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View Full Version : Rumsfeld OK'd sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners



PeedeeShaolin
17th May 04, 02:31 PM
The associated press said today:

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld authorized the expansion of a secret program that encouraged physical coercion and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners to obtain intelligence about the growing insurgency in Iraq, The New Yorker reported Saturday.

Just like a rich-boy chicken hawk to order rough treatment and then "come down hard" on the soldiers who followed orders. Alot of the soldiers are talking about how intelligence officials told the MPs the abuse the prisoners so they would be more cooperative during interrogations.


The intelligence sources told the magazine photos of the sexual abuse were used to intimidate prisoners and detainees into providing information on the insurgency. It was thought that some prisoners would do anything — including spying on their associates — to avoid dissemination of the shameful photos to family and friends.

And you know the soldiers will get hung out to dry and nobody is going to say a word.

Why do you think someone would intentionally violate the Geneva Convention and then take PICTURES of it? Are our soldiers the DUMBEST people on the planet? I doubt it. I think they weren't afraid to get caught because they were following orders. They obviously had no fear of their actions. Why the fukk else would you tape sexual abuse and shiit like that? Just the fact that its our soldiers who DID it! Supposedly the CIA got sick of the whole thing and left:

One intelligence official said the CIA ended its involvement with the program at Abu Ghraib prison by last fall.


"They said, 'No way. We signed up for the core program in Afghanistan — pre-approved for operations against the high-value terrorist targets — and now you want to use it for cabdrivers, brothers-in-law, and people pulled off the streets,'" the source said.

I personally think the CIA is fed up with this whole shitstorm and is blowing some whistles. Many whistles have been blown as of late.

I wonder if the bought and paid for press will talk about this or just find another Lacy Petersen to cry over.

You can read the story from the associated press here:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040517/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_prison_abuse_rumsfeld_17

And you can read the story in The New Yorker orticle here:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact

And the head of the Washington office of the International Committee of the Red Cross has resigned for "personal reasons," amid turmoil created by a secret ICRC report on Iraqi prisoner abuse by U.S. forces.

LIBERATE IRAQ!! YAY FREEDOM!!

Ronin
17th May 04, 02:50 PM
Interesting....

Dochter
17th May 04, 03:08 PM
Much of the chain of command obviously has responsibility. The people doing the deeds are not removed from reponsibility just because of orders.

I seem to recall a big trial involving that argument. I think it started with an "N" and had something to do with illegal orders.

Ronin
17th May 04, 03:12 PM
The excuse of "following orders" does not hold up here, I assume its the same in the States?

CaptShady
17th May 04, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by ronin69
The excuse of "following orders" does not hold up here, I assume its the same in the States?

Yep!

Nihilanthic
18th May 04, 12:37 AM
<soapbox>
Hey Peedee!!! Did you totally miss my thread? We're doing it to our own fucking children. Do you not care or are you just unaware?
http://www.askquestions.org/details.php?id=209 <- check out my little attempt at getting media attention. Check my "sick and fucking disgusting" thread in OT.
</soapbox>

I'm just *slightly* PO'd our own kids get less consideration when they're abused just as bad on a larger scale for the past 20 years, than some grown men in Iraq. Sorry, but our kids > other adults. Call me Jingoistic or selfish or whatever. I don't care. I'm just sick and tired of people getting up in arms about things a world away and turning a blind eye to domestic issues.

I half expect to be told "bla bla that doesn't matter BUSH SUCKS!!!1 IRAQ UNJUST WAR!!1one" Guess what, Bush is supportive of the treatment institutions. PM for info if you read this, PeeDee.

PeedeeShaolin
18th May 04, 08:18 AM
I think you totally miss the point Nil. The SOLDIERS are going to be the ones that get fukked for this, even though they were following orders. Those are the people, unlike Donald "rummy" Rumsfeld, that actually have the balls to go fight for a country they were bullshitted into believing was in danger. To see them take the fall because of the policies of an inept and criminal administration means you think a chicken hawk like Rumsfeld should get to sit in his easy chair and dictate even MORE nonsense while young soldiers are used as scapegoats to take the blame. This has happened more than once during this administrations short reign of conquest.

Those teen camps in the U.S. are a symptom of a much larger problem within our sysytem and much of the western world. They symbolize the idea that humiliation and force are the best ways to handle a situation and it stems from a gross, one-sided power trip. It starts with institutuons like military school and finishes with violations of the Geneva convention and American forces forcing foreign soldiers to suck each others diicks for intimidation purposes.

