PDA

View Full Version : Israeli military opens fire on crowds in Gaza



PeedeeShaolin
19th May 04, 02:34 PM
At a protest today in Rafah the Israeli military opened fire on the crowd wouding at least 60 and killing at least 10 although the numbers are not yet fully known.

Tanks and a helicopter opened fire as "warning shots".

Vice President Bush immediately went red in the face and President Cheney took time away from counting all that Haliburton green to whip up a statement from the corporate writers in the White House that demanded restraint from everyone involved and demanding clarification from Israel.

This story is front page for the entire world except in the U.S. Things have gotten so bad that Arafat wants international observers in his country to protect his people.


Reuters news agency quoted the UN special human rights envoy in the Palestinian territories, John Dugard, as saying that the strikes were "war crimes" and amounted to collective punishment violating humanitarian and international human rights law.

The demonstration was in response to the Israeli army's operations in Rafah, which have been the most violent in Gaza since Israeli occupied it. So far there are over 100 Palestinains wounded and at least 34 dead. No Israeli casualties have been reported.

If you have some understanding of how the Nazis operated in the Warsaw ghetto this should give you shivers:

The bloodshed came shortly after reports that thousands of Tel Sultan residents had complied with an Israeli demand that they surrender.

Twenty-four Palestinians have already died in Tel Sultan during an operation dubbed "Operation Rainbow" by the Israeli army.

Soldiers had called on loudspeakers for all males aged 16 or over to come out carrying white flags or risk the demolition of their family homes.

Israeli commanders later told journalists they only wanted militants to come out.

Israeli actions have raised an international outcry after army chief Lt Gen Moshe Yaalon said troops would flatten rows of homes in Rafah camp to widen a patrol road along the border with Egypt.

Palestinian militants are active in the area, and seven Israeli soldiers were killed nearby in ambushes last week.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40171000/jpg/_40171667_gazafatherap203body.jpg

This is even more serious than Iraq because it could potentially drag other countries into the fight. You can read all about it here (http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40171000/jpg/_40171667_gazafatherap203body.jpg) as well as fibd links to the more recent happenings that the lousy American press is ignoring.

WingChun Lawyer
19th May 04, 03:17 PM
I read something about it. It´s about time those israeli helicopter pilots went on strike again.

Ronin
19th May 04, 03:21 PM
I can't believe I am saying this:
Old News.

PeedeeShaolin
20th May 04, 02:29 PM
I can't believe you're saying that either, considering it was posted on the 19th and it happened on the 19th. Blownin.

nasty_totoro
20th May 04, 04:07 PM
its happening because the israelis know that the US is in no position to criticize them ...

Deluxe247
20th May 04, 06:50 PM
Owned

LOVED2BLOVED
21st May 04, 02:58 PM
trouble in the middle east?

http://www.runicsoft.com/images/forumpics/interesting.jpg

patfromlogan
23rd May 04, 12:58 PM
yeah, yawn... Using my and your taxes to murder children and insure the fulfilling of the Mormon, Hopi and Biblical prophecies of the coming Armageddon? Who cares, life sucks anyway, right? Anyway, it can't happen here, It can’t happen here. I’m telling you, my dear. That it can’t happen here, It can’t happen here, I’m telling you, my dear that it can’t happen here. Because I been checkin’ it out, baby, I checked it out a couple a times, hmmmmmmmm

Mr_Mantis
23rd May 04, 06:24 PM
I think that we should treat the Palestinians like they treated us on September 11, 2001.

PARTY DOWN!!!!!

http://www.gamla.org.il/english/feature/cel.htm
http://www.yesha.org.il/islam.htm

patfromlogan
23rd May 04, 11:16 PM
That will show them. Let's sink to the lowest level possible.

http://www.aljazeerah.info/News%20photo%20negatives/2003%20news%20phot%20negatives/September/mjnbs25.jpg
So who wants to shoot the children? Hurry and sign up.

