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patfromlogan
20th December 02, 10:50 AM
Bush's new favorite song

Sung to the tune of "If You're Happy and You Know it":

If we cannot find Osama, bomb Iraq.
If the markets hurt your Mama, bomb Iraq.
If the terrorists are Saudi
And the bank takes back your Audi
And the TV shows are bawdy,
Bomb Iraq.

If the corporate scandals growin', bomb Iraq.
And your ties to them are showin', bomb Iraq.
If the smoking gun ain't smokin'
We don't care, and we're not jokin'.
That Saddam will soon be croakin',
Bomb Iraq.


Even if we have no allies, bomb Iraq.
From the sand dunes to the valleys, bomb Iraq.
So to hell with the inspections;
Let's look tough for the elections,
Close your mind and take directions,
Bomb Iraq.


While the globe is slowly warming, bomb Iraq.
Yay! the clouds of war are storming, bomb Iraq.
If the ozone hole is growing,
Some things we prefer not knowing.
(Though our ignorance is showing),
Bomb Iraq.


So here's one for dear old daddy, bomb Iraq,
From his favorite little laddy, bomb Iraq.
Saying no would look like treason.
It's the Hussein hunting season.
Even if we have no reason,
Bomb Iraq.

miguksaram
20th December 02, 11:05 AM
LOL Loved that one.

Jeremy M. Talbott
http://www.homestead.com/koreanma/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/jns1994/MSA.html

SLJ
20th December 02, 12:00 PM
Very good.

----------------------------------------------------------
”He (Master Bristol) was like a slippery fish. There was no way I could hold on to him.” -- Tomas Shurrman, Judo Expert

Groganer
20th December 02, 12:05 PM
Lame.

Even the FRENCH say that Iraq is in material breech of the UN proposal.

Second, the ozone hole is getting smaller. Our country emits a third of the toxins it did just 50 years ago, and we're one of the cleanest around.

Third, there is a reason. It's called security. Now, I know all of you will say, "then why don't we go after Korea, blah blah blah" I'll say, "one at a time - two at the most."

Seriously, get over yourselves. It's not your job to tell the president what to do. You elected him to be the leader of this country, let him lead. He's well within the boundaries of our laws and until he isn't, you can't get rid of him until 2004.

SamHarber
20th December 02, 12:28 PM
Foriegn policy is dictated by pragmatism at best. Thats why nobody batted an eyelid at the chinese invasion of Tibet. Nobody in the west made money from them, and it was too difficult for the UN to deploy an armed force. Even the UK's supposed "ethical foreign policy" is best described as laughably inept and doomed to failure.

ksmythe
20th December 02, 12:30 PM
Groganer let's see the sources of your claims concerning pollution rates.








"Gentlemen! No fighting in here! This is the War Room."

ksmythe
20th December 02, 12:50 PM
Iraq has been in violation of UN resolutions for the past 10 years including firing on coalition aircraft in the no-fly zones.
We didn't do much then. Why suddenly a weeks before the fall midterm election with the economy in the shitter was it so necessary to start drum beating?

Let's face....
-Iraqi ties to Al Quaeda aren't there.
-Both the CIA and the British intelligence agencies initially assessed Iraq's WMD threat as not imminent (sp).
- You don't see Iraq's neighbors i.e. Saudi Arabia and Kuwait
shaking in their boots from "madama" Sadam.
- We're not seeing this evidence that shows Iraq posseses
this WMD threat that the administration claims.

What's wrong with questioning the presidents judgement? Isn't that what a free and open society is about?



"Gentlemen! No fighting in here! This is the War Room."

Bolverk
20th December 02, 01:11 PM
Iraq has been in violation of UN resolutions for the past 10 years including firing on coalition aircraft in the no-fly zones.
We didn't do much then. Why suddenly a weeks before the fall midterm election with the economy in the shitter was it so necessary to start drum beating?


