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KageReaper
11th May 04, 02:10 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/11/iraq.main/index.html

Damn..with a knife...so tthe guy says on Fox News when he described it.

Deadpan Scientist
11th May 04, 02:16 PM
off topic

horrible..

KageReaper
11th May 04, 02:19 PM
sorry...I tried to put it in the news section but for some reason, it would not allow me too. Not what I wanted to wake up to this morning...sadistic

johnbo
11th May 04, 02:20 PM
War sucks!

Ronin
11th May 04, 02:58 PM
He wasn't the first, and won't be the last.

KageReaper
11th May 04, 03:14 PM
True, the method they did it in caught my attention a bit more...Damn, haven't seen you in a while, ya old straightlegger..welcome back

Freddy
11th May 04, 03:55 PM
I seen something similar happen in Afghanistan (I think) with a knife.

Ka-Bar
11th May 04, 04:37 PM
While what happened to the poor guy was cruel and tragic, what the fuck was he doing there? There is no way I would be in Iraq without some serious firepower and a few hundred friends to back me up.

Deluxe247
11th May 04, 05:24 PM
What makes this really sad is that he was a civilian contractor and not even a soldier.

Teryan
11th May 04, 05:24 PM
He was a small business owner, a contractor rebuilding iraq.

drunkenj
11th May 04, 05:39 PM
rebuilding or robbing?

Deluxe247
11th May 04, 05:48 PM
rebuilding

Matt Stone
11th May 04, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by drunkenj
rebuilding or robbing?

Slap yourself before someone who isn't a jackass does...

Why is it that some "liberal minded" folks have such trouble believing that businessmen can make a living helping people?

Rebuilding or robbing... Please.

"Better to remain quiet and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Stick
11th May 04, 06:14 PM
All respect that may have once been reserved for drunkenj has just been flushed.

I particularly loved the murderer's statment "We tell you the pride of all Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and other jails is worth blood and souls".

Nice to know the lives of average people aren't even worth their pride, fucking disgusting walking bag of shit!

I have to do something to vent a little seeing as I am fucking furious right now.

And I know- I just KNOW that I'm going to have to hear some of the same kind of shit that drunkenj and ka-bar (what do you mean "what the fuck was he doing there", his fucking job- helping these people) have said here; not so subtle ways of saying that either a) he deserved it or b) what do you expect from Iraqis.

This is absolutly fucking disgusting. Ya know, I have had a lot of arguements with my fellow international students of late- or rather I've had to just sit there and take it while they tell me how sick my country is on account of what happened in that prison...... and now I know that the wonderful fucking double standard will rear it's ever so predictable head and not a one of those people who were telling me how terrible my military (in which I was raised) is will say even half the things about these people who actually fucking beheaded a prisoner.

All this talk of how 90% of those in Graihb are innocent anyways- right, whatever so was this guy and while those prisoners had to undergo the ever so horrible treatment of being threatened with dogs, humiliated, or god knows what else- AT LEAST THEY STILL HAVE THEIR FUCKING HEADS!

Meteora
11th May 04, 06:32 PM
Dai as a international student you should already know the rest of the world for the most part hates America, there is no changing their minds. Its a Big Catch-22 we police the world and they hate us for it and when we pull our forces from their fragil little countries they say they were evil because we let them suffer.

I sometimes I think America should just stop trying to help and never answer again to the call of ever shit-hole country that got it self into trouble. I'd like to see the world reaction then.

Ka-Bar
11th May 04, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Dai-Tenshi
All respect that may have once been reserved for drunkenj has just been flushed.

I particularly loved the murderer's statment "We tell you the pride of all Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and other jails is worth blood and souls".

Nice to know the lives of average people aren't even worth their pride, fucking disgusting walking bag of shit!

I have to do something to vent a little seeing as I am fucking furious right now.

And I know- I just KNOW that I'm going to have to hear some of the same kind of shit that drunkenj and ka-bar (what do you mean "what the fuck was he doing there", his fucking job- helping these people) have said here; not so subtle ways of saying that either a) he deserved it or b) what do you expect from Iraqis.

This is absolutly fucking disgusting. Ya know, I have had a lot of arguements with my fellow international students of late- or rather I've had to just sit there and take it while they tell me how sick my country is on account of what happened in that prison...... and now I know that the wonderful fucking double standard will rear it's ever so predictable head and not a one of those people who were telling me how terrible my military (in which I was raised) is will say even half the things about these people who actually fucking beheaded a prisoner.

All this talk of how 90% of those in Graihb are innocent anyways- right, whatever so was this guy and while those prisoners had to undergo the ever so horrible treatment of being threatened with dogs, humiliated, or god knows what else- AT LEAST THEY STILL HAVE THEIR FUCKING HEADS!

I don't know how you can put my post in the same category as drunkenj's. I never implied that he didn't have a right to be there or that he deserved what he got. My only intention was to state that there is no way, with Iraq as it currently exists, that I would go there as an unarmed civilian.

Secondly, I think that his killers should be brought to swift and brutal justice. There is absolutely no excuse for this kind of depravity, but I am very interested in the truth to the killers statements. If indeed the U.S. was offered this man in exchange for an Iraqi prisoner, well, some of Nicholas Berg's blood is on our hands as well.

deus ex machina
11th May 04, 06:45 PM
We don't negotiate with terrorists.

Ka-Bar
11th May 04, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by deus ex machina
We don't negotiate with terrorists.

We don't? Or we don't unless it satisfies our own interests?
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/handshake300.jpg

Stick
11th May 04, 06:48 PM
Sorry to lump you in there Ka-bar, what you said wasn't nearly as anything as DJ's, it just felt like you were saying that he had it coming for having the audacity to try and peacefully go about repairing things.

The guy was a freaking telecom repair man- a glorified cable guy!

Gah, I must eat food and weep now.

Ka-Bar
11th May 04, 06:50 PM
POW's are routinely exchanged in times of war.

Matt Stone
11th May 04, 06:51 PM
A half dozen or so soldiers do what amounts to brutal fraternity pranks and they are branded war criminals. The coverage continues into its second week...

Four civilians are attacked, killed, dismembered, burned, and hung like animals from a building, and they are forgotten in only a few days...

A civilian, non-aligned with any military activity of any kind, is kidnapped, forced to read his name and the names of his family members, then is murdered by beheading. This is captured on video and broadcast on the internet, and there still remains a question as to who the bad guy is in this fight...

I wonder how many folks remember what started the whole fight in the first place... Not too many, given the way some folks are reacting to what Dubya has had us doing.

Dubya isn't the best president we've ever had, or even the best president in the last four years, but we certainly haven't been attacked again since 9/11... Sometimes you have to stand up, draw a line in the dirt and say "cross it, and no matter the ideals I hold dear, I'm gonna fuck you up." It isn't pleasant, but sometimes its necessary...

Ka-Bar
11th May 04, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by Dai-Tenshi
Sorry to lump you in there Ka-bar, what you said wasn't nearly as anything as DJ's, it just felt like you were saying that he had it coming for having the audacity to try and peacefully go about repairing things.

The guy was a freaking telecom repair man- a glorified cable guy!

Gah, I must eat food and weep now.

No, he's just a lot braver/crazier than I am.

Ka-Bar
11th May 04, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Yiliquan1
A half dozen or so soldiers do what amounts to brutal fraternity pranks and they are branded war criminals. The coverage continues into its second week...

Four civilians are attacked, killed, dismembered, burned, and hung like animals from a building, and they are forgotten in only a few days...

A civilian, non-aligned with any military activity of any kind, is kidnapped, forced to read his name and the names of his family members, then is murdered by beheading. This is captured on video and broadcast on the internet, and there still remains a question as to who the bad guy is in this fight...

I wonder how many folks remember what started the whole fight in the first place... Not too many, given the way some folks are reacting to what Dubya has had us doing.

Dubya isn't the best president we've ever had, or even the best president in the last four years, but we certainly haven't been attacked again since 9/11... Sometimes you have to stand up, draw a line in the dirt and say "cross it, and no matter the ideals I hold dear, I'm gonna fuck you up." It isn't pleasant, but sometimes its necessary...

I don't disagree with any of that.

Osiris
11th May 04, 06:57 PM
Four civilians are attacked, killed, dismembered, burned, and hung like animals from a building, and they are forgotten in only a few days...

Those were mercenaries.

Anyway, lets be real here, someone invades MY home, and Im killing the phone man, the cable guy, the construction workers, the "security contracters" and anyone else who dares set foot in my vincinity.

Let me say though, that fucking dfecapitation is ridiculous.

nasty_totoro
11th May 04, 07:02 PM
when the us went into iraq ... i told everybody that 2 things would happen ...

1. that the "resistance" would start targeting moderates iraqis and those that have worked for the occupation forces ... such as the police, contractors, etc

2. that they would target foreign troops as well

how did i know this ???

because in every other succesful guerilla conflict ... thats more or less what happens ...

as a guerilla you MUST create discontent with the occupying powers ... that's where your support will come from ...

polarize the nation ... us vs them ... and you have the basis for a succesful uprising (note the BASIS ... not the result) ...

and the easiest way to do this is to hit those most vulnerable which produce the most effect ...

get the contractors out ot iraq and see how fast baghdad descends into chaos ... regardles of what the US Army does ...

as to foreign troops ... in the battle of stalingrad the USSR counter-attacked the italian, romanian and other divisions ... not the german ones ... iraqis read history books too ... they aren't stupid ..,

Ippatsu182
11th May 04, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by nasty_totoro
when the us went into iraq ... i told everybody that 2 things would happen ...

1. that the "resistance" would start targeting moderates iraqis and those that have worked for the occupation forces ... such as the police, contractors, etc

2. that they would target foreign troops as well

how did i know this ???

because in every other succesful guerilla conflict ... thats more or less what happens ...

as a guerilla you MUST create discontent with the occupying powers ... that's where your support will come from ...

polarize the nation ... us vs them ... and you have the basis for a succesful uprising (note the BASIS ... not the result) ...

and the easiest way to do this is to hit those most vulnerable which produce the most effect ...

get the contractors out ot iraq and see how fast baghdad descends into chaos ... regardles of what the US Army does ...

as to foreign troops ... in the battle of stalingrad the USSR counter-attacked the italian, romanian and other divisions ... not the german ones ... iraqis read history books too ... they aren't stupid ..,

That sounds pretty true.

Anyway, despite being part of war, this incident still pisses me off. While I think it's sad, I hope people (Americans) don't turn their back on Iraq.

drunkenj
11th May 04, 07:50 PM
i was not implying that the man deserved to be murdered, no-one does!
What i was implying was far more subtle; i was basicaly providing counterpoint to all those who seem to beleive that getting foreign workers to do work that iraqis could do themselves ( thus taking a lot of money out of their economy ) is something to cheer about.

Let us all be serious for a minute; the man knew fine well when he went to iraq that it was a dangerous place to be, he took a gamble and lost. It is a shame that he suffered a cruel and degrading death.

Nihilanthic
11th May 04, 07:59 PM
This isn't PC, but that shit happens all over the world anywhere - especially there.

They get SO mad when an american does it.

I do believe the pot has described the kettle as being black.

Osiris
11th May 04, 08:03 PM
They get mad when an american does some BS because we operate under the preteneses that we dont do that type of thing. Then theres the fact that Americans get pissed because thats US doing that mess. I honestly dont care THAT much about what goes on all over, but do NOT fucking attach my name to some brutality.

punchingdummy
11th May 04, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by Ka-Bar
We don't? Or we don't unless it satisfies our own interests?
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/handshake300.jpg

A little context is in order...the year was 1983, during the cold war, and the USSR was apporaching the persian gulf by way of Afghanistan, and had a growing relationship with Iran. Keep in mind that Iran had overrun our embassy and taken hostages a few years prior, and was sponsoring Hezbollah (which killed more than a few Marines in 1983). There was a growing concern that Iran would defeat Iraq, leaving an islamic extremist regime (adjacent to USSR occupation) with significant control of persian gulf oil.

Yes, working with Saddam satisfied our own interests. But it was also to prevent victory for a terrorism sponsor that had just killed hundreds of Americans. It was clearly, at the time, the lesser of evils.

On the larger question of whether we negotiate with terror states...I agree with you. We say we don't , but of course we do.

Deadpan Scientist
11th May 04, 08:26 PM
I know this should go without saying, but please do NOT under any circumstances link the video to this thread.

punchingdummy
11th May 04, 08:26 PM
Let me also vent about beheading...

The abuse of Iraqi prisoners is just wrong. Period. No excuses should be given. The damage is done and we need to take a close look in the mirror and make some changes. Those responsible must be punished.