Here's a dead one, happy now?
http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/am/uploads/khamyunis070503a.jpg

Jolly_Roger
23rd May 04, 11:18 PM
Careful, Pat.
If someone opened a tour of duty saying "Shoot islamiazoid children" I'm sure that some people would join...

patfromlogan
23rd May 04, 11:33 PM
I live about twenty miles from the site of the Bear River Massacre. Human depravity doesn't surprise me. The attitude that celebrates violence disgusts me. I can't say much to the idiot's dancing in the streets in joy after a suicide bomber killed 18 Israelis:
http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/pal-murder-party-031404.jpg

"Like Sand Creek, the militia broke the arms and legs of women so they couldn't fight back while they were raped. Bayonets cut open the wombs of pregnant women and pulled out the fetus. Some of the militia wrapped the fetus around their hats as war trophies. After the women were raped the militia men split their skulls open with hatchets. Babies and Toddlers were grabbed and their heads bashed against trees. Chief Bear Hunter was beaten, kicked, stripped and whipped bloody. When he did not cry out in pain or anguish to his tormenters, a soldier heated his bayonet and ran it through Bear Hunter's ears..."

TheGodDamnMan
23rd May 04, 11:43 PM
Religion separates people. Does God want people to be separated? Can God be boiled down, explained, compartmentalized by religion?

Jolly_Roger
23rd May 04, 11:44 PM
There are heathens that say god is buddhist, brother.
Can you belive it?

TheGodDamnMan
23rd May 04, 11:49 PM
Originally posted by patfromlogan
I live about twenty miles from the site of the Bear River Massacre. Human depravity doesn't surprise me. The attitude that celebrates violence disgusts me. I can't say much to the idiot's dancing in the streets in joy after a suicide bomber killed 18 Israelis:
http://homepage.mac.com/cfj/.Pictures/pal-murder-party-031404.jpg

"Like Sand Creek, the militia broke the arms and legs of women so they couldn't fight back while they were raped. Bayonets cut open the wombs of pregnant women and pulled out the fetus. Some of the militia wrapped the fetus around their hats as war trophies. After the women were raped the militia men split their skulls open with hatchets. Babies and Toddlers were grabbed and their heads bashed against trees. Chief Bear Hunter was beaten, kicked, stripped and whipped bloody. When he did not cry out in pain or anguish to his tormenters, a soldier heated his bayonet and ran it through Bear Hunter's ears..."


That just goes to show that one should not mess with PETA. If the didn't advertise the fact that he hunted bears this tragedy may have been overted.

IzzyDaHedgehog
24th May 04, 08:04 PM
I guess I kinda understand why the Israelis do this stuff. Imagine: you're in like the one country in the world where being a Jew doesn't make you part of a generally disliked ethnic minority. You're surrounded by Muslim countries who dislike you. There is a powerful Muslim presence in your country that routinely commits terrorist acts against you. Wouldn't you be just a weeeee bit jumpy? I know I would.

Secondly, the only reason the Israelis get the blame for this is because they're the bigger, more powerful force. This was the same problem faced by the Spanish in Cuba and the Americans in Vietnam. People seem to think that the smaller, opressed force is justified in fighting dirty just because they're smaller. It's kind of a no-win situation for the bigger group, because the troops' morale gets killed by guerilla tactics so they can't operate as effectively, but as soon as they try to fight dirty too and try to win a little, they are condemned for war crimes. The difference here is, Vietnam was a stupid war fought to make France happy because they were leaning socialist. This is the Israelis trying to protect their home and their people.



Am I advocating this kind of stuff? No. Do I wish that we could cut all this out and just have everyone live happily ever after? Yes. But this is a viewpoint I wish most people would consider more.

Forgive the ranting.

patfromlogan
24th May 04, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by IzzyDaHedgehog
Secondly, the only reason the Israelis get the blame for this is because they're the bigger, more powerful force.


No, it's because Sharon is doing his best to imitate the Nazis.


Originally posted by TheGodDamnMan
That just goes to show that one should not mess with PETA. If the didn't advertise the fact that he hunted bears this tragedy may have been overted.

That's funny? No, you are just being a frat boy. A Republican frat boy.

IzzyDaHedgehog
24th May 04, 09:59 PM
The Nazis tried to exterminate a race of people. Sharon is trying to defend his territory. I fail to see a cornnection between the two.

Study your damn history.

Jolly_Roger
24th May 04, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by IzzyDaHedgehog
The Nazis tried to exterminate a race of people. Sharon is trying to defend his territory. I fail to see a cornnection between the two.

Study your damn history.

No, Sharon it's trying to EXPAND his territory, at the cost of another ethnicity. That's what the Nazis set to do.

