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View Full Version : See, what were we thinking going into Iraq?



gr81disp
16th October 04, 11:50 AM
Mass grave of women and children uncovered in Iraq
Forensic experts hope evidence will help convict Saddam Hussein

By Agence France Presse (AFP)

Thursday, October 14, 2004



HATRA, Iraq: Forensic experts digging for evidence against ousted Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein have carried out their first full exhumation of a mass grave filled with the skeletons of scores of women and children, many shot in the back of the head.

"This is all women and children. We have taken in excess of 120 bodies out of there," said U.S. investigator Greg Kehoe as he stood over one of nine trenches piled with bones and scraps of clothes and jewelry near the northern Iraqi town of Hatra.

Among the dead are pregnant women, even a young boy still clutching his ball, whose bodies were ploughed into their earthen tombs by bulldozers.

"This is something in the time I've been doing mass graves I've never seen done before," said Kehoe, a lawyer who has also worked in the Balkans.

The bodies are believed to be those of hundreds of Kurds killed by Saddam's feared regime in a deadly campaign in 1987 and 1988, for which the toppled Iraqi leader is facing trial on charges of crimes against humanity.

"These bodies were just pushed in. It was all women and children. No men. All these people were executed with small arms fire ... (It) includes pregnant woman," said Kehoe.

There are about 40 known mass graves in Iraq containing possibly tens thousands of bodies dumped by Saddam Hussein's regime.

But exhumation has in many cases been a free-for-all, with relatives searching for loved ones in the early days after the fall of Baghdad accidentally destroying or tampering with evidence that could be used against Saddam.

Kehoe and a team of U.S., British and Iraqi forensic experts are now conducting full scientific exhumations to preserve hard evidence, uncovering the ghastly horrors of the old regime.

Saddam, who first appeared before a court in July, faces seven charges including the 1987-88 offensive that saw Kurdish villages razed in northern Iraq and the gassing of the village of Halabja, which left 5,000 people dead.

Kehoe said the Hatra grave was the first to be exhumed according to international standards since his appointment last December, but said his team hopes to work on another 10 sites.

"Were trying to meet international standards that have been accepted by courts throughout the world," Kehoe said. "One woman when she was executed was carrying her two-year old child, shot in the back of the head. She was shot in the face," he said.

The former U.S. prosecutor's voice cracked as he showed slides of some of the victims.

"This is a young boy with a ball, still holding onto the ball when we uncovered him ... This is the little ball he was holding onto, you see his little arm right here, this little ball, this little arm, this little boy." In the end, he hopes to be able to identify the bodies and return them to families.

"Everybody said never again after the Holocaust. The world wasn't listening. That's how it happened again and again and again." He said he thinks often about the piles of children's bones he has seen in the dirt.

"Sometimes, you go in there, you see soldiers, and it's not to justify it, but my God, little babies, women, with their children shot in the back of the head ... Why?"



http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article...article_id=9246

:mad:

But of course that doesn't matter because we didn't find enough WMDs (we have found some)

Deadpan Scientist
16th October 04, 12:07 PM
gr81disp, please read and follow the Must Read guildelines for this forum. You need to provide some kind of insightful commentary, or discussion of the validity of the claims made in the article you post.

This is a discussion forum, not a news service.

Deadpan Scientist
16th October 04, 12:08 PM
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10580

There is the link. Please note that there will be punishment for non-compliance, and this is your first and last warning.

The_Ghost
16th October 04, 12:46 PM
So you think it's cool to send in our troops to take this dictator out? I'm never going to say that's a bad thing...but I will say this.

The fact is that Mr. Bush told us we were going in to protect our people from WOMD and to protect us from another 9/11 attack.

Now they find out "Oh no! We couldn't sell our lies to the american people for too long." So Mr.Bush comes up with all these other facts and ideas to justify his intervention. Congratulations my friend, you've done nothing more than allowed his lies to continue on. And guess what? You've been duped.

But let me say this as well, there are plenty (PLENTY) of countries in the world that require immediate aid. We didn't give them much, and we definetely didn't give them support to work things out. Why? Because we didn't care, Bush is in Iraq for oil...nothing more. He doesn't care about the people, he cares about his investments.

Let's take a peak at Iran whose about to throw itself into revolution. Or better yet let's look at Sudan whose warlords are starving the people while they remain in a civil war like state. Or Thailand with its child prostitution and mass murdering drug wars. While were on the drug problem, let's discuss South American countries like Colombia whose 20+ minor drug cartels manage to make more than the tobacco companies in America. Hell, while were at it let's look at our own country and recognize that our budget deficit is about to send us into another Great Depression. Or the fact that we still have 20+ million people using illegal drugs and supporting those cartels in South America.

...my point is we got plenty of problems all over the place. Why did he pick Iraq? Because it was a convenient target after Afghanistan and he wants their oil. Stop kidding yourself.

SRK85
16th October 04, 02:08 PM
Yea first we have to correct our problems at home before we should be trying to fix the world. Who cares about Iraq?

Deadpan Scientist
16th October 04, 03:09 PM
If he just wanted the oil why not just lift the sanctions? Seems like that would be a lot easier.

DJeter1234
16th October 04, 03:22 PM
cause OPEC jacks up the price anyway. just a theoretical, though, i don't actually beleive we exclusively went in for oil.

