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WingChun Lawyer
29th April 04, 08:27 AM
Saw this on the newspaper today. Did anyone see that show?

Supposedly there is a video on which US soldiers torture iraqi prisoners, but I didn´t find any references on google. I would like to know if the video is for real, if anyone saw it. Thanks.

DANINJA
29th April 04, 08:43 AM
read the following news report:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3669331.stm

DANINJA
29th April 04, 09:05 AM
Also british troops seem to be doing simialr things:

Photos indicate torture and sexual abuse by British troops in Iraq
By Paul Mitchell
4 June 2003

Staff in a British photo-processing shop have handed-over photographs to the police that indicate British troops tortured and sexually abused Iraqi prisoners of war.

One picture taken in a warehouse shows a man stripped to the waist, while suspended from a rope attached to a forklift truck. A soldier driving the truck is apparently laughing at the man’s plight.

Another picture seems to show an Iraqi man being forced to perform oral sex on a (white) man.

A third picture shows two Iraqis apparently being forced to perform anal sex. A fourth picture shows two naked Iraqis cowering on the ground.

Amnesty International spokeswoman Lesley Warner said if the photos “are true then this is clearly a violation of the Geneva Convention, which absolutely prohibits any torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.”

An assistant in a photo processing shop in Tamworth, Staffordshire, Kelly Tilford (22), uncovered the photographs when checking that a film handed in by a soldier had developed properly. She said, “I felt sick when I looked at the pictures. They were grim. I just felt awful.... I immediately realised something terribly wrong had happened and something had to be done about it. I started shaking and was panicking.”

Officers from the Special Investigation Branch (SIB) of the Royal Military Police have arrested Gary Bartlam, a private in the First Battalion of the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers who brought the film in to the Max Spielman’s photo-processing shop last week. Bartlam was on leave from the regiment presently stationed in Iraq’s second city Basra and the port of Umm Qasr. The detention facility at Umm Qasr now holds about 500 detainees—down from the 6,000 it held after the fall of Baghdad. The SIB has not said where Bartlam’s pictures were taken, nor the function of his unit.

At the height of the aggression in Iraq, British Army Chief of Staff, General Sir Mike Jackson praised the Fusiliers as a “thoroughly competent and well-organised infantry battalion”. He regrets that the “good name of the British Army appears to have been tarnished by a few ill-disciplined and unprofessional soldiers”.

The “good name” of the British Army was a key component in Prime Minister Tony Blair’s campaign to try and get the British public to accept the war in Iraq. It was promoted as the most professional and humanitarian force in the world dedicated to liberating people from despotic regimes. Stuart Crawford, a retired lieutenant colonel in the Fourth Royal Tank Regiment, told the Daily Telegraph’s Olga Craig, “Britain and other European nations have imperial traditions. As a result, British troops have been inculcated with the ethos and tradition of colonial policing, where small numbers of men would have close contact on a daily basis with local populations.”

It did not take long for the real “ethos and tradition of colonial policing” of depravity and brutality to be revealed.

A few days before details of Bartlam’s alleged war crimes emerged, it was reported that Lieutenant Colonel Timothy Collins, commanding officer of the First Battalion of the Royal Irish Regiment, was under investigation for alleged mistreatment of civilians in Iraq. Ayoub Younis Nasser, an Iraqi Ba’ath Party official and former headmaster of a school in Rumailah near Basra, claims that he was pistol-whipped, beaten and threatened with a mock execution by Collins. Nasser said, “They put our faces towards the wall, me and my son. I heard Colonel Collins telling a soldier to ’kill them’. Then I heard the soldier cock his gun.”

A US Army Major Re Biastre of the 402 Civil Affairs Battalion has also accused Collins of mistreating civilians, but the veracity of his claims are disputed as he was not present when the acts he lists were said to have happened and is said to have a personal grudge against Collins who severely and very publicly reprimanded him on one occasion.

What is not in doubt is that Collins helped set the tone for the type of brutal treatment of Iraqis that is now being alleged to have occurred. He was glorified as a hero by the British media in March after he delivered a pre-battle oration to 800 troops at Fort Blair Mayne camp in Kuwait during which he warned, “The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his nemesis and that we are bringing about his rightful destruction. There are many regional commanders who have stains on their souls and they are stoking the fires of hell for Saddam. He and his forces will be destroyed by this coalition for what they have done. As they die they will know their deeds have brought them to this place. Show them no pity.”

It is no wonder then that Bartlam and his unit may have felt no pity towards their captives and thought they could get away with filming their depraved acts with impunity. Bartlam’s mother sensed who was really to blame for her son’s predicament when she told reporters, “He does not belong to us any more. The army is his mother. It’s the army which looks after him. We have not been able to contact him and we know nothing about what’s happened to him, so we’re saying nothing.”

The Ministry of Defence has downplayed the significance of the Bartlam photos saying, “Usually there is a flurry of allegations in the wake of a conflict or a highly publicised case like this one. That is the pattern.”

The Royal Irish Regiment was formed in July 1992 from the discredited Ulster Defence Regiment and prides itself on its anti-terrorism expertise. It is the subject of an inquiry into allegations of bullying and abuse of recruits. The inquiry is charged with investigating the death of teenage soldier Paul Cochrane who was found shot dead in 2001 at the regiment’s Drumadd barracks in Northern Ireland. But the Ministry of Defence claims it will also tackle issues about the “wider military culture” in the regiment. Paul’s father Billy emphasised that he had no faith in the inquiry, saying “I don’t trust these people.”

Robert Peterson, a military lawyer said his law firm deals with several cases every month from soldiers especially recruits who say they were assaulted or abused and noted the culture of bullying and brutality “can easily spill over into a war situation.”

SamHarber
29th April 04, 09:11 AM
Daninja - that was from last year. As far as I know, they were cleared on those allegations.

WingChun Lawyer
29th April 04, 09:19 AM
Thanks Daninja, that link seems to refer to the video I mentioned.

Jolly_Roger
29th April 04, 10:47 AM
Sheesh, sure it's a lucky thing the charges are cleared.
Now, let's raze Najaf to the ground, and continue defiling holy sites!

SamHarber
29th April 04, 11:34 AM
Charges against the British that was.... its the US forces who seem a little trigger happy.

Kempocos
29th April 04, 12:12 PM
While at WAR troops are shooting ........ amazing. They declared war on the US 17 years ago , we finally admit it and join in and we are at fault. I agree with the following

THE ROBIN WILLIAMS PEACE PLAN

This may very well be the best thought out item we have read since 9/11/01.
Leave it to Robin Williams to come up with the perfect plan ... what we need now is for our UN Ambassador to stand up and repeat this message.

I see a lot of people yelling for peace but I have not heard of a plan for peace. So, here's one plan.

1. The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past &present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, Noriega, Milosovich and the rest of those good ol' boys: We will never "interfere" again.

2. We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No one sneaking through holes in the fence.

3. All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of who or where they are. France would welcome them.


4. All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days unless given a special permit. No one from a terrorist nation would be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself and don't hide hereers or 7-11 cashiers.

5. No "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a "D" (for "deport") and it's back home baby.

6. The US will make a strong effort to become self-sufficient energy wise. This will include developing non-polluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while.

7. Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go some place else. They can go somewhere else to sell their production. (About a week of the wells filling up the storage sites would be enough.)

8. If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not "interfere." They can pray to Allah or whomever for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides, most of what we give them is stolen or given to the Army. The people who need it most get very little, if anything.

9. Ship the UN Headquarters to an isolated island some place. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, the building would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

10. All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer. The language we speak is ENGLISH...
Now, ain't that a winner of a plan.
The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying "Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses." She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, "You want a piece of me?"

If you agree with the above forward it to friends.

Amen Brother.............

Jolly_Roger
29th April 04, 12:22 PM
A plan by a comedian...sounds a surefire winner in this year's US election!

Freddy
29th April 04, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Kempocos

1. The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past &present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, Noriega, Milosovich and the rest of those good ol' boys: We will never "interfere" again.


Hey they forgot Pinochet, Shah of Iran, and now Khadafy.




Originally posted by Kempocos


2. We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No one sneaking through holes in the fence.


Hey they forget Guam, Micronesia and Japan. And a few other places nobody wants to remember

Originally posted by Kempocos


3. All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of who or where they are. France would welcome them.



Canada sure could use more people. We are not at replacement level.
As for Mexicans they are just going back home.

Freddy
29th April 04, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Kempocos


4. All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days unless given a special permit. No one from a terrorist nation would be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself and don't hide hereers or 7-11 cashiers.


How about not making enemies. Its easier to do.


Originally posted by Kempocos



7. Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go some place else. They can go somewhere else to sell their production. (About a week of the wells filling up the storage sites would be enough.)


I think they do well selling oil to Europe and Asia.


Originally posted by Kempocos



8. If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not "interfere." They can pray to Allah or whomever for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides, most of what we give them is stolen or given to the Army. The people who need it most get very little, if anything.


Too bad the U.S. never gave out alot to begin with.
We let Canada and other nations put up the bulk for famine and natural catastrophe as THEY HAVE ALWAYS DONE.:)

Freddy
29th April 04, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by Kempocos


10. All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer. The language we speak is ENGLISH...
Now, ain't that a winner of a plan.
The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying "Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses." She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, "You want a piece of me?"



Ugly Americans? More like unthinking Americans.
The Statue of Liberty is saying "Its time to wake up and smell the coffee".:eek: :rolleyes: :)

Dralion
29th April 04, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by Freddy
How about not making enemies. Its easier to do.

It may be, but is it profitable?

The Wastrel
29th April 04, 09:48 PM
It's true...Everyone is stupid.

Nihilanthic
30th April 04, 12:46 AM
I don't get it. We beat iraqis in prison and everyone acts up, we torture our own children and nobody gives a fuck.

God bless america. We'll save the world, but not our own fucking children.

Stold3
30th April 04, 12:54 AM
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/ / "\______/" / / | |
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/ | | / | \
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Nihilanthic
30th April 04, 01:10 AM
Wow, a fucking frog just made everyone ignore my post at the end of page one.

thanks a lot!

Kungfoolss
30th April 04, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
Saw this on the newspaper today. Did anyone see that show?

Supposedly there is a video on which US soldiers torture iraqi prisoners, but I didn´t find any references on google. I would like to know if the video is for real, if anyone saw it. Thanks.

I saw the pictures on the morning shows, I couldn't help but think, "The martial artists are at it again. Bunch of sick bastards."

I believe one of the American soldiers was asian.

Stold3
30th April 04, 01:25 AM
Originally posted by Nihilanthic
I don't get it. We beat iraqis in prison and everyone acts up, we torture our own children and nobody gives a fuck.

God bless america. We'll save the world, but not our own fucking children.

Happy?

Kungfoolss
30th April 04, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by Kungfoolss
I saw the pictures on the morning shows, I couldn't help but think, "The martial artists are at it again. Bunch of sick bastards."


Know what I mean folks? ->

http://www.estripes.com/photos/21837_42610729b.jpg

http://www.estripes.com/photos/21837_42610846b.jpg

Nihilanthic
30th April 04, 02:40 AM
Stold3

http://www.webdiva.org/fox

No. PM me if you want more info on how widespread it is, how much the govt ignores it, how much money those assholes make duping parents into it (its cult like), and how many children it fucked up.