IzzyDaHedgehog
24th May 04, 11:28 PM
Hitler originally invaded Czechoslovakia (spelling?), claiming that they were taking back territory they lost in WWI, and that they needed the room (I think the term they used was "lebensraum" but I'm not too sure). Afterwards was Poland and the rest of Western Europe, and a lot of Russia, as well as parts of Africa. These countries had Jewish populations, but mostly the "enemy" was either slavic, germanic, or perhaps african. The Jews posed no real threat to his expansion, he discriminated against them because of personal bias and also the fact that he could align the German people behind hating them. They posed no immediate physical threat to the German population.

The Muslim population in Israel, however, is extremely violent. Sharon may not be right, but he is sure as hell more justified in his actions than Adolf ever was.

EDIT: Wait, the entire population isn't violent, although elements of it are.

The one thing that gets me mad is when people start comparing people to the Nazis. That can pretty much be declared the standard of evil for the 20th century, and a lot of people are far too quick to make comparisons to them.

patfromlogan
24th May 04, 11:40 PM
Originally posted by IzzyDaHedgehog
The Nazis tried to exterminate a race of people. Sharon is trying to defend his territory. I fail to see a cornnection between the two.

Study your damn history.

Darn history to you buddy.

Sharon is doing his best to flatter the Nazis by imitating them at every chance. The man is dangerous, disgusting, and a short sighted megalomaniac.

It's true that the Palestinians blew it by not accepting that agreement years ago, but that doesn't excuse an asshole like Sharon. He IS a genocidal authoritarian fucker. Hey Izzy, how about Facility 1391, or as they call it, Israel's Guantanamo, what do you think about it?

IzzyDaHedgehog
24th May 04, 11:54 PM
I'll wait until one of the following happens to make that comparison:

1) You can give me evidence that the Jews posed anywhere close to as big a threat to the Germans as the Palestineans pose to the Israelis right now

2) They start incinerating people en masse.


Call Sharon a war criminal, I'm all for it. I think he's terrible. But the comparisons to Hitler have got to stop. I'll even start you off with some more appropriate comparisons:

Milosovich
Stalin
Mao

I could name more, but I have final papers due in three classes tomorrow and I'm about done on this thread for tonight. I really did enjoy the debate though, I normally don't get this kind of opportunity. :-)

patfromlogan
25th May 04, 12:06 AM
Actually I think I agree with you for the most part. We both think Sharon is terrible. And he isn't Hitler (He just has Hitler envy!)

Xango
25th May 04, 12:10 AM
Hey patfromlogan:

Why do they call Sharon the "bulldozer"?

WingChun Lawyer
25th May 04, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by patfromlogan
Actually I think I agree with you for the most part. We both think Sharon is terrible. And he isn't Hitler (He just has Hitler envy!)

IMHO, he should not be compared to Hitler in the sense that he has no particular interest in exterminating the palestinians. They are just in his way: he is fighting for territory, not palestinian lives.

Of course, he has no regard for palestinian lives, either. The moment CNN and the rest of the press blink, Mr. Sharon will happily incinerate another palestinian refugee camp and install another kibutz "to keep the order".

patfromlogan
25th May 04, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by Xango
Hey patfromlogan:

Why do they call Sharon the "bulldozer"?

From http://www.angelfire.com/pro/canthos/bulldozer.html
They call him “The Bulldozer.”

The nickname refers not only to his physical stature but also to his personality and his favorite tool.


Outside of Israel, most people know “The Bulldozer” as Ariel Sharon, the current Prime Minister of Israel.

He has always loved the slightest provocation, even gone out of his way to invite it; in fact as a young officer he was disciplined several times for unnecessarily provoking the Egyptians by putting his men in danger. Around the time of Israel proclaimed itself a state, he was the leader of Unit 101, a special forces company.

His men were staked out on a kibbutz near the border, with orders not to move until provoked. According to the story, he came running in one afternoon, saying: "Great news! They just killed the guard!" (On the theme of provocation to justify the use of force, keep in mind that it was Sharon's "visit" to one of the most sacred sites of Islam, together with a "guard" of over 1,000 Israeli soliders and police, that started the current intifada and, not incidently, got Sharon elected Prime Minister. Quite a comeback for someone who was accused by his own government of being a war criminal. He was found by an Israeli inquiry to be directly implicit in the massacres at Sabra and Shatila.)