Any military(ex) here want to comment? Do you think these soldiers should be court martialsed and dragged over the coals by themselves for this?

The U.S. is in a time of war. Every citizen should be concerned about whats going on and be as up to date as possible. Instead you have people that could care less. Its like a TV show to them. War time is the time when the power of our government is at its peak over the common citizen. Our lack of concern and ignorance has reached the point that even when our soldiers are instructed to do things that the U.S. government will not even allow the public to SEE we STILL dont care. You have people going back and forth and "supporting our troops" but then letting them get screwed by the rich boy chicken hawk brass who tells them to voilate human rights and then hides and places the blame on them. NOW the armchair soldiers could care less about what happens to the troops who were doing what they were told.

Take a look back at Vietnam! WOW that war was worth it huh? 50,000 dead Americans and over a million Vietnamese, all to stop communism(which translates to a bunch of yellow people wanting to share rice).


The excuse of "following orders" does not hold up here, I assume its the same in the States?

Isn't it common sense that the person who ordered this and the people responsible for the policies created should at LEAST be punished right along side the people following those orders? If your answer is "no" then Hitler would have waled free because he didnt commit any of the atrocities during WWII, he only ok'd the actions.

Ronin
18th May 04, 09:11 AM
I think there is enough blame to go around.
The buck MUST stop somewhere.
But, lets not forget that, no one is FORCED or OBLIGED to follow an order that violates international law.
That being said, IF they were ordered then ALL that are involved should be exposed.
But, even if they were not and just decide to be jerk-offs, the chain of command was NOT obeyed and somewhere along the line, it has to be asked: "Where does the buck stop?"

WingChun Lawyer
18th May 04, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by ronin69

But, even if they were not and just decide to be jerk-offs, the chain of command was NOT obeyed and somewhere along the line, it has to be asked: "Where does the buck stop?"

Man, as Dochter said...remember Nuremberg. All those who issued the orders should be prosecuted, same as those who obeyed them. IMHO, the only questionable responsibility is that of the officers who were vague about how their orders should be executed, but even them should be prosecuted if they knew what was going on.

patfromlogan
18th May 04, 09:42 AM
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTIGERFORCE

Three Blade (Toledo Ohio) reporters won the Pulitzer Prize - journalism's highest honor - for uncovering the atrocities of an elite U.S. Army fighting unit in the Vietnam War that killed unarmed civilians and children during a seven-month rampage. Rumsfeld, whose office declined to comment on the series, served his first stint as secretary of defense under President Gerald Ford beginning in November, 1975 - the same month the Tiger Force investigation was closed.

Hmmmmmmmm...

Nihilanthic
18th May 04, 11:02 AM
PeeDee, I never said it was good what happened in iraq, nor that we should just ignore it. I'm *GLAD* its getting attention.

I'm just ticked that our own kids aren't getting that kind of coverage. Oh well. Maybe 1.90 a gallon for 87 octane around here might make people realize whats really up. Getting hoards of oil, AND taking it upon themselves to jack up prices. Profits are sky high. The govt's taxing the gas are getting more money. We pay at the pump. Thankfully I just learned to drive manuals, and own two gas-sipping cars (that happen to be fast too :P). So up yours Halliburton!

We're on the same page, just not the same line. I didn't like bush to begin with but now that I know he's actually helped fuck over kids in those camps I actually dislike him. The President of the United freaking States of America could find out whats going on in those places before he could give Mel Sembler a fucking ambassadorship. And yes, rummy IIRC (If I am mistaken correct me) told a request for a probe into the child torture camps "no". It IS part of a greater problem. I'd love to 'cut the head off of the snake' with the 2004 election but knowing the american idiot's long term memory problems if we have an attack just before november Dubya will be in power 4 more years, augh.

Balloonknot
18th May 04, 11:41 AM
Peedee is correct as always!

kaliblokeuk
18th May 04, 03:43 PM
What are the chances of Rumsfeld getting some sort of criminal charges over ordering something like this? nill or fuck all?

Stold3
18th May 04, 04:07 PM
Whats a fast car that's gas sipping?

