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PeedeeShaolin
25th September 04, 02:45 PM
The United Nations aid officials have stated that Israels latest incursion into Gaza has laft more than 200 people homeless after an Israeli missle left a 55 year old Palestinain civillian dead.


Shortly after midnight Israeli troops, tanks and bulldozers moved into Khan Yunis and began tearing down buildings.

The UN agency which cares for Palestinian refugees, Unrwa, said 60 families - around 230 people in total - had lost their houses or shelters.

One man said he ran with his children as the bulldozers closed in and gunfire sounded in the darkness.


"We were forced to leave the house under intensive shooting from the sky and from tanks," father of four Fathi Zaroub told the Associated Press.

"We took nothing from our belongings. We ran away in our pyjamas and we have no other refuge."

Israel is denying the UN's figures for the destruction, saying that the military only destroyed "uninhabited structures used by Palestinian militants for shelling the settlement of Neve Dekalim."

The press would like to verify this for themselves of course but thats impossible since the Israeli military have shut the checkpoint on the road to Khan Yunis.

In Gaza there are over a million Palestinians and just over 8,000 settlers.

The 8,000 settlers take up 1/3 of the land there.

Israel's Prime Minister is locked in a FURIOUS battle with his own cabinet and has even accused them of trying to incite "civil war".

Many people see this latest incursion as a response to the three Israeli soldiers that were killed on Thirsday in Morag.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3689104.stm

cyrijl
25th September 04, 02:47 PM
i have long ago stopped taking a position on this. Both sides are in the wrong.

Deadpan Scientist
25th September 04, 03:33 PM
Those homes needed a remodel anyhow. They were just tract homes.

Deadpan Scientist
25th September 04, 03:43 PM
so vanilla...

LOVED2BLOVED
26th September 04, 12:09 PM
how does one solve the israeli - palestine problem?

LOVED2BLOVED
26th September 04, 12:21 PM
another hamas leader killed today by israeli carbomb


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3691082.stm

Jenfucius
26th September 04, 01:38 PM
only 200? that leaves over 999,800 to go!

Peter H.
27th September 04, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by LOVED2BLOVED
how does one solve the israeli - palestine problem?

You could start by forcing Syria to let the Palestinians displaced by the war in Lebanon go home, but then, who would try to force an Arab country to do something right by other Arabs. Why that would be preposterous. I mean, the Un has only been telling Syria to do that since what? 1981-ish?

LOVED2BLOVED
27th September 04, 12:53 PM
well its a start...

DANINJA
30th September 04, 07:59 AM
even aid workers are not safe:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3701036.stm

Two American Christian volunteers say they were beaten and robbed by masked Jewish settlers while escorting a group of Palestinian children to school.
Kim Lamberty and Chris Brown say they were kicked, beaten with a chain and had their possessions stolen close to the Maon settlement, near Hebron.

A settler spokesman said he had no knowledge of the incident and opposed any violation of the law.

Israeli police said they were investigating the assault.

Ms Lamberty suffered a broken arm and Mr Brown a punctured lung in the attack.

Both have filed a complaint with Israeli police.

'Ambush'

The two are members of Christian Peacemaker Teams - a group that monitors conflict between Israelis and Palestinians in the Hebron area.

Whilst recovering in an Israeli hospital in Beersheba, Chris Brown told BBC News Online it had been "was an ambush - a premeditated attack".

"They threw a stone at my head which knocked me over and then whipped me with chains," Mr Brown said.

He said that Ms Lamberty had her passport, mobile phone and money stolen by the settlers.

He also said that harassment of Christian volunteers working with Palestinians in the area is common.

"They normally throw stones at us or fire their guns over our heads - but this is the most vicious assault so far."

Palestinians also complain of violent intimidation by Jewish settlers in the Hebron area.

Around 1,200 soldiers guard some 600 Jewish settlers living in an enclave in the heart of Hebron, home to 120,000 Palestinians - an area that has seen some of the fiercest fighting of the four-year-old Palestinian intifada or uprising.

