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The Wastrel
21st March 03, 01:45 AM
I was part of the anti-war left, though I never would have been caught at one of those "American Capitalism is Enslaving the Beautiful Good People of the Third World" rallies. And even now I am more and more tired of the radical posturing. The right is peppered with it's wide-eyed lunatics-Ann Coulter, Dinesh D'Souza, Rush Limbaugh, Thomas Sowell, etc. But the left has whole armies of these people with their chic Che Guevara t-shirts and their $800 bongo drums. Which reminds me...
This is a personal anecdote and entirely tangential:

(One time while I was living in Seattle a guitar-playing hippie castigated me for not giving him money for the next Grateful Dead concert. He said, "You know your parents drive BMWs." Well, no. And what's more, he and his buddies were playing Martin guitars. And at the time, my big treat was having enough money to buy rice and peanut sauce from the Thai place down the street.This moment changed me forever)

Anyway, now that the war is basically a done deal, does the radical left realize how much more it is sticking it's neck out by continuing with it's exaggerated rhetoric? Let me explain: What if, counter to their claims, the war ends quickly, the U.S. establishes a democratic regime, and then proceeds to leave Iraqi oil in Iraqi control. What then? Their entire position collapses. Their argument against the war rested entirely on these assumptions. It lacked any pragmatic dimension whatsoever. They risk discrediting themselves even further with the moderate majority of Americans who were also leery about the war, but who felt no affinity for the anti-war movement's platform.

This is my advice: Stop the anti-war demonstrations and seize the initiative from the Administration by moving directly to making demands for the direction of a post-war Iraq. Start calling for elections, for proportional representation, for federalism in Iraq, for human rights legislation, and for economic and foreign policy autonomy for a new democratically elected regime in Iraq. For if you do not, the right just might beat you to it, and you'll be stuck holding the wrong signs. And there'll be no hope of seeing anyone but a Bush in the White House for the next twelve years. Can you imagine that?

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

elipson
21st March 03, 01:58 AM
*full body shiver thinking of bush in power that long*
Just think, we'll have a whole generation thinking thats what a good public speaker sounds like!

I personally, disagreed (and marched) agianst this war mainly because of how Bush is going about it. I will always hold that opinion, even though I don't doubt that Iraq is gonna have better times ahead of it. I really think that Bush just messed this whole thing up, from a political point of view.

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
-Ghandi

SamHarber
21st March 03, 04:19 AM
When I picked my girlfriend up from work yesterday, the students at the nearby college were protesting outside. From the signs and placards they had, they all had what could best be called a piss-poor idea of the background to the entire thing. I'll forgive the younger ones, as they are either naive or jumping on the bandwagon to be cool. The older students and teachers really should know better.
I don't mind them opposing the war, but I'd rather they opposed it while knowing most of the facts behind it.

US: 4 UK: 8

Mr. Donkeypenis
21st March 03, 07:30 AM
I think Bush handled the whole thing just fine. I hope that next we leave the useless U.N.

A.K.A MEAT

Beatdown Richie
21st March 03, 09:31 AM
Anyway, now that the war is basically a done deal, does the radical left realize how much more it is sticking it's neck out by continuing with it's exaggerated rhetoric? Let me explain: What if, counter to their claims, the war ends quickly, the U.S. establishes a democratic regime, and then proceeds to leave Iraqi oil in Iraqi control. What then?

Then, the US administration has still alienated a large number of important allies, shown its contempt for the UN and international law, and established itself as international bully #1. Not to mention the American and Iraqi casualties that the war will cause until then.

Much of the damage has already been done, no matter how well the war goes from now on.


Their entire position collapses. Their argument against the war rested entirely on these assumptions. It lacked any pragmatic dimension whatsoever. They risk discrediting themselves even further with the moderate majority of Americans who were also leery about the war, but who felt no affinity for the anti-war movement's platform.

I don't really see why that would happen.


This is my advice: Stop the anti-war demonstrations and seize the initiative from the Administration by moving directly to making demands for the direction of a post-war Iraq. Start calling for elections, for proportional representation, for federalism in Iraq, for human rights legislation, and for economic and foreign policy autonomy for a new democratically elected regime in Iraq.

Calling for these things sounds like a good plan. But stopping the anti-war demonstrations would, IMO, send the wrong signal - that anti-war protesters have changed their opinion about the lack of justification of the war, and now support it. Which they don't, AFAICT.


For if you do not, the right just might beat you to it, and you'll be stuck holding the wrong signs. And there'll be no hope of seeing anyone but a Bush in the White House for the next twelve years. Can you imagine that?

Argh. I prefer not to.

SLJ
21st March 03, 10:12 AM
>shown its contempt for the UN and international law.


Which would have pissed around for another 12 years leaving Sadam to do as he pleases, the US is doing the right thing.

----------------------------------------------------------
Space may be the final frontier,
But it's made in a Hollywood basement.

Beatdown Richie
21st March 03, 11:15 AM
>shown its contempt for the UN and international law.


Which would have pissed around for another 12 years leaving Sadam to do as he pleases, the US is doing the right thing.

As you may have noticed, there were UN inspectors inside Iraq for the last couple of months, they found some stuff and had it destroyed, they checked some of the information that was given to them by the US and found it inaccurate. Now, of course they were only there because of the pressure exerted by the US - what do you expect Saddam to say, "welcome back my friends, long time no see, let me show you all of my new toys?" .
BUT. They were there. They were in the process of disarming Iraq and making sure that Saddam was not going anywhere with his suspected weapons of mass destruction. There was no justification to start a war now, when progress was being made, in the face of half of the UN security council saying, "hey, inspections seem to work, let's do that for a while."

Osiris
21st March 03, 11:18 AM
"But the left has whole armies of these people with their chic Che Guevara t-shirts and their $800 bongo drums."

I do NOT have a bongo drum!!

"A well set table, 'Third Rock From The Sun'
Dead men hung, 'Caddilacs and dinosaurs'
hot peanuts and fireworks, a Holocaust" - Warcloud

SLJ
21st March 03, 11:24 AM
Sadam didn't want them to find the weapons, he's hidden them well away.

Driving round in vans with U.N on the side doesn't exactly take him by suprise does it.

We know he's got them, we sold them to him.

----------------------------------------------------------
Space may be the final frontier,
But it's made in a Hollywood basement.

The Wastrel
21st March 03, 11:31 AM
I can loan a bit so you could buy one. Tee-hee!


I don't really see why that would happen.

Let me explain. They are making certain claims and predictions about the war as the basis of their anti-war sentiment-"war for oil", imperialism, millions of dead Iraqis etc. Given that, if the outcome does not resemble their predictions, then they are stuck on the wrong platform. That matters. It's why the Democrats are so utterly silent.
As for international law...what law? There is no real international law. The UN is currently ineffective because it only reflects the conflicts of interest that exist between nations outside the UN. Think about this, in the real world of law, do people vote on whether or not one is going to be arrested? No, the laws are rigid and followed as consistently as possible, because the monopoly on force is held by the state. In the international system, an individual country seeking the UN's imprimatur has to contend with competing and sometimes entirely spiteful interests. I guarantee you, that even had the US provided incontrovertible evidence, France, China, and Germany would have continued with their intractability. Russia probably could have been won aboard. Thing is these things are about interests, not law or principle. And nations don't respect each other's interests if they run up against each other in any way. As much as Bush's diplomatic failures are deep and wide, France and the opposition committed a great diplomatic failure when it opposed against all reason a resolution with an explicit and definite threat of force for non-compliance. They're both to blame.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Osiris
21st March 03, 11:33 AM
"What if, counter to their claims, the war ends quickly, the U.S. establishes a democratic regime, and then proceeds to leave Iraqi oil in Iraqi control. What then?"

