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View Full Version : Israeli newspaper reports U.S. has "secret prison" in Jordan



PeedeeShaolin
16th October 04, 11:02 AM
A large Israeli news association, Haaretz, has claimed that the United States has a secret prison in Jordan where at least 11 top al-Qaeda were being held, allowing the C.I.A. to use interrogation techniques that would not be allowed within the U.S.

The C.I.A. has refused to comment.


Haaretz said detainees held at the base included former al-Qaeda military leader Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, recruitment head Abu Zubaydah and Ramzi bin al-Shibh - a former roommate of 11 suicide airline hijacker Mohammed Atta.

Hambali, a Thai suspect thought to have links to al-Qaeda is also held there, the report says.

Since the war in Afghanistan three years ago, the majority of people deemed enemy combatants have been transferred to a US military base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

However, a minority were taken to Pakistan and from there moved to Jordan, Haaretz said.

Jordan has denied any such facility and says that the purpose of such talk is aimed at weakening the country's human rights image.


The Haaretz report follows a Human Rights Watch report that said 11 al-Qaeda suspects were being denied access to the International Red Cross and protection under international law, and suggested that torture had been used.

Human Rights Watch, which based its 46-page report largely on news reports, acknowledged the need to bring terror suspects to justice but questioned the legality of the detainees' treatment.

HRW highlights a number of areas in which the US appears to be violating international legal standards:

International treaties ratified by the US prohibit holding prisoners incommunicado and in secret locations

The Geneva Conventions require that the International Committee of the Red Cross has access to all detainees and that information on them be provided to their relatives

Under international human rights law, detainees must be held in recognised places of detention and be able to communicate with lawyers and family members
The US argues that al-Qaeda members are not entitled to the protection of Geneva conventions because they are not lawful combatants. The Pentagon says the "spirit" of the conventions is respected at the detention centre at Guantanamo Bay.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3742428.stm

SRK85
16th October 04, 11:16 AM
Actually this a good thing we need to torture these assholes.

PeedeeShaolin
16th October 04, 11:18 AM
You assume that the people involved are guilty, lol. Wouldnt it suck for them if they just happened to be Arab and in the wrong place at the wrong time.......

SRK85
16th October 04, 11:26 AM
Well who knows if their are inncoent then thats evil.

Deadpan Scientist
16th October 04, 11:34 AM
I guess it's not very secret anymore....

Judah Maccabee
16th October 04, 11:38 AM
This has been well known for some time: The US takes advantage of loopholes in its own anti-torture laws to try to glean information by outsourcing to other countries. Egypt was one of the more well-known ones. Dershowitz covers this topic in his book "A Case for Israel" in the chapter pertaining to if Israel widely employed torture (it doesn't).

In fact, in the US, there was a torture case where police in a Southern state apprehended a kidnapper, and an officer broke the criminal's fingers until he revealed where the girl he kidnapped was held. This was upheld in court as legitimate.

PeedeeShaolin
16th October 04, 08:26 PM
Jordan denies this place exists.

Gezere
17th October 04, 04:35 AM
I really hope there IS such a prison. Everyone wants the US to play by the rules when they break them so viva la loopholes.:D

Freddy
17th October 04, 05:17 PM
I tend to respect the Geneva covention.
If one country supports tortue then why shouldn't any country do the same. Why dont all countries just simply use torture then.

Its like when China held that spy plane and the American crew. Why shouldnt they have torture the fuck out of them? Or when the Iraqi military had American POWs why shouldnt they have tortured them?

Samuel Browning
17th October 04, 06:50 PM
This has been well known for some time: The US takes advantage of loopholes in its own anti-torture laws to try to glean information by outsourcing to other countries. Egypt was one of the more well-known ones. Dershowitz covers this topic in his book "A Case for Israel" in the chapter pertaining to if Israel widely employed torture (it doesn't).

In fact, in the US, there was a torture case where police in a Southern state apprehended a kidnapper, and an officer broke the criminal's fingers until he revealed where the girl he kidnapped was held. This was upheld in court as legitimate.

I doubt that his statements were admissible against him in court after that session but why don't you tell me which case that is, so I can review it, and see if you're describing it accurately.

PeedeeShaolin
17th October 04, 06:53 PM
I doubt that his statements were admissible against him in court after that session but why don't you tell me which case that is, so I can review it, and see if you're describing it accurately.