Because, for eight of the last ten years we had a President who did nothing concerning Iraq, his name was Bill Clinton. Now that we have someone who is actually trying to enforce the situtation, you claim it is only for the purpose of elections. Did I miss something on 9/11?



Let's face....
-Iraqi ties to Al Quaeda aren't there.


Actually, there have been many ties related to Iraq and Al Qaeda. All one has to do is read a reliable news source to find them.



-Both the CIA and the British intelligence agencies initially assessed Iraq's WMD threat as not imminent (sp).


Under which administration?



- You don't see Iraq's neighbors i.e. Saudi Arabia and Kuwait
shaking in their boots from "madama" Sadam.


How about Israel? Or Turkey? Turkey is the most prominent of Muslim Nations, yet they have a secular government, and back us in our position on Iraq.



- We're not seeing this evidence that shows Iraq posseses
this WMD threat that the administration claims.


Do you think you could find what you are looking for in a country the size of California with just 50 people, especially if someone does not want you to find it. And why is evidence neccessary to show, after all, they are not on trial here. You would be a fool to believe a maniacal ego-mainiac like Saddam Hussein (So Damn Insane) would not have such weapons or porgrams to create them. After all, he wiped out 20,000 of his own people with chemical weapons, that qualifies as mass destruction.



What's wrong with questioning the presidents judgement? Isn't that what a free and open society is about?


There is nothing wrong with questioning the Presidents judgement, as long as you don't get upset when people question yours.

Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
Willing is not enough, we must do.

Edited by - Bolverk on December 20 2002 12:12:43

ksmythe
20th December 02, 01:18 PM
Bolwerk... ahem no actually there has been very little evidence of ties between Iraq and Al Quaeda. In fact the Iraqi government has sought distance itself from Al Quaeda.

Immediatly when the president began talking about Iraq violations last October there were several reports coming out of the CIA, the british MI5 and the french intelligence agency that contradicted the presidents claims ... all of which were in the news.




"Gentlemen! No fighting in here! This is the War Room."

ksmythe
20th December 02, 01:27 PM
Here's a nice story for ya

http://www.latimes.com/la-na-cia11oct11,0,2360915.story


"Gentlemen! No fighting in here! This is the War Room."

Bolverk
20th December 02, 01:27 PM
Groganer let's see the sources of your claims concerning pollution rates.


Actually, Groganer is correct. California has reduced its pollution rate well below the National Standard by having the strictest pollution controls on vehicles. But this has not stopped people from implementing other programs in the name of the enviroment which have actually done harm on the enviroment. MTBE comes speciffically to mind. It was introduced as an oxygenate to reduce emissions from automobiles, but low and behold, it is contaminating water supplies.

The ozone hole has become far smaller, and closed earlier then last year. And last year it was smaller and closed earlier then the previous year. Why? Who really knows. Perhaps the ozone layer is being affected by forces beyond human control, such as plasma engergy emitted by the sun, which is one theory that is becoming more prominent as more study of the situation progresses.

Global warming. A science based on a faulty computer model that measured ground based tempratures. They forgot to factor in the heat retention created by cities. When the tempratures were measured in the upper atmosphere, no significant changes were found. And lets not forget that food production has gone up with the increase in crop growth because of natural temprature changes and better growing techniques. Also, the temprature would only change by 1/100th of a percent if all of Kyoto was implemented and human carbon dioxide emissons were sharply reduced, but is that worth the economic impact? Besides, don't plants breath carbon dioxide?

I could go on. Many people who were once on your side of the issue have found the claims by enviromentalists refutable. Try Greenspirit.com for one of them. And recently a prominent ex-Greenpeace statistician found the claims on Global Warming to be way over stated, and he was out to prove someone else on the other side of the issue wrong.

Enough said.

Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
Willing is not enough, we must do.

Edited by - Bolverk on December 20 2002 12:29:24

Edited by - Bolverk on December 20 2002 12:30:20

Groganer
20th December 02, 01:33 PM
EPA's latest air quality report shows that air quality nationwide continues to improve, although ground-level ozone (smog) is on the rise in certain parts of the country, including many rural areas.

