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Ronin
20th September 04, 03:18 PM
Just wanted to point out something that caught my eye:

From Cap. Robert Gormly, in his book:
"Combat Swimmer"

“The SEAL experience in Vietnam was a microcosm of the larger US military experience.
We killed and captures a lot of communists but never on the real problem. The US fought the wrong type of war.
...But after awhile I realised that the best way to hurt the enemy was to cut off the heads of the political cadres that ran the show.
...We were fighting an ideology. Killing young man and women who had been forced, by terrorist means, into serving their communist masters, wasn’t going to defeat the ideology. The only way to do that was to capture or kill the ones spreading the ideas.
The communist movement was like a giant lizard...each time we hacked off a portion of the tail and proclaimed a victory, the head grew more tail.
The communist strategy was simple- keep fighting until enough political pressure built up in America to get out of the war.
The communist leaders knew that if they could prolong the war, we’d eventually tire and go home-that was the lesson in Korea “

Now replace Vietnam with Iraq and communist with terrorists.

Interesting...

WingChun Lawyer
20th September 04, 03:25 PM
Point is, what is the ideology of the iraqi insurgents/terrorists/fanatics/bad people?

My guess: mostly it is a bit of nationalism mixed with religious fanaticism. It is a much deeper, (and dangerous) ideology than something created in the latter 19th century as communism, and it cannot be demonized that easily today. There was some trouble when Bush used the word "crusade" relating it to terrorism, remember?

The US government simply cannot fight a religious ideology, it can only attack its manifestations.

KhorneliusPraxx
20th September 04, 03:27 PM
I don't feel like thinking about this stuff today. I prefer the softer side of Roni. Where can I go to see some of your girly pics?

Ronin
20th September 04, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
. It is a much deeper, (and dangerous) ideology than something created in the latter 19th century as communism, and it cannot be demonized that easily today. There was some trouble when Bush used the word "crusade" relating it to terrorism, remember?

The US government simply cannot fight a religious ideology, it can only attack its manifestations.

Yes, indeed.
The "rebels" have no problem in fighting this war for decades, does the US ?

Phrost
20th September 04, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
Point is, what is the ideology of the iraqi insurgents/terrorists/fanatics/bad people?

My guess: mostly it is a bit of nationalism mixed with religious fanaticism. It is a much deeper, (and dangerous) ideology than something created in the latter 19th century as communism, and it cannot be demonized that easily today. There was some trouble when Bush used the word "crusade" relating it to terrorism, remember?

The US government simply cannot fight a religious ideology, it can only attack its manifestations.

It's a mixed bag.

The Sunni minority, which under the Ba'ath regime was held absolute power under Hussein wants it back.

The Islamofascists in Iran, Syria, etc, are sending in agents to stir up sentiment against the new government because a Democratic Afghanistan AND Iraq shift the power from the Mullahs and Dictators to the people.

The Wahabist Terrorists, Al Qaeda, Ansar Al Islam, and the like, are more indirectly related to the Islamofascists, though operating under the delusion they're doing it for the glory of their religion when they're really just willing tools to keep current power structures in place.

Freddy
20th September 04, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by ronin69
Yes, indeed.
The "rebels" have no problem in fighting this war for decades, does the US ?

Or if history has shown (with the Crusades) for centuries. :eek:

SRK85
20th September 04, 06:41 PM
Wow our foreign policy sucks.

LOVED2BLOVED
20th September 04, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by KhorneliusPraxx
I don't feel like thinking about this stuff today. I prefer the softer side of Roni. Where can I go to see some of your girly pics?

im feeling exactly the same,

punchingdummy
20th September 04, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by ronin69
Yes, indeed.
The "rebels" have no problem in fighting this war for decades, does the US ?

Yes, the US has a problem. Our short attention spans and political need for quick little wars has been our archiles heel for decades. They know it. We know it. But we are certainly not going to change it given the political environment in the US today..

Ronin
21st September 04, 07:45 AM
This is a war that will not end anytime soon and the cost in lives will get higher and higher.
This may will be one of the US's biggest mistakes.

TylerDurden
21st September 04, 08:47 AM
If it was your home would you stop fighting? That's the problem. That's what beat the Germans in the USSR in WWII. That's what beat the USSR in Afghanistan, that's what beat the US in Vietnam.