CanuckMA
3rd October 04, 10:50 PM
That's mostly because Hebron is home to a Jewish Holy site. And the Arabs have a history of desecrating our Holy sites.

Sun Wukong
4th October 04, 05:15 PM
Oh come the fuck on canuck. The jews will drop a bomb on a 4 story apartment building in palestine to kill just one person who may or may not even be home.

Their doctrine is usually, if you're not there to kill palestinians then you must be in collusion. The israeli's are fucking nuts in their military doctrine and are alot closer in deed to sturm troup than any US ally.

Brutality is the hallmark of the israeli's and they will apparently stop at nothing to wage war on any arab country they can. They nearly never honor any sort of cease fire and always retaliate with heavier force than they were subject to.

I guess they feel that it's the way to win war, but the culture is going to destroy any ability to come to a peaceful solution among it's progeny.

CanuckMA
6th October 04, 10:59 PM
Of course walking into a bus, restaurant, disco with explosives belts full of nails and bolts to maximize civilian damage is OK right?

Somebody blows up a couple of buildings and you invade and level 2 countries, but that's OK right?

Ignorant
7th October 04, 03:43 AM
i dont believe so, i do not condone violence of anykind.

Peter H.
7th October 04, 08:20 AM
Isreals policy of destroying/demolishing buildings used as terrorist hideouts and headquarters is well publicized, and the terrorist know it. Which is why they like to surround themselves with civilians, so when Isreal comes and enforces this policy, they can point and say, "See, Isreal just wants to kill civilians, it's genocide!"

Of course, they deny that their goal is the elimination of all Isrealis, the country of Isreal, and their own culpability by using children as shields and PR tools.

Judah Maccabee
7th October 04, 10:03 AM
I-S-R-A-E-L

Typos make samurai_steve cry. :(

WingChun Lawyer
7th October 04, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by CanuckMA
Of course walking into a bus, restaurant, disco with explosives belts full of nails and bolts to maximize civilian damage is OK right?

Somebody blows up a couple of buildings and you invade and level 2 countries, but that's OK right?

No one is innocent over there. But the settlements are an insult and a serious deterrent to any peaceful efforts on both sides, and Israel could do something about those (although I heard Sharon promised to destroy some settlements, I have no data about that - links would be appreciated).

Ronin
7th October 04, 10:11 AM
There are no winners over there.
Everyone has done enough to look very, very bad in all this.
Both sides represent the worst the humans have to offer.

WingChun Lawyer
7th October 04, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by ronin69

Both sides represent the worst the humans have to offer.

Judah Maccabee
7th October 04, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by ronin69
There are no winners over there.
Everyone has done enough to look very, very bad in all this.
Both sides represent the worst the humans have to offer.

Disgusting moral equivalence. And even in regards to the Palestinians, that's patently false. The current situation in Darfur, the Holocaust (Jewish and non-Jewish victims), the Khmer Rouge's genocide of 1/3rd of Cambodia's population: Those represent the worst of humanity.

Peter H.
7th October 04, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by samurai_steve
I-S-R-A-E-L

Typos make samurai_steve cry. :(

Sorry, Dyslexia runs in my family. Combine that with the fact that I am just not a good speller or typist to start with. As long as I am semi-coherent, I count it as a victory.

Ronin
7th October 04, 10:39 AM
Re-read what I posted, I don't think you understood.

Hatred, killing of innocents, intolerance, etc...
Those are the worst things that humans are capaable of.
And BOTH the Israelis and the Palestinians have that, in spades.

Judah Maccabee
7th October 04, 11:11 AM
No side has clean hands. That I agree with.

However, it's possible (and appropriate in my mind), to look at the facts and contexts and try to draw conclusions on culpability.

WingChun Lawyer
7th October 04, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by samurai_steve
However, it's possible (and appropriate in my mind), to look at the facts and contexts and try to draw conclusions on culpability.

You can blame individuals, yes. But it is impossible to place the blame on an entire population, and this works for both sides.