The report shows a number of improvements in the 10 years 1989-1998:


lead concentrations decreased 56 percent; carbon monoxide fell 39 percent;


sulfur dioxide also declined 39 percent;


coarse particulate matter (dirt, dust, soot) dropped 25 percent;

nitrogen dioxide was pared 14 percent; and smog was reduced 4 percent.

As found on http://www.epa.gov/epahome/headline2_0504.htm

As far as questioning the presidents judgement, there is nothing wrong with that, obviously. What IS wrong is insinuating that he is a puppet of his father or that he is a puppet of the oil interests. This president, unlike Clinton, IS a moral man. I have yet to see him openly act in a self serving interest, unlike Clinton, whos very nature was subversive only unto himself. I agree with Bolverk.

Inaction has gotten us to where we are today. While I do not want war, I do think it is our responsibility to make the world safer for everyone, not just us. Taking action in Iraq will liberate millions of people who are so downtrodden that they can no longer stand for themselves. It will also send a clear message to the rest of the world that we will no longer tollerate totalitarian regimes. Do you honestly think that the people of Iraq want to live under Saddam?

ksmythe
20th December 02, 01:45 PM
So when are you signing up to go fight for GW?



"Gentlemen! No fighting in here! This is the War Room."

ksmythe
20th December 02, 02:06 PM
There are oppressive regimes around the world that are constantly beating their people down yet the US does absolutley nothing. Do you know how the people of Saudi Arabia feel about living under the royal familiy? Most seem them as american puppets. They control the oil and hence are our allies. American involvement in the region isn't based on promoting democracy and freedom for the people of that region but rather securing our econominc interests. Other than Isreal none of our allies in the region are democrat and open societies so don't tell me about freeing the people from Irak's oppresive regime.

Let's look at history of US involvement concerning irak:
We armed Iran under the Shah. The Shah was ousted and we helped arm Iraq in their war against Iran. Then we engaged Irak. American involvement is transparent as best. Sadam was our friend as long as he was in our pocket.

You can go on all day about american idealism but America is no hero on a white horse.



"Gentlemen! No fighting in here! This is the War Room."


Edited by - ksmythe on December 20 2002 13:07:28

miguksaram
20th December 02, 02:06 PM
"Did I miss something on 9/11?"

I agree that 9/11 was due to Clinton's lack of response to the earlier situations where were attacked not only abroad but at home as well (first attempt at the WTC). However, those attacks were not from Saddam but from Al Queda.

Saddam is a small little fish swiming in a pool of oil. That is why we are so up to knock him off. As for bringing up N. Korea it is a moot point, why, because they are backed by China and we wouldn't want to piss them off. We are flexing our muscels at the wrong guy.

Perhaps what we need is a good ol' fashion world domination attack..Perhaps US should just go invading and fuck the UN.

Now that being said, I can't believe we are making such hype over a silly ol' song. Geez people lighten up. Go have a beer and send the bill to Sam.

Oh by the way...I fought for GW's dad during the first go at Saddam. We should have off'd him when we had the chance.


Jeremy M. Talbott
http://www.homestead.com/koreanma/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/jns1994/MSA.html

SamHarber
20th December 02, 02:18 PM
Screw you hippy.... I aint paying for nobodies beer.
2 points... Turkey is so eager to help America because it wants to be included in the EU so as to gain from the agricultural subsidies available (there can't be any other reason for that). Turkey is also an oppressive regime almost as bad as Iraq when it comes to the persecution of the Kurdish population. It is still an imprisonable offence to publicly use the kurdish language.
Second point... The USA is an applaling environmental offender, especially when it comes to SUVs that you all seem so proud of. As they are legally classified as light trucks, they have much less restrictive emissions standards. If you have an SUV, be honest, do you really need it?

miguksaram
20th December 02, 02:19 PM
Sorry...Send the bill to pat for starting this thread. :)

Jeremy M. Talbott
http://www.homestead.com/koreanma/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/jns1994/MSA.html

ksmythe
20th December 02, 02:19 PM
Heh heh.... Viva Ochelon!



