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patfromlogan
7th April 03, 12:19 PM
The British commander who seized Baghdad from the Ottoman Turks in March 1917, Gen. Sir Frederick Stanley Maude, told the local citizenry, "Our armies do not come into your cities and lands as conquerors or enemies, but as liberators."



>>>Always walk on a bright, wide road. If you choose to live with your right posture, you don't have to go on a dark road or a malodorous place. Oyama

Balloonknot
7th April 03, 12:23 PM
Oh please Pat, get over it. Iraq will be soooo much better off once this is all over. Accept.

Mr. Donkeypenis
7th April 03, 03:48 PM
These aren't the same people who ran Iraq in 1917.

A.K.A MEAT

Justme
7th April 03, 03:51 PM
Pat what is your problem? You don't see what is developing? You are that closed minded?

Wow!

PizDoff
7th April 03, 06:39 PM
so?

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed later.

Osiris
7th April 03, 06:49 PM
His point is that this is merely neoimperialism.

"You're stuck on a ship in a bottle, quite unique
You live inside my painting and move once a week
I switched the art around, my friends are gettin' suspicious"

Warcloud

patfromlogan
7th April 03, 08:58 PM
Actually I'm afraid it is a return to good old fashioned colonialism, plain and simple old fashioned grab the goodies and might makes right.


Here's a bunch of information and propaganda that only odd people like me and a few other crazies seem to like to read.





“Regime change” in Baghdad would reshuffle the cards and give U.S. (and British) companies a good shot at direct access to Iraqi oil for the first time in 30 years—a windfall worth hundreds of billions of dollars. U.S. companies relish the prospect: Chevron’s chief executive, for example, said in 1998 that he’d “love Chevron to have access to” Iraq’s oil reserves.23

In preface to the passage of Security Council Resolution 1441 on November 8, there were thinly veiled threats that French, Russian, and Chinese firms would be excluded from any future oil concessions in Iraq unless Paris, Moscow, and Beijing supported the Bush policy of regime change. Ahmed Chalabi, leader of the Iraqi National Congress (INC), an exile opposition group favored by the Bush administration, said that the INC would not feel bound by any contracts signed by Saddam Hussein’s government and that “American companies will have a big shot at Iraqi oil” under a new regime. U.S. and British oil company executives have been meeting with INC officials, maneuvering to secure a future stake in Iraq’s oil.24 Meanwhile, the State Department has been coaxing Iraqi opposition members to create an oil and gas working group involving Iraqis and Americans.25

Nikolai Tokarev, general director of Russia’s Zarubezhneft, a state-owned oil company, reflected in late 2002: “Do Americans need us in Iraq? Of course not. Russian companies will lose the oil forever if the Americans come.”26 Fears of being excluded from Iraq’s oil riches and losing influence in the region have fed Russian, French, and Chinese interest in constraining U.S. belligerence. These countries nonetheless are eager to keep their options open in the event that a pro-U.S. regime is installed in Baghdad, avoiding the “risk of ending up on the wrong side of Washington,” as the New York Times put it.27

Rival oil interests were a crucial behind-the-scenes factor as the permanent members of the UN Security Council jockeyed over the wording of Resolution 1441, intended to set the conditions for any action against Iraq. It is likely that backroom understandings regarding the future of Iraqi oil were part of the political minuet that finally led to the resolution’s unanimous adoption. U.S. promises that the other powers would get a slice of the pie, hinted at in broad terms, were apparently inducement enough to win their nod. It is thus unlikely that French, Russian, and Chinese companies will be completely locked out of a post-Saddam Iraq, though they could find themselves in a junior position.



From Surrogates to Direct Control
Throughout the history of oil, sorting out who gets access to this highly prized resource and on what terms has often gone hand in hand with violence. At first it was Britain, the imperial power in much of the Middle East, that called the shots. But for half a century, the U.S.—seeking a preponderant share of the earth’s resources—has made steady progress in bringing the Persian Gulf region into its geopolitical orbit. In Washington’s calculus, securing oil supplies has consistently trumped the pursuit of human rights and democracy.

U.S. policy toward the Middle East has long relied on building up proxy forces in the region and generously supplying them with arms. After the Shah of Iran, the West’s regional policeman, was toppled in 1979, Iraq became a surrogate of sorts when it invaded Iran. Washington aided Iraq in a variety of ways, including commodity credits and loan guarantees, indirect arms supplies, critical military intelligence in Baghdad’s long battle against Iran, a pro-Iraqi tilt in the “tanker war,” and attacks on Iran’s navy.

Beginning in the 1970s, but particularly in the wake of the 1991 Gulf War, the U.S. supplied Saudi Arabia and allied Persian Gulf states with massive amounts of highly sophisticated armaments. After the Gulf War, U.S. forces never left the region completely. By prepositioning military equipment and acquiring access to military bases in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, and Qatar, Washington prepared the ground for future direct intervention as needed.

In the Persian Gulf and adjacent regions, access to oil is usually secured by a pervasive U.S. military presence. From Pakistan to Central Asia to the Caucasus and from the eastern Mediterranean to the Horn of Africa, a dense network of U.S. military facilities has emerged—with many bases established in the name of the “war on terror.”

Although the U.S. military presence is not solely about oil, oil is a key reason. In 1999, General Anthony C. Zinni, then the head of the U.S. Central Command, testified to the Senate Armed Services Committee that the Persian Gulf region is of “vital interest” to the U.S. and that the country “must have free access to the region’s resources.”28

Bush administration officials have, however, categorically denied oil is one of the reasons why they are pushing for regime change in Iraq. “Nonsense,” Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told 60 Minutes’ Steve Kroft in mid-December 2002. “It has nothing to do with oil, literally nothing to do with oil.”

But oil industry officials interviewed by 60 Minutes on December 15 painted a different picture. Asked if oil is part of the equation, Phillip Ellis, head of global oil and gas operations for Boston Consulting replied, “Of course it is. No doubt.”

In fact, oil company executives have been quietly meeting with U.S.-backed Iraqi opposition leaders. According to Ahmed Chalabi, head of the Iraqi National Congress, “The future democratic government in Iraq will be grateful to the United States for helping the Iraqi people liberate themselves and getting rid of Saddam.” And he added that “American companies, we expect, will play an important and leading role in the future oil situation in Iraq.”



Oil Counts in Iraq War Equation
Regime change might mean a rise in output. For Russia, that could put prices, deals at risk.
By Warren Vieth
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer

Wednesday, 16 October, 2002

WASHINGTON -- The prospect of military action against Saddam Hussein has touched off an international contest for Iraq's vast oil reserves and has complicated U.S. efforts to cultivate Russia as a major future source of oil.

Moscow is seeking assurances from Washington that if Hussein is ousted, Western companies won't take away the lucrative oil-field development rights that Russian oil firms negotiated with the Iraqi president's government. Iraq's reserves are second in size only to Saudi Arabia's.

Industry experts and insiders say the issue has become a potential sticking point in negotiations between the Bush and Putin administrations over Washington's efforts to obtain United Nations backing for its Iraq policy.

"Russian companies are worried the new regime may discard previously signed agreements and favor the U.S. oil industry," said Fred Mutalibov, an oil-field services analyst for SWS Securities in Dallas. "To get Russia's support, or at least their silent agreement, the United States has to assure that Russian oil interests will be considered once the regime change has occurred."

But once the facilities are rehabilitated (a lucrative job for the oil service industry, including Vice President Cheney’s former employer, Halliburton) and new fields are brought into operation, the spigots could be opened wide. To pay for the massive task of rebuilding, a post-sanctions Iraq would naturally seek to maximize its oil production. Some analysts, such as Fadhil Chalabi, a former Iraqi oil official, assert that Iraq could produce 8-10 million b/d within a decade and eventually perhaps as much as 12 million.10

The impact on world markets is hard to overstate. Saudi Arabia would no longer be the sole dominant producer, able to influence oil markets single-handedly. Given that U.S.-Saudi relations cooled substantially in the wake of the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks—rifts that may widen further—a Saudi competitor would not be unwelcome in Washington. An unnamed U.S. diplomat confided to Scotland’s Sunday Herald that “a rehabilitated Iraq is the only sound long-term strategic alternative to Saudi Arabia. It’s not just a case of swapping horses in mid-stream, the impending U.S. regime change in Baghdad is a strategic necessity.”11



>>>Always walk on a bright, wide road. If you choose to live with your right posture, you don't have to go on a dark road or a malodorous place. Oyama

SLJ
8th April 03, 02:52 AM
Wow ! What an arguement.

I bet you have Saddam Hussein bed covers.

----------------------------------------------------------
Space may be the final frontier,
But it's made in a Hollywood basement.

Mr. Donkeypenis
8th April 03, 06:53 AM
So when we liberate Iraq, we get greater access to oil, the Iraqi people become involved in capitalism and start doing buisiness with us. By doing this they use the money to boost and revitalize their economy and stave off the horrible poverty that they have had to endure under Saddam's regime.

You think that sounds awful? It sounds more like a win-win situation for everyone.

Everyone wins except China, France and Russia. They were the ones selling chemical and biological arms to the Baath party in the first place.

Fuck 'em. They don't need a piece of the pie.

A.K.A MEAT

patfromlogan
8th April 03, 08:50 AM
So when we liberate Iraq, we get greater access to oil YES THAT IS THE POINT, the Iraqi people become involved in capitalism ADAM SMITH'S INVISIBLE HAND OF THE MARKET ECONOMY WILL BENEFIT THEM I'M SURE and start doing buisiness with us RATHER THAN THOSE HORRIBLE OTHER EARTHLINGS. By doing this they use the money to boost and revitalize their economy and stave off the horrible poverty that they have had to endure under Saddam's regime. THEY WERE ACTUALLY DOING WELL, WITH LOTS OF SOCIAL BENEFITS UNTIL THE GULF WAR 1. BA'ATH IS A SOCIALIST PARTY AFTERALL.

You think that sounds awful? It sounds more like a win-win situation for everyone.

Everyone wins except China, France and Russia. They were the ones selling chemical and biological arms to the Baath party in the first place. ACTUALLY POWELL WAS TELLING THE UN ABOUT WMD AND WAS ASKED FOR PROOF, HE TOLD THE UN THAT WE'D KEPT THE RECEIPTS. PLEASE REMEMBER THAT THE ONE THING BUSH SR. AND SADDAM AND OSAMA HAVE IN COMMON IS THEY WERE FUNDED BY OUR TAXES (CIA). THE UNITED STATES GAVE SADDAM WEAPONS, MONEY, AND HE WAS OUR BIG BUDDY, NOT SO LONG AGO.

Fuck 'em. They don't need a piece of the pie. THIS IS A MIGHT MAKES RIGHT ARGUMENT. THE ONLY ARGUMENT THE PRO PEOPLE REALLY HAVE - WE HAVE THE GUNS SO FUCK YOU, WE GET THE GOODIES. BRILLIANT BASIS (BASES) FOR POLICY. I'M SURE THE AMERICAN EMPIRE, BASED ON GREED AND EXPLOITATION WILL ENDURE JUST LIKE THE ROMAN - HA HA HA - THEY OFFERED LAW, ENGINERING, TRADE, CULTURE, EDUCATION, IRRIGATION, AND SO FORTH. THE US CAPATALISTS OFFER SHITTY WAGES AND DESTRUCTION OF TRADITIONAL LIFE STYLES AND THE ENVIRONMENT. LOOK AT NIGERIA FOR EXAMPLE, OR THE MAQUEADORAS, OR THE CONGO, THE FIRST AFRICAN DEMOCRACY KILLED BY THE US (CIA). OR BETTER YET IGNORE HISTORY AND LIVE IN A FANTASY WOURLD WHERE THE US IS FOR PEACE AND GOODWILL.

SORRY ABOUT THE CAPITAL LETTERS, I AM TRYING TO EDIT MY/YOUR STATEMENTS DIFFERENTIALLY OR SOMETHING - FUCK IT'S BEFORE DAWN HERE IN UT.

A.K.A MEAT (THAT'S WHAT MY WIFE CALLS ME...BUT SHE'S ADDS "HEAD" TO IT)


>>>Always walk on a bright, wide road. If you choose to live with your right posture, you don't have to go on a dark road or a malodorous place. Oyama

Mr. Donkeypenis
8th April 03, 09:07 AM
Quote: "...RATHER THAN THOSE HORRIBLE OTHER EARTHLINGS... "

Couldn't have said it better.