Wait.

"A well set table, 'Third Rock From The Sun'
Dead men hung, 'Caddilacs and dinosaurs'
hot peanuts and fireworks, a Holocaust" - Warcloud

The Wastrel
21st March 03, 11:40 AM
Come on dude! I'm talking about short-term political consequences!!! I am more than fully aware of the possible outcome of a protracted occupation etc. etc. But VOTERS aren't. And we cannot afford to ignore the domestic political reality.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

The Wastrel
21st March 03, 12:17 PM
One caveat:

The anti-war left, no matter how fatuous, performs an extremely useful function in voicing a loud counter-valent opinion that may keep the adminstration in check and balances against the pro-war sentiment when it comes to execution. Who knows whether or not the strength of anti-war sentiment causes planners to adjust their approach in order to placate them? I would think it's very possible.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Jamoke
21st March 03, 12:22 PM
BUSH is the most powerful President this Country has ever had. Those of you that hate him, get used to him, he'll be around for another SIX (6) years.

Like it or NOT!

"If attacked fight, and fight to kill"

The Wastrel
21st March 03, 12:30 PM
Yes, Jamoke. We know how it works. Notice you say the "most powerful." It's kind of hard to comment on that in any meaningful way. His party controls the legislature, so that means he is powerful. He is in command of the most powerful American army ever, no doubt of that. But he is still neither intelligent nor cunning; he has been outmaneuvered by foreign leaders like that rightist joker Chirac, and he actually failed to win the support of Putin, who should have been very sympathetic. He is entirely unconcerned with domestic politics, except in that he may secure a massive tax cut for his cronies. (Does anyone realize WHY conservatives want to slash govt. spending?) And I do not look forward to an administration without Colin Powell to balance it. And I certainly don't want to live under Neal and Jeb.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Beatdown Richie
21st March 03, 01:22 PM
Let me explain. They are making certain claims and predictions about the war as the basis of their anti-war sentiment-"war for oil", imperialism, millions of dead Iraqis etc. Given that, if the outcome does not resemble their predictions, then they are stuck on the wrong platform. That matters. It's why the Democrats are so utterly silent.

Okay, that may happen. It all depends on how the media report it, though - just as it does for the other side. Assume that US troops quickly take down Saddam, they search for chemical weapons and they find none. Would the main-stream media then blame Bush for the blatant lies he told them, or would they celebrate his quick victory? The public is likely to forget stupid things that people said if they are no longer mentioned by anyone.




As for international law...what law? There is no real international law. The UN is currently ineffective because it only reflects the conflicts of interest that exist between nations outside the UN.

Isn't that part of the point of the UN - to be a forum where nations can discuss their points of view in a controlled environment?
Would the UN be more "effective" if it just went along with everything some American President said?


Think about this, in the real world of law, do people vote on whether or not one is going to be arrested?

Ever heard of this thing called a jury?


I guarantee you, that even had the US provided incontrovertible evidence, France, China, and Germany would have continued with their intractability.

I don't think so. They wouldn't have jumped on the war bandwagon with a hooray,
but they would have at least given up active resistance, possibly abstaining from a vote rather than threatening a veto.

The Wastrel
21st March 03, 01:30 PM
Ever heard of this thing called a jury?

Let's assume I have. Wouldn't that be nice? Totally incomparable. Juries don't vote on arrests.


Would the UN be more "effective" if it just went along with everything some American President said?

Come on man, that's not what I said, and I'm not a Bushie. I just refuse to believe the pie-in-the-sky vision of the UN.


**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Beatdown Richie
21st March 03, 05:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:

Let's assume I have. Wouldn't that be nice? Totally incomparable. Juries don't vote on arrests.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote>
Well, no, but the procedure was not that much different from a trial- with the UN inspectors gathering and presenting evidence in the case, Powell in the role of DA, and the security council voting on whether they consider the defendant guilty as charged. The fact that Saddam was still sitting in Baghdad doesn't make much of a difference.



<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:

Come on man, that's not what I said, and I'm not a Bushie. I just refuse to believe the pie-in-the-sky vision of the UN.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote>
I apologize. Yeah, the UN is not perfect, but it's a lot better than "every state for himself".

The Wastrel
21st March 03, 05:26 PM
The difference is Richie, that when your home is searched for evidence in the course of a trial, you're already under arrest. They do whatever they want. That was not the case. They needed a resolution with teeth. Teeth are the foundation of justice. That's it.

The problem with the UN is that it's STILL every nation for itself, only now we have hordes of tiny nations that receive billions of dollars of aid from a few of the strongest, and who have NO IDEA what kind of pressures these other nations are under, but who nevertheless make a difference with votes on the Security Council (I know how it's structured. Don't worry) and on every other UN resolution.
There are too many veto-players in the Security Council. Maybe there shouldn't be any.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Osiris
21st March 03, 06:19 PM
"Come on dude! I'm talking about short-term political consequences!!! I am more than fully aware of the possible outcome of a protracted occupation etc. etc. But VOTERS aren't. And we cannot afford to ignore the domestic political reality."

Im not concerned with the short term conscequences. It'll be just another day in America no matter who runs shit. People need to get educated.


"A well set table, 'Third Rock From The Sun'
Dead men hung, 'Caddilacs and dinosaurs'
hot peanuts and fireworks, a Holocaust" - Warcloud

Sheol
21st March 03, 07:19 PM
Before things stray too far away from the topic, what are your opinions regarding the "peace" protesters who are committing sedition and acts of domestic terrorism?

Vargas
21st March 03, 08:23 PM
Whoever raised the idea that Iraq doesn't have WMD (I think it was BD Ritchie)? Sorry to bust your bubble, dude. I've been in the briefs, I've seen the pictures. They have them. Whether or not they have the balls to use them is a different story, especially now that the Iraqi military is doing it's best imitation of Fred Ettish.

Regarding Bush and public opinion, what can I say, it pays to be a winner. People will jump on the bandwagon until it hits a speed bump. Then they'll all pile off and start whining and bitching as if they always opposed what was going on. Most of the U.S. public is fickle, they love you when you're the man but will throw you to the wolves if you're luck turns sour. I hope Bush and his cronies remember that when they stop high-fiving each other and the real work begins.

As for peace protesters, I finally realized how, well, pathetic most of them are. They really are quite miserable and pitiful. There were about 20 or 30 standing outside the main gate of Kirtland AFB two days ago. They looked kind of furtive and guilty, standing there with giant peace symbols and trying to think of something more original to chant than "No blood for oil". They had the usual suspects:

-The ubiquitous Vietnam protesters (now flabby college professors) out for one last hurrah ("Let me tell ya, it was a lot different back in the day. Back when protesting was REAL, man. We didn't have the internet, just free love and cheap weed. Those were the days. . .) Fashion tip for the peace vets: grey hair and pony-tails are not a good combination. Dye it, cut it, but for chrissake, do something with it. Believe me, it's for your own good.

-The restless college students skipping class and hoping they get credit for actually showing up at a protest ("Dude, this is getting boring, let's grab some beer, go back to the dorm and play 'Counterstrike'")

-The flaky soccer mom who's worried that her 11-year-old son might get drafted, or worse, decide to enlist on his own. Does bring home-made cookies, though, becoming quite popular by mid-afternoon.