At the same time, on the scale of 1 - 10 (10 being the worst that could happen to a prisoner) the abuses are probably around a 3. (As far as I know) We were not torturing prisoners death, hammering pieces of steel re-bar into rectums so they die slow painful deaths, castrating prisoners and shoving the freshly removed items down their throats so they choked on them, etc. etc. We were wrong for what we did, but our "wrong" is barely a warm-up compared to what others might do.

In additon, there are certain acts of hostility which slowly break a foes will to fight. The US is not particularly suited for a war of attrition. Daily IEDs and a few casualties every day will take its toll on the American will. HOWEVER, beheading an American and broadcasting it has a different effect. It creates resolve, and it is counterproductive to the insurgents goals.

patfromlogan
11th May 04, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by Meteora

I sometimes I think America should just stop trying to help and never answer again to the call of ever shit-hole country that got it self into trouble. I'd like to see the world reaction then.

This is disgusting and horrible. That said, what countries has the US been helping? This is a serious question. IMHO the US "helps" countries just about as much as we helped the Lakota after Custer's last stand. If there ain't $$$$ involved, or arms to sell, show me the "help."


Originally posted by deus ex machina
We don't negotiate with terrorists.

Is this supposed to be a joke? For Christ's sake WE are a nation that has been found guilty of TERRORISM (World Court - mining Nicaraguan harbors). And we deal with and give or sell arms to terrorist. Period. Simply a fact. How about the "Freedom Fighters?" that Col North, Poindexter were funding by dealing coke. Jesus, learn some history.


Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Dubya isn't the best president we've ever had, or even the best president in the last four years, but we certainly haven't been attacked again since 9/11... Sometimes you have to stand up, draw a line in the dirt and say "cross it, and no matter the ideals I hold dear, I'm gonna fuck you up." It isn't pleasant, but sometimes its necessary...

Too bad that Saddam and Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11. By your logic it would have made a lot more sense to conquer the fucking torturing dictators of Saudi Arabia, but of course we wouldn't want to upset Bandar (ambassador since 83?) and his princely buddies. You remember Bandar, right? The guy they call Bandar Bush. The guy who goes hunting with the Bushes? The guy who was told about the Iraq war before Colin Powell? The Saudis are in business with the Bushes, they are great friends, too bad that they fund terrorism and fly planes into buildings. Oh well, tough luck Saddam, you didn't buy a President.

fatal touchy
11th May 04, 09:28 PM
surly the americans could have just sent a team to kill saddam with out destorying innocent peoples homes just like afganstan innvading countrys won't get rid of terrosim
how many people can say that it acutal will
when there are some what 6 billion people on earth and any one of them can fly a plain into a building
the man who had his head cut off makes headlines because of the way he died i bet if he had of been shot no one would give a care
i believe america or well maybve just the president has brought more harm than good by attacking iraq
those images of people been abused in prisons is the kind of images that mad terriosts get off on and it makes more people want to kill innocent people
blame it on god

Deadpan Scientist
11th May 04, 09:40 PM
fatal touchy, assasinating saddam wouldn't change much. Someone like-minded from his administration would have just taken over. The whole regime had/has to be changed in order to bring about any meaningful change.

fatal touchy
11th May 04, 09:52 PM
ture
but i mean invading the whole country surly they could wipe out his key figures
like by getting them all together for a "friendly chat " u know then bang

Ippatsu182
11th May 04, 09:55 PM
Originally posted by brandeissansoo
fatal touchy, assasinating saddam wouldn't change much. Someone like-minded from his administration would have just taken over. The whole regime had/has to be changed in order to bring about any meaningful change.

But what's just as important is having the citizens believe that it's a just cause. If you can't get the support of the citizens, then all attempts at reform fail.

fatal touchy
11th May 04, 10:03 PM
how was saddam a threat any way i mean he had no nuclear weapons

Jenfucius
11th May 04, 10:06 PM
that is some fucked up repugnant shit. these are the people that liberals are so busy defending.

Deadpan Scientist
11th May 04, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by fatal touchy
ture
but i mean invading the whole country surly they could wipe out his key figures
like by getting them all together for a "friendly chat " u know then bang

It's also illegal to kill foreign leaders.

Deadpan Scientist
11th May 04, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by fatal touchy
how was saddam a threat any way i mean he had no nuclear weapons

Uh.. saddam did lots of things.

fatal touchy
11th May 04, 11:07 PM
i know saddam did lots of things but america doesn't do anything to help israeal or palestine or am i wrong why aren't they going to arrset yasser arfat

Stick
11th May 04, 11:08 PM
Ya know, Fatal Touchy, nations have been plenty threatening in the past without having nuclear weapons. Possession of nukes and being a threat to the region are hardly mutually exclusive.

kagato
11th May 04, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by fatal touchy
surly the americans could have just sent a team to kill saddam

Sure. Let's just fly a bunch of guys right up to a presidential palace with no support and see how quickly they get lit up with RPG's and AA fire. By your logic, we should have just sent Sam Fisher or Mr. 47 to Iraq and let them take care of the problem on their own.


the man who had his head cut off makes headlines because of the way he died i bet if he had of been shot no one would give a care

Absolutely false. The death of civilians is always repugnant, regardless of their national identities.

fatal touchy
11th May 04, 11:32 PM
i was think more on the lines of solid snake from metal gear solid

or maybe the americans could hire some of japans finest ninjas

Te(V)plar
12th May 04, 01:44 AM
Please tell me you're retarded or a troll

Noodlepower
12th May 04, 01:48 AM
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!! disgusting madness...

really? didnt read it....eDItttt..

Te(V)plar
12th May 04, 01:49 AM
I believe the mods warned against posting links to the vid.

Stick
12th May 04, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by fatal touchy
i was think more on the lines of solid snake from metal gear solid

or maybe the americans could hire some of japans finest ninjas

I sincerely hope that you're lying in your profile and are in fact not a cop. If by some tragic ARE an officer in NZ....... god I pity your fellow hobbits.

BTW: May it please the court; following the making of LotR and the fact that they renamed their capital to "Middle Earth" for the day of the film's release, I submit that New Zealanders hence forth be known not as kiwis but hobbits.

Wounded Ronin
12th May 04, 03:16 AM
Originally posted by Yiliquan1


Four civilians are attacked, killed, dismembered, burned, and hung like animals from a building, and they are forgotten in only a few days...



Well, now I think you're projecting. Do you really think anyone has forgotten?


See? Victimization complexes aren't just for us lefties! :D

Ka-Bar
12th May 04, 03:19 AM
From Yahoo! News:

Berg Had Been Advised to Leave Iraq (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040512/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq&cid=540&ncid=716)

BAGHDAD, Iraq - An American civilian who was beheaded in a grisly video posted on an al-Qaida-linked Web site had been warned to leave Iraq (news - web sites) but refused, U.S. officials said Wednesday. The masked men who butchered him claimed they were angered by coalition abuses of Iraqi prisoners.



The American captive identified himself as Nick Berg, 26, of West Chester, Pa., a suburb of Philadelphia. His body was found near a highway overpass in Baghdad on Saturday, the same day he was beheaded, a U.S. official said.

After pushing Berg to the floor, the men severed his head and held it up for the camera on the video posted Tuesday. It bore the title "Abu Musab al-Zarqawi shown slaughtering an American," referring to an associate of Osama bin Laden believed behind a wave of suicide bombings in Iraq.

It was unclear whether al-Zarqawi was shown in the video or simply ordered the execution. Al-Zarqawi also is sought in the assassination of a U.S. diplomat in Jordan in 2002. The United States has offered a $10 million reward for information leading to his capture or killing.

A U.S. official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Berg was in Iraq "of his own accord" and had been advised to leave Iraq but refused. The official refused to elaborate but promised more information later Wednesday.

According to his family, Berg, a small telecommunications business owner, spoke to his parents on March 24 and told them he would return home on March 30. But he was detained by Iraqi police at a checkpoint in Mosul on March 24.

Berg was turned over to U.S. officials and detained for 13 days. His father, Michael, said his son wasn't allowed to make phone calls or contact a lawyer. On April 5, the Bergs filed suit in federal court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military. The next day Berg was released. He told his parents he hadn't been mistreated. His family last heard from him April 9 but it was unclear when and where he was abducted.

The Bush administration said those who beheaded Berg would be hunted down and brought to justice.

"Our thoughts and prayers are with his family," White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan said. "It shows the true nature of the enemies of freedom. They have no regard for the lives of innocent men, women and children."

Friends and family of Berg said he was a "free spirit" who wanted to help others — working in Ghana, in one example — and that his going to Iraq fit with that ideology. They said he supported the Iraqi war and the Bush administration.

Berg's killing happened amid a climate of intense anti-Western sentiment, which flared in Iraq after last month's crackdown on Shiite extremists and the three-week Marine siege of Fallujah west of Baghdad. Anger at the United States swelled with the publication of photographs showing Iraqis abused and humiliated at Abu Ghraib prison, which continue to stir rage throughout the Arab world.

U.S. officials had feared the shocking photographs would endanger the lives of American troops and civilians.

In the video, five men wearing headscarves and black ski masks stand over a bound man in an orange jumpsuit similar to prison uniforms.

"My name is Nick Berg. My father's name is Michael. My mother's name is Suzanne," the man, seated in a chair, says. "I have a brother and sister, David and Sara. I live in ... Philadelphia."

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20040511/capt.lon84005111856.iraq_american_beheaded_lon840. jpg
The video then cuts to Berg sitting on the floor, his hands tied behind his back, flanked by the masked men, as a statement is read in Arabic. Berg sits still during the statement, facing the camera, occasionally raising his shoulders.

After the statement, the assailant directly behind Berg takes a large knife from under his clothing while another pulls Berg onto his side. The tape shows assailants thrusting the knife through his neck. A scream sounds before the men cut Berg's head off, repeatedly shouting "Allahu Akbar!" — or "God is great."

They then hold the head out before the camera.



The video is of poor quality, and its time stamp seems to show an 11-hour lapse between when the assailants finish their statement and push Berg down, to when they behead him. That suggests a delay between those two portions of tape posted on the Web site.

The FBI is analyzing the Internet video, an official said on condition of anonymity, adding that it was too early to draw any conclusions.

Berg attended Cornell University, Drexel University, the University of Pennsylvania and the University of Oklahoma, where he got involved in rigging electronics equipment while working for the maintenance department, his father said. He helped set up equipment at the Republican National Convention in Philadelphia in 2000.

While at Cornell, he traveled to Ghana to teach villagers how to make bricks out of minimal material. His father said Berg returned from Ghana with only the clothes on his back and emaciated because he gave away most of his food.

Michael Berg said his son saw his trip to Iraq as an adventure in line with his desire to help others.

Berg's family said they were informed by the State Department on Monday that he was found dead.

When told by a reporter about the Web site, Berg's father, brother and sister grasped one another and slowly dropped to the ground in their front yard, where they wept quietly while holding each other.

"I knew he was decapitated before," Michael Berg said. "That manner is preferable to a long and torturous death. But I didn't want it to become public."

The decapitation recalled the kidnapping and videotaped beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl in 2002 in Pakistan. Four Islamic militants have been convicted of kidnapping Pearl, but seven suspects — including those who allegedly slit his throat — remain at large.

Last month, Iraqi militants videotaped the killing of Italian hostage Fabrizio Quattrocchi, but the Arab TV network Al-Jazeera refused to air it because it was too graphic.

In the video of Berg, the executioners said they had tried to trade him for prisoners at Abu Ghraib.

"For the mothers and wives of American soldiers, we tell you that we offered the U.S. administration to exchange this hostage for some of the detainees in Abu Ghraib and they refused," one of the men read from a statement.

"So we tell you that the dignity of the Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and others is not redeemed except by blood and souls. You will not receive anything from us but coffins after coffins ... slaughtered in this way."

Seven soldiers from the 372nd Military Police Company face charges in the mistreatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib in a scandal that has sparked worldwide outrage. One of those soldiers faces a court-martial in Baghdad next week, the first to go to trial.

April 9, when Berg last made contact with his family, also was the day that seven American contractors working for a subsidiary of Halliburton Corp. and two military men disappeared after their supply convoy was attacked on the outskirts of Baghdad.

Four of the Halliburton workers and one of the military men have since been confirmed dead. Halliburton worker Thomas Hamill escaped his captors May 2 and returned home to Mississippi on Saturday. The two other Halliburton workers and the other soldier remain missing.

Two soldiers also vanished April 9. One was later found dead and the other, Pfc. Keith M. Maupin of Batavia, Ohio, was taken captive and remains missing.

Wounded Ronin
12th May 04, 03:20 AM
Originally posted by kagato
Sure. Let's just fly a bunch of guys right up to a presidential palace with no support and see how quickly they get lit up with RPG's and AA fire. By your logic, we should have just sent Sam Fisher or Mr. 47 to Iraq and let them take care of the problem on their own.