Boyd
16th October 04, 03:23 PM
But of course that doesn't matter because we didn't find enough WMDs (we have found some)

You're absolutely right. It doesn't matter, because every single day horrific atrocities occur in dozens of differenty nations, and yet the US stands by and does nothing. The reason we invaded Iraq was because Saddam Hussein was supposed to pose a threat to national security, not because it's our solemn duty to be an ass-kicking globetrotter hunting down bad guys and telling them how to run their country.

Shuma-Gorath
16th October 04, 03:34 PM
It baffles me that they could find the fleeing dictator in a hole and couldn't just send guys in to kill him and his sons in the first place. Then again, Castro still lives after five or so attemps on his life.

CaptShady
16th October 04, 05:26 PM
It kills me that the "Bush lies about WMD's" still comes up. Pushing this bull, acting like Bush was all, "Hmm, let's see, I want to attack Iraq, so I'll con all of congress with a lie that S.H. has WMD's". FACT of the matter is, Clinton, Gore, Kerry, Edwards all have quotes ON THE RECORD, prior to 9/11, prior to Bush's taking office, believing that he had them. Yet we went to war over "Bush lies". Fucking pathetic bunch of b.s. I suppose you also believe that Kerry will 1) make sure that 100% of the U.S. population has medical coverage 2) kerry will zero out the deficit 3) will "fix" social security 4) will "win" in Iraq and get out 5) will bring back all exported jobs 6) will rid the U.S. and the rest of the world of Nukes 7) will increase the number of troops in Iraq 8) will get rid of stop loss... all without raising taxes. That's just rich. Bush lies?? You think Kerry's not telling a dozen or two doozies?

Osiris
16th October 04, 05:32 PM
Bush took things a few steps further than just claiming that he had them. They farbicated, or made use of fabricated, documents, claiming that they had photos, that they knew exacvt locations, that despite CIA denial, they were using bening weaponry and the like to make nukes and shit. They lied. Blatantly. Theres a difference between "Oh, we think he has weapons" and "Theyre right here. See this? This is a nuke plant. This is where he keeps his anthrax"

Anyway, as far as mass graves go, I think the US could fill a few right about now.

CaptShady
16th October 04, 05:43 PM
Bush took things a few steps further than just claiming that he had them. They farbicated, or made use of fabricated, documents, claiming that they had photos, that they knew exacvt locations, that despite CIA denial, they were using bening weaponry and the like to make nukes and shit. They lied. Blatantly. Theres a difference between "Oh, we think he has weapons" and "Theyre right here. See this? This is a nuke plant. This is where he keeps his anthrax"

Anyway, as far as mass graves go, I think the US could fill a few right about now.

WOW!!! That would have been GREAT stuff for Kerry to use during the debates!!! I wonder why he didn't?

Osiris
16th October 04, 05:49 PM
I don't know or care, honestly. Fuck all these assoles.

PeedeeShaolin
16th October 04, 08:34 PM
You're full of crap Shady.

Richard Clarke, the head of counter terrorism at the time, gave a TV interview where he tells a funny story.

He comes in to work and tells Donald Rumsfeld that the people who were responsible for 9/11 were hiding in Afghanistan. Rumsfeld then tells him that there are no good targets in Afghanistan and that we should BOMB IRAQ. Clarke then tells Rumsfeld that "Iraq had nothing to do with this" and then Clarke says that fact didn't seem to matter.

He also says that the President "ina very intimidating way" told them he wanted them to dig up dirt on Iraq and get back to him. This was BEFORE the invasion of Afghanistan.

Right after that Mr. Rove and his band of cronies did a wonderful job of character assasination against Clarke. You probably didn't follow it closely and so it wasn't obvious to you. Clarke was extremely respected before they decided to black ball him.

PeedeeShaolin
16th October 04, 08:36 PM
Anyway, as far as mass graves go, I think the US could fill a few right about now

CURSE that MADMAN Hussein for killing those Iraqi civillians! Thats OUR JOB GODDAMMIT! USA!

Hey, didnt the USA kill over half a MILLION of its OWN PEOPLE during our OWN civil war not to mention god knows how many more in Vietnam and countless other places?

At least Iraq is so much SAFER and FREE now.

Boyd
16th October 04, 09:07 PM
It kills me that the "Bush lies about WMD's" still comes up. Pushing this bull, acting like Bush was all, "Hmm, let's see, I want to attack Iraq, so I'll con all of congress with a lie that S.H. has WMD's". FACT of the matter is, Clinton, Gore, Kerry, Edwards all have quotes ON THE RECORD, prior to 9/11, prior to Bush's taking office, believing that he had them. Yet we went to war over "Bush lies". Fucking pathetic bunch of b.s. I suppose you also believe that Kerry will 1) make sure that 100% of the U.S. population has medical coverage 2) kerry will zero out the deficit 3) will "fix" social security 4) will "win" in Iraq and get out 5) will bring back all exported jobs 6) will rid the U.S. and the rest of the world of Nukes 7) will increase the number of troops in Iraq 8) will get rid of stop loss... all without raising taxes. That's just rich. Bush lies?? You think Kerry's not telling a dozen or two doozies?

Oh yeah!!!!!!! Like remember during the debates when Kerry said he'd have mandatory government healthcare, promised to permanently end outsourcing, end war, AND stop loss?!

And yes, Peedee's right. There was definite and deliberate fabrication on the part of the administration. There's a difference between reading a memo and saying "Iraq probably has WMDs" and getting on television to say "here is a picture of Iraq's WMDs" (later revealed to be a sunshine factory). There was also a definite and deliberate switch from "fighting to make America safe" to "fighting to make a nation of half-insane subhuman animals safe".

I fucking hate Iraqis.