In 1948, as a young officer in the IDF, as retaliation for a single murder, he led his heavily armed men into the nearby Jordanian (West Bank) village of Qibya– picked only because it was the closest. Most of the men of the village fled – they were largely unarmed, except for knives, and they feared that they would be rounded up and shot en masse, as had happened at several nearby Arab villages such as Tantura and Deir Yassin. That left mostly women and children cowering in back rooms and cellars.

As IDF snipers stood guard and prevented any escapes, members of Unit 101 proceeded methodically through the village and systematically dynamited 46 houses. It took four hours to destroy every home, with the people still inside. Palestinians claim that 73 women and children died, buried in the rubble. The official Israeli count is 69 dead and this is the number Sharon cites in his autobiography "Warrior."

In his famous address to the Knesset years later he outlined the same simple policy he has adhered to for 50 years: “They can ignore guns and bombs, but when we destroy their homes, we will get their attention. In Arabic, the worst curse you can call upon someone is to say ‘may your home be destroyed.’”

Balloonknot
25th May 04, 10:20 AM
It's about time we get Israel off our backs. I use to think it was a good idea but not anymore. The times they are a changing (to quote Bob Dylan) and it's time we get the fukk out of dodge!!!

Xango
25th May 04, 12:58 PM
pat: in other words, you have no idea.

I, too, can type 'Bulldozer "Ariel Sharon"' into Google...

Speaking of quoting Bob Dylan: Ever read or heard a Dylan song called "Neighborhood Bully", Balloonknot?

Jenfucius
25th May 04, 01:13 PM
obviously you liberal assholes have never had to deal with palestinians. it's their own damn fault for rejecting the quite generous peace offer from the israelis a few years ago. they could have had their own viable state by now, but instead they're getting what they asked for, which more war.

patfromlogan
25th May 04, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by Xango
pat: in other words, you have no idea.

I, too, can type 'Bulldozer "Ariel Sharon"' into Google...

Speaking of quoting Bob Dylan: Ever read or heard a Dylan song called "Neighborhood Bully", Balloonknot?

was it wrong?

Deluxe247
25th May 04, 05:29 PM
ahh nm

Freddy
25th May 04, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Jenfucius
obviously you liberal assholes have never had to deal with palestinians. it's their own damn fault for rejecting the quite generous peace offer from the israelis a few years ago. they could have had their own viable state by now, but instead they're getting what they asked for, which more war.

You wannabe Jap!:D

Xango
25th May 04, 05:55 PM
I'll give you a free hint, pat: it's from a specific incident in his career.

So, yes, your random internet link was wrong. Lemme guess: you've never been to Israel, don't know the biographies of the key players, and are really, *really* spotty on the pre-1989 history of the region.

You embody why I so quickly weary of these discussions.

Kungfoolss
26th May 04, 01:21 AM
Israel rockets and blows up a dozen or so Palestinians? Way I look at it, that's a few dozen less suicide bombers Israeli's will have to ever worry about. Got to love the Israeli's.

http://www.rnw.nl/informarn/assets/images/jihad.jpg

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/images/baby.jpg
Photo of Palestinian child dressed as a suicide bomber

kaliblokeuk
26th May 04, 07:09 AM
I am no historian, however from my simple view point:

Wasn't the region of land now called Israel once called Palestine?

Doesnt that then make Israel an occupying force (I know this happened a long time ago, but I am sure that the Palestines can still remember it)?

Would you be happy with 1/10th of what you orginally had? If not how would you feel about the rest of the world saying things like: "it's their own damn fault for rejecting the quite generous peace offer from the Israelis a few years ago."

WingChun Lawyer
26th May 04, 07:42 AM
Originally posted by kaliblokeuk
Would you be happy with 1/10th of what you orginally had? If not how would you feel about the rest of the world saying things like: "it's their own damn fault for rejecting the quite generous peace offer from the Israelis a few years ago."

Yes, I believe you are right. I am not too good on history of that region, but I believe Palestine was a british protectorate(sp), and yes, it was inhabited by the palestines.