No, you don't understand! 47 could steal clothes from an Iraqi civilian and no one would notice the fact that he's white and that he has a barcode on his head. He could then walk up to the palace, wait for that one guard to walk away from the guate, and fiber wire him.

Then he could take the guards costume and walk up to Saddam Hussein's room while carefully watching the suspicion meter.

ANd then if he's smart he fiber wires Saddam so he can get away with a Silent Assassin rating.

Stick
12th May 04, 03:45 AM
I wonder just how long it will be before this video winds up on thenausea.com.

:: thinks of the executions in the Chechan section ::

>_<

edit: yeah, it's there.....

If I never hear "Allah akbar" ever again it will be too fucking soon.

I feel kinda queezy.

SLJ
12th May 04, 04:23 AM
That's disturbing. I've seen the Russian one and don't want to see anything like that ever agian. You know the sick mother fuckers enjoyed every second of it. Pricks.

MrMcFu
12th May 04, 04:32 AM
You reap what you sow.

People get violent when you invade their homes, kill innocents, then tell them things will get better as you mistreat the prisoners.

I had an arab tell me that in arabic culture, torturing those guys physically would have been less repugnant than doing what the US soldiers did to them.

It's still fucked up about that guy getting his head hacked off though . . .

SLJ
12th May 04, 05:29 AM
Everyone should just get out of that shit hole.

patfromlogan
12th May 04, 06:30 AM
Originally posted by SLJ
Everyone should just get out of that shit hole.

I've a sneaking suspicion that as soon as the world's second largest oil field is drained the US won't give a rat's ass about Iraq.

Ronin
12th May 04, 06:47 AM
Although I have never seen a decapitation, I have seen the results, live, in Bosnia..
Not a pretty picture, the face becomes all...distorted..the eyes...its just a horrible site...

One thing to be made clear, I am sure there are some mercenaries in Iraq, bit to make an assumption about htis guy, or anyother is wrong.
I know 3 people that are civilians in Iraq, and I can garantee that none of them are mercs.
2 are engineers and one is a "pressure vessel" specialist.
So, lets keep the merc talk to a min. till we know for sure , ok?

MrMcFu
12th May 04, 06:55 AM
Hell no the US won't stay in Iraq once the oil is gone. If you want to rescue some people and feel good about yourself, then go down to Africa and make noise in some areas don't even have a freaking government . . .

And make sure you take along a plan on how to do it first . . .

LolodesBois
12th May 04, 07:06 AM
Unfortunately getting out of there is as bad as going there in the first place, now that Chaos has erupted The US kind of has a responsability to stay there until the new Iraky govt is in place AND can defend itself against enemy both within and outside of the country.

And I believe this is why most European countries didn't want to get involved, not only because he posed no real threat but because you can't force a democracy on to another country, every democracy that has held itself became one because of it's population will, not because an army came in and change the government and said 'when we are gone you will be able to vote'

As someone said earlier that these events would happen could be foreseen easily, I think that every world leader should have a mandatory World History course before they get in the office that way they may stop doing the same mistake over and over.

And to the americans who think everyone hates America, well most Europeans (I talk to) actually like americans and love the US we just don't agree with the current governments international policy...but I understand media coverage would make you think that, just like media coverage in Europe gives a distorted image of the US.

Luckily I lived in the US and I know better :-)

But I think it's human nature to see more wrongs in others than in self, I had to remind one of my country man who was 'outraged' at the English and Americans soldier mistreating prisoners that our army members were guilty of doing the same in Congo. It is unfortunate that the act of individual soldiers reflects on the whole army but it is a fact so these soldier better be punished severely

SLJ
12th May 04, 07:26 AM
"our army members were guilty of doing the same in Congo."


That's nothing compared to your biggest crime.


Jean Claude Van Damme !

LolodesBois
12th May 04, 07:32 AM
ROTFL

Yes I'm 'aware' of that...

LolodesBois
12th May 04, 07:34 AM
MrMcFu raised a good point : when you are going to 'liberate' or help a country you better learn the a bit of it's culture if you want the population with you. Humiliation vs phisical torture is one but I also remember the earlier incidents with US soldier coming in homes with dogs and male soldier searching women, open a simple tourist guide and you already have a list of 'do and don't' that coalition soldiers broke every day.

MrMcFu
12th May 04, 08:23 AM
Why should you learn to do that when your leader, who is suppossed to set an example, can't even be bothered to learn the leader's name of a country with nuclear weapons when he is running for president?

Of course, I bet Bush knows Musherif's (sp) name now . . .

LolodesBois
12th May 04, 08:35 AM
Well one would hope that army veterans have better comon sense than politicians.

Of course as I said earlier these incidents may have been blown out of proportion by the media and the majority of soldiers did behave themselves properly they apparently did start drilling the soldiers AFTER the incidents, it should have been done before though imho.

WingChun Lawyer
12th May 04, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by MrMcFu
You reap what you sow.

People get violent when you invade their homes, kill innocents, then tell them things will get better as you mistreat the prisoners.

Point. And to be honest, in the beginning of the occupation the iraqis seemed to be keeping to themselves and mostly leaving the coalition alone (i.e. no massive rebellion such as Najaf or Fallujah) - it´s not as if they acted out of spite from the beginning, IMHO the USA had enough time to prove they at least intended to actually hand Iraq to a representative iraqi government.

Burning shiite newspapers and stopping the census for an election were not moves indicative of such intentions, and the iraqis seem to be paying attention to what´s being done, instead of what´s being said.

MrMcFu
12th May 04, 08:52 AM
Hmm . . . and what prison pictures DIDN'T we see?

WingChun Lawyer
12th May 04, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by MrMcFu
Hmm . . . and what prison pictures DIDN'T we see?

And, more immediately important...what stories are the iraqis on the street being told by survivors of US controlled prisons? Doesn´t matter how much is actually true, after seeing the pictures that did go to the media, most iraqis will be willing to believe just about anything regarding US soldier brutality.

DANINJA
12th May 04, 09:32 AM
i have heard there are more images of torture( and of a sexual nature) however the pentagon will not release them to the public due to the problems it will cause.

Most iraqis are actually shocked by the beheading:

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Most Baghdad residents on Wednesday condemned al Qaeda's beheading of a U.S. civilian in Iraq (news - web sites), but many said his death was just the latest atrocity in a cycle of violence that is driving them to despair.


A Web site video showed a masked man cutting off the head of Nick Berg, a 26-year-old civilian, and said al Qaeda's leader in Iraq had personally carried out the killing in revenge for abuses against Iraqi prisoners.


Berg went missing last month when dozens of foreigners were seized by guerrillas after Marines launched a crackdown in the city of Falluja. The Marine operation followed the killing and grisly mutilation of four U.S. security guards in the city.


"The Americans killed hundreds in Falluja in retaliation for the mutilation of the four Americans and now those people are killing an American in retaliation for the torture of prisoners," said Arkan Mohammad, a cleric at Baghdad University.


"Someone has to do something to stop the cycle of violence from going on and on."


Even in the Baghdad Sunni Muslim stronghold of Adhamiya, where there is fierce opposition to the occupation, many residents were appalled by the decapitation of Berg.


"We denounce this act. No-one can accept the killing of another human being in this horrible way," said Yassir Saleh, a 30-year-old barber. But he too pointed to a tide of violence that has swept the country since the fall of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites).


"Sometimes I really can't understand the logic of what is happening, all the violence that I could have never imagined would take place in my country," he said.


Many Iraqis say they oppose the U.S.-led occupation but also despise insurgents whose suicide attacks, mortar strikes and bomb blasts have killed far more Iraqis than Americans.


Issa al-Khalidi, a 65-year-old pensioner sitting in one of the oldest coffeehouses in Adhamiya, also condemned the killing but looked around nervously as he did.


"It's a brutal, inhuman act. As Muslims our religion prohibits us from committing such acts," he said.


"People with their own interpretations of Islam are coming to this country and killing left and right, and the Americans are just providing them with the pretext to do so."


But some of the city's poorer residents said they supported the killing, arguing it was acceptable retribution for the abuses the U.S. military had committed in Iraq.


"This is the price they have to pay for what they have done," said 33-year-old Omar Khateb, a labourer.


"It was done according to Islamic Sharia, and the Americans should know that there is a price they will pay for the atrocities they commit."

LolodesBois
12th May 04, 09:44 AM
yep I'm always amazed at the stupidity of people, to be sadistic and foolish is one thing but taking pictures of it.....

That's why a public trial of these 'soldiers' (I have a problem calling them that now since I do respect soldiers in general) is needed it won't stop the outrage but it will show sign of 'justice' to people who have never seen it.

Don't know if that will help slow the degradation of things though.

Ronin
12th May 04, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by DANINJA
i





Issa al-Khalidi, a 65-year-old pensioner sitting in one of the oldest coffeehouses in Adhamiya, also condemned the killing but looked around nervously as he did.


"It's a brutal, inhuman act. As Muslims our religion prohibits us from committing such acts," he said.


"People with their own interpretations of Islam are coming to this country and killing left and right, and the Americans are just providing them with the pretext to do so."






Well said, and about time someone said it.

MrMcFu
12th May 04, 09:52 AM
Nothing short of establishing a true multi-national prescence led by the UN . . . Get some of the other arab countries involved . . .

WingChun Lawyer
12th May 04, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by MrMcFu
Nothing short of establishing a true multi-national prescence led by the UN . . . Get some of the other arab countries involved . . .

I may be mistaken, but I believe the Red Cross suggested creating a multi national task force made up by arab nations to take care of things in Iraq. Not that Mr. Bush would ever agree on that, of course, but it might work...or maybe not, things are dangerous and confused there at the moment.

patfromlogan
12th May 04, 10:58 AM
MAUREEN DOWD May 9
"George Tenet is still running the C.I.A. after the biggest intelligence failures since some Trojan ignored Cassandra's chatter and said, "Roll the horse in." Colin Powell is still around after trash-talking to Bob Woodward about his catfights with the Bushworld "Mean Girls" — Rummy, Cheney, Wolfie and Doug Feith. The vice president still rules after promoting a smashmouth foreign policy that is more Jack Palance than Shane. And the president still edges out John Kerry in polls, even though Mr. Bush observed with no irony to Al Arabiya TV: "Iraqis are sick of foreign people coming in their country and trying to destabilize their country, and we will help them rid Iraq of these killers."

The only people who have been pushed aside in this administration are the truth tellers who warned about policies on taxes (Paul O'Neill); war costs (Larry Lindsey); occupation troop levels (Gen. Eric Shinseki); and how Iraq would divert from catching the ubiquitous Osama (Richard Clarke).

Even if the secretary survives, the Rummy Doctrine — using underwhelming force to achieve overwhelming goals — is discredited. Jack Murtha, a Democratic hawk and Vietnam vet, says "the direction's got to be changed or it's unwinnable," and Lt. Gen. William Odom, retired, told Ted Koppel that Iraq was headed toward becoming an Al Qaeda haven and Iranian ally."

I like her stuff, unrepentant liberal; coining phrases like "the mean girls" and "underwhelming force to achieve overwhelming goals."

So far the US is seeming to unite the Shias and Sunnis as enemies of their enemy. Maybe we'll piss of the Kurds and they can actually have an united country.

Ippatsu182
12th May 04, 11:27 AM
I just watched that video of Berg's murder. It was pretty sickening. Another innocent victim of war...

Ronin
12th May 04, 11:31 AM
PM me the link for the video please.

Ippatsu182
12th May 04, 12:14 PM
Okay. I sent the link to you, Ronin.

Ronin
12th May 04, 01:13 PM
Disturbing, but pretty much what I though it would be, fuckers can't even cut off a head right.
They made sure he suffered as much as he could by doing it that way...
That was just fucking cruel...
Well, I guess it could have been worst, in Bosnia we found a body headless and his (?) head had the mouth stuffed with his testicles...
Fucking world we live in...

KageReaper
12th May 04, 02:45 PM
Could you PM it to me as well?

Osiris
12th May 04, 03:09 PM
Shoudnt it be available at the usual sources for that type of material?

Stick
12th May 04, 03:21 PM
like I said, www.thenausea.com, click on "patriots" then asia, Iraq, and the little clock thing for "up to date" Iraq coverage

fragbot
12th May 04, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by MrMcFu
You reap what you sow.

People get violent when you invade their homes, kill innocents, then tell them things will get better as you mistreat the prisoners.


I don't think your assumption--Joe Sixpaqi--did this is a safe one. While I think Joe orchestrated the Falluja stuff, this has a far different smell to it than that did.


I had an arab tell me that in arabic culture, torturing those guys physically would have been less repugnant than doing what the US soldiers did to them.


Worried about offending the sensibilities of Arabic culture, tell your wife to get back in the kitchen. And when she speaks with another man, make sure you shoot her (or, better yet, disfigure her with acid or cooking oil) to avenge the family honor.