Trying to picture one side as "guilty" immediately places the other one in the confortable situation of "innocent".

Judah Maccabee
7th October 04, 12:23 PM
I don't aim to indict entire populations. However, facts on record and circumstances can implicate the people. Even if every single solitary German didn't support the annihilation of Jews and other "undesirables", there was an overwhelming enough consensus and support that collectively targeting the whole population for punishment was considered appropriate. I don't think the Palestinians have reached this point, though, even though close to 70% support suicide bombers against Israel.

inde
7th October 04, 12:34 PM
Read this please.


http://arabmediawatch.tripod.com/newspaper/journal040202.html

Edmonton Journal Editorial "Apocalyptic creed"
Tuesday, April 02, 2002


The Organization of the Islamic Conference is meeting this week in Malaysia for a summit on terrorism. But delegates are still squabbling over definitions, and many are torturing several different languages in a bid to excuse the suicide bombers who attack "Zionist targets" -- such as, say, families at a Passover seder. Israel, which is waging a military campaign against terrorists, will likely be smeared as a "terrorist state."

The conference will no doubt be a farce -- the predictable fate of any and all such dialogues about terrorism. Thankfully, weak Canadian foreign policy won't be on embarrassing display yet again -- Canada doesn't officially attend OIC gatherings.

Why can't some Muslims agree that killing innocent non-Muslims is unacceptable?

Part of the problem lies with Muslim civilization itself. As Samuel P. Huntington writes in The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order: "Wherever one looks along the perimeter of Islam, Muslims have problems living peaceably with their neighbours ... The conflicts within Islam (have also been) more numerous than those in any other civilization, including tribal conflicts in Africa."

But even by the barbaric standards of the Arab Middle East, Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian terrorist organizations that operate freely under his writ have hit new lows. Eighteen months ago, Arafat nursed the conceit that he could package the current conflict as a popular uprising. He put schools on holiday and sent thousands of children to throw rocks at Israeli soldiers. To ensure those soldiers were armed with live ammo, he deployed snipers in the background. The result: a steady supply of blood for Al Jazeera.

Remember Muhammad al-Dura, the 12-year-old Palestinian boy who died in his father's arms? He has become the centrepiece of a Palestinian Authority propaganda campaign urging children to emulate the "beauty of the martyr." But an in-depth documentary prepared for German television may explain why there was no autopsy on him: he was likely killed by Palestinians, perhaps deliberately.

Meanwhile, Israel reports that Palestinians are using ambulances to shuttle terrorists. In one incident, soldiers stopped an ambulance containing three small children -- plus an explosive belt hidden near the gurney. The sanctity of the ambulance is a fundamental precept of the laws of war. Yet for Palestinian terrorists, the Red Crescent is just another façade to hide behind on the way to driving the Jews into the sea.

The argument that suicide bombers are organic products of Israeli "aggression" is revolting nonsense. The plan to smuggle 50 tons of weapons from Iran on board the Karine A, a Palestinian Authority-commanded ship captured by Israeli commandos last year, was organized in 2000 -- before the current incursions, and just after Israel offered Arafat his own country.

The weapons on the Karine A included enough explosives to bring down an office building. And in their recent sweeps through Palestinian areas, Israeli soldiers have found caches of other terrorist tools banned by the Oslo accord. They include sniper rifles, rocket-propelled grenades and mortars in the possession of Palestinian Authority "policemen." Yet Arafat continues to live in a fantasy propaganda world in which he is still a great champion of peace. Over the weekend, he told Arab television Israel's invasion was "a response to all the peace attempts because they do not want peace. They do not want peace! ... These extremist elements murdered my partner Yitzhak Rabin. Why did they murder him? Because they do not want peace."

It is disgusting to hear Arafat mention Rabin, a man killed for his peaceful convictions, in the same breath as himself. Like his terrorist underlings, Arafat sees the lives of children -- Palestinian and Israeli both -- as fodder for the Arab ambition to ignite a regional war that will destroy Israel. He and his supporters must be isolated internationally, beaten down militarily and made to understand that Palestinians can never hope to have a country so long as they embrace the apocalyptic creed under which suicide bombers -- and Palestinians who cheer them on - explode themselves.