-The vegan Earthfriend who still has a garage full of signs from other protests (STOP GLOBALIZATION!, STOP OIL DRILLING IN ANWR! STOP USE OF DRIFT NETS! STOP MEDICAL TESTING ON ANIMALS! STOP CUTTING DOWN TREES! STOP ALL PROGRESS! JUST STOP, OKAY!) Has body odor that would gag a skunk.

-The skinny guys from the local high school trying to score some 'peace poontang' ("So, you're like all progressive and free and stuff, right? After the protest, wanna stop by the Sonic and get something to eat?") Never quite figure out why their bitchin' RATM t-shirts never get them any women.

Yep, nothing like a peace protest to showcase the many facets of the human race. Then, of course, someone gets the bright idea to start blocking traffic. Enter the friendly folks from the Albuquerque PD. They present a solution to the traffic jam ("Hey! Hippie fuckheads! Get out of the goddamn street!") Sometimes this works, sometimes Mr. Teargas and Mr. Nightstick have to enter the discussion. In the end, the street re-opens, the paddy wagon drives off and a whole assload of lawyers collect even more money than they usually do. However it ends, it's fun for the whole fam damnliy. I just wish I'd had some popcorn while I was watching.




"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"

Beatdown Richie
21st March 03, 08:33 PM
My opinion is that "terrorism" has unfortunately become a catch-all for for anything that Bush thinks is bad. Blocking a street or a government building is civil disobedience. Blowing up government buildings is terrorism, and there is a world of difference between them. The former can be justified in some situations (like an administration that chooses to ignore hundreds of thousands of peaceful protesters), the latter is unjustifiable.
Just my opinion.

niloroth
21st March 03, 08:54 PM
Before things stray too far away from the topic, what are your opinions regarding the "peace" protesters who are committing sedition and acts of domestic terrorism?



Um, huh? A bit more info might be a bit better. Broad generalizations like this need to be clarified a bit.

Or I could simply reply in kind and ask what you think about the "america is for americans" Violent rednecks who are out harassing US citizens they suspect of being Arabs or Muslims. Even if they probebly couldn't explain the difference between a Muslim and Seek or a Hindu if they tried.


Niloroth

The Wastrel
21st March 03, 09:15 PM
Beatdown,
Here's the rub, apparently a majority of Americans DO support the war, and I'm not sure what political responsibility an elected office holder has to "hundreds of thousands" of protesters in foreign countries.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Sheol
21st March 03, 09:19 PM
Sedition: Inciting to obstruct or seize control of military, government, or emergency services. Inciting U.S. military personnel to shoot their officers.

Terrorism: Preparing Molotov cocktails for use in rioting. PREMEDITATED attacks on law enforcement officers. Destruction and seizure of public and private property to 'make a statement'.

BTW, do any of those idiots even know where the money behind the protests came from?

Edited by - Sheol on March 21 2003 20:32:09

deus ex machina
21st March 03, 09:36 PM
What the, we're at war? HOLY SHIT!

~
my name is daniel jo

rellik_yzarc
21st March 03, 09:45 PM
practice makes perfect
http://www.ermac.org/images/BushWar.jpg

elipson
21st March 03, 11:58 PM
Uh sheol, how much does it cost to protest?

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
-Ghandi

Kungfoolss
22nd March 03, 01:18 AM
I think Bush handled the whole thing just fine. I hope that next we leave the useless U.N.

A.K.A MEAT


Spoken like a True American. People such as you do America Proud.

Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Mcdojo.com, creator of the Kungfoolss Darwinian Awards, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena

http://forums.delphiforums.com/testing12345703/start

elipson
22nd March 03, 02:15 AM
Hahahahaha!!!
You know you're on the wrong side when kungfoolss is supporting you!!

spoken like a true american, give me a break! It's nice to see the art of propaganda is still effective today.

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
-Ghandi

IndoChinese
22nd March 03, 02:40 AM
war is for gaining and controlling resources. all that righteous indignation is a waste of time. as soon as people start going hungry, their "higher principles" go out the window. the united states is the fattest country in the world,and the largest predator. dont shit yourself,it has always been this way. nice post vargas.

patfromlogan
22nd March 03, 11:16 AM
I guess I'm a little late on this thread but there are too many opportunities to miss!

Wastrel, as a dead head who first saw the Dead in '67, I was amazed, heartened, and sickened by the enormous growth of the fan base and their behavior. The Grateful Dead themselves, near the end of their career issued a letter to their fans, basically saying, "Look, we play music. If you don't have a ticket, fuck off." This was after a concert where thousands broke down a fence and entered illegally and the crowd watching cheered! The Dead responded with New Speedway Boogie and repeated the last lines over and over and over, like for fifteen minutes!

Spent a little time on the mountain
Spent a little time on the hill
I saw things getting out of hand
I guess they always will

I don't know but I been told
if the horse don't pull you got to carry the load
I don't know whose back's that strong
Maybe find out before too long

One way or another
One way or another
One way or another
this darkness got to give
One way or another
One way or another
One way or another
this darkness got to give




"But the left has whole armies of these people with their chic Che Guevara t-shirts and their $800 bongo drums."

Where is this army? I want to join!



"What if, counter to their claims, the war ends quickly, the U.S. establishes a democratic regime, and then proceeds to leave Iraqi oil in Iraqi control. What then?"

Shit, I'll give $10,000 to Bush, quit being Quaker and become an Anglican, and give up my peacenik ways. Do you mean to ask "What if the ruling oligarchy reverses their position of four hundred years; exploitation, destruction, desecration, and defecation, and starts to act decently? HA HA HA HA! You can come up with some good ones!


But Wastrel, this "Anyway, now that the war is basically a done deal, does the radical left realize how much more it is sticking it's neck out by continuing with it's exaggerated rhetoric?" takes a position of advising and counseling the anti war movement?


The people who are involved don't care, for the most part about the view others might have of the peace movement. They are there because of conviction.

Personally, from my own knowledge and experience protesting the Vietnam War, nukes, and the Central American wars, we anti-war protestors are no RADICAL LEFTISTS. I mean, fuck, I'm a landscaper contractor and a landlord, live in a middle class home, and take frequent vacations to Hawaii. If you watch TV, you'd think that the demonstrators in Seattle (trade demos two years ago) were radical leftists. If you were there, you'd have seen tens of thousands of normal looking peaceful demonstrators with two dozen morons running around with black bandanas breaking windows and getting ALL the coverage.

The local peace vigil has mostly faith-based people involved. I missed the vigil yesterday afternoon, but I heard that the lady who gets the permit is quitting, plans to go to a prayer group instead, because a few of the demonstrators yelled back at people in cars. These are not some radical leftists worrying about how they look, or how their campaign is going. Mostly they/we are people who are saying NOT IN MY NAME.





The anti-war left, no matter how fatuous, performs an extremely useful function in voicing a loud counter-valent opinion that may keep the adminstration in check and balances against the pro-war sentiment when it comes to execution. Who knows whether or not the strength of anti-war sentiment causes planners to adjust their approach in order to placate them? I would think it's very possible.

Are their any anti-war middle of the roaders? or anti-war right? But, yes, Nixon's people have said that they were ready to use nukes in Vietnam and that it was only the giant anti-war movement that kept them from doing so. Most of the anti-war movement news and actions were downplayed and ignored by the media in the Vietnam era, it's a bit better now with internet. Besides millions in the streets, there were actions that I thot were cool. Like at the Miami Republican Convention when affinity groups of women would lie down in front of the buses carrying delegates, then rip out the tire valve stems. With the bus stuck in the midst of tens of thousands of demonstrators, they then would walk the delegates the two miles to the convention hall and while protecting them from the crazies, would "educate" the delegates. Ha Ha Ha.