Remember, all cultures are equally valid and deserving of respect.

Freddy
12th May 04, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by drunkenj
i was not implying that the man deserved to be murdered, no-one does!


I have to agree. No does deserve to be murdered.

Freddy
12th May 04, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by fatal touchy
ture
but i mean invading the whole country surly they could wipe out his key figures
like by getting them all together for a "friendly chat " u know then bang

Yeah then you will have a country running in chaos.

Uhhh....? Something we are having in Iraq at the moment.

Freddy
12th May 04, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Jenfucius
that is some fucked up repugnant shit. these are the people that liberals are so busy defending.

What liberals are defending?

Freddy
12th May 04, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by Te(V)plar
Please tell me you're retarded or a troll

I think you should attack the content of what someone says than attack the person.

Freddy
12th May 04, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by SLJ
That's disturbing. I've seen the Russian one and don't want to see anything like that ever agian. You know the sick mother fuckers enjoyed every second of it. Pricks.

Was that the Russian one in Afghanistan? My friends saw that one. They took that guys head off with a knife too.

Freddy
12th May 04, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by ronin69
Disturbing, but pretty much what I though it would be, fuckers can't even cut off a head right.
They made sure he suffered as much as he could by doing it that way...
That was just fucking cruel...
Well, I guess it could have been worst, in Bosnia we found a body headless and his (?) head had the mouth stuffed with his testicles...
Fucking world we live in...
I totally sympathize with you. Seeing images of atrocities commited (in many) wars just makes pne sick with disgust. Everyone does it. The Isreali/Arab wars both sides cut off the testicles of dead soldiers and shoved them in thier moths. I remeber seeing pictures of thge civil war in Cyprus. You had people parding the decapitated heads of others etc. In west Africa disembowelment of live prisoners is common practice. Thats exactly why war is fucked up. At least you are talking from first hand experience. These types of things happens in all wars.
I can understand why people are turning towards God (or some higher power). Our world is really fucked up!

Stick
12th May 04, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by Freddy

I can understand why people are turning towards God (or some higher power).

Does anyone else find that statement kind of odd coming from freddy?

Kein Haar
12th May 04, 05:41 PM
Mr McFu,

Remember Daniel Pearl?

patfromlogan
12th May 04, 06:41 PM
I heard that there has been some negative reactions from Joe Sixraqi. I should hope so. And I hope that this doesn't become like Jew/Pal. endless retribution.

Mr_Mantis
12th May 04, 08:03 PM
I made a hyperlink because this image is extremely graphic. There is a banner with some writing on it, my guess is that it is arabic. Israel is in the center, along with what may be the dome of the rock. Can anyone here tell us what this says?

Click here to see a severed head with the logo (http://www.thenausea.com/elements/usa/iraq%202004/05/Souar-04d.jpg)

FCTKD
12th May 04, 09:46 PM
I haven't been able to read all the posts but just thought I'd point out some very interesting facts. Nick Berg the unfortunate victim was questioned and put into custody by the FBI before leaving the US. His parents sued the government, they let him go. His parents then were taken in for questioning. Hmmm why? One report said that it was posted on an al-queda as a backlash for the mistreatment of Iraqi soldiers by american military personel. Al-queda and shiets (Saddams regime) don't get along get alongh at all with those types of muslims, sum it up very fishy!!!

Osiris
12th May 04, 10:02 PM
Didnt brand just say NOT to post it here?

Kein Haar
12th May 04, 10:10 PM
Yes. He did.

Stick
12th May 04, 10:28 PM
Apparently my clear instructions on how to find the video weren't clear enough, lazy fucks.

MrMcFu
12th May 04, 11:18 PM
I didn't say what happened was right. I said it was fucked up and wrong.

My point was that you have to expect that kind of stuff when you invade a foreign country. I know I would try to get medival on some bitches that occupied my land and made my life shittier . . .

The thing about the Arab culture was just to try and have people understand why they are so pissed off. There is right and wrong - alot of stuff in Arabic culture is wrong and fucked up. That's just the way it is. Like the head thing- what is the first thing Saudi women do after leaving Saudi airspace? Take it off!

KillerInstinct
12th May 04, 11:33 PM
sorry didn't read I deletd it anyway.

fragbot
13th May 04, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by patfromlogan
I heard that there has been some negative reactions from Joe Sixraqi. I should hope so. And I hope that this doesn't become like Jew/Pal. endless retribution.

I don't think the "guy on the street" wants to see this sort of thing. While people can understand a mob going crazy (eg Fallujah) or a guy shooting at soldiers (numerous spots), few people will understand the following:

1) capturing a guy
2) decapitating him while he's still conscious
3) singing the praises of god
4) filming it for all to see
5) releasing it as a symbol of your fidelity to said god

Most people will rightly see them as comrades of Pol Pot, or, Idi Amin.

MUT
13th May 04, 02:33 AM
I havent read all the posts so if this post seems random you know why:)

The thing I dont like about all this is that when we see some pictures of some poor iraqi getting pee'd on there is massive uproar but when hostage taking and hostage/coalition civilian killing taking occur there doesnt seem to get as much attention.(Who hears very much about those americans getting shredded anymore?)

I in no way think the the humiliation of the iraqi prisoners is right but like someone said before its not as bad as slow torture.

The thing I dont like about alot of these poorer countries is that they always blame the west for everything.Like in Iraq they keep blaming the americans for taking over and blaming them for making them poor.But then on the other hand we have dont have the sunni's and shiites working together to solve their problems.Instead we have them blowing each other up.


And who the FUCK cuts off someones head in the name of god?

deus ex machina
13th May 04, 02:59 AM
Mistreating prisoners is unacceptable.

Killing civilian contractors is unacceptable.

My roommate and I are planning on running a private jihad very soon. As my roommate so eloquently put it, "When I become rich, I'm going to nuke the whole fucking Middle East."

MUT
13th May 04, 03:01 AM
:rolleyes:

MrMcFu
13th May 04, 04:41 AM
MUT, It's fucked up on all sides - the problem is that the US went in there on a white horse, talking about how good everything was going to be.

Well, it turns out like it's just like any other war, with all kinds of crazy, sick crap going on.

There is no liberation, no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and no toothfairy. Just "bidness" as usual.

fatal touchy
13th May 04, 05:47 AM
will you write hatefull messages on the bomb like in pearl harbour

Escrima9
13th May 04, 06:51 AM
Originally posted by MrMcFu
The thing about the Arab culture was just to try and have people understand why they are so pissed off. There is right and wrong - alot of stuff in Arabic culture is wrong and fucked up. That's just the way it is. Like the head thing- what is the first thing Saudi women do after leaving Saudi airspace? Take it off!

The head scarf isn't exclusive to Arab culture, it is actually a part of Islam. While many women choose not to wear it or remove it when leaving saudi, there are still many Muslim women leaving outside the middle east/Asia who wear full hijab whenever outside the home.

I may be misunderstanding what you've said but wearing a scarf is far from 'fucked up' in my opinion. Forcing someone to wear it (as in saudi) or not wear it (as is the case in some European countries) now that is fucked up.

Escrima9
13th May 04, 06:53 AM
Originally posted by deus ex machina
Mistreating prisoners is unacceptable.

Killing civilian contractors is unacceptable.

My roommate and I are planning on running a private jihad very soon. As my roommate so eloquently put it, "When I become rich, I'm going to nuke the whole fucking Middle East."

And there aren't any civillians in the middle east so nuking them perfectly acceptable.

Ronin
13th May 04, 06:56 AM
Look, cutting off someone's head and praising Allah is just as stupid as bombing a country and saying "god bless america".

There is enough blatant stupidity to go around.

This will only get worst.

MUT
13th May 04, 07:03 AM
Originally posted by MrMcFu
MUT, It's fucked up on all sides - the problem is that the US went in there on a white horse, talking about how good everything was going to be.

Well, it turns out like it's just like any other war, with all kinds of crazy, sick crap going on.

There is no liberation, no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and no toothfairy. Just "bidness" as usual.

I completely agree dude.

WingChun Lawyer
13th May 04, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by ronin69
Look, cutting off someone's head and praising Allah is just as stupid as bombing a country and saying "god bless america".

There is enough blatant stupidity to go around.

This will only get worst.

Finally, a voice of reason!

patfromlogan
13th May 04, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by ronin69
This will only get worst.



ttt

I Ain't Marching Anymore
Phil Ochs
Written by Phil Ochs and Bob Gibson


Oh, I marched to the battle of New Orleans
At the end of the early British war
The young land started growin'
The young blood started flowin'
But I ain't a-marchin' anymore

But I've killed my share of Injuns
In a thousand different fights
I was there at the Little Big Horn
I saw many men lyin'
I saw many more dyin'
But I ain't a-marchin' anymore


It's always the old to lead us to the war
Always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the saber and the gun
Tell me, is it worth it all

For I stole California from the Mexican land
Fought in the bloody Civil War
Yes I even killed my brothers
And so many others
But I ain't a-marchin' anymore

For I marched to the battles of the German trench
In a war that was bound to end all wars
Oh, I must have killed a million men
And now they want me back again
But I ain't a-marchin' anymore

It's always the old to lead us to the war
Always the young to fall
Now look at all we've won with the saber and the gun
Tell me, is it worth it all



For I flew the final mission in the Japanese sky
Set off the mighty mushroom roar
When I saw the cities burnin'
I knew that I was learnin'
That I ain't a-marchin' anymore

Now the labor leader's screamin' when they close the missile plants
United Fruit screams at the Cuban shore
Call it "Peace" or call it "Treason"
Call it "Love" or call it "Reason"
But I ain't a-marchin' any more.

No, I ain't a-marchin' any more

Ronin
13th May 04, 09:40 AM
When the "why's" of ANY conflict come into doubt...
Its time to move on.

patfromlogan
13th May 04, 09:43 AM
Out of the thread or out of the war?

Ronin
13th May 04, 09:45 AM
It works on many levels...
But the justification(s) for this conflict keeps getting less and less viable.

WingChun Lawyer
13th May 04, 10:04 AM
Oh, cool song, Pat.

patfromlogan
13th May 04, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
Oh, cool song, Pat.

Thanks, I made a good tape years ago off lp's of mine and my friends. It ranges from this to Dylan to reggae to old Black (Ain't Gonna Study War No More) to Baez doing "Where Have All the Flowers Gone" live in German to Hendrix's "Star Spangled Banner." Now I want it on cd.

I'm going to start a thread on Rummy and the Geneva Convention when I have time. I know he didn't call the Afghan prisoners POWs and that changed their status.

To work...

deus ex machina
13th May 04, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Escrima9
And there aren't any civillians in the middle east so nuking them perfectly acceptable.

I thought that was obvious in my post, but yes, I don't care if some worthless towelhead bites the dust.

DANINJA
13th May 04, 04:18 PM
found this article(conspiracy theory) regarding the beheading:

Fishy Circumstances and Flawed Timelines Surround American's Beheading

Infowars.com
05-12-04

UPDATE 12:45PM Central: This just in -- U.S. spokesman says decapitated American was never held by U.S. forces

With several news outlets reporting that Berg's family is angry from the US government over their son's violent death and revelations that "Berg was detained by Iraqi police at a checkpoint in Mosul on March 24. He was turned over to U.S. officials and detained for 13 days" (in other words, he was detained by the US military just prior to his death) -- (AP 5/11/04) we have to question what really happened and who was really behind Berg's horrific murder.

We have received several emails from listeners questioning what really happened including this one:

me and a friend were discussing recent news events and trying to piece together the information presented to us, thought you might want to look into this further, they said in the news that nicholas berg was killed 2 weeks ago (i think), however in the video the culprits who killed him said they were "avenging iraqi prisoner abuse" but those photos weren't released until last week, so my question is how is that even a possible motive if he was killed prior to the abuse photos being released?? maybe i am misinformed but thought id ask the question to someone who would look into it

And this one:

Hey Alex, I know people like me who have learned not to trust our government tend to see a conspiracy under every rock. With that said... The picture the media is now showing of the guy the terrorist beheaded as revenge for what went on in the Iraqi prisons looks odd to me. If you look at the men dressed in black, they all seem well fed. Actually most look fat. That bothers me, because these guys are fighting a war and eating on the run. They are constantly on the move and should be either very fit and trim or scrawny and malnourished because of the same reasons. One thing they should not be is fat like couch potatoes. If you look at all of the photos of the prisoners who were naked who supposedly were just plucked of the street, most of them are thin. Just an observation Alex

And this one:

1) extremely convenient "wag the dog" timing at the height of furor
regarding U.S. torture of Iraqis

2) CNN poll question: "Is the Berg killing a reason for withholding any
remaining Iraq prisoner abuse pictures?" Bush has been reported to be
struggling with question of whether Pentagon should release additional
torture photos. Given that the alleged decapitation of Berg was allegedly
prompted by the first wave of torture photos, Bush could now cite "national
security" issues for witholding additional materials.