WingChun Lawyer
7th October 04, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by samurai_steve
I don't aim to indict entire populations. However, facts on record and circumstances can implicate the people. Even if every single solitary German didn't support the annihilation of Jews and other "undesirables", there was an overwhelming enough consensus and support that collectively targeting the whole population for punishment was considered appropriate. I don't think the Palestinians have reached this point, though, even though close to 70% support suicide bombers against Israel.

Fair point, but let us not forget that palestinians as a whole were and are harmed directly by israeli actions, whereas german citizens were not...this doesn´t justify the killing of innocents (on both sides, by both sides), but it at least explains something of the situation - there is no obvious bad guy there.

We do have a cycle there, and right now I don´t see suicidal bombers as better or worse than soldiers who kill children by accident.

WingChun Lawyer
7th October 04, 12:41 PM
"But even by the barbaric standards of the Arab Middle East, Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian terrorist organizations that operate freely under his writ have hit new lows."

Nice to know you´ve found an unbiased source, Indestructible!

inde
7th October 04, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
"But even by the barbaric standards of the Arab Middle East, Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian terrorist organizations that operate freely under his writ have hit new lows."

Nice to know you´ve found an unbiased source, Indestructible!

Someone needs to balance out PeeDee.

EDIT: How is using children as suicide bombers not barbaric?

Judah Maccabee
7th October 04, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer


We do have a cycle there, and right now I don´t see suicidal bombers as better or worse than soldiers who kill children by accident.

Come on. Deliberate targeting of busses, universities, and restaurants to maximize casualties vs. unintentional attacks?

Plus, when you have stuff like this going on, how can those kinds of casualties be avoided?

http://samurai.cgdhosting.net/pal-militant-use-kids-cover.jpg

http://samurai.cgdhosting.net/pal-militant-use-kids-cover-02.jpg

http://samurai.cgdhosting.net/MIDEASTSRAEgroot,0.jpg

PeedeeShaolin
7th October 04, 12:47 PM
Someone needs to balance out PeeDee.

First of all Peedee's source was the BBC...maybe thats SLIGHTLY more on point than your source, call me crazy. And Peedee just showed you where a TOP Israeli official has stated that Ariel Sharon was trying to derail the peace process with the approval of the U.S. Its not like I made the story up.

Secondly, you know next to nothing about this conflict. You have to read more.

inde
7th October 04, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by PeedeeShaolin
First of all Peedee's source was the BBC...maybe thats SLIGHTLY more on point than your source, call me crazy. And Peedee just showed you where a TOP Israeli official has stated that Ariel Sharon was trying to derail the peace process with the approval of the U.S. Its not like I made the story up.

Secondly, you know next to nothing about this conflict. You have to read more.

What about the TOP palestinians effort to derail the peace effort? What has Arafat done for peace other than endorse and encourage men , women and children to strap bombs on their bodies and kill cilvilians?

You don't know what I know, or what I read. Have you read the Palestinian National Charter? I have. I also follow the news regarding this conflict. Both sides have commited horrible deeds, but Isreal is not soley to blame as it appears to me that you suggest.

PeedeeShaolin
7th October 04, 01:22 PM
Both sides have commited horrible deeds, but Isreal is not soley to blame as it appears to me that you suggest.

Now that someone is talking English...of course I know that both sides have issues. But if you live in the U.S. the subject of ANY responsiblility on behalf of Israel is totally taboo. Its never even considered, thats why I mention this shiit so much.

Plus its been ISRAEL thats been all over the news and before the UN lately for their actions, not Palestine. Israels been killing like 10 to 1 or something and the U.S. just had to veto ANOTHER UN resolution condemning Israel and demanding they respect international law. Its getting crazy.

WingChun Lawyer
7th October 04, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by samurai_steve
Come on. Deliberate targeting of busses, universities, and restaurants to maximize casualties vs. unintentional attacks?