And the sort of question you just asked is usually answered by hardcore israelis with answers filled with emotional content, like "the jews needed a country of their own", or "this land belonged to the jews about 6,000 years ago". This, of course, raises an interesting point: what do the palestinians had to do with that?

Anyway, that is history. Israel exists right now, and, as I see it, destroying it would cause more human suffering than keeping it and creating a viable palestinian state.

Oh, and Kungfools. The sort of murderous patriotic madness you just displayed makes you very similar to those terrorists. Actually it makes you worse, since they do have an excuse to behave irrationally towards other human beings.

Ronin
26th May 04, 07:45 AM
This situation will NEVER be resolved.

Escrima9
26th May 04, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by ronin69
This situation will NEVER be resolved.

Sad but more than likely true (at least in our life times)

patfromlogan
26th May 04, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by ronin69
This situation will NEVER be resolved.

Oh no, it will be resolved. That is the scary part. I just hope I get to play with my (eventually arriving) grandkids someday.


Originally posted by Xango
I'll give you a free hint, pat: it's from a specific incident in his career.

So, yes, your random internet link was wrong. Lemme guess: you've never been to Israel, don't know the biographies of the key players, and are really, *really* spotty on the pre-1989 history of the region.

You embody why I so quickly weary of these discussions.

Sharon Rotzeach" ("Sharon the Murderer") read the placards of protesters who regularly gathered outside his Jerusalem home...

Arrogant fucks make me tired. Gee I'm so sorry that I let you down. Please don't condescend to actually tell me or anyone on this forum the answer. It's so much more fun to be held in ridicule by a conceited fuckface like you.

Why don't you take the Golan Hieghts and shove them up your ass. You sound like a big enough of an asshole that they'd fit fine.

Here dope, study this, it makes it all clear, and get back to me. NOT!

http://www.ibiblio.org/sullivan/maps/Golan1967-map.GIF

kaliblokeuk
26th May 04, 11:08 AM
"Israel exists right now, and, as I see it, destroying it would cause more human suffering than keeping it and creating a viable Palestinian state." you are correct of course.

However, where should the Palestine's go? From what I understand what they were 'offered' by Israel amounts to a bit of a ghetto and not a lot else. I know that if my family were run out of their home and more or less imprisoned in a ghetto by some random race of people I would be willing to fight and die for my freedom, and not some candy coated media friendly version of freedom that is designed to be rejected in order to paint me evil!

In no way is that condoning blowing up a bus load of civvies (that's just shit) but I keep seeing comments that make out the Palestine's are little more than blood thirsty animals - I think too many posters are watching fox news too often!!

WingChun Lawyer
26th May 04, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by kaliblokeuk
In no way is that condoning blowing up a bus load of civvies (that's just shit) but I keep seeing comments that make out the Palestine's are little more than blood thirsty animals - I think too many posters are watching fox news too often!!

Point. Also, remember that many people are children of survivors of the Holocaust, and/or are related to victims in some way, and they tend to confuse their feelings regarding the Holocaust with a sympathy towards Israel ("Israel is the only hope for the jewish people" etc).

kaliblokeuk
26th May 04, 11:33 AM
I had not considered that but yes, I can see that perspective. It is such a fuking mess over there that I cannot really see a solution that works out. If Isreal 'wins' then it will mean a huge human tragedy, and the same visa versa.

Whos great idea was it to give Palistine to the Jews anyway?

WingChun Lawyer
26th May 04, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by kaliblokeuk
I had not considered that but yes, I can see that perspective. It is such a fuking mess over there that I cannot really see a solution that works out. If Isreal 'wins' then it will mean a huge human tragedy, and the same visa versa.

Whos great idea was it to give Palistine to the Jews anyway?

The UN, if I am not mistaken. And the british were more thanhappy to get rid of that troublesome protectorate. If someone here knows more details about how that whole mess started, please share with us.

Ronin
26th May 04, 12:21 PM
Unless Israel is forced to conceed ( never gonna happen), why should it give up what belongs to it ??

WingChun Lawyer
26th May 04, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by ronin69
Unless Israel is forced to conceed ( never gonna happen), why should it give up what belongs to it ??

1) What belongs to it (ALL of it) was given at the expense of the palestinians, or taken directly from the palestinians by force of arms.

2) Using this same rationale, the palestinians should fight to the last man, woman and child for ALL the lands which were taken, instead of negotiating. This is irrational.