And Vargas - hey those of us old fucks with enough hair to have a gray pony tail think that they look cool - or at least the delusional starry eyed young hippie chicks we're getting blow jobs from think they're cool. Ha ha ha.

Seriously, you guys seem to think that protesting is fun. No, it's mostly a drag, work, and takes time. But a few people who think they are committed to things like Jesus, truth, fairness, equality, and so forth continue to waste their time and look pitiful. I know it's a sad thing; I've been there too often. But where do you draw the line? Do you admire the civil rights and anti-segregation workers who gave their lives in the sixties. I think most of us (those to the left of the KKK) do. Do I give a shit about PETA members yelling at me for eating meat? Ofcourse not. My line and your line differ, but we both agree that some things were or are worth protesting.


At some point, demostrations and anti-gov't or anti-church activities are accepted (are you mad at Luther, for his anti-catholic protests?). Rabble in arms, any one? (what the brits called us in our revolution, the only good revolution, all other revolutions are evil) Prostesting is not a cheer leading activity.



>>>Always walk on a bright, wide road. If you choose to live with your right posture, you don't have to go on a dark road or a malodorous place. Oyama

Vargas
22nd March 03, 12:07 PM
Okay, Pat, I'll bite. What do you want to happen now? We're in Iraq, that's past debate. Anyone protesting now obviously wants something to change. What should we do now? Pretend you're in charge. Do we just up and leave, say 'fuck it, the protesters are right' and just go home? That is probably the real problem I have with the current crop of protesters. I can't, for the life of me, figure out what the fuck they really want. They want peace. Okay, we'll have that in a couple of weeks, just give the 3rd ID and the Royal Marine Commandos a little more time. Oh, they want peace NOW? All right, we stop all military operations and pull back into Kuwait. Now what? Oh yeah, the secret (and not-so-secret) police show back up in the villages and towns we just liberated. SCUD units continue to hide out in western Iraq. The Ba'ath party carries out a fresh purge of the Iraqi military (especially the traitorous units that surrendered to the U.S. and U.K.)


Is that really what you want to happen? Be honest, would it make you happy if we stopped everything and ceased all military operations in Iraq this very instant? And don't trot out that tired old arguement about ending the killing of innocent life. Those guys over there are just like me (hell, I was just over there 4 months ago). They are doing everything in their power to avoid any unnecessary death and destruction. Innocent people always get killed in war, that's what makes it so repugnant to me and any other rational person. There are, however, worse things than war and Saddam (along with his psycho sons), with his caches of WMD, is one of them. That, I think, is the main difference between you and me. I think fighting a war is bad, but sometimes a necessary evil to prevent a greater evil. You think war is the ultimate evil (at least where the United States is concerned) and it is much better to sit here and just wait and pray that something bad doesn't happen. With the kind of threats facing the U.S. these days, you can't sit back and wait. WMD changes the whole equation. To fight terrorists and extremists, you have to be pro-active.

When talking about peace protests, let look at the ones that took place 18 months ago. Did you protest our invasion of Afghanistan? Was that another 'unchecked war of U.S. agression'? Do you think the U.S. military should be condemned for all the innocents that got killed there? Yes, Afghanistan is still a mess but it's a lot better off than before.

But wait, shouldn't we have opened 'discussions' with the Taliban/Al Quaida rather than attack? Shouldn't 'dialogue' have replaced bombs and troops when dealing with Mullah Omar and his merry band of fanatics? Shouldn't we have 'loved' our enemies and approached them with an open heart? And, of course, when this approach worked, shouldn't we have used it on Saddam? Guys like Saddam react really well to pacifism and love, I assure you. They always have nothing but smiles and welcomes for people like Sean Penn, Jesse Jackson, Ramsey Clark, Jimmy Carter and other 'peace' delegates. And the human shields? I bet Saddam was beside himself with joy at the thought of peace activists showing up of their own free will and volunteering to die in order to preserve his regime.

Maybe you're right, Pat. Maybe I've wasted my life on learning how to fight wars and inflict destruction on my fellow man. Maybe I should be wracked with guilt and self-loathing at my warmongering ways. Maybe I should be more like Jesus or Ghandi and just accept my fate with nothing but love and peace for my fellow man.

Or maybe I should be glad that I'm out there, fighting the good fight against dictators and fanatics that revel in the fear and pain they inflict on the world. I'm not naive, I know the U.S. isn't perfect and has a lot to atone for. I know that U.S. policy causes problems. But I'm out there trying to put things right, not sitting in some protest, mouthing useless slogans and hoping that the world magically molds itself to my utopian wishes. If I have to die at the hands of some Islamic extremist, I'd rather it be overseas in the middle of a SOF mission rather than in the middle of a U.S. city with my family at my side, wondering why our enemies hate us so much. A buddy of mine had a t-shirt that explained it all: PEACE THROUGH SUPERIOR FIREPOWER. I'm all for peace, I hate seeing innocent people die too, but I'll take a helicopter full of door-kickers over a bunch of protesters and activists any day.

"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"

Edited by - Vargas on March 22 2003 11:10:51

patfromlogan
22nd March 03, 12:40 PM
"Maybe you're right, Pat. Maybe I've wasted my life on learning how to fight"

did I say that? That faith based protestor aren't radical leftists is kinda what I was trying to say. I mean fuck, Vargas, I've spent over thirty years learning hand to hand combat.


I'll get back, but please respond to things I actually say, not some interpretation of intent. I gotta get shit done, other than type! Later,

>>>Always walk on a bright, wide road. If you choose to live with your right posture, you don't have to go on a dark road or a malodorous place. Oyama

Fisting Kittens
22nd March 03, 01:04 PM
well said Vargas

poet
22nd March 03, 01:30 PM
patfromlogan -
"...but please respond to things I actually say, not some interpretation of intent."

Well said

"I do not agree with what you have to say but, I will defend to the death your right to say it."
-Voltaire

Vargas
22nd March 03, 01:44 PM
Then quit quoting me out of context. My full statement was ". . .wasted my life learning how to fight wars and inflict destruction on my fellow man". If you want to quote me, quote the whole sentence. Thirty years of hand-to-hand training does not make you a professional soldier. Being a commissioned officer in an operational part of the U.S. military for 11 years does. If you really think I'd stick around in this racket if we were intentionally killing innocent civilians, then you better think again. I know the insults are just good-natured mockery but some people really believe them. You probably know better, but a lot of people (peace activists especially) say that shit and mean it. The first protester who jumps in front of my truck and calls me a baby-killer better be ready to receive a free lesson in vale tudo. Enough said.

"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"

Sheol
22nd March 03, 02:29 PM
elipson: It costs nothing to protest, but having helped organize fund-raising events, I can tell you that it isn't cheap to put together a rally. You need money to pay for basic supplies and equipment rentals, even if you assume that food and transportation is donated. Even with individual contributors, any major event requires an underwriter with deep pockets.

Sheol
22nd March 03, 03:39 PM
I don't believe that every single "peace" protester fits into a neat cubbyhole. There really are some sincere people who actually believe that there is no justification for war. If that's their personal ideology, fine. However, most of the protesters tend to be pretty clueless... which is why they are so easily manipulated by the extremists in their midsts. If you have studied group dynamics, it's easily apparent how it happens.