Plus, when you have stuff like this going on, how can those kinds of casualties be avoided?

I would hold Israel blameless weren´t it for the settlements, and for the continued interference such settlements seem to justify over palestine lives - frequently violent interference.

Quite frankly, if you put a colony with 2,000 of yours in the middle of enemy territory with 2,000,000 of theirs, and then keep control over their territory and their day to day lives (and deaths) for the sake of protecting your citizens (whom you put in harm´s way to begin with), you are responsible for the predictable violent consequences.

So I do consider the acts of israeli soldiers on palestinian territory as morally reproachable as the acts of suicide bombers in Tel Aviv. There are no innocents playing this game, on either side.


EDIT: How is using children as suicide bombers not barbaric?

As opposed to attacking people with helicopters, or levelling down their homes? Indestructible, go and rent Apocalypse Now, and check out the attack of the helicopters.

Judah Maccabee
7th October 04, 08:14 PM
That's not exactly accurate, Wingchun. The Palestinian Authority has autonomy over 90-95% of the Territories, and administers to them as part of the Oslo agreement. There are prohibitions from the IDF in certain matters. For example, PA police are not allowed to carry firearms due to the fact that when Israel GAVE them thousands of rifles as part of the Oslo Agreement, they used them not for law enforcement, but militant action against Israeli soldiers. However, there's been a controversial suggestion to allow PA policemen to start carrying revolvers, and it's making its way through the legislative prcoess.

Personally, I agree that settlements in a near-totality of the Territories are inappropriate and should be removed. However, the argument that settlements automatically cause problems is a little inaccurate. Here's what I mean (I don't fully agree with this perspective):

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf22a.html#b


From 1949-67, when Jews were forbidden to live on the West Bank, the Arabs refused to make peace with Israel.

From 1967-77, the Labor Party established only a few strategic settlements in the territories, yet the Arabs were unwilling to negotiate peace with Israel.

In 1977, months after a Likud government committed to greater settlement activity took power, Egyptian President Sadat went to Jerusalem and later signed a peace treaty with Israel. Incidentally, Israeli settlements existed in the Sinai and those were removed as part of the agreement with Egypt.

One year later, Israel froze settlement building for three months, hoping the gesture would entice other Arabs to join the Camp David peace process. But none would.

In 1994, Jordan signed a peace agreement with Israel and settlements were not an issue. If anything, the number of Jews living in the territories was growing.


Think about the circumstances that Israel occupied the territories under back in 1967 and 1973: It was a defensive war initiated by Arab states, who consequently lost. Basically, the dynamic is "Israel won a defensive war, and has to give up what it took back to the people who lost the war."

But in regards to your objections, my response is that if Palestinians were directly opposing Israeli military incursions into their territory, I would consider the loss of soldier's lives tragic, but part of the nature of war. However, we're talking about Israeli casualties who did nothing more than get on the wrong bus. This isn't an issue of "innocents" in regards to soldiers. This is in regards to "what are the circumstances of casualties?" But I acknowledge and believe that at a certain point, it don't matter what the reason was, death is death, and killing is killing. Regardless of the circumstances, it still means Daddy ain't home for dinner (or in some cases, Momma.)

That's why at some point, a political solution is necessary, even though Israel has established at this point that terrorism did not and will not get the Palestinians what they wanted. Prince Bandar of Saudi Arabia was apoplectic about Arafat turning down the Camp David agreement with Clinton and Barak, because it was better than anything the Palestinians ever had or would ever receive with Sharon or future Israeli leaders. Unfortunately, Arafat turned to violence.

My sense and understanding is that Mohammed Dahlan, a member of Arafats govt, but an opposition leader, will assume power once Arafat dies, and is more reasonable to negotiate with. But there is a current culture of violence and death going in the Palestinian society (and in other places of the Arab Islamic world) that are poisoning the people who'll be adults tomorrow. :(

It's unfortunate.

