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View Full Version : Would You Torture a Terrorists to obtain Info?



magikchiongson
4th March 03, 09:46 AM
Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was recently arrested in Pakistan. He is believed to be one of the top ranked Al-Qaeda leadership and the man responsible for many of the plots, including WTC attack. He also looks unusually like Ron Jeremy (look at his pic if you haven't already)

This guy probably knows a wealth of information as to who's who in the Al Qaeda world, and probably knows plans already set into motion and even possibly the location of many Al Qaeda members including Osama Bin Laden. Also he will probably not volunteer any information willingly. Knowing all this, would you torture this guy to pry information from him?

Me? Hell yah, I would peel off his fingernails, boil his eyes, beat him, make him watch Britney Spears videos, Chinese Water Torture! Ahem, but that's just me, what about you?

Osiris
4th March 03, 09:50 AM
Yeh. We need to know WHY Bush is so intent in causing terror.

"A well set table, 'Third Rock From The Sun'
Dead men hung, 'Caddilacs and dinosaurs'
hot peanuts and fireworks, a Holocaust" - Warcloud

SLJ
4th March 03, 09:57 AM
Just shoot him in the foot, I reckon the fucker will talk after that. If he doesn't shoot the other one.

No need for finger nail pulling, errr makes me feel ill.

----------------------------------------------------------
Space may be the final frontier,
But it's made in a Hollywood basement.

SamHarber
4th March 03, 10:17 AM
I understand that the main reason for having him interogated in Pakistan instead of within US jurisdiction is one of deniability. Pakistan can quite happily torture him to some degree, and nobody will care because Pakistan has always tortured people. He has already spilled some important information (allegedly) and I doubt that they did this purely through harsh language and sleep deprivation.
I'm in two minds about the acceptibility of torture. We all know 'he done it' and we need to get the information, but in the seventies several irishmen who were arrested 'because we know they done it' were tortured/beaten to get a confession. They were years later proven innocent of everything apart from being Irish.

Deadpan Scientist
4th March 03, 10:51 AM
Does truth serum count as torture?

Greese
4th March 03, 10:55 AM
Hell yes.

SamHarber
4th March 03, 11:03 AM
I think that legally, it doesn't count, as the US consideres it acceptable for interogation (may need a court order to be used though, not sure)

Fisting Kittens
4th March 03, 11:09 AM
info obtained with sodium pentathol is not admissible in court, but...um...well...who fucking cares about court?

magikchiongson
4th March 03, 11:10 AM
Osiris is just player hatin on Bush =P

Balloonknot
4th March 03, 11:17 AM
I hope we go to WAR. I would pull off his fingernails one by one first. Then, I would rip off his eye lashes, Next, I would pull out his toenails (mind you, all this would be done in a very slow, methodical, and medieval way) Then, I would start cutting off his toes one by one and then fingers one by one. Then the fun starts, pull out his hair (on his head) strand by strand, start buttfucking him with rifle, start cutting pieces of his flesh and fat off his body. I could go on all day!!



They call me:
"The Money Shot Guru"

Chiburi
4th March 03, 11:31 AM
Guys, dont be fooled into thinking America doesn't torture its *suspects*. Just 'cause they aint admitting it publicly doesn't mean they aint doing it privately. Patriot Act effectively means Bush can BushFuck whoever he wants, whenever he wants.

Anyway I know I'm gonna get flamed by all the pro-war lobby... but who gives a fuck. ;)

magikchiongson
4th March 03, 11:33 AM
Heaven forbid they deprive Terrorists of sleep... we evil torturers. Bondage Fetish peps get tortured more than these Al Qaeda guys.

Vargas
4th March 03, 11:35 AM
Believe it or not, physical torture is the least effective means for getting information. The dude will basically start telling you any damn thing you want to hear to make the pain stop. The best way to get information out of someone is just sitting across a table and bullshitting with him. Get the guy talking about anything he wants. Sooner or later, you'll start getting the details you need. Yeah, it's time-consuming but it's way better than all the other methods. Chemicals are risky and not like they are portrayed in the movies. Getting a guy drunk would probably loosen his tongue up as much as sodium pentathol would.

"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"

SamHarber
4th March 03, 11:42 AM
Ballonknot... you lack imagination.
Cutting off digits is so passe...

Use a vice, on one digit at a time, slowly increasing the pressure until it eventually gets pulped.
Then put him in a sandpaper lined straight jacket (nice loose fit) and play the Britney videos to make him thrash about.