3) Berg's last known whereabouts was in U.S. custody.

4) Berg shown in video wearing orange jumpsuit known to be of U.S. issue
(compare with pictures at Guantanamo).

5) Berg mysteriously captured by Al-Quaeda (still wearing jumpsuit). Either
he escaped from U.S. captors or U.S. let him out -- with orange suit and
all -- to be immediately apprehended by Al-Quaeda (before he had a chance to
change).

6) Tape obviously spliced together and heavily edited. Goes from a) Berg
sitting in chair talking about family, to b) Berg sitting on floor with
hooded "militants" behind, to c) blurry camera movement, to d) almost
motionless Berg on floor as head cut off.

7) Audio clearly dubbed in.

8) "Arab" reader flips through pages of "statement" and keeps ending up on
the same page. Perhaps doesn't even known enough Arabic to recognize what
page he's on?

9) "Arabs" have lily-white hands and (other exposed) skin.

10) "Arabs" have Western-style body posture and mannerisms.

11) When Berg decapitated, there was almost no blood. If Berg were still
alive at this point, with the cut starting at front of throat, blood would
have been spraying everywhere. Berg's severed head, the floor, Berg's
clothes, and even the hand of the "Arab" who decapitated Berg had no visible
blood on it.

12) Berg's body didn't move while on the ground. Although held down, Berg
would have tried to instinctively wiggle and writhe away from captor's grip.

13) Camera angle made it impossible to see if Berg's eyes were even open.

14) Alleged "scream" from Berg sounded to be that of a woman and was clearly
dubbed in.

15) Berg goes to great trouble to identify himself, providing information
about his family. Why? To elicit greater sympathy? Or to provide a
positive ID. FBI visited Berg family in an attempt to "verify his
identity". Guy in video looks very little like Berg photos provided by
family.

I believe that Berg (or this lookalike character) was first killed (perhaps
by lethal injection, poisoning, etc.), then decapitated after dead (explains
lack of blood spraying everywhere). Berg was killed by Al-Quaeda (known to
be a CIA - Mossad joint venture). Berg video released at height of furor
over U.S. torture of Iraqis and just before Bush was to decide whether to
release additional torture videos. Now torture videos will be witheld from
public for reasons of national security. Now "patriots" everywhere will
laud the virtues of U.S. torture of "enemies". Sensitivity level of public
gets heightened in terms of what's acceptable treatment of prisoners.
Juxtaposed with decapitation, piling naked men into pyramid is nothing.
Such treatment will be considered more and more acceptable even in domestic
situations. George W. Bush sleeps well tonight while Berg family lives in
torture. Serves Berg's father right for opposing Bush and the war of
aggression against Iraq.

Jeff Rense has compiled some important information on Berg's detainment and questioning what really happened in his article, " Why Did The US Take
Custody Of Nick Berg?"

Two things are for sure:

First, Berg parents feel that their son was abandoned and betrayed by the US Government.

Second: NeoCons have already started to use Nick Berg's murder to justify torture and more war

Phoenix
13th May 04, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by deus ex machina
I thought that was obvious in my post, but yes, I don't care if some worthless towelhead bites the dust.

Meh...

You wanna nuke them, that's totally cool.

But do it right and kill them all, cuz those you don't kill will be the ones that get their hands on a nuke and try to do us.

Stick
13th May 04, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by DANINJA
found this article(conspiracy theory) regarding the beheading:


For some reason, I'm thinking "riiiiiiiiight".


Two things i found ludicrous; first, the "they look too fat".... they're in gear you idiots. Second, "he screamed like a woman", that was a man's voice, trust me, I have heard screams like that from plenty of big, strapping, manly men.

As for the orange jumpsuit thing; what? Are you seriously suggesting the only place you can get an orange jumpsuit is from the US Government?

As for Berg looking different in the pictures provided by the family, well gee, the pictures they provided are from before he fucking left for Iraq and he had a shaved head..... of course he looks different!

A lot of those points offered in that article are pretty assinine.

Also, what the fuck do these peopel mean "there should be blood spurting everywhere"? He was held down to the ground, any blood spurts would likely be spurting on the fucking ground. Ever see that video of the Russian soldier having his throat slit? This is not Hollywood.

I ahve the feeling I'm going to be editing onto this post over and over again >_<

patfromlogan
13th May 04, 11:20 PM
Well I've killed various animals (last was a deer that a dog had attacked and it broke it's neck in the trees) and while blood doesn't spurt everywhere, it is a mess.

And to those that want to nuke, murder, fry, anihilate, wipe out, burn, shoot, bust, stab and kill Iraqis, here's some pictures to cheer you up of dead or injured
Iraqis.

http://www.welinske.com/child7.jpg
Doesn't her foot, or lack of one, make you feel good inside? Don't you want to cut her some more?
http://www.welinske.com/child6.jpg

http://www.welinske.com/child5.jpg

ARE YOU HAPPY NOW???

patfromlogan
13th May 04, 11:28 PM
Here's some healthy ones, want to hurt them? Niits make lice, and what a fucking towel head worth anyway?

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20010117/220iraqschoolcramped.jpg
http://www.biblesociety.org/wr_360/360_p04.jpg
http://www.un.org/Photos/iraq/187400.jpg

Hey, let's get some napalm and have some FUN!!

JackHanma
14th May 04, 12:00 AM
Why don't you post some early pictures of German children from WWII while you are at it? Let's face it even if we weren't in Iraq; life would still suck for Iraqis.

fatal touchy
14th May 04, 12:22 AM
pain and sufering of the east is the balance to joy and happyness of the west
yin and yang

Nihilanthic
14th May 04, 01:24 AM
The Zero-sum theory is bunk, dude. Total bunk.

They could quit dumping resources into what it is (personal spending of the rich/royaly/govt/military shit ) and like... I dunno... educate, do public works shit, call in some economists. Use their money wisely? That oil is gonna be GONE within 100 years in all likelyhood, they need to diversify and start getting other sources of energy, or accept going back to the stone age, because the world will forget about them like it has central asia and a lot of africa. :(

Look at Turkey! If their loans interest rates werent so fucking high they'd probably be a lot better off. I really think they need a big dose of Vitamin S - secularism. And a reneissance. Multiculturalists can kiss my ass - they need to ditch some of their archaic ways, some of their culture that the rest of the world does not approve of, and either moderate or secularize their government, and make religion personal, not what Islam looks like today on the media.

Yeah I know its only a minority, but its enough to fuck that part of the world over. It doesn't need to be part of govt. or law. If people would face reality and not bury their head in the sand of 'faith' maybe humanity woudl get along a little better.

But alas, I opened up a can of worms. Flame away! I really don't give a fuck anymore!

Stick
14th May 04, 02:19 AM
In case anyone missed it when I said it first; I despise theocracies.

Also, Pat, don't feel too compelled to outdo yourself in response to the ramblings of Dues Ex Machina, I'm beginning to think that guy's just a knob.

edit: hmmmm, wasn't just DEM...... blegh

Whatever.

JOHN DOE
14th May 04, 02:33 AM
war is hell!!!!!!!!
Hey you forgot the pictures of all the dead children in the twin towers nursery.Or all the people for that matter.

Ronin
14th May 04, 07:14 AM
The only people to ever condone war or mass genocide, are the ones that have NEVER been in a fight, much less a battle, nevermind a war.

Escrima9
14th May 04, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by ronin69
The only people to ever condone war or mass genocide, are the ones that have NEVER been in a fight, much less a battle, nevermind a war.

Well said.

WingChun Lawyer
14th May 04, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by Dai-Tenshi
Also, Pat, don't feel too compelled to outdo yourself in response to the ramblings of Dues Ex Machina, I'm beginning to think that guy's just a knob.


Seconded. Certain subjects are beyond jokes. People dying because of the stupidity and greed of others are among those.

patfromlogan
14th May 04, 09:25 AM
grumble grumble...

WingChun Lawyer
14th May 04, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by patfromlogan
grumble grumble...

"pats Pat in the back"

Rigante
14th May 04, 10:11 AM
Are you saying Ronin that Canada and the US should have stayed out of WW2 and let Hitler do his thing. Call me a warmonger if you like but WW2 was justified including Hiroshima.

Mr_Mantis
14th May 04, 10:54 AM
Is it bad to send them all to Allah? I thought that was good.

Ronin
14th May 04, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by Rigante
Are you saying Ronin that Canada and the US should have stayed out of WW2 and let Hitler do his thing. Call me a warmonger if you like but WW2 was justified including Hiroshima.

My comment would have been towards HITLER, not they other way around.
Also, I am not sure how THAT scenario applies to the current situation.

Rigante
14th May 04, 12:23 PM
There are some wars that easily can be justified. With others its more difficult and some wars are not justifiable. WW2 no problem with that, Korean war same way, Vietnam probably not, Afganistan no problem, Iraq is looking questionable.

Ronin
14th May 04, 12:40 PM
Indeed, wars NEED justification to hold on to the slightest shred of morals.
My tour in Bosnia was a Good tour and I am proud of my time there, not the end note, but that is another story.
This Iraq situation is rapidly becoming an ugly can of worms that is still very questionable in wither it should have been opned at all.

WingChun Lawyer
14th May 04, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Rigante
There are some wars that easily can be justified. With others its more difficult and some wars are not justifiable. WW2 no problem with that, Korean war same way, Vietnam probably not, Afganistan no problem, Iraq is looking questionable.

I mostly agree with you. No one ever said US intervention at WW2 was wrong or questionable, or the intervention in Afghanistan, for that matter (that was mostly self defense, IMHO).

But you´ve got to admit the whole affair in Iraq seemed fishy from the start. First it was a preemptive strike to avoid the danger of the WMD, then it was to stop the atrocities commited by a bloodthirsty dictator, and now the US government is reduced to, figuratively speaking, looking at the ceiling and pretending they can´t hear when people ask what the hell were you guys thinking when you invaded Iraq.

Rigante
14th May 04, 12:58 PM
I think they made a mistake. They thought (as did most of the world) that WMD were being produced in Iraq. The problem was they couldnt get Saddam to comply with the UN demands so they invaded. Well there are no WMD's. However we couldnt just leave the next day. It would be like doing an surgical procedure, getting down to the abdomen and finding no problem and just leaving the wound open without trying to close. I think they should get some sort of government in place and then get out. I have no interest in trying to turn them into a democracy, as that may be contrary to their culture. We should leave some stability in place so the common man, woman and child can feed their families etc. This is a war on terrorism and as just like in any war some battles are a mistake and some are the right move. We need to get out and be preparing for the next battle wherever that is. This is going to be a long war and we need to utilize our resources carefully.

WingChun Lawyer
14th May 04, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Rigante
I think they made a mistake. They thought (as did most of the world) that WMD were being produced in Iraq.

This is questionable, remember the UN inspectors said they believed there were no WMD in Iraq, even when Saddam denied them access to his palaces.

But still, there is the question of the african uranium. That was an outright lie of Mr. Bush.

Rigante
14th May 04, 01:26 PM
We can never know what exactly are in peoples heads when they make decisions. The reason I think they truly thought there was a problem with WMD was they had to know it would be a major problem if they invaded and no WMD were found. They obviously overestimated the intelligence info they had and that was their mistake. However the best way to deal with a mistake is to acknowledge it, learn from it and move on. If the Russians and the French had not been so active in supporting Saddam then perhaps Saddam would have complied with the cease fire provisions he had originally agreed to. I imagine Saddams first response to hearing the invasion was muttering an arabic version of "oh shit". The Bush family is like a family of pit bulls, they may not be too smart, but when they growl you better pay attention and twice Saddam didnt figure that out.

WingChun Lawyer
14th May 04, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Rigante
The reason I think they truly thought there was a problem with WMD was they had to know it would be a major problem if they invaded and no WMD were found. They obviously overestimated the intelligence info they had and that was their mistake.

As far as I know (newspapers and such), the US intelligence community was given orders to shut up and stop questioning Mr. Bush regarding the existence of those WMD, which they believed did not exist. Remember the african uranium issue, I believe one US ambassador reigned because of that - the intelligence community had repeatedly warned that that uranium purchase contract was a gross falsification, but still it was included in the state of the union speech.

Ronin
14th May 04, 01:41 PM
To put this in Bush's shoulders is naive, in the US, one man alone does NOT make policy.

WingChun Lawyer
14th May 04, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by ronin69
To put this in Bush's shoulders is naive, in the US, one man alone does NOT make policy.

I don´t blame Bush for anything, I blame his circle of advisors. Bush, IMHO, is a figurehead. I might be wrong, but that´s the impression I get.

And after 9/11, it seems that that circle does have the power to make policy. Hell, just look at Iraq.