Ronin
26th May 04, 12:47 PM
Irrational, yes, but if tomorrow the natives of the amazons wanted the North of Brasil...
Well...
Thing is, the current generation in power in Israel does NOT see it any other way.
Maybe the future ones will, maybe.

Xango
26th May 04, 01:07 PM
Ah, pat. You have a map; I have seen destroyed Syrian artillery bunkers, and chunks of rock basalt riddled with holes from small-arms fire. Stood, and looked down into a long broad valley full of tempting targets. Seen the holes Syrian artillery chewed in the mountain walls around remote northern Kibbutzim, still clearly delineated decades later. I know people who fought to take the Golan. Can you make any of these claims?

That is the difference between us, and what makes discussion of this subject between us impossible. You simply don't know what you're talking about, and you don't have the respect for my knowledge that would allow you to realize that. Someone here is certainly being arrogant, and I'm guessin it's the guy who is speculating about the gauge of my asshole.

As for everyone else who has posted to this thread: Don't bother. Really, don't. Educate yourself if you're interested, but accept that it's a full-time job with no clear cut answers revealed thereby. Meanwhile, take a heaping spoonful of STFU, because I've see no evidence that any of you, ronin possibly excepted, know what you're on about.

WingChun Lawyer
26th May 04, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by ronin69
Irrational, yes, but if tomorrow the natives of the amazons wanted the North of Brasil...
Well...
Thing is, the current generation in power in Israel does NOT see it any other way.
Maybe the future ones will, maybe.

Well, I see some hope. If even Sharon is interested in making concessions, maybe there will be peace, and this is rational indeed. A war of attrition like we see at this moment takes its toll on israeli economy and foreign relations, if nothing else.

Oh, and Xango. We may not have a clue, but at least we have the guts to share our thoughts and conclusions, something which you didn´t do up to this moment. Kindly get off your high horse and share your knowledge with us.

Xango
26th May 04, 01:36 PM
I have discussed this subject on the Internet many times, WCL.

It has *never* gone well for me, due to the personal nature of my connection to people living in Israel (Israelis, even), the impersonal nature of most peoples op-ed, newspaper based connection to said state, and the correspondingly different stakes. It's simply not the same discussion for me as for most people, so, no. I should never have bothered to start posting. One would think I'd know better by now.

I will point out this: Israel is a democracy, and while it is true that the greater portion of the Palestinians have no say, 20% of Israeli voters are Palestinian. My suggestion would be to butt out and let them handle their own affairs.

Xango
26th May 04, 01:40 PM
Oh, and you might be curious how I feel about Sharon.

I feel that he should retire, and allow Binyamin Netanyahu to take power.

Ronin
26th May 04, 01:44 PM
While Sharon, at times, seems to want peace, as have many others before him, the pattern of saying on ething and doing another is all to vivid.
Now, the very chance, the very idea that Israel will give up what is theirs by possesion, that they would put themselvs in what , they see, as a position of enormous weakness, that the Israeli parliment will commit to what many would call "suicide", is not a realistic one.
Israel will only give up anything that is in her best intrest, and they will only give up as much as the are willing to lose.
No more, no less.
The Palestinians want was is theirs, no more, no less.
There is an impasse that, without outside help, will never be resolved.
The last time they even came close, Rabin ( is that the one?) was assasinated.
I just don't have any real hope for this to resolve itself... I just don't see HOW or even WHY.

patfromlogan
26th May 04, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Xango
Oh, and you might be curious how I feel about Sharon.

I feel that he should retire, and allow Binyamin Netanyahu to take power.

Well we agree on something, though putting him in prison for the refugee murders would be ok with me. Loosing his job didn't keep him down for long, did it?

The map was a joke. You know, to be funny, obviously it didn't mean squat.

So all knowing warrior, why IS he called the bulldozer?

p.s. I know Israel is a democracy, but then again so is the US.

WingChun Lawyer
26th May 04, 02:40 PM
Heh, technically Brazil is a democracy. Which means that roughly every 4 years we are bombarded with a shitload of lies and nonsense, geared mostly towards convincing the miserable that THIS TIME things will improve.