Fatality Dragon
4th March 03, 11:43 AM
Balloon, is that the best you can do?

Would anyone like to hear how I would torture this guy? :-D

Just throw rock at it and it will go away.

"I would rather admit I am a lousy student than say I am the best, because once you think you are the best, there is no reason to continue learning."

Chiburi
4th March 03, 11:44 AM
If thats all you think your government does, deprive these *poor* terrorists of sleep, then you need to wake up from all your brainwashing.

Understand I have NO love for terrorists and couldn't give a fuck about their rights BUT I also aint so stupid to think that Bush and his cronies are only depriving these fuckers of there sleep, ButtFucking them with rifles is probably only the begining.

Fatality Dragon
4th March 03, 11:54 AM
LMAO! Buttfucking with rifle is most common method of torturing. I am pretty sure that every POW have experienced it at LEAST once.

Vargas, how do you know about obatining information from enemy?



Just throw rock at it and it will go away.

"I would rather admit I am a lousy student than say I am the best, because once you think you are the best, there is no reason to continue learning."

Deadpan Scientist
4th March 03, 12:49 PM
Chiburi: you have any evidence for any of your claims?

I agree with vargas, it's stupid to use physical pain. They'll just tell you what you want to hear. You have to turn them against their former comrades.

magikchiongson
4th March 03, 02:42 PM
I doubt Chiburi has any evidence, he's just one of those peps who are convinced we are doing something wrong with the Terrorists eventhough there's no proof.

They think sleep deprivation, hooding them, and tying them up is torture... Just silly stuff.

Boyd
4th March 03, 03:43 PM
While I don't have any personal objections to sodomizing terrorists with fire crackers, I DO have objections to my government torturing "enemies of the state" in order to obtain information. Who the government considers to be an "enemy" can become a very broad demographic sometimes, and I sure as hell don't want them to have the power to be force-feeding me my testicles. Something about that doesn't seem right.

http://www.liquidspin.com/webcams/indorock/Hate.jpg

matzahbal
4th March 03, 03:52 PM
Torture the person only if you know 100 percent that he has the information you think he has, other than that it's like Vargas said, after so much the guy will say he's mother theresa and he bakes muffins for KFC

"But some apes they gotta go, so we kill the ones we don't know" - 'Ape shall never kill Ape' by The Vandals

FingerorMoon?
4th March 03, 04:30 PM
Force him to do TMA.

Sorry....I couldn't help it.

--------
Make friends with them until they beg for mercy.
--------

Chiburi
4th March 03, 04:38 PM
No, I dont have any *evidence* but its a well known fact that the U S of A has one corrupt mofo of a government, I guess I should include the UK as well. I aint arguing with no one or trolling just stating my opinion. Agree/Disagree with me, its your choice and I respect that.

I'm quite interested in what our governments get up to and the simply fact is if you do some honest independant research, you will see that you are lied to by the government time and time again.

Anyway do you have any evidence that what I'm saying isn't true? what? just because Bush or some other politician tells you he's telling you the truth? pppplease! I just dont take every word spoken by politicians to be the gospel truth. Independent thought and analysis is a powerful tool for all of us.

...and just to state it again, I couldn't give a fuck about a terrorists rights just as long as you know 100% that this person is guilty. Suspicion or wrong skin colour doesn't give the governement the right to take away this person's human rights and do whatever the fuck they want with them.

:) hehe rant over. Flame away!

Deadpan Scientist
4th March 03, 05:06 PM
No, I dont have any *evidence* but


Oh.



Anyway do you have any evidence that what I'm saying isn't true?


I at least have the Geneva convention. Surely the famed and respected international community wouldn't keep quiet on an opportunity to bash America...

So I have a treaty, and you don't even have a fart in the wind of evidence.

Basically you believe in "guilty until proven innocent", but only when it applies to governments. That's pretty hypocritical.

By the way, you just got...
http://www.alcofielen.com/pics/forumpics/owned/ownedcamp.jpg

SamHarber
4th March 03, 05:18 PM
Lets face it. We know that it happens in the UK (especially if you're irish). Its hardly a stretch of the imagination to guess that it happens in the USA.

Nihilanthic
4th March 03, 05:27 PM
As far as terrorists go, I'd say tell the terrorist he'd be given to the Israelis if he didn't talk. He'd start talking REAL fast.