Rigante
14th May 04, 02:47 PM
What I have problems buying into is the idea that George Bush, Tony Blair, et al sat down in a room and agreed to invading irag knowing there were no WMD were there. Do you think they thought we really wouldnt notice. These guys may not be the best and brightest but they arent that dumb. Logic would indicate they overrated the intelligence.

WingChun Lawyer
14th May 04, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Rigante
These guys may not be the best and brightest but they arent that dumb. Logic would indicate they overrated the intelligence.

I agree with your reasoning, but logic is not always the only factor in politics. Quite frankly, I believe Blair, Bush and company plainly ignored their intelligence reports and instead decided to invade Iraq hoping to find some evidence of WMD developing programs, NOT ready to use WMD, as they said in their speeches before the war.

If we are arguing about logic, it also doesn´t make sense to invade a country when you know their army has the capacity to poison your soldiers, and/or nuke them out of existence. And they did invade Iraq, and no WMD were deployed by the iraqi forces. IMHO, Mr. Rumsfeld was counting on that: unfortunately, there seems to be no conclusive evidence of WMD developing programs, as he probably hoped.

Rigante
14th May 04, 03:29 PM
We probably will never truly know. I would like us to get out as soon as we can prop some sort of stable situation for Iraqi the people. If not we could leave behind a Somalia type situation with various faction fighting each other and the regular folks getting killed or starved.

Next target - France (oops I spilled a secret :) )

Kiozz
14th May 04, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by Rigante
Do you think they thought we really wouldnt notice.

Still nothing was found and Bush, Blair and the rest are still sitting on their power chair.

(unless "W" has interest even in the dairy industry, I bet France is still safe)

WingChun Lawyer
14th May 04, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by Kiozz
Still nothing was found and Bush, Blair and the rest are still sitting on their power chair.

Yup. Bush and company, specially, enjoy an immense amount of slack in everything they do as long as they remember to put the magic words "war against terror" somewhere in the middle, and they know it. So using non existant WMD as an excuse was not such a huge political risk, as we see now (i.e. Bush has not been impeached).

Oh, and I kinda like Paris, so please don´t bomb Notre Dame.

Rigante
14th May 04, 04:38 PM
Its very difficult to impeach as was demonstrated with Bill Clinton. I do see it quite possible however that he could fail to be re-elected because of this issue. The only thing saving him is that Kerry is such an extreme liberal that even though of us who dont like Bush are reluctant to consider Kerry. Its too bad that Leiberman or another moderate is not in the running.

TheGodDamnMan
14th May 04, 07:33 PM
I think we should pull everyone out of the middle east. Nuke the whole site and turn the desert to glass. Send in people in radiation suits to drill for oil. Kill them all, let Alah sort them out.

punchingdummy
14th May 04, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by Rigante
The only thing saving him is that Kerry is such an extreme liberal that even though of us who dont like Bush are reluctant to consider Kerry.

...and there, in a nutshell, is the dilemna the swing voters this fall.

WingChun Lawyer
14th May 04, 09:04 PM
I am derailing this thread, but I´ll ask you guys anyway. Is Kerry that bad? What is the problem with him? I am honestly asking this because we don´t get much information about him here. As far as I can see, Bush is a horrible choice, but since I know nothing about Kerry I would like to know why conservatives such as you (Rigante and punchingdummy)are actually considering voting for Bush (specially since, AFAIK, many republican senators are indeed pissed off with the mess Mr. Bush is doing during his administration).

Mr_Mantis
14th May 04, 09:09 PM
They all suck WCL, the best person for the job is usually not an option. For instance, in the last presidential election, Alan Keys was by far the most intelligent and competent candidate. I think he would have made a good leader. But he didn't get the nod.

Politics suck, but I suppose it could be worse.

WingChun Lawyer
14th May 04, 09:15 PM
Thought the answer would be something along those lines, Mr. Mantis. My main source for US politics is Michael Moore (yeah, I know, I know), and he mostly tends to lump republicans and democrats in the same sack, that´s why I asked.

Rigante
14th May 04, 09:24 PM
Well I just downloaded and watched the video. I think it is a mistake this isnt shown all over the media. This is a good example of who and what we are facing. If people dont want to watch it fine, but to restict it as our media is doing is a bunch of crap. I guess the media doesnt want us to see how vicious and ugly the foe is. They would rather spend their time on the abuses in the military prisons. I was especially impressed with the courage of the murders in not even being willing to show their face while doing such a brutal execution. This will be remembered.

Rigante
14th May 04, 09:33 PM
I am also not impressed by the fact that moderators have said not to post links. So we can show porn, nasty streetfights and even links to criminal assaults videos but this cant be shown. This is the real world as it is. If you are afraid of kiddies seeing it, put it in the black belt.

Kiozz
14th May 04, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by Rigante
This is a good example of who and what we are facing.

In reality it isn't.

It simply shows who the real enemies should have been before someone decided to bring it to Iraq. Now that all the energies are spent trying to close this can of warms, very little is done on an actual "war on terrorism".

Rigante
14th May 04, 09:59 PM
This is the mentality of the people we are dealing with and will deal with in the future. Where are the cries of outrage from the Moslem community, where are their protest marches against a savage murder done while invoking the name of their god. Where are the cries of protest from all the peace activists. It is very silent, they can only whine about pictures of prison abuses.

Kiozz
14th May 04, 10:17 PM
Yet I'm sure an intelligent person like you understands the difference between a regular army and a militia/terrorist group/criminals.

While your army rappresents your nation, a terroristic group doesn't rappresent nothing past the individuals forming it.

What the US is dealing with at the moment is the resistance of iraqui people towards the occupation + the ethnic civil war that has started in the place once it got in a state of anarchy + pre-existing international terrorist groups that are presently left free to move without much pressure.

Rigante
14th May 04, 10:45 PM
But that still doesnt explain the silence from the Muslim community. If the name of Jesus was invoked on a video demonstrating a vicious murder you would here major protests from various christian groups like the Vatican etc.
In the U.S. today Kerry was lashing out about horrible the military prison pictures were. Where was his lashing out at the video of this beheading. I want to know where is the outrage in the Muslim community. Where is the outrage in so called "peace activitst" community.

Rigante
14th May 04, 11:02 PM
So what is the concensus here, stay in Iraq and try to establish some stability but then still be seen as evil infidel occupiers. The other option is leave and let it turn into another Somalia and let the common man and woman suffer.

Kiozz
14th May 04, 11:06 PM
The point is: who should the muslims and pacifists address their protests to? A terrorist group is not a country with a government nor a church. Also, it's an illegal association to start with.

the vatican would protest (probably) if some brutal murder was being committed by one of his ministers and comunities, but if I would commit a murder chanting Jesus, why would they care? Who am I and how am I bond to them?

The POW abuses where committed by the regular US army, so the bond to the Government is present. The slaughter was performed by a terrorist group and please tell me what one should tie them to. A good thing would be to see what W. Bush would do if it turns out that the slayers are Saudi. I bet he would spouse my way of thinking then, whereas now he seems pretty happy to have his people think in a "nuke the ragheads" sort of way.

Kiozz
14th May 04, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by Rigante
So what is the concensus here, stay in Iraq and try to establish some stability but then still be seen as evil infidel occupiers. The other option is leave and let it turn into another Somalia and let the common man and woman suffer.

Of course the first one.

Just at least TRYING to do something, and not just linger about untill the elections.

Oh, and really I don't see how a civil war wouldn't start anyway. I know what I'm talking about from experience.

Rigante
14th May 04, 11:39 PM
The prison abuses were conducted by members of the US Military but not by the US military itself but still apologies have been given all the way up to and including the President of the United States. The murder was committed my members of the Islamic Fundamentalist community, but where are the apologies from the leaders of the Islamic community. What do they stand to lose by publically condemning such activities unless they are actually in silent support of such activities.

TheGodDamnMan
15th May 04, 12:01 AM
Ok maybe we shouldn't nuke the middle east.

The Wastrel
15th May 04, 01:10 AM
For one thing, Rigante, Hizbollah has condemned the executioners.

For another, we are responsible for what is done in our name. So yes, the concern is very different, and justifiably so.

For another, seriously now...Where's the outrage? I really don't see the United States as a country that has ever been overflowing with sympathy for anyone else in the world. The answer is simple; everyone cares more about themselves. The only reason Abu Ghraib got the attention is that it implicates us. Furthermore, confronting it openly and frankly is something to be proud of. But let's please not get into whether or not it means we're a more virtuous people. We at least have the advantage of a relatively free media. Most moderate voices in the Arab world are living here.

For another, most of what we're "dealing with" in Iraq and in the Middle East, is just a lot of people who want to live a little better. Viewing the current operation in Iraq as simply a "war" on "evil" is unhelpful in the extreme.

And finally, Berg's murder is only like one of the biggest stories in the news right now. Pictures are appearing on all the major news organs. They have only refrained from showing the entire video. Beyond the very real guidelines that no doubt govern that sort of material, it would be crude in the extreme to broadcast that execution for everyone to run across.

And if you want to post a link, do it in the BBC.

Osiris
15th May 04, 01:17 AM
The video is easy enough to find. Do you REALLY need a link?

patfromlogan
15th May 04, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by Rigante
But that still doesnt explain the silence from the Muslim community..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/3706763.stm

Somehow BBC seems to find these voices better than American media.



From BBCArabic.com: This is a heinous crime and those who committed it are like a disease in our Islamic societies. It is absurd to compare this crime to the abuses in Abu Ghraib prison. Those who justify this crime have lost touch with reality and are only fooling themselves.
Hakim, Iraq

This is unbelievable human behaviour. I can't believe this is happening in 2004. As a Muslim I can only say, we are not allowed to touch an innocent civilian!
Imran Azim Butt, Doha, Qatar

This is deplorable. No religion, culture or society can defend this action. US administration's policies in the Middle East have created this savage hatred against all Americans though they have nothing to do with the policies of their government. I, with no reservations, condemn this act. I also condemn the US policies in the Middle East which have made this world a very unsafe place for an average hard working American.
Abdullah S. Jafari, Houston, Texas, USA

I am a Muslim and I am shocked at the killing of an innocent civilian. This is a very ugly murder and these people should be punished. The atrocities of some American soldiers in Iraqi jails doesn't give anybody an excuse to murder civilians.
Riad El Fadel Raad, Tripoli, Lebanon

From BBCArabic.com: Can these criminals really be Arabs and Muslims? Do they pray in our mosques and speak our language and suffer like we do? Their hearts have turned into stone. What we need is tolerance and wisdom, not blind revenge. Blood cannot be washed off with more blood.
Mohamed Bin Bandar, Mecca, Saudi Arabia

From BBCArabic.com: I totally reject this brutal crime against an innocent hostage, but I think the US has pushed the whole of the Middle East to the brink of disaster.
Abdullah Almasri, Cairo, Egypt

From BBCArabic.com: This does not represent our moral and religious values. These criminals are harming Islam and the image of Muslims all over the world. My heart goes out to Berg and his family.
Fadi Morestani, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia

From BBCArabic.com: This is a disgusting crime. We denounce this terrorist act perpetrated by sick minded people.
Zaid Diauddin, Iraq

From BBCArabic.com: This man "Zarqawi" is the ultimate criminal and represents only himself and the rogue mob that he leads, but the will of the people will prevail.
Abul Kassem, Musul, Iraq

From BBCArabic.com: I imagine the West will mobilise its mighty media machine to accuse Arabs and Muslims of terrorism, as usual. Just wait and see.
Nawaf Bin Mohamed, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia

patfromlogan
15th May 04, 10:36 AM
http://thomasmc.com/0513sh.htm

May 12 by Prof. Sam Hamod

The Beheading of Nick Berg in Iraq: A Muslim Perspective
All human beings must give their condolences to the family of Nick Berg who was ignominously beheaded. This is a heinous and brutal crime, and anyone who would do this is a sinner, an animal, a brute; if captured and proven guilty, those who perpetrated this crime should be punished to the full extent of the law.

If it was Muslims in Iraq, or wherever, because we actually don't know if he was beheaded in Iraq or elsewhere, we as Muslims condemn such behavior by whoever did it. Mr. Berg, from my understanding, was a person who was working on communications towers for the good of the Iraqi people; he was not a combatant or a mercenary who might have killed or hurt anyone. Islam makes clear, you do not kill innocent people. The Qur'an states, "To kill one innocent man or woman is to kill all of humanity; to save one human is to save all of humanity."