Quote: "THEY WERE ACTUALLY DOING WELL, WITH LOTS OF SOCIAL BENEFITS UNTIL THE GULF WAR 1. BA'ATH IS A SOCIALIST PARTY AFTERALL."

Socialism. All the more reason to get rid of them. Part of their social benfits?

Don't speak out against Saddam or defect or you die.

Rape rooms, getting dropped into plastic shredders, more social benefits.

You have great benefits if you are a kurd. If you are one of the lucky 100,000, you get to be gassed and die!

Do you want your 6 - 12 year old daughter raped? Odai Hussein can show you how!

If you don't speak out against Hussein you have the freedom to be a starving eggplant farmer with pathetic medical resources.

Yes, the Iraqis were doing great under the Ba'ath party.

Quote: "THE UNITED STATES GAVE SADDAM WEAPONS, MONEY, AND HE WAS OUR BIG BUDDY, NOT SO LONG AGO."

So what? That's all the more reason to go to war. Who better than the U.S. to clean up our own mistakes?

Quote: "THIS IS A MIGHT MAKES RIGHT ARGUMENT. THE ONLY ARGUMENT THE PRO PEOPLE REALLY HAVE "

Not quite. This is the arguement that if they are going to support inhuman regimes, they don't deserve shit. If we have the power to cut them off, than great. If you believe this is "might makes right" than I guess in this case, it does.

Quote: "I'M SURE THE AMERICAN EMPIRE, BASED ON GREED AND EXPLOITATION WILL ENDURE JUST LIKE THE ROMAN "

If you really hate this country so much and want to turn traitor, whay don't get the Hell out and move to a Socialist state? I'm sure you'll enjoy all the many benefits of havign the government take care of you.

One thing that caused the collapse of the Romans were corrupt politicians who wanted more to gain at the expense of the empire.

We also have corrupt politicians but I don't think we are the only ones.

Another thing that caused it's collapse was conquering so many countries and declaring their people Roman citizens. They also let people from these countries into high levels of their government.

Do we do this? Hell no. If you want to be a U.S. citizen, it isn't easy. How many foreigners do you see holding high govenment offices?

National sovreignity. All the more reason to get out of the UN.



A.K.A MEAT

Edited by - Mr. Donkeypenis on April 08 2003 10:37:05

Balloonknot
8th April 03, 09:17 AM
Oh boo hoo Pat, Iraq will now become a greater and more wealthy society. More importantly, democracy will rule the land (as it should)! You seem to forget about all the other atrocities that Sadam has done to his people like.... RAPE ROOMS, HUMAN MEAT GRINDERS, HUMAN SHIELDS, CHEMICAL TESTS ON HIS OWN PEOPLE, UNJUST BEATINGS, PEOPLE LIVING IN DAILY FEAR OF EXPRESSING THEIR OWN OPINIONS, FAMILIES MURDERED, ONE MILLION KURDS KILLED! - Boy, we should just turn around, and let it all go huh? What are you a commie nut or something? You focus too much on OIL. So what if we want to negotiate a better deal for ourselves, what nations wouldn't want to? It's true we fukked up in the past by giving weaponry and whatnot but the past is the past. Time will tell. If we "stay" and help rebuild Iraq and turn around the majority of it's poverty, then I would say this war has been just and a good thing. Now, go to the gas station and fill up your car with the lower gas prices. Amen.

Mr. Donkeypenis
8th April 03, 10:21 AM
Quote: "OR BETTER YET IGNORE HISTORY AND LIVE IN A FANTASY WOURLD WHERE THE US IS FOR PEACE AND GOODWILL."

As opposed to Marxist utopia? I think that the U.S. promoting peace and goodwill is quite a bit more believeable.

Quote: "A.K.A MEAT (THAT'S WHAT MY WIFE CALLS ME...BUT SHE'S ADDS "HEAD" TO IT)"

One thing we can both agree with, asian chicks are hot and make for great wives!





A.K.A MEAT

Boyd
8th April 03, 11:08 AM
Oh boo hoo Pat, Iraq will now become a greater and more wealthy society. More importantly, democracy will rule the land (as it should)!

That easy, huh?

They don't call it the Nazi PARTY for nothing!

Justme
8th April 03, 11:26 AM
"So when we liberate Iraq, we get greater access to oil YES THAT IS THE POINT"

Time will tell. I believe you are WRONG. What you say belittles the sacrifice some of our people are making in blood. If what you say is true, I don't think we would be as careful as we have been. I don't think other countries would be as careful as we have been. And if you think we are not, then you don't know history. But again, time will tell which side is right. I personally think in the near future we will discover alertnate sources for fuel. It is being worked on now. No other country will discover it. And if you think you and your kind are not belittling the sacrifice of our troops, I believe you are wrong.

Why don't you see if all we wanted was the oil, we could just take it. I, for one, refuse to make any apologies anymore. On 9-11 WE lost 3.000 people. WE were attacked! WE didn't start this. WE will finish it. WE didn't deserve to be attacked.

elipson
8th April 03, 12:43 PM
Uh excuse me Justme, but Saddam did not order that attack.
That was OBL, the REAL threat.

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
-Ghandi

Phrost
8th April 03, 04:05 PM
Not topic related, just found this funny:

http://www.jongreen.com/07-info-minister-inside.gif

Osiris
8th April 03, 04:59 PM
"Why don't you see if all we wanted was the oil, we could just take it"

Thats what we're doing, along with other things.

"On 9-11 WE lost 3.000 people. WE were attacked! WE didn't start this. WE will finish it. WE didn't deserve to be attacked."

Actually we did start this. You cant play god in a region and not get touched. It doesnt work that way. I can site examples of what has them pissed off, but Ive done so before.



"You're stuck on a ship in a bottle, quite unique
You live inside my painting and move once a week
I switched the art around, my friends are gettin' suspicious"

Warcloud

rellik_yzarc
8th April 03, 05:21 PM
So when we liberate Iraq, we get greater access to oil, the Iraqi people become involved in capitalism and start doing buisiness with us. By doing this they use the money to boost and revitalize their economy and stave off the horrible poverty that they have had to endure under Saddam's regime.


thats a false statement, before the gulf war the Iraqis were doing well, so well that the exchange rate for the iraqi currency is about 4 dollars. at that time also, iraq had the most phds in the world.
the horrible poverty came about because of the sanctions.

Chuck
8th April 03, 05:26 PM
Thanks Pat. You must be listening to a publicly (sic?) funded radio station, rather than one of the closed media that paid for the elections. Iraq will hopefully be better off after this is over (?). But it looks to me that the US and GB will have another "Belfast" coming up.

Remember, 15 of the hijackers were Saudi, and if you want to see a repressive regime...

Meanwhile wahts going on in North Korea...Red China (any Falun Gong here?)...Cuba...If the US is going to liberate a country there better by God be something worth liberating, like oil.

PizDoff
9th April 03, 12:37 PM
yawn

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed later.
"Just one more........rep!!! ARGH!!!" *Collapses*

Vargas
9th April 03, 07:18 PM
Yeah, right now, it looks like the Iraqi people are really pissed at the Marines and 3rd ID for smashing their government. But I'm just another warmongering, imperialist exploiter of the people, what the hell do I know, right?

But I forgot, it's all about oil. Freedom from tyranny has nothing to do with it.

"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"

patfromlogan
9th April 03, 11:33 PM
Well, shit Vargas, I'm glad you're here, the "do you want your 6 year old daughter raped by Saddam you friend of Saddam and why don't you go give Saddam a blow job?" type talk is not worth responding to. You of course are off base and misconstrued and mixed up and a pawn of the ruling class and puppet of the oligarchy that calling all the shots, but atleast you aren't insulting. :)

>>>Always walk on a bright, wide road. If you choose to live with your right posture, you don't have to go on a dark road or a malodorous place. Oyama

Vargas
9th April 03, 11:39 PM
True, I'm the soul of courtesy :) I feel your pain, though, I've had to bite my virtual tongue a few times reading some of the 'kill 'em all and let God sort them out' kind of posts. I may be opinionated, but I try to be at least a little open-minded, ya know?


"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"

danny
10th April 03, 12:21 AM
Who's this "Saddam" you speak of? Sounds like a pretty a-ok guy to me.

J Zen
10th April 03, 12:25 AM
Conclusion:

The US went to war with Iraq with the primary motives of perserving and protecting its self-interest (potential future WMD threats, oil, political influence, display of power, etc.) under the guise of "US the Liberator" rhetoric; resorting to some dishonest and questionable means of making its case for war. Regardless, some good came out of it for both sides, and whether if the future of Iraq and the region will be impacted positively or negatively by the action of the US remians to be seen.

There ya go, I think I pretty much got most of it. Now can we leave this to rest?

Sheol
11th April 03, 11:50 PM
Too many people discount the motives of this and every administration. They fail to take into account the myriad of individuals responsible for formulating and presenting policy proposals to the President and his Cabinet. Yes, national security is the #1 reason for dealing with Iraq, but liberation is hardly a guise. If you look at U.S. history, there has been a number of public servants who actually believe that it is the duty of the United States' to promote its democratic ideals. The amount of influence that they have had has fluctuated (tending to be minor due to being considered ideological extremists), but their voices are often heard during times of conflict, due to the fact that their views tend to be synergistic with that of national security. An administration is never a single cohesive body with its organs functioning in perfect harmony. Policy, be it public, military, or foreign, is often composed by those with disparate opinions, views, and interests. (Note the differences of opinion between the State Department and Defense Department.) The odds are that if a reason is given, someone believed in it enough to have it injected into a presentation to the President and his advisors. Also, don't forget that the President will likely have his own views that will shape the final policy.

Unless you are willing to take into account the myriad of factors, you are simply kibitzing in ignorance. (Something that the media is [in]famous for, especially when it comes to military strategy and tactics.)

The Wastrel
12th April 03, 12:49 AM
Sheol,
Come on now, you know very well that the government is a monolithic entity NOT composed of individuals working towards a variety of goals, for different motives, and sometimes even at cross-purposes! Really, for shame!

BTW: Two minutes after some statues come falling down, everyone is calling for American forces to "bring order" to protect the people of Baghdad. Well hell, the fighting's still going one for crissakes. And I love how the media seem to think it possible that the American tank that shot up the hotel did so on purpose. Hello!! Ever fight a war in a city of 6 million people with only the MEMORY of a map to guide you?! If you had, you'd know that if they had done so on purpose they would have shot some other building. I'm generally extremely disappointed in media coverage on all sides of the war.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Sheol
12th April 03, 02:04 AM
Wastrel:

Sorry, I forgot that if something isn't covered in a college Government class, it doesn't exist. Don't mind me. There's no such thing as inter/intra-departmental politics. ;)

I find it disturbing that people forget that our military is not trained to function as civil law enforcement. On the battlefield, the line between noncombatant (i.e. looter/arsonist) and combatant (i.e. Fedayeen) can be difficult to discern, especially when you only have a few seconds to decide who is who. Foisting yet another mission (with entirely different ROE) upon our frontline units, while still engaging in sporadic fights with the remaining Republican Guard and Fedayeen (in civilian clothing), is asking for trouble. The best that they can do is impose a curfew and keep things from getting TOTALLY out of hand until Coalition peacekeeping forces can be deployed. It's obvious that we want the Iraqis to govern themselves in a hurry.

Vargas
12th April 03, 10:25 AM
Yep, we really could use the 7th Light Infantry right about now. Oh, I forgot, they were disbanded along with all the other divisions back in the 90s! Boy, that sure wasn't a very bright idea, was it? Why keep people around when we have technology?

Because, as everyone knew back in 1992, we would never fight another war, so let the cutbacks begin! Roll out the 'peace dividend' and let the party begin!

"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"

PizDoff
12th April 03, 01:11 PM
lol at this thread

Sheol-Stop that, too much thinking and truth! :)

"It's obvious that we want the Iraqis to govern themselves in a hurry."
this is where i think the UN should come in with UN peacekeepers and also help distribute supplies.....though i doubt many of the neighboring countries care that much about Iraqis

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed later.
"Just one more........rep!!! ARGH!!!" *Collapses*

Freddy
12th April 03, 04:25 PM
Oh no I think the Iraqi people should have some fun and pilage and loot as much as they can from Iraq's rich.
He He!

