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The Wastrel
28th March 03, 11:24 AM
http://www.buzzflash.com/editorial/2002/08/13_Who.html

http://www.democrats.com/display.cfm?id=166

http://www.awolbush.com/

http://www.awolbush.com/whoserved.html

http://www.houstonpress.com/issues/1999-01-07/columns2.html/1/index.html (first couple of paragraphs)

http://www.motherjones.com/news/outfront/2003/02/ma_217_01.html


George W. Bush on sacrifice:
"I've been to war. I've raised twins. If I
had a choice, I'd rather go to war."
Houston Chronicle, January 2002

Eh? Been to war? I don't think it's a necessary qualification for a political leader to have served in the military. But come on! Anyone remember the "best and the brightest"? I know Justme does. I wonder how many males of eligible age who are related to the current admin are serving. Dubya's lucky he had daughters.




**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Balloonknot
28th March 03, 11:28 AM
Wastrel, can you give it a break now. Go take your anti-war, lefty liberalism back to your pot dealers house.

The Wastrel
28th March 03, 11:43 AM
BK, I'm not anti-war. When are you going to get this through your head? I was a soldier. And I have NEVER voted for a Democrat. Though I probably would have been forced to in 2000, if I hadn't been robbed of my vote. I WAS A SOLDIER FOR FUCK'S SAKE.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Edited by - The Wastrel on March 28 2003 10:44:02

Balloonknot
28th March 03, 11:47 AM
Ok, Ok my bad. To tell you the truth.... I never read your posts (no offense) but thier just too damn long (I'm at work you see). How can you be against BUSH? He's the only prez we've had in many, many years who's got some ballsack!!! Why???

The Wastrel
28th March 03, 12:13 PM
He's doesn't have balls. He's using everybody else's balls.

Iraq is an important problem, and I want it dealt with, but you must understand that one cannot afford to be cavalier about it. I think that Cheney, Rumsfeld, Perle (resigned in disgrace) ignore the very real complications of this war. Rumsfeld especially has treated this like an easy thing, and has even gone so far as to be insulting towards Tony Blair. Read some of his earlier statements. And the guy wanted like 100,000 fewer soldiers in Iraq. AND he essentialy sabotaged Powell's diplomatic efforts. There was no reason to lose Russia and France...well maybe France couldn't be saved.

In this administration I like Colin Powell, Condi Rice, and even Paul Wolfowitz for their brains and pragmatism (though pragmatism may not apply to Wolfie).

You seem to be unaware of the very real disputes that have gone on within the admin over how this should be handled. Some of these have almost resulted in resignations of senior administration officials and others have been surprisingly public.

Simply put, I think Bush is witless and generally ignorant but has some moral sentiment. He is basically a tool for the Cheney-Rumsfeld-Wolfowitz-Perle security agenda. Those guys have been working on this for decades. It didn't come from him. Read this week's New Yorker for a pretty good brief on the genesis of current Iraq policy. Add Karl Rove to the mix and it starts to stink. This isn't about one man.

And I think that the question of who dies/serves in America's wars is a serious one. If Clinton's high draft number and Kerry's record can be used to attack their legitimacy then what about the Chickenhawks? I think that's far more serious.

My mother has two sons who served in active duty in the enlisted corps. One (me) is now in inactive ready reserves, and another (younger brother) was about to be deployed to Iraq when he came down with appendicitis. His turn is coming. We're an educated upper middle class family. Our politics are moderate and mixed. Neither I nor my brother NEEDED to enlist in order to escape poverty or obtain money for college. How does our mother feel about the war? Nervous and cautious support. How does she feel about an American political establishment that tolerates draft/war-dodging elites? Livid outrage.

I make mention of mothers and parents because these, along with children and wives, are the ones who pay the consequences of the war. Bush does not. PERIOD. PERIOD. PERIOD. THERE IS NO DEBATING THIS.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Balloonknot
28th March 03, 12:25 PM
That's besides the point. Bush is the commander and he pulls the trigger. So he didn't orchestrate it, so what? Bush is the figure head responsible so he gets the credit. The bottom line is We need to take them out to reduce or eliminate any further threats to the US. Sadam is a madman, he must die! Then Korea!