"Gentlemen! No fighting in here! This is the War Room."

Bolverk
20th December 02, 02:20 PM
Here's a nice story for ya

http://www.latimes.com/la-na-cia11oct11,0,2360915.story



And some for you also...

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/3/18/74151.shtml

http://www.newsmax.com/showinside.shtml?a=2002/3/17/132130

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/8/16/160324.shtml



Knowing it is not enough, we must apply.
Willing is not enough, we must do.

ksmythe
20th December 02, 02:24 PM
Ha ha! All three of those have been dismissed.



"Gentlemen! No fighting in here! This is the War Room."

miguksaram
20th December 02, 02:24 PM
Yes we do. How else can we trample over those damn minis you all keep trying to pawn off on us. :) America has a history of backing regimes that help our needs at the time. We backed Saddam, we backed Bin Laden, we make our best enemies.

Jeremy M. Talbott
http://www.homestead.com/koreanma/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/jns1994/MSA.html

ksmythe
20th December 02, 02:26 PM
Exciting thread folks. It sure beats reading BK and his buddies discussing their asses.




"Gentlemen! No fighting in here! This is the War Room."


Edited by - ksmythe on December 20 2002 13:27:21

Groganer
20th December 02, 02:29 PM
I guess I'll sign up when I'm asked to. A war machine requires money. I make a lot of money and I, *gasp*, actually PAY taxes in this country. My 50K in taxes a year goes a long way in feeding the war machine. That and I work on technology for weapons. I think I'm serving my country just fine. That being said, I'd be fine with going to war and dying for my country.

Groganer
20th December 02, 02:33 PM
Mig,

We also make the best use of our enemies. The human condition causes us to be evil by our nature. At least we try to balance the evil with good. You all forget that America gives more foreign aid than any other country in the world. WE, you and I, the tax payers of this nation, help out with BILLIONS of dollars in AID each year.

Shit, I just sent the president a letter requesting that he do something about the AIDS problem in Africa. And he will. Why? Because while we're the most powerful, and thus most dominant, nation in the world, we're also the most generous.

So no, we're not a white horse nation by any stretch of the imagination, but we're the best hope that exists on this planet.

Groganer
20th December 02, 02:34 PM
Oh - one other thing. I'd rather not die for my country. That's the other guy's job (the enemy). I'd rather make him die for his.

ksmythe
20th December 02, 02:34 PM
Yeh... yeh... chickin shit! <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>


"Gentlemen! No fighting in here! This is the War Room."

mikus
20th December 02, 02:36 PM
After all, he wiped out 20,000 of his own people with chemical weapons, that qualifies as mass destruction.


With money for weapons from who?

And all that BULLSHIT about "liberating oppressed people" from Saddam is...well.... BULLSHIT. During the Persian Gulf War, there were uprisings in both the north and the south and the US government didn't aid them. Which makes sense, because those people were against both the US government AND the Iraqi government. Don't act like the Iraqi (or Kurdish) people love the US.

Did you know that the Iraqis ordered airstrikes on 6 thousand soldiers who abandoned their units during the Iraq-Iran war? The US saw no problems with it. The US dislikes it when people disobey orders.

I Give BJJs
20th December 02, 02:59 PM
So who wants to hear about my ASS now?!?!?!?!?!?!

miguksaram
20th December 02, 05:32 PM
Groganer,

Love that Patton quote. My CO gave it to us before we shipped out. :) I agree as well that we contribute tons of money to the world. You may notice that a lot of countries curse us until they have financial problems, then we become their best friend.

We are no angels, but we are no demons either. If asked again, I will do what is required. That is just my feeling. This is the best country out there.