The_Ghost
17th October 04, 12:21 AM
It kills me that the "Bush lies about WMD's" still comes up. Pushing this bull, acting like Bush was all, "Hmm, let's see, I want to attack Iraq, so I'll con all of congress with a lie that S.H. has WMD's". FACT of the matter is, Clinton, Gore, Kerry, Edwards all have quotes ON THE RECORD, prior to 9/11, prior to Bush's taking office, believing that he had them. Yet we went to war over "Bush lies". Fucking pathetic bunch of b.s. I suppose you also believe that Kerry will 1) make sure that 100% of the U.S. population has medical coverage 2) kerry will zero out the deficit 3) will "fix" social security 4) will "win" in Iraq and get out 5) will bring back all exported jobs 6) will rid the U.S. and the rest of the world of Nukes 7) will increase the number of troops in Iraq 8) will get rid of stop loss... all without raising taxes. That's just rich. Bush lies?? You think Kerry's not telling a dozen or two doozies?
I've all ready seen Bush fuck up...would I rather try someone new or let him fuck up again?

CaptShady you speak because your a fat dumbshit whose ass sits around on Bullshido all day sending out nonsensical crap large enough to fertilize the Nile. I'm coming from the viewpoint of a soldier in the United States Army. Its my ass going to Iraq next year. So talk all the shit you want because you don't have to deal with it, I'd like to know why I'm going over. And "Dethroning a Dictator" is not good enough, we could have done that in a day with our technology and special forces.

CaptShady
17th October 04, 12:41 AM
Ghost .. kiss my dick, fucking queer. I guess you got in on that "don't ask don't tell" clause. Bush got the same intelligence report that Kerry, Clinton (Hill & Bill), and Edwards got when they made the same fucking claims. Funny how you fucking won't address THAT part of this, yet continue on with your "Bush lied" bullshit.

Boyd, when you get of your momma's tit, I MIGHT one day think you're doing some thinking on your own, but until then you're full of shit. Kerry DID say that he will provide medical coverage for 100% of the population, numbnuts. If Bush lied with pictures, it WOULD come up during the debate. Don't believe everything you hear while you're painting toenails on your mom's bridge night, fuck face.

The_Ghost
17th October 04, 02:19 AM
Vague and pointless..what a shocker.

CaptShady
17th October 04, 07:54 AM
Go shit where you eat fucktard. I'll be looking forward to your beheading video.

Deadpan Scientist
17th October 04, 03:48 PM
CaptShady is slowly turning into Jamoke

Deadpan Scientist
17th October 04, 03:49 PM
BTW, I pwn all of you :guitar:

PeedeeShaolin
17th October 04, 05:33 PM
CaptShady is slowly turning into Jamoke

Where does the word SLOWLY come into play? He's riding a rocket into spookville.

Ever since he's lost Balloonknot he's gone bonzo. Its like someone else is posting and using his screen name.

Shuma-Gorath
17th October 04, 05:57 PM
Ever since he's lost Balloonknot he's gone bonzo. Its like someone else is posting and using his screen name.

Without BalloonKnot to make him look good, we've simply uncovered his massive conspiracy to make really, really bad posts. http://individual.utoronto.ca/shumagorath/images/emot-tinfoil.gif

Deadpan Scientist
17th October 04, 06:07 PM
He still has to find his mortal enemy and then give said enemy a phone number to call, thus PWNing them.

Also, he needs to write fukk shitt and other double consonants.

Shuma-Gorath
17th October 04, 06:17 PM
Also, he needs to write fukk shitt and other double consonants.

I'm so glad Peedee grew out of that.

PeedeeShaolin
17th October 04, 06:52 PM
Peedee didn't "grow out of that" you two gerbil humpers. Peedee just remembers a time when you couldn't post profanity and Peedee isn't good at following rules so Peedee got around it.

Ahh the good old days.....

Deadpan Scientist
17th October 04, 06:53 PM
Peedee go call shi yan ming again.

Boyd
17th October 04, 07:42 PM
Peedee got punked out by Shi Yan Ming.

Shuma-Gorath
17th October 04, 07:59 PM
Peedee got punked out by Shi Yan Ming.

DO NOT READ HIS SIG ALOUD OR HE WILL APPEAR!

Boyd
17th October 04, 08:07 PM
CANDYMAN

CANDYMAN

CANDYARRRRRGHOHJESUSTHISISWHATIGETFORMAKINGFUNOFSL AVERYVICTIMS :5ok:

PeedeeShaolin
17th October 04, 10:20 PM
Why should I call Shi Yang Ming? When I saw him he hardly spoke English, making telephone conversation next to impossible.

Deadpan Scientist
17th October 04, 10:25 PM
it's called a joke peedee, stop denying you got 0wned!!!!!

PeedeeShaolin
17th October 04, 10:27 PM
Where IS KungFuDoesWork anyhow?

He's like the Kim Jong-il of the forum and it seems empty without him.

PeedeeShaolin
17th October 04, 10:30 PM
Shi Yang Ming really DIDN'T speak English you know. I tried to ask him his name several times and he kept telling me "Sifu". I then asked if he was named after his father but the joke was spoiled because he really didn't know what the fuck I was talking about.

He DID eventually send me to a good tai chi school. Thank God I didn't have to ask him for directions, I'd still be looking.

Djimbe
18th October 04, 04:00 AM
Peedee :

Out of Random Curiosity , what was the name/teacher of the School ?

And could you describe what was so good about it ?