Don't tell me your hybrid is fast

Meteora
18th May 04, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by patfromlogan
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTIGERFORCE

Three Blade (Toledo Ohio) reporters won the Pulitzer Prize - journalism's highest honor - for uncovering the atrocities of an elite U.S. Army fighting unit in the Vietnam War that killed unarmed civilians and children during a seven-month rampage. Rumsfeld, whose office declined to comment on the series, served his first stint as secretary of defense under President Gerald Ford beginning in November, 1975 - the same month the Tiger Force investigation was closed.

Hmmmmmmmm...


people from ohio can be helpful? WTF?

patfromlogan
19th May 04, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Stold3
Whats a fast car that's gas sipping?

Don't tell me your hybrid is fast

I was driving my Toyota Prius up Spanish Fork Canyon on my way to Moab and came up to eight cars crawling behind a semi. GWB made fun of hybrids and electric cars when speaking to a fat cat audience. So in my disgust for GWB and feeling that there were no cops within forty miles, I floored it on that uphill (double yellow - but I could see way ahead) and passed everyone. Got up to 100 mph and for the 375 mile trip averaged 46+ mpg.

patfromlogan
19th May 04, 09:33 AM
http://www.plastic.com/article.html;sid=04/05/17/02072324

By now, everyone is familiar with the Abu Ghraib prison scandal, and everyone has seen some or all of the grotesque pictures of smiling Americans torturing or sexually abusing Iraqi prisoners. Responsibility for the ensuing debacle has devolved to the four American reservists who will be court-martialed and to their seemingly incomprehensible stupidity in taking pictures of themselves in the act. But real responsibility may truly belong at the top, with Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's purported decision to expand a highly secret operation, code named Copper Green, from the hunt to Al Qaeda to the interrogation of prisoners in Iraq. The alleged Pentagon operation, which stemmed from Rumsfeld's long-standing desire to wrest control of America's clandestine and paramilitary operations from the C.I.A., encouraged physical coercion and sexual humiliation as tactics to generate more intelligence about the growing Iraqi insurgency. The Pentagon has denied all such allegations.



Even the photographs and videos may have served an important purpose in Copper Green. Based on what has become the Bible on Arab psychology to neo-cons and Christian extremists, Raphael Patai's The Arab Mind, it was believed that some prisoners would do anything -- including spying on their associates -- to avoid dissemination of the shameful photos and videos to families and friends. The fear of exposure would help create an army of blackmailed informants, people that could then be inserted back into the population.

In his testimony before Congress, Rumsfeld couldn't say anything about a "special-access program" like Copper Green, but he intentionally gave the impression that the actions of the accused reservists at Abu Ghraib were isolated incidents, even as he acknowledged that other photographs and videos even worse than the initial ones might come out as well -- perhaps from the separate prison for women and children. Apparently, the President was briefed about the brewing scandal last winter, but even now he claims to know nothing about the matter. Rumsfeld pretended to take "full responsibility" for what happened at Abu Ghraib, but never apologized for any wrongdoing or admitted that he had anything to do with directly authorizing the abuses. To date, he has largely succeeded even in insulating his Deputy in charge of Copper Green, Stephen Cambone, from fallout from the scandal.

patfromlogan
19th May 04, 10:10 AM
I understand that the CIA is pissed about Rummy taking their spot. I've hit Stephen Cambone on google and found among other things this article from The Nation. Everything supports the allegations. The question is really "Does the United States obey the Geneva Convention or not?" and "Would firing Rumsfeld help anything?" Personally I find Bushworld's "Mean Girls" — Rummy, Cheney, Wolfie and Doug Feith and now Cambone to be a bunch of conceited butt wipes. They are rich, well educated, and exist in a world where they reinforce their own delusions.


http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040531&s=vest

The Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, or OUSD(I) in Pentagonese, was originally conceived by Rumsfeld as a centralizing measure, a way to give him "one dog to kick" rather than a "whole kennel" of individual civilian and uniformed defense intelligence agencies. In choosing the person responsible for ostensibly bringing unprecedented order and control to the Pentagon's spy shops, the Secretary chose Cambone, a man with no intelligence experience but a favored protégé and loyal partisan who had served on Rumsfeld's ballistic missile threat commission and worked with the neoconservative Project for the New American Century. Previously principal deputy to Under Secretary for Policy Doug Feith (and, in that capacity, liaison between Feith and the ideological intelligence analysis unit that would later morph into the notorious Office of Special Plans), Cambone went out of his way in his confirmation hearings to say that he would closely "consult and coordinate" with Feith to "insure [that] DoD-related intelligence activity supports the goals" of the Pentagon's policy shop.