"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"

Osiris
12th April 03, 10:00 PM
Let them loot. Its none of our concern.

Wastrel I look at the government as any other organization. Yes they have internal problems, but they are capable of moving as one entity. Like a business or a family. The internal struggle is relatively unimportant. When they decide to do something in general they unify and argue about it afterwards.

"You say, "Nobody is going to pay Kim until there is some guarantee they will get what they paid for." The point is I'M NOT SELLING!" Ashida Kim

Kungfoolss
13th April 03, 04:33 PM
The nauseating conspiracies and ulterior motives attributed to America's every action by the left is just despicable. Conspiracies are ALWAYS the last refuge for the impotent mind of a weak debater. One often finds many of them in the leftist ideologue.

It is the stigma of the left to ever be on the opposite side of freedom, burdened by an existence of abject delusion. I want everyone to keep in mind as you read the following news article to realize that liberals have a perverse view of tyrannical and despotic regimes. It is often overlooked, excused and tolerated so as to be in accordance with their socialistic vision, similar to what is represented here as they futilely championed for the survival of the Iraqi dictatorship.

These morally repugnant liberals, the self-appointed guardians of social order, aren't in the least bit concerned with the welfare of the poor citizens suffering and dying under these repressive governments, but with subverting the might and sanctity of this great country by whatever means available. True freedom is not bound by the individuals race, his creed or the separation of borders. It is the nature of every man to yearn for freedom and while the democratic left despises and desires to suppress it, America will bring that Freedom to the rest of the world.

"I knew that however bad the Republican party was, the Democratic party was much worse. The elements of which the Republican party was composed gave better ground for the ultimate hope of the success of the colored man's cause than those of the Democratic party." Fredrick Douglass 1881

***************************************

Whitewashing Castro's Crimes

by Jeff Jacoby (April 14, 2000)

Summary: It's an old, old story. Lincoln Steffens, one of the best-known journalists of his day, went to the Soviet Union in 1919 -- when the Red Terror was butchering people by the tens of thousands -- and reported: "I have seen the future, and it works!" He was the first in a long line of journalists to whitewash the crimes of communist tyrants and minimize the anguish of their victims.

Two days before Elián Gonzalez's father arrived in the United States last week, NBC aired a preview of the boy's future if he is taken back to Cuba. From Havana, reporter Jim Avila began with the "exclusive neighborhood" where Elián's father lives and the "good jobs in the local government" held by members of his family. (Juan Miguel Gonzalez is a hotel cashier.) "If and when Elián returns," Avila said, "he will become a 4-foot-tall deity in a country that officially does not believe in God.... His home, a two-bedroom converted garage that has been repainted and improved by the government, is comfortable. Here he has his own room, a luxury in housing-short Cuba."

That was just the warm-up.

"Elián's future here is likely to be the Cuban good life lived by Communist Party elite," Avila gushed, "with perks like five free gallons of gasoline a month for the family, and a Cuban tradition called `La Jaba' -- the bag -- which includes extra rice, beans, cooking oil, and sundries like deodorant, shampoo, razors, and shaving cream; about $15 a month worth of basics. Plus, invitations reserved for the party elite to cultural events, sports, discos, and restaurants, access to the best medicine, expensive drugs ... not available to everyone in Cuba."

As Brent Baker of the Media Research Center -- whose treasure-trove of a Web site, www.mrc.org, transcribed much of Avila's report -- acidly comments: "Wow. How could anyone resist the promise of $15 worth of shampoo, deodorant, and rice in a bag?" It is a strange kind of journalism that describes a converted garage and a bag of groceries as "perks" of the "good life" enjoyed by the "elite." Strange -- but familiar. Forty years of communism have turned Cuba into a tropical hellhole, a land where life is so miserable that each year thousands of people risk everything to escape. Half of them meet the fate that befell 11 of the 13 refugees who were in the boat with Elián last fall. Yet time and again, journalists paint a glowing picture of Cuban society.

In 1988, Kathleen Sullivan of CBS spent two days broadcasting from Cuba. The lack of freedom or democracy on the island she mentioned only in passing; her reports were filled instead with upbeat paeans to Fidel Castro's supposed achievements. "This is a clinic," she enthused in one segment. "It is the heart of a health care system which has been called a 'revolution within a revolution.' Of all the promises made by Fidel Castro in 1959, perhaps the boldest was to provide quality health care free for every citizen." The island's young people, Sullivan declared, "all have benefited from Castro's Cuba." She interviewed only supporters of the regime, such as Sandra Levinson of the Center for Cuban Studies, who groused that "there are a lot of young people who simply cannot appreciate ... what the revolution has given them."

That was nothing next to the sugar-coating that Giselle Fernandez, also of CBS, gave Cuba a few years later.

"Welcome to Fidel Castro's playground, Cuba's Caribbean paradise," she rhapsodized. "Cuba and its sultry beaches have become a major vacation hot spot." Fernandez didn't note that human rights organizations identify the Castro regime as one of the world's most repressive, or explain how the state uses prostitution to attract hard currency. She did reveal, though, that "along Havana's famous seafront, a proud tradition of honoring a revolutionary hero is passed on to a new generation of Cubans. They sing songs of socialism, songs of tribute to Fidel Castro." This journalistic swoon for Castro has a flip side. If the Bearded One's rule is romantic and admirable, those who oppose him must be crude and distasteful. Which pretty much sums up the way Castro's fervent opponents -- especially those in Florida -- have been described throughout the Elián affair.

Some suggest "that it's wrong to expect Elián Gonzalez to live in a place that tolerates no dissent or freedom of political expression," a sarcastic Katie Couric opened NBC's "Today" show one day last week. "They were talking about Miami." Over on ABC, John Quinones complained that in Miami "everything is colored by a hatred of communism and Fidel Castro. It's a community with very little tolerance for those who might disagree." On "Crossfire," Bill Press compared the mayor of Miami -- who said the city's police would refuse to drag Elián from his relatives' home -- to Orval Faubus and George Wallace, two segregationist governors of the Jim Crow South. Time magazine's Tim Padgett reached for the ultimate anti-communist bogeyman; the Miami relatives' spokesman, he wrote, has "a heavy touch of Joe McCarthy in him."

One day Castro's brutality will end. But that end will not be hastened by the Western press, which cannot seem to shed its esteem for Fidelismo. If you want to know what awaits Elián back in Cuba, you shouldn't be watching NBC.

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=340



Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Mcdojo.com, creator of the Kungfoolss Darwinian Awards, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena

http://forums.delphiforums.com/testing12345703/start





Edited by - Kungfoolss on April 14 2003 03:56:43

Kungfoolss
13th April 03, 04:53 PM
Since many American's memories are so short, Elián Gonzalez was the child that escaped from communist Cuba only to be forcibly returned by the Clinton administration. Operation was headed by none other than Butcher of Waco herself, Janet Reno. ->

http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=testing12345703&msg=339.128


"No socialist system can be established without a political police... They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo." Sir Winston S. Churchill 1945



Edited by - kungfoolss on April 13 2003 17:05:03

The Wastrel
13th April 03, 05:51 PM
Hang on there KF, just remember that there are one or two liberals out there who are exasperated with the same things you are. I think the Western left is in a bit of a crisis of direction. I, for one, am not confused about my own.

As for the Elián case, I think there are simply some troubling consequences for seizing children from parents because of political differences. That *IS* part of the American conservative and libertarian ideological platform, if I remember. That issue split over purely partisan political (couldn't resist the alliteration) divides, rather than ideological ones. Poltical opportunism, plain and simple.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Osiris
13th April 03, 11:19 PM
About Cuba, its not what the government would have you to believe. Of course the cubans running to the US hate it. Otherwise they wouldnt be running. The people that lost control after the revolution are now complaining. Thats all that is.

"You say, "Nobody is going to pay Kim until there is some guarantee they will get what they paid for." The point is I'M NOT SELLING!" Ashida Kim

Sheol
13th April 03, 11:42 PM
Osiris:
So, would YOU want to live there?

grego
14th April 03, 10:45 AM
Sadam ain't that bad. Once in college him and I dormed for a semester. Besides him always yelling "AMERICA MUST DIE" and him trying to stab me with any sharp object, he was really a rocking dude. Man once we had a kegger and he got so drunk he started karioking(sp?). Guy's got the voice of an angel believe it or not.

All I'm hoping for outta this war is for the US military to bring back some of them Iraqi babies. I hear they're really good eating.

Osiris
14th April 03, 11:41 AM
"Osiris:
So, would YOU want to live there?"

No, but not every country is going to be up to the same standards of the united states in terms if economy and in terms of rights. Thats to be expected. Just like there are neighborhoods here I wouldnt want to be in. Like the one Im in now. Quit being a snob.

"You say, "Nobody is going to pay Kim until there is some guarantee they will get what they paid for." The point is I'M NOT SELLING!" Ashida Kim

magikchiongson
14th April 03, 02:30 PM
Man you guys ever give up? Too many things to argue about all wrapped in one thread. Yes U.S likes Oil, what a surprise.... How evil of us to try to rebuild Iraq's only source of income....

Iraq was doing fine before Gulf War? LoL that's hilarious... I imagine living under a Stalinists Dictator massacring his own people is "just fine" to a leftists. Never mind the shootings and the mass rapes folks they had the most PHDs in the World! What a Great Leader Saddam is!

Frankly I don't care whether we pissed off the Arab Mob or not, you have but to take a brief glance in the Middle East and see what a right bloody mess that place is in. You think I'm going to listen to people who say we're "Playing God in the Middle East" Arabs can't even get a long with each other, what makes you think they will get a long with us in the first place.

9/11 was just a manifestation of the insanity that plagues that place of motley dictators and mullahs. That's what happens when you mix Socialists with Fundamentalists, hell. I can't believe people are still dumb enough to try to defend Bin Laden's actions or justify it or somehow blame America for it. Do you guy's even bother to listen as to what grievances these people have? Bin Laden wanted revenge for what happened in Andalusia.... do u even know what Andalusia is? Its basically modern day Spain, the psycho wants to blow stuff up because he's angry that Christian Spain drove the Almohads from freaking Spain during the RECONQUESTA. But let's sit here and intellectually discuss the "real" grievances Arabs have for hating the U.S I mean beause there's so many of them...

Sheol
14th April 03, 03:50 PM
Osiris:

"Quit being a snob."

ROTFLMAO! You have no clue about me, my background, and my experiences. What makes you think that you know enough about me to say something as asinine as that? Still, go on. It really amuses me. :D

How many people flee the United States? Do we have people packing into fishing boats and makeshift rafts? Do we have Americans hijacking boats and planes, demanding passage to good ol' Cuba or France? If those wanting to flee Cuba are such a minority, then why does Castro's government prevent them from leaving? Extreme action on the part of those individuals is not occurring in vacuum. It's a 'spill-over' of a prevailing sense of fear, frustration, and desperation on the part of most Cubans that are not part of the Communist 'elite'.

The U.S. has been waiting to see if the Communist government will collapse once Fidel dies. We already have enough reason to act against that regime due to its support of Communist insurgents and 'safe-harboring' of terrorists. If a new dictator comes to power and does not institute reform, then I wouldn't be surprised if the U.S. decides to take action against Cuba.

Like, the Iraqis, we abandoned the Cubans to the devices of a totalitarian government. I wonder when we'll rectify that mistake.

Edited by - Sheol on April 14 2003 15:52:23

Osiris
14th April 03, 06:58 PM
"What makes you think that you know enough about me to say something as asinine as that?"

I only take people as they present themselves.

"If those wanting to flee Cuba are such a minority, then why does Castro's government prevent them from leaving?"

Never said that theyre a minority. Theyre the former middle class.

BTW some americans have fled to Cuba.

Like I said, not everyone can be America.

"You say, "Nobody is going to pay Kim until there is some guarantee they will get what they paid for." The point is I'M NOT SELLING!" Ashida Kim

Sheol
14th April 03, 07:42 PM
Osiris:

"I only take people as they present themselves."

Do you care to explain why you believe that I am "being a snob" or provide examples of snobbery?

"Never said that theyre a minority. Theyre the former middle class."

"Middle class" is such a misused term. Are you saying that all of those people were not members of the working class or were "capitalists"? Further, considering that a great percentage of Cuban refugees are under the age of 50, that would mean that most of them have known nothing but communist rule.