You'll be waiting a while.

SLJ
18th October 04, 05:47 AM
I'm not going to loose any sleep over it.

Judah Maccabee
18th October 04, 08:17 AM
I doubt that his statements were admissible against him in court after that session but why don't you tell me which case that is, so I can review it, and see if you're describing it accurately.

Dershowitz cites in "A Case For Israel", p. 137:

"When he refused [to tell the whereabouts of the victim], the police choked the suspect and twisted his arm "until he revealed where [the victom] was being held."

Leon v. Wainwright 734 F.2d 770, 772-773 (11th Cir. 1984) See also Chavez v. Martiniez (slip opinion, U.S. Supreme Court, No. 01-1444)

Citations #2 and #7 on page 252 under "Does Israel Torture Palestinians?"

Fuck you, Peedee.

Judah Maccabee
18th October 04, 08:58 AM
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=000&invol=01-1444

for Chavez. Findlaw only goes back to 1994 for the 11th Court, so you might have to consult an alternative source.

Rigante
18th October 04, 09:26 AM
Freddy maybe you dont remember the smashed up faces of pilots who had been captured and tortured by the Iraqi's during the first gulf war, but I sure remember.

SLJ
18th October 04, 09:35 AM
When there is a definite answer. ie. Where is this person being held, torture works pretty damn well.

It doesn't work so well for confessions of course.

Freddy
18th October 04, 11:46 AM
Freddy maybe you dont remember the smashed up faces of pilots who had been captured and tortured by the Iraqi's during the first gulf war, but I sure remember.


Yes that has been highly disputed. According to different sources that may be the result of when a pilot ejects out of a plane. (Mind you I do not support the mistreatment of any pilots.)
If I recall the U.S. did warn the Iraqi to adhere to the Geneva Convention.

Freddy
18th October 04, 11:50 AM
When there is a definite answer. ie. Where is this person being held, torture works pretty damn well.

It doesn't work so well for confessions of course.

And people wonder why Iranians hated the Shah of Iran etc.

PeedeeShaolin
18th October 04, 12:18 PM
Torture does NOT work well.

You hook a mans nuts up to a car battery and all thats going to happen is he's going to tell you exactly what you want to hear just to get you to stop. The result would look like "Team America" with the U.S. trying to capture some guy who runs a market and looks like Ali Babba just because some prisoner told them HE was the man.

Samuel Browning
18th October 04, 01:52 PM
Dershowitz cites in "A Case For Israel", p. 137:

"When he refused [to tell the whereabouts of the victim], the police choked the suspect and twisted his arm "until he revealed where [the victom] was being held."

Leon v. Wainwright 734 F.2d 770, 772-773 (11th Cir. 1984) See also Chavez v. Martiniez (slip opinion, U.S. Supreme Court, No. 01-1444)

Citations #2 and #7 on page 252 under "Does Israel Torture Palestinians?"

Fuck you, Peedee.

Fair enough, I will review these cases and post later on them.

Judah Maccabee
19th October 04, 01:15 PM
Looking forward to it.:)

Gezere
19th October 04, 01:49 PM
Its like when China held that spy plane and the American crew. Why shouldnt they have torture the fuck out of them? Or when the Iraqi military had American POWs why shouldnt they have tortured them?

You think they wouldn't. Rigante is right there was torture in the first war. There was some in the Balkans. Thinks like Geneva are nice but not everyone adheres to them.

Freddy
20th October 04, 11:32 AM
You think they wouldn't. Rigante is right there was torture in the first war. There was some in the Balkans. Thinks like Geneva are nice but not everyone adheres to them.

Of course not everyone adheres to the Geneva Convention its war after all. Ideally it is meant to cut down the amount of abuse of POWs and war crimes. Atrocites still happens in war regardless unfortunately. There are reasons why certain people are brought up on charges of war crimes and why the Nuremburg trial happen. Very few nations wants the stigma of holding war criminals and comitting war crimes.

There are international political ramnifications to consider. Not to say ramnifications in any future conflict where American prisoners are held.

Over all I respect the Geneva Convention and the well treatment of prisoners regardless of which side they are in a conflict. Those combatants who violated it should be treated as a war criminals and brought to International court and tried.

(Ask Ronin he had first hand witness of atrocities happening in the Balkans.)