that allow our faith to come to an apex in a center of worship, or around a certain set of goals and guidelines for how to live a "good" life. As we enter the 21st century, faith is still every bit as important as it has always been. However, which actual religion you believe in, is very very unimportant (speaking for the world, not for your indoctrinated family/relations who have more than likely, indoctrinated you or been indoctrinated by you.) Regardless of what is next, we all move towards it in our own way with our own set of beliefs, ideals, morals, etc. At the end of the day, what religion you profess to believe in, is no more important than any of your other core beliefs on your own existance. Religious debate is obviously very hot because no one can ever be proven wrong or right. Faith is one of the few freedoms we have regardless of all else in the world, especially in the opressed and impoverished areas of the planet. The more freedom we have in life, the less we need to lean on our crutches and explanations for why the next world will be better than this one. Believe what you want, but arguing the validity of a religion or set of religions over another, is the most futile task there is. Nothing you can do, say, or believe in, will change whatever happens after you die.

Kiko
18th February 03, 03:36 PM
Sure.. fine.. but TWO of my neighbors took the time to clear the snow from my driveway with their snowblowers.

Valde Fandango
18th February 03, 04:23 PM
I do nice things because I want to, not because a religon tells me I wont be roting in hell when I die, but I see what you're saying Kiko.

Kiko
18th February 03, 04:35 PM
Any religion that uses guilt or threats is very flawed. Doing good works to avoid 'damnation' is pretty lame. I'm glad you see my point, though. Human nature is flawed, but it's also all we got. That free will thing again.

joen00b
18th February 03, 04:59 PM
It was the Tube Top, Kiko.

Kiko
18th February 03, 05:04 PM
Maybe Tube SOCKS.. but in this weather.. no, not a tube top.

Maybe it was all my huffing and cussing as I fought with the snow? nah..

Energiser
18th February 03, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by Sithray
The iggnorance of people in this thread astounds me.

So enlighten them. Allow them to bask in your oppulent wisdom, Grand Poobah Sithray.

Bring them happiness with the gift of instruction.

They obviously can't be happy being so ignorant, the poor retarded fucks.