"BTW some americans have fled to Cuba."

A number of criminals and "wanted" persons have fled prosecution by going to Cuba and paying off Cuban officials. Some stayed in Cuba, but most used it as a transit point to another country where there is no extradition treaty with the United States. I would not compare them to most Cuban refugees. To be sure, some of the Cuban refugees are actually criminals fleeing prosecution, as opposed to political criminals, but they constitute a minority.

The Americans that decided to move to Cuba due to personal ideology, did not flee. There is no law against them leaving this country. (Incidentally, how many of them actually RENOUNCED their U.S. citizenship?) Further, they do not constitute a significant number. I certainly would not compare it to the thousands that successful fled Cuba... or the many more that didn't make it.

"Like I said, not everyone can be America."

Explain. Is there something intrinsically lacking in other 'cultures' or 'people'? Is there some secret to our system's success? There are obstacles in changing any system and the final execution may not be identical, but the principles of governance remain the same.

Edited by - Sheol on April 14 2003 19:45:14

Osiris
14th April 03, 08:14 PM
"you saying that all of those people were not members of the working class or were "capitalists"? Further, considering that a great percentage of Cuban refugees are under the age of 50, that would mean that most of them have known nothing but communist rule."

No, Im saying that its as if white people as a whole lost power in America. They would likely be made VERY unhappy by whoever gained control.

"Do you care to explain why you believe that I am "being a snob" or provide examples of snobbery?"

In general youre ok. I do consder your earlier comment snobbish, however.

"A number of criminals and "wanted" persons have fled prosecution by going to Cuba and paying off Cuban officials"

It depends on your viewpoint. Some people consider said persons political prisoners and such. Other people really dont think that Cuba is that bad. Whether they fled or not isnt the point. Its that people would actually choose to live there.

"Is there some secret to our system's success?"

GUNS!!!


"You say, "Nobody is going to pay Kim until there is some guarantee they will get what they paid for." The point is I'M NOT SELLING!" Ashida Kim

Sheol
14th April 03, 08:45 PM
Osiris:

"No, Im saying that its as if white people as a whole lost power in America. They would likely be made VERY unhappy by whoever gained control."

You said, "theyre the former middle class", not that they were the politically dispossessed. Even if that was what you meant, that's effectively saying that a discernable group that constitutes the majority of Cubans lost their voice in government. How does that contradict what the U.S. government has asserted regarding Cuba's government? You're attempting to obfuscate your own argument.

"In general youre ok. I do consder your earlier comment snobbish, however."

If you'll point out the comment, I'll be glad to consider what I typed. If it's about my question regarding whether "YOU" would want to live there, I thought it was a legitimate question to ask as it sounded as if you were infering that life in Cuba was generally better in some way.

"It depends on your viewpoint. Some people consider said persons political prisoners and such. Other people really dont think that Cuba is that bad. Whether they fled or not isnt the point. Its that people would actually choose to live there."

If someone was going to be a 'big fish' in a little pond, $10000 would make you wealthy in Cuba, then the transition can make a instantaneous difference. Yet, I would have to guess that the primary motive in such a voluntary move would probably ideological, rather than one simply based upon the increase in status. It doesn't hurt that American ex-patriates become elevated propaganda pieces for the government, recieving preferential treatment. I'd imagine that it could be a die-hard communist's concept of paradise, now that the U.S.S.R. is gone.

Regarding the 'secret' of our success, the right to bear arms is assumed and reaffirmed in our Constitution as a way of asserting the right to protect one's self against criminals and tyrants. It is a protection that isn't asserted in every democratic society, but it doesn't explain why another country couldn't succeed utilizing the same principles.

Edited by - Sheol on April 14 2003 20:50:56

Osiris
14th April 03, 09:00 PM
"that's effectively saying that a discernable group that constitutes the majority of Cubans lost their voice in government. How does that contradict what the U.S. government has asserted regarding Cuba's government?"

See below.

"We already have enough reason to act against that regime due to its support of Communist insurgents and 'safe-harboring' of terrorists."

Cuba hasnt REALLY been a threat to us since the cold war. Also, the government doesnt give a real description of either capitalism or of communism.

"the right to bear arms is assumed and reaffirmed in our Constitution as a way of asserting the right to protect one's self against criminals and tyrants. It is a protection that isn't asserted in every democratic society, but it doesn't explain why another country couldn't succeed utilizing the same principles."

Thats not what i meant. America became America through the force of its military. America remains America through the force of its military.



"You say, "Nobody is going to pay Kim until there is some guarantee they will get what they paid for." The point is I'M NOT SELLING!" Ashida Kim

Sheol
14th April 03, 09:49 PM
Cuba may not, in and of itself, be capable of being a significant threat to U.S. interests through direct military action, but it remains a supporter of destabilizing elements throughout the Americas. While it might not have the assets to develop nuclear weapons, it has supported or provided safe haven for certain terrorist organizations and their supporters.

America's military is what protects us from outside threats. We certainly owe our continued freedom to them. However, isn't that one of the key reasons for the existence of government in the first place? Also, isn't providing mutual defense essential for any government to survive the machinations of other powers?

I believe that the U.S. 'unconconsciously' believes that it still has a duty to protect others, though the willingness to act has not always been there. Even the Clinton administration decided to utilize military action, however half-hearted, to intervene overseas.

As a result, many nations have actually prospered due to the umbrella of U.S. influence. Japan, which lacks strategic resources, has the second-largest economy. Would they have been so successful without the protection of U.S. forces? Remember, they are surrounded by nations, even other U.S. allies, that still harbor grudges against them. What about Taiwan? Would they still be free from China without the threat of U.S. intervention? How about South Korea? Could they have protected themselves from Korean and Chinese forces, by themselves? What about the European Union? With the exception of the United Kingdom, how capable would they have been in warding off the Soviet bloc?

All of those aforementioned nations FINANCIALLY and POLITICALLY benefitted from the willingness of the U.S. to protect them. They didn't have to spend the money to protect themselves. Even the United Nations (at its predecessor) was principally created due to U.S. initiatives.

Is it entirely magnanimous? No, but we already know that people and their governments are not entirely philanthropic. Right? That's why France, Germany, and Russia were against military action in the first place. They had nothing to gain (in fact, they risked LOSING billions in outstanding Iraqi debts) and do not need U.S. protection... or at least they believe that they don't.

The U.S. exercises the force so that other countries don't have to. Sometimes we resent the role. In fact, George W. Bush came into office with the intent of ending that role, thus forcing our allies to do their part. THAT was the major miscalculation on the part of the terrorists. We were already in isolationist mode. The American public no longer cared about the Middle East and elected an administration that reflected that feeling. What they did, completely changed our mind and reaffirmed that we have to be willing to use force to protect our own interests... because who else would? France? Germany? Russia?

Any new democratic nation has an advantage that the U.S. didn't have as a infant nation. There's a relatively friendly country that's willing to fight at 100%. They might not like everything that we do and we might not like everything that they do, but there is that safety net. They only have to worry about basic domestic protection... something to hold-off the wolves at the gate. Even our erstwhile allies, such as France and Germany, still know that they can rely upon us, should Russia or some other country decide that military conquest is the easy road to success.

It's a mess, but who said that real life geopolitics was pretty?

Edited by - Sheol on April 14 2003 21:55:25

patfromlogan
15th April 03, 01:47 PM
Sheol Too many people discount the motives of this and every administration. They fail to take into account the myriad of individuals responsible for formulating and presenting policy proposals to the President and his Cabinet

Here's link to the DOD official bio of Dr. Strangelove himself, Wolfowitz. http://www.defenselink.mil/bios/depsecdef_bio.html

And here's a link from Asia Times that is a BIT more concerned with what is really going on:http://atimes.com/se-asia/CC21Ae01.html

If you do think there is really a "myriad of individuals," please look at the above links and read further. I heard a rep from FCLN, Friends Committee on National Legislation (a Quaker lobbying group) speak two weeks ago. FCNL has a good reputation in DC because of it's history of issue orientation (nonpartisan) and it's reputation for getting the facts right. They have worked with every administration from Roosevelt on. When they went to meet Bush's people they were, for the first time, turned away, being told that "We don't listen to opinions that disagree with ours." This is symptomatic of totalitarianism.


>>>Always walk on a bright, wide road. If you choose to live with your right posture, you don't have to go on a dark road or a malodorous place. Oyama

Freddy
15th April 03, 02:10 PM
Cuba has never been link to "terrorist organizations" btw.

"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"

PizDoff
15th April 03, 02:13 PM
just nukes and communism.....

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed later.
"Just one more........rep!!! ARGH!!!" *Collapses*

The Wastrel
15th April 03, 03:31 PM
Sorry Pat, I don't care for Wolfie myself, but that second article referred to the 1965 coup as being U.S. backed, and that is just false. They haven't even figured out who really started it.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Sheol
15th April 03, 05:02 PM
Wastrel:
Could you explain the signifcance of the Lourdes 'RADAR' base, Castro's trips to Syria, Libya, and Iran, his presence at the ground-breaking ceremony at certain facility outside Tehran, and documented Cuban presence in certain Afghan 'educational' camps? Perhaps they need a second view and, right now, I might get impolite if I have to spell it out. <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

patfromlogan
15th April 03, 06:46 PM
Wastrel, You could be correct, who knows, though having been family friends with the Colby's in Vietnam (20,000 killed in project phoenix?)and seeing what the CIA has done in many countries (Jamaica for one) but the important point is that "Wolfowitz's career is a textbook example of Cold War politics that focused for nearly 50 years on the care and feeding of dictators like Suharto, Chun Doo-hwan in South Korea, and Ferdinand Marcos in the Philippines." I could add 100 years of oppression with the establishment of dictatorships in Central America (Samosas in Nic, El Salvador, Guatemala and so forth), more in Asia like Diem is Vietnam. Wolfowitz's plans for decades have been for US domination, might makes right, and now they are embraced by Bush and the rest of the administration.

History quiz: What little known rep from Wyoming stone walled the cocaine/contra connection in 1986 and protected Bush sr.?

And Sheol, Japan is a hell of a capitalist democracy. More of a corrupt command economy; where in fear of commies we re-installed the five families (war crimes? what war crimes?). And read up on Wolfy, the US is bent on world domination. Our current Iraq policy will work out as a recruiting campaign for the terrorist.
.

>>>Always walk on a bright, wide road. If you choose to live with your right posture, you don't have to go on a dark road or a malodorous place. Oyama

The Wastrel
15th April 03, 06:47 PM
Well, the Lourdes base is a MASINT/RADINT/SIGINT facility owned and operated in Havana by Russia. Such a mission would include the tracking of civilian aircraft routes, and they would have compiled a massive database over the years. Believe me, SIGINT people know a lot about day to day operations of many things you wouldn't even anticipate, and those things can be very useful. The Russians were planning to close the station around January 2002. I'm not sure about the current status. This, combined with the *REPORTS* that Mohammad Atta met with Cuban intel people (these guys DID spend a lot fo time in Miami), should make people worry about whether or not intelligence collected by the Lourdes facility was used to aid the 11 Sept hijackers. I'm not sure of how certain these connections are, but they exist.

People, Castro has talked quite openly about Cuba's potential cooperation in engineering "the downfall" of the U.S. and their solidarity with the Anti-American struggle of Iran, Syria, et. al. I don't follow Cuba as much as I should...not sure about Afghanistan...hmmm.

Granted, Castro has been given plenty of reason to take a hard approach to the U.S. Justified as he may be from a neutral observer's position, he still presents a credible regional threat.

I am of the opinion that we should go about "killing them softly" with the almighty American dollar, but not because I don't think there's a genuine threat.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

PizDoff
15th April 03, 06:52 PM
why do you know that?
did you copy and paste that?
how do you know that?
nuts.......

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed later.
"Just one more........rep!!! ARGH!!!" *Collapses*

The Wastrel
15th April 03, 07:02 PM
Pizdoff,
I have a profile. I was in Army SIGINT for four years.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Sheol
15th April 03, 07:11 PM
Wastrel:
Regarding Cubans in Afghanistan, refer to information obtained from captured Taliban and AQ fighters. It's there.


patfromlogan:
I'm not saying that various U.S. administrations have not executed some half-baked and detrimental operations. I'm critical of our proxy policies and how poorly we have monitored some of our 'allies', as well as other expedient strategies. Yet, you must admit that we are a lot pickier about our 'bedfellows' than those we fight against. There were a number of extremely bad choices, but unless you have the details as to the options available to our intelligence services, it's altogether too easy to fire off blanket criticism.