Two months after Cambone's confirmation, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz described his new portfolio in a detailed internal Pentagon memo. Reflecting the seriousness and specificity of Cambone's mission, an organizational chart appended to the memo shows a generic under secretary with six deputies, including one for warfighting and operations, whose duties include specific liaison with the intelligence elements of each of the armed services, each individual combatant command, and the under secretary for policy. The document itself explicitly states that Cambone's office will, among other things:

provide oversight and policy guidance for all DoD intelligence activities; provide policy oversight of all the intelligence organizations within the DoD, to include ensuring these organizations are manned, trained, equipped and structured to support the missions of the Department; provide assessments of and advice [to] the Secretary and CJCS [Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff] on the adequacy of military intelligence performance; exercise management and oversight of all DoD counterintelligence and security activities; coordinate DoD intelligence and intelligence-related policy, plans, programs, requirements and resource allocations; oversee provision of intelligence support and involvement in information operations, focused on assessments in support of operations.

patfromlogan
19th May 04, 10:40 AM
According to an April 20, 2003, article in The Washington Post:
"Cambone’s new position also oversees assets that used to belong elsewhere, most notably a secret intelligence organization that specializes in large-scale 'deep penetration' missions in foreign countries, especially tapping communications and laying the groundwork for overt military operations. This organization, code-named Gray Fox, now effectively reports to the office of the secretary of defense.

"Asked about the transfer of control of Gray Fox, Cambone said, 'We won’t talk about those things.'...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Donnelly wrote in The Weekly Standard on September 9, 2002: "Perhaps even more important, Rumsfeld has made Dr. Steven Cambone the head of analysis and evaluation, bringing him directly into the budgeting and programming process. Fairly or not, Cambone has long been viewed as Rumsfeld's henchman, almost universally loathed--but more important, feared--by the services. The message is that, this time, Rumsfeld will get what he wants."
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The "Who's Who" section of the Washington Post, November 2001, reported that "It would be hard to exaggerate how much Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and his top aide Steven Cambone were hated within the Pentagon prior to September 11, 2001. Among other mistakes, Rumsfeld and Cambone foolishly excluded top civilian and military leaders when planning an overhaul of the military to meet new threats, thereby ensuring even greater bureaucratic resistance. According to The Washington Post, an Army general joked to a Hill staffer that 'if he had one round left in his revolver, he would take out Steve Cambone.'"

Deadpan Scientist
19th May 04, 11:18 AM
http://images.forbes.com/images/2003/10/21/vow_420x280.jpg
0-60 in 3.6sec

Electric.

Deadpan Scientist
19th May 04, 11:20 AM
Too bad it sucks

Nihilanthic
19th May 04, 12:28 PM
Over 20 mpg in the city and still fast. Its no corvette but I didn't one :P Hybrids are good though, electric motor for takeoff (those things make tons of torque, you have no idea) and enough to be a good commuter car. Its no sports car, but its not MEANT to be one. Our torquey commuter cars aren't meant to be fast either, really. IMO we need to use diesels more (better efficiency and that torque we know and love) and seriously try to get efficiency at the forefront. And for that matter electric motors are EXCELLENT in every way. Constant torque, can rev as high as you want it, you just need a powersource. Batteries at present are insufficient. If we make real good batteries and just exchange them at future 'gas stations' like propane tanks (drop off empty for a charged one) or get power cells or fusion or whatever... electric cars would be superior to most gas ones now. Only downside is you lose out on the sound and roar of an engine, and instead hear the transmission whining, the engine itself humming... and cooling fans so the motor won't burn itsself out. And ozone instead of gas fumes...

'hydrogen' this and that is no solution either, it still takes energy to MAKE the hydrogen - usually from oil. It would take a VAST rollout of wind, solar, geothermal, hydro and nuclear power to make up for not using oil. And because nobody even THINKS about it when our leaders finally see whats up its gonna be crunch time, BIG TIME, in the future. Years or decades... who knows.

A few good steps would be putting solar panels on every freaking roof that can have some put on to take strain off of the power systems and SERIOUSLY roll out wind, hydro, etc.

While I'm on my rant, why not just drill REAL REAL deep and *MAKE* geothermal plants? The earth isn't gonna cool off any quicker that way.