They people who live there want us out. We have someplace else to go, they don't. So they have nothing else to do but fight, and with Islamic priests promising them great rewards if they die they don't see a downside to fighting. This is not a war you can "win".

patfromlogan
21st September 04, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by ronin69
Killing young man and women who had been forced, by terrorist means, into serving their communist masters, wasn’t going to defeat the ideology. The only way to do that was to capture or kill the ones spreading the ideas.

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/american_involvement_in_vietnam.htm
http://coombs.anu.edu.au/~vern/van_kien/declar.html
http://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/AdvisingTheVietMinh.html

The logic is flawed. While some soldiers were certainly forced to serve the communists, the anti US forces werre nationalistic in essence and didn't need to be coerced.

When Ho Chi Minh spoke the words below, he had OSS officers by his side, in Hanoi's Ba Dinh Square on September 2, 1945. The OSS officers were telling their superiors in DC to back Ho Chi Minh. They said that he had the army, the political organization, and was a national hero. The liked him as a person and were arming his troops.

"All men are created equal. They are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness"

This immortal statement was made in the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America m 1776. In a broader sense, this means: All the peoples on the earth are equal from birth, all the peoples have a right to live, to be happy and free.

The Declaration of the French Revolution made in 1791 on the Rights of Man and the Citizen also states: "All men are born free and with equal rights, and must always remain free and have equal rights." Those are undeniable truths.

Nevertheless, for more than eighty years, the French imperialists, abusing the standard of Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity, have violated our Fatherland and oppressed our fellow-citizens. They have acted contrary to the ideals of humanity and justice. In the field of politics, they have deprived our people of every democratic liberty."



Secondly, the war of attrition, Macnamara's great big stupid idea, ignored history/reality, and he knew it was wrong by 1967, just too chicken to go public, he let thousands die in what he KNEW to be hopeless (the Vietnamese on the other hand WERE willing to take enormous loses).

But yes, to get back to your premise, as the death count grows, the resolve of the US public to support this war will fade. Largely because the reasons are bullshit, just like the reasons for the Vietnam War. I think that Americans would fight to the death for a real reason, but who wants to die for Halliburton and Exon?

SRK85
21st September 04, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by patfromlogan
http://www.rationalrevolution.net/american_involvement_in_vietnam.htm
http://coombs.anu.edu.au/~vern/van_kien/declar.html
http://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/AdvisingTheVietMinh.html

The logic is flawed. While some soldiers were certainly forced to serve the communists, the anti US forces werre nationalistic in essence and didn't need to be coerced.

When Ho Chi Minh spoke the words below, he had OSS officers by his side, in Hanoi's Ba Dinh Square on September 2, 1945. The OSS officers were telling their superiors in DC to back Ho Chi Minh. They said that he had the army, the political organization, and was a national hero. The liked him as a person and were arming his troops.

"All men are created equal. They are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness"

This immortal statement was made in the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America m 1776. In a broader sense, this means: All the peoples on the earth are equal from birth, all the peoples have a right to live, to be happy and free.

The Declaration of the French Revolution made in 1791 on the Rights of Man and the Citizen also states: "All men are born free and with equal rights, and must always remain free and have equal rights." Those are undeniable truths.

Nevertheless, for more than eighty years, the French imperialists, abusing the standard of Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity, have violated our Fatherland and oppressed our fellow-citizens. They have acted contrary to the ideals of humanity and justice. In the field of politics, they have deprived our people of every democratic liberty."



Secondly, the war of attrition, Macnamara's great big stupid idea, ignored history/reality, and he knew it was wrong by 1967, just too chicken to go public, he let thousands die in what he KNEW to be hopeless (the Vietnamese on the other hand WERE willing to take enormous loses).

But yes, to get back to your premise, as the death count grows, the resolve of the US public to support this war will fade. Largely because the reasons are bullshit, just like the reasons for the Vietnam War. I think that Americans would fight to the death for a real reason, but who wants to die for Halliburton and Exon?

Yea Ho Chi Minh wanted our support but we turned our shoulders so then Ho Chi Minh went to the soviets for help and got it.

Freddy
21st September 04, 02:13 PM
The only thing I have to say is hint hint:

ALGERIA