WingChun Lawyer
8th October 04, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by samurai_steve

1) Personally, I agree that settlements in a near-totality of the Territories are inappropriate and should be removed. However, the argument that settlements automatically cause problems is a little inaccurate. Here's what I mean (I don't fully agree with this perspective):

2) Think about the circumstances that Israel occupied the territories under back in 1967 and 1973: It was a defensive war initiated by Arab states, who consequently lost. Basically, the dynamic is "Israel won a defensive war, and has to give up what it took back to the people who lost the war."

3) But in regards to your objections, my response is that if Palestinians were directly opposing Israeli military incursions into their territory, I would consider the loss of soldier's lives tragic, but part of the nature of war. However, we're talking about Israeli casualties who did nothing more than get on the wrong bus. This isn't an issue of "innocents" in regards to soldiers. This is in regards to "what are the circumstances of casualties?" But I acknowledge and believe that at a certain point, it don't matter what the reason was, death is death, and killing is killing.

1) Settlements may not be the biggest cause of the conflict, but they are the reason I, personally, oppose the israeli cause against the palestinians. They represent a continuous aggression, both morally, physically and economically. A continued aggression demands armed response, and in war, shit happens - specially when it has been going for long enough. In such circunstances, and at least in my opinion, those who keep the continuing aggression bear the greater share of the burden.

2) That is a very fair point. Still, I believe building those settlements was the worst thing Israel could have done: if the israeli government wanted to avoid further unnecessary conflicts with the palestinian population, I believe it should have tried to isolate its citizens from the larger part of the palestinian population, and this meant either not taking the conquered land and returning to its original borders, or, if it really wanted those lands, kick out ALL the palestinians from said lands before making the settlements (terribly cruel, I know). Building those settlements that way was, I think, a bet - the goal was to try to make conditions for the palestinians bad enough that they would leave of their own accord, and Israel would not face the blame of doing that by itself. It seems to have backfired.

3) It is an unequal war, and it has been going for far too long. I believe things have come to the point when it is possible to say that the death of another palestinian child killed in crossfire is as morally wrong as the death of a mother in Tel Aviv who just got the wrong bus. Both sides have been facing continuous aggression for far, far too long.

Judah Maccabee
8th October 04, 12:58 PM
Well, now we've just plum reached points of contention that are more value-based than fact-based, and I try to stick away from those. However, let me repost a flyer that I indicated in another thread regarding proportions of casualties. %-wise, Israeli mothers have just as much reason to cry over dead children (not to mention grandfathers)...

http://samurai.cgdhosting.net/Flyer%202%20copy%20nologo.GIF (edited for size)

WingChun Lawyer
8th October 04, 01:01 PM
Yup, I think so too, we will have to agree to disagree on that. Still, it was a pleasure to talk to you about that issue, thanks for your time.

Judah Maccabee
8th October 04, 01:06 PM
V ^_^ V

Feryk
8th October 04, 03:44 PM
Perhaps, Peter, they should all line up outside of a city somewhere, and paint big targets on the top of their heads, just so the Israeli's won't have to kill anymore civilians.

It's a war, declared or not. They are hiding so they are harder to find. Of course they have to do it in the cities. That's the only place they can hide.

I have no position on the ethics of this conflict. The issues are thousands of years old, and run right up to this current conflict. I know I am really NOT qualified to know what is going on, except that people on both sides are dying, and no one seems to be able to stop it.

Peter H.
8th October 04, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by Feryk
Perhaps, Peter, they should all line up outside of a city somewhere, and paint big targets on the top of their heads, just so the Israeli's won't have to kill anymore civilians.


Normally, I wouldn't bother replying to a pathetic attempt to prolong what is essential an ended discussion with a bit of trolling against myself.

But I am in a good mood this afternoon as the company decided to provide a catered half day lunch with a massuer thrown into the mix.

So who the fuck rattled your cage monkey?

You admit to not being qualified and having no opinion. So, since you cannot contribute nor have anything to contribute, shut the fuck up, and don't try to cut your teeth on me for what is essential a statement of fact.