Djimbe
18th October 04, 04:29 AM
It kills me that the "Bush lies about WMD's" still comes up. Pushing this bull,


Okay , firstly , its only "Bull" if he didnt do it , and he very obviously DID do it . Hes made half his Presidency on it . HE ALSO lied about the Connection between Hussein and Bin Laden , Interestinly enough , seeing how HIS bfamily is so very connected to the Bin Laden family that they were the first & only ppl allowed on planes after the 9/11 crashes . Our President at work .





acting like Bush was all, "Hmm, let's see, I want to attack Iraq, so I'll con all of congress with a lie that S.H. has WMD's". FACT of the matter is, Clinton, Gore, Kerry, Edwards all have quotes ON THE RECORD, prior to 9/11, prior to Bush's taking office, believing that he had them.

Did they take us to war over that ? You see , even if he DID have them , and ppl believed that he did


Yet we went to war over "Bush lies". Fucking pathetic bunch of b.s. I suppose you also believe that Kerry will

Let me tell you what most ppl DO believe about Kerry :

That he wasnt a fucking pussy in Viet Nam , and that he ran INTO the bullets , not hid from them in Texas .

That he wont get his brother to Fix the Election , and stop all the old & Black people in his Districts for Voting for him

That he can pronounce the word "Nuclear"

That he WILL change his mind when new Info is presented to him . Ppl like you like to call that "Wishy Washy" ppl like me call it "Openmindedness" .



1) make sure that 100% of the U.S. population has medical coverage

Seeing as to how we wouldnt even be CLOSE to ther first nation to achieve this , yet CLAIM to be the "Greatest" in the world this isnt impossible , not even Implausible .


2) kerry will zero out the deficit [QUOTE]

Im betting he wont do any WORSE than Bush .

[QUOTE]3) will "fix" social security

See #2

[QUOTE]4) will "win" in Iraq and get out

See #2


5) will bring back all exported jobs

See #2


6) will rid the U.S. and the rest of the world of Nukes

Im willing to bet that he at least puts attention to the issue in the stead of spending everythign we have fighting a "war" against basically no one . The "War On Drugs" really needs to stop , too . Too much $ wasted that could be used to solve REAL Problems .


7) will increase the number of troops in Iraq

I thought he was getting OUT of Iraq ...


8) will get rid of stop loss... all without raising taxes.

No , just without raising them any more on the ppl that are working hardest to get by . Hes flat out SAID that he was going to raise Taxes on the Rich neumerous times . This country REALLY needs a Flat Tax . And they need to start Taxing churches for as long as there is ANY Religious rhetoric in the Law .


That's just rich. Bush lies??

Umm , yes .

</newsflash>


You think Kerry's not telling a dozen or two doozies?

What ppl tend ot THINK is that he thinks he can do these things . ANd you know what ? Seeing aas hes Smarter than Bush by LIGHTYEARS Im more prone to believe his assesment oif his abilities . Especially as weve SEEN bush fuck it up for the last four , after STEALING it in the offing ! So lets give ANYONE else a chance . You THINK that Kerry lies , But you KNOW that Bush does . Why keepo the CONFIRMED liar ?

Whatever He may have done in his lifetime , Kerry is MORE honest , MORE Brave , and MORE smart than Bush . That means that he deserves the same chance that Bush had . And if HE screws it up at the level that Bush did , then HE should be Ousted as well . Whats so hard to figure out about that ?

CaptShady
18th October 04, 07:23 AM
ROFL! Djimbe finally saved up enough cash to go see Farenhyte 9-11 I see.

Djimbe
18th October 04, 09:18 AM
What do you mean "Saved Up Enough Cash" ?

How the hell do you know that I couldnt BUY your ass ?

I dropped a Grand just to take a pack of ppl to a McThrowdown once !


Just because I can Rqecognise that bush is an Idiot dosent mean that Im a Broke Poverty-Level Democrat .

Nice to see that you have no ACTUAL RESPONSES to anything that Ive posted , however .

CaptShady
18th October 04, 09:25 AM
Nice to see that you have no ACTUAL RESPONSES to anything that Ive posted , however .

Because all of that has been hashed out a dozen times already, it's gotten tired. Yet you chose to not participate in ANY of these discussions in the past, or even read them (otherwise you'd know how much that you've stated has already been ran into the ground) until you got your Moore movie free rental. Then you come on here actin' like you're some kind of expert or something, knowing something that so many don't.

Djimbe
18th October 04, 09:49 AM
Actually , I repeated a couple of the things that were staten IN THIS thread ...

Because yoyu had no Response to them .

They may be "Rehashed" but you never have a Response for them . Thats why they keep GETTNG "rehashed" .

The Moore thing wont work on me . If that were the Limit of my Informatin then Id have likely jumped into this shit long ago .

Shuma-Gorath
18th October 04, 10:54 AM
This is like watching the Special Olympics of debate crossed with a cockfight.

Shug
18th October 04, 11:27 AM
there is one misconstruence; Bush had nothing to do with Bin Ladin's family members being flown out of the country, Dick Clarke arranged that.

But you have to wonder, what kind of president doesn't keep INFORMED about these kinds of things?

Djimbe
18th October 04, 11:33 PM
The kind that sits reading childerens books while the country is under attack ?

Wounded Ronin
18th October 04, 11:37 PM
The Captian has become so hostile all of a sudden.

FighterJones
19th October 04, 09:30 AM
the sole reason I supported (Note past tense) That war.
Was the fact that hussein is terrible.
please.
you americans GAVE saddam those WMD.
Ever heard of skinny puppy?
well watch the video VX gas attack, he's been genocidin the kurds for a long time.
what we really should be doing is getting in sudan.

