View Full Version : From the BBC: Israel "blocked peace talks" with U.S. approval

7th October 04, 11:36 AM
You dont want to hear this shit? Then DONT read it.

Its not my fault that the vast majority of people in the U.S> and Canada know next to nothing about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Maybe this will ooen your eyes a bit. The BBC reported it last night.

A top Israeli official has claimed that Ariel Sharon's Gaza withdrawal plan was deliberately formulated to block peace negotiations with Yasser Arafat.
"The significance of the plan is the freezing of the peace process," Dov Weisglass told Haaretz newspaper, adding the US had given its backing.

In case you're totally ignorant as to who Weisglass is, he was Ariel Sharon's chief of staff and he's now his "point man in the U.S." according to the BBC.

In the interview he confirms that Ariel Sharon PURPOSELY avoided the Road Map, which both the Israilis and Palestinians have agreed on.

Speaking after the controversial interview was published, he said there had been no intention to freeze the "political process as such".

"But there was definitely an intention not to hold a political process with the PNA [Palestinian National Authority] in its present state," he told Israeli radio.

In his interview for Haaretz, he described disengagement from Gaza as "formaldehyde".

"It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians," he said.

Israel is planning to pull all its settlers out of Gaza and the troops that protect them as part of its plan but it will maintain control of Gaza's borders, coastline and airspace. Four West Bank settlements are also to be evacuated.

Mr Weisglass boasted that he had in effect secured US approval "that part of the settlements would not be dealt with at all".

"The rest will not be dealt with until the Palestinians turn into Finns," he joked.
He even mentions that some of Israel's best people REFUSED to fight in the West Bank. Its been widely spoken even in ISRAEL that many military refuse to enter mission in the West Bank and will only serve within the agreed upon borders, which Israel has illegally expanded.

With Israel's economy stagnant and the rival Geneva Initiative being touted by Mr Sharon's political opponents, Mr Weisglass said the refusal by some servicemen and women to fight in the occupied territories was seen as the last straw.

"These were not weird kids with green ponytails and a ring in their nose with a strong odour of grass. These were... really our finest young people," he said.

So the Sharon government felt the need to clasp the initiative.

"Although by the way the Americans read the situation, the blame fell on the Palestinians not on us, [Mr Sharon] grasped that this state of affairs could not last, that [the Palestinians] wouldn't leave us alone, wouldn't get off our case."

In case Samurai Steve isn't crying yet, Weisglass really lets the cat out of the bag here:

"When you freeze [the peace] process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the [Palestinian] refugees, the borders and Jerusalem.

"Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda.

"And all this with authority and permission. All with a [US] presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress."

There has been no comment on the interview from the US embassy in Tel Aviv. Washington is a sponsor of the roadmap plan which foresees the creation of a Palestinian state that can live in peace next to Israel.

I know....I'm a troll because I actually have some background about the conflict, right Steve? All of this is just make believe I guess........


7th October 04, 11:40 AM
HEY! What do ya KNOW?

The UN just warned of a major crisis in Gaza.

It says as many as 72% of Palestinians will be living in poverty by the end of 2006, and that Israeli restrictions are hampering emergency aid deliveries.

Since 28 September, 82 Palestinians and five Israelis have been killed in Gaza, including 26 children, the report says.

Compiled by 12 UN agencies, the report calls on Israel to allow the agencies free access throughout the strip.

All lies of course. Its all a smokescreen to fool everyone. The UN just likes to stir shit.

Currently, over 65% of Palestinians in Gaza live on less than $2 a day.

"The UN organisations recognise Israel's legitimate security concerns, particularly the need to stop Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks into civilian areas, however its actions should be in conformity with international humanitarian law and it should not use disproportionate force," the report says.

In 2004, an average of 45 Palestinians have died every month in fighting
In September 2004, 133 homes were destroyed by the Israeli army, 807 Palestinians were made homeless
24,547 Gazans have been made homeless in the last four years by Israeli army house demolitions
72% of Gazans will live in poverty by 2006
Source: United Nations

The report says residents have difficulty finding work, exporting goods, moving around Gaza and sending their children to school.


7th October 04, 11:42 AM
Hey, even MORE shit in one day! Maybe this might be important huh?

US officials say they have sought and received assurances over comments by an adviser to the Israeli prime minister about the Gaza disengagement plan.
The adviser, Dov Weisglass, had told an Israeli newspaper that the Gaza plan was intended to indefinitely delay the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Mr Weisglass said that this had been done with President Bush's approval.

Palestinian officials say that this had been their analysis of Ariel Sharon's Gaza disengagement plan all along.

Our understanding is that Israel is committed to the road map and to the president's two-state vision... we see no cause to doubt it

Adam Ereli
US States Department
"It is a policy that was clearly stated. Its intention was to delay and disrupt any actual progress towards a two-state solution. Dov Weisglass simply stated in public what was obvious to us," Michael Tarazi, a Palestinian legal adviser told BBC News Online.

"I don't understand what assurances Washington could have got to allay their fears after the Weisglass comments."


7th October 04, 11:43 AM
Just today Israel has killed a 12 and 14 year old boy in Gaza:

7th October 04, 11:47 AM
Why would Israel leave the west banks, or Gaza or anywhere else that they control?

WingChun Lawyer
7th October 04, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by ronin69
Why would Israel leave the west banks, or Gaza or anywhere else that they control?

"Israel is planning to pull all its settlers out of Gaza and the troops that protect them as part of its plan but it will maintain control of Gaza's borders, coastline and airspace."

They will keep access to the region under their control. That will buy them time. War by procrastination, the palestinians are the weaker of the two, so...