I say, "If it was Muslims" because there are many other players in Iraq at this time, and we can't be sure it was Muslims or Arabs. There are elements of the slaying that make it appear it may not have been Muslims. When Muslims execute a person, it must be after a proper trial, with credible witnesses, and the person who does the execution must say a prayer for the person being killed and to ask forgiveness for doing the killing. None of this was done. Also, a proper way of killing in this situation is to cut the throat in one swoop, not to hack at a person's neck. Muslims do not often cut off the head, but do execute by law, but not by revenge as in this case, though some Middle Easterners may do it by culture and tradition (that is still not allowed in Islam)

I say this because it may have been Muslims in Iraq who were taking revenge for the torture at Abu Ghraib as was alleged in the tape, but if it was, then they were acting as part of the culture of the middle east and not as Muslims. There is a long tradition, practiced by the Arabs (Muslims and Christians) and Jews of revenge for a misdeed against one's family or people; but this is against Islamic law.

There is another strange matter to this situation that troubles me. Why was Mr. Berg picked up by coalition forces and imprisoned, so much so that his family sued Donald Rumsfeld for his release and information on him. The military says it released him, but suddenly then, he disappeared becausse when people went to see him at the hotel he was allegedly registered at, he wasn't there and no one there knew of him. Very strange point number two is, why was Mr. Berg in an American issued orange jump suit--the kind Americans put prisoners in, when he was photographed and killed? The Iraqis or other Arabs would have had him in Arab clothing so as not to draw suspicion to him of his being a prisoner--not an orange jump suit. Also, the way the men were standing, and their size, as a person experienced in the middle east, most Arabs don't stand that way and most Iraqis are not that tall--the men stand more like Westerners of some sort, or even Israelis, but not like Arabs or Iraqis.

As to the Arabic, there are many Americans and Israelis who speak excellent Arabic. But, no Muslim would do that awkward "Allahu Ahkbar" --it was strained, it was not a natural voicing of that phrase, "God is great." I don't know who did this heinous crime, and it could have been bad Muslims or Arabs, but I am now wondering more and more who actually did it because of so many strange things surrounding this heinous deed.

But, it may also be that this was perpetrated by Israeli agents, who have been operating in Iraq since the American invasion and have been advisors and combatants for Blackwater, and for the U.S. military, especially in interrogation techniques. I do not know if it was Israelis, but I do remember in the early 1980s when the Mossad of Israel shot Israel's own ambassador to London to help justify the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. You may recall the general who led the brutal assault was none other than Ariel Sharon; the present brutal prime minister of Israel.

We must also ask the question intelligence agencies use, "Who would most benefit from this act?" In this case, if not Israel, then Bush and America to take the heat off of America for the brutality of the torture in Iraq and Guantanamo. This terrible act also took a lot of pressure off the U.S. Thus, it is also possible, since the killers were hooded, and thus we can't know who they were, that it could have been American counter-insurgency agents, CIA or mercenaries who did this heinous at a time when the glare of anger toward the U.S. was growing in the world. I don't know that this is true, but having worked in intelligence situations, I know it has been done in the past. Remember, also that the Nazis blew up the Bundestag to blame it on the Jews and others who they wanted to punish. America also used the boiler explosion on the U.S.S. Maine as a pretext for the Spanish American War by blaming it on Spain (even though it our intelligence knew it was simply a result of the boiler blowing up). We pushed into Viet Nam after our false report of the attack on one of our ships in the Bay of Tonkin. Our nation has not always been lilly-white in matters of truth when we wanted to take an action--we found ways to justify matters, or to lie to our advantage. We even allowed our own navy men to be killed on the U.S. S. Liberty in order to allow the Israelis freedom to do a sneak attack on Egypt --not allowing our own airplanes to go to the rescue of the Liberty when Israeli planes and torpedo boats were attacking it. To this dayh, the U.S. government has not allowed the Liberty case to be opened, or the men to be compensated, even though Admirals and others have asked for an open naval inquiry as to what happened and why President Johnson or someone in the Pentagon called back American planes that were going to the rescue of the Liberty. Israel has never been reprimanded for the attack, though clearly the ship had American flags, gave American signals and did not look like any Egyptian or Arab vessels. Unfortunately, our hands have been dirty before; it is possible they have dirtied themselves again for the sake of Bush's policies in the "war on terror"--and what better way than to turn the spotlight on the victims and make them "terrorists" through such an act. There are just too many questions here, to many odd things about this savage act.

With all these possibilities, and with the dirty politics and lies that have been told by so many in the world, the Americans, the Israelis, Al Qa'eda, angry Iraqis, just who did this is unclear. As I said, as a Muslim leader, I condemn this act by whoever did it; if it was an alleged "Muslim", then they are condemned to hell; but it may have been others from some other country who did it in order to put blame on the Muslims of Iraq. Remember also, many Israelis speak Arabic as well as Arabs themselves--so we can't take the Arabic on the tape as being from Arabs. We also know that some of the mercenaries and American military speak Arabic. The problem is that the criminals who killed Nick Berg were hooded, so we can't truly know who did this dirty deed.

At this point, we don't know who did this; nor do we know that the alleged Al Zarkawi's website is actually put forth by Al Zarkawi or any of his colleagues. This is all very murky and none of us will know for some time.

Sadly, President Bush said, "We'll hunt these people down." The problem is that he doesn't know who did it and it is my hope that he will not punish innocent people because we don't know, and may never know if this heinous act was perpetrated by Arabs, Muslims, Israelis or American counter-insurgency operatives or even mercenaries who work for Halliburton, Brown & Root or Bechtel or Blackwater Security.

I think we have to keep an open mind on exactly who did this; because, as I said earlier, we don't really know because there are so many angles to this deed and the people it hurts most are the family of Nick Berg, but America and Israel benefit from this the most because it makes the Arabs and Muslims (if they are blamed for it) look like savages and brutes. If these were Arabs or Muslims, then these men are brutes and should be punished if they can be captured and proven guilty of this terrible deed.

We all pray to God that the killers will be found and brought to justice and proper punishment for this inhuman, murderous deed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Prof. Sam Hamod is the former Director of The Islamic Center of Washington, DC; editor of 3rd World News (DC); he was born and raised in Gary, Indiana.

patfromlogan
15th May 04, 10:54 AM
This get weirder and weirder:

"AP was going to release a story that Nick Berg was investigated by the FBI 2 years ago because he gave his password for his computer account at his university to terrorist mastermind Zacharias Moussaoui."-- off an internet blog (http://wizbangblog.com/archives/002476.php)


http://us.cnn.com/2004/US/Northeast/05/13/berg.encounter/
Government sources told CNN that the encounter involved an acquaintance of Zacarias Moussaoui -- the only person publicly charged in the United States in connection with the September 11, 2001, terror attacks.

According to Berg, his son was taking a course a few years ago at a remote campus of the University of Oklahoma near an airport. He described how on one particular day, his son met "some terrorist people -- who no one knew were terrorists at the time."

At one point during the bus ride, Berg said, the man sitting next to his son asked if he could use Nick's laptop computer.

"It turned out this guy was a terrorist and that he, you know, used my son's e-mail, amongst many other people's e-mail who he did the same thing to," Berg [daddy berg] said.

Government sources said Berg gave the man his password, which was later used by Moussaoui, the sources said.

more at http://wizbangblog.com/archives/002476.php


Gee, he's gives the terrorists his password and two years later they kill him, nothing strange there!! I also heard that he was intelligence, Israeli probably.

patfromlogan
15th May 04, 11:12 AM
Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is the one who murdered Berg. Or just like the Tonkin Bay (lie that got US going in Vietnam), the bombing of the Maine (lie that got US going in Spanish/Am War) and the Sinking of the Lusitania (lie that got the US going into WWl - more info on that: http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig3/dwyer3.html) this WAS done by the CIA. Who knows?


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39840000/jpg/_39840103_zarqawi_ap203b.jpg

Rigante
15th May 04, 02:02 PM
Maybe we need to reinstate R & D into the neutron bomb. That way if and when we need to fry these animals on a wholesale basis at least we wouldnt leave lots of radioactive waste to deal with. Hey at least we would be environmentally friendly!;)

patfromlogan
15th May 04, 07:26 PM
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39840000/jpg/_39840103_zarqawi_ap203b.jpg

DOES NOT EQUAL

http://www.un.org/Photos/iraq/187400.jpg


Zarqawi isn't Iraqi, not that most Americans would know the difference. (I watch CNN but I'm not sure I can tell you
The difference in Iraq and Iran. But I know Jesus and I talk to God And I remember this from when I was young
Faith hope and love are some good things he gave us
And the greatest is love).

By the way Rigante, have you read this thread? Are you among the 'nuke the motherfuckers' or 'bomb 'em back to the stone age' group?

Rigante
15th May 04, 09:41 PM
We should use anything it takes to facilitate these bastards meeting their God. If nuclear devices are what's necessary then so be it. They wouldnt hesitate to use them on us if they were given half a chance.

Stick
15th May 04, 09:52 PM
Oh good fuckinig grief.

Both of you.

fatal touchy
16th May 04, 12:27 AM
they can put a man on the moon surly they can make a bomb that only goes for terrorists

and why can they give each man a suit thats is bullet proof and bomb proof
like the weapons on matrix 3 only better

Choke
16th May 04, 12:40 AM
Nukes deter terrorism?

"Thar r terror cells in Miami! NUKE EM!!!!!!11"

patfromlogan
16th May 04, 10:33 AM
United States of America was found guilty of terrorism in 1986. The Nicaraguan Government went to the World Court, which issued a judgment in their favor condemning the U.S. for unlawful use of force. It ordering the U.S. to desist and pay substantial reparations. The U.S. dismissed the court judgment, responding with an immediate escalation of the attacks. So Nicaragua then went to the Security Council, which passed a resolution calling on states to observe international law. The U.S. vetoed it. They went to the General Assembly, where they got a similar resolution that passed near–unanimously, which the U.S. and Israel opposed two years in a row.

Let's bomb DC!

Rigante
16th May 04, 01:28 PM
Pat, your terrorist friends and buddies have already bombed D.C. Does Sept 11 ring a bell?

patfromlogan
16th May 04, 10:13 PM
Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV
And you think you're so clever and classless and free
But you're still fucking peasants as far as I can see
A working class hero is something to be
A working class hero is something to be

There's room at the top they are telling you still
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
If you want to be like the folks on the hill
-- John Lennon

Stick
16th May 04, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by patfromlogan
Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV
And you think you're so clever and classless and free
But you're still fucking peasants as far as I can see
A working class hero is something to be
A working class hero is something to be

There's room at the top they are telling you still
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
If you want to be like the folks on the hill
-- John Lennon

As opposed to those honorable communists who only killed after careful deliberation and the complete assurance that there was no other- fuck it man I can't even be sarcastic to that.

This peasant's fine, thanks.

patfromlogan
16th May 04, 11:37 PM
???

patfromlogan
16th May 04, 11:47 PM
Anyway, the more interesting thing was that Berg has those previous ties with the terrorists. His father's rap sounds like idiotic bullshit. Berg himself sounds like a spook. What gives with him anyway? He does have a Jewish name and was Zarqawi more eager to slice him after looking in his pants or what? Also the lack of Muslim outrage does seem limited to US media coverage, though I hear that Hezbollah and Hamas issued strongly worded condemnations. Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates alos have joined in criticizing it.

By the way, the above is me being serious.
the below is me pasting a song (it means I'm a commie, or have anal sex or something I'm sure).

Donovan - UNIVERSAL SOLDIER Lyrics by Buffy St. Marie

He's five feet two and he's six feet four
He fights with missiles and with spears
He's all of 31 and he's only 17
He's been a soldier for a thousand years

He's a Catholic, a Hindu, an athiest, a Jain,
a Buddhist and a Baptist and a Jew
and he knows he shouldn't kill
and he knows he always will
kill you for me my friend and me for you

And he's fighting for Canada,
he's fighting for France,
he's fighting for the USA,
and he's fighting for the Russians
and he's fighting for Japan,
and he thinks we'll put an end to war this way

And he's fighting for Democracy
and fighting for the Reds
He says it's for the peace of all
He's the one who must decide
who's to live and who's to die
and he never sees the writing on the walls

But without him how would Hitler have
condemned him at Dachau
Without him Caesar would have stood alone
He's the one who gives his body
as a weapon to a war
and without him all this killing can't go on

Rigante
17th May 04, 09:22 AM
Isnt it ironic that you present yourself as an advocate for peace and rightousness and then in the same breath advocate bombing a city which I am sure has lots of little kiddies holding flowers? Well at least you have shown your true colors.

patfromlogan
17th May 04, 09:25 AM
Yes, Rigante you have understood completely everything I have written. I am a secret war monger who wants to bomb DC. :rolleyes:

Ronin
17th May 04, 09:36 AM
Maybe only those that have served and been EXPOSED to the horrors of war, should be allowed to voice an opinion on WAR...

WingChun Lawyer
17th May 04, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by ronin69
Maybe only those that have served and been EXPOSED to the horrors of war, should be allowed to voice an opinion on WAR...