Jeremy M. Talbott
http://www.homestead.com/koreanma/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/jns1994/MSA.html

Dochter
20th December 02, 06:07 PM
Groganer,

You might want to ask the president to pull his head out of the christian rights ass (put it in igbjj's) about AIDS in that letter. Recently our dipshit president reenacted a law passed by Regan and supported by Bush sr. that prohibits federal money from getting to most groups working on AIDSand over population in Africa. The law says that if a group even mentions the possibility of an abortion (just that a safe procedure exists) they'll lose all funding for aids treatment or other forms of contraception.

This in one of the areas of the world most in need of contraception and help in this area.




**Oh my god! I don't wanna go to THE STREET mommy! All the mean crazy psycho ninjas pick on me and take my lunch money.**

ksmythe
20th December 02, 06:26 PM
Enjoy or not!

http://www.gwbushart.com/categories/dumbass/gwdummies.jpg

"Gentlemen! No fighting in here! This is the War Room."

Groganer
20th December 02, 06:30 PM
Dochter,

I did JUST that in the letter. I mentioned that I, as a Christian, wanted him to do what was right. I said I didn't want the suffering to continue just because some individuals believe one way and some believe another. I said that Jesus would support them, regardless of their transgressions, etc.

So, I'm on the same page as you on that. While I don't believe abortion is a good thing (I do view it as murder), I'm not going to kill off another group just because they support it. And I even think that we have to come to secular agreement on it in this country (based on US laws) and not a moral judgement based on religion.

ksmythe
20th December 02, 06:35 PM
By the way, where the hell is patfromlogan in all this?!?


"Gentlemen! No fighting in here! This is the War Room."

elipson
20th December 02, 07:24 PM
Thought it might interest you all that all the foreign aid payments that go to africa, doesn't equal the debt payments coming out of africa.


Bush is just a warmonger (and a moron as well). He's looking for any excuse to attack iraq. The fact that he's trying to hide it behind some trumped up weapons bull, or that Hussien has major connections to Al-Queda is just insulting to our intelligence. They recently declared iraq had committed a "material breach" of the weapons documents iraq handed over, but they were gonna say that no matter what info iraq provided!!! It's totally loose-loose for Iraq, and any fool should be able to see that bush is just trying to provide an excuse to invade Iraq.

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
-Ghandi

patfromlogan
20th December 02, 07:35 PM
Well this won't be as fun as the start of the thread, but here goes, far to the left, polically a pacifist, follower of bushido(avoid it if you can, hurt rather than maim, maim rather than kill, for all life is precious and none can be replaced), follower of Oyama (the purpose of Kyokushin is self improvement and world peace-well, ok, kicking ass is in there somewhere,too), antiracist, environmentalism is the only ism that matters, and so forth.

Got to get back to work, but you who think that Bush is a honest (don't make me throw-up)man should use a multi engine search like "dogpile" and use words like cocaine, crime, Harken Industries, Sandinistas, CIA, I mean learn what's going on - Herbert Walker Bush's company shut down in 1942 for dealing with the NAZIs. Daddy slimeball, running cia agent rodrigues, using an airfield in Honduras flighing coke out, planes landing in Mena AR., and guess who was gov? Nicaraguans shot down one plane and Hassenfus (sp?) cia pilot blabs, US congress investigates coke/contra connection and guess what almost unknown oil exec rep from Wyoming stone walled the House investigation-Dick "Halliburton" the current 2nd in line, etc etc etc - we are being run like pawns by BIG crooks-read the Failure of American Democracy by Grieder and get back to me. Read the
Family that Preys Together etc..

In 1961 we lived in Vietman, and my father told Gen. Maxwell Taylor, Mac's flunky, that we were losing the war and he was fired from his job as head of navy mag. Sort of stimulated my desire to learn what goes on. I learned.