So, what do the "peace" protesters have to say about THEIR violence? I've checked out the major "peace" websites and haven't seen any disavowance of the violent actions committed IN THEIR NAME. In fact, many of the websites encourage civil disobedience... WITHOUT stating limits. The people who are protesting peacefully, such as the peace vigils and what-not, should not be confused with the violent ones, but even they, as a whole, have FAILED to publicly decry the extremists.

To me, the physical and verbal violence of a large number of "peace" protests shows their true character. Their actions do nothing but polarize the opinions of others. Are they really changing anything? Only in their dreams. Perhaps nervous politicians might be intimidated by the media coverage of such events, but most of the changes are made by those who work productively with those within the administration.

Consider the precision strikes of the vilified "shock and awe" campaign. Was that motivated by anti-war protests? Nope. I can tell you that it was motivated by those working within the administration that understood the STRATEGIC and TACTICAL advantages of targetting specific structures and elements, over less discriminate methods. Further it is a reflection of a moral and ethical imperative in play within the administration. It's easy for the "peace" protesters to paint the administration and military command as a bunch of heartless warmongers, but they fail to recognize the actual essence of those individuals' ideology. Planners recognized that in order to end the war as quickly as possible, they had to take effective action. They are not trying to kill as many Iraqi soldiers or civilians. They are simply trying to neutralize the enemy as quickly as possible, while minimizing U.S. casualties. The current campaign fits the mission imperatives AND ideology. They aren't heartless people. They have their own moral and ethical guideposts. They are certainly not perfect, but the "peace"/anti-war protesters certainly do not hold the high moral ground in comparison to them.

Osiris
22nd March 03, 03:46 PM
"So, what do the "peace" protesters have to say about THEIR violence? I've checked out the major "peace" websites and haven't seen any disavowance of the violent actions committed IN THEIR NAME. In fact, many of the websites encourage civil disobedience... WITHOUT stating limits. The people who are protesting peacefully, such as the peace vigils and what-not, should not be confused with the violent ones, but even they, as a whole, have FAILED to publicly decry the extremists."

Violence has it's uses. Who's against violence? Its all in how it's used. If the protesters were somehow succesful, then they would have used a little violence to avert a lot? Correct? Nonfatal violence at that.



"A well set table, 'Third Rock From The Sun'
Dead men hung, 'Caddilacs and dinosaurs'
hot peanuts and fireworks, a Holocaust" - Warcloud

Fisting Kittens
22nd March 03, 03:54 PM
"Violence has it's uses. Who's against violence? Its all in how it's used. If the protesters were somehow succesful, then they would have used a little violence to avert a lot? Correct?"



Holy SHIT!!!!!!!!!!! Thank You Osiris you just justified the war! Cuz that's exactly what we're doing using limited violence to avert a greater range and depth of violence.

Sheol
22nd March 03, 04:15 PM
Osiris:

"Violence has it's uses. Who's against violence? Its all in how it's used. If the protesters were somehow succesful, then they would have used a little violence to avert a lot? Correct? Nonfatal violence at that.

As I have been saying, they are being hypocritical and do not have the moral high ground. Non-fatal? Holding up emergency services is somehow BETTER than outright killing someone, right? Attacking people that have as much to do with the waging of war as they do, is justified? Destroying and seizing public and private property that have no pertinence to the waging of war, is justified? Not only are they stupid, but they have no moral superiority. Their moral position is INFERIOR to those that they protest against. Those violent protesters are violating the law, not acting within it. Those violent protesters are trampling upon the rights and liberties of their fellow citizen. They are criminals, not heroes.

Fisting Kittens: As you see, anti-war people are perfectly capable of hanging themselves with their own words.

Edited by - Sheol on March 22 2003 15:24:51

Osiris
22nd March 03, 04:30 PM
"Holy SHIT!!!!!!!!!!! Thank You Osiris you just justified the war! Cuz that's exactly what we're doing using limited violence to avert a greater range and depth of violence."

That I did. The war is "justified". Its also foolish and irresponsible. High risk low gain. If we fuck up the middle east, then things will get VERY nasty. If we leave things alone, Iraq will be a problem, but not a fatal one.

"A well set table, 'Third Rock From The Sun'
Dead men hung, 'Caddilacs and dinosaurs'
hot peanuts and fireworks, a Holocaust" - Warcloud

Shura
22nd March 03, 04:47 PM
When I first did research into the war I was surprised at what little point there was to it. If you had asked me before if a rogue state posed a threat to the west, I would have said 'maybe North Korea'.
This doesn't mean that there are no good reasons for doing this war. But America doesn't go around attacking every unfriendly dictatorship in the world, and there are many places where dictators are doing worse things to their people, so why Iraq, when it hadn't even made a threat and a great number of people would oppose a war?
Almost makes me believe there's some sort of hidden agenda to it.
Nevertheless, were at war with Iraq, so we might as well do our best to keep to our promises and make it a democracy with free people.
The difficulty in this is the sharp contrast between conservative Islam(submission) and the ideals of democracy itself.

There's something inside me that pulls beneath the surface, consuming...

Sheol
22nd March 03, 04:56 PM
Those who fight on our behalf are usually the ones who honestly don't want war. They and their loved ones know what the price is, because they are usually the ones that pay the blood, sweat, and tears portion of it. They are the ones that will be missed, perhaps permanently.

Those violent protesters are criminals taking advantage of the circumstances. Worse, they are becoming, if not already, the (mostly) unwitting pawns of those that hate the United States. The anarchists have always been easily co-opted by those seeking to further their own anti-establishment agendas. The money and rhetoric tends to be too appealing to resist. They are not using groups such as Islamic Jihad or the Workers World Party. The opposite is true. The "peace" protesters are the ones being used by those groups.

Shura
22nd March 03, 05:03 PM
It is difficult for a protestor to oppose a war and then speak of revolution, something which I have heard and find to be complete hypocrisy.
Also, I find that most people that argue over this war simply latch onto one aspect such as 'oil' or 'liberation' (to choose one from each side) and repeat their argument over and over again. This includes peace protestors.
I have met people who support anarchy, or call themselves anarchist, but I bet that if they had the faintest idea what it meant they would shut up pretty quick.

There's something inside me that pulls beneath the surface, consuming...

Fatality Dragon
22nd March 03, 06:13 PM
LMAO! Vargas, you should try take a helicopter full of protester and activies to Iraq and drop them off in front of Iraq guard elite. That would teach any protester and activies that their words mean nothing to Saddam and Bush instantly. Also they wouldn't be protesting any more if handful of thier fellows got killed by Iraq military or Saddam.

Just throw rock at it and it will go away.

"I would rather admit I am a lousy student than say I am the best, because once you think you are the best, there is no reason to continue learning."

Sheol
22nd March 03, 06:27 PM
Shura:

Did your research answer these questions:

- How important is the Middle East to U.S. (and international) economic systems?

- Would further destabilization by an Iraq with deliverable WMDs be in our best interest?

- What would Iraq do to Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Israel, or perhaps Iran, if it had the options.

- What would Israel do if Iraq exercised them?

- What major treaty organization is Turkey a member of what do you think that its members would do if it was attacked?

- What reprecussions would result from military intervention by them? (Note the issue with Turkey military involvement in Iraq.)

- What powerful cartel is Saudi Arabia a part of? How important are they to the United States?

- Considering the ideological imperatives of Islam and its internal range, how can the example of Qatar provide lessons in democratization.

