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Phoenix
25th August 04, 12:29 AM
I'm a little worried about Kerry. I was glad to see the Democrats get on message for their convention but I was disheartened to hear that the message was gonna be "Kerry is a War President." I mean, I see how that can play, Bush is certainly vulnerable on the How of his wars -- but by attacking the How Kerry seems to be leaving the Why and the Whether out to dry. It's almost as though he simply asumes he's got the anti-war vote in the bag and now he's winking at us and saying, "Okay, now this next stuff I say about how I support the war, that's just to get some of those undecideds on board. I'm still with you." At least, I hope that's what he's doing; the only other option is that he's serious, that he does actually feel some foolish need to plow ahead with this mistake now it's underway.

He's way behind America on this, of course; well over half Americans polled now realize that Iraq was a big mistake. Unfortunately, Kerry lost his best chance to articulate an anti-war position months ago when he failed to say something like "When I voted to authorize war I made a mistake, the same mistake millions of other Americans did, which is that I trusted this President. I trusted him to use war as a last resort; now we know he wanted war all along. I trusted him to be honest about the threat posed by Iraq; now we know his case was built on distortion and deception. And I trusted him to wage war wisely, with support of our allies and the United Nations, properly prepared and organized for the long job of reconstruction; now we see he couldn't even do that." With Kerry's current position all he can use now is that last bit.

What we really need is someone to stand up and say not just that this War on Iraq was wrong, but that this whole policy of "pre-emptive warfare" is an insane recipe for global anarchy. And while we're at it, it'd be handy if someone denounced the War on Terror as the sham it is. What has to happen for this war to be over? When can we declare victory? We can't, and if we're fighting a war we can't win, we're fighting the wrong war.

punchingdummy
25th August 04, 07:36 AM
I still believe that 75% of people who believe this war was wrong have no clue what the war is really about. That is where I find the Bushies incredibly incompetent...that they have completely bungled the diplomatic and public relations efforts related to it's support.

Americans who think this was a wrong war because we found minimal WMD are just stupid.

PeedeeShaolin
25th August 04, 07:53 AM
Americans think its wrong because we invaded a nation that was no threat to us. We did it against the UN which is the very democratic body we set up. Civil war has errupted, terrorism there shot up 1000% and Americans AND Iraqis are dying almost everyday.

On the top of the shit heap this war has left us in the worst financial situation I can remember and nearly every top military offical admits the planning and execution was piss poor and there was no exit strategy and no strategy on realistic stability.

Saddam Husein had contracts with Haliburton. Now, thanks to the Iraq War and my tax dollars, Haliburton gets those contracts back in the form of NO BID contracts....for which they have thus far not accounted for $1.8 BILLON.

Surprise surprise.

Leodom
25th August 04, 07:59 AM
Originally posted by PeedeeShaolin
...

Saddam Husein had contracts with Haliburton...



Source? Timeframe? Was this prior to '91?

Balloonknot
25th August 04, 08:06 AM
Yeah Punching Dummy is right, most people don't know that this war was really about oil and contracts!

Leodom
25th August 04, 08:11 AM
Hey, did you know that Kerry wrote a book? You'd think that a published author running for President might take advantage of the publicity and allow a new printing of his book to sell to all of his supporters. Surely he's not embarrassed about what he wrote? I wonder why it is nearly impossible to find copies of Kerry's book, "The New Soldier".

If anyone here has a copy, I would be very interested in reading some excerpts from it.

Leodom
25th August 04, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by Balloonknot
Yeah Punching Dummy is right, most people don't know that this war was really about oil and contracts!

You know, that has to be the stupidest comment I continue to hear about this war. If it was about oil then why the hell are oil prices RISING? You idiot. If we just wanted the oil we could have taken it and to hell with the rest of the country. We could do like China which sent troops to Sudan to protect their pipeline project while the rest of the country goes around killing each other.

BK, take another toke, meditate a little bit, eat some fiber, do some tai chi, quit whining and pump some iron. IOW, get a life.

PeedeeShaolin
25th August 04, 08:21 AM
Source? Timeframe? Was this prior to '91?

You have to educate yourself old boy. Why do I have to do it for you? It WAS a while ago but Cheney swore up and down that Haliburton had no contracts with Sadamm after the Gulf War....all bullshit......but on PAPER.....

A Haliburton sub held those contracts. All the same shit but just another way of coming out squeaky clean when you wallow in the dirt.

Haliburton also had contracts in a BRUTAL regime in the former Burma.

Haliburton has also dealt with Iran in spite of U.S. opposition:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3908753.stm


Of course after Haliburton started openly stealing money Pentagon auditors wanted to withhold payments:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3557470.stm

But you just can't fuck with Big Dick and his money and so the Army, with no explanation, decided to suspend its decision to hit Haliburton with a 15% payment fine or $60 million a MONTH. The Army of course gave NO explanation as to why they did a 180:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3574824.stm

Don't try and defend Haliburton man. You'd be fucking your own country in the ass without a courtesy rub.

PeedeeShaolin
25th August 04, 08:23 AM
Oil is a HUGE part of it, although not the only part.

Leodom
25th August 04, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by PeedeeShaolin
You have to educate yourself old boy. Why do I have to do it for you? It WAS a while ago but Cheney swore up and down that Haliburton had no contracts with Sadamm after the Gulf War....all bullshit......but on PAPER.....

A Haliburton sub held those contracts. All the same shit but just another way of coming out squeaky clean when you wallow in the dirt.



So a supplier to Halliburton had contracts with Saddam. PD, do you know anything about international business? I am sure that Halliburton has hundreds, if not thousands of suppliers. Some of them probably pretty specialized. The fact that one of them also had business with Saddam in NO WAY means that Halliburton is connected. That's like saying that one of the companies that General Motors gets steel from also supplies steel to a construction company in Iraq. Does this mean that GM is "dirty". No way. Now, if you had specifics and could show that Halliburton was directing the work and receiving profit from it, you might have a story.