I've spoken to survivors from those kind of 'treatment' institutions... ranging from a 12 year old boy terrified I "liked little boys" (imagine what happened to him, will you?) to a 40 year old woman with a kid as old as me (40's). Hell, check this place out. http://www.isaccorp.com/index.html Seems they're the bullshido of "McTreatment" going on. And if you wanna see the crap they do, check out www.thestraights.com, or pm me.

Same kind of shit, and it is just for money, just much much worse for the people that buy into it. Good ole orwellian brainwashing, abuse, torture... you name it, they've done it!

No, I'm not your usual activist. I talk about things we can change and actually occur in our borders. Hey, Kungfools, wanna bother looking out for kids that ARE born? Feel free!

DANINJA
30th April 04, 03:47 AM
there are reports that a prisoner was raped:

Abuse Of Iraqi POWs By GIs Probed

April 29, 2004


Army Probes POW Abuse


Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt tells Dan Rather he is "appalled" by what happened in a Baghdad prison. (Photo: CBS/60 Minutes II)


"If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt


Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick, one of the soldiers now facing court martial, described to Rather what he saw in the Iraqi prison. (Photo: Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick )



(CBS) Last month, the U.S. Army announced 17 soldiers in Iraq, including a brigadier general, had been removed from duty after charges of mistreating Iraqi prisoners.

But the details of what happened have been kept secret, until now.

It turns out photographs surfaced showing American soldiers abusing and humiliating Iraqis being held at a prison near Baghdad. The Army investigated, and issued a scathing report.

Now, an Army general and her command staff may face the end of long military careers. And six soldiers are facing court martial in Iraq -- and possible prison time.
Correspondent Dan Rather talks to one of those soldiers. And, for the first time, 60 Minutes II will show some of the pictures that led to the Army investigation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to the U.S. Army, one Iraqi prisoner was told to stand on a box with his head covered, wires attached to his hands. He was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted.

It was this picture, and dozens of others, that prompted an investigation by the U.S. Army. On Tuesday, 60 Minutes II asked Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of coalition operations in Iraq, what went wrong.

“Frankly, I think all of us are disappointed by the actions of the few,” says Kimmitt. “Every day, we love our soldiers, but frankly, some days we're not always proud of our soldiers."

For decades under Saddam Hussein, many prisoners who were taken to the Abu Ghraib prison never came out. It was the centerpiece of Saddam’s empire of fear, and those prisoners who did make it out told nightmarish tales of torture beyond imagining – and executions without reason.

60 Minutes II talked about the prison and shared pictures of what Americans did there with two men who have extensive interrogation experience: Former Marine Lt. Col. Bill Cowan and former CIA Bureau Chief Bob Baer.

"I visited Abu Ghraib a couple of days after it was liberated. It was the most awful sight I've ever seen. I said, ‘If there's ever a reason to get rid of Saddam Hussein, it's because of Abu Ghraib,'” says Baer. “There were bodies that were eaten by dogs, torture. You know, electrodes coming out of the walls. It was an awful place."

"We went into Iraq to stop things like this from happening, and indeed, here they are happening under our tutelage,” says Cowan.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It was American soldiers serving as military police at Abu Ghraib who took these pictures. The investigation started when one soldier got them from a friend, and gave them to his commanders. 60 Minutes II has a dozen of these pictures, and there are many more – pictures that show Americans, men and women in military uniforms, posing with naked Iraqi prisoners.

There are shots of the prisoners stacked in a pyramid, one with a slur written on his skin in English.

In some, the male prisoners are positioned to simulate sex with each other. And in most of the pictures, the Americans are laughing, posing, pointing, or giving the camera a thumbs-up.

60 Minutes II was only able to contact one of the soldiers facing charges. But the Army says they are all in Iraq, awaiting court martial.

"What can the Army say specifically to Iraqis and others who are going to see this and take it personally," Rather asked Kimmitt, in an interview conducted by satellite from Baghdad.

"The first thing I’d say is we’re appalled as well. These are our fellow soldiers. These are the people we work with every day, and they represent us. They wear the same uniform as us, and they let their fellow soldiers down,” says Kimmitt.

“Our soldiers could be taken prisoner as well. And we expect our soldiers to be treated well by the adversary, by the enemy. And if we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect … We can't ask that other nations to that to our soldiers as well."

“So what would I tell the people of Iraq? This is wrong. This is reprehensible. But this is not representative of the 150,000 soldiers that are over here,” adds Kimmitt. “I'd say the same thing to the American people... Don't judge your army based on the actions of a few."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the soldiers facing court martial is Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick.

Frederick is charged with maltreatment for allegedly participating in and setting up a photo, and for posing in a photograph by sitting on top of a detainee. He is charged with an indecent act for observing one scene. He is also charged with assault for allegedly striking detainees – and ordering detainees to strike each other.

60 Minutes II talked with him by phone from Baghdad, where he is awaiting court martial.

Frederick told us he will plead not guilty, claiming the way the Army was running the prison led to the abuse of prisoners.

“We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things...like rules and regulations,” says Frederick. “And it just wasn't happening."

Six months before he faced a court martial, Frederick sent home a video diary of his trip across the country. Frederick, a reservist, said he was proud to serve in Iraq. He seemed particularly well-suited for the job at Abu Ghraib. He’s a corrections officer at a Virginia prison, whose warden described Frederick to us as “one of the best.”

Frederick says Americans came into the prison: “We had military intelligence, we had all kinds of other government agencies, FBI, CIA ... All those that I didn't even know or recognize."

Frederick's letters and email messages home also offer clues to problems at the prison. He wrote that he was helping the interrogators:

"Military intelligence has encouraged and told us 'Great job.' "

"They usually don't allow others to watch them interrogate. But since they like the way I run the prison, they have made an exception."

"We help getting them to talk with the way we handle them. ... We've had a very high rate with our style of getting them to break. They usually end up breaking within hours."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DANINJA
30th April 04, 03:47 AM
According to the Army’s own investigation, that’s what was happening. The Army found that interrogators asked reservists working in the prison to prepare the Iraqi detainees, physically and mentally, for questioning.

What, if any actions, are being taken against the interrogators?

"I hope the investigation is including not only the people who committed the crimes, but some of the people that might have encouraged these crimes as well,” says Kimmitt. “Because they certainly share some level of responsibility as well."

But so far, none of the interrogators at Abu Ghraib are facing criminal charges. In fact, a number of them are civilians, and military law doesn’t apply to them.

One of the civilian interrogators at Abu Ghraib was questioned by the Army, and he told investigators he had "broken several tables during interrogations, unintentionally," while trying to "fear up" prisoners. He denied hurting anyone.

In our phone conversation, 60 Minutes II asked Frederick whether he had seen any prisoners beaten.

“I saw things. We had to use force sometimes to get the inmates to cooperate, just like our rules of engagement said,” says Frederick. “We learned a little bit of Arabic, basic commands. And they didn't want to listen, so sometimes, you would just give them a little nudge or something like that just to get them to cooperate so we could get the mission accomplished."

Attorney Gary Myers and a judge advocate in Iraq are defending Frederick. They say he should never have been charged, because of the failure of his commanders to provide proper training and standards.

"The elixir of power, the elixir of believing that you're helping the CIA, for God's sake, when you're from a small town in Virginia, that's intoxicating,” says Myers. “And so, good guys sometimes do things believing that they are being of assistance and helping a just cause. ... And helping people they view as important."

Frederick says he didn't see a copy of the Geneva Convention rules for handling prisoners of war until after he was charged.

The Army investigation confirms that soldiers at Abu Ghraib were not trained at all in Geneva Convention rules. And most were reservists, part-time soldiers who didn't get the kind of specialized prisoner of war training given to regular Army members.

Frederick also says there were far too few soldiers there for the number of prisoners: “There was, when I left, there was over 900. And there was only five soldiers, plus two non-commissioned officers, in charge for those 900 -- over 900 inmates."

Rather asked Kimmitt about understaffing. "That doesn't condone individual acts of criminal behavior no matter how tired we are. No matter how stretched we are, that doesn't give us license and it doesn't give us the authority to break the law,” says Kimmitt.

“That may have been a contributing factor, but at the end of the day, this is probably more about leadership, supervision, setting standards, abiding by the Army values and understanding what's right, and having the guts to say what's right.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinsky ran Abu Ghraib for the Army. She was also in charge of three other Army prison facilities that housed thousands of Iraqi inmates.

The Army investigation determined that her lack of leadership and clear standards led to problems system wide. Karpinski talked with 60 Minutes’ Steve Kroft last October at Abu Ghraib, before any of this came out.

"This is international standards,” said Karpinski. “It's the best care available in a prison facility."

But the Army investigation found serious problems behind the scenes. The Army has photographs that show a detainee with wires attached to his genitals. Another shows a dog attacking an Iraqi prisoner. Frederick said that dogs were “used for intimidation factors.”

Part of the Army's own investigation is a statement from an Iraqi detainee who charges a translator - hired to work at the prison - with raping a male juvenile prisoner: "They covered all the doors with sheets. I heard the screaming. ...and the female soldier was taking pictures."
There is also a picture of an Iraqi man who appears to be dead -- and badly beaten.

"It's reprehensible that anybody would be taking a picture of that situation,” says Kimmitt.

But what about the situation itself?

“I don't know the facts surrounding what caused the bruising and the bleeding,” says Kimmitt. “If that is also one of the charges being brought against the soldiers, that too is absolutely unacceptable and completely outside of what we expect of our soldiers and our guards at the prisons."

Is there any indication that similar actions may have happened at other prisons? “I'd like to sit here and say that these are the only prisoner abuse cases that we're aware of, but we know that there have been some other ones since we've been here in Iraq,” says Kimmitt.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When Saddam ran Abu Ghraib prison, Iraqis were too afraid to come ask for information on their family members.

When 60 Minutes II was there last month, hundreds had gathered outside the gates, worried about what is going on inside.

"We will be paid back for this. These people at some point will be let out,” says Cowan. “Their families are gonna know. Their friends are gonna know."

This is a hard story to have to tell when Americans are fighting and dying in Iraq. And for Cowan, it’s a personal issue. His son is an infantry soldier serving in Iraq for the last four months.

Rather asked Cowan what he would say to "that person who is sitting in their living room and saying, ‘I wish they wouldn't do this. It's undermining our troops and they shouldn't do it.’"

"If we don't tell this story, these kinds of things will continue. And we'll end up getting paid back 100 or 1,000 times over,” says Cowan. “Americans want to be proud of each and everything that our servicemen and women do in Iraq. We wanna be proud. We know they're working hard. None of us, now, later, before or during this conflict, should wanna let incidents like this just pass."

Kimmitt says the Army will not let what happened at Abu Ghraib just pass. What does he think is the most important thing for Americans to know about what has happened?

"I think two things. No. 1, this is a small minority of the military, and No. 2, they need to understand that is not the Army,” says Kimmitt. “The Army is a values-based organization. We live by our values. Some of our soldiers every day die by our values, and these acts that you see in these pictures may reflect the actions of individuals, but by God, it doesn't reflect my army."

Two weeks ago, 60 Minutes II received an appeal from the Defense Department, and eventually from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard Myers, to delay this broadcast -- given the danger and tension on the ground in Iraq.