If it did, you're far more knowledgeable about the situation that most.

Most Americans are ignorant of the international arms race. Just because the U.S. is the only remain superpower, doesn't mean that all other nations have abandoned their own ambitions. We are leading up to the most dangerous time in the world and September 11 was just a wake-up call to let Americans know that the world is an even more dangerous place.

Technology and increasingly open borders has permitted 'spill-over' of violent conflicts. International political alliances and treaties have always been aspects of multi-national wars. International economic ties have always been a factor, as nations seek to protect or further their own interests. There is no safety in isolationism. Two oceans can no longer act as 'buffers'. The U.N. is an effete organization that lacks effective leadership, backbone, and teeth. In order for the U.S. to preserve itself, it must take an even more active interest in the world.

Unfortunately, there are no easy answers leading to mutual peace and prosperity. I don't imagine that this or any other administration will be able to make the best possible decisions, all of the time. Thus, it's important for us to widen our knowledge, improve intelligence/counter-intelligence capabilities, and strengthen our domestic situation. Just prepare for a bumpy ride, folks.

Edited by - Sheol on March 22 2003 17:30:31

The Wastrel
22nd March 03, 09:14 PM
Sheol,
You've piqued my curiosity vis a vis Qatar. I have to plead ignorance on that one.

Shura,
Refer to my answer on the North Korea thread for a short and inexact brief on that situation.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

The Wastrel
22nd March 03, 09:28 PM
Interesting comments on the Dead, Pat. Thanks.

Beyond that, if the anti-war movement is less concerned with simply opposing the war than with using it to advance the rest of their questionable political agenda, then I suppose it doesn't matter at all that they have pushed a great number of middle-roaders into silence. Thanks. Thanks a lot.

And if you were one of those at Seattle, I can imagine what you have to say about the economics of the global south...(bait).


**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

patfromlogan
22nd March 03, 10:08 PM
[

Okay, Pat, I'll bite. What do you want to happen now? We're in Iraq, that's past debate. Anyone protesting now obviously wants something to change. What should we do now? Pretend you're in charge. Do we just up and leave,say 'fuck it, the protesters are right' and just go home? That is probably the real problem I have with the current crop of protesters. I can't, for the life of me, figure out what the fuck they really want.

They want peace. Okay, we'll have that in a couple of weeks, just give the 3rd ID and the Royal Marine Commandos a little more time. Oh, they want peace NOW? All right, we stop all military operations and pull back into Kuwait. Now what? Oh yeah, the secret (and not-so-secret) police show back up in the villages and towns we just liberated. SCUD units continue to hide out in western Iraq. The Ba'ath party carries out a fresh purge of the Iraqi military (especially the traitorous units that surrendered to the U.S. and U.K.)

Obviously there just a bit of momentum at this moment. I can only speculate what others may think. My own best case scenario would be the Iraqis playing the part of the French resistance tossing the nazis and their collaborators at John Wayne's feet, or in this case Saddam, his asshole sons, and his thugs in front of the Third Infantry Division. Given the Baath Party's record of first rate Stalin impersonators, I'd hope we establish rule of law so that Iraqis can punish the (put in clever synonym for assholes here).


Those guys over there are just like me (hell, I was just over there 4 months ago). They are doing everything in their power to avoid any unnecessary death and destruction. Innocent people always get killed in war, that's what makes it so repugnant to me and any other rational person. There are, however, worse things than war and Saddam (along with his psycho sons), with his caches of WMD, is one of them. That, I think, is the main difference between you and me. I think fighting a war is bad, but sometimes a necessary evil to prevent a greater evil. You think war is the ultimate evil (at least where the United States is concerned) and it is much better to sit here and just wait and pray that something bad doesn't happen. With the kind of threats facing the U.S. these days, you can't sit back and wait. WMD changes the whole equation. To fight terrorists and extremists, you have to be pro-active.

uh, please stop saying "you think" because it is not productive. Being as how that's not what I think, so I'm not responding to what I don't think, or don't think I think. Now we are talking about what?


Maybe you're right, Pat. Maybe I've wasted my life on learning how to fight wars and inflict destruction on my fellow man. Maybe I should be wracked with guilt and self-loathing at my warmongering ways. Maybe I should be more like Jesus or Ghandi and just accept my fate with nothing but love and peace for my fellow man.

I'd be wracked with guilt and self-loathing myself, if I wrote such an idiotic response.

For Christ's sake I JUST REREAD MY ENTIRE POST TO SEE WHAT GIVES YOU THESE WEIRD IDEAS. See what you made me do! I mean I tend to try not to flame and try hard to be logical. And for the life of me I've been searching the paragraphs for clues as to why you made your statements. My mistake, you lack logic, says patthevulcan.

I was trying to tell Wastrel that the people that I know who are involved in the peace movement are largely faith based and don't care about image and in a sense don't care about strategy, because they are "called" to witness their beliefs. Jesus Vargas, how long do you think activist Quakers lasted under Hitler? I was trying to make the point that such people do it anyway, even if it is not smart, that is, if you consider the chance that your child being made into a lamp shade important.

And what in the world gives you the idea that Christ and Gandhi just accepted their fates with nothing but peace and love for their fellow man? Gandhi spent nine years in prison, brought down a colonial empire and was shot. I think Jesus and Gandhi accepted their fates in agony.



Or maybe I should be glad that I'm out there, fighting the good fight against dictators and fanatics that revel in the fear and pain they inflict on the world. I'm not naive, I know the U.S. isn't perfect and has a lot to atone for. I know that U.S. policy causes problems. But I'm out there trying to put things right, not sitting in some protest, mouthing useless slogans and hoping that the world magically molds itself to my utopian wishes. If I have to die at the hands of some Islamic extremist, I'd rather it be overseas in the middle of a SOF mission rather than in the middle of a U.S. city with my family at my side, wondering why our enemies hate us so much. A buddy of mine had a t-shirt that explained it all: PEACE THROUGH SUPERIOR FIREPOWER. I'm all for peace, I hate seeing innocent people die too, but I'll take a helicopter full of door-kickers over a bunch of protesters and activists any day.


You know the problem is that you, Vargas, think I am judging and condemning you. I am not.

That last paragraph, though, really does read like a John Wayne speech.

The point I'd like to make is that unfortunately the good fight is against people who, just a little while ago, reaped the benefits of US support; money and arms. The simple facts are that the US and/or the CIA sets up assholes like Noriega, Saddam, and Osama, and when expedient, takes them down.

The problem isn't what I'd do tomorrow if I was in charge, it's that our Middle East policies as a nation were shaped in 1936. With the axis threat, falling Brit power, and rising US power, Aramco was formed to signify the ascention of the US hegemony in the coming struggle to keep Hitler away from the oil. This was formalized further with Britain in the early 70's. That we continue with this policy only makes sense if looked at as economic conflict, in a world with out Hitler or any other super power threat.



Then quit quoting me out of context. My full statement was ". . .wasted my life learning how to fight wars and inflict destruction on my fellow man". If you want to quote me, quote the whole sentence. Thirty years of hand-to-hand training does not make you a professional soldier. Being a commissioned officer in an operational part of the U.S. military for 11 years does. If you really think I'd stick around in this racket if we were intentionally killing innocent civilians, then you better think again. I know the insults are just good-natured mockery but some people really believe them. You probably know better, but a lot of people (peace activists especially) say that shit and mean it. The first protester who jumps in front of my truck and calls me a baby-killer better be ready to receive a free lesson in vale tudo. Enough said.