Justme
28th March 03, 12:32 PM
I don't pretend to know what is in Bush's heart. I think, from what I see, his intent is good. I think he is trying to handle a very difficult prolbem. As far as who is there and who is not, I only know I am not and wish I could be. I ask myself, would I want my son to go? Hmmmm.... My intent would be to help rid the world of a very bad regime,and I think he would be helping to do that. God. It would be hard to do that. Curious thing for me, when I was in service 74 to 78 all E-5's and above I knew were combat vets. They all served in Vietnam. All I talked directly with felt they went to Nam to help the Vietnamese people. They didn't go for oil. They didn't go for conquering land. They went to help the people. Our Government screwed that up. They didn't have the intent to help the people. I think, geez I hope, Bush really means he wants to prevent attacks on us, and want to help liberate a people. Thats what I want.



Edited by - Justme on March 28 2003 11:34:50

Justme
28th March 03, 12:38 PM
Just heard a report British troops had to rush into to take out Iragi troops firing on women and children trying to flee across a bridge. They rushed into to stop it!!! God Bless the Brits. Thats what this is about!! Our people are generally good people. I believe this. I try to follow this. I am religious. I believe God wants us to help each other. God wants us to stand up to evil. Remember, Saddam had the oppotunity to leave on his own. He chose this.

The Wastrel
28th March 03, 12:46 PM
I'm sorry BK. What's beside the point? The divisions within the admin? Sure, maybe. I'm just responding to your general contention that disagreement is treason, by noting how much division within an admin is what creates decisions.

My point here is simply that he and Cheney and many of the Chickenhawks have contemptible service records, and no one seems to care. I do.

Justme,
I agree. If Hussein had the interests of Iraqis to deal with, he would have simply left. And yes, thank god for the Brits. (My mother is a UK national. Forgot to mention that.)

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Balloonknot
28th March 03, 12:48 PM
Justme: nicely put.

Wastrel: IMHO, if people are protesting they are comitting an act of sedition, title 9 (i think it is).

The Wastrel
28th March 03, 12:54 PM
No, they're not. Read the relevant Supreme Court decisions. If political speech isn't protected then WTF is the point? Are we then free to talk about the weather? Pop music?

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Dibble
28th March 03, 01:17 PM
W, if you don't mind sharing, what motivated you to join the military in the first place?

"Sometimes it all comes together,But sometimes you're gonna lose it all." -MCC

The Wastrel
28th March 03, 01:27 PM
Ambition, hunger for adventure, concern for responsible citizenship, care for the cultivation of character. I have been intent on employment in diplomacy or intel since my first year of college. In my second year I decided that the American university was essentially a lame job factory that turned out hordes of ignorant people who were persuaded they knew everything about everything, and decided I didn't want that to be me. I have a flair for languages so I went into MI, studied Korean at DLI, North Korea elsewhere, did a year and a half at the 2 ID and then finished my active duty responsibility. Back at university, I realize that it hasn't changed, but that it is still necessary to complete, and my ambitions haven't really changed either. It's funny, in my program a lot of people have the same ambitions and they look at my military service as some kind of dead-zone, and that now that I'm out I can "finally get an education." LOL. They're morons. A couple of weeks back a CIA recruiter told one of them that they were "hopelessly non-competitive" with other applicants. Guess who isn't.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Dibble
28th March 03, 01:53 PM
If it's any consolation, all graduates learn pretty quick that life is a *lot* different outside the Ivory Towers.

"Sometimes it all comes together,But sometimes you're gonna lose it all." -MCC

CrimsonTiger
28th March 03, 01:57 PM
The Wastrel,

Not that this is comparable, but something I've noticed recently: many people have a very formulaic idea about how life "should" go. I took almost 3 years to find a job I finally enjoy. My family and friends insist that time was "wasted". During that time I:

1) Worked several jobs, ensuring I wasn't a burden to family or friends financially, but exploring my options as to what made me happy in a career.