The Wastrel
15th April 03, 07:16 PM
Pat,
I think I should point out, as much as I despise Reagan....IT WAS CARTER WHO WAS PRESIDENT DURING CHUN DOO-HWAN'S BRUTAL REPRESSION OF KWANGJU. CARTER!!! Mr. Nobel Peace Prize himself. Why? because he didn't want to interfere. He had too much contempt for involving himself with the evil occupation of poor South Korea. And it was an AMERICAN STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL, Philip Habib, who managed to rescue Kim Dae-Jung from KCIA execution.

Look, don't simplify the security situation. It was bad, and people also made horrible mistakes, but there were also horrible internal divisions. The CIA aren't all monsters. Operatives defected from the Latin America division during the 70's and 80's because they were disgusted at what was going on. Rightly, but there are good people there. That's why we know some of these things now.

None of this is news, all of it is embarassing. But what? Do we throw up our hands and die of shame? No, we keep trying. That's part of why I, despite my liberalism, am committed to a career in one of these "evil" organizations. I will not abandon it like so many others have.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Kungfoolss
15th April 03, 11:19 PM
None of this is news, all of it is embarassing. But what? Do we throw up our hands and die of shame? No, we keep trying. That's part of why I, despite my liberalism, am committed to a career in one of these "evil" organizations. I will not abandon it like so many others have.


Perhaps, you should follow President Reagan's lead, stating he didn't leave the democratic party, they left him.

Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Mcdojo.com, creator of the Kungfoolss Darwinian Awards, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena

http://forums.delphiforums.com/testing12345703/start

The Wastrel
15th April 03, 11:37 PM
Kugfoolss,
As long as the Republican party courts the radical religious right and continues to scrabble at social security just so they can line their pockets, they will have no support from me.

Actually, this brings up an interesting subject...ME! Why I am I such a weird liberal?!

Examples:

1. Affirmative action programs: Non, merci!
2. Defense Spending: Oui, monsieur! As long as it's not wasteful shite like the Anthrax vaccine and the Osprey.
3. International Intervention: Ja, Ich mochte das sehr! But for what REASONS? And through what tools?
4. Covert Operations: Heck yeah! But do it right this time for crissakes!

But then:

1. Abortion: Oh my holy heck! Like it or not, you can't force someone to carry a baby to term! That's too freakin' weird!
2. Pledge of Allegiance: How about I display my love for America by swearing and burning the flag?! That seems like a singularly American right! I wouldn't do it, but I would flee IN A MOMENT any country where that became illegal.
3. Public Schools: Should have them, should support them. On the other hand, what is UP with Democrats who think more *MONEY* equals better schools? Smells like TEACHER'S UNION!
4. Theater Missile Defense: Are you freaking crazy? Why waste 100 GAZILLION dollars on it when an American high school football team could wipe out most other national armies?! The problem is small-scale threats. Mass destruction no longer requires the resources of an industrial state...and it can't be prevented by them either.
5. Welfare: Sure, but then again...


**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

patfromlogan
15th April 03, 11:59 PM
Wastrel, where did I say I liked Carter? I can't stand Bush, therefore I like the democrats. As my buddy said, "The republican say let the poor starve, the democrats say throw them a crust."

"Operatives defected from the Latin America division during the 70's and 80's because they were disgusted at what was going on. Rightly, but there are good people there. That's why we know some of these things now."

Yeah, they quit and talked and that's why we know what fucks the CIA are.

Anyhow as far as I can tell the US policy now is world domination, might makes right, all power to the corporations for which we suffer.

>>>Always walk on a bright, wide road. If you choose to live with your right posture, you don't have to go on a dark road or a malodorous place. Oyama

The Wastrel
16th April 03, 12:01 AM
MAYBE that's the Bush policy Pat, but don't turn away for that. If you think the only option is really turning away, then it's time for you and I to move to Norway.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

The Wastrel
16th April 03, 12:02 AM
That's funny about Bush/Carter. I can't stand either side. We're in kind of the same dilemma.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

elipson
16th April 03, 12:13 AM
That's the problem with your ridiculous two partry system!!!
Sometimes, BOTH parties suck!!!
Remember the last election?

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
-Ghandi

The Wastrel
16th April 03, 12:45 AM
The American electoral rule results in two-party competition. That's just the way it is.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Sheol
16th April 03, 02:37 AM
patfromlogan:

"I can't stand Bush, therefore I like the democrats."

That's a great way to decide upon whom to vote for.

As my buddy said, "The republican say let the poor starve, the democrats say throw them a crust."

Wow, picking and choosing positions. Moderate Democrat = Sympathetic, extreme Republican = Unsympathetic, therefore Republican = Bad? Your buddy must have been a really sharp thinker.

Hey Wastrel, isn't it wonderful how simple political arguments are? It makes me wonder why the parties even bother having campaigns, since the issues are so clear-cut.

Kungfoolss
19th April 03, 02:07 AM
Kugfoolss,
As long as the Republican party courts the radical religious right and continues to scrabble at social security just so they can line their pockets, they will have no support from me.

Actually, this brings up an interesting subject...ME! Why I am I such a weird liberal?!

Examples:

1. Affirmative action programs: Non, merci!
2. Defense Spending: Oui, monsieur! As long as it's not wasteful shite like the Anthrax vaccine and the Osprey.
3. International Intervention: Ja, Ich mochte das sehr! But for what REASONS? And through what tools?
4. Covert Operations: Heck yeah! But do it right this time for crissakes!

But then:

1. Abortion: Oh my holy heck! Like it or not, you can't force someone to carry a baby to term! That's too freakin' weird!
2. Pledge of Allegiance: How about I display my love for America by swearing and burning the flag?! That seems like a singularly American right! I wouldn't do it, but I would flee IN A MOMENT any country where that became illegal.
3. Public Schools: Should have them, should support them. On the other hand, what is UP with Democrats who think more *MONEY* equals better schools? Smells like TEACHER'S UNION!
4. Theater Missile Defense: Are you freaking crazy? Why waste 100 GAZILLION dollars on it when an American high school football team could wipe out most other national armies?! The problem is small-scale threats. Mass destruction no longer requires the resources of an industrial state...and it can't be prevented by them either.
5. Welfare: Sure, but then again...



1a. Measuring a man by the content of his character rather than by the color of his skin. I'm sure we're in agreement there.

2a. I'm an advocate for weapons research, more importantly the development of something a bit more powerful than the existing nuclear capability.

3a. I share the Presidents 'Leaning Forward' policy toward our enemies and strategic allies.

4a. Don't forget the CIA's revamped paramilitary arm for covert operations.


1b. You don't have to be religious to understand the moral implications of a third trimester abortion, which is just appalling and inhuman. Murder of an innocent life cannot be morally justified because it was "inconvenient" The right has a saying, "We're pro-choice as well, but our choice is for life."

Primum non nocere - 'First of all, do not harm or do no harm,' while not actually part of the Hippocratic oath, the phrase does sum it up quite nicely.

2b. Burning the US flag is a protected form of free speech according to the courts, just don't do it in my presence because I may just have to beat the living daylights out of that person. State your opinion, denounce America, that's fine, but if a person's moronic enough to burn a symbol many brave men have given their lives to uphold, a symbol for liberty and freedom, you'll understand why you may get lynched and it will be your own damn fault.

3B. NEA, the dumbing down of American students. Nobody on the right is stating public schools must be dissolved, but there must be competition to strengthen education standards. Vouchers are the solution, a low or middle income parent should not be forced to send their children to a crime-infested school that spits out kids at the end of a grinder that can't read or perform at the same level scholastically with other 1st and 2nd world nations.

Vouchers offer 'School Choice.' The choice to remove their kids from a failing social program to a private institution where the students are taught correctly. With less students attending public schools, the federal money will slow, eventually drying up and systematically causing an implosion of every school unable to meet the strict standards for academic excellence. That is our vision.

4b. Your thinking is limited in scope, everything is relative, even if a missile shield is not plausible, the technological benefits that will result from such an endeavor cannot be overlooked. Research is always compounding, just take a look at the space program and how the world has benefited from their discoveries and the technological advances that continue to this day. Likewise many products are the result from weapons research, common items we have today may have had their origin in military applications.

As for it never becoming feasible, I say this, never discount American ingenuity, where there is a will, America will lead the way.

5b. Nothing damages the self-worth of a man more than handing over money to a man without a work ethic.


Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Mcdojo.com, creator of the Kungfoolss Darwinian Awards, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena

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The Wastrel
19th April 03, 02:58 AM
I wouldn't want to suggest that any of those answers were definitive, or even meant too seriously, rather I was being facetious to some extent in order to raise a chuckle or too. Come one KF, you know how to *Chuckle*!

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Sheol
19th April 03, 03:16 AM
1a. Character and individual ability.

2a. Continued refinement of conventional and nuclear strike capabilities (accuracy over yield). Nullification or mitigation of enemy ballistic missile threat through ABM systems. Improved detection systems, particularly that of ballistic submarines. Continued upgrading and investment in our conventional forces.

3a. Intervention, yes, but let's make sure of who's on our side. I have no interest in replacing one totalitarian regime with another one.

4a. Covert Operations. Yes, but not without 5.

5. Bolstered intelligence services. We rely far too much on 'friendly' intelligence sources. Call me paranoid, but why would we fully trust a foreign country with its own interests when they might conflict with ours? (i.e. Israil and Saudi Arabia)

1b. As per Kungfoolss. There is a limit to your rights... they end where those of another person begins. You CAN make a decision in four to six months. That isn't too much to ask. Right?

2b. Flag burning I can put up with. Sedition, sabotage, and domestic terrorism, I cannot.

3b. The carrot and the stick. Private school vouchers in conjunction with improved federal funding tied to attendance and performance. U.S. taxpayers ONLY! Incidentally, performance is apparently unrelated to cost per student. There is far too much waste in many school systems. They should not be rewarded for fiscal irresponsibility! Schools, both private and public, should meet federal requirements every year to qualify for federal programs.

4b. ABM/TD systems function as a political leverage in addition to tactical approaches. They neutralize or mitigate the value of neo-nuclear powers while ensuring the value of conventional forces. If we had a deployed, functioning ABM/TD system right now, North Korea would not be blustering as much as it does.

5b. Welfare is not a solution. It is part of the problem. Yes, to low-income housing VOUCHERS. No, to low-income housing (lots of problems related to implementation). Yes, to FHA/VA loan program expansion.

Sheol
19th April 03, 03:19 AM
Wastrel:
I'm actually somewhat curious as to where people stand on certain issues.

Kungfoolss
19th April 03, 04:09 AM
2a. Continued refinement of conventional and nuclear strike capabilities (accuracy over yield). Nullification or mitigation of enemy ballistic missile threat through ABM systems. Improved detection systems, particularly that of ballistic submarines. Continued upgrading and investment in our conventional forces.


Sheol, while those issues are pertinent, your concern exists on a global scale, mine is cosmic, catch my drift? ->

http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap950714.html

With a weapon of greater destructive power at our disposal, we can hopefully safeguard the survival of our species and by coupling this with a missile shield technology, the weaponry can be directed inward towards the planet to protect our country and allies or outward shielding us from a global killer.



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Osiris
19th April 03, 04:40 AM
We actually so need affirmative action. Imagine that youre playing monopoly and you spend the first several minutes in sitting at go for some reason. When you finally move, people are taking your money left and right. Since you dont have shit, no one will deal with you. Youre trying to sell people Baltic and theyve already got Boardwalk. YOU LOSE. Thats the situation that the black community is in now. The people that have been controling the contry since its creation are now expanding the capitalist empire on a GLOBAL scale, while blacks cant even maintain control over the commuities in which they live. While individual circumstances may vary, the actions of large groups of people can be predicted and influenced. Clearly the problems that the black community are experiencing are not coincidental. They can be traced back to slavery, neo-slavery and the execution of our black leaders. All of these things have been at least in part government sponsered and the government has benefitted from all. They owe, and the people of America who reap the benefits owe.