Boyd
19th October 04, 12:52 PM
ROFL! Djimbe finally saved up enough cash to go see Farenhyte 9-11 I see.

You're in no position to make fun of other people's financial status. I've seen your house and, frankly, there are Mega Man bosses living in Gemini-themed garages with nicer homes.

Dochter
19th October 04, 03:42 PM
Bush got the same intelligence report that Kerry, Clinton (Hill & Bill), and Edwards got when they made the same fucking claims. Funny how you fucking won't address THAT part of this, yet continue on with your "Bush lied" bullshit.Wait the president, who is in charge of the majority of the intelligence services, didn't have more information than members of congress?

If you really think that you are an idiot.

Regardless Bush is the commander in chief, has the final say so and is where the buck stops. He made a case for war that was largely based on WMD's and the threat they posed. He was wrong. He is responsible.

You don't get hired back under those conditions, in fact most of us would get fired prior to the end of our contracts if we did the job that Bush had done.



The kind that sits reading childerens books while the country is under attack ? There is enough to fault Bush for. I'm not going to fault him for not bein psychic.

DJeter1234
19th October 04, 05:51 PM
Can someone who actually knows how the government works if and to what extent the senate commitee on intellegence and the president get the same intelligence?

CaptShady
19th October 04, 11:02 PM
You're in no position to make fun of other people's financial status. I've seen your house and, frankly, there are Mega Man bosses living in Gemini-themed garages with nicer homes.


Firstly, you little punk assed bitch, you did NOT see my house, so STFU. NOR did you see the 15 acres in which it sits.

Secondly, you couldn't afford a house, let alone your own car. You've no right to talk until you stop suckin' on mommy's titty.

Thirdly, I live in San Antonio, TX, let me know when you're in town and how you want it, fucker. I'll also be in Wichita, KS on Nov. 13th & 14th if that's better for you. Ask daddy to buy you a ticket. Offer him head, if your sister's on a break.

Djimbe
23rd October 04, 01:47 AM
Wait the president, who is in charge of the majority of the intelligence services, didn't have more information than members of congress?

If you really think that you are an idiot.

Regardless Bush is the commander in chief, has the final say so and is where the buck stops. He made a case for war that was largely based on WMD's and the threat they posed. He was wrong. He is responsible.

You don't get hired back under those conditions, in fact most of us would get fired prior to the end of our contracts if we did the job that Bush had done.

dude , im not just following my normal pattern here just to argue with you , as overall I think we agree , but I beg to differ ...

I dont know ANYBODY that would get to kep their job under the incompetence Issue alone - but the outright lie issue ??? He should have been Impeached for that shit , especially since Bill was Impeached for "Betraying The Trust Of The American People" about a fucking BLOWJOB ! (or ten ?) I mean , wich is more pertinent a Lie to the American Taxpayer ?


There is enough to fault Bush for. I'm not going to fault him for not bein psychic.

No , man , Im not talking about him being there in the first place . Im talking about the minutes that he claims that he was talking to god (who the FUCK is this guy , Joan of Arc ??? I mean TALKING TO GH0D ??? WTF ???) AFTER being Informed that the Country was under attack , because no one was there to Handle him . The guy walks about with his Sleeves Rolled up , arms Akimbo all the bloody time like he is John Wayne , Clint Eastwood , or Charles Bronson ready for a Fistfight , but when Rubber meets Road he freeze up like a Bitch .

Boyd
23rd October 04, 02:02 AM
Firstly, you little punk assed bitch, you did NOT see my house, so STFU. NOR did you see the 15 acres in which it sits.

Secondly, you couldn't afford a house, let alone your own car. You've no right to talk until you stop suckin' on mommy's titty.

Thirdly, I live in San Antonio, TX, let me know when you're in town and how you want it, fucker. I'll also be in Wichita, KS on Nov. 13th & 14th if that's better for you. Ask daddy to buy you a ticket. Offer him head, if your sister's on a break.

Is it cruel to respond to this knowing Shady can't respond in turn? No, because Shady's life is a tragic comedy, like Napoleon Dynamite or Napoleon Regular, and deep down I admire the balls of a man whose house is rusting yet still swears up and down that his children are apparently dogs and need 15 acres to play frisbee in.

Also he called me Asian and I'm very touchy about my heritage.

patfromlogan
23rd October 04, 11:21 AM
Can someone who actually knows how the government works if and to what extent the senate commitee on intellegence and the president get the same intelligence?

The president is supposed to be able to get all info, as the Commander in Chief. But the Senate Intelligence Committee is privy to the top levels, also, at least according to Senator Hatch, who spoke to me and a few others about it (and not very friendly). Who actually listens and to who they listen to is more of an issue, specially with Bush.


How the gov't works is REAL scary. As far as I understand the CIA, the NSA, the State Dept, the DIA (Pentagon’s own Defense Intelligence Agency), and anyone who is not a commited neocon (the eight or nine fucktards and their flunkies who somehow have taken over the US gov't without anyone but me and Seymour Hersh seeming to notice*) were ALL casting GIANT doubts about the intelligence that the admin was spewing forth (and the admins info seems to have largely been fed them by Chalabi, the zillionaire conman). Therefore, the admin only talks to their own puppet intelligence agency, the Office of Special Plans. The Office of Special Plans operated on its own, off the official payroll and away from Congressional oversight. It's mission done, it's been disbanded.