60 Minutes II decided to honor that request, while pressing for the Defense Department to add its perspective to the incidents at Abu Ghraib prison. This week, with the photos beginning to circulate elsewhere, and with other journalists about to publish their versions of the story, the Defense Department agreed to cooperate in our report.


© MMIV, CBS Worldwide Inc. All Rights Reserved

drunkenj
30th April 04, 05:13 AM
does no one understand....... it doesn't matter what US troops do to iraqis or anyone else, since they are under no obligation to follow international law

SLJ
30th April 04, 05:33 AM
That's a bit below the belt.

Submission practice, ok. But that's a little off.

CaptShady
30th April 04, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by DANINJA
Frederick also says there were far too few soldiers there for the number of prisoners: “There was, when I left, there was over 900. And there was only five soldiers, plus two non-commissioned officers, in charge for those 900 -- over 900 inmates."

Hmmm .. roughly 200 people in your care, and all of them hate you, and want to see you dead. This doesn't justify what was done, but it does at least explain it (to me).

I suppose the lack of qualified military to handle such an arduous task is Bush's fault too? Damn Bush for thinning down our military to nothing while Clinton was in office!

Omar
30th April 04, 07:56 AM
Um...Clinton didn't declare war on Iraq. Dumbass.

CaptShady
30th April 04, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by Omar
Um...Clinton didn't declare war on Iraq. Dumbass.

Clinton drastically reduced our forces dip fuck

Kempocos
30th April 04, 08:37 AM
All this must be true.......The news would not lie or change the facts around right...... I mean it was on the internet.

WingChun Lawyer
30th April 04, 08:59 AM
Originally posted by CaptShady
Hmmm .. roughly 200 people in your care, and all of them hate you, and want to see you dead. This doesn't justify what was done, but it does at least explain it (to me).

What do you mean by explanation here? I also don´t think that was justifiable by any means, but IMO if those soldiers were facing a rebellion they would have used their weapons, not tortured the prisioners.

Quite frankly, we are talking about a bunch of sadistic bastards with weapons who acted out of sadism, not out of desperation - they didn´t act to keep things under control, things were already under control and they used their power to have a bit of fun.

CaptShady
30th April 04, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
Quite frankly, we are talking about a bunch of sadistic bastards with weapons who acted out of sadism, not out of desperation - they didn´t act to keep things under control, things were already under control and they used their power to have a bit of fun.

Where is that depicted at all? There's nothing stating the mindset of the prisoners at all. What if there were recurrent attacks? Attacks accompanied by constant looks of disgust, and spitting at their jailers? Information is missing here, isn't it?

punchingdummy
30th April 04, 09:11 AM
Their motivations are irrelevent. These behaviors are completely unnacceptable.

DANINJA
30th April 04, 09:16 AM
"Part of the Army's own investigation is a statement from an Iraqi detainee who charges a translator - hired to work at the prison - with raping a male juvenile prisoner: "They covered all the doors with sheets. I heard the screaming. ...and the female soldier was taking pictures."
There is also a picture of an Iraqi man who appears to be dead -- and badly beaten. "

I am sorry but i dont think you can justify actions like that!!!!!

WingChun Lawyer
30th April 04, 09:25 AM
Originally posted by CaptShady
Where is that depicted at all? There's nothing stating the mindset of the prisoners at all. What if there were recurrent attacks? Attacks accompanied by constant looks of disgust, and spitting at their jailers? Information is missing here, isn't it?

Punchingdummy is correct. As for where is that "missing information", just take a good look at the article and see if there is any reference to prisoner rebellion, prisoner violence, or any kind of prisoner acts which would somewhat justify torturing them: as I said, if things were critical, the soldiers would have used their weapons on the prisoners, not raped, humilliated and tortured them - THIS is something you do when you are pretty sure the poor bastard doesn´t represent a threat to you.

If there was any justification for violence against the prisoners, the army PR guys would love to insist on that. "Prisoner mindset", whatever you mean by that, is no excuse to torture: the army representative, in fact, just insisted that those people are the exception to the rule in the US army (I tend to agree with that, granting the benefit of the doubt), and refrained from mentioning prisoner behaviour at all.

Quite frankly Shady, I usually respect your opinions, but this time it seems you are trying to find excuses when there are none.

CaptShady
30th April 04, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by punchingdummy
Their motivations are irrelevent. These behaviors are completely unnacceptable.


Originally posted by DANINJA
"Part of the Army's own investigation is a statement from an Iraqi detainee who charges a translator - hired to work at the prison - with raping a male juvenile prisoner: "They covered all the doors with sheets. I heard the screaming. ...and the female soldier was taking pictures."
There is also a picture of an Iraqi man who appears to be dead -- and badly beaten. "

I am sorry but i dont think you can justify actions like that!!!!!


Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
Punchingdummy is correct. As for where is that "missing information", just take a good look at the article and see if there is any reference to prisoner rebellion, prisoner violence, or any kind of prisoner acts which would somewhat justify torturing them: as I said, if things were critical, the soldiers would have used their weapons on the prisoners, not raped, humilliated and tortured them - THIS is something you do when you are pretty sure the poor bastard doesn´t represent a threat to you.

If there was any justification for violence against the prisoners, the army PR guys would love to insist on that. "Prisoner mindset", whatever you mean by that, is no excuse to torture: the army representative, in fact, just insisted that those people are the exception to the rule in the US army (I tend to agree with that, granting the benefit of the doubt), and refrained from mentioning prisoner behaviour at all.

Quite frankly Shady, I usually respect your opinions, but this time it seems you are trying to find excuses when there are none.

IN NO WAY am I excusing anything. I don't disagree with you guys. But the detained personnel here are the same sons a bitches (in way of mentality) that flew into the WTC Towers, the Pentagon, and the ground in PA. They are not hapless, helpless innocent victims .. they HATE US! They wish us ALL dead. We are ALL infidels to them, and deserve to die. Painting them like the truly innocent victimized jews of concentration camps is just as wrong as what these Army guards are doing.

WingChun Lawyer
30th April 04, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by CaptShady
IN NO WAY am I excusing anything. I don't disagree with you guys. But the detained personnel here are the same sons a bitches (in way of mentality) that flew into the WTC Towers, the Pentagon, and the ground in PA. They are not hapless, helpless innocent victims .. they HATE US! They wish us ALL dead. We are ALL infidels to them, and deserve to die. Painting them like the truly innocent victimized jews of concentration camps is just as wrong as what these Army guards are doing.

How do you know what is their mentality? From what I recall about that article, most detainees were later released - i.e. they were found out to be innocent.

And they suffered torture along with those who actually wanted the US inva...err, liberators dead. Without a fair trial.

You are making a very dangerous generalization, and without any basis on that article. But I´ll grant you that: those who were not enemies of the USA before entering that prison will certainly be when they are left out.

And with damn good reason.

CaptShady
30th April 04, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
You are making a very dangerous generalization, and without any basis on that article.

No. I'm giving possible details where NONE are present whatsoever.


Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
But I´ll grant you that: those who were not enemies of the USA before entering that prison will certainly be when they are left out.

Would you say the same about the Al-Qaeda camp?


Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
And with damn good reason.

Stop trying to justify your own hatred of my country with theirs. Because we're the big boys on the block, there's tons of jealousy abound. Stand up like a man and admit yours ... don't present bullshit to justify your own jealousy and hate.

There is NOTHING to depict the mindset of the prisoners. What I've presented is a possibility. And given that there are those in Iraq that love the US presence there (AND LOTS OF THEM!), and those in Iraq shooting at soldiers .. the fact of the matter is that it's QUITE POSSIBLE that a kinder, gentler Army would've gotten their nuts cut off at the first possible chance by these prisoners.

SLJ
30th April 04, 09:56 AM
If they were haters, just shoot them or give them a kicking.

Buttfucking is just plain wrong.

DANINJA
30th April 04, 09:59 AM
i can now understand why falluja civilians would want to mutilate bodies of coalition security workers

CaptShady
30th April 04, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by DANINJA
i can now understand why falluja civilians would want to mutilate bodies of coalition security workers


you CAN now??? Or you just finally found validation for your America hating logic?

WingChun Lawyer
30th April 04, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by CaptShady
No. I'm giving possible details where NONE are present whatsoever.

Read your post again, you were making generalizations.


Originally posted by CaptShady
Would you say the same about the Al-Qaeda camp?

We are not talking about Al Qaeda here, we are speculating about a bunch of prisoners about whom we know nothing. Don´t change the subject.

You are acting in a paranoid manner, as if every iraqi was in arms against the USA: if that was the case, the USA wouldn´t be in Iraq now.

And for your information, I believe every human being deserves a fair trial, including those in Guantánamo Bay. Sadly it seems you disagree with me on that.


Originally posted by CaptShady
Stop trying to justify your own hatred of my country with theirs. Because we're the big boys on the block, there's tons of jealousy abound. Stand up like a man and admit yours ... don't present bullshit to justify your own jealousy and hate.

I don´t hate the USA, and I never said anything to imply that, so don´t try to be a smartass and put words in my mouth. But if I was tortured by US soldiers, you couldn´t expect me to be fair against americans in general, specially if they had invaded my country.

I would feel the same way towards France, Germany, Argentina or any other country, as would you. Pretty natural feeling, hatred towards your torturers.

Stand up like a man yourself, admit you are a nationalistic paranoid, and find yourself a shrink.


Originally posted by CaptShady
There is NOTHING to depict the mindset of the prisoners. What I've presented is a possibility. And given that there are those in Iraq that love the US presence there (AND LOTS OF THEM!), and those in Iraq shooting at soldiers .. the fact of the matter is that it's QUITE POSSIBLE that a kinder, gentler Army would've gotten their nuts cut off at the first possible chance by these prisoners..

Yes, that´s a possibility. In my opinion a slim one, as prison rebellions, at least in Brazil, are put down with guns, not with dogs and electrodes in people´s genitals. Unless the rebellious prisoners have already surrendered and are tied down, in which case we dont´ have a rebellion anymore...oops.

That is what we were debating before you decided I hate the USA.

CaptShady
30th April 04, 10:15 AM
Ah, so you can generalize against the U.S. but it's just soo drastically terribly unfair to generalize about Iraqi citizens, and more specific, Iraqi POW's? How moronic is that?! Proof of your own desire to hate the US, yet not being man enough to just step beyond the bounds of political correctness, and just do it.

WingChun Lawyer
30th April 04, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by CaptShady
Ah, so you can generalize against the U.S. but it's just soo drastically terribly unfair to generalize about Iraqi citizens, and more specific, Iraqi POW's? How moronic is that?! Proof of your own desire to hate the US, yet not being man enough to just step beyond the bounds of political correctness, and just do it.

Kindly point where I made any generalizations against the USA, paranoid boy. I said the soldiers who tortured those prisoners are sadistic bastards, and nothing else: I even said I didn´t believe that to be the rule among US soldiers, as I gave them the benefit of doubt.

