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Jo Vale Tudo
10th September 04, 09:30 PM
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5955784/

MSNBC and The Washington Post vs CBS and 60 Minutes.

I was watching Hannity and Colmes and they had Gary Killian (son of Lt. Commander Jerry Killian) He said that his father stated George Bush was an excellent aviator and that the documents are fake. (Jerry Killian supposedly signed the documents) Earlier, Killian's wife also told the media the same thing. Retired Marine Colonel Oliver North also told the media that he's written hundreds of military documents around that time and that the one CBS doesn't look like the documents back then. He also believes the documents are fake.

I'm starting to believe they are fake too. I have the pdf files of the documents. Here's the signature differences. The first one is his actual signature. The second one is what appears on the documents.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/johanzen/killian.jpg

katana
10th September 04, 09:31 PM
Look at this Blog. Pretty suspicious if you ask me:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=12526_Bush_Guard_Documents-_Forged

DJeter1234
10th September 04, 09:35 PM
""This report was not based solely on recovered documents, but rather on a preponderance of evidence, including documents that were provided by unimpeachable sources, interviews with former Texas National Guard officials and individuals who worked closely back in the early 1970s with Colonel Jerry Killian and were well acquainted with his procedures, his character and his thinking," the statement read.

"In addition, the documents are backed up not only by independent handwriting and forensic document experts but by sources familiar with their content," the statement continued. "Contrary to some rumors, no internal investigation is underway at CBS News nor is one planned." "

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/06/politics/main641481.shtml

later in the artical it explains the raised number/type font etc. It also says that profesional signature analyst say the sigs are identical. Are you sure that the "real" signature you have there is real? Not to be picky, but I doubt they'd stick by something as obviouse as that signature if it was that obviosuly a fake

edit: that blog thing is pretty damning if true. I expect this to be straightened out in a week or so.

Jo Vale Tudo
10th September 04, 09:39 PM
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=12526_Bush_Guard_Documents-_Forged

This is the original:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/johanzen/doc-cbs.gif

This is what he made:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/johanzen/doc-microsoftword.gif

Jo Vale Tudo
10th September 04, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by DJeter1234
""This report was not based solely on recovered documents, but rather on a preponderance of evidence, including documents that were provided by unimpeachable sources, interviews with former Texas National Guard officials and individuals who worked closely back in the early 1970s with Colonel Jerry Killian and were well acquainted with his procedures, his character and his thinking," the statement read.

"In addition, the documents are backed up not only by independent handwriting and forensic document experts but by sources familiar with their content," the statement continued. "Contrary to some rumors, no internal investigation is underway at CBS News nor is one planned." "

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/06/politics/main641481.shtml

later in the artical it explains the raised number/type font etc. It also says that profesional signature analyst say the sigs are identical. Are you sure that the "real" signature you have there is real? Not to be picky, but I doubt they'd stick by something as obviouse as that signature if it was that obviosuly a fake

edit: that blog thing is pretty damning if true. I expect this to be straightened out in a week or so.

Yes I've read these claims. But I am paying more attention to Killian's family members, former soldiers and evidence I can actually evaluate myself. I haven't made a conclusion that they're fake or real yet, but right now with what I know I am starting to believe they are indeed fake. And yes, that signature is real.

DJeter1234
10th September 04, 09:54 PM
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/9/10/34914/1603

at least this explains how they match up exactly and gives so new ecidence. I'm still reading it, actually. whadya think?

Jo Vale Tudo
10th September 04, 09:58 PM
Very very interesting. I'm still weighing out the facts and proofs as I get more information. President Bush himself said he wanted all his military records released to the public, which is a good sign. Still from what I know as of right now, I still lean towards the fact that they're fake documents... we'll keep each other updated in this post. :)

katana
10th September 04, 11:02 PM
I'm still waiting for Kerry to release the rest of his records BTW.

It's silly that this whole debate is even going on. Kerry was a complete moron for wrapping himself up in his Vietnam service instead of focusing on his congressional record.