"In the prairie fields, the poppies blow
All the crosses, row and row
They are the dead, short days ago
They lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow" - Warcloud

Kungfoolss
19th April 03, 05:07 AM
Additional thoughts-

If we don't consider the possibility of this occurring in the near future, the war of terror, global warming, animal rights, our Flag, the Constitution, our children and all of the things we care about and hold dear to our hearts won't be worth a pile of dog crap baking in the hot sun, because we'll all be dead.

"The difference is that, this time, the development of atomic power has imbued the struggle with a ghostly character; for both parties know and admit that, should the quarrel deteriorate into actual war, mankind is doomed." Albert Einstein 1955

Einstein was wrong, the creation of the atom bomb will in the end, have ensured our salvation to combating this planetary threat, as it has keep the world in relative peace for the last half century. But we can't very well do this by adopting a "hope for the best" peace nik attitude, downsizing our nuclear stockpile and abandoning nuclear weapons research altogether. We must continue the advancing our capability and knowledge of destructive weaponry, our existence and the survival of humanity depends on it.

Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Mcdojo.com, creator of the Kungfoolss Darwinian Awards, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena

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Kungfoolss
19th April 03, 05:37 AM
We actually so need affirmative action. Imagine that youre playing monopoly and you spend the first several minutes in sitting at go for some reason. When you finally move, people are taking your money left and right. Since you dont have shit, no one will deal with you. Youre trying to sell people Baltic and theyve already got Boardwalk. YOU LOSE. Thats the situation that the black community is in now. The people that have been controling the contry since its creation are now expanding the capitalist empire on a GLOBAL scale, while blacks cant even maintain control over the commuities in which they live. While individual circumstances may vary, the actions of large groups of people can be predicted and influenced. Clearly the problems that the black community are experiencing are not coincidental. They can be traced back to slavery, neo-slavery and the execution of our black leaders. All of these things have been at least in part government sponsered and the government has benefitted from all. They owe, and the people of America who reap the benefits owe.


As an American and grandson of an immigrant, I don't owe the "black community" a damn thing so stop playing the race card. Our family never owned a slave and these people were never slaves. If they don't like this country, then they should go back to whatever cesspool their ancestors crawled out of and stay there.

Any problems you perceive, were created by the HUD community members themselves. The wanton murders, drugs, rapes, and robberies committed by blacks aren't the white, asian, or hispanic man's responsibility. Maybe if we brought back capital and corporal punishment and chain gangs for these career criminals, these colored neighborhoods probably wouldn't be the hellholes that they are today.



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Edited by - kungfoolss on April 19 2003 21:48:02

The Wastrel
19th April 03, 10:00 AM
Osiris,
The situation you describe only has anything to do with race because of secondary problems. In case you haven't noticed, poor blacks are NOT benefiting from affirmative action programs.

Sheol,
I am curious about individual policy questions as well, but my opinions on these are complicated and subject to change depending on the available evidence. So please don't take my pithy jokes as platform statements. I prefer not to engage in earnest debates over policy without SUBSTANTIAL preparation.

I have absolutely no problem with the elimination of elective third trimester abortion.

Kungfoolss,
It wasn't our possession of atomic and nuclear weapons that ensured *our* safety; it was the possession, by both sides of retaliatory "second strike" capability.

Proliferation should be aggressively prevented. Aggressively.

Sheol,
The problem with the South Korea example is that we're not just worried about NK using nuclear weapons on us, so any TMD system relevant to the problem would necessarily have to include Japan, South Korea, Thailand and any other regional allies who are threatened. The political obstacles to that are real and significant. As I know you're completely aware.

IMHO, the future of this threat will not be from ballistic missile arsenals, but from less conventional sources and alternate delivery systems.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Osiris
19th April 03, 10:54 AM
Kungfoolss, fuck you. Did you seriously just say colored? Once gain, fuck you. Are you fucking serious? If so then fuck you. I wont even respond to your arguments.

Wastrel, that is correct. However, I think it would be beneficial to have an increase in money throughout the black community at any level.

"In the prairie fields, the poppies blow
All the crosses, row and row
They are the dead, short days ago
They lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow" - Warcloud

The Wastrel
19th April 03, 11:30 AM
Osiris,
You're right. But the questions are from does it come? And how should that appropriately and productively be used? Whenever social divisions between poor and rich are reinforced by divisions by defined ethnic groups you have the potential for serious catastrophe. It gets even worse when religion further divides the groups. Those are what we call "reinforcing cleavages"

In Belgium, French Walloons and Dutch Flemish are divided by language and culture, but a shared religion contributes to some sort of unity. In this case we call that a "cross-cutting cleavage".

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

J Zen
19th April 03, 01:00 PM
When you have a government that approves, tolerates and even systematically support a form of structural discrimination through various racial projects that led to organization of the color line, ghetto formation and housing/job discrimination over the past century then of course you are going to create an environment where the ethnic minorities who were placed there aren't going to do a whole lot of productive activities. When you create a culture of poverty, crimes and other anti-social behaviors are bound to thrive. It's not about excusing the particular actions of those ethnic minorities who are engaged in criminal activities - those will and should always be held accountable for their actions, but to simply diss it out of thin air that the government or the mainstream society played no part or didn't partly contribute to its formation in the first place is just playing the same "blame it all on them" strategy. This form of racial oppression and structural discrimination couldn't have persisted to this day without a combination of coercion and social consent, i.e. we came to accept racial inequality & certain racial characteristics (e.g. blacks = ghetto criminals) as a common sense. The ruling group must somehow elaborate and maintain a popular system of ideas and practice in order to keep alive the structure of dominance as it exists now today. We have simply moved from racial dictatorship of the pre-civil rights era to racial democracy of the modern day.

The Wastrel
19th April 03, 02:15 PM
You're right. The questions remain: Do the existing programs work? What will work without exacerbating racial tension?

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Sheol
19th April 03, 05:17 PM
1. Nuclear proliferation: Unless we are willing to deal with each and every single rogue nation that is developing a nuclear arsenal in the manner of Iraq, nuclear proliferation is inevitable. (The question of North Korea comes to mind.) Should we decide to strike first, strike hard, and remove the North Korean regime, what will China do? China needs North Korea as a fall guy. Without North Korea to deal with, why should the U.S. be circumspect with regards to the question of Taiwan? Without North Korea, China's sphere of influence becomes entirely questionable.

2. Regarding Affirmative Action, other impoverished immigrant minorities have established themselves in the United States without the benefit of it and have become very real economic factors. Further, do wealthy blacks happily spread the wealth in their community? No they do not. No more than Asians do. In order for a community to benefit from the success of its members, there has to be an incentive for those members to invest in the community. There has to be an expected return. Apparently, they don't see that potential in their own community.

Social programs and 'progressive' policies have done nothing but create slums and welfare families. They have simply created a segment of the population that is dependent upon the government and reliant upon the political organizations that "fight for them" (to keep them poor and dependent). The perpetual poor (whether 'black', 'brown', or 'white') are a captive voting block. Most of those that have escaped it have done so due to family, faith, or sheer determination, not merely because of some social program. Is it any wonder that they tend to be unsympathetic to those left behind? Some are generous to be sure, making donations to churches and some community programs, but most simply go on with their lives. A few have chosen to take advantage of the situation to create their own political power base, 'cultivating' it, but never helping most to escape it.

Part of the problem is that the poor tend to become geographically concentrated. The resultant increase in crime and tension is almost unavoidable. Their political representatives prefer that they remain concentrated, "to give them a voice", yet it is actually detrimental to their constituents.

Well, what would work? If you follow the success of Asians and other immigrants, you'll see that they move to where good schools and jobs are. They don't purposely attempt to concentrate themselves for political leverage. If necessary, they will even move to a good school district and commute long distances to work. Many will work two or three low-paying jobs to pay for their children's education. Families pool resources, often buying a house together so that you will have two or even three generations in the same household, just to save money. This has paid off and enabled them to equal or exceed the percentage of 'whites' that go on to college. Further, they believe in personal investment not just in school, but in business. At the last SBA meeting I attended, it was pointed out that Asian-Americans were the #1 segment of the population to own their own businesses, outpacing 'whites'. This is 'despite' the fact that they don't benefit from Affirmative Action policies.

Social policy has not yielded any real benefits. Education reform is the only hope that government can hold out to the children of the perpetually poor, enabling them to seek out better education outside the weak public schools. Everything else is up to them. The individual is what makes the most difference, not public policy.

Osiris
19th April 03, 06:29 PM
"You're right. The questions remain: Do the existing programs work? What will work without exacerbating racial tension?"

That is the question. Ill not attempt to anwer it now. However something does need to be done.

"In the prairie fields, the poppies blow
All the crosses, row and row
They are the dead, short days ago
They lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow" - Warcloud

elipson
19th April 03, 06:47 PM
I believe it was the Fool who said that nuclear weapons prevented war during the past 50 years. Fair enough. Let me ask you this; would you rather have 10 conventional wars every decade, or one nuclear war every century?

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
-Ghandi

Kungfoolss
19th April 03, 08:12 PM
Kungfoolss, fuck you. Did you seriously just say colored? Once gain, fuck you. Are you fucking serious? If so then fuck you. I wont even respond to your arguments.


My my, how we quickly degenerate to the lowest common denominator. Did I say something politically incorrect? Yes, I did say colored, was that offensive? You people change your race classification from decade to decade depending on your mood, I really don't care anymore. Negro, colored, black, african-American, what's next, swahili? It's ridiculous, pick a name and stick to it.

"I recognize the Republican party as the sheet anchor of the COLORED man's political hopes and the ark of his safety." Fredrick Douglass 1888

Oh my, Fredrick Douglass used the 'colored' term, damn that racist bastard. (Laughs)

Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Mcdojo.com, creator of the Kungfoolss Darwinian Awards, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena

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The Wastrel
19th April 03, 08:14 PM
KF,
You know very well "they" didn't pick those terms. And it's also a fallacy to remove things from the historical context. I don't worry too much if someone's grandparents say "colored", but the combination of the argument you were making and the terminology you used is more than just "politically incorrect".

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Osiris
19th April 03, 08:26 PM
""I recognize the Republican party as the sheet anchor of the COLORED man's political hopes and the ark of his safety." Fredrick Douglass 1888"

EIGHTEEN EIGHTY EIGHT!!!!



"In the prairie fields, the poppies blow
All the crosses, row and row
They are the dead, short days ago
They lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow" - Warcloud

Kungfoolss
19th April 03, 08:44 PM
KF,
You know very well "they" didn't pick those terms. And it's also a fallacy to remove things from the historical context. I don't worry too much if someone's grandparents say "colored", but the combination of the argument you were making and the terminology you used is more than just "politically incorrect".


Actually, "they" do, because it sure isn't the white people coming up with those terms (unless they were white liberals). Osiris will just have to develop a thicker hide and stop behaving like a sniveling child.

Agree or disagree, I guess you can't label me as niggardly for espousing my view on the subject.



Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Mcdojo.com, creator of the Kungfoolss Darwinian Awards, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena

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Osiris
19th April 03, 10:01 PM
Just like you didnt decide to be called caucasion or white, blacks dont choose the names either. Colored is still on use to describe colored people worldwide and negro has negative conotations. Black and african american can be used at will.

"In the prairie fields, the poppies blow
All the crosses, row and row
They are the dead, short days ago
They lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow" - Warcloud

Kungfoolss
20th April 03, 12:16 AM
Just like you didnt decide to be called caucasion or white


What makes you assume I'm white or a haole?



Colored is still on use to describe colored people worldwide and negro has negative conotations. Black and african american can be used at will.


I'm not to blame if some colored folk suffer from an inferiority complex. I'll use whatever classification I deem necessary while staying within the standards of decency (something you know very little about). You can take that politically correct tripe and throw it in the trash where it belongs.

In my humble opinion, instead of focusing on imaginary acts of injustice, you should be more concerned with your atrocious behavior here, the spewing of profanity on a public forum only makes your position untenable and shameful.

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Osiris
20th April 03, 01:00 AM
"What makes you assume I'm white or a haole?"

Does it matter? The idea is still the same. You dont choose what other people call you.

"In the prairie fields, the poppies blow
All the crosses, row and row
They are the dead, short days ago
They lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow" - Warcloud

patfromlogan
21st April 03, 08:26 AM
"Social programs and 'progressive' policies have done nothing but create slums and welfare families"

While I think that giving money to unwed mothers in counterproductive, this statement is silly. Anyone have a blanket? All social programs?? School grants and job training and drug rehab and school lunches and, oh what the hell, let the poor pull themselves up by their rotten bootstraps and if they don't...fuck 'em.