*edit: OK, Peedee and The Wastrel might have also noticed, I think, and probably Boyd has caught on, and Captain Shady never will, I'm afraid to say. Wastrel WAS the first to bring up the doubtful aspects of the intelligence sources.


If you want to know what's up:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_timeline_of_the_200 3_invasion_of_iraq
is very good, I must admit I haven't read it all. And in reading it, it is easy to get off on all the hundreds of links.




http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?030512fa_fact

From Seymour Hersh: The director of the Special Plans operation is Abram Shulsky, a scholarly expert in the works of the political philosopher Leo Strauss. Shulsky has been quietly working on intelligence and foreign-policy issues for three decades; he was on the staff of the Senate Intelligence Com-mittee in the early nineteen-eighties and served in the Pentagon under Assistant Secretary of Defense Richard Perle during the Reagan Administration, after which he joined the Rand Corporation. The Office of Special Plans is overseen by Under-Secretary of Defense William Luti, a retired Navy captain. Luti was an early advocate of military action against Iraq, and, as the Administration moved toward war and policymaking power shifted toward the civilians in the Pentagon, he took on increasingly important responsibilities.

W. Patrick Lang, the former chief of Middle East intelligence at the D.I.A., said, “The Pentagon has banded together to dominate the government’s foreign policy, and they’ve pulled it off. They’re running Chalabi. The D.I.A. has been intimidated and beaten to a pulp. And there’s no guts at all in the C.I.A.”


If you are reading this, Wastrel, note that again there's another Straussian link with Shulsky. Wolfowitz claims that he only had two classes from Strauss, but he is trying to distance himself, and he did get his PHD from Bloom, a Straussian clone, IMHO.








http://www.sundayherald.com/34491
From the Sunday Herald
"Sources in both the British and US intelligence community are now equating the JIC with the Office of Special Plans (OSP) in the US Pentagon. The OSP was set up by Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to gather intelligence which would prove the case for war. In a staggering attack on the OSP, former CIA officer Larry Johnson told the Sunday Herald the OSP was 'dangerous for US national security and a threat to world peace', adding that it 'lied and manipulated intelligence to further its agenda of removing Saddam'.

He added: 'It's a group of ideologues with pre-determined notions of truth and reality. They take bits of intelligence to support their agenda and ignore anything contrary. They should be eliminated.'

Johnson said that to describe Saddam as an 'imminent threat' to the West was 'laughable and idiotic'. He said many CIA officers were in 'great distress' over the way intelligence had been treated. 'We've entered the world of George Orwell,' Johnson added. 'I'm disgusted. The truth has to be told. We can't allow our leaders to use bogus information to justify war.' "





http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1991.htm is probably not the most reliable, being a right wing nut Larouche site, but most of their information is right on, IMHO.


a little info... The British and US propaganda efforts were and are successful. The following is pasted from the cooperative research article. It's a large document with tons of references and links. These are copied just to give an idea of the source and how it's put together.
1991-2003


From cooperative reseach:
The British MI6 establishes Operation Mass Appeal, a British intelligence mission “designed to exaggerate Iraq's weapons of mass destruction” in order to shape public opinion. [BBC, 11/21/03] The operation plants stories in the US, British, and foreign media from the 1990s through 2003. Intelligence used by Mass Appeal is said to be “single source data of dubious quality.” After the First Gulf War, the operation seeks to justify the UN sanctions policy. But after the September 11 attacks, its objective is to secure public support for an invasion of Iraq. The mission is similar to Operation Rockingham (see 1991-2003), another British intelligence disinformation program. [BBC, 11/21/03; New Yorker, 3/31/03; Scotsman, 11/21/03 Sources: Scott Ritter, Former Clinton Administration official] Former US Marine intelligence officer Scott Ritter says in late in 2003 (see November 21, 2003) that he supplied Mass Appeal with intelligence while serving as UN chief weapons inspector from the summer of 1997 until August 1998 and that he met with British agents involved in the operation several times in both New York and London. [BBC, 11/21/03 Sources: Scott Ritter]
People and organizations involved: Scott Ritter Additional Info
Statements


Scott Ritter
“I was approached by MI6 to provide that data, I met with the Mass Appeal operatives both in New York and London on several occasions. This data was provided and this data did find its way into the international media.” — November 2003 [BBC, 11/21/03]
The intelligence data provided to the media by Operation Mass Appeal “dealt with Iraq's efforts to procure WMDs, with Iraq's efforts to conceal WMDs. It was all single source data of dubious quality, which lacked veracity.” — November 2003 [BBC, 11/21/03]
Operation Mass Appeal “took this information and peddled it off to the media, internationally and domestically, allowing inaccurate intelligence data, to appear on the front pages.” — November 2003 [BBC, 11/21/03]
“I was brought into the operation in 1997 because at the UN... I sat on a body of data which was not actionable, but was sufficiently sexy that if it could appear in the press could make Iraq look like in a bad way.” — November 21, 2003 [BBC, 11/21/03]
Commentaries


Seymour Hersh
“Over the next year [1998], a former American intelligence officer told me, at least one member of the UN inspection team who supported the American and British position arranged for dozens of unverified and unverifiable intelligence reports and tips-data known as inactionable intelligence-to be funneled to MI6 operatives and quietly passed along to newspapers in London and elsewhere. ‘It was intelligence that was crap, and that we couldn't move on, but the Brits wanted to plant stories in England and around the world,’ the former officer said. There was a series of clandestine meetings with MI6, at which documents were provided, as well as quiet meetings, usually at safe houses in the Washington area. The British propaganda scheme eventually became known to some members of the UN inspection team. ‘I knew a bit,’ one official still on duty at UN headquarters acknowledged last week, ‘but I was never officially told about it.’ ” — October 2003 [New Yorker, 3/31/03]