I said that here:

""Prisoner mindset", whatever you mean by that, is no excuse to torture: the army representative, in fact, just insisted that those people are the exception to the rule in the US army (I tend to agree with that, granting the benefit of the doubt), and refrained from mentioning prisoner behaviour at all."

punchingdummy
30th April 04, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by DANINJA
"Part of the Army's own investigation is a statement from an Iraqi detainee who charges a translator - hired to work at the prison - with raping a male juvenile prisoner: "They covered all the doors with sheets. I heard the screaming. ...and the female soldier was taking pictures."
There is also a picture of an Iraqi man who appears to be dead -- and badly beaten. "

I am sorry but i dont think you can justify actions like that!!!!!

While I am quite upset by some of the photos circulating, we must be careful not to accept a detainees statement at face value. An investigation should be COMPLETED and the offending parties, provided sufficient evidence exists, should be tried. My personal opinion is that maximum sentences would be appropriate for all those convicted.

I happen to have some knowledge of other alleged detainee abuse incidents and, based upon what I have read to date, the US military is aggresively pursuing criminal action (through UCMJ) for those cases with anything that resembles reasonable evidence. I have no doubt there will be an aggressive effort in this case.

CaptShady
30th April 04, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
Kindly point where I made any generalizations against the USA, paranoid boy.

Gladly!


Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
But I´ll grant you that: those who were not enemies of the USA before entering that prison will certainly be when they are left out.

And with damn good reason.


Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
And they suffered torture along with those who actually wanted the US inva...err, liberators dead. Without a fair trial.



Looks like generalization to me.



Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
""Prisoner mindset", whatever you mean by that,

Terrorist mindset.

DANINJA
30th April 04, 10:32 AM
you CAN now??? Or you just finally found validation for your America hating logic?

No i was trying to make the point that things like that will cause resentment amongst Iraqi civilians who already see the US as invaders!!!!

CaptShady
30th April 04, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by DANINJA
No i was trying to make the point that things like that will cause resentment amongst Iraqi civilians who already see the US as invaders!!!!

My bad! I just get tired of fuckers drinking hateraid ... American flavor!

Dralion
30th April 04, 10:59 AM
The problem is that DANINJA is partially right:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-poll-cover_x.htm

Freddy
30th April 04, 01:40 PM
I think everyone should respect the Geneva Convention. I'm against the ill treatment of any prisoners. Period. If one country donest respect then other nations could say "heck why should we respect it it either if they dont." According to the army's brass they wouldnt want someone else to mistreat American prisoners either.
They have to follow certain international laws regarding war and thats why they have to investigate the matter and prosecute any war crimes that might have been committed.

WingChun Lawyer
30th April 04, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by CaptShady
Gladly!






Looks like generalization to me.




Terrorist mindset.

Excuse me, so you think an average, innocent iraqi civilian who sees his country invaded (yes, invaded) by foreign forces, and is tortured in jail (and/or sees torture) by american soldiers has NO GOOD REASON to be mad at the USA? If you call that generalization, you are either an insentive bastard or you missed my point here.

In fact, it is my opinion that this person has, indeed, very good reasons to be mad at the USA in general, no matter how misguided his actions may be. The fact that he may target US soldiers who were actually decent people and were just following orders (and who probably, as decent people, abhor torture) is precisely the reason the US army should prosecute those bastards to the full extent of the law (as it seems to be the case, thankfully).

And the USA did invade Iraq, mister. No UN sanction, that sounds like invasion, and invasion it shall remain until Mr. Bush either (a) hands over control to the UN, or (b) installs an actual representative local government (seems unlikely).

Oh, and rest assured, I do not hate your precious country - as evil empires go, the USA is actually quite a decent one. I actually admire many aspects of your country´s culture, as well as its democratical instituions.

I am not so simple minded as to hate an entire country when I can concentrate on the bad aspects of its culture, or on its bad politicians. But if I was, and if I did hate your country, I would say so.

I am man enough to voice my opinions. I just hope you are man enough to admit you were wrong about my opinions.

CaptShady
30th April 04, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
Excuse me, so you think an average, innocent iraqi civilian

These are prisoners of war. They took up arms against the invading forces, they are sooooo NOT innocent.


Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
who sees his country invaded (yes, invaded) by foreign forces

Excuse ME .. we're talking about POW's not civilians, and secondly, only those that agreed with Saddam's tyranny saw it as an invasion. Others saw it as them finally being freed.


Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
and is tortured in jail (and/or sees torture) by american soldiers has NO GOOD REASON to be mad at the USA? If you call that generalization, you are either an insentive bastard or you missed my point here.

The fact that you can sympathize with hate against ALL of the U.S. and ALL that it stands for because of the actions of a sad few, is generalization.

gen·er·al·iza·tion
to derive or induce (a general conception or principle) from particulars b : to draw a general conclusion from

gen·er·al
1. involving, applicable to, or affecting the whole
2. involving, relating to, or applicable to every member of a class, kind, or group

If my commenting on the mindset of a SINGLE GROUP of SOLDIERS who took up arms against others is generalizing, then YOUR attitude expressed above is far beyond my generalizing. You've maxed out your generalization card!



Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
In fact, it is my opinion that this person has, indeed, very good reasons to be mad at the USA in general, no matter how misguided his actions may be.

Okay, in your own words even .. you're generalizing, and you do it again here:


Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
Excuse me, so you think an average, innocent iraqi civilian





Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
And the USA did invade Iraq, mister. No UN sanction, that sounds like invasion, and invasion it shall remain until Mr. Bush either (a) hands over control to the UN, or (b) installs an actual representative local government (seems unlikely).


Okay, this is a whole other issue altogether. We're talking about your painting the whole of the US as evil, and the PRISONERS OF WAR as martyrs. But since ya brought it up .. why don't you start up a thread and tell me when Mussolini, Bonaparte, Hitler, had UN Sanction. Tell me about when the UN Sanction the Bay of Pigs, The Falkland Islands, Yugoslavia's attacks on it's own countrymen, the US Civil War, etc.




Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
Oh, and rest assured, I do not hate your precious country - as evil empires go, the USA is actually quite a decent one. I actually admire many aspects of your country´s culture, as well as its democratical instituions.

I am not so simple minded as to hate an entire country when I can concentrate on the bad aspects of its culture, or on its bad politicians. But if I was, and if I did hate your country, I would say so.

I am man enough to voice my opinions. I just hope you are man enough to admit you were wrong about my opinions.

IF I felt I was wrong, I'd say so. But I don't. When you make general statements, then use "you're generalizing" as an argument .. when you paint the US soldiers as evil, and the POWs as holy innocent bystanders .. and not fessing up to the SIMPLE POSSIBILITY that the whole of the story hasn't been presented ... then what other conclusion is left to make? If you can jump to conclusions given this news story, why can't I jump to conclusions as to where your motivation comes from?

WingChun Lawyer
30th April 04, 02:43 PM
"These are prisoners of war. They took up arms against the invading forces, they are sooooo NOT innocent."

I didn´t jump to any conclusions, mister. I just think that the bastards who did that should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

As you said, we are just speculating about the status of the prisoners at that prison - as far as we know, they might be POWs, or they might be thiefs, rapists, people who stepped on the toe of someone important, whatever: it doesn´t matter, they should all be prosecuted and they should all receive a fair trial. They should not be tortured, there is NO EXCUSE for torture, as you seem to imply.

You may think POWs are fair game for torturers, but I am glad to inform you that, fortunately, this opinion is not shared by US senior military officers, as seem in that article.

"only those that agreed with Saddam's tyranny saw it as an invasion. Others saw it as them finally being freed."

"cough" fallujah "cough" "cough" najaf. Wake up and smell the coffee, IF the iraqis saw the USA as liberators, it seems they have gone beyond that stage and left you and Mr. Bush behind.

Quite frankly, the problem, as I see it, is that Mr. Bush doesn´t want to let the damn iraqis just govern themselves. Burning newspapers, stopping the census for an election...the iraqis seem to understand, rightly it seems, that the USA government is just trying to pull the old trick of leaving behind a puppet government and getting some really nice oil contracts.

Sorry pal, we are not talking about heroes being attacked by bad, bad fanatics - we are talking about an invasion force being attacked by local insurgents, whatever you want to call them. The USA had about a year to show some goodwill and at least begin the basis of a real representative government, but instead the army is burning down shiite newspapers in a country where the majority of the population is shiite.

"The fact that you can sympathize with hate against ALL of the U.S. and ALL that it stands for because of the actions of a sad few, is generalization"

You seem to lack the skills necessary to read all the words in my posts. I said I have no problem with the USA, or with the US army: in fact, I understand very few armies in the world would actually conduct a real investigation about torture commited by its own men, as it seems to be happening. I don´t sympathize with hate against all the USA, but I can understand it from someone who has seen his country invaded and has been tortured by the invaders.

You don´t seem to understand why someone would develop an irrational hatred for your country, but I do. And the US army thankfully understands, too, and that´s why they know they can´t afford to let that kind of thing happen.

CaptShady
30th April 04, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
I didn´t jump to any conclusions, mister. I just think that the bastards who did that should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.


So do I, but that's not what we were discussing. We're discussing generalizing, on either side of the fence.


Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
As you said, we are just speculating about the status of the prisoners at that prison - as far as we know, they might be POWs, or they might be thiefs, rapists, people who stepped on the toe of someone important, whatever:

That's all I've been trying to say. Hey, where's your post on how unfairly Milosovic treated people? I can't find it anywhere.
Is it that he wasn't American?


Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
They should not be tortured, there is NO EXCUSE for torture, as you seem to imply.

Boy, ain't that the truth. Hey, one quick question, WHERE THE FUCK DID I SAY OTHERWISE?!?!


Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
You may think POWs are fair game for torturers, but I am glad to inform you that, fortunately, this opinion is not shared by US senior military officers, as seem in that article.


Never said that either. I'm just saying that shit can happen when you're trying to control 200 people that hate you and want to see you dead. Even if you're armed. Had Clinton not so drastically reduced our forces, maybe it would've been 25, or 50 .. a mob easier controlled than 200. The rape thing is 100% inexcusable, but shoving them? Yelling at them when they don't follow orders? Fuck that, too damned bad.


Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
"cough" fallujah "cough" "cough" najaf. Wake up and smell the coffee, IF the iraqis saw the USA as liberators, it seems they have gone beyond that stage and left you and Mr. Bush behind.

Ah ah ah! Let's stay focused here. We're talking about the imprisonment of those that have attacked us during the war. That "stage" is definitely over, but we're NOT discussing that are we? Start a new thread, maybe I'll comment.


Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
Quite frankly, the problem, as I see it, is that Mr. Bush doesn´t want to let the damn iraqis just govern themselves. Burning newspapers, stopping the census for an election...the iraqis seem to understand, rightly it seems, that the USA government is just trying to pull the old trick of leaving behind a puppet government and getting some really nice oil contracts.

Calm down, there's soooooo many other threads in existance to discuss that. I agree with what you're saying .. only you're not staying focused! Stay with me here!


Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
Sorry pal, we are not talking about heroes being attacked by bad, bad fanatics - we are talking about an invasion force being attacked by local insurgents, whatever you want to call them. The USA had about a year to show some goodwill and at least begin the basis of a real representative government, but instead the army is burning down shiite newspapers in a country where the majority of the population is shiite.


Please see note above about staying focused.


Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
You seem to lack the skills necessary to read all the words in my posts. I said I have no problem with the USA, or with the US army: in fact, I understand very few armies in the world would actually conduct a real investigation about torture commited by its own men, as it seems to be happening. I don´t sympathize with hate against all the USA, but I can understand it from someone who has seen his country invaded and has been tortured by the invaders.