A good friend of mine taught for five years in a ghetto college and he said that the students there (the small minority who had managed to get themselves to that level) had bullshit detectors a mile long. He said that the only creative possibility left to the majority was to have babies; all else was taken away or crushed.

Affirmative action? OK, Kungfools, let's assume instead of an immigrant Asian community in Hawaii, with strong family values, religious associations, fraternal associations, martial art groups and lots of opportunities, let's say your ancestors were slaves that didn't speak the same language and were "bred" by their owners to create genetically superior plantation workers. The owners were afraid of revolt and kept only slaves together that couldn't speak the same language. They were whipped and beaten and raped and had their children sold. After they were granted freedom, any who spoke out were castrated and lynched. The state had laws to keep your ancestors illiterate, disenfranchised (no vote), isolated economically, and socially (the miscegenation laws in Utah (a slave territory), for instance, were struck down in 1961-yes, 1961. They couldn't go to college, their schools were horrid (separate but equal anyone?), they weren't allowed in unions, they were denied access to financing, they were part of a society that labeled them lazy/ good for nothing/ stupid/ ugly/ smelly /animalistic/ rapist/ sluts/ dirty/ trash. They were pawns for economic and political institutions (hey you white trash, you ain't got it so bad, at least you're better off than the niggers) and consistently denied opportunities and avenues to success. But, hey, affirmative action is not needed...... We are all created equal and in capatalism, hard work leads to success!

Hey, I'm a local boy, from Hawaii and racism sucks. Tutu has no haole grandchildren. When I brought my wife home, my sister in law said how cool it was that I had married a local girl. That my wife was from China escaped her "local" consciousness, because she LOOKED like a local and because I LOOK like a haole, I'll never be considered local. That I love Hawaii, the music, the culture, the land, worked on luaus and was taught the Hawaiian language by a friend's tutu wahine in my youth, doesn't matter, because I look like a haole.

Get fucking real.

Racism sucks and it doesn't matter if it's in Korean TKD tournaments, Kyokushinkai (look who gets "beat up" in all the pictures in Oyama's This is Karate), denied housing for whites in Tokyo, denied jobs in Hilo unless you have a "local style" last name, or anywhere or anything else. The historic fact is that there has been enormous damage done, justified by racism. Yes the German corporations should pay the exslaves, yes the Japanese should pay the ex sex slaves of Korea and China, and yes we should extend a break to the ex slaves of America.


>>>Always walk on a bright, wide road. If you choose to live with your right posture, you don't have to go on a dark road or a malodorous place. Oyama

The Wastrel
21st April 03, 08:54 AM
Good thing you touched on the Asian 'model minority' myth there Pat. It sickens me to see specious comparisons between the Asian immigrant experience and the black experience. There are simple structural reasons for the difference. It's not just individual effort.

Osiris: Who are those guys?
Blade: Kyokushin + Muay Thai hybrid...
Osiris: Not everything that resembles muay thai is muay thai.
Blade: No, but this IS just that. They put them together.
Osiris: Wow, youre right.

Kungfoolss
22nd April 03, 10:53 PM
Affirmative action? OK, Kungfools, let's assume instead of an immigrant Asian community in Hawaii, with strong family values, religious associations, fraternal associations, martial art groups and lots of opportunities, let's say your ancestors were slaves that didn't speak the same language and were "bred" by their owners to create genetically superior plantation workers. The owners were afraid of revolt and kept only slaves together that couldn't speak the same language. They were whipped and beaten and raped and had their children sold. After they were granted freedom, any who spoke out were castrated and lynched. The state had laws to keep your ancestors illiterate, disenfranchised (no vote), isolated economically, and socially (the miscegenation laws in Utah (a slave territory), for instance, were struck down in 1961-yes, 1961. They couldn't go to college, their schools were horrid (separate but equal anyone?), they weren't allowed in unions, they were denied access to financing, they were part of a society that labeled them lazy/ good for nothing/ stupid/ ugly/ smelly /animalistic/ rapist/ sluts/ dirty/ trash. They were pawns for economic and political institutions (hey you white trash, you ain't got it so bad, at least you're better off than the niggers)


I love how your casual use of a racial slur didn't elicit a single response from the pharisaic Osiris. (Shaking head smirking)



and consistently denied opportunities and avenues to success. But, hey, affirmative action is not needed...... We are all created equal and in capatalism, hard work leads to success!

Hey, I'm a local boy, from Hawaii and racism sucks. Tutu has no haole grandchildren. When I brought my wife home, my sister in law said how cool it was that I had married a local girl. That my wife was from China escaped her "local" consciousness, because she LOOKED like a local and because I LOOK like a haole, I'll never be considered local. That I love Hawaii, the music, the culture, the land, worked on luaus and was taught the Hawaiian language by a friend's tutu wahine in my youth, doesn't matter, because I look like a haole.

Get fucking real.


Please don't restrain yourself, tell us how many more ways can you state your hatred for America?

Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Mcdojo.com, creator of the Kungfoolss Darwinian Awards, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena

http://forums.delphiforums.com/testing12345703/start

PizDoff
22nd April 03, 11:26 PM
a little off thread topic are we?
i'll not get involved....

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.

http://www.thaing.net/technique.htm
Thanks to Blade Windu for link. Click on link and wait for codec install prompt. Then install and watch. Nasty fights.

Osiris
23rd April 03, 01:33 AM
"I love how your casual use of a racial slur didn't elicit a single response from the pharisaic Osiris."

Different context. And it was in quotations.

"In the prairie fields, the poppies blow
All the crosses, row and row
They are the dead, short days ago
They lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow" - Warcloud

Kungfoolss
23rd April 03, 01:59 AM
Different context. And it was in quotations.



I see, ...and that makes it an appropriate statement then. Nice spin...sic... (Serious eye rollage)

Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Mcdojo.com, creator of the Kungfoolss Darwinian Awards, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena

http://forums.delphiforums.com/testing12345703/start

Greese
23rd April 03, 02:20 AM
We actually so need affirmative action. Imagine that youre playing monopoly and you spend the first several minutes in sitting at go for some reason. When you finally move, people are taking your money left and right. Since you dont have shit, no one will deal with you. Youre trying to sell people Baltic and theyve already got Boardwalk. YOU LOSE. Thats the situation that the black community is in now. The people that have been controling the contry since its creation are now expanding the capitalist empire on a GLOBAL scale, while blacks cant even maintain control over the commuities in which they live. While individual circumstances may vary, the actions of large groups of people can be predicted and influenced. Clearly the problems that the black community are experiencing are not coincidental. They can be traced back to slavery, neo-slavery and the execution of our black leaders. All of these things have been at least in part government sponsered and the government has benefitted from all. They owe, and the people of America who reap the benefits owe.

"In the prairie fields, the poppies blow
All the crosses, row and row
They are the dead, short days ago
They lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow" - Warcloud



Cool, if want to be for quota's, so do I. My race is historically underepresented in athletics. We need a porportional number of whites, blacks, indians, asians, etc in relation to the community. What? The white guys can't play basketball as well as the black guys? Who cares...we need to make it fair. Same should be done with college athletic scholarships. If we focus race in for scholastic scholarships, than we need to do the same for athletics.

Osiris
23rd April 03, 03:16 AM
"I see, ...and that makes it an appropriate statement then. Nice spin...sic... (Serious eye rollage)"

Yep. He was saying that someone had said that to him. Not his words.

Greese, life isnt sports. People are DYING because of the condition of the black community. This shit is real.


"In the prairie fields, the poppies blow
All the crosses, row and row
They are the dead, short days ago
They lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow" - Warcloud

patfromlogan
23rd April 03, 09:11 AM
Kungfools is not logical.

>>>Always walk on a bright, wide road. If you choose to live with your right posture, you don't have to go on a dark road or a malodorous place. Oyama

Greese
23rd April 03, 01:42 PM
"I see, ...and that makes it an appropriate statement then. Nice spin...sic... (Serious eye rollage)"

Yep. He was saying that someone had said that to him. Not his words.

Greese, life isnt sports. People are DYING because of the condition of the black community. This shit is real.


"In the prairie fields, the poppies blow
All the crosses, row and row
They are the dead, short days ago
They lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow" - Warcloud



I understand that. However, the people that are dying in the community are not the ones being helped by preferential educational treatment. The jobs that they can get in those bad areas aren't going to make them anymore money to let them get ahead. All the affirmative action in the world won't fix that. Furthermore, even if they could get a shot at the good jobs, they wouldn't be able to perform due to a low academic level, which is in part the fault of the government and in part the fault of the black community. Poor blacks do not put the emphasis on education that other groups do. However, that is a problem in all poor communities. Affirmative action will not solve that either.

J Zen
23rd April 03, 02:28 PM
---Kungfools is not logical.---

Nah, I actually think he's being very careful with how he approach the debate, i.e. he makes some careful calculated move. He's trying to avoid debating the issue head on by throwing out inflammatory comments and snide remark while offering no substance in his comments in order to degenerate the debate into a flamefest. I think he was trying to sound like a racist for a good reason. That way people like Osiris who takes the issue personally and often emotionally will burst out in anger and flame him, which he will respond by short snide remarks or witty insults, making him look like the one in control while in fact it's a tactic of diversion and disguising his incompetence or rather, "lack of balls" to engage in a constructive debate. If you look at a lot of his past posts where any oppositional views began to discredit or threaten his own, he does this just about every time - keeping communication to the minimum, trying to be vague or staying ambiguous making sure not to spew anything that could be used against him and if worst comes to worst, distract and redirect the flow of debate to another direction while trying to attribute various negative traits to his opponent, painting the image of incompetence or irrationality on his opponents' part. Notice how he tries to turn this into an anti-liberal & anti-America issue by making Osiris looks like one. It's very amusing to observe his intellectual dishonesty, deceptive strategy and clever manipulation of emotion to cover up his own flaws. He's a true propaganda machine.

Hint to Osiris:
You are playing his game by trying to get all emotional and angry. I suggest you best keep your cool and debate rationally. I wouldn't be surprised if KFss is just roleplaying a seemingly racist just to further his own agenda and cover his own ass.

patfromlogan
23rd April 03, 03:50 PM
JZen, wow, what a comment. Now I just kinda feel sorry for Kungfools. Boyd has competition for the Mcdojo Pulitzer prize.


and I was giving an example of the southern ruling class's bullshit that helped control the southern white poor "you may be shit, but you are better than them."


The history of the miscegenation laws is interesting. They brought in slaves and indentured whites and other whites started intermarrying, so before 1700 in was criminal. Didn't want to loose the legal ownership. That racism is institutionalized is obvious on many fronts. Fronts is by the way a term coined in WW1, I could go on for hours.........

There are actually some very good social/economic history studies done of the wiping out of the southern farmers and the establishment of tenant farms and systems of perpetual debt relations. The economy being tied to banking/shipping/agricultural firms based in New York and London.


>>>Always walk on a bright, wide road. If you choose to live with your right posture, you don't have to go on a dark road or a malodorous place. Oyama

patfromlogan
20th December 08, 11:49 AM
Did we miss anything in this thread?

Cullion
20th December 08, 12:01 PM
The dimwitted jingoistic responses at the beginning of this thread made me laugh heartily.

elipson
20th December 08, 12:55 PM
There are some classic names on this thread. To bad some of them aren't around anymore.

Aphid Jones
20th December 08, 01:03 PM
The dimwitted jingoistic responses at the beginning of this thread made me laugh heartily.
I started giving out negative varrots like a disease before I looked at the date on the thread.

TM
20th December 08, 02:31 PM
Wasting your time Pat. These kiddies drank the kool-aide.

Cullion
20th December 08, 02:44 PM
I wonder what they think now? Would they admit they were wrong? that they'd been taken in by lies? or would they still defend it? or take the foolish middle ground about 'intelligence at the time' ?

HappyOldGuy
20th December 08, 02:49 PM
I would note that neither the apologists nor pat turned out to be right.* Obviously, we all know what a nightmare it has been (and will continue to be) for the Iraqi people. But at the same time, none of those neo colonial oil grabs materialized either.



*Because that's the sort of thing I like to note.

danno
21st December 08, 07:29 AM
this got me reading another old thread.