Those Israelis are quite apt at torture, and while I do not speak from experience I know someone who would (not from the side of the terrorist, but someone who's been in isreal to train them).

Some criminal under investigation should have his rights mantained, yes, but a terrorist who knows about things that are about to happen where thousands could die, I have no qualms about smacking him around or getting mideval on him.


And now for something completely different - I wonder if Bob Sapp could get a job as an interrogator. Just looking at him would scare a lot of guys. Or tank, liquored up of course.

<Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
<John> I'd have to smack you sometime...

Fatality Dragon
4th March 03, 05:31 PM
I think we should just talk to them first. After we get all information, just torture them to make sure they didn't hide anything. Just torture them to death and let their enemies to see it, so it will lower their morale.

Just throw rock at it and it will go away.

"I would rather admit I am a lousy student than say I am the best, because once you think you are the best, there is no reason to continue learning."

jkd_fighter
4th March 03, 05:40 PM
i would take him to work and put his thing in a waffle iron. then i would stick his hand in a deepfryer.

Fatality Dragon
4th March 03, 05:45 PM
I would say rub his body across hot jagged rocks until his skin brust open due to being so dry and cutted up then soak his body with water. Once he is soaked with water, cover his body with salt, baking powder, cayanne powder, etc... Deep fry him from chest and down just so it is enough to fry him but keep him a live and let animals eat him while he is still alive. In front of all of terrorist who is a prisoner too so they will know that they are the next.

(If this is too sick then let me know and I will delete it)

Just throw rock at it and it will go away.

"I would rather admit I am a lousy student than say I am the best, because once you think you are the best, there is no reason to continue learning."

Osiris
4th March 03, 06:11 PM
"No, I dont have any *evidence* but its a well known fact that the U S of A has one corrupt mofo of a government, I guess I should include the UK as well."

This HAS been proven.

"Basically you believe in "guilty until proven innocent", but only when it applies to governments."

The US has definitely been preven guilty.

"I aint arguing with no one"

Squall? You still there? :-)

"A well set table, 'Third Rock From The Sun'
Dead men hung, 'Caddilacs and dinosaurs'
hot peanuts and fireworks, a Holocaust" - Warcloud

Nihilanthic
4th March 03, 06:45 PM
What government isn't corrupt?

<Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
<John> I'd have to smack you sometime...

Osiris
4th March 03, 06:51 PM
Does that mean it should be accepted? If we go to war supposedly to destroy another corrupt government then we should be on the up and up ourselves. It starts at home.

"A well set table, 'Third Rock From The Sun'
Dead men hung, 'Caddilacs and dinosaurs'
hot peanuts and fireworks, a Holocaust" - Warcloud

Freddy
4th March 03, 07:41 PM
I dont know about torture. It goes both ways. I do respect the Geneva convention and the like. If you want to know what torture is go to third world countries like El Salvador and the like. Theres even a book written by a former CIA operative who left after they were involved with torture. "Diary of a CIA Agent" I believe it wa called.

"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"

Nihilanthic
4th March 03, 07:41 PM
Frankly, any government will be corrupt to some degree, no matter what. Its not something that could be gotten rid of without society itself changing, including everyone in it. I'm far from being proud of it, of course. I think the USA should go back to how the founding fathers had it, but with changes to suit internationalism in politics and trade, of course. Thomas Jefferson is a role model of mine.

My own views on a war with Iraq is that sooner or later it would come to another exchange, and that if done now (or he just disarms and everyone goes home, which I would MUCH prefer) he would have less weapons (and less sold to terrorists) than he would years down the road. Right or wrong, think about it... either Saddam Croaks or he is killed.

The administration would try to minimise any civilian casualites, because of either their own conscience or public opinion (or both). I also doubt military planners would want to kill the civilians. Also, I've heard plenty about how much the people of Iraq don't like Saddam and that they'd like him being removed. I really think any threats of the whole middle east rising up against "the infidels" is bunk, and with as much internal strife existing in the middle east as there is, they'd probably like having a strongman killed off. As long as their own regimes are not hurt, they could not care less. "Arab unity" does not exist.

Yes, it is about Oil. France has a lot of money in Iraq, in one way or another. So do many other countries that are against a war. I REALLY doubt the USA would try to get monopoly on Iraqui oil, especially with the outcry from the Iraqui people, and possible economic sanctions if its done despite a global outcry.

BOTH sides have moral arguements for their opinion, and BOTH have a lot of money at stake. Its not a cut and dry issue. Its a matter of which outcome would be the best, post war or no war (for now at least).