You say this, yet you feel they're justified in the whole of the US for the actions of a few. Yet you can't see justification in the whole of the mindset of prisoners? WTF??!?!?!?


Originally posted by WingChun Lawyer
You don´t seem to understand why someone would develop an irrational hatred for your country, but I do. And the US army thankfully understands, too, and that´s why they know they can´t afford to let that kind of thing happen.

No .. I can see it, but you can't see it going in any other direction. My fucking country was attacked! Thousands died because of the shiite MINDSET. FUCK pacifism! If it happened in YOUR back yard, your reaction and that of your country's army would be quite the same. Let me pick off your buddy next to you, and you NOT have a negative reaction towards ME. Where was all the fucking pacifism in the past, when the US was bailing so many out? Where was the "hey stay out of it" when the US was handing out money by the fucking handful. HELL, I remember when Brazil was pissed at the US because BRAZIL'S crops were deystroyed due to incliment weather, and the US didn't pay for goods that didn't exist. It was the whole of the country's fault that Brazil couldn't farm in bad weather, and Brazil didn't get US money. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem so quit being part of the problem and shut the fuck up. Stop taking pride and joy in the negative press. If it weren't for the U.S. a whole lot of other countries would be in a world of fucking hurt. Your bitching and moaning causes more problems and justifying someones hate of the US creates MORE problems.

WingChun Lawyer
30th April 04, 03:38 PM
"Boy, ain't that the truth. Hey, one quick question, WHERE THE FUCK DID I SAY OTHERWISE?!?!"

Ok.

"These are prisoners of war. They took up arms against the invading forces, they are sooooo NOT innocent."

Considering we are discussing the fact that those "notsoinnocentpeople" were being tortured, I believe you consider enemy POWs fair game for torture. Learn to state things clearly next time.

"That's all I've been trying to say. Hey, where's your post on how unfairly Milosovic treated people? I can't find it anywhere.
Is it that he wasn't American?"

Last time I´ll say it, I am not against the USA. Shit, you have the biggest army in the world, the biggest economy - I can´t understand how people like you manage to develop this childish siege mentality ("oh, those evil muslins, they´ve got STONES! NUKE ´EM ALL!").

And FYI, I think the USA did an admirable job in Yugoslavia.

"I'm just saying that shit can happen when you're trying to control 200 people that hate you and want to see you dead. Even if you're armed."

I agree with that, but torture is NOT the kind of shit that may happen in such situations - accidentally shooting an angry prisoner who is yelling at you is. Since we agree on that, I´ll just move on.

"Calm down, there's soooooo many other threads in existance to discuss that. I agree with what you're saying .. only you're not staying focused! Stay with me here!"

Hey, you brought up prisoner mindset to the stage! Personally I believe that´s a non-issue, but you decided to bring it up. Also, you were the one who started with the generalizations about the bad, bad fanatics, here:

“IN NO WAY am I excusing anything. I don't disagree with you guys. But the detained personnel here are the same sons a bitches (in way of mentality) that flew into the WTC Towers, the Pentagon, and the ground in PA. They are not hapless, helpless innocent victims .. they HATE US! They wish us ALL dead. We are ALL infidels to them, and deserve to die. Painting them like the truly innocent victimized jews of concentration camps is just as wrong as what these Army guards are doing.”

See? We don´t know shit about the prisoners who were tortured, but you suddenly decided they “are the same sons of bitches” who attacked the USA. That is pure paranoia, Shady - you created this so called "shiite mindset" to justify whatever the USA does in foreign countries, even though most damn shiites are just law abiding citizens who want to be left alone, like USA citizens.

And that is a very ugly generalization you did, buddy. Not all enemy POWs are terrorists…BEFORE going into a prison controlled by those bastards, that is. After that, who knows.

“You say this, yet you feel they're justified in the whole of the US for the actions of a few. Yet you can't see justification in the whole of the mindset of prisoners? WTF??!?!?!?”

I never said that feeling was justified, but I can, however, understand it. You, on the other hand, seem incapable of doing that. And I didn´t quite understand what you meant by “in the whole of the USA.”

“My fucking country was attacked! Thousands died because of the shiite MINDSET. FUCK pacifism! If it happened in YOUR back yard, your reaction and that of your country's army would be quite the same.”

Yes, maybe. But that wouldn´t make me right in all my actions, just angry, confused and self righteous.

"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem so quit being part of the problem and shut the fuck up. Stop taking pride and joy in the negative press."

Shady, you are not stupid. Read what you just wrote and judge for youself whether this is siege mentality or not.

Oh, and Brazil has absolutely nothing to do with that. We commit our own violations of the Geneva Convention, thank you very much.

Muqatil
30th April 04, 03:46 PM
Wow, heated debate!

As it was pointed out already, the prisoners are not your average joe off of the street. Most of them have ties to the old Iraqi military, regime or current insurgents. Most of the insurgents are NOT disgruntled citizens. They are former Hussein loyalists and numerous foreign terrorists. I'm sure there are some people that we have turned against us in the greater population, but most Iraqis are just happy to get on with life.

The Shi'ite mindset is not what started any of this on 11 September. it was Islamic Fundamentalism. It was a perversion of an entire religion.

As an Army Interrogator, I can tell you that physical coercion is never condoned or practiced. This was a rare case that the media will blow out of proportion to make it seem worse than it is. The folks guilty of it should be dishonorably discharged and imprisoned. It is true that we don't know all of the info about the situations, however, that is no excuse. There were no riots in the prison. If there had been, the prisoners would have been put under control and we would have heard about that also. the guards are able to use some physical contact to enforce certain things. As in telling a prisoner to move and he ignores the instruction, you move him. Prisoners will be yelled at if it is needed, but NEVER physically abused. The SSG that claimed he never was trained or had a chance to read regs is full of shit. he is a corrections officer. He knows how you treat prisoners. Every soldier that deals with EPWs(enemy prisoners of war) knows about their rights. The article never says what his MOS is, but he is probably either and MP or a CO, which means he had the training, reservist or active. The article also makes a point of saying that the civilian contractor admitted to breaking a few tables on accident, as if this is horrendous. So the fuck what?! It's called getting attention. THey are EPWs. Your job is to question them for valuable info. You will make them uneasy, or make them comfortable depending on the person. You may share a cig and some coffee while discussing what type of tits you like, or you may be screaming and yelling while throwing shit every where. the job is not fun, nor pretty. It is a job that has to be done though. No bleeding heart pansies need apply. War is never pretty. Some things, like from this story, are inexcusable though.

WingChun Lawyer
30th April 04, 03:53 PM
"As it was pointed out already, the prisoners are not your average joe off of the street. Most of them have ties to the old Iraqi military, regime or current insurgents. Most of the insurgents are NOT disgruntled citizens. They are former Hussein loyalists and numerous foreign terrorists. I'm sure there are some people that we have turned against us in the greater population, but most Iraqis are just happy to get on with life."

Point is, we don´t really know anything about those prisoners...still, as you said, nothing would justify torture. Call me a foreign bastard, but I do expect higher standards from the US army than from a third world militia.

Fortunately, it seems the US army also expects higher standards of its own men.

I am not sure I agree about the final part of the statement above (the videos and pictures I saw of the fighters in fallujah and najaf showed really average joes holding weapons, IMO), but I don´t want to kill this thread, and in any event I don´t really know how deep is the popular support for the insurgents - Saddam WAS a bastard, after all.

DANINJA
30th April 04, 04:26 PM
this is taken from the Aljazeera website:

Pictures showing abuse of Iraqi prisoners have sparked shock among officials and triggered condemnation of US foreign policy.


The office of Prime Minister Tony Blair, the US strongest ally in its war in Iraq, condemned the abuses.

His comments on Friday came after an American television network broadcast images of Iraqis stripped naked, hooded and being tormented by their captors.

One photograph showed Iraqi prisoners naked except for hoods covering their heads and stacked in a human pyramid.

The CBS network, which broadcast the pictures in the US on Wednesday, said they were taken at Abu Ghuraib prison near Baghdad late last year.

"The US army spokesman has said this morning that he is appalled, that those responsible have let their fellow soldiers down, and those are views that we would associate the UK government with," Blair's official spokesman said.

"This is not representative of the 150,000 soldiers that are in Iraq," the spokesman said, adding that the occupation should not be judged on the alleged actions of a few.

British military authorities are themselves investigating eight separate "allegations of maltreatment" by their troops in southern Iraq.

'Absolutely terrible'

Blair's human rights envoy to Iraq, Ann Clwyd, also condemned the alleged abuse.

"I think they are absolutely terrible," she told BBC radio, referring to the photographs. "I am shocked
Clwyd said she had previously discussed the treatment of detainees at Abu Ghuraib with officials in President George Bush's administration, but said they had denied there was a problem.

"I was told by a very senior person there 'We don't do this kind of thing,"' said Clwyd, a lawmaker in Blair's ruling Labour party and supporter of the US-led war in Iraq. "Clearly the people in charge did not know this was going on."

'Culture of hate'


The editor in chief of the London-based Arabic daily al-Quds al-Arabi denied statements that this incident was the work of rogue soldiers.

"This is the outcome of the culture of hate that the US administration adopts against the Arabs and Muslims," Abd al-Bari Atwan told Aljazeera.net

"They (the Americans) removed Saddam Hussein for acts of abuse, but who will remove Bush and Rumsfeld for inciting these acts?"

Atwan added that the pictures were proof that the US administration had lost "the battle of winning the hearts and minds not only in Iraq but in the whole Muslim world."

Human rights watchdog, Amnesty International also said the incident was not an isolated case. "Our extensive research in Iraq suggests that this is not an isolated incident. It is not enough for the USA to react only once images have hit the television screens".


White House response

The White House on Friday denounced the alleged abuse, saying the United States "will not tolerate" such behavior and vowing that those responsible will be punished.
We cannot tolerate it," spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters. "The military is taking strong action against the individuals responsible for these despicable acts."

US President George Bush has known about the allegations of misconduct "for a while" and expects "appropriate action to be taken against these individuals," he said. "We will not tolerate it."

Private contractors

The abuses have thrown the spotlight on the shadowy world of private contractors.

A military report into the Abu Ghuraib case - parts of which were made available to the Guardian newspaper showed that private contractors were supervising interrogations in the prison.

One civilian contractor was accused of raping a young, male prisoner but has not been charged because military law has no jurisdiction over him.

The military investigation names two US contractors, CACI International and the Titan Corporation, for their involvement in Abu Ghuraib.

WingChun Lawyer
30th April 04, 04:33 PM
http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engmde140172004

Apparently this has not been an isolated case.

Omar
30th April 04, 05:15 PM
I still can't figure out how anybody is linking 9/11 to Iraq. I was overseas when Bush launched his holy war against the infidels and I was like, WFT!?!?

Let's see:

America invades Iraq and Iraqis generalize that America is bad. Not so difficult to understand.

An extremest fundamentalist group from Afghanistan launches a retaliatory strike in response to our bombing of their country and we generalize that MUSLIMS are bad.

:confused:

Muqatil
30th April 04, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by Omar
I still can't figure out how anybody is linking 9/11 to Iraq. I was overseas when Bush launched his holy war against the infidels and I was like, WFT!?!?