Sorry I didn't use the full quote - rereading it I see it makes a difference. But see I'm a civilian and I'm not sensitive in some areas. And learning karate (even Kyokushin) of course does not do anything but learn karate. While I do think that if one is serious about God, one atleast would try to be a pacifist, this applies more to organized violence than some moron speed freak mugger nut getting his nuts crushed. If a protestor jumps in front of you and calls you baby killer you have my permission to run them over. Why risk hurting your hands if you’re in a truck?

When I was a long hair I was in a '48 International and two rednecks cut me off and got out of their beautiful 442 Olds to fight. I rev'd the engine, nosed the truck a little toward their car and smiled. They looked at me and then looked back at their car and realized their mistake.

I was talking to a 'Nam vet who'd got off in Oakland and was greeted by screaming idiots who called him the worst you can imagine. Like my wife said, why can't people who are protesting for peace atleast be peaceful when they are demonstrating for peace? It does seem stupid, but one of the Quakers yesterday at the local vigil started yelling at cars. Some one would flip him off and he'd flip right out. So I guess here's another us and them. Violent peace protestors and nonviolent peace protestors. Seems like peace protestors had aught to be acting non violent, atleast for the time of the protest, but people are stupid.

Now this has taken so ufking long that I can't get to the other thread. So Vargas, let's talk about real issues, like how any decent karate bb would just do reverse punch and end it with you silly "two door" guys.


>>>Always walk on a bright, wide road. If you choose to live with your right posture, you don't have to go on a dark road or a malodorous place. Oyama

Vargas
22nd March 03, 11:21 PM
Okay, okay, I see where you're coming from now. I've been taking out some of my frustration of the handiest target and, lucky you, I found one on this board. My apologies for getting worked up, it's been a long week, if you know what I mean.

I just have a hard time drumming up any respect for people who block traffic, tie up scarce police and fire department manpower and generally make themselves a huge pain in the ass. And for what? The ball is already rolling. People need to realize that, for guys like myself and my buddies out there in the field, it IS demoralizing to watch all the protests springing up around the U.S. I get pissed off every time I turn on the TV and see a bunch of people waving signs with anti-war slogans. They say they really support the troops, but they say it in that patronizing manner that I've come to despise, as if people in the military are retarded and need bright, caring people (ie peace activists) to look out for their safety and welfare. Because people in the military are just tools, not very bright tools at that, and shouldn't be risked for something as grubby as oil or WMD or Iraqi freedom or whatever someone imagines this is all about. It's not the freedom of speech that drives me nuts. I can debate geopolitics all day long with someone who disagrees with me and not get upset. It's that patronizing and condescending way that a lot of protesters go about their dissent that gets my hackles up. Protesters hate George Bush? Fine, I can handle that. My dad has been a card-carrying Democrat his whole life and thinks W is a complete moron. Activists think we need more diplomatic firepower and less actual firepower? Sure, sounds good to me, talking your way out of trouble is always better than shooting your way out. But when protesters start vandalizing the property of military personnel and cause as much chaos and discord as they can because they suddenly realize that events have proceeded without their say-so, then I have a problem with that. MLK Jr., Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Andrei Sakarov, they all did the best they could against tyranny and oppression. But I fail to see the connections with today's protesters. No one is arresting them for speaking up. No one is shutting down newspapers because they take unpopular stands against the war. Hell, most peace protests get great coverage in this country, especially in your large urban centers. The sheriff of Taos, New Mexico even stood by while protesters trashed one of Donald Rumsfeld's homes the other day. Can you think of any other nation on Earth that gives dissenters this much leeway? I can't. As far as I can see, the truly peaceful protesters need to loudly and publicly denounce the jackasses who are turning their movement into a fucking circus. If they stay silent and let the freakshow continue to build, they can't complain when the majority of American's treat them with undeserved contempt.

I'll say this one last thing, then I'm through commenting on the anti-war movement.

Freedom of speech is a right. It can be abused like any other right and frequently is. Just because you can walk out on a street corner and make a public spectacle during a national crisis doesn't make it necessarily noble or good or even smart. Guys like me are volunteers. We aren't conscripted like most of the militaries around the world. We do this job because we think it's important and because we honestly want to do the right thing. When we see televised images of protesters, especially ones who seem shrill and obnoxious, we feel like our efforts aren't appreciated by the people we happen to be fighting for. To be honest, we feel like saying "Fuck it, I'm moving to Canada, I'm done living in a desert tent while some college student skips class to protest what I'm doing. Let them handle the next terrorist attack, the ungrateful bastards, I'm sure they'll be dancing in the streets when a WMD goes off in their city" We don't say it out loud, but we think it, especially when a lot of celebrities get in on the act and start shooting their mouths off. Military guys watch the news, they see what the signs say and how the protesters act. They don't like it, not even a little bit. It may not be a rational reaction, but there it is. So go ahead, protest. Protest to your heart's content. Just be aware that your best intentions don't mean jack-shit to guys like me. Want to support the troops? Don't be a media whore and see how asinine you can be on television. Live your life, for chissake, and let us do our job.

"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"

Osiris
22nd March 03, 11:23 PM
"Those violent protesters are criminals taking advantage of the circumstances."

So was Martin Luther King Jr. So somebody doesnt make it to the hospital. Who the fuck cares? Nobody. The middle east goes crazy and WW3 breaks out. Who cares? Everybody whos left. Future president wants to invade china and uses the precedent of Iraq. Everybody cares. Its a lot more important to stop that than it is to stop someone from dying on the way to the hospital.

"A well set table, 'Third Rock From The Sun'
Dead men hung, 'Caddilacs and dinosaurs'
hot peanuts and fireworks, a Holocaust" - Warcloud

The Wastrel
22nd March 03, 11:48 PM
They trashed one of Rumsfled's homes? Wow. I HATE that guy, and that's fucked up.

Osiris, you're almost a utilitarian.Interesting. I don't think MLK was a criminal. You can't really be a criminal when your state is that criminal.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Sheol
23rd March 03, 12:17 AM
Osiris:

I recommend that you readjust your moral compass. There is a difference between opposing a political/judicial institution and opposing your fellow citizens. When you make it personal, you are attacking individuals, becoming an enemy of society itself, not just an aspect of its institution. When you cross the line between the two, you are no longer fighting as a member of society, but as an enemy of it. For examples of the result of such behaviour, you only need to look at the Ku Klux Klan and Black Panthers. If you believe that the violence against society is an acceptable means of instituting/preventing change, then you are accepting the consequences.

Sheol
23rd March 03, 12:40 AM
Wastrel:

As you know, the Middle East is mostly composed of monarchies and totalitarian governments. Qatar is no exception, being a monarchy. However, it now has democratically elected municipal councils and women now have the right to vote. Now, Kuwait does have an elected legislature, but women do not have the right to vote, as of yet. Due to the strong tribal factions in Iraq, common throughout the region, a singular central government is important for stability, but Qatar's experiment seems to suggest that localized democratization can be very successfull, especially with improvements in education. The key is to introduce democracy in a gradual manner, allowing the system to consolidate before moving onto the next step. Qatar is certainly a small country, but one can extrapolate the implications.

Osiris
23rd March 03, 03:15 PM
"I recommend that you readjust your moral compass. There is a difference between opposing a political/judicial institution and opposing your fellow citizens. When you make it personal, you are attacking individuals, becoming an enemy of society itself, not just an aspect of its institution."

We ARE society. A minority maybe, but we are a part of society. If you cause no problems, the why would people pay attention. Consider it collateral damage.