7th October 04, 11:51 AM
I doubt Israel will pull anyone out of Gaza, or anywhere else.

WingChun Lawyer
7th October 04, 11:53 AM
Oh, they can pull a couple of families, and install a half dozen during the night.

7th October 04, 11:55 AM
Israel, being the dominate Nation in the middle east, has no reason to do anything it doesn't want to do.

Judah Maccabee
7th October 04, 11:56 AM
Many people won't fight in the army? Define many. As far as I've seen, the refuseniks barely have 4 digit numbers, even if that. One thousand refusers in a country of 6 million with compulsory military service for about 75% of them hardly registers a blip in terms of significance. Perhaps the rank and significance of some of those refuseniks gives it greater moral weight...

No one's ever said the Gaza withdrawal was intended to be a final status negotiation.

As for the UN's report on Gaza, I can imagine it's difficult finding work when Palestinians repeatedly blow themselves up at juncture points between the territories. 10,000 Palestinians go through Erez Crossing every day, yet suicide bombers continually blow themselves up there so that they CAN'T go to work due to the justifiable Israeli closure.

And I also acknowledge that Palestinians are in dire economic straits, which is why I constantly question people on why they haven't campaigned to have Yasser Arafat removed from power or at least called to task for his corruption and mismanagement of BILLIONS of dollars of aid. From Dr. Pat Clawson's analysis of World Bank statistics:


The Marshall Plan distributed $60 billion (at today’s prices), which worked out to $272 per European in the main participating countries. By contrast, by the end of last year, according to the World Bank, the Palestinians had received $4 billion since Oslo, which translates into $1,330 per Palestinian. In other words, the Palestinians have already gotten more than four times as much as the Europeans got from the Marshall Plan. Or if done on an annual basis, the Palestinians have gotten $161 per person per year compared to $68 per person annually under the four-year Marshall Plan, meaning the Palestinians have gotten more than twice as much aid for twice as long as Europe got under the Marshall Plan.


It is instructive to compare Palestinian incomes to those of other Arabs. In 2000, WBG income per person was $1,660. That was higher than in such middle-income Arab countries as Algeria ($1,580) or Egypt ($1,490). Palestinian income has fallen as the violence has worsened. In its March 2002 report on the impact of the violence, the World Bank’s estimate was that Palestinian income per person fell 19 percent in 2001, which would put the income at about $1,340. That is still above a country such as Morocco ($1,180 in 2000). The World Bank’s estimate was that harsher closure could mean that Palestinian income may fall 20 percent more in 2002, which would put the per-capita income at $1,070. Palestinian income may be only 14 percent higher than in Syria, where per-capita income was $940 in 2000.

More detailed results here: http://www.aijac.org.au/updates/Aug-02/120802.html

[quote]Those who want to help alleviate the suffering of the Palestinians would do best at concentrating on ending the violence, arriving as quickly as possible at a lasting set of arrangements, and achieving Palestinian reform probably in that order of importance as regards economic impact.

WingChun Lawyer
7th October 04, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by samurai_steve
Many people won't fight in the army? Define many. As far as I've seen, the refuseniks barely have 4 digit numbers, even if that. One thousand refusers in a country of 6 million with compulsory military service for about 75% of them hardly registers a blip in terms of significance.

More the pity. I think it is a proof of their moral fiber the way they refuse to target innocents by fighting outside israeli territory.

Yasser doesn´t help, though, I´ll grant you that. But the interview does mention forestalling INDEFINETELY the creation of a palestinian state.

Judah Maccabee
7th October 04, 12:07 PM
I don't deny that there are individuals in the Knesset or in the population who would be happy with population transfer and occupation of "Greater Israel", not to mention their supporters in the US. However, they occupy a minority in the political process and are recognized as having inappropriate, unrealistic views.

On the flip side, the Arab nations and the PA have their own intransgience for a Palestinian state. The PA has never conclusively revised their constitution to allow for a Jewish state in their midst: It still states that all of "Palestine" belongs to the Palestinians. We're dealing with the claims of an aid, and I think it's premature to jump to any solid conclusions on what was said and what the implications are, just like it was premature of Israel and the IDF to claim "Qassam" when it was just as possible to claim "stretcher" in regards to recent accusations against UNRWA.

Historical record shows Sharon as a proponent of the settler movement who reversed himself and evacuated settlements, such as Yamit in the 80's. My sense and understanding is total withdrawal from Gaza and 88% or so withdrawal from the WB.

WingChun Lawyer
7th October 04, 12:10 PM
Sorry, I am not following you anymore - who is Qassam, and what are UNRWA and WB?

Judah Maccabee
7th October 04, 12:12 PM
Qassam = type of rocket launched from Gaza into Israel. The most recent incursions into Gaza by the IDF is to prevent these from being launched, since they have killed people, including 2 Ethiopian immigrant children.

UNRWA - UN Relief Works Agency: Unlike other refugee operations, Palestinians get their own organization to tend to their needs from the UN.

WB = West Bank. WBG is a term in the lexicon for West Bank / Gaza

WingChun Lawyer
7th October 04, 12:15 PM
Thanks Steve.

Just for the record: I would like to state that it is refreshing to have an israeli supporter around who is not a rabid war dog, and who can actually participate in a conversation and listen to other people.

Judah Maccabee
7th October 04, 12:18 PM
V ^_^ V I aim to please.

7th October 04, 01:23 PM
V ^_^ V I aim to please.

Thats why the boys love him :D

Judah Maccabee
7th October 04, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by PeedeeShaolin
Thats why the boys love him :D

Your echoey, cavernous cock-docket seems to suggest otherwise, PeePeePutItIn.