Let's see:

America invades Iraq and Iraqis generalize that America is bad. Not so difficult to understand.

An extremest fundamentalist group from Afghanistan launches a retaliatory strike in response to our bombing of their country and we generalize that MUSLIMS are bad.

:confused:

The only people that are still linking Iraq to 9/11 are the illinformed. Most intelligent people understand that they did not have a part in it. Al Qaeda was actually at odds with the Hussein regime. They did try to have contact in the past but nothing came of it. As a soldier, I can't comment on what my beliefs or opinions are in public. As an anonymous person, I can say that I'm quite certain that there was a little bit of revenge there for what happened between Iraq and the former Bush Administration. It was about taking out another potential threat though. Hussein threatened to unbalance an already fucked up area. He had used WMDs in the past against his own people. How the fuck can anyone say that the place is not better off without him? ONly the ignorant or the pathetic people that think violence is NEVER an option. Sometimes you have to stand up to the badguys. Listen again, MOST Iraqis do not consider America or Americans to be bad. Most of them don't give a shit as long as they can go on with life as normal. A majority of them are happy that Hussein is gone thanks to us. A very SMALL minority are causing problems, a fair protion of them are not even from Iraq!

As far as Afghanistan goes, we did not bomb them for no reason. They never "retaliated" in response to us bombing them. We retaliated for their assistance in killing thousands of innocent civilians. Al Qaeda started this shit. Afghanistan(Taliban) chose to let the badguys hide in their country. That makes them part of the problem. Try to tell me that the vast majority of the population there is unhappy to see the Taliban leave. Go ahead, try!

No one except for the ignorant is judging all of Islam. I am an Arabic linguist. Part of my job is to learn about the culture to include Islam. What the fundamentalists have done to it is disgusting. It is no different than what people like Jim Jones did with Christianity. This is not about going to war with Islam, it is a war against extremists that happen to justify there actions under a twisted version of it.

I can't help it if we seem to be the only country in a very long time to stand up and say, " fuck you" to people that would do us harm. In todays PC world, everyone thinks that everything can be solved by talking. "You just don't understand eachother". Bullshit. When someone wants to kill you just because of who you are, you better take them out, because talking just makes you a sitting duck! Our actions have had positive effects. A country is no longer being held by a sadistic dictator. Lybia wised up and said, " hey we don't want nukes, yeah we helped blow up the pan am flight over scotland, come in and check us out". Why? BEcause they saw we weren't pussy footing around anymore. Most countries in the world play by set rules. The only ones that have anything to fear are the ones that would have our country, our people and our way of life destroyed. If cheese eating surrender monkies want to sit around and placate everyone, let them do it. We decided to make a stand against evil men that would harm anyone for not sharing their beliefs.

The Wastrel
30th April 04, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by CaptShady
Clinton drastically reduced our forces dip fuck

You do know when the drawdowns really occurred, right? And you do know why, right?

And do you also see why the claim that there were only 5 soldiers guarding 900 prisoners is bullshit, right?

The Wastrel
30th April 04, 07:31 PM
One of the soldiers facing court martial is Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick.

Frederick is charged with maltreatment for allegedly participating in and setting up a photo, and for posing in a photograph by sitting on top of a detainee. He is charged with an indecent act for observing one scene. He is also charged with assault for allegedly striking detainees – and ordering detainees to strike each other.

60 Minutes II talked with him by phone from Baghdad, where he is awaiting court martial.

Frederick told us he will plead not guilty, claiming the way the Army was running the prison led to the abuse of prisoners.

“We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things...like rules and regulations,” says Frederick. “And it just wasn't happening."

Six months before he faced a court martial, Frederick sent home a video diary of his trip across the country. Frederick, a reservist, said he was proud to serve in Iraq. He seemed particularly well-suited for the job at Abu Ghraib. He’s a corrections officer at a Virginia prison, whose warden described Frederick to us as “one of the best.”

Frederick says Americans came into the prison: “We had military intelligence, we had all kinds of other government agencies, FBI, CIA ... All those that I didn't even know or recognize."

Frederick's letters and email messages home also offer clues to problems at the prison. He wrote that he was helping the interrogators:

"Military intelligence has encouraged and told us 'Great job.' "

"They usually don't allow others to watch them interrogate. But since they like the way I run the prison, they have made an exception."

"We help getting them to talk with the way we handle them. ... We've had a very high rate with our style of getting them to break. They usually end up breaking within hours."


This guy is clearly psychotic, and a liar. At E-6 he's been briefed REPEATEDLY about the Geneva Conventions. And he has an obligation to DISOBEY any orders he is given that are not lawful.

Frankly, it sounds like he was probably one of the ranking soldiers present, and he's going to get nailed. He'll say whatever he has to.

They should string these fuckers up. Like Pistol in Henry V.

The Wastrel
30th April 04, 07:34 PM
Shady,
You're a fucking idiot. And an apologist for disgusting behavior. I guarantee you that the Army is going to drop the goddamn hammer on these guys. Now quit justifying what they did.

For your information, POW's ARE basically innocent. READ THE FUCKING CONVENTION!

CaptShady
30th April 04, 08:21 PM
Whatever fuck wad. Try engaging in debate with facts and comments instead of acting like a stupid fuck kid going "i know something but i'm not gonna tell". You're a fucking moron. Don't shit where you eat, that was just a South Park episode, not reality. Stupid fucking punk assed little bitch!

Go to NYC and spout your rhetoric about the Al Qaeda POW's being innocent. Your little pussy would be raped 10 ways to sunday and you'd be begging for your mommy like pussy bitch with a skinned knee.

The Wastrel
30th April 04, 08:34 PM
You want me to spoonfeed you the facts because you don't know them?

Fact 1: Massive military drawdowns began under Bush I as a result of what came to be called the "Peace Dividend".

Fact 2: From one reserve unit at Abu Ghraib ALONE 14 people are being charged. So how were there only five present?


You do understand that none of the guys in these photos were in Al-Qaeda?

http://pic6.picturetrail.com/VOL164/1026682/1918165/52499558.jpg

http://pic6.picturetrail.com/VOL164/1026682/1918165/52499552.jpg

http://pic6.picturetrail.com/VOL164/1026682/1918165/52499559.jpg

Now, why don't you shut your fucking mouth and quit acting like you speak for the military. Or go sign up for it hillbilly if you know so much.

Have you managed to plow through the Geneva Conventions yet? The ones I had to read when I was in BASIC TRAINING?

How can you buy that idiot's bullshit story that he didn't have training? And yet you claim to be such a sceptic about the media? Fucking joker.

The Wastrel
30th April 04, 08:37 PM
Those soldiers are an absolute disgrace. You can hang them for all I care. They smeared me, my brother in Afghanistan, some of my best friends who fought in the invasion of Baghdad, Phrost, Asia, Vargas, and every other serviceman who manages to do their job without sexually abusing prisoners.

You're just a fat-ass Texan, deplorably ignorant knee-jerking loudmouth racist piece of garbage. If those were American POWs you'd be fucking howling. Hypocrite.

punchingdummy
30th April 04, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by Omar
I was overseas when Bush launched his holy war against the infidels and I was like, WFT!?!?


What are you talking about?

"America invades Iraq and Iraqis generalize that America is bad. Not so difficult to understand."

Actually, Iraqi's generalized about the US being bad before the invasion. Then the US invaded Iraq and (according to atleast one poll last week) a majority of Iraqi's think they are better off. They still dislike the US and want their country back. The US wants to give them their country back as soon as a reasonable level of stability is achieved.


"An extremest fundamentalist group from Afghanistan launches a retaliatory strike in response to our bombing of their country and we generalize that MUSLIMS are bad"

Again, please explain what you are talking about?

Osiris
30th April 04, 08:54 PM
How the fuck did 9/11 come up?

punchingdummy
30th April 04, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by The Wastrel
Those soldiers are an absolute disgrace. You can hang them for all I care. They smeared me, my brother in Afghanistan, some of my best friends who fought in the invasion of Baghdad, Phrost, Asia, Vargas, and every other serviceman who manages to do their job without sexually abusing prisoners.

Absolutely agree.

Let's throw a little more fodder into this thread:

I'm aware of three incidents involving alleged abuse against EPWs. Two involved Army reservists, and the other Marine reservists (although the facts in the case of the Marines seem to indicate they may be innocent). The common denominator is that the accused are all reservists, and in at least two situations the reservists were not MPs. It is entirely plausible that these troops have not received adequate EPW training. However, you don't need EPW training to figure out that humiliating and abusing naked prisoners is simply wrong.

So here's my question: Is there an issue with reservists not being adequately prepared for missions outside their MOS?

The Wastrel
30th April 04, 09:03 PM
I think there's a general discipline and comportment issue. Chip Fredrick (no longer SSG in my book) was a prison correctional officer. How can he claim he didn't know what he is doing? Fact is, a lot of these guys are just assbags.

And I fucking boil when some whacked out Dittohead accuses me of being a lefty because I call these people a disgrace to the uniform. This has nothing to do with politics.

Sexually abusing prisoners and posing for mugshots is not part of anyone's duty.

punchingdummy
30th April 04, 09:09 PM
Unfortunately, it will be others who get kidnapped or taken prisoner in action who will suffer because of these few idiots.

The Wastrel
30th April 04, 09:21 PM
Exactly, as well as the long-term image of the American soldier/marine/sailor/airman.

CaptShady
30th April 04, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by The Wastrel
Those soldiers are an absolute disgrace. You can hang them for all I care. They smeared me, my brother in Afghanistan, some of my best friends who fought in the invasion of Baghdad, Phrost, Asia, Vargas, and every other serviceman who manages to do their job without sexually abusing prisoners.

You're just a fat-ass Texan, deplorably ignorant knee-jerking loudmouth racist piece of garbage. If those were American POWs you'd be fucking howling. Hypocrite.

Howling? No, I'd AGAIN be saying fuck the GC, cut their balls off. You know abso FUCKING lutely nothing about me mother fucker. You're just like a liberal cunt who's quick to shout "racist" because someone's not preciously politically correct. NOT ONCE, you scumbag piece of mother fucking shit did I say the soldiers were RIGHT in their actions, you skull fuck!

All you can do is threaten a ban when someone calls you on your ignoramous bullshit pussy posts. STFU and let the adults talk here, okay?


Originally posted by The Wastrel
You want me to spoonfeed you the facts because you don't know them?

Fact 1: Massive military drawdowns began under Bush I as a result of what came to be called the "Peace Dividend".


BULLSHIT. The true fact is documented and out there for everyone to read. Stupid fuck liberals like you were praising Clinton for an over 50% cut down in our nation's military, and over 10% closings of military bases. The draft dodging fuck could care less about our nation's defenses.


Originally posted by The Wastrel
Fact 2: From one reserve unit at Abu Ghraib ALONE 14 people are being charged. So how were there only five present?

Hey dumbass, have you ever heard of troop rotations? Jesus, you're a fucking moron. I bet your mom cries every time she remembers taking that load from your daddy instead of just swallowing it like she did for her regular customers.


Originally posted by The Wastrel
You do understand that none of the guys in these photos were in Al-Qaeda?