"A well set table, 'Third Rock From The Sun'
Dead men hung, 'Caddilacs and dinosaurs'
hot peanuts and fireworks, a Holocaust" - Warcloud

Dibble
25th March 03, 01:24 PM
My 2 pesos : "If you cause no problems, the why would people pay attention".

Question for you: for whom exactly are you creating the problems?

Who ultimately pays the bill?

BTW, Seattle just spent USD1 million to date purely on police overtime. $ that is much needed elsewhere. I think that alone is worth a primal scream or two.


"People who go on about lineage are trying to make up for the
fact that they can't fight." - Steven Plinck

magikchiongson
27th March 03, 10:41 AM
Hehe, our Political troubles with Europe is not difficult to explain. I mean, we have trouble being Civil with our Leftists brothers and sisters here in America, is it really a surprise then that our Right Wing admin can't deal with a heavily leftists Europe?

The Wastrel
27th March 03, 11:11 AM
Chirac and Villepin=leftists?!! Hmmmmm....no. They see an easy opportunity to win the left and to advance France's stature against the U.S. at the same time. Otherwise, they wouldn't give a fuck.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Balloonknot
27th March 03, 11:13 AM
Thank GOD for President BUSH. Finally, a man with some BALLS in the whitehouse!! It's about time. I applaud you Mr. Bush! All hail our commander and chief!!!!

The Wastrel
27th March 03, 11:29 AM
Commander-in-Chief.

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

Osiris
27th March 03, 11:57 AM
"for whom exactly are you creating the problems?"

The government and the people who theyre supposed to represent. If it was just a bunch of people sitting around a table drinking coffee and bitching then who would notice?

"BTW, Seattle just spent USD1 million to date purely on police overtime. $ that is much needed elsewhere."

The money for bombs is needed elsewhere. And those cost a bit more than a mil.

"A well set table, 'Third Rock From The Sun'
Dead men hung, 'Caddilacs and dinosaurs'
hot peanuts and fireworks, a Holocaust" - Warcloud

Balloonknot
27th March 03, 12:24 PM
Thanks for the correction Wasted. Once in a while (very rarely), I do make mistakes.

Balloonknot
27th March 03, 12:55 PM
I hate anti-war hippies. In my town, if you look at the general pro-Sadam protesters you'll see that their mostly ignorant college kids and their unsuccessful failure professors. After all, that's why they teach, because they can't do.

elipson
27th March 03, 01:52 PM
if you look at the general pro-Sadam protesters

Whaaaaa?????

Pro-Sadam?? Are you really THAT ignorant?????

People like you give americans a bad name.

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
-Ghandi

Osiris
27th March 03, 01:58 PM
Someones been listening to too much Rush Limbaugh.

"A well set table, 'Third Rock From The Sun'
Dead men hung, 'Caddilacs and dinosaurs'
hot peanuts and fireworks, a Holocaust" - Warcloud

Justme
27th March 03, 02:17 PM
"Someones been listening to too much Rush Limbaugh."

I like Glenn Beck.

Balloonknot
27th March 03, 02:24 PM
That's right pro-Sadam!!! I said it and I'll stand by it. Like Musselini said, "you're either with us or your against us!" IMHO, you're either for the War or you're for Sadam. Simple as that. Enough said.

Balloonknot
27th March 03, 02:27 PM
By the way Elipson, you're from Canada so you have no right to even comment. Ay. You're country is pro-France so you know what you can do? F-yourself slowly with a door knob! Thank you. You ignorant Canadian.

elipson
27th March 03, 02:43 PM
You calling me ignorant???
oh shit that's funny....

Don't ever run for public office man.

And are you saying Bush is as bas as Musselini?

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
-Ghandi

Balloonknot
27th March 03, 02:54 PM
Yes, you are an ignorant Canadian. What can I say. I see the truth. One day you will too. Canada = pro-France
France = anti-America
Elipson = pro-France, anti-America

You see, simple math.

Ironwave
27th March 03, 03:30 PM
Thank GOD for that a republican was in office when 9/11 happened and not a democrate. The middle east thinks we were a easy target thats why 9/11 happened in the first place. That we will do anything not to get our hands dirty i.e. ( Let Americas people die) That America is all talk and no action! This will show the world not to fuck with our Free way of life !Our commander and chief President BUSH did the right thing. We need to be more offensive, It is time for action no more talk not after 9/11 and I hope we don't stop at -Sadam. There are allot of countries that hate our way of life and some call us there friends, I hope we keep our friends close and our enemies closer. If Bush didn't take any action this country will have ended up like Israel.

Balloonknot
27th March 03, 03:44 PM
Ironwave.... finally, a voice of reason! Amen brother! Other countries have been fukkin with us for a long time. It's time for this dog to hunt! No more talk, no more UN bullcrap, no more wait and see. Time to kick some serious ass! Here's how it should go......

1. cripple IRAQ completely and take their oil.
2. cripple IRAN - take over both countries while were there.
3. cripple Turkey, it's a filthy country anyway.
4. Nuke Korea
5. Nuke France and make the survivor's shave under their arms.
6. China or Russia, I'm not sure yet.
7. Nuke Brazil (let's nip this BJJ crap in the butt).
8. Own the world and sell the survivors into slavery.


Edited by - balloonknot on March 27 2003 14:46:24

Ironwave
27th March 03, 03:57 PM
Ironwave.... finally, a voice of reason! Amen brother! Other countries have been fukkin with us for a long time. It's time for this dog to hunt! No more talk, no more UN bullcrap, no more wait and see. Time to kick some serious ass! Here's how it should go......

1. cripple IRAQ completely and take their oil.
2. cripple IRAN - take over both countries while were there.
3. cripple Turkey, it's a filthy country anyway.
4. Nuke Korea
5. Nuke France and make the survivor's shave under their arms.
6. China or Russia, I'm not sure yet.
7. Nuke Brazil (let's nip this BJJ crap in the butt).
8. Own the world and sell the survivors into slavery.


Edited by - balloonknot on March 27 2003 14:46:24
Amen, balloonknot Amen!

Shura
27th March 03, 03:57 PM
I fyou feel that way, would you like to be out there fighting?

There's something inside me that pulls beneath the surface, consuming...

Ironwave
27th March 03, 04:03 PM
I wish I can be out there to fight! There's something inside me that pulls beneath the surface, consuming? What is it you're wife's cooking LOL!!

Balloonknot
27th March 03, 04:03 PM
Indeed, I called and asked already. But, unfortunately I'm too damn old!!

Justme
27th March 03, 04:46 PM
"There's something inside me that pulls beneath the surface, consuming? "

Boy, do I hear you there. It eats me up watching and not being able to do anything about it but pray, and NOT cause trouble. I stay away from protesters.

magikchiongson
27th March 03, 04:57 PM
OMG, I cream in my pants thinking about all the hot Persian chicks we will have access to for our amusement once we conquer Iran and demand tribute.

What do you think Iran's tribute payment should be? 1,000,000 Barrels of Oil a year, 1,500 Virgins (female) a year, 1,000,000 tons of heroin a year, and what else you guys want?

Balloonknot
27th March 03, 05:07 PM
I think a million barrels a day would be more helpful.

Osiris
27th March 03, 06:17 PM
"I like Glenn Beck."

You have just lost ALL credibility.


"A well set table, 'Third Rock From The Sun'
Dead men hung, 'Caddilacs and dinosaurs'
hot peanuts and fireworks, a Holocaust" - Warcloud