March 8, 1992

The Defense Planning Guidance document, a “blueprint for the department's spending priorities in the aftermath of the first Gulf War and the collapse of the Soviet Union,” is leaked to the New York Times. [New York Times, 3/8/92; Newsday, 3/16/03] The paper causes controversy, because it hadn't yet been “scrubbed” to replace candid language with euphemisms. [New York Times, 3/10/92; New York Times, 3/11/92; The Observer, 4/7/02] The document argues that the US dominates the world as sole superpower, and to maintain that role it “must maintain the mechanisms for deterring potential competitors from even aspiring to a larger regional or global role.” [New York Times, 3/8/92; New York Times, 3/8/92 [B]] As the Observer summarizes it, “America's friends are potential enemies. They must be in a state of dependence and seek solutions to their problems in Washington.” [The Observer, 4/7/02] The document is mainly written by Paul Wolfowitz and Lewis Libby, who hold relatively low posts at the time, but under Bush Jr. become Deputy Defense Secretary and Vice President Cheney's Chief of Staff, respectively. [Newsday, 3/16/03] The document conspicuously avoids mention of collective security arrangements through the United Nations, instead suggesting the US “should expect future coalitions to be ad hoc assemblies, often not lasting beyond the crisis being confronted.” [New York Times, 3/8/92] It also calls for “punishing” or “threatening punishment” against regional aggressors before they act. Interests to be defended pre-emptively include “access to vital raw materials, primarily Persian Gulf oil, proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles, [and] threats to US citizens from terrorism.” [Harper's, 10/02] Senator Lincoln Chafee (R), later says, “It is my opinion that [Bush Jr.'s] plan for preemptive strikes was formed back at the end of the first Bush administration with that 1992 report.” [Newsday, 3/16/03] In response to the controversy, in May 1992 the US releases an updated version of the document that stresses the US will work with the United Nations and its allies (see also January 1993). [The Washington Post, 5/24/92; Harper's, 10/02]
People and organizations involved: George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Lincoln Chafee, Lewis Libby, Paul Wolfowitz

DJeter1234
23rd October 04, 12:37 PM
thx, i'll read through it after parent's weekend

patfromlogan
23rd October 04, 04:20 PM
thx, i'll read through it after parent's weekend

I edited my post, to try to answer your question a little better. Truthfully I don't know just how it's set up.

But that something stinks to high heaven is plain.

Try googling Valerie Plame

Wounded Ronin
25th October 04, 05:04 PM
Just to throw some kerosine on the fire, since we need more flaming....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1319718,00.html

(supposedly) letters sent to Mikey Moore from "disillusioned" US soldiers!

Whhheeeee!

The_Ghost
25th October 04, 05:54 PM
All I know is, my ass could be there in less than 2 years...if Bush is still in office none of this will have changed.

We got plenty of problems all over the world, should we send 200,000 troops in to face angry hostiles for the sake of one mans empire?

Freddy
25th October 04, 06:13 PM
I think the economy is something to worry about. Slowly sinking.

Dochter
25th October 04, 08:33 PM
dude , im not just following my normal pattern here just to argue with you , as overall I think we agree , but I beg to differ ...

I dont know ANYBODY that would get to kep their job under the incompetence Issue alone - but the outright lie issue ??? He should have been Impeached for that shit , especially since Bill was Impeached for "Betraying The Trust Of The American People" about a fucking BLOWJOB ! (or ten ?) I mean , wich is more pertinent a Lie to the American Taxpayer ?
I'm not clear where we disagree at all. As for it being a lie, that is something that is too hard to prove, though I tend to think it was.



No , man , Im not talking about him being there in the first place . Im talking about the minutes that he claims that he was talking to god (who the FUCK is this guy , Joan of Arc ??? I mean TALKING TO GH0D ??? WTF ???) AFTER being Informed that the Country was under attack , because no one was there to Handle him . The guy walks about with his Sleeves Rolled up , arms Akimbo all the bloody time like he is John Wayne , Clint Eastwood , or Charles Bronson ready for a Fistfight , but when Rubber meets Road he freeze up like a Bitch .What you wrote seemed a condemnation of his being where he was, not of the fact that he is a loon.

Scrapper
29th October 04, 08:55 PM
Ghost....

I apologize in a advance if I offend you. Please understand that I have significant respect for the soldiers who fight for this country and my following questions are legitimate and frank. Having said that:

Why did you volunteer for the military? If my understanding is correct, those who are not sure if they want to support the government of the U.S. in military service can abstain from said service by not volunteering. You volunteered. You did not volunteer to fight when you felt it was ok...you volunteered to fight when the government says you should.

I have no less than four very good friends serving in the middle east right now. Every one of them went willingly, most happily, in service of this country. After their service, any one of them can go "John Kerry" and speak out against bush and his policy. But it does not become a soldier in service to do so while in service.

When I hear a prefessional soldier in service to the United States complain about be asked to do his job, I get confused. It is like a firefighter collecting city pay for ten years and then being angry when he has to go into a burning building. It just seems spoiled and selfish. (I am not trying to imply that this is the case for you...I just want to understand.)

Because of your voluntary service, you will be provided with pay, benefits, medical care and the respect and honor of a grateful nation. It just seems dirty if you are willing to enjoy the benefits but gripe about the job.

Once again...I mean no disrespect. I know nothing about you or your situation, and I do respect the service you volunteered to do for this country...OUR country. I just don't understand your position.