And you do understand that you said, and I quote, "For your information, POW's ARE basically innocent. READ THE FUCKING CONVENTION!"

I was talking about mindset. I said it over and over you cum dripping prison fag. How many times do I have to say it before it finally goes through the inches of jizz in your ears before you finally understand?


Originally posted by The Wastrel
Now, why don't you shut your fucking mouth and quit acting like you speak for the military. Or go sign up for it hillbilly if you know so much.

3rd Bat I Co. 3007 Paris Island

MAW H&MS 13 Cherry Point.

MORE PROOF YOU KNOW DICK ABOUT ME BUT LIKE TO START SHIT WITH YOUR FUCKING KEYBOARD. The rest here were engaged in a heated debate. You came out exposing the enlarged anus that you are because you THINK you know so much and others know so little.


Originally posted by The Wastrel
Have you managed to plow through the Geneva Conventions yet? The ones I had to read when I was in BASIC TRAINING?

You mean like every other swinging dick and tit that's ever been in the military? You're not special just because your DI said "read this". :rolleyes:


Originally posted by The Wastrel
How can you buy that idiot's bullshit story that he didn't have training? And yet you claim to be such a sceptic about the media? Fucking joker.

It was from a foreign periodical, they typically report the facts better, and more unbiased. I'm a skeptic about the U.S. media and dick sucking fucks like yourself spreading bullshit as facts, just to push their political agenda.

Go fuck yourself, you piece of shit cunt. Aren't you late for your job at the glory hole?

The Wastrel
30th April 04, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by CaptShady
Howling? No, I'd AGAIN be saying fuck the GC, cut their balls off. You know abso FUCKING lutely nothing about me mother fucker. You're just like a liberal cunt who's quick to shout "racist" because someone's not preciously politically correct. NOT ONCE, you scumbag piece of mother fucking shit did I say the soldiers were RIGHT in their actions, you skull fuck!

All you can do is threaten a ban when someone calls you on your ignoramous bullshit pussy posts. STFU and let the adults talk here, okay?

I didn't threaten a ban.




BULLSHIT. The true fact is documented and out there for everyone to read. Stupid fuck liberals like you were praising Clinton for an over 50% cut down in our nation's military, and over 10% closings of military bases. The draft dodging fuck could care less about our nation's defenses.

Right retard. Why don't you cite this fact? And where do you get the idea I supported cuts?




Hey dumbass, have you ever heard of troop rotations? Jesus, you're a fucking moron. I bet your mom cries every time she remembers taking that load from your daddy instead of just swallowing it like she did for her regular customers.

Are you claiming that all 14 involved were in three separate rotations of five soldiers each?

I seriously can't believe you were in the Marines.




And you do understand that you said, and I quote, "For your information, POW's ARE basically innocent. READ THE FUCKING CONVENTION!"

I was talking about mindset. I said it over and over you cum dripping prison fag. How many times do I have to say it before it finally goes through the inches of jizz in your ears before you finally understand?

You're talking about "mindset"? What is that supposed to mean?

If you know the convention, you know that POWs are not criminals.




3rd Bat I Co. 3007 Paris Island

MAW H&MS 13 Cherry Point.

MORE PROOF YOU KNOW DICK ABOUT ME BUT LIKE TO START SHIT WITH YOUR FUCKING KEYBOARD. The rest here were engaged in a heated debate. You came out exposing the enlarged anus that you are because you THINK you know so much and others know so little.

The fact that you know little doesn't need me shoving it into the light. And I don't believe you. You got Paris Island from the Billy Joel song.




You mean like every other swinging dick and tit that's ever been in the military? You're not special just because your DI said "read this". :rolleyes:

You're the moron who believed the guy who claimed he had "no training". So basically, you're just admitting that I'm right.




It was from a foreign periodical, they typically report the facts better, and more unbiased. I'm a skeptic about the U.S. media and dick sucking fucks like yourself spreading bullshit as facts, just to push their political agenda.

Wait...his statements were made by a foreign news organ? You're...confused Shady. Deeply.

By the way...What's my political agenda? Because I seem to have forgotten it.

The Wastrel
30th April 04, 10:43 PM
If you were a Marine, I hope you're not anymore. After reading through more of your crap I assure you, you're a disgrace. You would have been the first one to whip out the camera.

The Wastrel
30th April 04, 11:14 PM
Actually...you know what...I'm out of line. You might have been a marine. I apologize. And I really can't characterize your service.

But....as one American fighting man to another....Dude...this is sick shit. American soldiers aren't supposed to strip prisoners and play B&D games!

People excusing and justifying this crap just makes us look bad.

You and I both know that these idiots are just some fucking retarded assbags. There is no way to justify what they did.

Throw 'em in Leavenworth.

dumas
30th April 04, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by The Wastrel
Actually...you know what...I'm out of line. You might have been a marine. I apologize. And I really can't characterize your service.

But....as one American fighting man to another....Dude...this is sick shit. American soldiers aren't supposed to strip prisoners and play B&D games!

People excusing and justifying this crap just makes us look bad.

You and I both know that these idiots are just some fucking retarded assbags. There is no way to justify what they did.

Throw 'em in Leavenworth.

Ive read and reread and I cant think of one place I read where "Shady" said it was justified or excused...but like most commie...I mean liberal tools your so busy spouting your PC rhetoric from your michael moore book that you can't stop and read what was actually written.

CaptShady
30th April 04, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by The Wastrel
But....as one American fighting man to another....Dude...this is sick shit. American soldiers aren't supposed to strip prisoners and play B&D games!

People excusing and justifying this crap just makes us look bad.

You and I both know that these idiots are just some fucking retarded assbags. There is no way to justify what they did.

Throw 'em in Leavenworth.

I don't disagree.

DJeter1234
30th April 04, 11:46 PM
I don't understand. Is the Geneva convention PC rhetoric?

capt didn't say that anything was justified. but it seems as if he did generalize that POW's are guilty of anti-american activities. If they "deserve to die", then, to some people, it iwould be less of a crime.

And dumas, yes, we all are communists. you got us. we all generalize with PC rhetoric.. All of us. Generalize.

Samuel Browning
30th April 04, 11:56 PM
"Go to NYC and spout your rhetoric about the Al Qaeda POW's being innocent. Your little pussy would be raped 10 ways to sunday and you'd be begging for your mommy like pussy bitch with a skinned knee."

First we don't know every one in this prison was Al Qaeda and secondly in Iraq the U.S. army and marines detain some people on the basis of suspicion and try to sort out the facts later, it would be impossible for them to be right 100% of the time, so assuming every Iraqi in that prison is rightfullly there is a stretch. Thats what interrogation is for, collecting such information, not posing said prisoners for naked pictures.

As close as I can understand it Shady you are not denying that what these servicemen have probably done is wrong, but you are accusing WCL and the Wastral of being anti-american and making dumb comments based on liberal bias. I have not seen WCL say any thing that I thought was generally unamerican, and the Wastral's comments have been well reasoned and to the point. You one the otherhand seem to be undergoing some personal contest to see how many personal insults you can throw at them. Why the meltdown on your part?

CaptShady
1st May 04, 12:08 AM
*sigh* I was gonna leave this alone since we were all warm and fuzzy, but you asked politely so here goes ...


Originally posted by Samuel Browning
First we don't know every one in this prison was Al Qaeda and secondly in Iraq the U.S. army and marines detain some people on the basis of suspicion and try to sort out the facts later, it would be impossible for them to be right 100% of the time, so assuming every Iraqi in that prison is rightfullly there is a stretch.

No .. I don't believe that ANY Iraqi is a member of Al Qaeda. I was commenting on W's statement that all POW's are innocent, according to the G.C. We DO have a POW camp from Afghanistan full of Al Qaeda. I hope I'm explaining this right, because going by the flow of things today, I don't make myself clear when I write.



Originally posted by Samuel Browning
As close as I can understand it Shady you are not denying that what these servicemen have probably done is wrong, but you are accusing WCL and the Wastral of being anti-american and making dumb comments based on liberal bias. I have not seen WCL say any thing that I thought was generally unamerican, and the Wastral's comments have been well reasoned and to the point. You one the otherhand seem to be undergoing some personal contest to see how many personal insults you can throw at them. Why the meltdown on your part?

I was accusing WCL, not Wastrel. As much as I dislike the liberal agenda, I don't believe liberals are "anti American" and I hate it when redneck conservatives jump to place that label, just as much as I hate when libs jump to throw the racist label.

I explained my labeling of WCL as left with only that conclusion, and that the debate between he and I got heated. Wastrel's comments WERE well reasoned for the most part .. but look back again, he started them with something like "you're a fucking idiot" or some hostile opening. Mabye it was just the timing of my reading it, but yeah, I lashed out.

The Wastrel
1st May 04, 01:41 AM
No .. I don't believe that ANY Iraqi is a member of Al Qaeda. I was commenting on W's statement that all POW's are innocent, according to the G.C. We DO have a POW camp from Afghanistan full of Al Qaeda. I hope I'm explaining this right, because going by the flow of things today, I don't make myself clear when I write.

Actually Shady, it is vital to the Bush admin's position that those held in Guantanamo are "battlefield detainees" and specifically NOT POWs.

I did lash out. I hadn't read everything you said. But still. Nobody needs to pretend there is any defensible position for this.

I can't stand these people being taken for soldiers, or being defended as soldiers.

dumas,
You're...stupid. Why don't you do a search on this forum to see what I have to say about Michael Moore?

dumas
1st May 04, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by The Wastrel

dumas,
You're...stupid. Why don't you do a search on this forum to see what I have to say about Michael Moore?

And your still a tool ;) I won't loose any sleep over it

The Wastrel
1st May 04, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Muqatil
Wow, heated debate!

As it was pointed out already, the prisoners are not your average joe off of the street. Most of them have ties to the old Iraqi military, regime or current insurgents. Most of the insurgents are NOT disgruntled citizens. They are former Hussein loyalists and numerous foreign terrorists. I'm sure there are some people that we have turned against us in the greater population, but most Iraqis are just happy to get on with life.

The Shi'ite mindset is not what started any of this on 11 September. it was Islamic Fundamentalism. It was a perversion of an entire religion.

As an Army Interrogator, I can tell you that physical coercion is never condoned or practiced. This was a rare case that the media will blow out of proportion to make it seem worse than it is. The folks guilty of it should be dishonorably discharged and imprisoned. It is true that we don't know all of the info about the situations, however, that is no excuse. There were no riots in the prison. If there had been, the prisoners would have been put under control and we would have heard about that also. the guards are able to use some physical contact to enforce certain things. As in telling a prisoner to move and he ignores the instruction, you move him. Prisoners will be yelled at if it is needed, but NEVER physically abused. The SSG that claimed he never was trained or had a chance to read regs is full of shit. he is a corrections officer. He knows how you treat prisoners. Every soldier that deals with EPWs(enemy prisoners of war) knows about their rights. The article never says what his MOS is, but he is probably either and MP or a CO, which means he had the training, reservist or active. The article also makes a point of saying that the civilian contractor admitted to breaking a few tables on accident, as if this is horrendous. So the fuck what?! It's called getting attention. THey are EPWs. Your job is to question them for valuable info. You will make them uneasy, or make them comfortable depending on the person. You may share a cig and some coffee while discussing what type of tits you like, or you may be screaming and yelling while throwing shit every where. the job is not fun, nor pretty. It is a job that has to be done though. No bleeding heart pansies need apply. War is never pretty. Some things, like from this story, are inexcusable though.