Ronin, that sounds fair for ancient Greece, but it doesn´t seem resonable at all in a present day democracy. Although giving experienced soldiers a more active voice in matters of war seems only reasonable to me, of course.

Ronin
17th May 04, 09:45 AM
Let me put it this way:
How many dead bodies have you seen?
How many blown up and shot to pieces and chared remains of children have you seen?
How many women's bodies have you seen dismembered?

War is hell, and that is NOT an understatment.
It MUST be avoided unless there is NO OTHER choice, and I mean ZERO, NADA, NEYT, NOTHING whatsoever.

WingChun Lawyer
17th May 04, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by ronin69
War is hell, and that is NOT an understatment.
It MUST be avoided unless there is NO OTHER choice, and I mean ZERO, NADA, NEYT, NOTHING whatsoever.

No arguments here. But keeping such decisions only in the hands of the military is inviting disaster: in fact, keeping such decisions in the hands of a few people, military or not, is inviting disaster, in my opinion. Both my country and yours (Portugal, I mean) have been subject to military dictatorships, and we know it is not pretty - the military is not above commiting mistakes and abusing their power, certainly no more than the civil government.

Any group of people tend to abuse their power if there are no checks and balances to prevent them from abusing it. So I believe the decision of whether or not to go to war should also be subject to the system of checks and balances which constitutes the basis of a democracy, same as any governmental decision - and free speech is one of those systems of control.

Rigante
17th May 04, 11:17 AM
Thats ok Pat, we will all just pretend we didnt see your mask slip!:D

Freddy
17th May 04, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by ronin69
Let me put it this way:
How many dead bodies have you seen?
How many blown up and shot to pieces and chared remains of children have you seen?
How many women's bodies have you seen dismembered?

War is hell, and that is NOT an understatment.
It MUST be avoided unless there is NO OTHER choice, and I mean ZERO, NADA, NEYT, NOTHING whatsoever.

For those who dont know. Ronin69 is speaking from personal experience. He has been in the Balkins/Bosnia as a soldier. And had first hand account of seeing multilated bodies and atrocities commited. You have to give him respect for comming out and saying it as it really is.

Ronin
17th May 04, 12:34 PM
Look, I just hear and see too many people saying shit about stuff they know NOTHING about, and I am NOT just talking about this board.
War is and always must be, the LAST option.
Life is to precious, and children are the only hope for a future better than what we have now.
They must be taught tolerance, love and understanding, NEVER violence and hatered.

Yes, sometimes war is the only option and yes, sometimes only violence can end a situation, but they should never come easy to us.

Mr_Mantis
17th May 04, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by ronin69
...and children are the only hope for a future better than what we have now.
They must be taught tolerance, love and understanding, NEVER violence and hatered.



In that case, we're fucked.

Ronin
17th May 04, 12:48 PM
No, were not, if by "we" you mean the future, if by "we" you mean "us", yeah, you're right.

Rigante
17th May 04, 01:02 PM
I agree try to not teach violence and hatred. However anger etc are natural emotions. Many religions have to tried to suppress those emotions with minimal success.Also some religious factions and philosphies encourage hatred of "the other" Another problem is dealing with the psycopathic personalities that just dont give a shit about people. I like the old addage "walk softly and carry a big stick". Nowdays we need a big frikken stick.

Freddy
17th May 04, 01:26 PM
It is mainly adults that corrupt children. They learn hate, racism, violence etc. from us.

Ronin
17th May 04, 01:34 PM
Religion has always been a convient excuse, very seldom has it been the true reason.
But, lets not get into that. :)

Rigante
17th May 04, 03:56 PM
An interesting note I got from one of my collegues today. This person is a very highly skilled and well thought of professional:

(edit)

It is official, I have my orders, and will be leaving for (edited). We will train there for (edited)prior to leaving for Iraq. My orders say (edit) days total training plus deployment , so it looks like I will be gone for a while. I am writing all this once, to you, in hopes that you can send it out to all the providers, and the folks at (edited ). Obviously I will be lonely and bored, and would love to hear from anyone interested in writing. I would appreciate any e-mail, snail mail and especially prayers, not only for me, but for my family specifically.

I don't want anyone to feel sorry for me. I joined the military on my own free will and truly am proud of the role I play in my unit. I have cried a million tears, along with my family. Luckily I have a great husband, and wonderful kids, and we will get through it.

Whether or not the US military belongs in Iraq is out of my control. I am acting on the orders of a higher power, and will support that. I only ask that people that are against this war condemn the politics and the bigger picture, and not the individual soldiers. Be educated. Learn what is really going on in the Middle East, and don't believe everything you see on CNN.

Everyone that has been to Iraq say the people are wonderful, happy and loving, and just want to lead normal lives like you and I. 90% of them want us to stay and help improve their governance, and their current situations. The media can turn this in to so much more.

Please keep in touch, and save me a job. I will be back in no time!


Love,

(edit)

Ronin
18th May 04, 07:07 AM
Never be anthing BUT supportive of "our troops", they do NOT make polices, they do their job.
And a few bad apples are just that, a FEW bad apples.
Hope he comes back safe and sound.

WingChun Lawyer
18th May 04, 09:06 AM
Thanks for sharing that, Rigante. And, in fact, I actually believe the part where she says 90% of the iraqis support the american troops and appreciate their work in reconstructing iraq, same as I believe an immense percentage of those soldiers are decent people just doing their job and upholding their values.

Quite frankly, I tend to blame people at the top for most of the abuses we have seen - both for (probably, as denounced by the media) issuing direct orders, as for turning a blind eye when the orders were not clear but the purpose was.

sin_dios
19th May 04, 02:33 AM
i didnt read evry goddam post on this thread, but i just want to say that yeas its obviously horrific when anybody is beheaded. and i dont sympathize with the killers.
but this thread is full of bullshit hallucinations.
there is no evidance that the went to iraq to liberate anything or anyone.
and yes american bussiness contractors are robbing iraq, they have a tax free green light to carve someone elses country and make bucks.
there is no catch 22 about america helping the world but interfewring too much, no one but some americans and brits think that.
wing chun lwayer you are in a fantasy world if you think 90% of iraquis support the american invasion.
all evidance is to the contrary.
i m not liberal or conservative, these are just facts. america invaded and laid to waste.
we cant say if the torture is this bad or that bas-we dont know.
i m not gonna say my opinions about what should, shouldve happen there, but these are facts.
many at mcdojo who can think very clearly about most topics are in a world of blindness whei tcomes to "america"

Stick
19th May 04, 02:48 AM
Cute, kid.

As for the 90% thing, don't know for sure, but my friend just got back from his tour in Iraq and really liked the people there and definatly had the feeling they liked him. Granted he got back months before the whole prisoner abuse thing broke.

Also, you write like a 5th grader.

WingChun Lawyer
19th May 04, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by Dai-Tenshi
As for the 90% thing, don't know for sure, but my friend just got back from his tour in Iraq and really liked the people there and definatly had the feeling they liked him. Granted he got back months before the whole prisoner abuse thing broke.

Let me put it that way: if my country was being run by a bloody dictator, I would like it if someone got us rid of him. Of course, I would like the liberators only as long as they avoided unnecessary killings, kept violence to a minimum, didn´t let the country slide into chaos, and worked to bring my country its autonomy back, while at the same time avoiding just exploiting my country´s natural resources, as those belong to me and my fellow countrymen.

See what´s the problem here? I don´t think the USA is respecting the two last conditions (working to bring Iraq autonomy, avoiding exploiting its natural resources). This, however, can hardly be blamed on the soldiers, so yes, I believe that many Iraqis could probably respect the soldiers and their work there, at least during the first months of occupation.

Of course, this scenario was changed by the torture pictures – those CAN be blamed on the soldiers, at least for the average man on the street, and they present a much more tempting and easy target than Rumsfeld or Bush. So I stand corrected: at the moment, I wouldn´t say 90% of the Iraqi population appreciates the US presence there. This might have been the case in the first few months of occupation, but the occupation has endured too long, and the Americans are probably looking more and more brutal and cruel with every passing day to the average Iraqi, specially if we consider the tortures (whose extent we don´t even know, but I wouldn´t be surprised if many Iraqis actually knew what was happening inside US controlled prisons).

So, IMHO, while many Iraqis still appreciate the soldier´s presence there, those are becoming fewer in number every day the USA stays there, and their numbers were certainly reduced drastically after the publication of the pictures.

This still doesn´t change the fact that most soldiers are probably decent people. But I am afraid their efforts are being appreciated less with every passing day by the Iraqis. It is never nice to have your country run by foreigners.

Kiozz
19th May 04, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
It is never nice to have your country run by foreigners.

That's the bottom line.

90%-60% or whatever don't mean crap. It's not the guy off the street that's resisting "occupation" anyway, let's get real.

punchingdummy
19th May 04, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by sin_dios
i didnt read evry goddam post on this thread, but i just want to say that yeas its obviously horrific when anybody is beheaded. and i dont sympathize with the killers.
but this thread is full of bullshit hallucinations.
there is no evidance that the went to iraq to liberate anything or anyone.
and yes american bussiness contractors are robbing iraq, they have a tax free green light to carve someone elses country and make bucks.
there is no catch 22 about america helping the world but interfewring too much, no one but some americans and brits think that.
wing chun lwayer you are in a fantasy world if you think 90% of iraquis support the american invasion.
all evidance is to the contrary.
i m not liberal or conservative, these are just facts. america invaded and laid to waste.
we cant say if the torture is this bad or that bas-we dont know.
i m not gonna say my opinions about what should, shouldve happen there, but these are facts.
many at mcdojo who can think very clearly about most topics are in a world of blindness whei tcomes to "america"

As much as you want to call them facts, they are your opinions.

sin_dios
19th May 04, 02:58 PM
yes i write like a 5th grader and a fith grader from almost any counrty in the world would laugh at the opinions in this thread.
and i realy dont think the number of bombs dropped on their targets, the effects of sanctions, world opinion polls for the last 50 years and international news reports from iraq over the last 6 months, the falluja masacres or the basic points of agrrements virtually the whole world have made clear about the recent invasion of iraq are the result of my opinion.
they involve other poeples opinions to be sure, but the existence and of these mass sentiments is fact.

the other stuff being said just shows the inabilty of intelligent people to apply common sense&critical thinking to this subject.
reports of hospitality toward an occupying soldier with a gun is not admissable evidence, in fact its almost off topic.

individual bussiness men and soldiers being nice has nothing to do with anything and their relevance is 0.
to compare ants and elephants like that shows no abilty to comprehand large social procceses trends and events.

the tax situation and contract awarding in itaq is fact, not my opinion.
go look up who wins the contracts. wht are the terms like?
are unions illegal in iraq?
the answers are public. facts.
not my opinion.
im just trying to cut through the nice faery tale version that some americans ( i have nothing against americans, im american) and yes im sorry its pretty much just us americans, are holding onto, despite all evidence.

Deluxe247
19th May 04, 03:35 PM
Its people like you that make me wonder why it is im protecting your sorry ass late at night when i cant sleep. Good thing the rest of america isnt living in the "fairy tale" that you claim.

Mr_Mantis
18th June 04, 01:04 PM
Now Al Qeda beheaded Paul Marshall Johnson in Saudi Arabia.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20040618/ts_nm/security_saudi_dc


DUBAI (Reuters) - Al Qaeda militants said they beheaded a U.S. engineer they had held hostage in Saudi Arabia since last week and displayed his severed head in pictures posted on an Islamist Web site Friday.
Al Qaeda had said the Saudi government had until Friday to free jailed militants or it would kill Paul Marshall Johnson.

http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20040618/amdf601317.jpg

"As we promised the mujahideen we have beheaded the American hostage Paul Marshall after the deadline that the mujahideen gave to the tyrannical Saudi government passed," a statement signed by the Organization of al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula said on al Islah Web site.

The Web site showed pictures of what appeared to be Johnson's severed head resting on his body.

Johnson, an employee of U.S. defense contractor Lockheed Martin, was the first Westerner to be kidnapped in a wave of militant attacks in the kingdom that began more than a year ago.

Al Qaeda said it carried out the attacks and kidnapping to avenge U.S. abuse of Muslim prisoners. Tuesday, the group released a video on a Web site showing a blindfolded Johnson.

Saudi officials had said the kingdom would not give in to the group's demands.

Johnson's kidnapping, which follows a spate of suicide bombings and shootings in the past six weeks, has raised the stakes in al Qaeda's war against the Saudi government.

Osiris
18th June 04, 01:22 PM
Man...

LOVED2BLOVED
18th June 04, 03:20 PM
fuck them , fuck them all, fucking bastards.

KageReaper
18th June 04, 04:57 PM
I knew it was coming...guess the family doesn't get the movie ending where the police or specops come through the day and save the day. Damn it.

Mr_Mantis
18th June 04, 05:05 PM
Where is David Bannon when you need him?