Personally, I'd think a war now would be better than putting it off, becuase I think it would degenerate into one down the road. If Iraq Disarmed, and the UN was there to enforce it (and troops were nearby should it be defied again) it would be preferrable, but Saddam would still be in power. I'm not swayed that its not good to get rid of him if 1. We can 2. He's an asshole 3. the Iraqi's wouldnt mind him dead.

Might makes right, unfortunately. War is about who is left, not who is right. It may seem callous but unless the world cares about me the world can suck it. The world is just a bunch of nations caring about themselves sharing one planet, right now. If France could benefit and Germany's expence they'd be fighting like dogs right now. The USA may not be perfect or noncorrupt, but in 2004 we get new leadership (unless our voters have a massive brain fart).

<Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
<John> I'd have to smack you sometime...

Osiris
4th March 03, 07:48 PM
"in 2004 we get new leadership (unless our voters have a massive brain fart)."

We do? What we really get is rule by either the democratic or republican party. We dont just elect 2 people. We really elect the whole party.

"A well set table, 'Third Rock From The Sun'
Dead men hung, 'Caddilacs and dinosaurs'
hot peanuts and fireworks, a Holocaust" - Warcloud

Nihilanthic
4th March 03, 07:49 PM
Yeah, true. But depending on how the voters feel about issues, the party will change their stance. They have to guarantee votes in the next election...

<Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
<John> I'd have to smack you sometime...

Osiris
4th March 03, 07:53 PM
Still, they never really change do they? Has anyone here wondered how these two groups maintained control over the country since forever? They CANT be legit.

"A well set table, 'Third Rock From The Sun'
Dead men hung, 'Caddilacs and dinosaurs'
hot peanuts and fireworks, a Holocaust" - Warcloud

Chiburi
4th March 03, 07:55 PM
Brand,

dude - why so worked up? Its just an opinion - mine - you dont like it then go download some more 'oh so funny' pictures and photoshop them, real creative! ;) .

I aint saying 'guilty until proven innocent', just saying do a little research, get your head out of the sand. Dont believe everything your told by your 'not really voted in' President. Anyway 'guilty until proven innocent' is what the Patriot Act is all about, sure works for your government.

'I at least have the Geneva convention. Surely the famed and respected international community wouldn't keep quiet on an opportunity to bash America...'

...uhm? America dont give a fuck...! shit, you think they care what the international community think? They/You are going to war no matter what the fuck the UN/International Community think or say... so you think they give a fuck about some convention?

Hehe you need to be de-programmed, free and enlighten your mind! Watch what unfolds over the next few weeks and THEN tell me America gives a shit about the UN/International Community. President BushWhack is going to war NO MATTER WHAT.

Should I be saying you're OWN3D now? j/k ;)

Remember just an opinion.

Osiris
4th March 03, 07:58 PM
Were going to get along well I think.

"A well set table, 'Third Rock From The Sun'
Dead men hung, 'Caddilacs and dinosaurs'
hot peanuts and fireworks, a Holocaust" - Warcloud

Nihilanthic
4th March 03, 08:05 PM
They get in power because they get votes. All the corrpution can only occur after they are voted into office. Everyone grows up being a "democrat" or a "republican". PR means everything. Money buys votes by the politicians, it doesn't buy them an office.

Another problem is that special interest groups can often hijack a party (the christian right, for one. ESPECIALLY that a vote against them is a vote against "family values")

One thing that you are wrong about is that they DO change, albeit over decades of changing politics. Our current political system involves the leading party doing their thing, the other party being "anti-leading party" (not conservative vs liberal, they overlap a bit)... when what that leading party does fails, everyone votes the other way. It pretty much repeats itself over and over. The republicans were originally the "Radical republicans", voting for rights of the newly freed black men during the reconstruction! Amazing what a hundred years and the Christian Right can do...

All this anti-them-ness aside, each party has a core set of values, that while not always followed, are good. The republicans WERE for self-choice, self responsibilty, and small govt. Democrats WERE for more government control, government programs, and social programs (but not socialism). Its since degenerated into us vs them bullshit, and special insterest stupidity.

Personally I think both parties can stick it, neither party wholly agrees with my own views. Now that I'm old enough to vote (about a month after the last election, in december) I'll vote based on which candidate I agree with most, or would do the most good according to what I believe in. Thats all we can do right now. The votes sustain corruption.

<Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
<John> I'd have to smack you sometime...