I'm glad we have a 97E around to clear up the bullshit in this story.

Muqatil
1st May 04, 01:31 PM
Most welcome, dude.

punchingdummy
3rd May 04, 09:54 AM
Attached is part of an AP article posted on MSNBC today. My question is how serious is the highest level of administrative reprimand? What does that really mean for those found guilty?

************************************************** ****************

WASHINGTON - Seven U.S. soldiers have been reprimanded in connection with the alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners carried out by guards at Baghdad’s notorious Abu Ghraib prison, a senior military official said on Monday.

On the orders of Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, commander of U.S. forces in Iraq, six of the soldiers — all officers and noncommissioned officers — have received the most severe level of administrative reprimand in the U.S. military, the official said on condition of anonymity.

Balloonknot
3rd May 04, 01:09 PM
It's all Bush's fault damn it! What do we expect anyway? We've got 18 year old hill-billy's who've enlisted to go kill some critters. The kids today grew up on destructive video games, moronic rappers, and have sport hero's like Koby Bryant and that other nitwit who shot the limo-driver. No wonder!! I won't even mention the mishandling of this whole military action.

WingChun Lawyer
3rd May 04, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Balloonknot
It's all Bush's fault damn it! What do we expect anyway? We've got 18 year old hill-billy's who've enlisted to go kill some critters. The kids today grew up on destructive video games, moronic rappers, and have sport hero's like Koby Bryant and that other nitwit who shot the limo-driver. No wonder!! I won't even mention the mishandling of this whole military action.

Balloon, I don´t think it is fair to generalize. I may be too optimistic in your opinion, but I believe most of those soldiers are just joe averages who want to get home in one piece.

The fact that their orders include going to Iraq is not, IMHO, their fault (unless they voted for Bush).

Balloonknot
3rd May 04, 03:03 PM
Although I do appreciate anybody who serves our country with honor, (by the way, with honor means not making your prisoners perform oral sex and spread their butt cheeks for your photo amusement) I get a bit nervous with the quality of today's soldiers. Not everyone mind you, just the young bucks who are looking to kill! It's true it's not their fault for being there but damn, where's the honor?

On another note, I'm still trying to find out why we even attacked Iraq in the first place. Fifteen out of 17 9/11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia. I still haven't heard a good answer for that one. The best they can come up with is.... Well, isn't Iraq better off without Saddam? Speaking of Saddam, WHAT THE FUKK IS UP WITH HIM????? We haven't heard a single word about him. Something is starting to smell out right fishy here. This whole damn war is a clusterfukk!

Oh yeah, I forgot, the war is over. Mr Bush declared us the winner right?? In my opinion, we lost this war and it's only going to get worse. I hope not, but I'm just not that optimistic! I think it's time to rail in these cowboys folks, were starting to get saddleburns!!! Yee HAWWWW!!!

CaptShady
3rd May 04, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by Balloonknot
On another note, I'm still trying to find out why we even attacked Iraq in the first place. Fifteen out of 17 9/11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia. I still haven't heard a good answer for that one. The best they can come up with is.... Well, isn't Iraq better off without Saddam? Speaking of Saddam, WHAT THE FUKK IS UP WITH HIM????? We haven't heard a single word about him. Something is starting to smell out right fishy here. This whole damn war is a clusterfukk!

Well remember, the nation was for the "attack on terror" when Bush first started wars. And Saddam was just days away from having a ICBM launched at us. I was like "YEAH go get them all! If they're terrorists, GET 'EM!!!". Then we went after an odd choice of countries. Hell, Korea stepped up and said "that's right bitches! We got us a nuke! Do something about it, I'm Korea James, Bitch!" .. what'd we do about it? JACK SQUAT!! :mad:



Originally posted by Balloonknot
Oh yeah, I forgot, the war is over. Mr Bush declared us the winner right?? In my opinion, we lost this war and it's only going to get worse. I hope not, but I'm just not that optimistic! I think it's time to rail in these cowboys folks, were starting to get saddleburns!!! Yee HAWWWW!!!

I totally agree! The part where we disagree is the hard part. I think Kerry will milk the ever lovin' shit out of that war, and use it to promote HIMSELF, and to line his own pockets. Bush has already done that, he has someother motive (like winning the election) in mind, that's why they're not coming home.

Deadpan Scientist
3rd May 04, 03:30 PM
Every generation wants to "Prove itself"

WingChun Lawyer
3rd May 04, 03:32 PM
"Speaking of Saddam, WHAT THE FUKK IS UP WITH HIM????? We haven't heard a single word about him. Something is starting to smell out right fishy here. This whole damn war is a clusterfukk!"

Well, they did bring over one of Saddam´s ex generals to take control of the situation in Fallujah...using a bunch of iraqi soldiers, whose loyalty (not to mention political allegiance and background) should remain unquestioned (i.e. I bet they are all probably ex baath).

Fishy indeed.

punchingdummy
4th May 04, 11:37 AM
Posted today on MSNBC.com

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The following are some of the key excerpts from the report prepared by Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba on alleged abuse of prisoners by members of the 800th Military Police Brigade at the Abu Ghraib Prison in Baghdad. The report was ordered by Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, commander of Joint Task Force-7, the senior U.S. military official in Iraq, following persistent allegations of human rights abuses at the prison.

************************************************** **
B)etween October and December 2003, at the Abu Ghraib Confinement Facility (BCCF), numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees. This systemic and illegal abuse of detainees was intentionally perpetrated byseveral members of the military police guard force (372nd Military Police Company, 320thMilitary Police Battalion, 800th MP Brigade), in Tier (section) 1-A of the Abu Ghraib Prison (BCCF).

In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses

a. Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;

b. Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;

c. Pouring cold water on naked detainees;

d. Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;

e. Threatening male detainees with rape;

f. Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;

g. Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

h. Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.


(T)he intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:

a. Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;

b. Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;

c. Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;

d. Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;

e. Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear;

f. Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;

g. Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;

h. Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;

i. Writing “I am a Rapest” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;

j. Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;

k. A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;

l. Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;

m. Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.


These findings are amply supported by written confessions provided by several of the suspects, written statements provided by detainees, and witness statements.

The various detention facilities operated by the 800th MP Brigade have routinely held persons brought to them by Other Government Agencies (OGAs) without accounting for them, knowing their identities, or even the reason for their detention. The Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC) at Abu Ghraib called these detainees “ghost detainees.” On at least one occasion, the 320th MP Battalion at Abu Ghraib held a handful of “ghost detainees” (6-8) for OGAs that they moved around within the facility to hide them from a visiting International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) survey team. This maneuver was deceptive, contrary to Army Doctrine, and in violation of international law.

Osiris
4th May 04, 11:44 AM
Why are they so gay?

WingChun Lawyer
4th May 04, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by punchingdummy

The various detention facilities operated by the 800th MP Brigade have routinely held persons brought to them by Other Government Agencies (OGAs) without accounting for them, knowing their identities, or even the reason for their detention. The Joint Interrogation and Debriefing Center (JIDC) at Abu Ghraib called these detainees “ghost detainees.” On at least one occasion, the 320th MP Battalion at Abu Ghraib held a handful of “ghost detainees” (6-8) for OGAs that they moved around within the facility to hide them from a visiting International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) survey team. This maneuver was deceptive, contrary to Army Doctrine, and in violation of international law.

"Ghost detainees" indeed. No one knows why they are there, no one knows where they are being held, no one knows who they actually are - typical procedure in a military dictatorship.

If this sort of practice is common, no wonder the iraqis are not on the best of terms with the USA.

Gelid Light
5th May 04, 12:32 AM
Finally perhaps the American citizenry will accept the truth: war is a war crime.

Muqatil
5th May 04, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by Gelid Light
Finally perhaps the American citizenry will accept the truth: war is a war crime.

Excuse me for saying so, but that was one of the most asinine statements I have ever read. War is an aggressive form of diplomacy. It is undertaken to accomplish diplomatic/political roles that are unable to be solved by less direct actions. Rules and laws were established for war because we realized that it would always be an option when negotiations don't work. It is a failure of diplomacy, yes, but just one more tool. It is never a good thing. The hippy mentality of "give peace a chance" and "make love not war" are ridiculous. Sometimes you have to stand up and fight back. SOmetimes you have to fight for those that can't. War is a war crime???? Stupidity and naivete of reality should be a crime.

WingChun Lawyer
5th May 04, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by Gelid Light
Finally perhaps the American citizenry will accept the truth: war is a war crime.

A typical phrase by a peace loving nutcase, utterly devoid of meaning. War is something that happens, usually for stupid and selfish reasons, but people may go to war for noble reasons as well.

I never heard anyone complaining about the USA´s involvement in WW2.

By the way, being a peace lover doesn´t mean you have to be a nutcase.

WingChun Lawyer
13th May 04, 08:15 AM
Well, it seems that there are worst pictures than the ones already on the media, at least according to the (brazilian) newspaper I read today (members of the senate saw those pictures in a private meeting). And it seems that there are indeed pictures of prisoners being sodomized by chemical lamps, and worse.

Apparently, the US government is debating on whether to allow the press access to those pictures or not. I would like to ask a question to the US lawyers: is it possible for the government to keep documents (in this case, pictures) from the media? On what grounds?

Ronin
13th May 04, 08:20 AM
There are pics and videos of rape and torture that were shown to the US senate.
The excrement has hit the Air Conditioner.

WingChun Lawyer
13th May 04, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by ronin69
There are pics and videos of rape and torture that were shown to the US senate.
The excrement has hit the Air Conditioner.

Indeed. But I would like to know if it is really possible for the government to keep those pictures from the press, and if so, on what grounds, and in what circunstances.

Ronin
13th May 04, 08:23 AM
They are available under the many "freedom of information acts".

WingChun Lawyer
13th May 04, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by ronin69
They are available under the many "freedom of information acts".

Are you sure about that? The newspaper said very clearly that the government had last word on that (although, of course, I trust journalists even less than I trust other lawyers).

Ronin
13th May 04, 08:27 AM
They are available, WHEN is another matter and how much is censored is yet to be determined.

WingChun Lawyer
13th May 04, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by ronin69
They are available, WHEN is another matter and how much is censored is yet to be determined.

So, it IS possible for the US government to censor some of those documents? Are you sure about that? I don´t doubt your word, but, AFAIK, this is not your area.

Ronin
13th May 04, 08:49 AM
No its not my area, just goining on what I have be told...

punchingdummy
13th May 04, 09:44 AM
I believe that they are not required to make additonal photos public if they are evidence in an ongoing criminal investigation. Beyond that, I'm not sure they are required to relaease crime scene photos to the general public, or if so under what circumstances.

WingChun Lawyer
13th May 04, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by punchingdummy
I believe that they are not required to make additonal photos public if they are evidence in an ongoing criminal investigation. Beyond that, I'm not sure they are required to relaease crime scene photos to the general public, or if so under what circumstances.

Hm, that would require some research into the nature of "crime" and "criminal investigation", as opposed to public interest and freedom of speech and information. I would rather wait for Mr. Mantis´ or S. Browning´s opinion on this, but I doubt there is an easy answer for that question.