Xango
26th May 04, 05:05 PM
He is called the Bulldozer for his actions in destroying the Jewish colonies in the Sinai, during the peace treaty in which Israel exchanged 80% of the area she ruled over (including oil-bearing regions) for peace with Egypt. Egypt didn't want Gaza; hence, many of the modern problems.

kaliblokeuk
27th May 04, 06:35 AM
Xango - no offense intended in my posts, you are correct - I do not have a clue about the problems in Isreal / Palistine other than what I triangulate from the various propaganda sources that masqurade as news.

However you cut it though I find it massivly offensive when people make off handed remarks about an entire race of people being evil - for every sad story one side has there is an equally tear jerking story being told on the other side of the fence.

Seriously, what do you think the solution should be? Genocide? relocation? I would love to hear from someone who has actually seen this from first hand and isnt making guesses (as I am).

changsan feng
27th May 04, 07:54 AM
what do you guys think is the PRACTICAL solotion so that this doesnt happen agian that the palistinians must take?

patfromlogan
27th May 04, 08:43 AM
Xango, what do you think would help the situation?

Well I'll throw in my $.02. Arafat is now holding back the maturation of Palestinian politics, being under house arrest. It's keeping it in limbo, and I think it would improve the situation by deporting him, pobably to Tunisia. I think Sharon's idea is to keep the Palestinian leadership in chaos, and to try to impede actual effective organizations or leadership. I think Abbas is weak and his leadership is divisive - though to call anything in Palestinian politics divisive is an odd way to put it.

Atrocities is what we will keep getting. I was reading about a Jewish villiage that had lived in peace with their close neighbors, a Palestinian villiage for many years. Then some terrorists couldn't stand this so they snuck in and killed Jewish children. Yippee.

and on the other hand, Jews keep killing Palestinian children too. http://www.phrmg.org/PHRMG%20Documents/Child%20Martyrs/Tables/list_of_children_killed_english_0-15.htm
Sep.01
58 Mohammed Samir Abu-Libdeh 13 Rafah 08.09.2001 Killed by the Israeli army
59 Khaled Arafat al-Batsh 3 Hebron 08.09.2001 As a result of Israeli shelling
60 Balqees Fathi Al'qarda 12 Arabeh- Jenin 12.09.2001 She is the sister of Sufian Al'ardah- killed during the attack on the house.
61 Mo'aweya Ali Alnahal 14 Rafah- Gaza 27/9/2001 During the Israeli's shelling and incursion- hit with bullet in the chest.
62 Mohamed Fathi Yousef Abu-zweed Altarayera 10 Bani N'eem- Hebron 28/9/2001 He was shot with life ammunition in the abdomem which caused his death.
63 Mohamed Khames Alswaf 14 Gaza 29/9/2001 He was shot in the chest at Karni Crossing.

garbanzo
27th May 04, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by Xango
My suggestion would be to butt out and let them handle their own affairs.

Finally, Xangu has said something behind which I can rally.

Let us, the U.S. of A., butt out.

Let us stop giving diplomatic cover to Israeli.

Let us stop giving unconditional financial and military assistance to Israel.

Let us, in short, cease to be a party in a conflict that does not concern us. After all, their problems are "their own affairs".

patfromlogan
28th May 04, 10:25 AM
With out the US, just how long would Israel last?

garbanzo
28th May 04, 10:30 AM
That's one of the affairs that they will have to handle.

Xango
28th May 04, 12:20 PM
Take it up with your congresscritter, garbanzo. Israel doesn't need America's money, although she welcomes it. As for diplomatic cover, that was a joke, right? The US is protecting Israel from what, the UN Expeditionary Force? Puh-lease.

Also, Israeli military technology is regularly shared with the US army, including basically every UAV the US uses. Severing defense ties with Israel would probably turn out more expensive than the current arrangement.

Up to America, ultimately, and the fact is, support for the US-Israel relationship status quo is fairly high, and I suspect y'all *greatly* overestimate the amount of support America offers Israel. Considering I've talked to a number of people who thought that American troops were actually serving in Israel....

So, to answer pat from logan: Israel is going to last just fine, regardless. So sorry to disappoint you, you useless git.

Ronin
28th May 04, 12:24 PM
Israel doesn't NEED US money ????
Since when ??
And I think all those UN veto's the US puts on the UN resolutions against Israel can be considered support.
Not to mention the military technology the US "gives" Israel.

garbanzo
28th May 04, 12:42 PM
The gist of Xango' argument is that the U.S. needs Israel more than Israel needs the U.S.