Chiburi
4th March 03, 08:07 PM
Osiris,

;) I just aint brainwashed, thats all.

peeps think that means I'm pro-terrorism or some shit...that is bullshit! I hate/deplor terrorism but sometimes things just aren't as clear as black and white, there are many shades of grey in between.

Nihilanthic
4th March 03, 08:11 PM
Chiburi - sure, we'll question what Bush says. But for now, lets question what YOU say. I don't trust either "Side" of the fence, sir (assuming you are a man, I suck at guessing gender). I'm not about to be programmed by you.

Regarding this "international community" - wouldn't ANY nation do the same thing? YES! There is no "planet police" to make everyone get along, its who has the bigger stick/influence. This "international community" right now amounts to the leadership of old europe wanting to do different from what the US did just to make a point that they can do their own thing. No, I'm not taking any side, but its definitely what it looks like.

Just to head off anyone saying "why not <Whoever> instead Iraq right now" Easy! Its easier to do Iraq now. Its a good "baby step". We also already have troops there. Moving around an army takes a while, and a lot of money.

<Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
<John> I'd have to smack you sometime...

Osiris
4th March 03, 08:15 PM
"I'll vote based on which candidate I agree with most, or would do the most good according to what I believe in. Thats all we can do right now."

It's really time for a regime change. What we need is someone in office who's cold enough in a Machiavellian way to do what needs to be done (like Bush), but intelligent enough to do it correctly (NOT LIKE BUSH!!!). This political game needs to end. Its destructive and leads to insane amounts of corruption.

"A well set table, 'Third Rock From The Sun'
Dead men hung, 'Caddilacs and dinosaurs'
hot peanuts and fireworks, a Holocaust" - Warcloud

Chiburi
4th March 03, 08:29 PM
I aint saying there is a "Planet Police" and I sure aren't trying to program anyone. Like I have to keep repeating its just an opinion.

My point is simply this : There are too many peeps out there who think that America can do no wrong, that America wound not torture its prisoners, that America is whiter than white. All I'm saying is that things aren't quite what they seem, America (just like all governments) has many levels of corruption and ulterior motives.

The whole thing about the "international community" was just to prove to Brand that America does not play by the rules laid out via the international community, hence they sure as hell aren't going to worry about no convention (privately of course, publicaly is another matter), hell you could say its a rogue nation ;)

Seriously though this is a forum and I'm just putting in my 2 pennies..er..cents! Dont get so worked up over it.

...and yes I am a Man...though I'm sure many here will argue that point!

now repeat after me...

...I am not being programmed....
...I am not being programmed....
...I am not being programmed....
...I am not being programmed....
...etc....

Nihilanthic
4th March 03, 08:35 PM
I agree! A LOT! But its not gonna happen overnight, so damage control is the best bet for now.

Ma·chi·a·vel·li·an
adj.

1. Of or relating to Machiavelli or Machiavellianism.
2. Suggestive of or characterized by expediency, deceit, and cunning.

My kind of style.

We really need someone charismatic, with an IQ over 140, a good understanding of history, nice hair (its a must), and a itchy trigger finger. Not that he'd press it, but that he likes to scratch it publically. If we got a problem just deal with it. Quit pussyfooting around.


<Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
<John> I'd have to smack you sometime...

Osiris
4th March 03, 08:40 PM
...I am not being programmed....
...I am not being programmed....
...I am not being programmed....
...I am not being programmed....
...I am not *Wait a minute!!*

"A well set table, 'Third Rock From The Sun'
Dead men hung, 'Caddilacs and dinosaurs'
hot peanuts and fireworks, a Holocaust" - Warcloud

Vargas
4th March 03, 11:35 PM
Hmm, a president with a high IQ, a good understanding of history, itchy trigger finger and charisma. If you leave out the good hair, I'd say you just described Richard Nixon, Mr. Machiavelli-on-the-Potomac himself. Yeah, he was a bastard but he was a tricky bastard and he drove the Soviets crazy.

"Go cry about it Vargas. Aren't you late for your shift at McDonald's?"