A lot of people spend a lot of time arguing about what style is better. This is a complete waste of time. Oyama

I Give BJJs
20th December 02, 09:51 PM
My Ass is Sore and Bleeding!!!!!!! ask BallonKnot for the link to my pic

elipson
20th December 02, 11:44 PM
And he will. Why? Because while we're the most powerful, and thus most dominant, nation in the world, we're also the most generous.

So no, we're not a white horse nation by any stretch of the imagination, but we're the best hope that exists on this planet.


Most generous, ya right. Especially when it comes to weapons. The U.S. makes 30 BILLION dollars a year on foreign arms sales; thats more then the next three competitors PUT TOGETHER!!!

Oh ya, you're plenty generous, as long as it doesn't effect the economy or the next election.

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
-Ghandi

Groganer
21st December 02, 01:30 AM
Epsilon,

That's more than the GDP of Canada....

At any rate, I'm sorry you guys feel like we treat you as our bitch. Perhaps if you didn't act like it, we wouldn't treat you that way. The sheer fact that you have such a paultry and crappy military is reason alone for all Americans to laugh at you. You sit up there knowing that your white knight neighbor (the USA, not Russia) will swoop in and save you if anything happens to you. This allows you to have socialized medicine (which sucks, btw) because you don't spend DICK on the military. Have your helicopters killed anyone lately?

I Give BJJs
21st December 02, 01:43 AM
Ooooooh, right there baby......right up my ass...........yeeeeeeesssssssssss!!!!!!!

SamHarber
21st December 02, 06:16 AM
Despite Canada having a miniscule armed force, they still do more in the way of UN peacekeeping duties than the USA.
Also, the USA is still in debt to the UN, In 1998 is owed about 1 billion dollars in arrears, and of last year they still owed 298 million dollars.
In theory, the USA could be removed from the UN for its debts (non payment for 2 years). Sadly, its not politically expediant to remove teh USA.

elipson
22nd December 02, 01:10 AM
gee groganer, that GDP comment really hurt, seeing how the US has ten times the pop. as canada. And at least Canada doesn't make its money by selling weapons that kill people and contribute to the growing number of wars in the world. But it's not like wars hurt anybody, so long as rich republicans don't lose any money over it?
Do you really want to get into a can/us debate here?
well I do!
We basically have all the benefits of you guys, but we aren't hated by everyone on the planet!! You ever wonder why so many people from so many countries hate the US? it's cause you strut around thinking that just because you have the most expensive military that you should run the world.
You think we need you guys to swoop in a rescue us? Ya right. Without you guys, we'd get help from all of nato and most of the UN, that's one advantage of ACTUALLY BEING LIKED!!!

Have our helicopters killed anyone lately? That's a very humane statement of you. It's not like killing is a bad thing or anything.

Dude, you must be totally rich.
"This allows you to have socialized medicine (which sucks, btw) because you don't spend DICK on the military."
You wouldn't be saying this if you couldn't afford private healthcare. Socialized health care may not be great, but at least we don't leave our people SOL if they can't afford medical services. It's not like other people matter now is it???

And I'm sure the pres. is gonna listen to your letter about help in africa. It's not as if thousands of people have been telling presidents that for years!!!! I'm sure he's totally unaware of the growing problem down there, and your letter is just the thing that will bring him into the light! Maybe you should suggest he stop selling weapons to people down there? Oh no wait! That would slow down the economy wouldn't it? Better let them keep killing each other.

And just for the record, I have a prob with the American Governement, not the american people. The american people are pretty much like everyone else, some good, some bad.

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
-Ghandi

I Give BJJs
22nd December 02, 11:35 AM
American Assholes are the Yummiest!!!!!!!!!!

The Wastrel
23rd December 02, 03:24 AM
Does anyone else get the feeling that the best arguments on either side are never used?

**The most miraculous power that can verifiably be attributed to "chi" is its ability to be all things to virtually all people, depending on what version of the superstition they are attempting to defend at any given moment.**

elipson
24th December 02, 06:26 PM
how come you stopped replying groganer?

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"
-Ghandi