The term 'quagmire' was laughed at 1 month into this 'conflict'. Now people have quietly resigned themselves to accepting the reality of the situation. Quagmire indeed.

I've already been able to say, I TOLD YOU SO quit a bit. But I'll let this 'situation' play out for another few years before I really start laughing and pointing fingers.

http://www.sociocide.com/forums/showpost.php?p=686322&postcount=38

Cullion
21st December 08, 07:42 AM
I would note that neither the apologists nor pat turned out to be right.* Obviously, we all know what a nightmare it has been (and will continue to be) for the Iraqi people. But at the same time, none of those neo colonial oil grabs materialized either.

I think they did.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/oil-giants-return-to-iraq-851036.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6621523/

It's just not going into the US' public treasury. This is corporatism at it's finest. Socialise the risks and costs (your armed forces personel take the risk, the costs paid by the taxpayer), the profits are privatised. And as we saw earlier on in this thread, show people some awesome military stuff on Fox and they'll whoop and cheer for it to happen.

Iraq is also a convenient staging post for an attack on Iran. There's a larger strategy at work here.

Truculent Sheep
21st December 08, 09:23 AM
I started giving out negative varrots like a disease before I looked at the date on the thread.

It seems like an age ago, when you think about it.

Cullion
21st December 08, 09:46 AM
You were one of the people who thought it was a good idea, weren't you?

Truculent Sheep
21st December 08, 11:16 AM
I thought Hussein was a bastard and the Iraqis needed freedom, and that war was probably the only way to deal with this. But I didn't approve of the 2003 invasion - it wasn't the right time, the motives were vague, the strategy was crap and the ensuing chaos matched my worst fears about what happened.

Put simply: You don't use a chainsaw to do microsurgery.

If Iraq more or less makes it out of the mess then it will be perhaps more than anyone on either side of the debate deserve. The Iraqi people do deserve this break though. So I'll be happy if it does turn out well.

Cullion
21st December 08, 12:16 PM
What did you hate about Hussein, particularly? Relative to the world's other dictators and what he's been replaced with?

HappyOldGuy
21st December 08, 01:48 PM
I think they did.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/oil-giants-return-to-iraq-851036.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6621523/

It's just not going into the US' public treasury. This is corporatism at it's finest. Socialise the risks and costs (your armed forces personel take the risk, the costs paid by the taxpayer), the profits are privatised. And as we saw earlier on in this thread, show people some awesome military stuff on Fox and they'll whoop and cheer for it to happen.

Iraq is also a convenient staging post for an attack on Iran. There's a larger strategy at work here.

Yes, american oil companies are buying Iraqi oil. Guess what, they were also buying it under saddam. And in fact we were buying a bigger percentage under the oil for food program than we are now.

Iraqs oil reserves are still nationalized.
Iraq is still not signing co development deals, only technology service agreements.
The oil sharing law is still not approved, and has been through multiple revisions, each one more hostile to western oil company interests.
The plans to use iraqi oil profits for reimbursing the US are dead.
The US has not been signing independent deals with the kurdish government the way many other countries have been.

And oh yeah, the new status of forces agreement makes it pretty much impossibleto use Iraq as a staging area against Iran.

Truculent Sheep
21st December 08, 03:45 PM
What did you hate about Hussein, particularly? Relative to the world's other dictators and what he's been replaced with?

Strawman argument. Try harder.

Cullion
21st December 08, 06:39 PM
It's honestly not an argument, it's a question. We had to spend a lot of money to take out this particular dictator, and a lot of people got injured. If you feel that any dictator was worth taking out, and are happy that this one in particular happened to get toppled, that's fine. I'm asking if you think he was worse and deserved special attention.

Cullion
21st December 08, 06:44 PM
Yes, american oil companies are buying Iraqi oil. Guess what, they were also buying it under saddam.

Western companies weren't drilling for it etc.. under Saddam. He drove the oil majors out of the country.



And in fact we were buying a bigger percentage under the oil for food program than we are now.


Iraqs oil reserves are still nationalized.
Iraq is still not signing co development deals, only technology service agreements.

They didn't have those service agreements before, and they aren't small potatoes.



The oil sharing law is still not approved, and has been through multiple revisions, each one more hostile to western oil company interests.

Prediction: They'll keep revising until they get the 'right' answer.



The plans to use iraqi oil profits for reimbursing the US are dead.

I already pointed out that nobody gives a shit about the US public treasury and why.



The US has not been signing independent deals with the kurdish government the way many other countries have been.

You're still caught up in the idea that this is about nation-states filling their public treasuries. Oil Majors are not components of nation states.



And oh yeah, the new status of forces agreement makes it pretty much impossibleto use Iraq as a staging area against Iran.

You've built 14 substantial bases there. Who will enforce this 'status of forces' agreement if the US decides it wants to use them to 'defend itself against Iranian aggression' ?

HappyOldGuy
21st December 08, 08:38 PM
They didn't have those service agreements before, and they aren't small potatoes.

No, this is the key bit you're getting wrong. These technical service agreements are exactly the same kind of agreements that they have always had. Those forces who wanted access to iraqi oil wanted a different type, a production sharing agreement that hasn't happened.

http://www.zawya.com/printstory.cfm?storyid=v51n10-1TS02&l=143200080310

Truculent Sheep
21st December 08, 08:40 PM
It's honestly not an argument, it's a question. We had to spend a lot of money to take out this particular dictator, and a lot of people got injured. If you feel that any dictator was worth taking out, and are happy that this one in particular happened to get toppled, that's fine. I'm asking if you think he was worse and deserved special attention.

Strawman.

Cullion
22nd December 08, 05:14 AM
How is it a strawman? I'm asking a question, not making a proposition.

danno
22nd December 08, 05:26 AM
strawquestion.

Cullion
22nd December 08, 05:38 AM
It's not a hard question. a) I didn't think he was especially bad, but I'm glad a dictator was toppled. We don't have the resources to take them all out at once b) I thought he was especially bad, this is why.. c) none of the above, let me explain..

Truculent Sheep
22nd December 08, 05:50 AM
It's not a hard question. a) I didn't think he was especially bad, but I'm glad a dictator was toppled. We don't have the resources to take them all out at once b) I thought he was especially bad, this is why.. c) none of the above, let me explain..

But you see, we've played this game before. You keep asking questions then pretending you were asking something else, putting words in my mouth and slipping in subtle ad hominems en route and generally trying to spite me in that annoyingly indirect way we British like to do things.

And guess what? I'm not playing. I can get that sort of shit on UK forums: I come here to actually get a decent argument out of someone. Not to be reminded how much I fucking hate my country's web users.

Cullion
22nd December 08, 06:31 AM
You want a decent debate, then just be direct. And stop being so touchy.

Truculent Sheep
22nd December 08, 09:50 AM
You want a decent debate, then just be direct. And stop being so touchy.

And here we go again. Thank God for the ignore function...

EuropIan
22nd December 08, 11:29 AM
But you see, we've played this game before. You keep asking questions then pretending you were asking something else, putting words in my mouth and slipping in subtle ad hominems en route and generally trying to spite me in that annoyingly indirect way we British like to do things.

And guess what? I'm not playing. I can get that sort of shit on UK forums: I come here to actually get a decent argument out of someone. Not to be reminded how much I fucking hate my country's web users.


What?

This is interesting.

GuiltySpark
22nd December 08, 11:39 AM
I wonder if God can make an IPOD so loud that even He can't hear himself.

HappyOldGuy
22nd December 08, 11:40 AM
And here we go again. Thank God for the ignore function...

There may very easily be context to this I'm missing, and god knows I've had my pissy moments on the net, but this seems way out of proportion?

Cullion is wrong about almost everything, but he's an entertaining and mostly honest debater.

Cullion
22nd December 08, 11:53 AM
He thinks demonstrating holes in his arguments are personal attacks when addressing subjects where he knows lots of people might disagree with him.

The last time we touched on this subject it ended in him saying 'Tai Chi fag lol', me pointing out he never trained in anything at all and for him to come and throw down.

Yeah, really.

Truculent Sheep
22nd December 08, 03:38 PM
He thinks demonstrating holes in his arguments are personal attacks when addressing subjects where he knows lots of people might disagree with him.

No. I just know a wind-up when I see one. I'll argue a point, but that's not what you're trying to do.


The last time we touched on this subject it ended in him saying 'Tai Chi fag lol', me pointing out he never trained in anything at all and for him to come and throw down.

Yeah, really.

Hardly what actually happened, and you know it. Feel free to tell bloody lies and in doing so demonstrate my point. Not sure where I actually slagged off Tai Chi either. You really are a twat.

Cullion
22nd December 08, 03:50 PM
http://downlode.org/Creative/Writing/Notebook/Illustrations/itsatrap.jpg


Hardly what actually happened, and you know it. Feel free to tell bloody lies and in doing so demonstrate my point. Not sure where I actually slagged off Tai Chi either.

Yes, you did indeed break out the 'but you do tai chi, lol' which was followed by me pointing out you had nothing clever to say about it when I invited you to the Oxford Throwdown to show you why judo atemi was a bad idea.

We then had a long, painful discussion about why you weren't training because you were working on your fitness before going to class.

It doesn't matter. Why not try just debating instead of being paranoid about people making fun of you ?

HappyOldGuy
22nd December 08, 04:11 PM
why judo atemi was a bad idea.

I take it back. It is slightly possible that Cullion might have actually been right about something. Although I'm sure he screwed it up by insisting that Kung Fu has better throws too.

(and this is from someone who rides judo's nuts like a bronc buster)

Truculent Sheep
22nd December 08, 04:13 PM
Yes, you did indeed break out the 'but you do tai chi, lol' which was followed by me pointing out you had nothing clever to say about it when I invited you to the Oxford Throwdown to show you why judo atemi was a bad idea.

I was taking the piss out of you, rather than your art, as well you know. If you'd have been doing BJJ, I'd have made a joke about ringworm; if it was Judo, I'd have made references to pyjamas; if it was Savate, unitards etc. The rest was you being opportunistic regarding the fact that I'm not training and so wouldn't be able to attend. Again, I have made it clear from the start that I am not training and it will be some time before I can.


We then had a long, painful discussion about why you weren't training because you were working on your fitness before going to class.

It was painful because you were involved and because you were trying to twist the facts to your advantage. All you demonstrated there was your intent in provoking an argument.


It doesn't matter. Why not try just debating instead of being paranoid about people making fun of you ?

I debate with people who want a debate. Not Trolls like you.

EuropIan
22nd December 08, 04:14 PM
no he would claim to have the same throws. Learn your fallacies, duh!

Truculent Sheep
22nd December 08, 04:14 PM
I take it back. It is slightly possible that Cullion might have actually been right about something. Although I'm sure he screwed it up by insisting that Kung Fu has better throws too.

(and this is from someone who rides judo's nuts like a bronc buster)

I made a point that Judo atemi might be a good way for people to explore striking before they began proper training. Shitbag claimed I was actually advocating this as an effective form of striking.

Cullion
22nd December 08, 04:33 PM
No, I offered to show you why it was ineffective and wouldn't be a helpful way to start. There were lots of other people on the thread explaining the same thing to you.

You could just get to the point and debate. You're not being trolled here.

Matsufubu
23rd December 08, 07:11 AM
Calm down chaps, or we'll have to send in the troops to depose one of you and restore freedom.

Somebody in Zimbabwe should 'find' oil. We'd be over there in a shot.

EuropIan
23rd December 08, 07:15 AM
Shooting blacks is passé, Mat.

Truculent Sheep
23rd December 08, 07:39 AM
No, I offered to show you why it was ineffective and wouldn't be a helpful way to start. There were lots of other people on the thread explaining the same thing to you.

Who were also misunderstanding what I was trying to say. Again, you're just trying to provoke me. Plus you refuse to understand what I really meant, so stop trying to make what I said something I didn't.


You could just get to the point and debate. You're not being trolled here.

Could have fooled me. I'll debate with someone who wants to debate, not you.

Cullion
23rd December 08, 09:52 AM
I do actually want to debate. It was an honest question to somebody who initially supported the war. I was curious how you felt about it all now. I could picture somebody still thinking it was a good idea just to see a dictator overthrown, even if there wasn't the political will or resources available to overthrow all desposts.

I don't think the Iraqis are better off than they were yet, but maybe they will be one day.

This is what I wanted to debate about.

You do get angry for no obvious reason sometimes.