Rigante
10th September 04, 11:08 PM
I agree I have said that before Kerry is an idiot for continuing to stir up the Vietnam issue, but he isnt exactly the best and the brightest.

Jo Vale Tudo
10th September 04, 11:10 PM
Yeah, some of Kerry's records are on his site but not all. I'm not as concerned about him and Vietnam as I am his congressional records. I think like he served honorably when he was there. When he came back, he protested against the war and threw away his medals, which I didn't agree with, but come on that's like 35 years ago. He was younger and less mature. Still, I'd like to hear more in his speeches which are mostly occupied by three things: "I'm not Bush" "I was in Vietnam" "Bush is bad"

These documents could very well be an attack from the left just to even things out cause the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth attacked Kerry's own record. Just my suspicions though.

katana
10th September 04, 11:45 PM
I just saw an interview from someone who was in Bush's unit in Texas. Yes, it was on Fox News but what the hell.

Anyway, the retired officer claims that (General) Staudt referred to in the "sugar coat" memo was retired from the Texas Air National Guard in 1972. The memo was dated 1973 so he was puzzled as to why anyone would be concerned over what the General would think. Also he stated the Acronym used in the memo "OETR" is incorrect for the fitness report as it was called in the 1970's. He also doesn't know any reason why an officer would write a memo to himself saying such a thing. Lastly, the physicals given in the 1970's were only for pilot fitness and didn't do drug tests. Drug tests in the Air Force didn't start until 1981. So everyone speculating that Bush supposedly was skipping the test to avoid a drug test is also wrong.

katana
10th September 04, 11:47 PM
Let me state one more time:

Kerry is a complete moron for wrapping himself up in his Vietnam service. A one semester political science student could have seen this. He shouldn't be elected just for being such a bonehead.

Alex
11th September 04, 12:45 AM
well its either him or bush, and I have to say as dumb as Kerry seems, he cant be any thicker than Bush.

Leodom
11th September 04, 09:30 AM
Imagine this, CBS and Dan Rather-biased, discounted the testimony of Mr. Killian's son because he was "too Pro-Bush" but they take as gospel the word of Kerry campaign operative Ben Barnes.

They are ridiculous and so is anyone who believes the crap 60 minutes, CBS and Rather-biased are saying on this issue.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/9/11/100726.shtml

Rigante
11th September 04, 12:53 PM
The daughter of Ben Barnes has come out publically stating she believes her father is lying about this issue. In 2000 she specifically discussed this with him and he told her a totally opposite story. Apparently this had been an issue in 1999 etc and she wanted to get clarification at that time. Its to bad "Fair and balanced" CBS cant do a more thorough check on its news but then it probably has other agendas.

Leodom
11th September 04, 01:10 PM
To follow up on Katana's post regarding Staudt's retirement before the "writing" of the memo.

http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/special_packages/election2004/9633814.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp

An order obtained by The Dallas Morning News shows that Col. Walter "Buck" Staudt was honorably discharged on March 1, 1972. CBS News reported this week that a memo in which Staudt was described as interfering with officers' negative evaluations of Bush's service, was dated Aug. 18, 1973.

Another thing. What does the subject of the memo, CYA, mean? Was CYA used for "Cover Your Ass" in the early 70s, and if so, would anyone really use it in that vein in the subject line of a memo? Is it supposed to stand for Cover Your Ass or something else in this case?

Jo Vale Tudo
12th September 04, 03:48 AM
Update!

The Killian family has come forth and said that, not only is it completely out of character for him to have written these private memos to himself, not only is it not written in his writing style whatsoever, but they provided dozens of examples of his signature, and the one on the document doesn't match up at all.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/johanzen/killian.jpg

The letter claims that then Private Bush was directly ordered to get a Physical Exam, but Guardsmen are never actually given orders to get routine exams, it's all on a schedule. Also, the letter says he's afraid of the reaction of his CO and that he'd be punished if he told someone about his qualms, but the CO he mentions was already RETIRED at the time the letter was supposedly written. (as Leodom mentioned above)

CBS is refusing to release the documents to be analyzed.