2) Trained in the martial arts, including taking a year to dedicate myself to my Sensei and my training, 12 hours a day, 6-7 days a week. (not nearly as cheesy as it sounds) I learned more in this time about myself, others and how to carry myself as a person and a man than in 24 years beforehand...also realizing I wasted a lot of time and opportunity in University.

3) Sorted out my personal emotional demons in a way that most people will never achieve. Figured out where I am, where I want to be, how to get there and what type of person I want as my companion for the journey.

The job I work at now pays 30% LESS than anything I've had before...I guarantee you within a year I'll be making more than many two-income couples, plus I'll have the chance to travel from coast to coast.

All because I took the road less travelled. (Up until I was 24 it was always the "safe" way for me...very conservative family).

I stand in awe of the decisions and sacrifices you and some of our other military friends have made. I actually envy your decisions...if I could go back to just after high school, I'd change SO much of my life. I'm not romanticizing any experiences in the military, not everyone can take that route. It's the decisiveness, discipline, dedication, focus that comes with it...the direction and doors that it opens for your options.

Wow.

Don't ever stop contributing here. I know you (and a few others) sometimes are frustrated...but there are those of us who do appreciate your rants and your input.

Thank you.

Regards,
CrimsonTiger

"You kicked me in the HEAD! You NEVER throw kicks! How'd you do that? Wires?!" - Sempai Phil (my last sparring partner)

Justme
28th March 03, 02:06 PM
", did a year and a half at the 2 ID "

When I was active duty, I was with the "Old Guard" in Washington DC. Now many think the unit is just for show, but we had guys (many with combat experience) from all over the Army. Many from the 82nd and 101st. However, the toughest guys I met came from 2nd Division.

The Wastrel
28th March 03, 02:15 PM
However, the toughest guys I met came from 2nd Division.

LOL. Thanks, but maybe you should ask Dochter about that. I'm tenacious, and well-intentioned...and sometimes razor-sharp, but tough?



**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Justme
28th March 03, 02:17 PM
I was speaking of the infantry guys (just kidding).

The Wastrel
28th March 03, 02:24 PM
CrimsonTiger,
I wouldn't trade it for anything. I appreciate your observations on the alternate routes people take to life. For years people looked at me as a bit aimless (nickname: Wastrel). I left high school in my sophomore year with permission from the school district to start attending college. I abandoned that, moved to Seattle (Hi Dibble!) and then came back after a year to go back to school. Dicked around (quite literally) got preoccupied with women, got serious again. Then enlisted. I look at some of my cousins and classmates and it's hilarious. Guys I went to school with are fat and soft, pathetic, no trace of the wolf left in them. I think that more than anything the acquisition of wisdom, or maybe just sense, is contingent on the variety of experience.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

The Wastrel
28th March 03, 02:26 PM
I was speaking of the infantry guys (just kidding).

LOL. I posted a link to an open source Tacs-Op that describes my MOS. Funny thing is 2nd Inf Brigade commander thought we WERE 11Bs, or scouts at least.



**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Justme
28th March 03, 02:29 PM
I always heard you had to be very careful because all the old mind fields had shifted, and the maps were no longer good. At least that was one of many hazards.

The Wastrel
28th March 03, 02:32 PM
Thread for my Tacs-Op is something like Military links...or something.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

PizDoff
28th March 03, 06:54 PM
........i had some monkey pics with a comparision to Bush.....

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed later.

Vapour
30th March 03, 05:30 PM
To be honest, I think McCaine made the best president. George Bush suck.

Nihilanthic
30th March 03, 08:20 PM
McCaine would have ruined MMA, and anything non-boxing. He could have even done stuff to Judo and straight JJ competitions!

<Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
<John> I'd have to smack you sometime...

The Wastrel
30th March 03, 09:13 PM
As president?! He has more law-making power as a Senator!

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

elipson
30th March 03, 11:11 PM
I will always dislike McCain for what he did to MMA, but I think he'd be a better pres than Dubya. The states would still be at war, but they would prolly have more support; Bush is too gung-ho and trigger happy.
That, is what pissed a lot of ppl off.

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
-Ghandi

PizDoff
31st March 03, 02:49 PM
Phrost for President!!!

--
Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed later.