Deadpan Scientist
5th March 03, 12:49 AM
Osiris: I'll be your vice president. Lets run on the United Martial Arts Party platform.

elipson
5th March 03, 01:02 AM
Ya someone should send a copy of "The Prince" to bush, and maybe "discourses on levy" too, but I doubt he could finish the first one, being more then 50 pages and all :)


I think we should just talk to them first. After we get all information, just torture them to make sure they didn't hide anything. Just torture them to death and let their enemies to see it, so it will lower their morale.
Dude, dude, dude.
nonononononononNONONONONONONONONONO!!!!
Very bad idea!!! Its easy to think that way, but its not how things work.
Making it known to ALQ that you're gonna torture them will do several things.
1) It will scare the shit out of them so much that they will NEVER surrender, ever! They will fight on regardless of how shitty there conditions are. If they believe that giving up will result in them getting a decent meal, some warm clothes, and a way to survive all this crap, I would bet there would be many who would be tempted to surrender (definetly not all, but maybe the more cowardly types). If you scare the hell outta them, they are just gonna fight twice as hard because they know surrendering is worse then any death in Battle.
2) It will instill them with not so much fear, but instead hatred. Fear can be a great thing in war, it immobilizes people and makes then easier to control, but hatred is the opposite. It encourages and inspires people to fight on no matter what, and to do courageous things in battle. They already hate us, but we shouldn't add too it.

On the torture thing, I would support it if it were about nukes, or some black plague disease that could wipe everyone of the planet. The trouble is, as someone already stated, who determines the enemies of the state? It needs limits.

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
-Ghandi

Osiris
5th March 03, 01:12 AM
Machiavelli said that those who do not fear death can easily cause it. Interesting.

"A well set table, 'Third Rock From The Sun'
Dead men hung, 'Caddilacs and dinosaurs'
hot peanuts and fireworks, a Holocaust" - Warcloud

Sheol
5th March 03, 05:53 PM
Folks, understand that a person who has embraced death as a means of attaining a reward is NOT your typical threat. A person willing to die in order to inflict harm is more likely to succeed, because personal survival is never required in any plan. If you have studied military history, you will note that fanaticism changes the dynamics of battle. Whether they were fanatical Muslims or fanatical Christians, you must take the willingness to die into consideration.

Saddam Hussein's troops are, for the most part, not fanatics. Terrorists, such as most of those that are part of HAMAS, are fanatics.

Freddy
5th March 03, 07:28 PM
Very true indeed Sheol!

"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"

elipson
8th March 03, 02:17 AM
Ya I agree Sheol. Last war, most of saddams troops surrendered en-masse.

But you cant scare fanatics, you gotta kill em!

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
-Ghandi

Mercurius
8th March 03, 03:14 AM
Not necessarily. In World War 2, a few nuts hiding in the jungle for 40 years aside, when the Emperor said, "Hey guys, surrender," lo and behold most of the Japanese fanatics surrendered (or committed seppuku).

The point is, fanaticism has a root. For the Japanese, that root was the Emperor. For the Islamic fanatics, it is likely something else, but the solution is similar-- strike at the root.

-------------------------
Clap your hands everybody,
if you got what it takes
'Cause I'm Kurtis Blow
and I want you to know
that these are the breaks!

9chambers
8th March 03, 07:54 AM
The Islamic radicals believe it is a "Holy War" or a "jihad" .. take away the "Holy" and all you have is war. I guess you have to convince them that their leaders are just as bad as they think ours are. I guess, show them that Osama is a power hungry creep somehow and you've got a case.

Saddam, that is a little more easy. He tried to invade Kuwait for oil. Osama, I'm not sure.

SamHarber
8th March 03, 11:50 AM
It recently occured to me why Bush has been pushing the WMD/terrorism angle on attacking Iraq.
We all know this is a fairly bogus reason, but we agree that Saddam and the Ba'ath party need to be removed from power. However, if Bush and Blair actually say that they're trying to rid the world of a tinpot dictator who has abused his own people for years and threatened others (basically all the right reasons for going to war), then they open themselves up to having to deal in the same way with all the other tinpot dictators in Africa, South America, Asia etc...
Seeing as many of these are still good friends of the US and UK, its probably less politically damaging to trump up some charges that can never really be proved against Iraq.
Apologies if everybody already knows this, but just forgot to tell me.

9chambers
8th March 03, 04:01 PM
Saddam murdered like 2/3 of his own congress on national TV .. he said they weren't loyal and had the other 1/3 of his congress act as the firing squad.

I think he does oppress his own people.

Freddy
8th March 03, 05:33 PM
Its not only muslim that are fanatics. Nevermind we have Christian fanatics right under our noses blowing up abortion clinics and what not. Not to forget The Branch Davidians and their ilk.

"Do what thou wilt is the whole of the Law"