Freddy
8th October 04, 05:13 PM
" http://samurai.cgdhosting.net/Flyer%202%20copy%20nologo.GIF " (edited for size)

http://www.ict.org.il/
[Keep in mind the statistic here Only covers Sept 4, 2000 to May 1, 2004 and does not cover the entire history of the conflict.]

There are numerous problems with statistics in that region. One being who makes the statistics and how the statistics are made and what factors are left out (Who did the study? What are the statistics measuring?
Who was asked? How were they asked? Compared with what? The number of people asked? etc.).
Another being the fact that human right groups and U.N monitors and neutral parties have often been prevented or obstructed from visiting the region makes any form of statistic inaccurate or highly questionible.
Another problem who decides who is a Israeli or an Arab or citizen. There are Arabs/Palestinians who are considered Israeli citizens for example but there are also Palestinians/Arabs who are not considerd Israeli citizens (which can influence the statistical outcome greatly.)
Now if someone is i.e. afraid for his life or some form of reprisal for participating in a statistic this once again can influence the outcome of a statiscal study.

*(Not that I want to drag this into a debate about who is right or wrong. As my time on the computer is short. I wanted to point out the problems of statiscal study.)

Freddy
8th October 04, 05:23 PM
http://www.ict.org.il/ (Look under "Data Base" for the Israeli/Arab conflict) Its easier to read than whats below.

Breakdown of Fatalities: 27 September 2000 through 1 May 2004


Palestinians 2806 Israelis 921
No. of whom were female 126 No. of whom were female 285
Non-Combatants killed by Opposite Side
No. of whom were female 985


91 Non-Combatants killed by Opposite Side
No. of whom were female 715
280
Combatants killed by Opposite Side 1326 Combatants killed by Opposite Side 187
People killed by actions of own side 365 People killed by actions of own side 22
Non-Combatants below age 12 80 Non-Combatants below age 12 36
Non-Combatant Males between ages 12-29 535 Non-Combatant Males between ages 12-29 176
Non-Combatants Aged >= 45 82 Non-Combatants Aged >= 45 226

Feryk
8th October 04, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by Peter H.
Normally, I wouldn't bother replying to a pathetic attempt to prolong what is essential an ended discussion with a bit of trolling against myself.

But I am in a good mood this afternoon as the company decided to provide a catered half day lunch with a massuer thrown into the mix.

So who the fuck rattled your cage monkey?

You admit to not being qualified and having no opinion. So, since you cannot contribute nor have anything to contribute, shut the fuck up, and don't try to cut your teeth on me for what is essential a statement of fact.

Actually, I should apologize. I read your oversimplified, chest thumping rhetoric and didn't realize that it was at the end of a page, not the end of the thread. I didn't realize that your opinion was already old news (by that, I meant a day or two). But thanks for being a dick. Confirms my faith in humanity.

patfromlogan
8th October 04, 08:01 PM
Brilliant Comment Alert:

A couple I know went there and they said it was really bad. And they lived with Palestinians and said it took all day just to go several miles in their car, with tons of harrasment by guys with guns in Isreali uniforms. And John Le Carre's Little Drummer Girl convinced me of the essential errors that the Jews have made.

Peter H.
8th October 04, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by Feryk
Actually, I should apologize. I read your oversimplified, chest thumping rhetoric and didn't realize that it was at the end of a page, not the end of the thread. I didn't realize that your opinion was already old news (by that, I meant a day or two). But thanks for being a dick. Confirms my faith in humanity.

Your faith in humanity should be confirmed by the fact that your near iliterate ass has been allowed to live this long.

Here's a clue you should have STFU when you had the chance:


I have no position on the ethics of this conflict. The issues are thousands of years old, and run right up to this current conflict. I know I am really NOT qualified to know what is going on, except that people on both sides are dying, and no one seems to be able to stop it.

When you admit to having no opinion. and not knowing what is going on, that's your clue not to involve yourself. Your ignorance is in no way contributory or profound.

In the immortal words of Jim Rome:

Have a Take, Do not Suck

You fail on both counts.