That's a good one.

Xango
28th May 04, 01:17 PM
Um, no. My argument was that the relationship is a mutual one, and not necessary for the security of either state.

America has Apaches and F16s, and money, all of which are nice things to have. Israel has lasers, UAVs, and significant counterterrorism experience, all of which are also nice things to have.

Mutual welfare and benefit, you might call it.

According to this:

Economic Profile: Israel (http://www.nationmaster.com/country/is/Economy)

Aid makes up 0.7% of the Israeli GDP.

You think, maybe, Israel could soak a 0.7% reduction in GDP? Just possibly?

Ronin: It's nice of the US to veto security resolutions, but the UN is a ladie's sewing circle club and debating society. It's all symbolic, it means nothing, etc.

So, no, I don't care. I'm glad that the US supports Israel, but I don't think of it as particularly important, and if you, garbanzo, can get your congresscritters to oppose that support, more power to you.

Of course, you're in Brooklyn, right? Good fucking luck with that! Hah!

Ronin
28th May 04, 01:20 PM
Actually, what the U.S. and its voters/senetors/special interest groups decide is up to them, here in Canada, we support Israel also, how much I don't know.
But I think you are REALLY under-valuing the support the U.S. gives Israel.

garbanzo
28th May 04, 01:30 PM
Not only Brooklyn, but America generally is fiercely pro-Israel for reasons that I don't pretend to understand.

What I would like to see in this country is an honest debate about whether or not it is in the interests of the U.S. to continue its present policy toward Israel and the Middle East generally.

Xango
28th May 04, 01:59 PM
Garbanzo, I sincerely believe that, even with all the hating and bickering and divisive bullshit, we are seeing exactly that debate.

I don't think your side is winning, but you have powerful advocates in the media and political spheres. I grew up in a liberal college town, and am a classic SLPC: socially liberal political conservative. A reluctant conservative, but one that sees a suicidal weakness to the post-war agenda that denies the reality of human agression and consequent suffering. I visited Israel in May of 2001, and that shaped my experience of Sept 11th. Imagine that you're going shopping, say in Billyburg, and the road you're on gets closed off so the NYPD bomb squad can detonate a bag of leftover chinese food that got left on the streetside.

You have the greatest information resource ever in the history of the world to date right at your literal fingertips, garbanzo. If you wanted to understand why America supports Israel so fiercely, you could make great strides just by typing obvious combinations of words into Google and reading the sites that are hawkish.

It is easier to think your position is obvious and your opponent's position is crazy. But it's not going to win anyone over.

Sun Tzu say: Know yourself, know your enemy. 100 times fight, 100 times win.

garbanzo
28th May 04, 02:14 PM
Where to begin?

I don't think we are seeing that debate. We see people screaming back and forth about conditions on the ground in Israel and the terrritories but precious little debate about the costs and benefits of U.S. policy from the perspective of the interests of the citizens of the U.S.

I used to be a fairly ardent Zionist. I've looked at this issue from many sides.

I am not uninformed, contrary to the implications of your rather patronizing statement.

When I said "I don't pretend to understand" it was a rhetorical flourish.

I was at ground zero on 9/11 which shaped my experience of 9/11. I firmly believe that the policies of the U.S. toward the Middle East, including Israel, make more attacks likely.

I don't need to imagine life in Israel in the way you describe because the NYPD closed off my block yesterday morning to investigate some vegetable oil in a public trash bin.

The media and the politicians in the U.S. are overwhelmingly pro-Israeli.

Xango
28th May 04, 02:17 PM
I'm not trying to imply a thing about your experience, just providing mine. C'mon, man, you think it didn't cross my mind, given that you're in BROOKLYN that you might have been a little closer to ground zero than, say, me?

Obviously you don't think we're seeing that debate. You're losing.

:D

garbanzo
28th May 04, 02:23 PM
All I am axing for is that Americans consider whether support for Israel is in their own interests.

A case can be made either way, but the question isn't being asked.

We hear about Israelis getting blown up.
We hear about Palestinians getting shot.
We hear a lot of moralistic pronouncements.

But we hear little, if anything, about what is in it for Americans.