As for the rest of that BS. I'll repeat what I said before. If Cheney had wanted to, he could have kept his job at Halliburton, NOT taken a pay cut, installed a puppet VP, and made out MUCH better than how he is perceived to be making out now.

BTW, I'll look it up myself, but since Cheney's financial link to Halliburton is now based solely on stock, how has Halliburton stock performed between July 2000 and now? I haven't checked yet so I may be in for a surprise.

punchingdummy
25th August 04, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by Balloonknot
Yeah Punching Dummy is right, most people don't know that this war was really about oil and contracts!

Oil, yes. Contracts, perhaps. But it's about MUCH more than that.

Leodom
25th August 04, 08:35 AM
Here is the chart on Halliburton stock over the last 5 years. It appears to have dropped from about 50 to about 30 from mid 2000 until now.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=HAL&t=5y

The truth is, Cheney's stock has dropped by about 40%.

Edit: I also compared to nasdaq, dow, & S&P 500; Halliburton has under-performed all of them over the last 5 years. Yeah, Cheney's making a bundle with his Halliburton stock :rolleyes:

PeedeeShaolin
25th August 04, 08:48 AM
Cheney is no longer CEO. And he STILL makes more money from it than every memebr of this board combined. So YES he IS making a bundle with his Haliburton stock.

Leodom
25th August 04, 08:52 AM
Originally posted by PeedeeShaolin
Cheney is no longer CEO. And he STILL makes more money from it than every memebr of this board combined. So YES he IS making a bundle with his Haliburton stock.

Did you look at the chart? A drop of 40% in value is not "making a bundle" He may be worth more on paper than everyone on this board but he is losing money in his Halliburton stock. repeat--he is LOSING money in his Halliburton stock.

CaptShady
25th August 04, 09:04 AM
Someone clue me in .. if the war was "all about oil" .. and we won .. why are prices constantly going up?

Gelid Light
25th August 04, 09:21 AM
Astounding ignorance. The international trade in oil is conducted in dollars, which means countries are forced to maintain massive dollar reserves. These reserves make the dollar a currency franca and keep demand for the dollar high and its value stable. Recently, the prominence of the Euro has begun to threaten the dollar's position. If it were to be supplanted, the US could face a significant currency crisis (think Thailand). However, if the US managed to gain control of one of the largest oil producers, Iraq, then it could prevent that from happening, which allows the US to continue operating with a massive deficit, which makes politicians happy.

PeedeeShaolin
25th August 04, 09:24 AM
Someone clue me in .. if the war was "all about oil" .. and we won .. why are prices constantly going up?

Because the DEMAND for oil is CRAZY. Its a precious resource and we, Americans in particular, waste it and burn it like its cow shit.

Just read about how many barrels extra need to be imported because of SUVs alone.

CaptShady
25th August 04, 09:28 AM
That argument doesn't hold water with me. Pre 9-11, the prices weren't all that bad. And less than a year before we went to Iraq, what was the national average? I'll bet far far less than since we "won" the war. SUV's have been around for over a decade now, and they still burn less than say, a '74 Impala. Gas prices have gone through the roof .. LATELY.

PeedeeShaolin
25th August 04, 09:31 AM
...and some people are making ALOT of money as a result aren't they?

If I sell cars and suddenly DOUBLE the price do you think I'd be crying over it when people were buying no less cars from me than before?

The people who sit on those oil boards are making some healthy green too YAY for them!

PeedeeShaolin
25th August 04, 09:34 AM
Hey! How many people from the Bush Administration are invloved in oil?

Well SHIVER ME TIMBERS if it isn't EVERY SINGLE PERSON from Colin Powell to Dick Cheney to Rummy Rumsfeld to Condi Rice! Whaddaya know?

Balloonknot
25th August 04, 09:34 AM
Some people will never learn.... OIL. Here's a question.... If we did control all of the oil in the middle east, what makes you think that gas prices would go down? I can't think of too many corporations that want to lower prices when they "control" a particular market.

PeedeeShaolin
25th August 04, 09:36 AM
I can't think of too many corporations that want to lower prices when they "control" a particular market.

Bullshit.

Corporations are looking out for me and you. They can be trusted to regulate themselves because they have LEARNED from the past and have our best interests in mind.

Ronald Reagan said so.

Gelid Light
25th August 04, 09:37 AM
I already explained this. Here's a speech by an OPEC employee:

http://www.opec.org/NewsInfo/Speeches/sp2002/spAraqueSpainApr14.htm

PeedeeShaolin
25th August 04, 09:40 AM
I wonder how many people wrote that speech for the guy who gave it and how many people actually listened when he spoke?

CaptShady
25th August 04, 09:40 AM
Okay .. it's an election year .. if they controlled so much of the oil market share, then wouldn't you think that prices going DOWN would help a re-election campaign?

Gelid Light
25th August 04, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by PeedeeShaolin
I wonder how many people wrote that speech for the guy who gave it and how many people actually listened when he spoke?

In case you hadn't noticed, I am backing your argument. Take a break from your Shaolin Kung Fu and read up on this issue.

PeedeeShaolin
25th August 04, 09:43 AM
I wasn't hacking at you I was just poking fun at the guys speech.

Balloonknot
25th August 04, 09:45 AM
Gelid, now your committing blashphemy!!!

punchingdummy
25th August 04, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by Gelid Light
I already explained this. Here's a speech by an OPEC employee:

http://www.opec.org/NewsInfo/Speeches/sp2002/spAraqueSpainApr14.htm

That's a laughable speech.