The_Ghost
30th October 04, 01:15 AM
Scrapper, normally I would take offense but I think I get where your coming from.

Let me fully explain (this shouldn't take long) my position.

I am a soldier for my country first and foremost. If they told me to go into the middle of Sudan right now and quell the warlords, I would do it. Whatever they tell me to do, I'm doing it without hesitation because that's my job.

I'm not whining about the war, but as someone who must participate in it, I would prefer to be fighting for a good reason. Will I complain? Never. I have concerns, not complaints. I knew what I was getting into and what I could be doing. that's fine, I'll do it to the best of my ability.

However, at the same time I am a United States citizen whose concern is not only for my own country, but also other peoples countries as well.

Let me pose it in a question:

If I see a problem should I simply shut up and let it slide?

The answer is obviously no. Takin Hussein out was an appropriate measure, but the strategy for which we are going in and the intentions people have when they called my fellow soldiers to give up their lives may have not been completely 'noble'.

I'm a soldier, I'll do what I need to do without complaint. But that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion.

I will never gripe about my job, but I will be concerned about how my job is being used.

Does that make sense?

Scrapper
30th October 04, 12:31 PM
Absolutely.
That was all I wanted to know. I know alot of people who have a lot of opinions about our policy in Iraq...but so far the consensus of the military people I know has always been. "It's my job...I will do it because it's my job." I disagree with the strategy as well, but I believe in the mission. I just wanted your take on it as a soldier. Thank you.

Hawkeye
30th October 04, 12:34 PM
I am a soldier for my country first and foremost. If they told me to go into the middle of Sudan right now and quell the warlords, I would do it. Whatever they tell me to do, I'm doing it without hesitation because that's my job.

Out of curiousity sake, what post are ya stationed at?

The_Ghost
30th October 04, 01:33 PM
Oakland Army Base, its a reserve station.

Stick
30th October 04, 01:36 PM
Ghost .. kiss my dick, fucking queer. I guess you got in on that "don't ask don't tell" clause. Bush got the same intelligence report that Kerry, Clinton (Hill & Bill), and Edwards got when they made the same fucking claims. Funny how you fucking won't address THAT part of this, yet continue on with your "Bush lied" bullshit.

Boyd, when you get of your momma's tit, I MIGHT one day think you're doing some thinking on your own, but until then you're full of shit. Kerry DID say that he will provide medical coverage for 100% of the population, numbnuts. If Bush lied with pictures, it WOULD come up during the debate. Don't believe everything you hear while you're painting toenails on your mom's bridge night, fuck face.


Gore, Kerry, Clinton, and Edwards..... yeah, none of them, not a one, went to the UN with a ridiculously exaggerated case for the pressance of WMD. None of them, not a one, said to Richard Clarke "how can we tie [9/11] to Iraq".


You are pathetic; go get sheered.

The Wastrel
30th October 04, 01:45 PM
Ghost....

I apologize in a advance if I offend you. Please understand that I have significant respect for the soldiers who fight for this country and my following questions are legitimate and frank. Having said that:

Why did you volunteer for the military? If my understanding is correct, those who are not sure if they want to support the government of the U.S. in military service can abstain from said service by not volunteering. You volunteered. You did not volunteer to fight when you felt it was ok...you volunteered to fight when the government says you should.

I have no less than four very good friends serving in the middle east right now. Every one of them went willingly, most happily, in service of this country. After their service, any one of them can go "John Kerry" and speak out against bush and his policy. But it does not become a soldier in service to do so while in service.

When I hear a prefessional soldier in service to the United States complain about be asked to do his job, I get confused. It is like a firefighter collecting city pay for ten years and then being angry when he has to go into a burning building. It just seems spoiled and selfish. (I am not trying to imply that this is the case for you...I just want to understand.)

Because of your voluntary service, you will be provided with pay, benefits, medical care and the respect and honor of a grateful nation. It just seems dirty if you are willing to enjoy the benefits but gripe about the job.

Once again...I mean no disrespect. I know nothing about you or your situation, and I do respect the service you volunteered to do for this country...OUR country. I just don't understand your position.


Don't be confused. First of all, the ideal of the American fighting man is that of the citizen-soldier. There is nothing that prohibits servicepeople from expressing their opinions, political or otherwise. They are not, however, to do so in an official capacity. There's a bit of a problem though in that those who wish to support the current administration are not punished for doing so.

Second, when a building is on fire, does the mayor issue the order? No. It's a clear situation in which the fire department has the final operational say, independent of politics. Officeholders have the power of the purse over the fire department, but they don't decide where they're going to do their jobs, or really how. It's hard to imagine how fighting fires can be evil, unless you'r running in to extiniguish a burning vampire's coffin.

War however, is very complicated, innately political, and certainly subject to evil purposes. Being asked to kill or be killed, to me, should equip one with the highest right to question the purposes to which your life and conscience are being put.

Scrapper
30th October 04, 04:11 PM
Understood wastrel. I was interested in ghost's personal motivation for volunteering...he obviously has the right to agree or disagree with government policy as he chooses, but as a soldier he is supposed to follow orders with resolve and conviction. His answer to my post satisfies me that he has his countries best interests at heart, whether or not he approves of the plan.

the firefighter analogy, while not perfect, suited my purpose as a corallary to the soldier's conundrum. I understand that that is much simpler to work out the morality of entering a burning building than of going off to war. Whether or not an individual feels the war in Iraq is moral is a whole other argument.

thanx.